New heroic BP adjustments are bugged [Archive]

dotdotdot

09-27-2011, 02:50 AM

ITEMS<div>Kael and Drunder group BPs have been modified to better fit within the progression.</div><div></div><div>The bp's from Fortress Spire are now better than the Zek ones. GG.</div>

FarinIX

09-27-2011, 03:17 AM

Agreed. Knight's Prodigious Breastplate: 32 Mitigation!<img src="http://i51.tinypic.com/2lj5d0g.jpg" />

buntline

09-27-2011, 03:33 AM

<img src="http://eq2images.station.sony.com/000/001/771/281.JPG" width="1024" height="384" />mitigation clearly bugged. seems good that drunder BPs sets 37.1CM, I think.but this is progression.btw stealth upgrade on CoV x2 BPs?

Kincaid

09-27-2011, 10:10 AM

you;re kidding?!? why on earth did they make this change...

Kincaid

09-27-2011, 10:21 AM

changing the breastplate stats so now that they are lower in the progression that has been in the game since february at this late stage is crazy.

Onodi

09-27-2011, 11:50 AM

this really screws up my CM loosing 5% on the ToRZ chest... just readorned a red slot last night since my guild's current progression targets only need 260 CM. now with today's update i'm below that and I do not have shard to spare ATMneed to get some verification if this was intentinoal or this is going to be corrected with next hot fix... if intentinoal then not happy that the CM on the ToRZ chest has LESS cm then the one from Velks Spire now.

Anestacia

09-27-2011, 11:53 AM

On the whole scheme of things, this change might be minor but come on! I'm not one to normally complain about a few nerfs here and there for balance but itemization with DoV has been a complete cluster and I dont see how you are STILL changing things 6 weeks before ANOTHER expansion.It has truly gotten to the point in this game that I am scared to use shards, dkp or even transmute old gear because it seems to change multiple times a month! I get having to tweak things, I really do, but the time for that is not 9 months after the stuff was released. IMO, you have 1 month to fix things then they should be left ALONE. Yes, it's your game and you can do what you want to but its stuff like this that drives people away. Not just this, but a whole aray of things within the past few years just leaves me thinking one word when I hear the word SOE. Unprofessional! I honestly hope you guys take a step back, take a breath and get your ducks in a row up at SOE HQ before EQNext is released. This level of profesionalism will NOT net you more players/profit.

Boethius_Permafrost

09-27-2011, 11:54 AM

Major bug necessitating an immediate hotfix:The mitigation value. I think torz bp's should have higher armor values than ... level 2 crafted gear?Minor screwups and pointless nerfs just to annoy people, because drunder wasn't itemized correctly:The critical mitigation is NOT correct for the progression.The other stat nerfs are somewhat minor, but still uncalled for.

Onodi

09-27-2011, 12:02 PM

red flag.. notice that screenshot above of the BPs.. look at the ToRZ Mit (not the crit mit) for the most part its GONEmy ToRZ BP only has 33 mit atm... hmmm yea might as well be appearance gear for now (haha)...

Delimant

09-27-2011, 12:15 PM

<img src="http://i.imgur.com/IBJHW.png" width="643" height="527" />Just to add more fuel to the fire. This was taken from live today.

Troubor

09-27-2011, 12:31 PM

<cite>Delimant@Butcherblock wrote:</cite><blockquote><img src="http://i.imgur.com/IBJHW.png" width="643" height="527" />Just to add more fuel to the fire. This was taken from live today.</blockquote> I didn't screenshot this, but I logged on for 5 minutes to see what changes happened to my heroic Drunder 3 BP. It didn't get nerfed (In fact, it gained some blue and green stats, and went from yellow to red adorn slot, although crit mit stayed the same, so Drunder heroic BP's improved a small bit) but someone linked their guardian BP from TORZ, and it's mitigation (not crit mit, the actual mitigation) was something like 30. It also looks like the blue and green stats were lower then Fortress Spire BP's on his TORZ one as well.

Shaolin Sam

09-27-2011, 12:54 PM

WTG SOE on this latest round of silliness!Anyone else quit today? Heh.MORE linkies!<img src="http://i1105.photobucket.com/albums/h353/shaolinsams/Untitled.png" width="611" height="542" />

Alpharaz

09-27-2011, 01:10 PM

oh joy this is so exciting wonder what my gear will look like next week!! you never can tell with SOE nerf of the week .. really inspires players to upgrade gear cuz once they do.. who know their previous gear could turn out being better than the upgrades they spent time effort or plat to get .. great way to lose players left and right or just immensely irritate them ... this nerf will likely lead to more nerfs so if you don't have hm raid gear you might as well not waste time upgrading too much because the progression is getting messed up every week with poor itemization. This expac has made a lot of players quit and the main reason i would bet is because of poor itemization.

Shaolin Sam

09-27-2011, 01:12 PM

I'm still laughing over the fact that they refuse to upgrade DoV standard raid loot to be more in line with the changes they made to the previous expansion's gear.It's like all the devs and people in charge of loot are sitting there with their eyes closed and their hands over their ears going "lalalalalalalalaIcan'thearyoulalalalalalala" when it comes to needed item changes.

Shaolin Sam

09-27-2011, 01:39 PM

"Red" comments? You guys at SOE going to toss in your 2 cents about what happened? Was it a screwup (we assume this of course since it's pretty much a standard thing lately). Was it intentional (god... I'd hope not). Is it going to be fixed today? Next Tuesday? Next month?Ever?

Gninja

09-27-2011, 01:45 PM

The mitigation is obviously bugged. We will get it fixed asap. The crit mit we are looking into and I will have to get back to you guys when I have more information about what happened.

Shaolin Sam

09-27-2011, 01:49 PM

Man. You really ARE a Gninja, lol. I see that your is the latest post in this thread but when I click to read your post, there's nothing there. Mine still shows as the last one made. However... when I hit the reply button, I see your comment of...<table cellspacing="1" cellpadding="3" width="100%"><tbody><tr><td align="left" valign="top"><a></a>Gninja</td><td height="28" valign="top"><table cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0" width="100%"><tbody><tr><td width="100%"><img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/styles/EQ2/eq2_default/images/common/icon_minipost.gif" border="0" width="12" height="9" /> 09/27/2011 09:45:19 Subject: Re:New heroic BP adjustments are bugged </td></tr><tr><td colspan="2"><hr /></td></tr><tr><td colspan="2">The mitigation is obviously bugged. We will get it fixed asap. The crit mit we are looking into and I will have to get back to you guys when I have more information about what happened.</td></tr></tbody></table></td></tr></tbody></table>Thanks for the answer (though I wish you'd included a time to have it fixed). Here's to hoping it's soon.

Shaolin Sam

09-27-2011, 01:51 PM

NOW your post showed up lol! <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Wierd forum action today.

Cyliena

09-27-2011, 01:55 PM

<cite>Shaolin Sam wrote:</cite><blockquote>NOW your post showed up lol! <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" /> Wierd forum action today.</blockquote>Happens frequently when a new page is being created.

dotdotdot

09-27-2011, 02:04 PM

I just want to say, if you want to avoid bugs like this hitting live, you MIGHT want to consider having stuff on test for more than 12 hours.

Nrgy

09-27-2011, 02:17 PM

<cite>Gninja wrote:</cite><blockquote>The mitigation is obviously bugged. We will get it fixed asap. The crit mit we are looking into and I will have to get back to you guys when I have more information about what happened.</blockquote>When PQ chest pieces come with over 30 CM and ToRZ Chest pieces has only 4 or 5 more CM on it something is out of balance. Especially considering the PQ chest is basically free to any solo'er and the ToRZ one requires a fully CM'ed geared (130+) group to get.If your trying to balance gear then please balance it to content. It seams that you've drawn a line in the sand on the x4 chest pieces and everything MUST fit undertheath them. Would it really be out of this realm to actually increase the tolerances rather than continue to constrict them? I beleive that the gear needs to progress from Othmir quest up to x4, but when that progression is +1 or +2 CM its just to rediculous for words. Making the variance from the easiest (Free) to the hardest (24 man groups fully raid geared) only maybe 10 CM is just plain Silly. <forum Filter avoided>

Shaolin Sam

09-27-2011, 02:23 PM

<cite>dotdotdot wrote:</cite><blockquote>I just want to say, if you want to avoid bugs like this hitting live, you MIGHT want to consider having stuff on test for more than 12 hours.</blockquote>Listening to their testers would rock too but they're probably not going to do that either.

Loxus

09-27-2011, 02:23 PM

<cite>Gninja wrote:</cite><blockquote>The crit mit we are looking into and I will have to get back to you guys when I have more information about what happened.</blockquote>Are we to assume that the changes to pot, CB, and the green stats were intended then? I'm just curious how this change helps heroic groups move into Drunder with less stats. It's not like pugs are rampaging the place nightly and there isn't exactly a ton of upgrades right off the bat in Rage. Or does SOE not consider Drunder a part of the heroic progression?

insano19t

09-27-2011, 02:37 PM

when is fixed asap.. will it go in today? please gninja.. put the hotfix in today.. its rediculous that we would have to wait a day.. just bring server down for 30 min for hotfix and put back up.

Psykotic

09-27-2011, 02:38 PM

<cite>Loxus@Everfrost wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Gninja wrote:</cite><blockquote>The crit mit we are looking into and I will have to get back to you guys when I have more information about what happened.</blockquote>Are we to assume that the changes to pot, CB, and the green stats were intended then? I'm just curious how this change helps heroic groups move into Drunder with less stats. It's not like pugs are rampaging the place nightly and there isn't exactly a ton of upgrades right off the bat in Rage. Or does SOE not consider Drunder a part of the heroic progression?</blockquote>QFE My static group has been working our way through heroic progression, and I know the devs came on here and stated somewhere that Kael gear was enough to start working on Drunder. I can tell you from experience that while it may give you enough crit mit, it is nowhere near enough. Even without crits those mobs in there can still one or two shot us if we aren't perfect in our execution. If anything gear needed a boost not a nerf to maintain a reasonable progression path for heroic players.

fred3111

09-27-2011, 02:39 PM

For weeks, non raiders have been complaining because ry'gorr stuff is not enough for finishing Drunder 1.Dev's answer: a ry'gorr nerf.I'll try tu sum up the situation for casual players, and customers.Tower of the Frozen Shadows has never attracted people except for X2 access. PQ loots are way better...Rime 1 and 2: almost the same.Rime 3, Kael Drakkel: the only heroic zones doable by non raiders.So, since Velious launch, nothing has been done for non raiders. I guess it's time for me to give up EQ2 and try Skyrim or Rift.

LardLord

09-27-2011, 02:59 PM

<cite>Gninja wrote:</cite><blockquote>The mitigation is obviously bugged.</blockquote>Obviously! Would this have happened if you weren't relying on that worthless itemizer script?

Amanathia

09-27-2011, 03:07 PM

"hey guys, itemization is messed up. Yeah, turns out that the drunder heroic zones are harder than the tofs x2 and actually harder than some of the em x4 raid content, so the gear progression is really weird, because anyone that can clear them doesn't need the stuff. Also heroic running people are angry because they must do raids to be able to run later heroic stuff. The drunder em raid zones really dont' fit either, because they are way harder than most launch hard mode stuff but the gear isn't as good--maybe we should look into this.""K guys I've got a fix--I've nerfed the TORZ bp"???????Seriously. What are you guys thinking with this? This makes no sense. Progression is so messed up. You know some of the fights in drunder heroic are harder than 1 boxing some of the launch EM raid content, right? You know some of the x2 content is easier (well most of tofs x2 honestly) than most of the drunder heroic stuff, right--1 group, mind u.For the most part, the progression from EM to HM in original launch, armor wise, is fine, small improvements but noticeable and extra slot. Progression heroic wise was okay, from rime zones to kael stuff you get a bit more stats, and its okay that you might want a few heroic items over a few raid items--this is okay as long--the armor can be reasonably close together but not identical. But you could clear almost all of EM and then try a few hard mode mobs and be able to do it, etc. You could clear rime zones and then move on to kael zones but you might need a bit more items to do TORZ, etc. This is good. But then you have drunder stuff. Which just doesn't fit in for risk vs. reward at all.You've made the launch heroic stuff super super easy by requiring no crit mit at all. Too easy. Then you've got Kael which is probably mostly okay difficulty and RvR wise. There's some super tough stuff in there for a PQ geared group, but the armor is nice. Then you have drunder which is just totally out of whack difficult for the rewards. This change makes it even more out of whack because it makes doing the drunder zones even more difficult.Not to mention you just totally messed up a TON of easy mode and entry hard mode raiders that don't have their chest items from statue yet. A LOT of raiders still use that TORZ bp, you realize this right? What about all the guilds out there going through easy mode x4 content. What about those that are doing a few hard mode fights but have gotten super unlucky with statue and don't have fighter bps for their tank and/or OT yet? Armor changes were needed but not this one, wow.Changes that are needed: Tserinna x2 gear should be buffed. PQ gear should probably be nerfed to be a bit worse than TOFS gear. Drunder heroic stuff should be fairly comparable to launch EM x4 gear hate to say it, or the zones should be made easier otherwise. The stuff from dunder should not be worse than tofs x2 gear unless, you know, the fighters are easier for a single group than tofs x2 fights are. The way it is now makes no sense. EM drunder x4 stuff should be similar but different to launch HM stuff (not worse), and drunder HM stuff should be buffed to be better than it is because it's too close to the laucnh HM stuff, those few guilds that can clear it shuold be rewarded imho.

Amanathia

09-27-2011, 03:11 PM

<cite>Psykotic@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>QFE My static group has been working our way through heroic progression, and I know the devs came on here and stated somewhere that Kael gear was enough to start working on Drunder. I can tell you from experience that while it may give you enough crit mit, it is nowhere near enough. Even without crits those mobs in there can still one or two shot us if we aren't perfect in our execution. If anything gear needed a boost not a nerf to maintain a reasonable progression path for heroic players.</blockquote>This change just messed up a ton of raiders as well because that chest item is worn by people all throughout the launch easy mode x4 raids and by many all the way into some hard mode content. Statue is by far the hardest final easy mode boss of the launch zones. ALL of the other launch x4 raids will probably be tanked by a tank wearing this TORZ chest piece. Get unlucky and you might be wearing it into some hard mode stuff, too! If you aren't a tank you will have a very good chance of doing some hard mode stuff while still wearing the torz chest! This change makes everyone's progression more messed up, unless you are either just starting (PQ gear is great, too good for the difficulty of tofs stuff now imho), or in the very top guilds (which has its own massive itemization problems).

RhaeNZ

09-27-2011, 03:40 PM

This is just depressing. Even ignoring the mitigation screw up, nerfing these BP's is rough. Doubt our group will ever be seeing a Drunder one. At least I've got the dirge mythic nerf to look forward too.../cry

Barx

09-27-2011, 03:43 PM

The crit bonus / crit mit nerfs to the regular heroic stuff (regular ToRZ bp, etc.) are fine, they have been more powerful than they should be for a long time now and should have been nerfed long ago, though the regular mitigation is obviously a bug. (How that goes live is beyond me... anyone in QA that looked at the item should have seen it, which makes me wonder if any live person actually looked at the finished items). Tho TBH they still have more crit bonus than the EM x4 which makes little sense to me.Now the HM ToRZ BP is a different story. That fight is more difficult than the EM x4 statue and should have slightly better stats, including crit mit. The only people that have a chance of clearing it are raiders, and as a harder fight its crit mit should be better. The whole point of HM heroic zones is to give raiders (or at least raid-geared people) some challenging heroic content and correspondingly some non-raid item upgrades. Nerfing those BPs so that its worse than something that is considerably easier to do simply doesn't make sense.You can clear EM statue with 2 groups (or less, really) without much difficulty, but HM ToRZ twin idols requires 6 people on top of their game and sufficiently geared.

Shaolin Sam

09-27-2011, 03:43 PM

New, in 2012, SOE acquires the rights to NERFITQUEST and plans on renaming their EQ1 and EQ2 franchises to reflect the newly acquired name.

Neskonlith

09-27-2011, 03:46 PM

<cite>RhaeNZ wrote:</cite><blockquote>This is just depressing. Even ignoring the mitigation screw up, nerfing these BP's is rough. Doubt our group will ever be seeing a Drunder one. At least I've got the dirge mythic nerf to look forward too.../cry</blockquote>The Dirge ~33% dps nerf is just a start, as there will need to be more nerfs to drop them lower than a Troubador to create balance between Bards!<img src="/eq2/images/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" />

Anklesteiner

09-27-2011, 04:35 PM

It's funny. All of the other major MMO's on the market have a development team that actually listens to their subscriber base - you know...the people who actually play the game every day. They take into account their thoughts on the state of the game and implement those thoughts based on what type of feedback they are receive. That is why every other major MMO on the market actually gets better with every patch released because it incorporates changes that is the product of both the subscriber base and of the development team.So, why is it EverQuest 2 is the ONLY game with a development team that doesn't care about anything their subscriber base has to say? You think there is a coincidence that with every patch released EQ2 as a game is getting progressively worse and every other major MMO on the market is getting better? The EverQuest 2 development team simply doesn't care about what we feel and think towards the game. It's why every single patch or update contains several nerfs that degrade the gaming experience for us as a whole. Instead of creating content and implementing changes that have received positive feedback from the subscriber base, the EQ2 continually ignores our thoughts and just does whatever they want. It's either we accept their horrible changes or we move on.I'm reaching the point where I am going to move on...as have 20,000+ people have over the last month...at least according to the latest subscription figures. Maybe that's what it will take? Maybe enough people need to walk away from EQ2 to finally get the development team to actually listen and care about the things we have to say?

Amanathia

09-27-2011, 04:35 PM

<cite>Barx@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>The crit bonus / crit mit nerfs to the regular heroic stuff (regular ToRZ bp, etc.) are fine, they have been more powerful than they should be for a long time now and should have been nerfed long ago, though the regular mitigation is obviously a bug. (How that goes live is beyond me... anyone in QA that looked at the item should have seen it, which makes me wonder if any live person actually looked at the finished items). Tho TBH they still have more crit bonus than the EM x4 which makes little sense to me.</blockquote>Yes, clearly it was too good. I mean, once heroic progression people got it they could go in and own it up in the drunder heroics and such, right? Wait, no. The progression issue here is that the pq stuff is way too good, tserinna x2 stuff was not good enough, the drunder em raid stuff isn't good enough, the drunder heroic stuff isn't good enough (or the zones are too difficult, they are harder than tofs x2), and the drunder x4 hm stuff isn't good enough. And no group that is in appropriate gear will be killing statue EM x4 with "less than 2 groups". What chest peice do you think the tank will be wearing the first time (and maybe the five times, even, given how screwy loot luck can be) statue EM x4 dies? Well, I guess it'll be the spire heroic BP now, lololol. The guild I'm in we have those down we are getting into HM stuff, have some HM x4 stuff down, etc--you know what BP a lot of people are stil using? Yeah, this one. Risk vs. reward on this one and on the EM x4 launch stuff felt 'bout right. Felt way off on tserinna stuff (gear too poor), way off on PQ stuf (way too good), way off on drunder heroic (too poor for difficulty).This change essentially does three things:1. Hurts most of the EM and beginning HM raid guilds out there.2. Will make all heroic progression players angry if they don't have their spire bp in the bank somewhere. (what's even more absurd is it doesn't address the actual heroic progression issues, that being PQ stuff is too good related to TOFS gear, and drunder loot is too poor or the zones are too difficult because they require raid gear to run).3. Will make people wearing the PQ bp laugh at all the poor n00bs running TORZ, putting in effort for nothing.

LardLord

09-27-2011, 04:45 PM

<cite>Barx@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>Now the HM ToRZ BP is a different story. That fight is more difficult than the EM x4 statue and should have slightly better stats, including crit mit. The only people that have a chance of clearing it are raiders, and as a harder fight its crit mit should be better. The whole point of HM heroic zones is to give raiders (or at least raid-geared people) some challenging heroic content and correspondingly some non-raid item upgrades. Nerfing those BPs so that its worse than something that is considerably easier to do simply doesn't make sense.You can clear EM statue with 2 groups (or less, really) without much difficulty, but HM ToRZ twin idols requires 6 people on top of their game and sufficiently geared.</blockquote>Fortunately, the HM ToRZ BPs weren't nerfed (at least mine wasn't).

Zmobie

09-27-2011, 04:45 PM

<cite>Gninja wrote:</cite><blockquote>The mitigation is obviously bugged. We will get it fixed asap. The crit mit we are looking into and I will have to get back to you guys when I have more information about what happened.</blockquote>Yet it still went on to Live the day after it hit test, before anyone had a chance to look at it.I say "anyone", but what I really meany was "anyone on Test". It ***should*** have been looked at by internal QA. It should have been flagged by internal QA as bugged. It shouldn't have been released.I do QA for a living. I've been testing software at major companies for over 10 years. I would be embarassed if I worked at SOE. It's perfectly clear that either you don't have any/enough internal QA, or that the people who make the decision to launch don't listen to them. The test server should be there to pick up the slack, to find small little things that somehow QA missed. "obviously bugged". Obviously. Yet, it still made it to the Test server, and was immediately pushed to Live./shakes head in disgust--Nibs

Kringus

09-27-2011, 04:55 PM

Anurra

09-27-2011, 06:56 PM

<cite>Kringus wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Gninja wrote:</cite><blockquote>The mitigation is obviously bugged. We will get it fixed asap. The crit mit we are looking into and I will have to get back to you guys when I have more information about what happened.</blockquote>Let me respectfully suggest that you include a code review prior to letting this stuff loose on the live server.I'll make no mention of anyone having ignored test server feedback.</blockquote>SOE neither has the skills or budget to do those things. Even if they DID have the skills or budget, they still wouldn't do them because they just don't care.

Neskonlith

09-27-2011, 07:15 PM

Any word on when this will get fixed?

Shaolin Sam

09-27-2011, 07:17 PM

Nope. They STILL haven't told us...For all we know, they don't even know how to fix it yet. <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Kenweth

09-27-2011, 07:19 PM

Tonight would be good. Why have a test server if you are not going to use it? Bugs like this should be caught on test and fixed before it gets to the Live servers.

severius

09-27-2011, 07:47 PM

We have these "obvious" mistakes on itemization, and yet you guys are still pushing for me to buy the newest expansion coming out in what, 2 months? I mean, what kind of faith do I have that you guys will release a quality product when after 6 months of re-itemization, you still make such obvious mistakes and release them to live.As a corporation selling a service, I would think that you would spend a little more time on QA to ensure that everything is as correct as possible before releasing it to your paying customers.But until you can show me you can do that, I honestly cannot put my money down on a pre-order of your upcoming expansion.

Chronk

09-27-2011, 07:52 PM

Maybe Blizzard purchased SoE and is trying to drive all the customers to WoW. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" />

Shaolin Sam

09-27-2011, 08:00 PM

Doubtful. Companies buy other companies to make money. Buying SOE (even just to drive it even further into the ground that Smokejumper already has) would STILL be losing way to much money imo. The only people that would make out would be the SOE people that pocket the cash then run to some non-extradition treaty country.

Umub

09-27-2011, 08:15 PM

I am patient person by nature and I am happy to give the EQ2 developers the benefit of the doubt on many, many things. But this change kind of shakes my confidence in the game and developers in two ways. First, please beef up your QA or reign in your release managers so they listen to your QA. This kind of mitigation bug shouldn't happen. Second, if you are going to nerf gear you had better have a really good reason to do so, especially something key like the BP off the last name in the last zone in a series of zones. You are going to make people upset with the change so don't do it unless it is absolutely necessary. Nerfing PQ crit mit a few weeks after launch - absolutely necessary, still made people mad but absolutely necessary. This change - absolutely unecessary.I also think it is totally missing the point on progression. What is broken is not the gear progression but instead is the instance progression difficulty. To give an example, I can VERY easily 2-box the first named in Temple of Rallos Zek with my SK and Inquisitor in Ry'gor armor with a couple of TOFS x2 pieces and the rest instance gear from TOFS, Velketor and Kael. However, in the very next zone in the heroic progression, Spire of Rage, we struggled with 6 similarly geared toons/players with a few wipes on the first name. I'm sure it would get easier with repetition, but we are left wondering why bother. The gear isn't worth having for the most part it is way harder and takes way longer to run than Kael so why continue there. So we work on alts in TOFS, Velketor and Kael instead of moving forward on our mains in Drunder.

Amanathia

09-27-2011, 08:32 PM

<cite>Umub wrote:</cite><blockquote>I am patient person by nature and I am happy to give the EQ2 developers the benefit of the doubt on many, many things. But this change kind of shakes my confidence in the game and developers in two ways. First, please beef up your QA or reign in your release managers so they listen to your QA. This kind of mitigation bug shouldn't happen. Second, if you are going to nerf gear you had better have a really good reason to do so, especially something key like the BP off the last name in the last zone in a series of zones. You are going to make people upset with the change so don't do it unless it is absolutely necessary. Nerfing PQ crit mit a few weeks after launch - absolutely necessary, still made people mad but absolutely necessary. This change - absolutely unecessary.I also think it is totally missing the point on progression. What is broken is not the gear progression but instead is the instance progression difficulty. To give an example, I can VERY easily 2-box the first named in Temple of Rallos Zek with my SK and Inquisitor in Ry'gor armor with a couple of TOFS x2 pieces and the rest instance gear from TOFS, Velketor and Kael. However, in the very next zone in the heroic progression, Spire of Rage, we struggled with 6 similarly geared toons/players with a few wipes on the first name. I'm sure it would get easier with repetition, but we are left wondering why bother. The gear isn't worth having for the most part it is way harder and takes way longer to run than Kael so why continue there. So we work on alts in TOFS, Velketor and Kael instead of moving forward on our mains in Drunder.</blockquote>Yep..and in reality the PQ stuff is still too good probably, but meh, I do NOT want them to nerf it at this point, as there's no point in doing so and it would just hurt the playerbase and people would quit, sigh.I think the instance progression difficulty and the gear progression are both borked, though. TOFS gear often worse than PQ, definately worse once u take into account set bonuses. The progression from TOFS-->Rime-->Kael is great though--works fine imho. (PQ gear shoulda been made a little bit worse than tofs, but not much, but enough that you'd want to wear the tofs peices but that's not here nor ther). The progression from launch EM-->HM raids was fine as well imho though I know people will disagree. This BP was clearly designed to be the one worn by people who were starting EM raids (and will be worn by many into hard mode). Nerfing it now is not good.I'd be fine with a nerf IF the drunder bp was obtainable in ry'gorr gear with similar difficulty to spire bp with PQ gear. But you pretty much need raid gear. Not to mention you could then spend ur time 1 grouping something with better gear than drunder, like tofs x2. It's kind of silly...heroic progression is borked. <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Top end raid progression was borked by one mob until recently, right? Fortunately we are doing some launch HM stuff (just getting into it) which is a nice smooth progression, way it should be imho. Right now i'm just supremely thankful i have raid chest or spire chest on all my guys and not torz one!

Onodi

09-27-2011, 08:40 PM

I tend to agree with Umub here on the discrepency between Kael and Drunder instances. I do like the idea of the end game heroic content being harder for the endgame players to do something between raids. After GU61 that target is now EoW (or HM ToRZ). With that said if the Dev's are going to finally adjust the BPs and try to push the general population into Drunder they better adjust its difficulty a bit so that more people can get in there. Also if they are going to like i said push people into Drunder BPs then the overall set needs to be adjusted accordingly to make it more desireable over the Ry'gorr from a Challenge vs. Reward perspective. This includes adjusting the resource requirement to make the gear (or just kobosh the ore and put it on the shard system).Noticed today that Drunder Heroic BPs are now red adorn instead of yellow adorn so step in the right direction. Just need to make more challenge adjustments to get general acceptace of Drunder in addition to adding it to the DD/DOM/HZ list perhaps. Once the next set of instances arrive after EoW I'd expect Drunder to be at about the difficulty of a Velks/Kael instance set for the general population instead of leaving a deviding line between the Raiders and the Casual players (which to a point Drunder sort of is now).

Raviel

09-27-2011, 08:46 PM

drunder is VERY much doable with rygorr armor and kael instanced jewelry, the content has been nerfed twice already. if you still cannot do drunder heroics, its not because the zones are too hard.

Onodi

09-27-2011, 09:23 PM

<cite>Raviel wrote:</cite><blockquote>drunder is VERY much doable with rygorr armor and kael instanced jewelry, the content has been nerfed twice already. if you still cannot do drunder heroics, its not because the zones are too hard.</blockquote>Not saying its not doable, however the step to get into there is still wider and needs to be smoothed. If not in difficulty then something else.Look at the step between Velks and Kael and you tell me that the Kael / Drunder gap is roughly the same. I'm not saying its not doable Rav, I'm saying why do you only see about a dozen people on Guk forming up these groups and there should be a general move for the population to run these more with the bump into EoW for those better geared. Overall the population has moved into the Kael instances we are just not seeing that with Drunder.While I run it w/o issue on my main, I have an alt in Ry'gorr and the Drunder BP and he still checks in just below the 190/210 CM/CC check that is the defacto standard for an invite. So toss in the requirement for perhaps x2 ToFS jewlery/weapons but like I said how does this compare the the pickup requiremnts for ToFS/Velks and even Kael (within reason). I'm looking at the larger picture here and if the heroic end game target shifts to a new set of instances the larger population should already be sticking their head into the preivous challenging tier and we just do not see that. Some of that is due to the risk/reward (itemizaion), some might have been due to the stigma of the challenge before adjustments have been made. With the potential reduction in the ToRZ BP coming (after the dev's fix the Mit ops on today's hotfix) its not going to help the argument of more people running the Drunder content, gearing through raid channel purchases or via greed wins on mains isn't a good solution either.Anyway we are getting off topic talking about Drunder's difficulty (bad or good), really the argument is over the BP adjustments (although consideration for the zones needs to be taken into account).

Psykotic

09-27-2011, 09:26 PM

Just a not on the original topic :I saw the patch notes saying the mitigation was fixed. Currently it is not. My characters with the BP's still show 20-30 mitigation.

Onodi

09-27-2011, 09:28 PM

just posted by gninja for a hotfix slated for tomorrow:<ul><li><div>Temple of Rallos Zek non-challenge BP mitigation values should be fixed.</div></li><li><div>Temple of Rallos Zek non-challenge BP crit mit should be at 34%.</div></li></ul><li><div></div><div>So the ToRZ Chests are taking a 3% reduction in CM to come in balance with the other chests that should be consiered a higher risk/reward value (tofsx2, drunder, drunder x2). Figured this was coming just to bad its a reality now.</div></li>

Psykotic

09-27-2011, 09:37 PM

My bad was posted under game update notes, usually they don't post ahead of time. So ridiculous that they weren't hotfixed immediately. What are people using them supposed to do tonight? Not play? Things like this make me wonder what the heck is going on with the team these days...

Onodi

09-28-2011, 11:43 AM

so this is the fixed BP... less CB than the rime with .4 CM higher and a little more mitigation increase...Gninja we sure this is the going forward i just scratch my head and see pretty much a wash now these or rather I lean to the rime BP because of the CB...<img src="http://i109.photobucket.com/albums/n70/lnolte/Capture.jpg" />

Boethius_Permafrost

09-28-2011, 12:01 PM

This clearly does not fit progression. It just swaps one progression issue for another. And I'm paid through February, dangit. Granted, it only hurts a few alts for me, but it seems like the majority of the player base is negatively impacted for no good reason.

Nrgy

09-28-2011, 12:57 PM

Just pick something and leave it alone ... come on all ready!! This whole bouncing back and forth is long since been old! <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Amanathia

09-28-2011, 03:44 PM

Raviel

09-28-2011, 07:14 PM

<cite>Amanathia wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Raviel wrote:</cite><blockquote>drunder is VERY much doable with rygorr armor and kael instanced jewelry, the content has been nerfed twice already. if you still cannot do drunder heroics, its not because the zones are too hard.</blockquote>Yeah, no. Perhaps with a perfect group makeup and extremely good players.I mean, i've cleared tower of tactics a couple times with some great players, and there is no way that the average pug in ry'gorr armor would have any chance whatsoever.</blockquote>you dont need an amazing group to clear these zones, i dont care if people shouting for the zones are looking for 190 crit mit+, tower of tactics only REQUIRES 130, as drunder buff packages include innate crit bonus. You may need a proper group makeup, oh no. Theyre not meant to be faceroll easy instances, so if you need to bring in a 2nd healer and finesse through things, do it, its not impossible. I've tanked sor and ss with rygorr geared tank alts, and ive been solo healed through the zones on my raid geared tanks by rygorr or worse geared healers. I'll say it again, and i mean no offense by this, if you cannot clear drunder, and meet the minimum gear reqs, its not because the zones are too hard, its because you or key players in your group are not playing up to par.As far as people not doing these zones go, imo its the same mentality that keeps people doing pqs and pools/ascent every day, theyre comfortable doing the easy stuff. I still see people who dont touch kael zones because theyre "too hard".

Felshades

09-28-2011, 07:50 PM

<cite>Onodi@Guk wrote:</cite><blockquote>so this is the fixed BP... less CB than the rime with .4 CM higher and a little more mitigation increase...Gninja we sure this is the going forward i just scratch my head and see pretty much a wash now these or rather I lean to the rime BP because of the CB...<img src="http://i109.photobucket.com/albums/n70/lnolte/Capture.jpg" /></blockquote>Considering torz is easier than spires on a bad day, I'd say it's fine.I hate that guy with the worms...

Umub

09-28-2011, 07:54 PM

<cite>Raviel wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Amanathia wrote:</cite>you dont need an amazing group to clear these zones, i dont care if people shouting for the zones are looking for 190 crit mit+, tower of tactics only REQUIRES 130, as drunder buff packages include innate crit bonus. You may need a proper group makeup, oh no. Theyre not meant to be faceroll easy instances, so if you need to bring in a 2nd healer and finesse through things, do it, its not impossible. I've tanked sor and ss with rygorr geared tank alts, and ive been solo healed through the zones on my raid geared tanks by rygorr or worse geared healers. I'll say it again, and i mean no offense by this, if you cannot clear drunder, and meet the minimum gear reqs, its not because the zones are too hard, its because you or key players in your group are not playing up to par.As far as people not doing these zones go, imo its the same mentality that keeps people doing pqs and pools/ascent every day, theyre comfortable doing the easy stuff. I still see people who dont touch kael zones because theyre "too hard".</blockquote>I haven't been so very far into these zones but the parts I have been in are certainly doable. However, in terms of progression there is a big problem. The group I run with regularly isn't uber but we clear Rime Spire and IK with no difficulty at all, even short handed or 2 of us 2 boxing. Thrones and Temple are not a problem (i.e. 0 deaths/drama expected) except for the last fight in each which does take more effort.And like I said I am sure we will get better/faster at the Drunder zones. But for at least the first few names in Spire of Rage the step up in difficulty was quite steep from the Temple which is supposed to be it's immediate predeccessor in heroic progression. And here's the kicker the drops weren't worth having. So we spend 2 hours learning a new zone which is significantly harder than the previous one and the gear isn't an upgrade for any of us. And looking at the Drunder crafted armor compared to ry'gor we just see countless hours of grinding the zone to "mute" the useless drops for amor that is a modest step up.I won't speak for anyone else but for the non-raiding group I hang around with the progression is much more like this:<ul><li>Run Ascent/Spire especially if DD or HZ for shards and alt gear</li><li>Run Kael for a few more upgrades for mains and shards/gear/gems for alts</li><li>Run OOA, TPR, etc. for plat to buy some EOW gear</li><li>Now run Drunder</li></ul>If the gear we saw from Drunder (crafted or dropped) was better and/or the zones were a bit more gradual on the difficulty increase we would probably just opt for the immediate Drunder learning curve but as it stands now its not too likely.

Amanathia

09-28-2011, 08:53 PM

Sure they are doable if everyone is a great player and the group makeup is good, etc, but they are insanely more difficulty than the kael zones. People can argue about players not being good or whatever, doesn't really matter to me. Yes, i've cleared ToT, etc, so I know you can do the zones. But the average group that progresses along from ascent to spire to the kael zones, etc, will get completely roflstomped when they go into spire (especially by 2nd boss).I doubt more than 5% of lvl90s have cleared ToT. Which would be fine if the gear were great. We aren't talking about hard mode loot here folks. We're talking about a zone that is *harder than tofs x2 is for one group, harder and requires a lot more coordination than most em x4 raid content*, yet drops stuff that is not very good. We aren't talking about EoW here which has good loot. And nowhere did I complain about the crit mit requirements here, they are fine, that isn't the issue at all. The issue is the extreme difficulty jump from the kael zones to the drunder zones compared to the gear. The issue is why would anyone waste their time here in any of the zones (cept for the one zone for the mount chance) when if you can clear it you can do things that drop better stuff?And this change just makes that worse. Then they've removed the crit mit requirement from the kael zones, why? Those zones posed a decent challenge but were in no way too difficult at this point.

camynyraen

09-28-2011, 09:50 PM

Something that was bugged on test made it to live and was a stupid idea to begin with. Bravo SOE. Add 3 accounts to those leaving this game because we are sick of paying to get crapped on by people who have no idea what they are doing.

Hamervelder

09-28-2011, 11:57 PM

<cite>Lawrs@Permafrost wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Kringus wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Gninja wrote:</cite><blockquote>The mitigation is obviously bugged. We will get it fixed asap. The crit mit we are looking into and I will have to get back to you guys when I have more information about what happened.</blockquote>Let me respectfully suggest that you include a code review prior to letting this stuff loose on the live server.I'll make no mention of anyone having ignored test server feedback.</blockquote>SOE neither has the skills or budget to do those things. Even if they DID have the skills or budget, they still wouldn't do them because they just don't care.</blockquote>I would wager that the people who are actually doing the development actually do care. If their workload is anything like what I've had to do in the past when doing IT and game design, though, then they probably have neither the time they need, nor the support from their supervisors to get things done right. <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />