Rather than necroing the old thread...(CM requirement changes)

[Kruschev2086]

<p>So, now that the last 2 kael zones no longer have Crit Mit as an easy way to judge if someone can survive the AEs, tank the zone, have the gear to heal it, etc, newer players just have to guess when they are ready, and hope. </p><p>The final encounter in Throne of Storms is not for the undergeared, unless your chanter is able to deal with KBs, and keep 3 mezzed at a time, while power feeding.  This will lead to aggrevation when the tank just doesn't have the gear to be there.  Or the healer can't keep up with the spike.  Do you want your players leaving the game? </p><p>Lets look at Statue fight.  70% avoidance, or someone able to stunlock the statue to prevent it from one shotting the tank.  Good luck new players.  How about the golems?  3 mobs beating on a PQ tank because after all, no CM requirement, he should be able to deal with them.</p><p>Take the Vig zones from SF.  When did you know when you were able to go into them?  How about abandoned labs?  I liked CM being a required mechanic for zones since it told you straight out what you needed to be able to survive.  Now, thats not in there.  Do what you want sony.  Its all you are good at apparently.</p>

[Psykotic]

<p>When people have gear score, they complain about it nonstop.</p><p>When they take gear score away people complain.</p><p>Just can't win...</p>

[Lempo]

<p><cite>Kruschev2086 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>So, now that the last 2 kael zones no longer have Crit Mit as an easy way to judge if someone can survive the AEs, tank the zone, have the gear to heal it, etc, newer players just have to guess when they are ready, and hope. </p><p>The final encounter in Throne of Storms is not for the undergeared, unless your chanter is able to deal with KBs, and keep 3 mezzed at a time, while power feeding.  This will lead to aggrevation when the tank just doesn't have the gear to be there.  Or the healer can't keep up with the spike.  Do you want your players leaving the game? </p><p>Lets look at Statue fight.  70% avoidance, or someone able to stunlock the statue to prevent it from one shotting the tank.  <strong>Good luck new players</strong>.  How about the golems?  3 mobs beating on a PQ tank because after all, no CM requirement, he should be able to deal with them.</p><p>Take the Vig zones from SF.  When did you know when you were able to go into them?  How about abandoned labs?  I liked CM being a required mechanic for zones since it told you straight out what you needed to be able to survive.  Now, thats not in there.  Do what you want sony.  Its all you are good at apparently.</p></blockquote><p>These zones were the end game (non raid) content.</p><p>New players have no business in there until they are geared from the earlier instances from that tier, it was the same way in SF you didn't just jump right into the vigilant zones.</p><p>How about go play in the wailing caves.</p>

[Nrgy]

<p><cite>Kruschev2086 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>So, now that the last 2 kael zones no longer have Crit Mit as an easy way to judge if someone can survive the AEs, tank the zone, have the gear to heal it, etc, newer players just have to guess when they are ready, and hope. </p><p>The final encounter in Throne of Storms is not for the undergeared, unless your chanter is able to deal with KBs, and keep 3 mezzed at a time, while power feeding.  This will lead to aggrevation when the tank just doesn't have the gear to be there.  Or the healer can't keep up with the spike.  Do you want your players leaving the game? </p><p>Lets look at Statue fight.  70% avoidance, or someone able to stunlock the statue to prevent it from one shotting the tank.  Good luck new players.  How about the golems?  3 mobs beating on a PQ tank because after all, no CM requirement, he should be able to deal with them.</p><p>Take the Vig zones from SF.  When did you know when you were able to go into them?  How about abandoned labs?  I liked CM being a required mechanic for zones since it told you straight out what you needed to be able to survive.  Now, thats not in there.  Do what you want sony.  Its all you are good at apparently.</p></blockquote><p>The new zone indicator will be CC or CB/Pot/MA values for gear levels... CM was never the issue with those zones in the first place and if they were any sort of indicator for a successful zone pass then they were too LOW becasue you would already get the required CM in PQ gear.</p><p>but im sure this wasn't mentioned in the other 12 threads on the same subject ... and as far as Necro'ing goes it usually only pertains to threads a couple of months old or older and normally isn't about current issues, of which neither apply to this topic.</p><p>imo, CM was removed simply for DF purposes ... although removing it will not make the DF easier but the opposite will be true.  Sure you can find a group quicker .. but can you finish a zone, I'm guessing no!  You could even make the arguement that the ToRZ BP was nerfed becasue the zones is going to get the challenge chopped to squat in support of the DF as well.  I'll even go out on a limp that says a normal DF-PUG will never even see the Statue becasue they will never kill the second to last boss and drop the barrier.  You heard it here first ... good thread through ..</p>

[LardLord]

<p>Yeah, removing the crit mit requirement barely affects the actual gear requirement at all.</p>

[thewarriorpoet]

<p><cite>Psykotic@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>When people have gear score, they complain about it nonstop.</p><p>When they take gear score away people complain.</p><p>Just can't win...</p></blockquote><p>No, when people have a gear score based off of one asinine stat people complain. And rightfully so. CM requirements dwindle the customization options down to white adornments. Granted this wouldn't be such a big deal if EQ2 didn't have great customization options in the past.</p><p>Though I do agree, a win is just not possible. Customization means difference and difference is inherrently not balanced. Therefore its a lose-lose from the make the players stop whining goal.</p>

[Eugam]

<p>I wouldnt underestimate players.  Most understand the progression quite well. Its nothing new. Camping the shoulder drop in Mistmore Castlel wasnt something everybody could do. ANd it was not only about items. Some still chat and exchange informations to learn the game <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" /></p><p>Gear Score is maybe the wrong machanism. Gear score doesnt tell anything about encounters. Why not stick to tradition ? Lowend is low to medium blue mobs and then moves through the progression up to orange. If a group fails on a white named, then it shouldnt be because they had the wrong Score as long as they are not terribly undergeared...</p>

[Nrgy]

<p><cite>Nrgy wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>The new zone indicator will be CC or CB/Pot/MA values for gear levels... CM was never the issue with those zones in the first place and if they were any sort of indicator for a successful zone pass then they were too LOW becasue you would already get the required CM in PQ gear.</p><p>but im sure this wasn't mentioned in the other 12 threads on the same subject ... and as far as Necro'ing goes it usually only pertains to threads a couple of months old or older and normally isn't about current issues, of which neither apply to this topic.</p><p>imo,<span style="color: #ff0000;"> CM was removed simply for DF purposes </span>... although removing it will not make the DF easier but the opposite will be true.  Sure you can find a group quicker .. but can you finish a zone, I'm guessing no!  You could even make the arguement that the ToRZ BP was nerfed becasue the zones is going to get the challenge chopped to squat in support of the DF as well.  I'll even go out on a limp that says a normal DF-PUG will never even see the Statue becasue they will never kill the second to last boss and drop the barrier.  You heard it here first ... good thread through ..</p></blockquote><p>DUNGEON FINDER</p><ul><li>Instances in Kael Drakkel should no longer require a specific amount of critical mitigation in order to queue up for them in the dungeon finder.</li></ul><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">Whoomp, There it is!!</span></p>

[Hamervelder]

<p><cite>Kruschev2086 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>So, now that the last 2 kael zones no longer have Crit Mit as an easy way to judge if someone can survive the AEs, tank the zone, have the gear to heal it, etc, newer players just have to guess when they are ready, and hope. </p><p>The final encounter in Throne of Storms is not for the undergeared, unless your chanter is able to deal with KBs, and keep 3 mezzed at a time, while power feeding.  This will lead to aggrevation when the tank just doesn't have the gear to be there.  Or the healer can't keep up with the spike.  Do you want your players leaving the game? </p><p>Lets look at Statue fight.  70% avoidance, or someone able to stunlock the statue to prevent it from one shotting the tank.  Good luck new players.  How about the golems?  3 mobs beating on a PQ tank because after all, no CM requirement, he should be able to deal with them.</p><p>Take the Vig zones from SF.  When did you know when you were able to go into them?  How about abandoned labs?  I liked CM being a required mechanic for zones since it told you straight out what you needed to be able to survive.  Now, thats not in there.  Do what you want sony.  Its all you are good at apparently.</p></blockquote><p>Seriously?  When SOE introduced crit mit requirements for heroic zones, people complained.  A single stat shouldn't decide whether or not they could do certain zones, they said.  Now, you're complaining that you no longer need critical mitigation to do heroic content?  You still need the same quality gear and player skill that you needed before.  Judging from your post, it sounds like you group with people who lack the latter.  Part of being a skilled player is knowing what you can, and can't do.  Sony can't provide you with self-awareness or common sense.</p>

[Kruschev2086]

I am one of those people who spent days and weeks farming shards from zones. My 90s that I play in DoV have rygorr/kael dropped. My main is in HM x4. I still see undergeared people in tougher zones. Most people are too polite to say you can't come to because you have 105 CM. I alternate between the two. Telling people to go away, they can't handle the AEs due to CM, and sometimes warn them to expect to die a lot. It depends on their role in the group. Do people cheer the removal? sure. I just know now to avoid these zones except with people I have grouped with before and know them to be competent, guildies or otherwise.

[Nrgy]

<p><cite>Kruschev2086 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote>I am one of those people who spent days and weeks farming shards from zones. My 90s that I play in DoV have rygorr/kael dropped. My main is in HM x4. I still see undergeared people in tougher zones. Most people are too polite to say you can't come to because you have 105 CM. I alternate between the two. Telling people to go away, they can't handle the AEs due to CM, and sometimes warn them to expect to die a lot. It depends on their role in the group. Do people cheer the removal? sure. I just know now to avoid these zones except with people I have grouped with before and know them to be competent, guildies or otherwise.</blockquote><p>This is exactly the entire point a lot of you are sweeping under the rug.  Nobody wants to have a Tank with 105 CM but would accept a Dirge with the same number.  Even in cases where a given zone required 120 and a Tank showed up with 120 CM they would still not be desired.  The CM was an indicator of knowledge, effort and maybe to a small degree skill.  Nobody cares if you have enough CM or not they only care that the zone will sucede.  The Tank with 120 CM can tank (mechanically) just as well as the Tank with 185 CM.  The difference is that the Tank with 185 CM has in one simple step potentially told everyone who he is, how he plays and what hes capable of.  Is that fair?  No, not really... Is it true?  Yeah, it really is. </p><p>The Dungeon Finder cannot match skill and without some type of indicator will mismatch group abilities often if not always.  Gear socre might have solved this .. CM was in pace to prevent this .. and now we are left with no form of measurement.  How very communistic, treat everybody the same.  Ok I'm for it, but what happens when the fact is that they are not the same nor are the zones.</p><p>Any bad tank / good heals+DPS can do tofs:sc or Ascent .. the same is not true for Kael 2 & 3.  I am STILL under the impression that gear score still exists in the game but it is just not displayed.  The gear socre is going to be needed for the Reforging mechanic as much as it is for the Dungeon Fnder.  I wouldn't be suprised if it were used in the reitemization script as well.</p><p>With that impression I am really hoping that it all works out and those systems are not one big pile of dung.</p>

[Daggster]

<p>So, let me get this straight, they're doing extra work to make DF useless? I don't mind tankin Ascent on my necro (or let my pet tank), but sure as hell don't want to tank in ToS/ToRZ, not even ISK. CM requirement was the stat that in a single value held the info that if the tank had high enough CM, he/she had a chance of holding aggro. So they're preparing to change DF so that if you have better than PQ gear as a dps you really can only line up for the easier zones where any decently geared toon, or their pet (which you have no chance of "slowing down" and pulling it off every 2 seconds gets old really fast and the "detaunt" has way too long cooldown for it to be of any use in a situation like that), can tank and not die in 2 rounds. I've tried to "hold it back" in Ascent, sometimes waited for the mob to be half-dead and still ripped aggro after 2 spells. In Ascent it's no problem, ToRZ? Count me out.</p><p>Besides from easily limiting the players to at least a specific gear-level so there's even some chance for the instance run to be succesful, requiring CM for heroic content has one other huge benefit. That's the possibility to jump in on a pickup raid as a casual to semi-casual player. If I had no CM, don't think I'd be taken to PURs much, but as a player with limited time I like to get in on an occasional PUR when I see one forming at the time I have time to play and join in. Removing CM requirement from all heroic zones would probably end up in the removal of CM stat from heroic gear and thus removing my chances of probably ever raiding again...</p>