EQ2Wire Commentary: 10 Ways to Save Dungeon Finder

[feldon30]

<p style="text-align: center;"><img src="http://eq2wire.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/08/eq2_dungeonfinder.jpg" width="550" height="163" /></p><p>It's been 10 days since Dungeon Finder came out. In a new EQ2Wire Commentary, I lay out <a href="http://eq2wire.com/2011/10/15/commentary-10-ways-to-save-dungeon-finder/" target="_blank">10 Ways to Save it</a>.</p><p style="text-align: center;"><img src="http://eq2wire.com/files/eq2wire_banner.png" width="410" height="99" /></p>

[Gaige]

<p>Dungeon Finder will quickly go the way of the Battlegrounds.  New feature that launches buggy, doesn't get enough support and then basically dies so something else new can be released.</p>

[Corydonn]

<p><cite>Gaige wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Dungeon Finder will quickly go the way of the Battlegrounds.  New feature that launches buggy, doesn't get enough support and then basically dies so something else new can be released.</p></blockquote><p>Battlegrounds actually lasted a year. Dungeon Finder was dead in two days, But then again it's trying to work with an already dead game of heroic zones.</p>

[SisterTheresa]

<p>While I don't agree with all your suggestions, I do agree there needs to be some changes to the DF.</p>

[Gaige]

<p><cite>Corydonn wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><span style="direction: ltr;">Battlegrounds actually lasted a year.</span></p></blockquote><p>Only because the loot was OP for a long time.  If DF gave you a 100% chance of getting a metal from the zone you used DF for everyone would use it too, for that reason alone despite all the bugs.</p>

[Corydonn]

<p><cite>Gaige wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Corydonn wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><span style="direction: ltr;">Battlegrounds actually lasted a year.</span></p></blockquote><p>Only because the loot was OP for a long time.  If DF gave you a 100% chance of getting a metal from the zone you used DF for everyone would use it too, for that reason alone despite all the bugs.</p></blockquote><p>OP or Balanced? It could be used in heroic content as slightly less power as raid gear but in Heroic Challenge zones and Raiding it was entirely useless.</p>

[Ruut Li]

<p>you dont think DF needs to go cross server? at least pre 90? <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/385970365b8ed7503b4294502a458efa.gif" border="0" /></p>

[feldon30]

<p>I shake my head when people say that the only "fix" for Dungeon Finder is to go cross-server.</p><p>Yes, cross-server Dungeon Finder will be popular. It can't help but be popular with the kind of numbers it will have. Cross-server Dungeon Finder is already in the works, that's why I didn't list it.</p><p>But we're missing a huge opportunity if we don't fix it on local servers FIRST by making sure that those who are picked can actually survive the dungeon, putting together groups that have a chance of success, and by allowing us to list Alts. If they made the changes spelled out in the article, Dungeon Finder would be useful on local servers, and then be absolutely huge when it goes cross-server.</p><p>The "killer app" of Dungeon Finder shouldn't only be that it lets you play cross-server. It should be that it, you know, HELPS you Find Dungeons</p>

[Whilhelmina]

<p>And don't forget that some servers won't be able to use a cross-server DF (Valor, Storms, Sebilis, Russian servers), so we would definatedly like to have them fixed FIRST before allowing cross-server.</p>

[Jrral]

<p><cite>feldon30 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote>But we're missing a huge opportunity if we don't fix it on local servers FIRST by limiting participants to those who can actually survive the dungeon, <strong>putting together groups that have a chance of success</strong>, and by allowing us to list Alts.</blockquote><p>The bolded part's the problem. The DF can put together groups with the right class mix, but that won't help when the healer DF got is more interested in DPSing than healing, or the sorcerer insists on casting his biggest nuke on pull, or the tank insists on rushing in and pulling the entire room including the named while dual-wielding, staying in offensive stance and refusing to touch his taunts or defensive abilities because "They hurt my DPS!", or the coercer doesn't know what feeding power is, or... I'm sure you've got your own horror stories about players who just don't know how to play well in groups. The DF can't tell whether a character's being run by one of those players or not, it's got no way to measure player competency, and that's the biggest issue I've seen with DF groups.</p>

[feldon30]

<p>Was just in another Dungeon Finder group that demonstrates the problem my solutions seek to fix.</p><p>We got pulled into <em>Tower of Frozen Shadow: Haunt of Syl'tor</em>.</p><p><strong>This ranger had ALL PvP/BG gear.</strong> In other words, he had ~10% Multiattack, 25% Crit Chance, 0% Potency, 0% Crit Bonus, and less than 15% Critical Mitigation. In Public Quest gear, a ranger would have ~90% Multiattack, 85% Crit Chance, 40% Crit Bonus, and 40% Potency, and about 80% Critical Mitigation.</p><p>I asked him if he knew that PvP/BG gear doesn't work for dungeons and he said it had "other benefits". I'm not quite sure what that means, but ok. He was parsing about 3-4,000 dps on the trash and up to the first named. A ranger in Public Quest gear should be parsing 12-15k easily.</p><p>My point is, even the most minimal check for gear, stats, etc. would have prevented this. And think how long it would take to zone everyone into a Dungeon Finder group cross-server just to find out that someone doesn't understand how EQ2 gear works.</p><p>I felt sympathetic for the guy and tried to explain it nicely, but not sure he got what I was saying.</p>

[Ruut Li]

<p>I just dont see the reason why one solution would exclude the other. Theres many fixes needed, amongst them bumping population through c-s. And still the other fixes are just as important.</p>

[Koleg]

<p>Against my better judgement I attempted a DF group this weekend ... with the following results.</p><p>ISK Hot zone with a 45+ minute queue time ... seemed strange right off the bat as ISK is dropping the gems needed for Ry'Gorr armor and it was the Hot Zone for Sunday.  i would have though it should have been closer to a 5 minute (or less)queue during those peak play times.</p><p>When the group finally "built" and zoned in 4 out of 6 ppl dropped or didn't show up.  So, I being a DPS class, was at the zone-in with only another DPS class in the group.  After waiting another 5 minutes of reinforcing 1 more DPS joins.  We wait it out a bit longer and after another 15 minutes of sitting at the zone-in a 4th DPS shows up.  At this point the group for the highest desired "Hot Zone" in the game has 4 DPS toons in it.  So, I dropped group to do other things.</p><p>After I finished doing the "other things" I reluctantly re-Queue for IK and get a group almost immediately.  When I zone into IK I was placed in the same group as before only this time I'm the 6th group member and there is a tank & healer there now.  Nice!  We start clearing the zone and kill the first 3 bosses only wiping maybe 2 times, which I can live with.  Then when it comes to Tormax, even with some extensive commentary the group just doesn't have the ability to cooridinate or parse through the fight and breaks up after 5 or 6 wipes.</p><p>This group make up was fairly solid with a Pally tank and a Defiler healer (from the same guild that queued together).  One of the DPS was a Cony that parsed <span style="color: #ff0000;">@ 2.5k DPS </span>for the zone where my alt toon was parsing near 45k ZW and peaked @ 110K+ on AOE.  I don't care about other people parse as much as I care about being able to complete a zone, but unfortunately one is a direct effect of the other.  What a Nightmare, but since it is NotD I guess its part of the fun.  This is a zone which I normally run with group of 5 toons where 2 are being boxed.  It shouldn't that hard to build a group with a chance of success, this was not one of them.</p><p>If the DF groups don't have the ability to form and complete content then it will quickly go unused and die.  I'm guessing it will be a long time before I try that again personally.  It feels like a suburban soccer league where everyone gets to play, the only difference is that nobody is getting a trophy in the end.</p>

[Banditman]

<p>You absolutely whiffed on the absolute biggest failure of DF - Cross Server support.</p><p>If DF doesn't work cross server, it simply is never going to reach critical mass.  Many of the things you list here are definitely important, but until DF goes cross server, none of the other changes will save it since it won't take over as the primary method by which groups are formed.</p>

[Calthine]

<p><cite>Banditman wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>You absolutely whiffed on the absolute biggest failure of DF - Cross Server support.</p></blockquote><p>He addressed that:</p><p><cite>feldon30 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Cross-server Dungeon Finder is already in the works, that's why I didn't list it.</p></blockquote>

[Banditman]

<p>I have seen nothing concrete that says Cross Server will happen.  I've seen plenty of "We'd like to do it but . . .", however nothing that says "We are working on it currently".</p>

[Ruut Li]

<p><cite>Calthine wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Banditman wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>You absolutely whiffed on the absolute biggest failure of DF - Cross Server support.</p></blockquote><p>He addressed that:</p><p><cite>feldon30 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Cross-server Dungeon Finder is already in the works, that's why I didn't list it.</p></blockquote></blockquote><p>wheres the official word on that? Ive only seen sj say: if/when we look at cross-server...</p>

[feldon30]

<p><cite>Banditman wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I have seen nothing concrete that says Cross Server will happen.  I've seen plenty of "We'd like to do it but . . .", however nothing that says "We are working on it currently".</p></blockquote> <p>Nothing after Age of Discovery is definite except Qeynos revamp next August. Here's some nice quotes to read though:</p> <p><cite>SmokeJumper wrote in <a href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?topic_id=507601&post_id=5638400#5638400">another thread</a>:</cite></p><blockquote><p>We'll deal with cross-server issues another day when we get to that implementation.</p></blockquote> <p><cite>SmokeJumper wrote in <a href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?topic_id=507160&post_id=5633803#5633803">another thread</a>:</cite></p><blockquote><p>There are more than enough people on each individual server to keep Dungeon Finder running with same server capabilities only. Plus, same-server dungeon finder has the merit of matching you up with people on your own server, so you can actually find those people again later if you want to regroup with them. If/when we do cross-server matchmaking, it will be optional only. Some players don't want to play with anonymous strangers that they will never see again. It will not be forced upon you.</p></blockquote> <p><cite>SmokeJumper wrote in <a href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?topic_id=507160&post_id=5634627#5634627">another thread</a>:</cite></p><blockquote><p>We'll play it by ear when it goes Live and decide, based on metrics we accumulate, whether the populations are good enough to make the feature work or not. Regardless, "cross-server" is on the plate for later, but it really shouldn't be required at launch of feature.</p></blockquote> <p><cite>SmokeJumper wrote in <a href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?topic_id=503010&post_id=5584370#5584370">another thread</a>:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Dungeon Finder is going to be same-server only initially. We'd like to go cross-server, but we need more time to add that later.</p></blockquote><p>I would be shocked if they didn't at least TRY to develop it.</p>

[Calthine]

<p>Feldon needs a new title:  Multi-Quote King.</p>

[Corydonn]

<p>I don't see cross-server dungeon finder doing a thing to help. Heroic dungeons are dead for multiple reasons.</p>

[Seidhkona]

<p>I was able to use dungeon finder to clear out a bunch of old quests I had for the Hole. And I need a zillion shards yet for Ry'Gorr for all my dang alts. It's plenty useful.</p>

[Eveningsong]

<p><cite>Sigrdrifa@Lucan DLere wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I was able to use dungeon finder to clear out a bunch of old quests I had for the Hole. And I need a zillion shards yet for Ry'Gorr for all my dang alts. It's plenty useful.</p></blockquote><p>You don't need any shards for Ry'Gorr as of the latest patch... just gems.</p>

[ratbast]

<p>With the house rating system, and the byod coming...I would think dungeon finder would be another excellent program to benefit from community standards.</p><p>There are several ways to obtain feedback, but maybe its not feasible, idk. Players could rank dungeons difficulty, players could rank group members performance, post group. It would provide another reason for ppl to behave kindly, if they feared a bad review.</p><p>You could even have a skill ranking that was tied to the toon(competency), and a user ranking that was tied to account(jerk or nice).</p><p>The more feedback you receive and are able to process, the better you can tailor user experience. Right now, the only standards being used are character level and crit mit for drunder, and possibly archtype.</p><p>An additional layer you could add...allow players to control how dungeon finder places them. Elitists could ask for only super high rated players. Someone who likes a challenge could ask for g i m p group. someone who needed an update on a particular zone could say they are desperate. System would grant ppl their preferences based on how high they are rated. So just cuz the g i m p toons want the uber group, that doesnt mean they get it.</p><p>The complaints i have heard from guildies are for 2 things, other group members are unable to pull their weight, or group members dont play nice/treat others with respect. The only way to remove users incompetence from negatively impacting others, is to make the game EZ mode. So..IMO idiots SHOULD mess up others experience, otherwise win is the only outcome, just boring. nerfing challenge will only cause more problems. the problem to solve is group formation, which requires greater info. info driven by player community.</p><p>in the past, ive gotten emotional about something i disagree with in game, you can be sure i would give a negative review when someone pisses me off. players would give negative feedback of each other. the absence would signal things were ok. i dont think you would have to worry about lack of feedback if a nonbuggy ui postgroup was available. and of course, your rating would increase every time a group you were part of successfully completed the objective.</p>

[Laenai]

<p><cite>ratbastard wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>The complaints i have heard from guildies are for 2 things, other group members are unable to pull their weight, or group members dont play nice/treat others with respect. The only way to remove users incompetence from negatively impacting others, is to make the game EZ mode. So..IMO idiots SHOULD mess up others experience, otherwise win is the only outcome, just boring. nerfing challenge will only cause more problems.</p></blockquote><p>Unfortunately, if you wind up in a group with those idiots through DF, you get penalized for leaving if you don't want to be with those idiots.</p><p>My latest DF experience, I took my mystic (full HM gear) and wound up in a group of 5 in ascent. The tank was a pally and had on quested gear from SF. He certainly hasn't been 90 long, there's no way he could be even close to 200AAs much less 300, and the rest of the group wasn't much better. After I tanked most of the zone and topped the parse versus the wizard, ranger, and troub, I realized that I probably would've been better off trying to solo the zone versus using DF.</p><p>Unfortunately, I have yet to have a positive experience through DF. I don't dare queue for dungeons like Drunder or KD because the easy zones are such a cluster, I'd rather save my lockout timers for competent groups than waste my time on stupidity.</p><p>I foresee DF going the way of the arenas and BGs. A buggy waste of time that is unnecessary, will get implemented in a very poor fashion, never fixed, and never looked at again.</p>

[ratbast]

<p>@Karimonster</p><p>everyone, including the poor players, will get stuck with bad groups. everyone will have their rating dragged down. its not an effect that only happens to 90 raid geared shamans.</p><p>the point is that they(good players) will have other groups that pull their rating up, if they are good, whereas the bad players wont be part of successful groups, and they will be removed from the df process. so df will be populated with players that might not be awesome, atleast they wont make the group utterly fail, and you wont get stuck with them as often if they are mediocre.</p><p>the strength of community ratings is in volume. the nicest houses get some poor ratings, but the positive reviews win out over time. as a player earns a better rating, they would have less and less involuntary grouping with low rating players.</p><p>good players would be able to all log in during peak hours, queue df and have prime group, even if they queued for EoW, which is not a good idea to pug.</p><p>only thing i see as prohibitive would be managing a new database--more lag? i think it would automate the needed social give and take ppl are too lazy to put forth to create groups. good idea for mmo?</p><p>the biggest downside to player ratings, would be crappy players would be isolated even more. solution? allow crappy rating players to do mentoring in DF, the crappier their rating, the lower they could go. at some point, they would find a level they could earn aa and be bamf, or at the very least, contribute due to OP mentoring system.</p>