can we get raid-wide buffs for the next expansion?

[Davngr1]

<p> with the dirge mythical fixed at last there won't be anyone complaining about all the "effort" they put into their buff class.</p> <p>  raid wide buffs would eliminate the need for 8 bards and chanters so there would be room for a few more different classes.  with beastlords making their appearance in the eq2, having those extra raid slots wonders for the fun factor.</p> <p> after all with a new class amist another class will have to be replaced in raid.    raidwide buffs would mean that a class that is all ready doubly represented would get replaced.</p>

[Crismorn]

<p>Content would have to reflect 28 man raids, but sounds like a good idea.</p>

[Koleg]

<p>Obvious Troll post ... or someone never heard about guild hall signets ... either way its a failed attempt and should be part of the lingering /ragequit Dirge thread(s).</p>

[Davngr1]

<p>how would guild hall signets mean anything to this change?</p><p>  it's time for raid wide buffs who cares if content has to be adjusted, who cares if people can't just roll a needed class and /afk /buffbot.  </p><p> specialy now that there will be yet another class for non-buff/healer classes to fight for spots with.</p>

[Fitz]

Boring idea.

[Felshades]

<p>Someone's just mad their dirges all quit so he doesn't want to have to replace them to make progress.</p>

[Davngr1]

<p><cite>Fitz wrote:</cite></p><blockquote>Boring idea.</blockquote><p> how is it boring?</p><p>  but you know what IS boring?    not being able to raid or having to raid half dunce with no mana or the right buffs because you can't find the right classes.</p><p> you know what else is REALLY REALLY REALLY BOOOOORRRIIIINNNNGGG???</p><p> having to play a buff clalss because the raid needs NOT because you want to..</p> <p><cite>Nadirah@Crushbone wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Someone's just mad their dirges all quit so he doesn't want to have to replace them to make progress.</p></blockquote><p>  lol..   dirges are a dime a dozen since it's the coined easy mode class to get raid/group spots with, everyone and their one armed grandmother plays a dirge or has an alt dirge.</p><p>  this has been an issue since EoF and has nothing to do with all the dirge cry baby post..  </p><p> on the other hand it has EVERYTHING to do with there being yet ANOTHER dps class to fight for limited spots in raid with.</p>

[Koleg]

<p>You must be talking about an obvious dislike for the Beastlord class then.... what makes you think the Beastlords won't come with raid wide buffs?  The Summoners and SK's already have raid-wide buffs along with a few others...</p><p>Your idea is still unclear ...</p>

[Fitz]

I fail to see how having to sacrifice one class for another is a bad thing. You currently have to invest at least some time to optimize group setup. Actually, wait. Having bards with all raid wide buffs is totally amazing and easy button. While we're at it, let's just make all group heals and cures raid-wide so we don't have to think about healers either. Then we can have more beastlords. Actually, chanters should be able to flow raid-wide too so we only need one or two. and let's give tanks a passive auto-rescue. Wanna join my raid? 1 tank, 2 healers, 2 chanters, 2 bards, and 17 beastlords.

[Geothe]

<p><cite>Nadirah@Crushbone wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Someone's just mad their dirges all quit so he doesn't want to have to replace them to make progress.</p></blockquote><p>Eh,I wouldn't say that.Its more of the fact that with current game mechanics, it pretty much requires 4 bards and 4 chanters in a raid for efficient DPS.  That is messed up with 1/6th of the classes in the game make up 1/3rd of the raid slots.  And it is that way pureful because of the buffs that they provide.  Heck at this point i'd bet that over half of the people that play those classes in raid do so entire because they HAVE to play that class, or not raid at all.  It would be much better overall if raids could gain the same amount of buffs they do now with 1 of each in raid, and then those that play because they "have to" could instead maybe play a class they would actually enjoy.</p><p>/shrugs.</p><p>Would be nice if they'd spend some time allowing somethign like that, but we all know that will never happen.Currently they cant even keep up with stuff as is.  ah wel.</p>

[Starack]

The only way to break min/max is to get rid of class dependency entirely and turn every class into the same thing essentially, max 'what ever your role is' self buffed. Then you can run raids with any old class combination and just focus on picking the good players. It would be boring though and I am sure it would cause a whole bunch more to quit if they did, seeing how well progression has been handled this expansion so far. Then again the lines are blurry these days it may well happen anyway because they keep stretching the mechanics far beyond breaking point of any flavor for old style class definitions, meaning future gear will be so far ahead of class buffs, that the buffer classes will be on the scrap heap from being needed for buffs perspective.

[Rainmare]

<p>put me in the hat for the Raid wide chanter/bard buffs. and you can also put me in that group that was told 'play this class for raids or hit the bricks'. I HATED being a dirge. despised it. but it was either play the stupid thing, or not get to raid. I'd love it if the buffs were made raidwide so you only needed 1 dirge, 1 troubie, 1 illy, 1 coercer. then you can bring along those extra tanks, or extra mages or scouts without 'screwing' your dps/hps/mana over.</p>

[Bruener]

<p>Before DoV I was in favor of this</p><p>However now all it would mean is the spots would default to T1 DPS classes with how OP'd their DPS is.</p>

[Besual]

<p>Let us think about this for 1 sec:</p><p>Let us assume we have 3 dirges in the raid.</p><p>Now: 3x VC for 6 people. Then: 3x VC for 24 people. Effect: x4.</p><p>Now: BC for 3 toons. Then: BC for 24 people. Effect: x8.</p><p>Well, the second is over but I don't have to continue, do I?</p>

[Geothe]

<p><cite>Besual wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Let us think about this for 1 sec:</p><p>Let us assume we have 3 dirges in the raid.</p><p>Now: 3x VC for 6 people. Then: 3x VC for 24 people. Effect: x4.</p><p>Now: BC for 3 toons. Then: BC for 24 people. Effect: x8.</p><p>Well, the second is over but I don't have to continue, do I?</p></blockquote><p>Not quite how things would work, heh.They attempted to pull off raid wide buffs in SF beta I believe it was.The approach they took was (using your BC example).  1 dirge could cast BC on 4 people in the raid... 1 person in each group.  However, every group had a cap of 1 BC present in the group.  So, you could have 1 dirge BC 1 person in 4 groups, or 2 dirges BCing 1 person in 2 groups each.  It wasn't allowing 2 dirges to equal 8 BCs in the raid.</p>

[Banditman]

<p>I'm not sure how this topic belongs in this forum, but honestly what we NEED is a new AA available to every single class:  MGB.  (That's Mass Group Buff for those who didn't EQ1).</p><p>Basically, you have a special ability called MGB.  You cast MGB first, and the next buff you cast is applied to the entire raid.  It's that simple, and it would be extremely effective in eliminating *some* of the overlap.</p><p>I don't think you can truly eliminate it all without scrapping the entire game and starting over, but MGB would help.</p>

[Silzin]

<p><cite>Banditman wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I'm not sure how this topic belongs in this forum, but honestly what we NEED is a new AA available to every single class:  MGB.  (That's Mass Group Buff for those who didn't EQ1).</p><p>Basically, you have a special ability called MGB.  You cast MGB first, and the next buff you cast is applied to the entire raid.  It's that simple, and it would be extremely effective in eliminating *some* of the overlap.</p><p>I don't think you can truly eliminate it all without scrapping the entire game and starting over, but MGB would help.</p></blockquote><p></p><p >Or instead of just the next one, when you select the AA MGB you also select one buff out of a list for your class that is from then on made a raid wide.  they may need to be selective for some classes like healers.  i can only imagine what would happen if a raid had all 6 healer types with their HP buffs set to MGB... <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

[Davngr1]

<p><cite>Koleg@Unrest_old wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>You must be talking about an obvious dislike for the Beastlord class then.... what makes you think the Beastlords won't come with raid wide buffs?  The Summoners and SK's already have raid-wide buffs along with a few others...</p><p>Your idea is still unclear ...</p></blockquote><p> not quite sure how you interpret my post in the way you do or how it's possible that this simple concept is STILL unclear to you but i can only assume it's because you don't have the game experience and thus arguing my point to you is about as effective as reasoning with a pet rock, no thanks. </p> <p><cite>Fitz wrote:</cite></p><blockquote>I fail to see how having to sacrifice one class for another is a bad thing. You currently have to invest at least some time to optimize group setup. Actually, wait. Having bards with all raid wide buffs is totally amazing and easy button. While we're at it, let's just make all group heals and cures raid-wide so we don't have to think about healers either. Then we can have more beastlords. Actually, chanters should be able to flow raid-wide too so we only need one or two. and let's give tanks a passive auto-rescue. Wanna join my raid? 1 tank, 2 healers, 2 chanters, 2 bards, and 17 beastlords.</blockquote><p>    how is putting finding 8 bards and chanters to put in the raid hard?  how is it fun?  how is it exciting?    what parallel world do you live in that you think this is grand?   oh yea..  you live in the parallel world of "i play utility" and like the fact i can easy button thru raids just cos i play a needed class.     </p><p> well sorry guy, you're not going to like my post because i'm against this practice and have been since the days of EoF when this practice first started taking root</p><p><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Before DoV I was in favor of this</p><p>However now all it would mean is the spots would default to T1 DPS classes with how OP'd their DPS is.</p></blockquote><p>  don't bet on it bro.    a lot of classes are bringing better and better buffs so representing each class would probably yield the most damage/raid stability.</p> <p><cite>Besual wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Let us think about this for 1 sec:</p><p>Let us assume we have 3 dirges in the raid.</p><p>Now: 3x VC for 6 people. Then: 3x VC for 24 people. Effect: x4.</p><p>Now: BC for 3 toons. Then: BC for 24 people. Effect: x8.</p><p>Well, the second is over but I don't have to continue, do I?</p></blockquote><p>there are ways to keep buffs from over lap.</p><p> it's much the same way that you can't put tc and ut on one caster or bc and ia on one melee..     again this is really simple and not quite sure why you would bring this up.</p><p> devs in SF had raid wide buffs working fine but cry baby utility classes (mostly easy mode myth dirges) cried constantly about loosing their "hard work" (raid spot) and other non-sense so devs scraped it.      the buff mechanics problems were minor, it was the cry cry cry whine whine that shut down raid wide buffs.</p><p><cite>Banditman wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I'm not sure how this topic belongs in this forum, but honestly what we NEED is a new AA available to every single class:  MGB.  (That's Mass Group Buff for those who didn't EQ1).</p><p>Basically, you have a special ability called MGB.  You cast MGB first, and the next buff you cast is applied to the entire raid.  It's that simple, and it would be extremely effective in eliminating *some* of the overlap.</p><p>I don't think you can truly eliminate it all without scrapping the entire game and starting over, but MGB would help.</p></blockquote><p>  this would hardly fix anything because some classes have better group buffs than others and thus would mostly likely be doubly represented anyway.</p>

[Davngr1]

<p><cite>Banditman wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I'm not sure how this topic belongs in this forum, but honestly what we NEED is a new AA available to every single class:  MGB.  (That's Mass Group Buff for those who didn't EQ1).</p><p>Basically, you have a special ability called MGB.  You cast MGB first, and the next buff you cast is applied to the entire raid.  It's that simple, and it would be extremely effective in eliminating *some* of the overlap.</p><p>I don't think you can truly eliminate it all without scrapping the entire game and starting over, but MGB would help.</p></blockquote><p> actually..</p><p> i take what i said in my other post back, this idea would probably work.</p><p>  it might take some brain storming but it could be possible.  maybe make it so that having one classes raid wide buffs voids the rest of that classes buffs from taking effect or something along those lines.</p><p>   next expansion there will be 25 classes and still only 24 spots in raid thus this issue really needs to be addressed.</p>

[Fitz]

Davngr, I don't play utility. I'm a conj. Your idea would generate the scenario that I gave you, minus the hyperbole. Every slot you free up would be a T1 dps class, guaranteed. You say folks would maximize class variety? I say absolutely not. You'd end up with more sorcs, summoners, and predators, which would, simply shift class emphasis to those three types. Variety? Having five locks in a group isn't variety, but you could pull it off with a raid-wide illy and troub. This game is built on requiring support classes. In order to accept your idea, the game mechanics would have to drastically change. Raid mob hp would be tripled simply because of the massive extra damage output, for example. Heroic content would remain the same, except that utility would be even harder to recruit because everyone started playing their t1 dps class. Still a boring idea. Bandit's idea is the only legitimate one, and even then mechanics would need to be adjusted when everyone suddenly gets 5k more hp, 30 more cm, and a bazillion more resists.

[Neskonlith]

<p><cite>Fitz wrote:</cite></p><blockquote> Your idea would generate the scenario that I gave you, minus the hyperbole. Every slot you free up would be a T1 dps class, guaranteed. You say folks would maximize class variety? I say absolutely not. You'd end up with more sorcs, summoners, and predators, which would, simply shift class emphasis to those three types. Variety? Having five locks in a group isn't variety, but you could pull it off with a raid-wide illy and troub. This game is built on requiring support classes. In order to accept your idea, the game mechanics would have to drastically change. Raid mob hp would be tripled simply because of the massive extra damage output, for example. Heroic content would remain the same, except that utility would be even harder to recruit because everyone started playing their t1 dps class. </blockquote><p>...until Adventurepack of Discovery, when raids switch over to 19 Beastlords!</p><p><img src="/eq2/images/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" /></p>

[Shotneedle]

<p>3 tank specced beastlords, 7 healer specced beastlords, 4 bards, 4 chanters, 6 dps specced beastlords.</p>

[Davngr1]

<p><cite>Fitz wrote:</cite></p><blockquote>Davngr, I don't play utility. I'm a conj. Your idea would generate the scenario that I gave you, minus the hyperbole. Every slot you free up would be a T1 dps class, guaranteed. You say folks would maximize class variety? I say absolutely not. You'd end up with more sorcs, summoners, and predators, which would, simply shift class emphasis to those three types. Variety? Having five locks in a group isn't variety, but you could pull it off with a raid-wide illy and troub. This game is built on requiring support classes. In order to accept your idea, the game mechanics would have to drastically change. Raid mob hp would be tripled simply because of the massive extra damage output, for example. Heroic content would remain the same, except that utility would be even harder to recruit because everyone started playing their t1 dps class. Still a boring idea. Bandit's idea is the only legitimate one, and even then mechanics would need to be adjusted when everyone suddenly gets 5k more hp, 30 more cm, and a bazillion more resists.</blockquote><p>it would only open 4 slots in the raid and why would you want a group with 5 warlocks when only one could receive UT and none of their group buffs would stack?</p> <p>   people have tons of alts in this game and the reason it's hard to find utility is because most people who play utility only do so because they are forced to by the raid force.</p> <p>  you just don't understand this game very well and blindly follow the drummers beat that was set by overpowered utility in eof.</p><p>  it's time to fix the problem and those 4 slots opened up by this change would probably go to classes that are currently not represented in raid.</p>

[Neskonlith]

<p><cite>Buffrat@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>3 tank specced beastlords, 7 healer specced beastlords, 4 bards, 4 chanters, 6 dps specced beastlords.</p></blockquote><p>If raid-wide buffs from the support classes, then you could run:</p><p>3 tank BL, 7 healer BL, 11 dps BL, 1 troub, 1 chanter, 1 NPC mercenary dirge</p><p><img src="/eq2/images/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" /></p>

[Davngr1]

<p>lol at people using the potential of beast lords being stupidoverpowerd to justify the ridiculous need to have 8 bards and chanters in raid.</p>

[Neskonlith]

<p>FoTM is <em>never</em> stupid OP.</p>

[Banditman]

<p>BL's are absolutely going to be stupid OP.  It's not even a question.  If they aren't then there will be absolutely no need for them.</p>

[Neskonlith]

<p>Might even see a new WW1st progression thread based on 24 BL raids only!</p>

[Fitz]

Davngr, in my example, five locks would do more damage than four locks and a troub, given that I said that an illy and a troub were already in the raid. And, lol at the idea that giving one lock UT would be better than adding another lock.... Who doesn't understand mechanics again? To any raid force with a brain, those 4 classes would be T1 dps, and nothing else. Is that your idea of variety?

[Fitz]

Edit (cuz my phone can't edit) to advice post: Misread your statement davngr. All i meant by the 5 locks statement is that all slots you free up will be dps. You could have a lock in each group (for argument's sake) since troub, illy, coercer, and dirge buffs would be raid wide.

[Davngr1]

<p>so why would it have to be 4 locks?</p> <p> why couldn't it be a necro, a wiz, a ranger and maybe a pally or zerk for the raidwide buffs or group buffs?</p> <p> sure the locks would bring the most damage for aoe fights but are there no non-aoe encounters?   </p> <p> or maybe you're just mistaking one player for game mechanics?     because just because you have a lock that does insane damage does not mean you will find another 4 that will do the same.  </p> <p> most likely you will find a beast ranger or necro maybe another assassin probably a wizard or maybe you will add a templar or another tank for stability and whatever happens you won't be canceling raid or clearing only one zone because a couple bards or chanter decided they didn't want to show up.</p>

[Davngr1]

<p><cite>Banditman wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>BL's are absolutely going to be stupid OP.  It's not even a question.  If they aren't then there will be absolutely no need for them.</p></blockquote><p> pretty sure there is no need for them..    it's just a nostalgia thing bro.</p>