It's time for a "Dirge quit" thread [Archive]

ccarro

09-15-2011, 06:06 PM

The change to our myth buff is crap. Time to cancel.

Yimway

09-15-2011, 06:12 PM

Surely you saw this comming, and given the proc stats, it was the most padded nerf bat I've seen in a while.It could be worse, you could have the Fury Mythical =)

Buzzing

09-15-2011, 06:15 PM

<cite>Circadian@Unrest_old wrote:</cite><blockquote>The change to our myth buff is crap. Time to cancel.</blockquote>I Really don't think a stacking 25% flurry buff will be nearly the nerf you think will be. it will be a nerf but it could be way worse.

Lcneed

09-15-2011, 06:33 PM

Lets be real. Don't think too many would actually cancel. Many of the dirges were either alts or betrayed because of the mythical. They (including me) would either just play other characters or betray back. The rest of them don't care about the mythical and just like playing dirge.I think the reason they gave for changing the dirge mythical is going the wrong direction. What it said is the they don't want it to "grow" with the other stats. I think a class defining Mythical power should grow with the character. So much time was spent in designing the epic quests and weapons, why would they want to throw all them away? In the direction it is going, in a few years many of the mythicals would become obsolete.Change all the mythicals so they would grow with the characters. Make the mythical as desirable at level 100 as at level 80.

Felshades

09-15-2011, 06:34 PM

<cite>Buzzing@Butcherblock wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Circadian@Unrest_old wrote:</cite><blockquote>The change to our myth buff is crap. Time to cancel.</blockquote>I Really don't think a stacking 25% flurry buff will be nearly the nerf you think will be. it will be a nerf but it could be way worse.</blockquote>the cap on those stats will make it pointless to keep up other than raidwide cob and the riana's buff. If you're capped on flurry, then... yeah.

Talathion

09-15-2011, 06:45 PM

where is this change?

Faildozer

09-15-2011, 06:45 PM

sony needs to redo ALL combat arts (scouts and fighters included) so that they scale closer to mage spells and then that damage is supplemented with auto attack damage which can be scaled back some in terms of the amount of double attack on gear. Basically stacking multi attack can only keep scouts competitive for so long and leaves fighters behind in the dust because they get half as much MA from their gear. The fighter thing wouldnt be as big of an issue if fighters didnt rely on dps for aggro since taunts are pointless.Sony, the dirge myth buff is not the problem, you guys putting in 600ma, 30-50 flurry depending on the scout, 300+ dps mod and haste to keep scouts competitive with mages is only going to help until more gear comes out and mages still scale better and you have to double the amounts of melee skills to keep up. Fix combat art damage and you dont have to nerf the dirge myth.

Felshades

09-15-2011, 06:46 PM

<cite>Talathion@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>where is this change?</blockquote>test update notes.

Yimway

09-15-2011, 06:47 PM

<cite>Talathion@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>where is this change?</blockquote>Might read the test update notes before checkin the testing forums.

Talathion

09-15-2011, 06:48 PM

You got 25% Flurry/25% Potency instead.

Yimway

09-15-2011, 06:53 PM

<cite>Talathion@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>You got 25% Flurry/25% Potency instead.</blockquote>Yeap, but even that is a nerf compaired to what the thing was orriginally.I'm interested to see what improvements the troub myth gets since they are being examined as well.

Felshades

09-15-2011, 07:04 PM

<cite>Talathion@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>You got 25% Flurry/25% Potency instead.</blockquote>Flurry has a cap.

Geothe

09-15-2011, 07:10 PM

<cite>Nadirah@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Talathion@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>You got 25% Flurry/25% Potency instead.</blockquote>Flurry has a cap.</blockquote>which currently on live only assassins can get half-way to with top gear.

Talathion

09-15-2011, 07:17 PM

well atleast its not like I have 280% AOE autoattack when 100% is the cap.But Bad Mythical Caps isn't the discussion <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Felshades

09-15-2011, 07:25 PM

<cite>Geothe wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Nadirah@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Talathion@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>You got 25% Flurry/25% Potency instead.</blockquote>Flurry has a cap.</blockquote>which currently on live only assassins can get half-way to with top gear.</blockquote>Doesn't mean that we won't be hitting it next expansion.

Talathion

09-15-2011, 07:26 PM

<cite>Nadirah@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Geothe wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Nadirah@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Talathion@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>You got 25% Flurry/25% Potency instead.</blockquote>Flurry has a cap.</blockquote>which currently on live only assassins can get half-way to with top gear.</blockquote>Doesn't mean that we won't be hitting it next expansion.</blockquote>Lots of caps need removed.

Gungo

09-15-2011, 07:35 PM

<cite>Nadirah@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Geothe wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Nadirah@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Talathion@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>You got 25% Flurry/25% Potency instead.</blockquote>Flurry has a cap.</blockquote>which currently on live only assassins can get half-way to with top gear.</blockquote>Doesn't mean that we won't be hitting it next expansion.</blockquote>I doubt that soon considering they just uncapped alot of stuff and added spell auto to itemization.The only stat that really needs to be uncapped now is AOE auto and that is because its easily overcapped by a few classes.

LygerT

09-15-2011, 08:04 PM

no more AFKing, i ragequit!

Grrimreaper

09-15-2011, 08:37 PM

There is absolutely no reason to change the dirge myth buff, unless you plan on revamping the class abilities at the same time. Massive amounts of players betrayed to dirge for this very buff. It places dirges exactly where they should be on parses.But if you do plan on following through with this at least make it crit bonus instead of potency, we arent troubs (at least not until the nerf hits).

Geothe

09-15-2011, 08:41 PM

<cite>Disgusting@Permafrost wrote:</cite><blockquote>There is absolutely no reason to change the dirge myth buff, unless you plan on revamping the class abilities at the same time. Massive amounts of players betrayed to dirge for this very buff. It places dirges exactly where they should be on parses.But if you do plan on following through with this at least make it crit bonus instead of potency, we arent troubs (at least not until the nerf hits).</blockquote>LOL.Yeah, no.Dirge myth in its current state on Live is extremely OP and only becomes more so with every expansion.It needed to be changed, and it is still the best myth out there.

minichimi

09-15-2011, 09:06 PM

<cite>Geothe wrote:</cite><blockquote>it is still the best myth out there.</blockquote>Because Spirit Tap, Cleansing of the Soul, Touch of Life, Strikethrough, Whirlwind, Nature's Restoration aren't that great.

TwistedFaith

09-15-2011, 09:09 PM

Only way to fix a class (troub) is to nerf another class (dirge) it's the SOE way of thinking and the reason why this game will simply eventually die out.

Lempo

09-15-2011, 09:19 PM

<cite>TwistedFaith wrote:</cite><blockquote>Only way to fix a class (troub) is to nerf another class (dirge) it's the SOE way of thinking and the reason why this game will simply eventually die out.</blockquote>No they are fixing Troubs by evaluating them and making some changes to their spells/combat arts and maybe AA's, you know those changes that Dirges along with EVERY other class in updates since DoV was released all of which either excluded Troubs or it was a shared between them and Dirges. The Dirge mythical was OP everyone knew it, even the dirges and they knew it was coming down the pipeline. They are doing the same thing to Dirges now that they are doing for Troubs they are fixing them, you just don't like the direction, so betray or reroll idc.

ccarro

09-15-2011, 10:41 PM

<cite>Talathion@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>You got 25% Flurry/25% Potency instead.</blockquote>Potency? rofl

ccarro

09-15-2011, 10:43 PM

<cite>Lempo@Everfrost wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>TwistedFaith wrote:</cite><blockquote>Only way to fix a class (troub) is to nerf another class (dirge) it's the SOE way of thinking and the reason why this game will simply eventually die out.</blockquote>No they are fixing Troubs by evaluating them and making some changes to their spells/combat arts and maybe AA's, you know those changes that Dirges along with EVERY other class in updates since DoV was released all of which either excluded Troubs or it was a shared between them and Dirges. The Dirge mythical was OP everyone knew it, even the dirges and they knew it was coming down the pipeline. They are doing the same thing to Dirges now that they are doing for Troubs they are fixing them, you just don't like the direction, so betray or reroll idc.</blockquote>The dirge myth was what made playing a dirge fun. Needless to say, I terminated my account today. There is no reason to keep playing a game the devs insist on making worse with each update.

Lempo

09-15-2011, 11:01 PM

<cite>Circadian@Unrest_old wrote:</cite><blockquote>The dirge myth was what made playing a dirge fun. Needless to say, I terminated my account today. There is no reason to keep playing a game the devs insist on making worse with each update.</blockquote>Whatever. You must be one easy person to entertain if your 'myth' was what made the game entertaining enough for you to play.It isn't even thinly veiled. What's the problem? Are you a terrible player that can parse good enough for instance groups because of the OP buff and now you know you won't be able to get groups?Just make sure to give someone your stuff before your account expires, be a shame for it to sit and go to waste.The update isn't live yet, the nerf may be toned down some none of you know yet, they may modify some of your stuff in conjunction with the troubs. What is clear without a doubt is your myth was OP you had it for a long time now you may have to alter your style to pickup some of the DPS you lose from the mythical. That or you can choose to run away crying foul before it even hits and you try it.

TwistedFaith

09-15-2011, 11:17 PM

At this point in the games lifecycle nerfing what is a fun class that people enjoy playing is not what SOE should be doing. What exactly has been acheived here, you have lowered dirge dps so some slack so called top tier dps can feel better about themselves and you have annoyed a bunch of dirges.People can talk about balance all their want but this is not a new game. SOE's main objective should be to make the game as fun as possible. New players are not going to suddenly stream into EQ2 so the emphasis should be on the current players.SOE should be looking at all the classes and making them as fun to play as possible. The troub changes look kinda meh to me, where's the fun, where's the thing that is going to make people want to play a troub?

Gaige

09-15-2011, 11:22 PM

<cite>Circadian@Unrest_old wrote:</cite><blockquote>The dirge myth was what made playing a dirge fun. Needless to say, I terminated my account today. There is no reason to keep playing a game the devs insist on making worse with each update.</blockquote>If having 60% of your dps happen just by standing in melee range is "fun" I feel sorry for you.

TwistedFaith

09-15-2011, 11:27 PM

<cite>Gaige wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Circadian@Unrest_old wrote:</cite><blockquote>The dirge myth was what made playing a dirge fun. Needless to say, I terminated my account today. There is no reason to keep playing a game the devs insist on making worse with each update.</blockquote>If having 60% of your dps happen just by standing in melee range is "fun" I feel sorry for you.</blockquote>Time to nerf rangers?

Lempo

09-15-2011, 11:31 PM

<cite>TwistedFaith wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Gaige wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Circadian@Unrest_old wrote:</cite><blockquote>The dirge myth was what made playing a dirge fun. Needless to say, I terminated my account today. There is no reason to keep playing a game the devs insist on making worse with each update.</blockquote>If having 60% of your dps happen just by standing in melee range is "fun" I feel sorry for you.</blockquote>Time to nerf rangers? </blockquote>Is their mythical OP?

Bruener

09-15-2011, 11:32 PM

<cite>Nadirah@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Geothe wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Nadirah@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Talathion@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>You got 25% Flurry/25% Potency instead.</blockquote>Flurry has a cap.</blockquote>which currently on live only assassins can get half-way to with top gear.</blockquote>Doesn't mean that we won't be hitting it next expansion.</blockquote>Doubt they plan on itemizing it much more since just like MA it just causes a lot more processing for the mechanic.

TwistedFaith

09-15-2011, 11:35 PM

<cite>Lempo@Everfrost wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>TwistedFaith wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Gaige wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Circadian@Unrest_old wrote:</cite><blockquote>The dirge myth was what made playing a dirge fun. Needless to say, I terminated my account today. There is no reason to keep playing a game the devs insist on making worse with each update.</blockquote>If having 60% of your dps happen just by standing in melee range is "fun" I feel sorry for you.</blockquote>Time to nerf rangers? </blockquote>Is their mythical OP?</blockquote>the class itself is overpowered as they can stand still and 60% of their dps comes from autoattack

Grrimreaper

09-15-2011, 11:38 PM

The class abilities on a dirge are so weak it make the myth proc not OP.

Onorem

09-15-2011, 11:45 PM

<cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote>Doubt they plan on itemizing it much more since just like MA it just causes a lot more processing for the mechanic.</blockquote>They plan itemizing? Since when?

ccarro

09-15-2011, 11:47 PM

<cite>Gaige wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Circadian@Unrest_old wrote:</cite><blockquote>The dirge myth was what made playing a dirge fun. Needless to say, I terminated my account today. There is no reason to keep playing a game the devs insist on making worse with each update.</blockquote>If having 60% of your dps happen just by standing in melee range is "fun" I feel sorry for you.</blockquote>Ignorant as usual. If anyone is just standing around then they are flat out garbage and should quit the game (can you take a hint???) The buff defined the dirge class. Taking the proc away that has been there for years and replacing it with potency is flat out dumb. And even if you agreed, you'd still argue about it anyway, so I won’t bother any further.

Mosha D'Khan

09-15-2011, 11:56 PM

atleast make it CB not pot if you are going to change it

ccarro

09-15-2011, 11:58 PM

<cite>Lempo@Everfrost wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Circadian@Unrest_old wrote:</cite><blockquote>The dirge myth was what made playing a dirge fun. Needless to say, I terminated my account today. There is no reason to keep playing a game the devs insist on making worse with each update.</blockquote>Whatever. You must be one easy person to entertain if your 'myth' was what made the game entertaining enough for you to play.It isn't even thinly veiled. What's the problem? Are you a terrible player that can parse good enough for instance groups because of the OP buff and now you know you won't be able to get groups?Just make sure to give someone your stuff before your account expires, be a shame for it to sit and go to waste.The update isn't live yet, the nerf may be toned down some none of you know yet, they may modify some of your stuff in conjunction with the troubs. What is clear without a doubt is your myth was OP you had it for a long time now you may have to alter your style to pickup some of the DPS you lose from the mythical. That or you can choose to run away crying foul before it even hits and you try it.</blockquote>So many assumptions. The myth was one of the things I liked about the dirge class, and I really don't care one way or another of your opinion of me for liking that aspect of the class. Everyone enjoys a specific class for some reason more then others. If I continued to subscribe I would have no issue getting groups and never have since launch and I fail to see how that has anything to do with the issue. The myth was not OP, it was in line with how weak all the dirge spells and CA's are. The only people that felt the dirge myth was OP were the cry baby troubs. In fact the dirge class was the only class that has been mostly untouched for the longest (another reasonwhy I liked the class...they didn't keep screwing with it)I have no desire to keep my subscription. Since when has SOE ever listened to anything the player base has ever said. I have no doubt this nerf will hit the live servers (and well before it's even thouroughly tested). Call it running away if you want, I prefer to call it "moving on".

Kunaak

09-16-2011, 12:02 AM

of course you liked it....whats not to like about a buff that allows for max damage, + crit bonus, potency, flurry and double attack?200k parse - 160k comes from auto attack - whats not to like, a bot toon can do that. playing dirges make everyone think they are amazing at that class.

Monotone

09-16-2011, 12:05 AM

<cite>Circadian@Unrest_old wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Gaige wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Circadian@Unrest_old wrote:</cite><blockquote>The dirge myth was what made playing a dirge fun. Needless to say, I terminated my account today. There is no reason to keep playing a game the devs insist on making worse with each update.</blockquote>If having 60% of your dps happen just by standing in melee range is "fun" I feel sorry for you.</blockquote>Ignorant as usual. If anyone is just standing around then they are flat out garbage and should quit the game (can you take a hint???) The buff defined the dirge class. Taking the proc away that has been there for years and replacing it with potency is flat out dumb. And even if you agreed, you'd still argue about it anyway, so I won’t bother any further.</blockquote>You call someone ignorant yet you are the one quitting over something that needed to be nerfed prior. I play a dirge and I dont plan on quitting over this. It has been coming for a while now. You dont need an OP myth to parse. Learn to play, you will still parse well, just not as well due to a nerf + you will need some skill to play now other than auto attack on...afk.

Kunaak

09-16-2011, 12:16 AM

for you dirges complaining that 25 flurry, 25 potency isnt enough....just remember, your counterpart - troubs.know what we get from our mythical buff? 15 crit.... our mythical buf is such a joke, its barely noticeable on a parse. theres still a massive divide between troubs and dirges as far as mythical buffs go, and thats still not enough?play a troub for a day, then ask yourself what 25 flurry and 25 potency sounds like....

TwistedFaith

09-16-2011, 12:24 AM

<cite>Kunaak wrote:</cite><blockquote>for you dirges complaining that 25 flurry, 25 potency isnt enough....just remember, your counterpart - troubs.know what we get from our mythical buff? 15 crit.... our mythical buf is such a joke, its barely noticeable on a parse. theres still a massive divide between troubs and dirges as far as mythical buffs go, and thats still not enough?play a troub for a day, then ask yourself what 25 flurry and 25 potency sounds like....</blockquote>Then SOE should be buffing troubs! This culture of nerf one class to appease another is such a bad policy at this stage in EQ2s lifecycle. It does nothing whatsoever for the game in terms of maintaining the playerbase and making people want to stick around.As far as i'm concerned SOE should have buffed troubs and given them something that makes them fun to play rather than nerf troubs. What has been achieved here exactly? SOE have annoyed a bunch of dirges, some will just quit, and you have slightly boosted troubs but in such a way that still nobody will play them. It's such a bad way of doing things, SOE should be bending over backwards to maintain it's current playerbase, rather than making changes like this.

ccarro

09-16-2011, 12:27 AM

<cite>Monotonex@Oasis wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Circadian@Unrest_old wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Gaige wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Circadian@Unrest_old wrote:</cite><blockquote>The dirge myth was what made playing a dirge fun. Needless to say, I terminated my account today. There is no reason to keep playing a game the devs insist on making worse with each update.</blockquote>If having 60% of your dps happen just by standing in melee range is "fun" I feel sorry for you.</blockquote>Ignorant as usual. If anyone is just standing around then they are flat out garbage and should quit the game (can you take a hint???) The buff defined the dirge class. Taking the proc away that has been there for years and replacing it with potency is flat out dumb. And even if you agreed, you'd still argue about it anyway, so I won’t bother any further.</blockquote>You call someone ignorant yet you are the one quitting over something that needed to be nerfed prior. I play a dirge and I dont plan on quitting over this. It has been coming for a while now. You dont need an OP myth to parse. Learn to play, you will still parse well, just not as well due to a nerf + you will need some skill to play now other than auto attack on...afk.</blockquote>Yes, ignorant indeed. I know how to play and I can play well. With or without the myth proc. I don't like the all the changes that are constantly making the game worse. Broken patches, things being pushed to live untested, and the closed ears of SOE devs to their player base. You should get to know someone before assuming you know their skill level. Otherwise you just prove my point.

ccarro

09-16-2011, 12:34 AM

<cite>TwistedFaith wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Kunaak wrote:</cite><blockquote>for you dirges complaining that 25 flurry, 25 potency isnt enough....just remember, your counterpart - troubs.know what we get from our mythical buff? 15 crit.... our mythical buf is such a joke, its barely noticeable on a parse. theres still a massive divide between troubs and dirges as far as mythical buffs go, and thats still not enough?play a troub for a day, then ask yourself what 25 flurry and 25 potency sounds like....</blockquote>Then SOE should be buffing troubs! This culture of nerf one class to appease another is such a bad policy at this stage in EQ2s lifecycle. It does nothing whatsoever for the game in terms of maintaining the playerbase and making people want to stick around.As far as i'm concerned SOE should have buffed troubs and given them something that makes them fun to play rather than nerf troubs. What has been achieved here exactly? SOE have annoyed a bunch of dirges, some will just quit, and you have slightly boosted troubs but in such a way that still nobody will play them. It's such a bad way of doing things, SOE should be bending over backwards to maintain it's current playerbase, rather than making changes like this. </blockquote>You said this well. The good dirges will parse slightly less, the crap dirges will thankfully be crap again. Either way you look at it, it's a nerf and nobody likes nerfs (and nerfs and nerfs and nerfs, etc.).

Monotone

09-16-2011, 12:40 AM

<cite>Circadian@Unrest_old wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Monotonex@Oasis wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Circadian@Unrest_old wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Gaige wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Circadian@Unrest_old wrote:</cite><blockquote>The dirge myth was what made playing a dirge fun. Needless to say, I terminated my account today. There is no reason to keep playing a game the devs insist on making worse with each update.</blockquote>If having 60% of your dps happen just by standing in melee range is "fun" I feel sorry for you.</blockquote>Ignorant as usual. If anyone is just standing around then they are flat out garbage and should quit the game (can you take a hint???) The buff defined the dirge class. Taking the proc away that has been there for years and replacing it with potency is flat out dumb. And even if you agreed, you'd still argue about it anyway, so I won’t bother any further.</blockquote>You call someone ignorant yet you are the one quitting over something that needed to be nerfed prior. I play a dirge and I dont plan on quitting over this. It has been coming for a while now. You dont need an OP myth to parse. Learn to play, you will still parse well, just not as well due to a nerf + you will need some skill to play now other than auto attack on...afk.</blockquote>Yes, ignorant indeed. I know how to play and I can play well. With or without the myth proc. I don't like the all the changes that are constantly making the game worse. Broken patches, things being pushed to live untested, and the closed ears of SOE devs to their player base. You should get to know someone before assuming you know their skill level. Otherwise you just prove my point.</blockquote>

Monotone

09-16-2011, 12:43 AM

<cite>Circadian@Unrest_old wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Monotonex@Oasis wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Circadian@Unrest_old wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Gaige wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Circadian@Unrest_old wrote:</cite><blockquote>The dirge myth was what made playing a dirge fun. Needless to say, I terminated my account today. There is no reason to keep playing a game the devs insist on making worse with each update.</blockquote>If having 60% of your dps happen just by standing in melee range is "fun" I feel sorry for you.</blockquote>Ignorant as usual. If anyone is just standing around then they are flat out garbage and should quit the game (can you take a hint???) The buff defined the dirge class. Taking the proc away that has been there for years and replacing it with potency is flat out dumb. And even if you agreed, you'd still argue about it anyway, so I won’t bother any further.</blockquote>You call someone ignorant yet you are the one quitting over something that needed to be nerfed prior. I play a dirge and I dont plan on quitting over this. It has been coming for a while now. You dont need an OP myth to parse. Learn to play, you will still parse well, just not as well due to a nerf + you will need some skill to play now other than auto attack on...afk.</blockquote>Yes, ignorant indeed. I know how to play and I can play well. With or without the myth proc. I don't like the all the changes that are constantly making the game worse. Broken patches, things being pushed to live untested, and the closed ears of SOE devs to their player base. You should get to know someone before assuming you know their skill level. Otherwise you just prove my point.</blockquote>All your complaints have been going on for a long long time now. You already pointed out you quitting over this change. This change isnt making game worse, With change after change to make auto attack more powerful it has made the myth proc way op. It has been needed. So try again on trying to change the reason you are quitting.

Kunaak

09-16-2011, 12:47 AM

<cite>TwistedFaith wrote:</cite><blockquote>Then SOE should be buffing troubs! This culture of nerf one class to appease another is such a bad policy at this stage in EQ2s lifecycle. It does nothing whatsoever for the game in terms of maintaining the playerbase and making people want to stick around.As far as i'm concerned SOE should have buffed troubs and given them something that makes them fun to play rather than nerf troubs. What has been achieved here exactly? SOE have annoyed a bunch of dirges, some will just quit, and you have slightly boosted troubs but in such a way that still nobody will play them. It's such a bad way of doing things, SOE should be bending over backwards to maintain it's current playerbase, rather than making changes like this. </blockquote>indeed - but you cant honestly think a proc that allows max damage + all the benifits of flurry, crit bonus and MA, to go on forever unchecked.this has been a long time coming, the fact we got 6 months into a expansion with it, is more surprising. we all saw this coming at launch, when dirges with little more then 2-3 EM pieces of gear, all the sudden started doubling thier parse from SF.

Novusod

09-16-2011, 04:02 AM

Please don't make it so it is harder to find dirges.

feldon30

09-16-2011, 04:24 AM

<cite>Talathion@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>well atleast its not like I have 280% AOE autoattack when 100% is the cap.But Bad Mythical Caps isn't the discussion <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" /></blockquote>I will not uselessly derail threads.I will not uselessly derail threads.I will not uselessly derail threads.I will not uselessly derail threads.I will not uselessly derail threads.

Gaige

09-16-2011, 04:29 AM

<cite>Circadian@Unrest_old wrote:</cite><blockquote>The buff defined the dirge class.</blockquote>For the wrong reasons. Max melee as a dirge makes no sense, since dirges do not exist for their own DPS but to facilitate the DPS of others. It was also completey out of control, as this expansion can attest.If that proc is make or break of you playing the game, I just think you're overreacting.

theriatis

09-16-2011, 05:05 AM

<cite>feldon30 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Talathion@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>well atleast its not like I have 280% AOE autoattack when 100% is the cap.But Bad Mythical Caps isn't the discussion <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" /></blockquote>I will not uselessly derail threads.I will not uselessly derail threads.I will not uselessly derail threads.I will not uselessly derail threads.I will not uselessly derail threads.</blockquote>Good Point.I copy&paste that the next time someone derails Wizard made Threads (because every other class seems to just have fun to bash them <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />)Troubas got some love with the Update. Don't know if it is good love or some dirty one <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />I would give Dirges a faster Rezz. The Floors are to cold for lying around for too long <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />Regards, theriatis.

Boli32

09-16-2011, 06:15 AM

The change kind of makes me wonder WHERE it has bene balanced against.Lets take the CA/Spell change first, taking information from <a href="http://eq2.wikia.com/wiki/Thuri%27s_Doleful_Thrust_VIII" target="_blank">eq2 wiki</a> we can see the spread of damage is 332-553 for the expert lvl 88 basic melee attackWith the old dirge myth proc, this spells will hit for max damage all the time (553)With the new dirge myth proc, this CA will hit for 25% more damage instead, but keep the spread (415 - 691) - the average of the damage will be quite surprsingly 553 damage.Ramp these numbers right up 332-553 with 200% potency is 996-1659 old dirge myth will cause these to hit for 1659332-553 with 225% potency (with new proc running) is 1079-1797 or average hit 1438 -- a NERF of approximatly 13% if you have ~ 200% potency.So we can see quite easily that the 25% potency proc is balanced perfectly if you consider that a dirge HAS no potency; BUT the old dirge proc only effected CAs in that matter, so all a dirges SPELL DAMAGE is increased as well... hmmm this makes it more interesting. <a href="http://eq2.wikia.com/wiki/Luda%27s_Nefarious_Wail_VIII" target="_blank">A Standard Spell attack</a> under the old mythical did 1048-1745 and an average of 1396 per hit (or 3144-5235 av. 4189 under 200% potency)With the new myth proc we are looking at (225% potency so 3406-5671, av. 453<img src="/eq2/images/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" /> or an 8% increase in spell damage with the new proc.OK, that is less exciting than orginally thought BUT remember potency effects things like CoB, Intoxicating Notes, Crypt proc; which can proc like crazy crypt and CoB are already one of the higher parsing procs on a dirge parse; and when you factor in the fast 2 of these buff effect others I think we can safely say that even at 200% potency the max damage from CA DAMAGE ONLY vs the new 25% potency proc could be safely considered a "draw" Which brings me on to the worst part of the nerf. max AA damage vs 25% flurry.Now a standard attack is a 1:6 spread which is a 6:7.8 spread under a standard crit Sword doing 100-600 damage with 0% Crit bonus will do 900-1170 damage; and with 200% Crit bonus 2104-2730Under Old myth proc average damage would be 2730Under New myth proc average damage would be 2104A Flurry does an average of 3 attacks, and with the new proc you will have a 25% chance to proc 3 extra attacks or on average 0.75 attacks on every swing.. but lets see how it works with MAWith 0% MA and 25% Flurry from new myth procUnder Old myth proc average damage would be 2730 Under New myth proc average damage would be 2104 + 1578 (3682) 35% bonusWith 100% MA and 25% Flurry from new myth proc Under Old myth proc average damage would be 2730 + 2730 (5460) Under New myth proc average damage would be 2104 + 2104 + 1578 (5786) 6% bonusWith 200% MA and 25% Flurry from new myth proc Under Old myth proc average damage would be 2730 + 2730 + 2730 (8190) Under New myth proc average damage would be 2104 + 2104 + 2104 + 1578 (7890) 4% nerf With 300% MA and 25% Flurry from new myth proc Under Old myth proc average damage would be 2730 + 2730 + 2730 + 2730 (10920) Under New myth proc average damage would be 2104 + 2104 + 2104 + 2104 + 1578 (9994) 8% nerfWith 400% MA and 25% Flurry from new myth proc Under Old myth proc average damage would be 2730 + 2730 + 2730 + 2730 + 2730 (13650) Under New myth proc average damage would be 2104 + 2104 + 2104 + 2104 + 2104 + 1578 (1209<img src="/eq2/images/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" /> 11% nerfWith 500% MA and 25% Flurry from new myth proc Under Old myth proc average damage would be 2730 + 2730 + 2730 + 2730 + 2730 + 2730 (16380) Under New myth proc average damage would be 2104 + 2104 + 2104 + 2104 + 2104 + 2104 + 1578 (14202) 13% nerf When you factor in say 25% flurry chance from a decently geared dirge it gets pretty frightning.Under Old myth proc average damage from flurries would be 2047 Under New myth proc average damage from flurries would be 1578 - 23% nerf In conclusion with a decently geared dirge of 25% Flurry, 500% MA you are looking at- NERF: Flurries 23%- NERF: Standard Autoattack: 13%- NERF: CA damage 13%- BONUS: Spell Damage and procs 8%At best you're looking at a flat 10% drop in dirge DPS, and a small increase to group/raid DPS - not the best news dirges wanted to hear I know but at least you know where you stand now.Bascially the dirge myth was balanced for back into RoK/TSO levels where 30% potency and 100% MA were averages and whilst it was considered to be a powerful myth proc back then it wasn't considered to be OPed.It sure makes my dirge alt a very unhappy bunny tho <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" />

TwistedFaith

09-16-2011, 07:01 AM

<cite>Gaige wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Circadian@Unrest_old wrote:</cite><blockquote>The buff defined the dirge class.</blockquote>For the wrong reasons. Max melee as a dirge makes no sense, since dirges do not exist for their own DPS but to facilitate the DPS of others. It was also completey out of control, as this expansion can attest.If that proc is make or break of you playing the game, I just think you're overreacting.</blockquote>Completely out of control how exactly? Were assasins/wizzys/locks/rangers/summoners/brigs/swashy suddenly being destroyed on the parse by dirges?The answer is no, this change simply nerfs dirges so some mediorce so called top tier dps players don't feel so bad about themselves. The whole 'dps tier' system is so redudant at this point it's almost pointless to even mention it. Tanks were never meant to do good dps, mystics/inq sure as hell were never meant to put out of the numbers they are either. The game is over five years old, the playerbase is getting smaller and smaller, the last thing SOE should be doing is nerfing classes. I could make a list of 100 things they could do that are more important to the overall gameplay mechanics than nerfing dirges. It simply makes no sense whatsoever, nothing has been acheived here beyond annoying the loyal players that the game has left. Oh no the dirge class is fun to play, people are enjoying their class, best nerf it! As for troubs, yet again they have been shafted. The class still blows to play. Why didn't SOE take this opportunity to boost troubs properly, give them something fun, make people want to play the class!

darwich

09-16-2011, 07:52 AM

i love my dirge.. and i dont have the epic buff... so i dont care.. oh... can i have your stuff?

Onorem

09-16-2011, 09:36 AM

I have no complaints about the change to the dirge myth that I currently see on test (...though as far as I can tell, nothing has actually changed yet despite the update notes...)

Marawin

09-16-2011, 09:51 AM

I don't advocate quiting, but SOE please don't impliment this change. As pointed out in several posts, the Dirge myth has been a large part of your equations for balancing other parts of the dirge tool set. A dramatic decrease like this without reshaping the other parts of the dirge spells/CAs will only cause more rebalancing issues for you. Not only will it impact individual dirge damage but will also trickle quickly into the group/raid dps via the smaller less powerful VCs. This change will probablly drop dirge DPS by 10 to 15 percent, and could impact raids by up to 25 percent in some of their more DPS heavy fights. The explanation that this has to be done at this point of the game is just silly. Any time you change a basic capability YEARS after it has been implement, people HATE it. You build, train, condition your player base to run their toons a certain way. After YEARS of it being that way you decide that this is now somehow wrong and the player base has to bare the pain of your now knee jerk reaction to Troub issues. Don't remove Dirge capabailities that they and their groups/raid forces are counting on. UPGRADE Troub DPS. And if this myth capability to grow as your character grows is a problem, make all the OTHER MYTHS grow as well. Take TAKE TAKE is a lousy way to address an issue with your player base. GIVE GIVE GIVE would be much better for the Troubs and all the other classes.

Lcneed

09-16-2011, 09:54 AM

<cite>Novusod wrote:</cite><blockquote>Please don't make it so it is harder to find dirges.</blockquote>Well there will be dirges around even without the mythical. Without it, there will about same amount of dirges as troubadours currently have. People can argue all day long how it is overpower. The fact is that many of the current dirges are dirges because of the mythical. It is not something new. They are not even nerfing it.. they are completely changing it.With the dirge change there will be "less" dirges around. With the troubadour changes there wil be the "same" amount of troubdabours around. The changes (both bard classes) are not attracting more people to play the bard classes.

ccarro

09-16-2011, 09:56 AM

I love how some of the loud mouth posters in this thread don't even play a dirge, but in fact play a so called high tier dps class (and not very well at that). And that is exactly why they are so loud mouthed. They don't want to see dirges where we are on the parse. Scared.And nope, not changing the reason I am leaving the game. Maybe you should try a comprehension class.

Silzin

09-16-2011, 09:56 AM

Very nice brake down Boli … I would be interested to see that same brake down with 25 CB instead of Pot. May be interested to see how much more they do/don’t actually get with CB.

Boli32

09-16-2011, 10:26 AM

<cite>Silzin@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote>Very nice break down Boli … I would be interested to see that same brake down with 25 CB instead of Pot. May be interested to see how much more they do/don’t actually get with CB.</blockquote>Using the same calculations if you get 25% CB instead of potency this will not be a nerf at all but a small boost to Dirges; although such a boost will ultimatly be lessened in the long run.With 25% Crit bonus instead of 25% potency the average hit will be 2,589 (with 200+25% CB, and a sword which does 100-600 damage).25% chance to flurry will do on average 0.75 hits or 1,942 more damagewith 500% MA and the 25% Flurry proc- 2,589 + 2,589 + 2,589 + 2,589 + 2,589 + 2,589 + 1942 (17,476)With old myth proc- 2730 + 2730 + 2730 + 2730 + 2730 + 2730 (16,380)25% Chance to Flurry, with average 3 hits each time will hit 0.75 times per autoattack- Old: 2047- New (with CB instead of Pot): 1942So your dirge with 25% Flurry 500% MA- Old: 18427- New (with CB instead of Pot): 19418 - 5% increase in autoattack damageCAs will be reduced by 13% as before; but spell damage will increase by 8% as beforeGroup procs - such as CoB and Crypt will remain the same and will not get a boost.Overall would be a small dps increase for the dirge who has 500% MA, 25% Flurry 200 Pot and 200CB it will however be a flat increase as if you work out the same with a 300 Pot/CB dirge the Old mythical will scale much better and provide a much higher return. Just from a numbers point of view in order to make the proc be almost exactly the same if you had 200% CB 200% pot it will need to proc:- 60 Flurry- 80% Combat Art PotencyAlthough that will only mean no dirge myth nerf now.. but the returns will be greatly lessened with more gear/bonuses.

Silzin

09-16-2011, 10:42 AM

Thank you Boli, i think this will help every one see just how much the changes are a "nurf". also i like you alternative of some Pot, some CB and 25 Flurry. But i am not a dirge....

Boli32

09-16-2011, 10:52 AM

<cite>Silzin@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote>Thank you Boli, i think this will help every one see just how much the changes are a "nurf". also i like you alternative of some Pot, some CB and 25 Flurry. But i am not a dirge....</blockquote>Well I edited that as when I ran the numbers it was a massive hike in Dirge DPS (like 30% higher) so I thought I'll work out exactly what the proc would have to be to equal the old given only pot and flurry.Honeslty a proc which would be 10% Flurry 10% Potency and 10% Crit bonus nets a surprising increase in overall DPS; but like all these numbers the more they are increased the less they matter. Unlike the old Dirge myth which scaled up in such a way the actual DS it added became... well a bit redicuous at times.I personally would love a method which scales as you level with gear added to EVERYONE'S Mythicals but finding things which do not scale or cap out has been the downfall of all of the stats and will continue to be so

Silzin

09-16-2011, 11:05 AM

<cite>Boli@Splitpaw wrote:</cite><blockquote>Well I edited that as when I ran the numbers it was a massive hike in Dirge DPS (like 30% higher) so I thought I'll work out exactly what the proc would have to be to equal the old given only pot and flurry.Honeslty a proc which would be 10% Flurry 10% Potency and 10% Crit bonus nets a surprising increase in overall DPS; but like all these numbers the more they are increased the less they matter. Unlike the old Dirge myth which scaled up in such a way the actual DS it added became... well a bit redicuous at times.I personally would love a method which scales as you level with gear added to EVERYONE'S Mythicals but finding things which do not scale or cap out has been the downfall of all of the stats and will continue to be so</blockquote>This conclusion is to me the most interesting part of the entire discussion. Also I hope and ply that the div/s that are looking at this change takes a very long look at your calc’s and the conclusion there from.

Gaige

09-16-2011, 12:04 PM

<cite>Circadian@Unrest_old wrote:</cite><blockquote>I love how some of the loud mouth posters in this thread don't even play a dirge, but in fact play a so called high tier dps class (and not very well at that). And that is exactly why they are so loud mouthed. They don't want to see dirges where we are on the parse. Scared.And nope, not changing the reason I am leaving the game. Maybe you should try a comprehension class.</blockquote>You need to look at some parses imo, because I don't see any high DPS classes losing to dirges. It has nothing to do with the dirge on the overall parse - it has to do with how the myth proc makes dirge autoattack completely overpowered and how it will only get worse as time goes on.SOE should be doing things to minimize autoattack and make classes reliant on actual player input instead of getting more than half of their effectiveness from standing in melee range.I used to play a dirge and if I played one now I would certainly want the myth proc changed because it will seperate the good dirges from the scrub dirges in about 13 milliseconds once the change goes live.<div><cite>Boli@Splitpaw wrote:</cite><blockquote>Using the same calculations if you get 25% CB instead of potency this will not be a nerf at all but a small boost to Dirges</blockquote>Which is exactly why dirges are clamoring for CB instead of potency so it isn't a nerf at all but an actual increase. They are seriously asking for the best myth in the game to be made better. So ridiculous.CB just affects so much stuff that potency doesn't - which is why SOE probably went with potency in the first place so the dirge mythical would be on a more level playing field with every other classes mythical.</div>

Yimway

09-16-2011, 12:24 PM

<cite>Boli@Splitpaw wrote:</cite><blockquote> Unlike the old Dirge myth which scaled up in such a way the actual DS it added became... well a bit redicuous at times.</blockquote>Bingo, a fact everyone with half a brain has known for a long time, and why this change is not at all unexpected.The need to change it is created due to the change in how dps is shaped since the buff was orriginaly designed. You either had to fix the buff, or provide all classes ways to have similar abilities.

Talathion

09-16-2011, 12:29 PM

Or Add this.- The dirge cannot flurry while this proc is active.

Neskonlith

09-16-2011, 12:56 PM

<cite>Novusod wrote:</cite><blockquote>Please don't make it so it is harder to find dirges.</blockquote>Don't worry, NPC Dirge mercenaries will soon be available for raids!

Chefren

09-16-2011, 12:58 PM

<cite>theriatis wrote:</cite><blockquote>Troubas got some love with the Update. Don't know if it is good love or some dirty one <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" /></blockquote>There is a difference?! <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />And LOL at saying the myth proc was class defining. It was fun, got out of hand and isn't useless after this change. Fix the troub one too and then take a look at some of the Dirge abilities too, some of them simply aren't worth casting.

Felshades

09-16-2011, 04:42 PM

<cite>Boli@Splitpaw wrote:</cite><blockquote>The change kind of makes me wonder WHERE it has bene balanced against.At best you're looking at a flat 10% drop in dirge DPS, and a small increase to group/raid DPS - not the best news dirges wanted to hear I know but at least you know where you stand now.Bascially the dirge myth was balanced for back into RoK/TSO levels where 30% potency and 100% MA were averages and whilst it was considered to be a powerful myth proc back then it wasn't considered to be OPed.It sure makes my dirge alt a very unhappy bunny tho <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" /></blockquote>Snipped the math for length.In other words, the better your gear gets, the worse the proc gets. Gee, doesn't that sound... great...

Felshades

09-16-2011, 04:47 PM

<cite>Lcneed wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Novusod wrote:</cite><blockquote>Please don't make it so it is harder to find dirges.</blockquote>Well there will be dirges around even without the mythical. Without it, there will about same amount of dirges as troubadours currently have. People can argue all day long how it is overpower. The fact is that many of the current dirges are dirges because of the mythical. It is not something new. They are not even nerfing it.. they are completely changing it.With the dirge change there will be "less" dirges around. With the troubadour changes there wil be the "same" amount of troubdabours around. The changes (both bard classes) are not attracting more people to play the bard classes.</blockquote>I'm not a dirge because of the Myth buff. I'm a dirge because I found troubs boring as all get out to play.And I tried both. If I can't stand playing a class by 20th level, all the end game buffs in the world isn't going to make me want to keep playing it.

Talathion

09-16-2011, 04:51 PM

<cite>Nadirah@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Lcneed wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Novusod wrote:</cite><blockquote>Please don't make it so it is harder to find dirges.</blockquote>Well there will be dirges around even without the mythical. Without it, there will about same amount of dirges as troubadours currently have. People can argue all day long how it is overpower. The fact is that many of the current dirges are dirges because of the mythical. It is not something new. They are not even nerfing it.. they are completely changing it.With the dirge change there will be "less" dirges around. With the troubadour changes there wil be the "same" amount of troubdabours around. The changes (both bard classes) are not attracting more people to play the bard classes.</blockquote>I'm not a dirge because of the Myth buff. I'm a dirge because I found troubs boring as all get out to play.And I tried both. If I can't stand playing a class by 20th level, all the end game buffs in the world isn't going to make me want to keep playing it.</blockquote>Classes don't even get there unique class abilitys until level 55.

Geothe

09-16-2011, 04:53 PM

<cite>Nadirah@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Boli@Splitpaw wrote:</cite><blockquote>The change kind of makes me wonder WHERE it has bene balanced against.At best you're looking at a flat 10% drop in dirge DPS, and a small increase to group/raid DPS - not the best news dirges wanted to hear I know but at least you know where you stand now.Bascially the dirge myth was balanced for back into RoK/TSO levels where 30% potency and 100% MA were averages and whilst it was considered to be a powerful myth proc back then it wasn't considered to be OPed.It sure makes my dirge alt a very unhappy bunny tho <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" /></blockquote>Snipped the math for length.In other words, the better your gear gets, the worse the proc gets. Gee, doesn't that sound... great...</blockquote>Hey, welcome to basically every other class's myth since they were introduced, yet yours is still exceedingly better!Dirges: 25% Flurry, 25% Potency proc.Troubs: 15% Crit ProcBrigs: 15% MA proc.Assassin: 15% Crit procSwash: Increased Hate Xfer procRanger: Ability Mod Proc (?)Hmmm. Which one of these things is still not even in teh same ball park? Could it still be Dirges? Why I do believe so!

Felshades

09-16-2011, 04:54 PM

<cite>Gaige wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Circadian@Unrest_old wrote:</cite><blockquote>I love how some of the loud mouth posters in this thread don't even play a dirge, but in fact play a so called high tier dps class (and not very well at that). And that is exactly why they are so loud mouthed. They don't want to see dirges where we are on the parse. Scared.And nope, not changing the reason I am leaving the game. Maybe you should try a comprehension class.</blockquote>You need to look at some parses imo, because I don't see any high DPS classes losing to dirges. It has nothing to do with the dirge on the overall parse - it has to do with how the myth proc makes dirge autoattack completely overpowered and how it will only get worse as time goes on.SOE should be doing things to minimize autoattack and make classes reliant on actual player input instead of getting more than half of their effectiveness from standing in melee range.I used to play a dirge and if I played one now I would certainly want the myth proc changed because it will seperate the good dirges from the scrub dirges in about 13 milliseconds once the change goes live.<div><cite>Boli@Splitpaw wrote:</cite><blockquote>Using the same calculations if you get 25% CB instead of potency this will not be a nerf at all but a small boost to Dirges</blockquote>Which is exactly why dirges are clamoring for CB instead of potency so it isn't a nerf at all but an actual increase. They are seriously asking for the best myth in the game to be made better. So ridiculous.CB just affects so much stuff that potency doesn't - which is why SOE probably went with potency in the first place so the dirge mythical would be on a more level playing field with every other classes mythical.</div></blockquote>That actually goes against what it seems they're trying to do with itemization which seems to be lowering MA(since the servers can't seem to handle it) and making autos hit harder instead of more often(with MA).At least that's some semi current speculation I've found. I haven't bothered actually doing the research myself.

Felshades

09-16-2011, 04:56 PM

<cite>Neskonlith wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Novusod wrote:</cite><blockquote>Please don't make it so it is harder to find dirges.</blockquote>Don't worry, NPC Dirge mercenaries will soon be available for raids!</blockquote>You need mercs?Most people I know of that can't get bards box them. Mercs won't make a difference.Also, I was under the impression you cannot use mercs in raids.

Felshades

09-16-2011, 04:58 PM

<cite>Talathion@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Nadirah@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Lcneed wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Novusod wrote:</cite><blockquote>Please don't make it so it is harder to find dirges.</blockquote>Well there will be dirges around even without the mythical. Without it, there will about same amount of dirges as troubadours currently have. People can argue all day long how it is overpower. The fact is that many of the current dirges are dirges because of the mythical. It is not something new. They are not even nerfing it.. they are completely changing it.With the dirge change there will be "less" dirges around. With the troubadour changes there wil be the "same" amount of troubdabours around. The changes (both bard classes) are not attracting more people to play the bard classes.</blockquote>I'm not a dirge because of the Myth buff. I'm a dirge because I found troubs boring as all get out to play.And I tried both. If I can't stand playing a class by 20th level, all the end game buffs in the world isn't going to make me want to keep playing it.</blockquote>Classes don't even get there unique class abilitys until level 55.</blockquote>That depends on class and which abilities you determine as "class defining". SKs get some of their good spells, like grave sac, early on. Paladins get consecrate later. Dirges don't get CoB till later.Class defining doesn't affect my class choice. Whether or not I can stomach playing them by 20 does. The troub, when I tried rolling one, was more painful than the defiler I tried. And when I tried defiler, it was painful. :/

Felshades

09-16-2011, 05:01 PM

<cite>Geothe wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Nadirah@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Boli@Splitpaw wrote:</cite><blockquote>The change kind of makes me wonder WHERE it has bene balanced against.At best you're looking at a flat 10% drop in dirge DPS, and a small increase to group/raid DPS - not the best news dirges wanted to hear I know but at least you know where you stand now.Bascially the dirge myth was balanced for back into RoK/TSO levels where 30% potency and 100% MA were averages and whilst it was considered to be a powerful myth proc back then it wasn't considered to be OPed.It sure makes my dirge alt a very unhappy bunny tho <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" /></blockquote>Snipped the math for length.In other words, the better your gear gets, the worse the proc gets. Gee, doesn't that sound... great...</blockquote>Hey, welcome to basically every other class's myth since they were introduced, yet yours is still exceedingly better!Dirges: 25% Flurry, 25% Potency proc.Troubs: 15% Crit ProcBrigs: 15% MA proc.Assassin: 15% Crit procSwash: Increased Hate Xfer procRanger: Ability Mod Proc (?)Hmmm. Which one of these things is still not even in teh same ball park? Could it still be Dirges? Why I do believe so!</blockquote>So far as I'm aware, the only proc that's capped in numbers on that list is hate transfer(unless they uncapped hate gain?) and flurry. And just because we can't cap it now doesn't maen next expansion we won't. Unless they finally decide to to slow down the inflation. Which I doubt.

Geothe

09-16-2011, 05:30 PM

<cite>Nadirah@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Geothe wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Nadirah@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Boli@Splitpaw wrote:</cite><blockquote>The change kind of makes me wonder WHERE it has bene balanced against.At best you're looking at a flat 10% drop in dirge DPS, and a small increase to group/raid DPS - not the best news dirges wanted to hear I know but at least you know where you stand now.Bascially the dirge myth was balanced for back into RoK/TSO levels where 30% potency and 100% MA were averages and whilst it was considered to be a powerful myth proc back then it wasn't considered to be OPed.It sure makes my dirge alt a very unhappy bunny tho <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" /></blockquote>Snipped the math for length.In other words, the better your gear gets, the worse the proc gets. Gee, doesn't that sound... great...</blockquote>Hey, welcome to basically every other class's myth since they were introduced, yet yours is still exceedingly better!Dirges: 25% Flurry, 25% Potency proc.Troubs: 15% Crit ProcBrigs: 15% MA proc.Assassin: 15% Crit procSwash: Increased Hate Xfer procRanger: Ability Mod Proc (?)Hmmm. Which one of these things is still not even in teh same ball park? Could it still be Dirges? Why I do believe so!</blockquote>So far as I'm aware, the only proc that's capped in numbers on that list is hate transfer(unless they uncapped hate gain?) and flurry. And just because we can't cap it now doesn't maen next expansion we won't. Unless they finally decide to to slow down the inflation. Which I doubt.</blockquote>Actually the only thing on that list that doesn't reach a functional cap currently is POTENCY.-Crit Chance: effectively caps depending on the buff package on the encounter, having excess over provides zero benefit.-Ability Mod caps at 50% base CA damage.-MA effectively caps at 500 (or 600). Requiring another 500 MA above that point to gain 1 extra attack is the same as a hard cap. And 500 MA is easily reachable for raiders now, 600 if you are top tier raider.Heck, even FLURRY doesnt reach a functional cap this expansion at all.So guess what, BOTH stats Dirges gain on their proc are fully useful, unlike any other scout myth's procs.

Amanathia

09-16-2011, 05:36 PM

<cite>Gaige wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Circadian@Unrest_old wrote:</cite><blockquote>The dirge myth was what made playing a dirge fun. Needless to say, I terminated my account today. There is no reason to keep playing a game the devs insist on making worse with each update.</blockquote>If having 60% of your dps happen just by standing in melee range is "fun" I feel sorry for you.</blockquote>This post just about sums it up, right here. Win. Funny thing is, exactly what has been said--it's still extremely good, probably the best mythical still by far!

inzewood

09-16-2011, 05:39 PM

<cite>Geothe wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Nadirah@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Boli@Splitpaw wrote:</cite><blockquote>The change kind of makes me wonder WHERE it has bene balanced against.At best you're looking at a flat 10% drop in dirge DPS, and a small increase to group/raid DPS - not the best news dirges wanted to hear I know but at least you know where you stand now.Bascially the dirge myth was balanced for back into RoK/TSO levels where 30% potency and 100% MA were averages and whilst it was considered to be a powerful myth proc back then it wasn't considered to be OPed.It sure makes my dirge alt a very unhappy bunny tho <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" /></blockquote>Snipped the math for length.In other words, the better your gear gets, the worse the proc gets. Gee, doesn't that sound... great...</blockquote>Hey, welcome to basically every other class's myth since they were introduced, yet yours is still exceedingly better!Dirges: 25% Flurry, 25% Potency proc.Troubs: 15% Crit Proc and some useless DD procBrigs: 15% MA proc. + 30% to all back caAssassin: 15% Crit procSwash: Increased Hate Xfer procRanger: increased base auto atk + ab mod based on your agi.Hmmm. Which one of these things is still not even in teh same ball park? Could it still be Dirges? Why I do believe so!</blockquote>Dirges: 25% Flurry, 25% Potency proc.Troubs: 15% Crit Proc and some useless DD procBrigs: 15% MA proc. + 30% to all backstab ca + 10% debuffs increaseAssassin: 15% flurry chance + 15% crit chance proc and some useless Damage procSwash: Increased Hate Xfer proc + 10% dmg to CA + 10% spell dmg decrase on mob.Ranger: 20% increase to auto atk + 10% increase to ca + proc that give 20 if agi to cai see only troub really owned on thisyou obviously have no clue what you're talking about, so please dont post about this nerf.

Felshades

09-16-2011, 05:43 PM

<cite>Geothe wrote:</cite><blockquote>Actually the only thing on that list that doesn't reach a functional cap currently is POTENCY.-Crit Chance: effectively caps depending on the buff package on the encounter, having excess over provides zero benefit.-Ability Mod caps at 50% base CA damage.-MA effectively caps at 500 (or 600). Requiring another 500 MA above that point to gain 1 extra attack is the same as a hard cap. And 500 MA is easily reachable for raiders now, 600 if you are top tier raider.Heck, even FLURRY doesnt reach a functional cap this expansion at all.So guess what, BOTH stats Dirges gain on their proc are fully useful, unlike any other scout myth's procs.</blockquote>Again snipped for length.Crit chance requirement will always go up. The buff packages are designed to deal with stat inflation. I don't see that changing.Ability mod caps, but when the level caps go up again, so will ability mod caps.MA "effectively" caps, but I'm still seeing signs towards getting rid of the majority of it anyways.I'm not looking at this expansion in terms of "usefulness" for the myth buffs. I'm looking down the road.Edit: the main reason I'm looking down the road on it is because if they didn't want the buff to be relevant in later content, they would not have made it a spell via the Epic Repurcussions quest line. They would have just phased it out much like they did with the TSO proc gear and such.

Neskonlith

09-16-2011, 05:48 PM

<cite>Nadirah@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote>I'm not looking at this expansion in terms of "usefulness" for the myth buffs.I'm looking down the road.</blockquote>The various mechanics get revamped radically too often to worry about where current trends are leading.What changes we rage about today could easily become a non-issue next hotfix as a new experiment is tested.

Nrgy

09-16-2011, 05:49 PM

HA HA HA ... We all kew it was coming ... Its like opening a gift, you just don't know what it will look like untill you unwrap it.

Felshades

09-16-2011, 05:52 PM

<cite>Neskonlith wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Nadirah@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote>I'm not looking at this expansion in terms of "usefulness" for the myth buffs.I'm looking down the road.</blockquote>The various mechanics get revamped radically too often to worry about where current trends are leading.What changes we rage about today could easily become a non-issue next hotfix as a new experiment is tested.</blockquote>SoE has a history of doing the same things over and over and over...I'm not sure if they have some sort of vision for where they want the game to go ala McQuaid did, but I'm still not expecting anything to go favorably suddenly or change overly drastically from where it is now.

Geothe

09-16-2011, 06:14 PM

<cite>inzewood wrote:</cite><blockquote>Dirges: 25% Flurry, 25% Potency proc.Troubs: 15% Crit Proc and some useless DD procBrigs: 15% MA proc. + 30% to all backstab ca + 10% debuffs increaseAssassin: 15% flurry chance + 15% crit chance proc and some useless Damage procSwash: Increased Hate Xfer proc + 10% dmg to CA + 10% spell dmg decrase on mob.Ranger: 20% increase to auto atk + 10% increase to ca + proc that give 20 if agi to cai see only troub really owned on thisyou obviously have no clue what you're talking about, so please dont post about this nerf.</blockquote>LOL. Hello bias bitter Dirgie, how are you doing?I was discussing the PROCS on all the myths.Rather amusing how you add in the static effects on the other scouts in showing "how you have a clue" and yet don't do the same for bards. If you want to compare the static effects it will only make your argument for keeping the things as they are currently even weaker./laughs

inzewood

09-16-2011, 06:56 PM

<cite>Geothe wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>inzewood wrote:</cite><blockquote>Dirges: 25% Flurry, 25% Potency proc.Troubs: 15% Crit Proc and some useless DD procBrigs: 15% MA proc. + 30% to all backstab ca + 10% debuffs increaseAssassin: 15% flurry chance + 15% crit chance proc and some useless Damage procSwash: Increased Hate Xfer proc + 10% dmg to CA + 10% spell dmg decrase on mob.Ranger: 20% increase to auto atk + 10% increase to ca + proc that give 20 if agi to cai see only troub really owned on thisyou obviously have no clue what you're talking about, so please dont post about this nerf.</blockquote>LOL. Hello bias bitter Dirgie, how are you doing?I was discussing the PROCS on all the myths.Rather amusing how you add in the static effects on the other scouts in showing "how you have a clue" and yet don't do the same for bards. If you want to compare the static effects it will only make your argument for keeping the things as they are currently even weaker./laughs</blockquote>yeah add the static from bards, and ask yourself why nobody want to play troub for example, then think how dirge population will become when the epic will be nerfed, the raidwide proc never make the class more desirable to anyone except raid leaders.but personnaly i dont care, i played troub for years before betraying to dirge, and i didn't betrayed for the myth.

ccarro

09-16-2011, 08:36 PM

<cite>Gaige wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Circadian@Unrest_old wrote:</cite><blockquote>I love how some of the loud mouth posters in this thread don't even play a dirge, but in fact play a so called high tier dps class (and not very well at that). And that is exactly why they are so loud mouthed. They don't want to see dirges where we are on the parse. Scared.And nope, not changing the reason I am leaving the game. Maybe you should try a comprehension class.</blockquote>...it has to do with how the myth proc makes dirge autoattack completely overpowered and how it will only get worse as time goes on.I used to play a dirge and if I played one now I would certainly want the myth proc changed because it will seperate the good dirges from the scrub dirges in about 13 milliseconds once the change goes live.</blockquote>I agree with these statments. I do think that in time the dirge myth proc would get OP as time goes on, I don't think it's OP at the moment only because I think any good dirge is where they should be on the parse. Potency does not make up for the nerf though.

Felshades

09-16-2011, 09:17 PM

<cite>Circadian@Unrest_old wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Gaige wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Circadian@Unrest_old wrote:</cite><blockquote>I love how some of the loud mouth posters in this thread don't even play a dirge, but in fact play a so called high tier dps class (and not very well at that). And that is exactly why they are so loud mouthed. They don't want to see dirges where we are on the parse. Scared.And nope, not changing the reason I am leaving the game. Maybe you should try a comprehension class.</blockquote>...it has to do with how the myth proc makes dirge autoattack completely overpowered and how it will only get worse as time goes on.I used to play a dirge and if I played one now I would certainly want the myth proc changed because it will seperate the good dirges from the scrub dirges in about 13 milliseconds once the change goes live.</blockquote>I agree with these statments. I do think that in time the dirge myth proc would get OP as time goes on, I don't think it's OP at the moment only because I think any good dirge is where they should be on the parse. Potency does not make up for the nerf though.</blockquote>To be fair, I don't think it matters to seperate the wheat from the chaff in terms of dirges, because some raids already have to box them because they can't recruit or keep them. Much like bards and chanters in general over the years.We might just end up boxing dirges rather than troubs after the change. Who knows. You don't have to be good, you just have to be there.

Lcneed

09-17-2011, 11:52 AM

<cite>Nadirah@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Circadian@Unrest_old wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Gaige wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Circadian@Unrest_old wrote:</cite><blockquote>I love how some of the loud mouth posters in this thread don't even play a dirge, but in fact play a so called high tier dps class (and not very well at that). And that is exactly why they are so loud mouthed. They don't want to see dirges where we are on the parse. Scared.And nope, not changing the reason I am leaving the game. Maybe you should try a comprehension class.</blockquote>...it has to do with how the myth proc makes dirge autoattack completely overpowered and how it will only get worse as time goes on.I used to play a dirge and if I played one now I would certainly want the myth proc changed because it will seperate the good dirges from the scrub dirges in about 13 milliseconds once the change goes live.</blockquote>I agree with these statments. I do think that in time the dirge myth proc would get OP as time goes on, I don't think it's OP at the moment only because I think any good dirge is where they should be on the parse. Potency does not make up for the nerf though.</blockquote>To be fair, I don't think it matters to seperate the wheat from the chaff in terms of dirges, because some raids already have to box them because they can't recruit or keep them. Much like bards and chanters in general over the years.We might just end up boxing dirges rather than troubs after the change. Who knows. You don't have to be good, you just have to be there.</blockquote>Why don't they just make it a group buff since it is bard's myth anyway. I would take 15% flurry 15% pot as a group buff. It would make the myth useful when boxing the dirge.

Amanathia

09-17-2011, 04:48 PM

<cite>Nadirah@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Circadian@Unrest_old wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Gaige wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Circadian@Unrest_old wrote:</cite><blockquote>I love how some of the loud mouth posters in this thread don't even play a dirge, but in fact play a so called high tier dps class (and not very well at that). And that is exactly why they are so loud mouthed. They don't want to see dirges where we are on the parse. Scared.And nope, not changing the reason I am leaving the game. Maybe you should try a comprehension class.</blockquote>...it has to do with how the myth proc makes dirge autoattack completely overpowered and how it will only get worse as time goes on.I used to play a dirge and if I played one now I would certainly want the myth proc changed because it will seperate the good dirges from the scrub dirges in about 13 milliseconds once the change goes live.</blockquote>I agree with these statments. I do think that in time the dirge myth proc would get OP as time goes on, I don't think it's OP at the moment only because I think any good dirge is where they should be on the parse. Potency does not make up for the nerf though.</blockquote>To be fair, I don't think it matters to seperate the wheat from the chaff in terms of dirges, because some raids already have to box them because they can't recruit or keep them. Much like bards and chanters in general over the years.We might just end up boxing dirges rather than troubs after the change. Who knows. You don't have to be good, you just have to be there.</blockquote>hmmm...our server has tons of chanters .....troubs i agree with you on...there arent tons of them around. many seem to have betrayed. if anything this change will even it out a bit hopefully.

Felshades

09-17-2011, 05:55 PM

<cite>Lcneed wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Nadirah@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Circadian@Unrest_old wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Gaige wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Circadian@Unrest_old wrote:</cite><blockquote>I love how some of the loud mouth posters in this thread don't even play a dirge, but in fact play a so called high tier dps class (and not very well at that). And that is exactly why they are so loud mouthed. They don't want to see dirges where we are on the parse. Scared.And nope, not changing the reason I am leaving the game. Maybe you should try a comprehension class.</blockquote>...it has to do with how the myth proc makes dirge autoattack completely overpowered and how it will only get worse as time goes on.I used to play a dirge and if I played one now I would certainly want the myth proc changed because it will seperate the good dirges from the scrub dirges in about 13 milliseconds once the change goes live.</blockquote>I agree with these statments. I do think that in time the dirge myth proc would get OP as time goes on, I don't think it's OP at the moment only because I think any good dirge is where they should be on the parse. Potency does not make up for the nerf though.</blockquote>To be fair, I don't think it matters to seperate the wheat from the chaff in terms of dirges, because some raids already have to box them because they can't recruit or keep them. Much like bards and chanters in general over the years.We might just end up boxing dirges rather than troubs after the change. Who knows. You don't have to be good, you just have to be there.</blockquote>Why don't they just make it a group buff since it is bard's myth anyway. I would take 15% flurry 15% pot as a group buff. It would make the myth useful when boxing the dirge.</blockquote>Not if it's a proc it won't. A lot of boxed bards/chanters werent even auto attacking when I ran with them.The person below that post:Back in Kunark we primarily boxed illies. There's coercers out the wazoo around here. There are less troubs than dirges now, but I don't think the dirges are going to betray to troubs. They'll just quit and play another class.

Davngr1

09-18-2011, 03:11 AM

it's overpowerd and was going to become even worse with every expansion. dirges aren't going to loose anything other than easymode parsing.

Shotneedle

09-18-2011, 03:19 AM

<cite>Geothe wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>inzewood wrote:</cite><blockquote>Dirges: 25% Flurry, 25% Potency proc.Troubs: 15% Crit Proc and some useless DD procBrigs: 15% MA proc. + 30% to all backstab ca + 10% debuffs increaseAssassin: 15% flurry chance + 15% crit chance proc and some useless Damage procSwash: Increased Hate Xfer proc + 10% dmg to CA + 10% spell dmg decrase on mob.Ranger: 20% increase to auto atk + 10% increase to ca + proc that give 20 if agi to cai see only troub really owned on thisyou obviously have no clue what you're talking about, so please dont post about this nerf.</blockquote>LOL. Hello bias bitter Dirgie, how are you doing?I was discussing the PROCS on all the myths.Rather amusing how you add in the static effects on the other scouts in showing "how you have a clue" and yet don't do the same for bards. If you want to compare the static effects it will only make your argument for keeping the things as they are currently even weaker./laughs</blockquote>Yep, procs are all that matter.Coercer myth is terrible with their -15% power used proc.Zerker myth is terrible with their crit/ma proc.Paladin myth is terrible with their damage proc.Monk myth is terrible with their damage/ma proc.I agree with you 100%.

Notsovilepriest

09-18-2011, 03:27 AM

Does it stink it's getting nerfed? YesDid every dirge with a clue know this was coming? YesWas the proc OP? YesIs the new effect still making it one of the best myths? YesIt's going to stink not being as faceroll to be a good parsing dirge, but it wont' be impossible and the proc won't be as much of a crutch.

Felshades

09-18-2011, 04:12 AM

<cite>Notsovilepriest@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>Does it stink it's getting nerfed? YesDid every dirge with a clue know this was coming? YesWas the proc OP? YesIs the new effect still making it one of the best myths? YesIt's going to stink not being as faceroll to be a good parsing dirge, but it wont' be impossible and the proc won't be as much of a crutch.</blockquote>For a lot of people you don't even have to be a good dirge to keep a raid spot. -_-I just wanted to parse 100k on a dungeon boss before the nerf hit. Did ISK. just a hair shy of 105k.Got what I wanted. Let the nerfbat roll.

millie

09-18-2011, 06:32 AM

Hmm interestng thread, but the issues seem to have been clouded by jealousy and shadenfreude.Cacophony of Blades has already been nerfed now the Mythical. The defining abilities of dirges used to be the res and debuff. But the debuffs have not scaled with the last two expansions and the two res spells are becoming irrelevant.A good RO/VC Chain takes 20 to 25 seconds to execute with 30 to 40 mouse clicks/keystrokes. Planned not face rolled.I will probably keep playing a dirge if this change goes live but I wont like it. It will ceratainly put me much closer to the point of quitting (RIFT begins to look tolerable). Its not just the change to DPS potential but the need to completely rethink all of my kit and adornments. It might take months to sort out the consequences of this change.At the very least dirges need to be given some upside with this, remove gravitas immunity put more casting speed on our itemisation, make the res uninterruptable and let us know a res has been cast by some healer, necro or some random toon with a signet during casting and not after 5 to 20 seconds of no other CA/spell.

Gungo

09-18-2011, 10:38 AM

<cite>Buffrat@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Geothe wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>inzewood wrote:</cite><blockquote>Dirges: 25% Flurry, 25% Potency proc.Troubs: 15% Crit Proc and some useless DD procBrigs: 15% MA proc. + 30% to all backstab ca + 10% debuffs increaseAssassin: 15% flurry chance + 15% crit chance proc and some useless Damage procSwash: Increased Hate Xfer proc + 10% dmg to CA + 10% spell dmg decrase on mob.Ranger: 20% increase to auto atk + 10% increase to ca + proc that give 20 if agi to cai see only troub really owned on thisyou obviously have no clue what you're talking about, so please dont post about this nerf.</blockquote>LOL. Hello bias bitter Dirgie, how are you doing?I was discussing the PROCS on all the myths.Rather amusing how you add in the static effects on the other scouts in showing "how you have a clue" and yet don't do the same for bards. If you want to compare the static effects it will only make your argument for keeping the things as they are currently even weaker./laughs</blockquote>Yep, procs are all that matter.Coercer myth is terrible with their -15% power used proc.Zerker myth is terrible with their crit/ma proc.Paladin myth is terrible with their damage proc.Monk myth is terrible with their damage/ma proc.I agree with you 100%.</blockquote>I think the bottom line is comparison of myths is silly. The myth is not about being equal but really it was another stab at class balance. In which case its not about being equal but its about making the class useful.

Karagon

09-18-2011, 11:16 AM

I think bards mythics should give bonus to all group. As soon as this is main point of bards. They already really, but their proc should be the same.I suggest 15 potency+15 flurry to group of dirge myth proc, and 15 potency+5 spell double atack with troub one would be cool.They also should rework some other mycthicals making them better, I can remember these:Zerker's one - 15 crit 10 double atack is too bad, even compared with 100% AE auto buff that is useless due to AE auto can be capped even without it. It should be something better - double AE auto mb (specially for zerkers with mythic)SK's one - selfheal => agro is completely useless nowadays. It should be something better - max HP increase while proc is on, or avoid increase or agro increase - something like thatConj/necro ones - they should give 100% pet avoid AE all the time, due to now there is a lot of AEs and pets die now from any sh*t (in sf they survivd under AEs, now htey don't really). not proc.Brig - 15 multiatack from proc is very poor nowadays - it should be 15 flurry at least... Ot it should give 10% reuse, or something like thatSwash - same as brig... - a bit reuse would be coolMonk - same as brig - a bit reuse or cast speed with proc (not only 15 double atack) would be cool.Warlock - 10 critbonus is poor, especially compared with 10 spell double of wizzards. It should be 10 cb+10 potency at leastDruid's mythicals should give them immunity to interrupts with proc.That is what i know and remember. List isn't full 100%.Or they can make a new quest for DOV epic mobs that would upgrade mythicals of any class giving them 1 more unique proc - that would be actual and usefull in DOV and mb next expansion also (for example each mythical could have unique groupbuff with proc - troub one for spell multi atack, dirge for flurry, Monk for stats and so on)

millie

09-18-2011, 06:39 PM

<cite>Karagon wrote:</cite><blockquote>I think bards mythics should give bonus to all group. As soon as this is main point of bards. They already really, but their proc should be the same.I suggest 15 potency+15 flurry to group of dirge myth proc, and 15 potency+5 spell double atack with troub one would be cool.They also should rework some other mycthicals making them better, I can remember these:Zerker's one - 15 crit 10 double atack is too bad, even compared with 100% AE auto buff that is useless due to AE auto can be capped even without it. It should be something better - double AE auto mb (specially for zerkers with mythic)SK's one - selfheal => agro is completely useless nowadays. It should be something better - max HP increase while proc is on, or avoid increase or agro increase - something like thatConj/necro ones - they should give 100% pet avoid AE all the time, due to now there is a lot of AEs and pets die now from any sh*t (in sf they survivd under AEs, now htey don't really). not proc.Brig - 15 multiatack from proc is very poor nowadays - it should be 15 flurry at least... Ot it should give 10% reuse, or something like thatSwash - same as brig... - a bit reuse would be coolMonk - same as brig - a bit reuse or cast speed with proc (not only 15 double atack) would be cool.Warlock - 10 critbonus is poor, especially compared with 10 spell double of wizzards. It should be 10 cb+10 potency at leastDruid's mythicals should give them immunity to interrupts with proc.That is what i know and remember. List isn't full 100%.Or they can make a new quest for DOV epic mobs that would upgrade mythicals of any class giving them 1 more unique proc - that would be actual and usefull in DOV and mb next expansion also (for example each mythical could have unique groupbuff with proc - troub one for spell multi atack, dirge for flurry, Monk for stats and so on)That is sort of nice, but nasty. "Bards are good to have around but they should not compete" Healers have the heal parse, Mages other scouts have the dps parse, heck there is even a power parse to compete on. Bards? just doodle around and get kicked a bit, the existing mythical gave a good dirge the ability to get up there on the dps parse, not top it just feel they can demonstrate their usefullness.The numbers seem to say that this nerf makes that harder in the short term and impossible in the medium term.</blockquote>

millie

09-19-2011, 07:21 AM

A small prediction if this goes live: Two weeks into the new expansion there will be no 'people' playing raid dirges, bots yes people no.Some will leave, some will betray to troubs, some will give up raiding and the rest will be playing beast lords.

Amanathia

09-19-2011, 03:11 PM

<cite>Nadirah@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Notsovilepriest@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>Does it stink it's getting nerfed? YesDid every dirge with a clue know this was coming? YesWas the proc OP? YesIs the new effect still making it one of the best myths? YesIt's going to stink not being as faceroll to be a good parsing dirge, but it wont' be impossible and the proc won't be as much of a crutch.</blockquote>For a lot of people you don't even have to be a good dirge to keep a raid spot. -_-I just wanted to parse 100k on a dungeon boss before the nerf hit. Did ISK. just a hair shy of 105k.Got what I wanted. Let the nerfbat roll.</blockquote>Yeah...and the thing is though, no one wants to see dirge *damage* nerfed. It's just that so much of that damage was from auto attack. The issue wasn't now, so much as scaling in the future. I also think this was probably a bit of a problem that kept them from making the classes abilities better and more interesting, hopefully that will change. I know our guild's main dirge wasn't happy about this, but doesn't dispute that it was coming, lol. Most would love to see bard damage go up not down, though. The issue was just that it was from auto attack and that it would cause big scaling issues later.

Lcneed

09-19-2011, 05:39 PM

<cite>Amanathia wrote:</cite><blockquote>It's just that so much of that damage was from auto attack. The issue wasn't now, so much as scaling in the future. The issue was just that it was from auto attack and that it would cause big scaling issues later.</blockquote>No that's not the issue. Because if it is just scaling on auto attack for the future, they would have to do something about brawlers' Combat Mastery. It has the same effect with longer recast but group wide buff.The main purpose is to nerf dirges dps. They could have easily done it by cutting down the proc rate on dirges myth, but instead they change it to something else and said the original design was not "additive".

LygerT

09-19-2011, 06:15 PM

<cite>Lcneed wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Amanathia wrote:</cite><blockquote>It's just that so much of that damage was from auto attack. The issue wasn't now, so much as scaling in the future. The issue was just that it was from auto attack and that it would cause big scaling issues later.</blockquote>No that's not the issue. Because if it is just scaling on auto attack for the future, they would have to do something about brawlers' Combat Mastery. It has the same effect with longer recast but group wide buff.The main purpose is to nerf dirges dps. They could have easily done it by cutting down the proc rate on dirges myth, but instead they change it to something else and said the original design was not "additive".</blockquote>the point is to have people actively playing the game, not getting a drink after hitting attack.

millie

09-19-2011, 07:04 PM

<cite>Lyger@Permafrost wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Lcneed wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Amanathia wrote:</cite><blockquote>It's just that so much of that damage was from auto attack. The issue wasn't now, so much as scaling in the future. The issue was just that it was from auto attack and that it would cause big scaling issues later.</blockquote>No that's not the issue. Because if it is just scaling on auto attack for the future, they would have to do something about brawlers' Combat Mastery. It has the same effect with longer recast but group wide buff.The main purpose is to nerf dirges dps. They could have easily done it by cutting down the proc rate on dirges myth, but instead they change it to something else and said the original design was not "additive".</blockquote>the point is to have people actively playing the game, not getting a drink after hitting attack.</blockquote>roflmao!!!!having this autoattack means time to cast debuffs, res, CoB, and Gravitas without losing too much dps. It also means a higher preference for the 6sec weapons no on else should want, instead we will be bidding on the 4sec weapons with the other scouts and the 6sec weapons will rot or be 'SLR'd to people who know no better. I have not seen a dirge AFK in a fight but I have noticed a few other scouts AFK during the 'circle mob' fight.As to the 'future' and 'scaling'. How old is this game? The level cap is not going up for another 15 months at least, and coming down the track is EQ Next.

Nlaeni

09-19-2011, 10:22 PM

Time to give the rezzes and rez sick cures to the troubs

Neskonlith

09-20-2011, 01:28 PM

Step 1: overnerf (it's only a game, so you can't go too far with the nerfs)Step 2: wait silently for the forum outrage to produce feedback on what subscribers affected by nerf would settle forStep 3: make a small concession to shut them up and let the threads die

Felshades

09-20-2011, 01:38 PM

<cite>Lyger@Permafrost wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Lcneed wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Amanathia wrote:</cite><blockquote>It's just that so much of that damage was from auto attack. The issue wasn't now, so much as scaling in the future. The issue was just that it was from auto attack and that it would cause big scaling issues later.</blockquote>No that's not the issue. Because if it is just scaling on auto attack for the future, they would have to do something about brawlers' Combat Mastery. It has the same effect with longer recast but group wide buff.The main purpose is to nerf dirges dps. They could have easily done it by cutting down the proc rate on dirges myth, but instead they change it to something else and said the original design was not "additive".</blockquote>the point is to have people actively playing the game, not getting a drink after hitting attack.</blockquote>Idk about you but if I don't sit at my computer and mash buttons my dps drops by about 50%.Auto is only 50-60% of my dps depending.

Felshades

09-20-2011, 01:42 PM

<cite>millie wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Lyger@Permafrost wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Lcneed wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Amanathia wrote:</cite><blockquote>It's just that so much of that damage was from auto attack. The issue wasn't now, so much as scaling in the future. The issue was just that it was from auto attack and that it would cause big scaling issues later.</blockquote>No that's not the issue. Because if it is just scaling on auto attack for the future, they would have to do something about brawlers' Combat Mastery. It has the same effect with longer recast but group wide buff.The main purpose is to nerf dirges dps. They could have easily done it by cutting down the proc rate on dirges myth, but instead they change it to something else and said the original design was not "additive".</blockquote>the point is to have people actively playing the game, not getting a drink after hitting attack.</blockquote>roflmao!!!!having this autoattack means time to cast debuffs, res, CoB, and Gravitas without losing too much dps. It also means a higher preference for the 6sec weapons no on else should want, instead we will be bidding on the 4sec weapons with the other scouts and the 6sec weapons will rot or be 'SLR'd to people who know no better. I have not seen a dirge AFK in a fight but I have noticed a few other scouts AFK during the 'circle mob' fight.As to the 'future' and 'scaling'. How old is this game? The level cap is not going up for another 15 months at least, and coming down the track is EQ Next.</blockquote>I use 4s weapons. Only had one 6s weapon drop and I don't have a match for it so it was looted to someone else.And I could go afk during that circle mob. But I don't. Instead I toss up debuffs, Banshee, turn on auto shoot and tab out for a few seconds reading webcomics till banshee needs to go back up or my debuffs.I hate that fight so much.

Nrgy

09-20-2011, 01:42 PM

I think thats the entire point and purpsoe ...

Fitz

09-21-2011, 03:37 PM

Theory craft is great, but I suggest you guys wait until you see parses to see what happens to your dps. I'm not a dirge but a conj, and I was up in arms for losing 12.5% sda. Turned out to be less than significant. Wait before you freak.

arntr2

09-26-2011, 09:51 PM

Don't have to wait for it to go live just go over to Test. I saw my DPS drop by a little over 33% of course that was just testing on Epic dummies but it still gives me a good idea.

RhaeNZ

09-26-2011, 10:02 PM

<cite>arntr2 wrote:</cite><blockquote>Don't have to wait for it to go live just go over to Test. I saw my DPS drop by a little over 33% of course that was just testing on Epic dummies but it still gives me a good idea.</blockquote>Ouch!!

Korhallen3

09-27-2011, 08:31 AM

That's balance. Good job, Sony! <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Now Dirges and Troubs are right on par!

Neskonlith

09-27-2011, 01:01 PM

woooo, when SOE decides they want to nerf a class into rubbish, they don't fool around! Enjoy your raiding tonight, Bards:<img src="http://i207.photobucket.com/albums/bb310/Bitter_Coffee/dirgenerf.jpg" width="291" height="504" />No more fun for you, come back one year! OUT!<img src="/eq2/images/smilies/97ada74b88049a6d50a6ed40898a03d7.gif" border="0" />

Anklesteiner

09-27-2011, 04:26 PM

The EQ2 development team doesn't care. Simple as that. This thread is pointless because no matter what we say about the game that we actually play, the EQ2 development team will do what they want.Your choice is to either accept it, or stop playing EQ2.

TwistedFaith

09-30-2011, 04:44 PM

<cite>Anklesteiner wrote:</cite><blockquote>The EQ2 development team doesn't care. Simple as that. This thread is pointless because no matter what we say about the game that we actually play, the EQ2 development team will do what they want.Your choice is to either accept it, or stop playing EQ2.</blockquote>I tend to agree honestly. I was already getting bored of EQ2 anyway, there are no new players coming into the game anymore and the only thing keeping me around is/was my guild who I raid with. I was tempted to simply take some time off, and this change simply confirms it. I don't intend on playing a class that suddenly gets 30% less powerful to what it was before, at this point in eq2 lifecycle it's not worth the effort anymore. There are a bunch of new games coming out this winter: Star Wars, Battlefield 3, Skyrim and the new Assassin Creed game.EQ2 is simply getting to be very stale and boring, the new expansion quite honestly sounds boring as hell from what I have read, I have no interest in getting another 50 AAs so I can increase a skill by 2.5% etc.

Oddity

10-02-2011, 12:28 PM

I think people have lost what it means to be a bard. We are support classes. We boost the group's/raid's dps. We arn't ment to be in the top percentage in the parses. If you want to be, go make a true dps class. Yes I care about my parse, but as a Troub I know I'll never be up there. I get my fun by the mages telling me they are glad to have me there. It is about the same for the melee classes wanted the dirge. It boostes their dps.Don't like the changes? You going to quit? I say don't let the door hit you on the way out or go play another class. If your staying that is great! Continue what you are doing! You are going to be needed even if there is a dps drop. When looking for more I don't know of anyone that says, "Lets get a dirge for dps!!!" *rolls eyes*Bottom line to this post, We are not dps classes. Deal with it!

Neskonlith

10-03-2011, 02:49 PM

Yeah! Silly peeps, there's no need to do anything but be an AFK buff-bot who only pays attention when scout loot drops!Huh, sounds like bards will be easily replaced by NPC mercenaries!<img src="/eq2/images/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" />

Korhallen3

10-03-2011, 03:03 PM

So, who in this thread quit? Anyone? No?

Neskonlith

10-03-2011, 03:19 PM

<cite>Korhallen3 wrote:</cite><blockquote>So, who in this thread quit? Anyone? No? </blockquote>Prior Planning Prevents Pathetically Poor Performance!I'm nearly complete on my escape plan: while SOE is nerfing Dirges down to be passive like Troubs and seamlessly replaced by incoming NPC mercenaries, I've been busy gearing up my other alts so I can still play characters that will actively contribute to the raid... and I'll still enjoy my high parses!<img src="/eq2/images/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" />

tfetterman

10-03-2011, 04:41 PM

<cite>Oddity@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>I think people have lost what it means to be a bard. We are support classes. We boost the group's/raid's dps. We arn't ment to be in the top percentage in the parses. If you want to be, go make a true dps class. Yes I care about my parse, but as a Troub I know I'll never be up there. I get my fun by the mages telling me they are glad to have me there. It is about the same for the melee classes wanted the dirge. It boostes their dps.Don't like the changes? You going to quit? I say don't let the door hit you on the way out or go play another class. If your staying that is great! Continue what you are doing! You are going to be needed even if there is a dps drop. When looking for more I don't know of anyone that says, "Lets get a dirge for dps!!!" *rolls eyes*Bottom line to this post, We are not dps classes. Deal with it!</blockquote>Have you ever heard of Victorious Concerto and Rhytmic Overature? If you can't parse, you are doing it wrong! There is absolutely no reason why you can't provide utility and parse high. Laziness is about the only reason I can come up with.

millie

10-04-2011, 04:55 AM

<cite>Oddity@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>I think people have lost what it means to be a bard. We are support classes. We boost the group's/raid's dps. We arn't ment to be in the top percentage in the parses. If you want to be, go make a true dps class. Yes I care about my parse, but as a Troub I know I'll never be up there. I get my fun by the mages telling me they are glad to have me there. It is about the same for the melee classes wanted the dirge. It boostes their dps.Don't like the changes? You going to quit? I say don't let the door hit you on the way out or go play another class. If your staying that is great! Continue what you are doing! You are going to be needed even if there is a dps drop. When looking for more I don't know of anyone that says, "Lets get a dirge for dps!!!" *rolls eyes*Bottom line to this post, We are not dps classes. Deal with it!</blockquote>Hmmm......never played a raid dirge have we?so do you raid on your troub? if you do, do you pay any attention to what the dirges are doing?A troub does more dps help for a mage group than a dirge does for the main tank group. Our resses are becoming irrelevant. Our debuff's are showing their age, the healers care less about gravitas and now our tier 2 status on the dps parse looks like becoming a joke.As I have said before your options as a raider now playing a dirge are; betray to troub, stop raiding or make an alt.

Davngr1

10-04-2011, 06:20 AM

your myth buff was stupid overpowerd and needed to be adjusted. troubs have had crapola myth buff and personal damage buffing along with several nerfs for more years then i can remember. go look at the updates and read about all the nerfs that troubs have taken.. dirges have been pretty much untouched for a long time err for ever i mean, you got to enjoy easymode long enough so stop your QQ.

Azurro

10-04-2011, 11:58 AM

<cite>Oddity@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>I think people have lost what it means to be a bard. We are support classes. We boost the group's/raid's dps. We arn't ment to be in the top percentage in the parses. If you want to be, go make a true dps class. Yes I care about my parse, but as a Troub I know I'll never be up there. I get my fun by the mages telling me they are glad to have me there. It is about the same for the melee classes wanted the dirge. It boostes their dps.Don't like the changes? You going to quit? I say don't let the door hit you on the way out or go play another class. If your staying that is great! Continue what you are doing! You are going to be needed even if there is a dps drop. When looking for more I don't know of anyone that says, "Lets get a dirge for dps!!!" *rolls eyes*Bottom line to this post, We are not dps classes. Deal with it!</blockquote>While I see the need for a nerf to Dirges 35% is way to high. We are going from the top of Tier 2 DPS and lower Tier 1 down to the bottom of Tier 2 in one change. We needed a 10% - 15% cut not 35% to bring us in line with Troubs. Are you really saying that your troubs DPS is 35% lower than your raids dirges consistently?And if this is all about balancing tiers out than why such a narrow nerf to dirges only? There are a bunch of Tier 2 (Support) DPS classes that can touch on Tier 1 DPS including Fury's, SK's, Swashy's, Illy's, and Brigs. If SOE wants to better define the DPS Tiers that's fine but they should do it in one big change instead. All this looks like is a focused nerf to dirges for the sole purpose of making Troubs feel better about themselves.

Raahl

10-05-2011, 11:34 AM

Just when I was starting to have more fun playing my Dirge they nerf them.FYI - I'm not an uber Dirge and only had a max parse of 40k'ish.Guess I'll see how this affects my character. There's a new distraction coming on 12/20/2011. Maybe it's time to finally move on.For those complaining about the Buff. AA was and is the only way for Dirges to do decent DPS. Nerfing it to hell and back makes the class a lot less fun to play. We were already buff-bots, now that's looking to be all that we will be.

Neskonlith

10-05-2011, 06:51 PM

oh noes, too soon, SOE!Nerf inc Thursday.The best time to nerf Dirges would have been with the release of NPC Bard mercenaries, since everyone would be busy with Beastlords and having access to NPC buff-bots would make the transition seamless.<img src="/eq2/images/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" />

Raahl

10-06-2011, 09:51 AM

<cite>Neskonlith wrote:</cite><blockquote>oh noes, too soon, SOE!Nerf inc Thursday.The best time to nerf Dirges would have been with the release of NPC Bard mercenaries, since everyone would be busy with Beastlords and having access to NPC buff-bots would make the transition seamless.<img src="/eq2/images/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" /></blockquote>The Beastlord class does sound interesting. I'm sure one of my unplayed alts will become deleted and replaced. Maybe that's Sony's plan. Nerf Dirges to free up part of the player population to play Beastlords. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" />

Onorem

10-06-2011, 11:28 AM

<cite>Raahl wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Neskonlith wrote:</cite><blockquote>oh noes, too soon, SOE!Nerf inc Thursday.The best time to nerf Dirges would have been with the release of NPC Bard mercenaries, since everyone would be busy with Beastlords and having access to NPC buff-bots would make the transition seamless.<img src="/eq2/images/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" /></blockquote>The Beastlord class does sound interesting. I'm sure one of my unplayed alts will become deleted and replaced. Maybe that's Sony's plan. Nerf Dirges to free up part of the player population to play Beastlords. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" /></blockquote>Hmm...beastlord...I couldn't help but think it was foreshadowing when I opened this month's free LoN packs and got an extra character slot.

Anklesteiner

10-06-2011, 02:16 PM

This is ridiculous. Last night, because this big nerf was incoming, I tested what my DPS was on a heroic training dummy, using nothing but my auto attack and my combat arts that did not involve me hitting the training dummy from behind, and it hovered between 50-55K, which is very, very respectable for Dirge.Now, since the EQ2 development team saw it fit to nerf us, I have seen my DPS drop to the 35K - 40K range. This is absolutely ridiculous. What the hell was the point in nerfing Dirge's? We weren't top tier DPS, and we never would have been.This seriously makes me want to quit the game.

Elskidor

10-06-2011, 02:21 PM

Yeah it's way too big of a hit to suffer all at once. Overkill nerf and I don't see any desire in playing the Dirge anymore. Glad she wasn't my main, but my Dirge was once of my favorite 3 to play.

Anklesteiner

10-06-2011, 02:25 PM

Also, I dug through the log on ACT to see exactly how many times I actually flurried. I tested my DPS out on 10 heroic training dummies, and, at least accorsding to the logs, I swung for 778 attacks, and of those attacks 157 of them were flurry attacks. Which means, the trigger chance on flurry is actually 20%, not the 25% as is dictated by the Myth buff. And even if it was 25% My DPS is still nerfed by over 10K from what it previously was before this unwanted, uneeded change.So, is the myth buff for Dirge's broken? Because the trigger percentage on Intrepid Strike seems to be.

Raahl

10-06-2011, 02:37 PM

I'm hearing of a 20-25% drop in DPS against dummies. So if this is true my best parse of 44k on a named mob would be around 33k.Sigh. I should have tested on the dummy last night so I could compare it to today. I probably won't hit the same zone last night until next wednesday.

Lcneed

10-06-2011, 02:47 PM

<cite>Anklesteiner wrote:</cite><blockquote>Also, I dug through the log on ACT to see exactly how many times I actually flurried. I tested my DPS out on 10 heroic training dummies, and, at least accorsding to the logs, I swung for 778 attacks, and of those attacks 157 of them were flurry attacks. Which means, the trigger chance on flurry is actually 20%, not the 25% as is dictated by the Myth buff. And even if it was 25% My DPS is still nerfed by over 10K from what it previously was before this unwanted, uneeded change.So, is the myth buff for Dirge's broken? Because the trigger percentage on Intrepid Strike seems to be.</blockquote>Did you have 100% hit rate on the heroic dummies? Maybe some of those 778 swings were misses?

Anklesteiner

10-06-2011, 02:51 PM

<cite>Raahl wrote:</cite><blockquote>I'm hearing of a 20-25% drop in DPS against dummies. So if this is true my best parse of 44k on a named mob would be around 33k.Sigh. I should have tested on the dummy last night so I could compare it to today. I probably won't hit the same zone last night until next wednesday.</blockquote>I tested it out thoroughly last night. I used 10 heroic training dummies last night, using nothing but auto attack and combat arts that don't require me to be standing behind the mob, because I wanted to have a really strong median control for when I parsed everything out today. Last night, before Dirge's were nerfed, on the 10 heroic training dummies I parsed on, my DPS was between 50-55K every fight, and average out to 53.6K - highly resectable DPS for a Dirge.Today, since the nerf went in, I used the same median control point from last night, and tested my parse on 10 heroic training dummies, and saw my DPS hover between 35 - 40K, with an average of 37.7K.For me personally, I have lost 15.9K of my DPS, which is 29.6% less DPS than what I was doing previously - and that is simply a HUGE NERF and completely uncalled for. On top of that, Interpid Strike is only procing 20% of the time, according to my ACT logs, and not the 25% like it should be.So, the question I still ask is why? Why exactly was a near 30% nerf to Dirge's DPS necassary? We were not top tier DPS nor would we ever be. What exactly does this balance? What exactly made us "OP", to where a 30% nerf was needed?

Anklesteiner

10-06-2011, 02:52 PM

<cite>Lcneed wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Anklesteiner wrote:</cite><blockquote>Also, I dug through the log on ACT to see exactly how many times I actually flurried. I tested my DPS out on 10 heroic training dummies, and, at least accorsding to the logs, I swung for 778 attacks, and of those attacks 157 of them were flurry attacks. Which means, the trigger chance on flurry is actually 20%, not the 25% as is dictated by the Myth buff. And even if it was 25% My DPS is still nerfed by over 10K from what it previously was before this unwanted, uneeded change.So, is the myth buff for Dirge's broken? Because the trigger percentage on Intrepid Strike seems to be.</blockquote>Did you have 100% hit rate on the heroic dummies? Maybe some of those 778 swings were misses?</blockquote>I had a 100% hit rate.

Onorem

10-06-2011, 02:57 PM

<cite>Elskidor wrote:</cite><blockquote>Yeah it's way too big of a hit to suffer all at once. Overkill nerf and I don't see any desire in playing the Dirge anymore. Glad she wasn't my main, but my Dirge was once of my favorite 3 to play. </blockquote>Dirge is still my favorite to play, because it was never about a raw dps number, but instead about all of the little tricks and skills that made the class interesting.Dirges will still be needed. Dirges with skill will still be better than bots.

Anklesteiner

10-06-2011, 03:19 PM

Now here is where it gets really interesting. I just tested everything out, using the same method as I described above (10 heroic training dummies, using nothing but auto attack and my combat arts that do not require me to be behind the mob) with the myth buffed turned OFF.According to ACT, my parse hovered between 35-40K for the 10 encounters, with an average parse of 38.2K, meaning that with the myth buff turned OFF, my DPS was actually 500 points higher.So I decided to retest everything, once again, with the myth buff turned on. Using the same method as I have been using (10 heroic training dummies, using nothing but auto attack and my combat arts that do not require me to be behind the mob), and once again my DPS hovered in the 35-40K range, but this time it average out to 38.5K.So, testing it out once again with the myth buff TURNED OFF, using the same method I have been using, my DPS hovered between the 35-40K range, and averaged out to 37.8K.From what I can tell based on these findings, the Dirge myth buff adds virtually nothing to our overall DPS now. Which might possibly mean that the EQ2 development team has made the Dirge myth buff completely worthless now.Would anyone care to test this out, so we can have more opinions on this matter?

Raahl

10-06-2011, 03:30 PM

<cite>Anklesteiner wrote:</cite><blockquote>Now here is where it gets really interesting. I just tested everything out, using the same method as I described above (10 heroic training dummies, using nothing but auto attack and my combat arts that do not require me to be behind the mob) with the myth buffed turned OFF.According to ACT, my parse hovered between 35-40K for the 10 encounters, with an average parse of 38.2K, meaning that with the myth buff turned OFF, my DPS was actually 500 points higher.So I decided to retest everything, once again, with the myth buff turned on. Using the same method as I have been using (10 heroic training dummies, using nothing but auto attack and my combat arts that do not require me to be behind the mob), and once again my DPS hovered in the 35-40K range, but this time it average out to 38.5K.So, testing it out once again with the myth buff TURNED OFF, using the same method I have been using, my DPS hovered between the 35-40K range, and averaged out to 37.8K.From what I can tell based on these findings, the Dirge myth buff adds virtually nothing to our overall DPS now. Which might possibly mean that the EQ2 development team has made the Dirge myth buff completely worthless now.Would anyone care to test this out, so we can have more opinions on this matter?</blockquote>Wow!

Shaolin Sam

10-06-2011, 03:47 PM

ACT screenshots imo for proof. You know how SOE is on the whole "he said / she said" thing.

Raahl

10-06-2011, 03:50 PM

<cite>Shaolin Sam wrote:</cite><blockquote>ACT screenshots imo for proof. You know how SOE is on the whole "he said / she said" thing.</blockquote>I would like to see these also. It just seems so crazy that you'd be doing more damage with the buff off.

Neskonlith

10-06-2011, 03:57 PM

<cite>Raahl wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Shaolin Sam wrote:</cite><blockquote>ACT screenshots imo for proof. You know how SOE is on the whole "he said / she said" thing.</blockquote>I would like to see these also. It just seems so crazy that you'd be doing more damage with the buff off.</blockquote>That would be funny as heck!I'm going to go wake up my retiring dirge alt and see if I can replicate this!<img src="/eq2/images/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" />

Lcneed

10-06-2011, 04:09 PM

So how is it possible if you flurry for an extra 25% (or 20% whichever) and have about the same dps? Is it possible that it is not a dirge nerf but something wrong in the autoattack mechanic on flurry? Maybe when you flurry, your melee damage went down. Would you take a look at your logs and see if there is any significant difference in your "average" damage per swing with or without the myth buff?

Raahl

10-06-2011, 04:24 PM

If this ends up being accurate we may want to start another thread as Sony may iqnore this thread because of the subject line.

Anklesteiner

10-06-2011, 04:55 PM

Absolutely, will be back it up with parse screenshots.I would also like to mention again that I am using the same exact method on every single Heroic Training Dummy that I am parsing with. I have done this yesterday, as well as today. I am using nothing but auto attack, and combat arts that do not require me to stand behind the mob, and I am using the exact same combat art rotation on every single trainging dummyI would first like to correct a mistake I made previously. I said yesterday I was parsing 53.6K before the nerf and that was a typo - I meant to say that I was parsing 52.6K. Now that that is cleared up here is my parse from yesterday: <img src="http://i.imgur.com/EQKDF.jpg" width="983" height="605" />Here is my parse WITHOUT the myth buff: <img src="http://i.imgur.com/HfCVz.jpg" width="983" height="605" /> <img src="http://i.imgur.com/EHmzm.jpg" width="983" height="605" /> <img src="http://i.imgur.com/EmWAi.jpg" width="983" height="605" /> <img src="http://i.imgur.com/zRdDA.jpg" width="761" height="474" /><a href="http://i.imgur.com/ZHji6.jpg" target="_blank">http://i.imgur.com/ZHji6.jpg - This shows how much I flurried. I have a base flurry of 3.5% The screenshot is too big to outright post, so I posted a link to it for everyone to see.</a>Now here is my parse with the myth buff turned ON. <img src="http://i.imgur.com/TQGk5.jpg" width="983" height="605" /> <img src="http://i.imgur.com/WJiKe.jpg" width="983" height="605" /> <img src="http://i.imgur.com/bgIwS.jpg" width="983" height="605" /> <img src="http://i.imgur.com/SlzJ9.jpg" width="761" height="474" /><a href="http://i.imgur.com/kiwq7.jpg" target="_blank">http://i.imgur.com/kiwq7.jpg</a><a href="http://i.imgur.com/CAfdc.jpg" target="_blank">http://i.imgur.com/CAfdc.jpg</a><a href="http://i.imgur.com/kSUc5.jpg" target="_blank">http://i.imgur.com/kSUc5.jpg</a>Those three links show how much I flurried with the myth buff active. Note the times at the bottom of each screenshot to ensure honesty.These are fresh parses I did in the last hour to gather more data and while DPS seems to flucuate...as it always does within about 3K or so, this shows that the myth buff activated, on this occasion increased my DPS by only 1K higher which honestly isn't anything. According to the graphs, my piercing damage was about 1K higher which accomdates the flurry damage with the myth buff activated.The main hinderance here might be my base haste which runs at 97.3%. Now I know the higher you get with haste the more your flurry chance, which adds to the overall affect of the myth, which currently my base flurry chance is 3.5%, added to the 25% given by the myth buff should give me a total flurry chance of 28.5%. It might be that the myth buff is now solely reliant at how much flurry you can get through gear/adornments which will accodate higher DPS, but as it stands right now, if you don't have the haste/flurry, the myth buff does not add anything to your DPS.I'll post more information as I obtain it.

Raahl

10-06-2011, 05:22 PM

Ok so you did slightly more with the Myth Buff on. Wow!You might post these results here also.<a href="http://www.eq2flames.com/dirges/81218-mythical-nerf-test-11.html" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">http://www.eq2flames.com/dirges/812...rf-test-11.html</a>

Anklesteiner

10-06-2011, 05:32 PM

<cite>Raahl wrote:</cite><blockquote>Ok so you did slightly more with the Myth Buff on. Wow!You might post these results here also.<a rel="nofollow" href="http://www.eq2flames.com/dirges/81218-mythical-nerf-test-11.html" target="_blank">http://www.eq2flames.com/dirges/812...rf-test-11.html</a></blockquote>I greatly dislike EQ2Flames, but I created an account and posted there.

Raahl

10-06-2011, 05:59 PM

<cite>Anklesteiner wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Raahl wrote:</cite><blockquote>Ok so you did slightly more with the Myth Buff on. Wow!You might post these results here also.<a rel="nofollow" href="http://www.eq2flames.com/dirges/81218-mythical-nerf-test-11.html" target="_blank">http://www.eq2flames.com/dirges/812...rf-test-11.html</a></blockquote>I greatly dislike EQ2Flames, but I created an account and posted there.</blockquote>Not a huge fan there either.

Anklesteiner

10-06-2011, 06:18 PM

I also need to correct another mistake on my parse from last night. I accidently loaded up one of the heoric training dummies that I was parsing what my numbers were with attacks from behind the mob. I will now post the factual information: <img src="http://i.imgur.com/Pd0gw.jpg" width="983" height="605" /> <img src="http://i.imgur.com/puJrX.jpg" width="983" height="605" /> <img src="http://i.imgur.com/2x5em.jpg" width="983" height="605" /> <img src="http://i.imgur.com/Amaoi.jpg" width="761" height="474" />So, I was parsing 52.2K, not 52.6K.

Anklesteiner

10-06-2011, 06:56 PM

Here is an update. I decided to see what the parses would look like if I included back attacks. For this, I used the same method as before - 10 heroic training dummies, used the same rotation of combat arts for every training dummy - used a combination of bump/misfortunes kiss for 5 encounters and a combination of bump/scream of death for 5 encounters.Here is what I parsed WITHOUT the myth buff: <img src="http://i.imgur.com/iMjqH.jpg" width="983" height="605" /> <img src="http://i.imgur.com/m9Rcr.jpg" width="983" height="605" /> <img src="http://i.imgur.com/96HOb.jpg" width="983" height="606" /> <img src="http://i.imgur.com/yC8T9.jpg" width="761" height="474" />Here is what I parsed WITH the myth buff: <img src="http://i.imgur.com/IVkDA.jpg" width="983" height="606" /> <img src="http://i.imgur.com/IBsOW.jpg" width="983" height="606" /> <img src="http://i.imgur.com/IcNTD.jpg" width="983" height="606" /> <img src="http://i.imgur.com/jxOF2.jpg" width="761" height="474" />I really don't want to say this, but based off all the research that I have done over the past 4 hours, I think it's a safe bet to say that the Dirge Myth Buff went from being essentially to a Dirge's DPS, to being insignificant with the recent change/nerf. Most of out DPS came from auto attack, and with the changes to our myth buff, I'm seeing about an 11K+ difference in what our auto attack used to hit for before the nerf. I've run enough parses with the myth buff active and the myth buff not active, and I'm seeing no real difference. Give or take 1K DPS, in each variation of it.All in all we can determine this was a MASSIVE nerf for the Dirge class, and our DPS took about a 20-30% hit depending on how you are geared, how you play your class, what combat arts you use, etc.

Geothe

10-06-2011, 07:07 PM

20sec parse snippets dont really give much data honestly.Throw up an Epic training dummy, go behind it and parse autoattack for like 5-10 min with and without the buff active.(Dont do any CAs and stuff yet).That will at least show if the flurry proc is working correctly.Because with a 20 sec parse... the random nature of procs means the proc may not even be up at all for an entire training dummy. Which totally screws any conclusions.

acctlc

10-06-2011, 07:08 PM

<cite>Anklesteiner wrote:</cite><blockquote>These are fresh parses I did in the last hour to gather more data and while DPS seems to flucuate...as it always does within about 3K or so, this shows that the myth buff activated, on this occasion increased my DPS by only 1K higher which honestly isn't anything. According to the graphs, my piercing damage was about 1K higher which accomdates the flurry damage with the myth buff activated.</blockquote>So tbh this brings the dirge proc right in line with the troub mythical if not still a little better. 1k increase in dps versus 15% crit chance on the troub proc which equals 0 dps gain for most troubs and a little proc that almost always does less than 1000 dps on its own. A lot of fights it parses around 300 dps.

Xenxex

10-06-2011, 07:32 PM

I thought those findings were a joke until i tested it. If the flurry % was static it would possibly make a diff, but a proc chance for a chance to flurry is why the dmg diff is pretty nill. In those 12 active seconds you have 4-5? chances to get flurry off. Then theirs just too many variables if you will get it off, how many strikes it will land and so forth. Same can be said for the potency amount really considering bard CAs are pretty weak aside for like 3ish. Need to test it in a raid really to see how much of an overall difference it will be. The solo findings are a bit unsettling but it really shouldnt be counted 100% since things change in raid/group settings.

Crismorn

10-06-2011, 07:49 PM

Remove Flurry/potency procAdd Intrepid Strike as a temp buff. 1s. base cast, 15s. duration 90s. base coondown.

Anklesteiner

10-06-2011, 08:03 PM

I went ahead and tested the myth buff changes with and without on an epic training dummy. For this, the only thing I did was turn on auto attack and walk away from my PC. Here are the results:Epic training dummy WITHOUT the myth buff: <img src="http://i.imgur.com/UPPIo.jpg" width="983" height="606" /> <img src="http://i.imgur.com/7HR4j.jpg" width="983" height="606" /> <img src="http://i.imgur.com/dPaDk.jpg" width="983" height="606" /> <img src="http://i.imgur.com/6VUXg.jpg" width="761" height="474" />Epic training dummy WITH the myth buff: <img src="http://i.imgur.com/LSwko.jpg" width="983" height="606" /> <img src="http://i.imgur.com/KKYdd.jpg" width="983" height="606" /> <img src="http://i.imgur.com/ZHcxy.jpg" width="983" height="606" /> <img src="http://i.imgur.com/fpt1j.jpg" width="761" height="474" />Once again, I really hate to say this but based on the research that I have done over the past 6 hours, it seems the change/nerf giving to the Dirge myth buff has been massive. It went from being a core part of our DPS to being absolutely insignificant. The 900 DPS it added while active, as compared to when it was not active is not adding anything of any real value.What I found interesting was the amount of times I flurried. With the Myth buff running, my flurry chance sits at 28.5%, and despite this, while parsing on the epic training dummy with the myth buff active, I only managed to flurry on 163 hits out of a total of 1230, for a percentage total of 13.2%. I'm not sure what this means, or if the flurry code is broke - all I know is this what the parser tells me.I would also like to note that I am note trying to turn this into a Troubadour/Dirge flame war. I for one, was very happy and welcomed all the changes to the Troubadour class, as they have repeatedly been overlooked, and certainly were the one class in EQ2 that deserved to have the increases they received, and I'm very happy for that. All I am doing is showing what was done to the Dirge class with the recent update, and how massive of a nerf it really was. That's all. My intention is to get other people who play Dirge's out there to compile their own research and post it in this thread to see where exactly we stand. I am one man. We need more people to participate in this research to figure out exactly what is going on.So please, any Dirge's out there please feel free to add to this.Edit - Of course my findings are based on a single instances, with just my character, and I'm sure they will drastically change in both a group and raid environment.

Raahl

10-07-2011, 11:21 AM

Big thanks to everyone posting their findings. Please keep it coming.

Gaige

10-07-2011, 11:22 AM

<cite>Crismorn wrote:</cite><blockquote>Remove Flurry/potency procAdd Intrepid Strike as a temp buff. 1s. base cast, 15s. duration 90s. base coondown.</blockquote>HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA. No. That is even more powerful than CM.

Koleg

10-07-2011, 11:24 AM

<cite>Anklesteiner wrote:</cite><blockquote>I went ahead and tested the myth buff changes with and without on an epic training dummy. For this, the only thing I did was turn on auto attack and walk away from my PC. Here are the results:</blockquote>How is that any different from how some Dirges parsed in x4 content to begin with. Which is why the Mythical was FIXED in the first place.

Raahl

10-07-2011, 11:31 AM

<cite>Koleg@Unrest_old wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Anklesteiner wrote:</cite><blockquote>I went ahead and tested the myth buff changes with and without on an epic training dummy. For this, the only thing I did was turn on auto attack and walk away from my PC. Here are the results:</blockquote>How is that any different from how some Dirges parsed in x4 content to begin with. Which is why the Mythical was FIXED in the first place.</blockquote>No the Mythical was changed (nerfed) because the way it was didn't scale well as stats increased. This meant it would have only gotten worse as new expansions came out.You'll find that 99% of the Dirges are doing a lot more than just Auto Attack. Granted around 60% of our DPS comes from Auto Attack by design.Anklesteiner only did auto attack because someone asked. Check his other parses that included the use of CA's, though against heroics.

Geothe

10-07-2011, 11:49 AM

<cite>Raahl wrote:</cite><blockquote>No the Mythical was changed (nerfed) because the way it was didn't scale well as stats increased. This meant it would have only gotten worse as new expansions came out.</blockquote>That is the completely opposite reason as to why it was changed.The mythical was changed because the old form scaled multiplicatively with increasing stats, so it only became more and more and more powerful as characters themselves became stronger.Now it is an additive effect, like other classes, just still a great deal stronger effect than any other class.Edit: Rereading your post and it is a bit vague as far as your meaning (could go either way). My apoligies if you ment essentially what I just posted, but just didnt state it clearly.

Raahl

10-07-2011, 11:56 AM

<cite>Geothe wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Raahl wrote:</cite><blockquote>No the Mythical was changed (nerfed) because the way it was didn't scale well as stats increased. This meant it would have only gotten worse as new expansions came out.</blockquote>That is the completely opposite reason as to why it was changed.The mythical was changed because the old form scaled multiplicatively with increasing stats, so it only became more and more and more powerful as characters themselves became stronger.Now it is an additive effect, like other classes, just still a great deal stronger effect than any other class.Edit: Rereading your post and it is a bit vague as far as your meaning (could go either way). My apoligies if you ment essentially what I just posted, but just didnt state it clearly.</blockquote>From the Patch Notes: "Had this not been addressed, the advantage from Intrepid Strike would have grown indefinitely with those stats."So as new expansions came out and these stats increased even farther it would have grown even more out of wack.I think we were talking about the same thing.Read what the person I was quoting.

thewarriorpoet

10-07-2011, 11:58 AM

Regardless of why it changed, there is not at least a reason for me to use CAs/Spells again. Where the old buff only affected auto the new one does not. So comparing auto with and without the new buff is comparing apples and oranges. Was it a nerf, yes. Was it needed, yes. I will know how much it hurt after this Sunday's raid when I can compare apples to apples. Running tower x2 I sat around 60k (58-62) if I didn't have to rez anybody. It will be interesting to see that number now, which will be a more realistic comparison.

Raahl

10-07-2011, 12:03 PM

<cite>thewarriorpoet wrote:</cite><blockquote>Regardless of why it changed, there is not at least a reason for me to use CAs/Spells again. Where the old buff only affected auto the new one does not. So comparing auto with and without the new buff is comparing apples and oranges. Was it a nerf, yes. Was it needed, yes. I will know how much it hurt after this Sunday's raid when I can compare apples to apples. Running tower x2 I sat around 60k (58-62) if I didn't have to rez anybody. It will be interesting to see that number now, which will be a more realistic comparison.</blockquote>His early parses used CA's too, just on a group of Heroics.I agree we will see more as the day's go on with parses from before and after the changes.

Koleg

10-07-2011, 01:06 PM

<cite>Raahl wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Geothe wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Raahl wrote:</cite><blockquote>No the Mythical was changed (nerfed) because the way it was didn't scale well as stats increased. This meant it would have only gotten worse as new expansions came out.</blockquote>That is the completely opposite reason as to why it was changed.The mythical was changed because the old form scaled multiplicatively with increasing stats, so it only became more and more and more powerful as characters themselves became stronger.Now it is an additive effect, like other classes, just still a great deal stronger effect than any other class.Edit: Rereading your post and it is a bit vague as far as your meaning (could go either way). My apoligies if you ment essentially what I just posted, but just didnt state it clearly.</blockquote>From the Patch Notes: "Had this not been addressed, the advantage from Intrepid Strike would have grown indefinitely with those stats."So as new expansions came out and these stats increased even farther it would have grown even more out of wack.I think we were talking about the same thing.Read what the person I was quoting.</blockquote>This should have been addressed at DOV Launch when all classes basically trippled or quadrupled their stats with the Gear inflation. Thinking this was done for future X-packs is admitting a problem but ignoring the source which is DOV itemization at heart.Otherwise, I think [TheWarriorPoet] will be able to see more clear after an apples to apples test. Auto-Attack is dumb!

Raahl

10-07-2011, 02:39 PM

There is an apples to apple test. Granted it was on a group of Heroic dummies. But I am eager to see comparisons on normal mobs.

Anklesteiner

10-07-2011, 02:52 PM

I honestly do not have the paitence to sit there for 7+ minutes and stream combat arts on an epic training dummy. I did raid last night - Vallon's and hard mode Kraytoc and I saw my overall DPS drop about 20K - depending on the fight. I would normally average out to about 75K zone wide in both those zones, but yesterday I average out to 58K - which is a huge nerf, and I even had people asking if something was wrong because they were unaware of the nerf Dirge's were forced to suffer through.The other Dirge in our raid force, who is way better than me, would average out to around 80K also saw his DPS drop about 20K down to the 60K range.Needless to say, this nerf did a lot of damage to Dirge's overall DPS.

Raahl

10-07-2011, 02:58 PM

<cite>Anklesteiner wrote:</cite><blockquote>I honestly do not have the paitence to sit there for 7+ minutes and stream combat arts on an epic training dummy. I did raid last night - Vallon's and hard mode Kraytoc and I saw my overall DPS drop about 20K - depending on the fight. I would normally average out to about 75K zone wide in both those zones, but yesterday I average out to 58K - which is a huge nerf, and I even had people asking if something was wrong because they were unaware of the nerf Dirge's were forced to suffer through.The other Dirge in our raid force, who is way better than me, would average out to around 80K also saw his DPS drop about 20K down to the 60K range.Needless to say, this nerf did a lot of damage to Dirge's overall DPS.</blockquote>Thanks for the update. I agree, parsing training dummies is mind numbing. Lets see what people start reporting on their raids.

Anklesteiner

10-07-2011, 03:25 PM

I was also talking with the other Dirge in my raid force, after raid, and we both came to the agreement that in order to compensate for this massive nerf, SOE needs to bump up the combat art damage for Dirge's. Because, as everyone knows, Dirge's are pretty much at the very bottom in terms of combat art damage. But with the nerf to our myth buff, our combat art damage, which accounts for most of our DPS took a huge hit, so now total DPS is even more out of sync. The way to properly fix this is to increase the damage output of our combat arts, and make it more balanced in terms of how our overall damage is done.But SOE won't do this. It's a simple fix, and it would make everyone happy. But it still won't happen.

Lcneed

10-07-2011, 03:28 PM

I lost about 30% dps on melee attack; CAs seem about the same. So far I parse just above healers but below everyone else. 25% flurry on a proc does very little when you have over 300 MA and 10 flurry before the myth buff. It is about 3-5% increase in your melee damage; a diety melee blessing does 2 to 3x more! That's why people take off their myth buff and don't see a drop in total DPS.Right now we have same parse as a fighter melee but with dirge CA that put use below fighter's dps.

Shaolin Sam

10-07-2011, 03:32 PM

I've got dirges that regularly do 200k+ dps on raids in my current raidforce but their combat art damage stinks?<cite>Anklesteiner wrote:</cite><blockquote>Because, as everyone knows, Dirge's are pretty much at the very bottom in terms of combat art damage.</blockquote>Erm... If they're doing 200k+ dps on raids with crappy combat art damage, I'd hate to see what happened if you ramped up their combat art damage even higher. Gawd. LOL. They'd be outparsing conjurors and assassins. Heh.

Raahl

10-07-2011, 04:03 PM

<cite>Shaolin Sam wrote:</cite><blockquote>I've got dirges that regularly do 200k+ dps on raids in my current raidforce but their combat art damage stinks?<cite>Anklesteiner wrote:</cite><blockquote>Because, as everyone knows, Dirge's are pretty much at the very bottom in terms of combat art damage.</blockquote>Erm... If they're doing 200k+ dps on raids with crappy combat art damage, I'd hate to see what happened if you ramped up their combat art damage even higher. Gawd. LOL. They'd be outparsing conjurors and assassins. Heh.</blockquote>Sure there are a few that can get that high. With pretty much the perfect group and top end gear.60% of my Damage was from AA. That leaves 40% for CA's and other items. Now there have been reports that this nerf has affected the CA damage increasing the percentage of damage done by AA. 20-30% less DPS overall, with even less of a percentage from CA's.So yes our CA's damage wise stinks. Ask your Dirges about it. The top cardinal rule for a Dirge is to never delay AA.BTW I've also seen Troubadors parsing 200k. Not the norm by any stretch, but it is possible..

Valdaglerion

10-07-2011, 04:39 PM

<cite>Faildozer@Permafrost wrote:</cite><blockquote>sony needs to redo ALL combat arts (scouts and fighters included) so that they scale closer to mage spells and then that damage is supplemented with auto attack damage which can be scaled back some in terms of the amount of double attack on gear. Basically stacking multi attack can only keep scouts competitive for so long and leaves fighters behind in the dust because they get half as much MA from their gear. The fighter thing wouldnt be as big of an issue if fighters didnt rely on dps for aggro since taunts are pointless.Sony, the dirge myth buff is not the problem, you guys putting in 600ma, 30-50 flurry depending on the scout, 300+ dps mod and haste to keep scouts competitive with mages is only going to help until more gear comes out and mages still scale better and you have to double the amounts of melee skills to keep up. Fix combat art damage and you dont have to nerf the dirge myth.</blockquote>Let's give the mages the same type of utility, buffs and rez ability too please. Balance for all!

Psykotic

10-07-2011, 05:02 PM

This won't be a popular opinion, but :1. Should dirges ever have been able to competitive dps with the real dps classes?No2. Was the myth overpowered?Yes3. Will we get any compensation?NoAnswer will be and should be that we are a utility class. If you want anything in compensation for the loss, ask for buffs to make us more capable of fufilling our utility role. We are never going to be that uber dps bard again, face it.

Anklesteiner

10-07-2011, 05:05 PM

<cite>Shaolin Sam wrote:</cite><blockquote>I've got dirges that regularly do 200k+ dps on raids in my current raidforce but their combat art damage stinks?<cite>Anklesteiner wrote:</cite><blockquote>Because, as everyone knows, Dirge's are pretty much at the very bottom in terms of combat art damage.</blockquote>Erm... If they're doing 200k+ dps on raids with crappy combat art damage, I'd hate to see what happened if you ramped up their combat art damage even higher. Gawd. LOL. They'd be outparsing conjurors and assassins. Heh.</blockquote>Have you ever bothered to break down that DPS to see exactly where that damage is coming from, or do you just see one big number? ACT allows you to see where exactly a persons damage is coming from.Let me show you one of my 100K parses: <img src="http://i.imgur.com/74Or5.jpg" width="985" height="606" />Nearly half of my total damage came from auto attack, 25.7K came from a combination of Peace of Mind (Enchanter ability) and Grand Finale (which is an ability from Cadence of Destruction) and ONLY 20.4 of my total DPS from that 113K parse came from my combat arts.Breaking it down, I did 113,204.22 total damage on that fight with 20,467.61 coming from my combat arts which accounts for 18% of my total damage.Now, if we look at this 100K parse: <img src="http://i.imgur.com/NdF92.jpg" width="985" height="606" />On this parse 60% of my total DPS came from auto attack. 20,884.49 of my total damage came from combat arts, which based on the 100,804.22 total damage I did is 21% of my total DPS. By comparison, other abilities accounted for 19293.55 total damage during this fight, which is 19% of my total DPS.We've deduced previously, way back at the beginning of this thread that a majority of a Dirge's DPS is created through Auto Attack, of which, was greatly strengthen because of our myth buff. With the changes made to our myth buff, the DPS created through our Auto Attack has taken anywhere from a 15-30% hit depending on how well the Dirge is geared, what kind of adornments they are using, how they rotate through their combat arts, etc. Regardless of these facts, a nerf for all Dirge's has occurred.In order to compensate for the nerf in our DPS, and in order to more strictly balance things, an increase to our combat damage should have occurred. On any given fight, my combat art damage is accounting for between 15-20% of my total DPS - sometimes a little more than 20%, sometimes a little less than 15%, but the median base of my combat art damage is generally between 15-20% every fight.Instead of the 25% increase to our potency, they should have increased the damage done by all our of combat arts by 25%. We still would have been nerfed, and our damage would have still taken a hit, but it would not have been as drastic as it was. And that would have been fine. But, the current reduction of anywhere between 20-30% of our DPS was way too much and really hurt our class.

Geothe

10-07-2011, 05:17 PM

<cite>Anklesteiner wrote:</cite><blockquote>Instead of the 25% increase to our potency, they should have increased the damage done by all our of combat arts by 25%. We still would have been nerfed, and our damage would have still taken a hit, but it would not have been as drastic as it was. And that would have been fine. But, the current reduction of anywhere between 20-30% of our DPS was way too much and really hurt our class.</blockquote>Maybe, and maybe not.Before, Dirges were blowing troubs out of the water on parses.Now with this GU, dirge DPS has been reduced, and Troub dps has been increased (slightly?).The end goal should be troubs and dirges doing about the same DPS with equal gear/skill.So now is the time to be comparing the parses on the non-progression fights and seeing where dirges and troubs stand in relation to one another in a DPS-away setting. If dirges are now significantly lower than troubs, then yeah, dirge CAs/Spells should get a boost to bring them up, however if both bards are now very close to one another, then thats called balance, heh.

Raahl

10-07-2011, 05:23 PM

<cite>Artemiz@The Bazaar wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Faildozer@Permafrost wrote:</cite><blockquote>sony needs to redo ALL combat arts (scouts and fighters included) so that they scale closer to mage spells and then that damage is supplemented with auto attack damage which can be scaled back some in terms of the amount of double attack on gear. Basically stacking multi attack can only keep scouts competitive for so long and leaves fighters behind in the dust because they get half as much MA from their gear. The fighter thing wouldnt be as big of an issue if fighters didnt rely on dps for aggro since taunts are pointless.Sony, the dirge myth buff is not the problem, you guys putting in 600ma, 30-50 flurry depending on the scout, 300+ dps mod and haste to keep scouts competitive with mages is only going to help until more gear comes out and mages still scale better and you have to double the amounts of melee skills to keep up. Fix combat art damage and you dont have to nerf the dirge myth.</blockquote>Let's give the mages the same type of utility, buffs and rez ability too please. Balance for all!</blockquote>I'm all for giving mages more utility/buffs.Oh and our Rez ability is slow and mostly wasted when healers actually rez. I cannot count the number of times I kicked off our slow rez only to be beat by a healer.

Raahl

10-07-2011, 05:25 PM

<cite>Anklesteiner wrote:</cite><blockquote>Instead of the 25% increase to our potency, they should have increased the damage done by all our of combat arts by 25%. We still would have been nerfed, and our damage would have still taken a hit, but it would not have been as drastic as it was. And that would have been fine. But, the current reduction of anywhere between 20-30% of our DPS was way too much and really hurt our class.</blockquote>This would have been at least something for them to check into. Tweak it to make sure it's not overly powerful.Another thing that would be nice is if they changed half of our buffs to buff CA's for the group/raid instead of AA.

Raahl

10-07-2011, 05:26 PM

Double post.

Felshades

10-07-2011, 05:59 PM

<cite>Shaolin Sam wrote:</cite><blockquote>I've got dirges that regularly do 200k+ dps on raids in my current raidforce but their combat art damage stinks?<cite>Anklesteiner wrote:</cite><blockquote>Because, as everyone knows, Dirge's are pretty much at the very bottom in terms of combat art damage.</blockquote>Erm... If they're doing 200k+ dps on raids with crappy combat art damage, I'd hate to see what happened if you ramped up their combat art damage even higher. Gawd. LOL. They'd be outparsing conjurors and assassins. Heh.</blockquote>I think zerker CA damage bites more.

Felshades

10-07-2011, 06:02 PM

<cite>Psykotic@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>This won't be a popular opinion, but :1. Should dirges ever have been able to competitive dps with the real dps classes?No2. Was the myth overpowered?Yes3. Will we get any compensation?NoAnswer will be and should be that we are a utility class. If you want anything in compensation for the loss, ask for buffs to make us more capable of fufilling our utility role. We are never going to be that uber dps bard again, face it.</blockquote>Tell that to the 100k+ parsing enchanters.

Shaolin Sam

10-07-2011, 06:06 PM

There will be no speaking of enchanters here plz. This is a dirge only emo thread. I LIKE my illy doing 150-300k dps thanks. No nerfing needs to be done!

Anklesteiner

10-07-2011, 06:28 PM

<cite>Shaolin Sam wrote:</cite><blockquote>There will be no speaking of enchanters here plz. This is a dirge only emo thread. I LIKE my illy doing 150-300k dps thanks. No nerfing needs to be done!</blockquote>Technically Enchanters are utility classes. If people are going to make the point of Dirge's being utility classes that should be putting up a certain DPS amount, then it is only fair for the same comparison to be drawn to the Enchanter classes, which are also utility classes and should also should be putting up a certain DPS amount, in this case, 150-300K is way too much for a utility class.Fair and balance right? Or does the concept of fair and balance only apply to classes you don't play?

Shaolin Sam

10-07-2011, 07:24 PM

<cite>Anklesteiner wrote:</cite><blockquote>Or does the concept of fair and balance only apply to classes you don't play?</blockquote>You're darn skippy, sir. If they're gonna nerf classes, nerf classes I don't play! <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />Or, on a more serious note, just code classes properly. I mean... they've had like what? 7 years to practice? They're still... dropping the ball...<img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Felshades

10-07-2011, 07:48 PM

<cite>Shaolin Sam wrote:</cite><blockquote>There will be no speaking of enchanters here plz. This is a dirge only emo thread. I LIKE my illy doing 150-300k dps thanks. No nerfing needs to be done!</blockquote>LOL.Utility class needs nerfed.

Loldawg

10-08-2011, 02:02 AM

Bards bring more utility to groups than enchanters.

Cocytus

10-08-2011, 02:18 AM

I don't get why you're complaining.Your myth buff was overpowered and has been pretty much since TSO.Now, it's still overpowered, especially relative to other classes. Most other (melee, at least) classes get minor procs, and either a small amount of crit or a small amount of MA (some classes get both, though that's very uncommon).You, however, get 25% FLURRY AND POTENCY. You can complain when other classes get something that powerful. Seriously.

Felshades

10-08-2011, 03:39 AM

<cite>Cocytus wrote:</cite><blockquote>I don't get why you're complaining.Your myth buff was overpowered and has been pretty much since TSO.Now, it's still overpowered, especially relative to other classes. Most other (melee, at least) classes get minor procs, and either a small amount of crit or a small amount of MA (some classes get both, though that's very uncommon).You, however, get 25% FLURRY AND POTENCY. You can complain when other classes get something that powerful. Seriously.</blockquote>How about you take a 30-40% dps drop and get back to me.And illusionists bring plenty of utility. At the expense of mana regen. Which is why everyone wants coercers. -_-

Shaolin Sam

10-08-2011, 06:07 AM

<cite>Nadirah@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote>And illusionists bring plenty of utility. At the expense of mana regen. Which is why everyone wants coercers. -_-</blockquote>*spits out soda laughing*You... erm... don't play with illys that actually "know" how to play, I take it <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Anklesteiner

10-08-2011, 01:03 PM

<cite>Cocytus wrote:</cite><blockquote>I don't get why you're complaining.Your myth buff was overpowered and has been pretty much since TSO.Now, it's still overpowered, especially relative to other classes. Most other (melee, at least) classes get minor procs, and either a small amount of crit or a small amount of MA (some classes get both, though that's very uncommon).You, however, get 25% FLURRY AND POTENCY. You can complain when other classes get something that powerful. Seriously.</blockquote>Incorrect. We get an increase of 25% potency and a PROC that increases our flurry by 25% for 12 seconds, that as far as I can tell, does not proc as much as it should.At most, from what I have been able to see, the Dirge myth buff adds at the most - 1K overall DPS.

Lcneed

10-08-2011, 01:30 PM

One day, God decided to take away the quills from porcupine.Skunk and Armadillo cheer, "About time! Your quills have been overpower since the Ice Age!"Porcupine exclaims, "But without my quills, how am I going to survive?"Skunk says, "Die then. We don't care. Your quills have been overpower and you know it is coming!"...In the end, the quill-less porcupine dies alone.

Grobi

10-08-2011, 03:48 PM

forgot to mention that the skunk and armadillos now cry why the dont find porcupines anymore for there partys <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Elskidor

10-08-2011, 05:20 PM

I find it amusing that some are are happy over the nerf, and others don't see how it's a nerf because we got a flurry proc and a lolz potency proc. In the end this is going to nerf everyone because the numbers of Dirges that play will decline undoubtedly. Hurray?

Anklesteiner

10-08-2011, 10:06 PM

They changed the Dirge myth buff again. The 25% potency increase is now apart of the proc, and no longer permanent.

Cocytus

10-08-2011, 10:37 PM

<cite>Anklesteiner wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Cocytus wrote:</cite><blockquote>I don't get why you're complaining.Your myth buff was overpowered and has been pretty much since TSO.Now, it's still overpowered, especially relative to other classes. Most other (melee, at least) classes get minor procs, and either a small amount of crit or a small amount of MA (some classes get both, though that's very uncommon).You, however, get 25% FLURRY AND POTENCY. You can complain when other classes get something that powerful. Seriously.</blockquote>Incorrect. We get an increase of 25% potency and a PROC that increases our flurry by 25% for 12 seconds, that as far as I can tell, does not proc as much as it should.At most, from what I have been able to see, the Dirge myth buff adds at the most - 1K overall DPS.</blockquote>It's still way more than any melee class' mythical buff. Way more. So relative to other classes, still overpowered.<cite>Elskidor wrote:</cite><blockquote>I find it amusing that some are are happy over the nerf, and others don't see how it's a nerf because we got a flurry proc and a lolz potency proc. In the end this is going to nerf everyone because the numbers of Dirges that play will decline undoubtedly. Hurray?</blockquote>It's a nerf, yes. I acknowledged that (I think?), but I maintain that it was REALLY overpowered before. Now it's just fairly overpowered. Because it's still far superior to other melee mythical buffs.

Felshades

10-08-2011, 11:03 PM

<cite>Shaolin Sam wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Nadirah@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote>And illusionists bring plenty of utility. At the expense of mana regen. Which is why everyone wants coercers. -_-</blockquote>*spits out soda laughing*You... erm... don't play with illys that actually "know" how to play, I take it <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" /></blockquote>I do. And coercers are still better mana regen. Group mana flow? I'll take it, thanks.

Shaolin Sam

10-09-2011, 03:28 AM

Wierd. I always beat every coercer I've ever seen at mana regen between my group constantly getting mana due to my epic effect, my group mana debuff I'm constantly using on mobs and the single target manaflows I fire out all the time. All that and I still manage to hit 150-300k dps on fights (again... depending on the fight of course).Not a smackdown or anything. Just never seen a coercer I couldn't beat on dps and mana regen both. Hehe.

Anklesteiner

10-09-2011, 02:57 PM

<cite>Cocytus wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Anklesteiner wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Cocytus wrote:</cite><blockquote>I don't get why you're complaining.Your myth buff was overpowered and has been pretty much since TSO.Now, it's still overpowered, especially relative to other classes. Most other (melee, at least) classes get minor procs, and either a small amount of crit or a small amount of MA (some classes get both, though that's very uncommon).You, however, get 25% FLURRY AND POTENCY. You can complain when other classes get something that powerful. Seriously.</blockquote>Incorrect. We get an increase of 25% potency and a PROC that increases our flurry by 25% for 12 seconds, that as far as I can tell, does not proc as much as it should.At most, from what I have been able to see, the Dirge myth buff adds at the most - 1K overall DPS.</blockquote>It's still way more than any melee class' mythical buff. Way more. So relative to other classes, still overpowered.</blockquote>Is that a fact? Lets really break that down.The Dirge myth buff allows Cacophony of Blades to hit all raid members, adds a 10% damage increase to combat arts, and has a proc that adds 25 Potency and 25 flurry for 12 seconds and has an average proc rate of 2.4 times per minute.The Assassin myth buff gives a permanent increase of 15% chance to flurry, a permanent increase of 30% to all stealth related attacks, as well as a proc that increases their crit chance by 15, and procs poison damage between 548-972 at its base (which drastically increases if the Assassin spends the AA to increase poison damage) that lasts for 12 seconds and has an average proc rate of 2.3 times per minuteThe Brigand myth buff gives a permanent increase of 30% to all rear based combat arts, improves the Brigand's profession debuffs by 10%, as well as a proc that adds 15 Double Attack, and procs piercing damage between 550-830 that last for 12 seconds and has an average proc rate of 2.3 times per minute.The Ranger myth buff improves the base auto attack multiplier by 0.200, gives a permanent increase of 10% damage to all of the Ranger's combat arts, as well as a proc that gives them a 60% chance to use no ammunition on a ranged hit, adds normalize combat art damage based on 20% of their agility, and adds a procs slashing damage between 454-680 that last for 10 seconds and has an average proc rate of 2.2 times per minute.The Swashbuckler myth buff gives a permanent increase of 10 to potency, as well as an added debuff to Flameboyant Strike that decreases an enemies spell damage by 10%. It also has a proc that adds an additional 8% hate transfer to Swarthy Deception IV, inflicts ddirect piercing damage on the target, and inflicts damage of time piercing damage on the target that last for 12 seconds and has an average proc rate of 3.0 times per minute.The Troubador myth buff allows POTM to hit all raid members, and adds a permanent 10% increase to spell/combat art damage to Aria of Magic. It also has a proc that increases crit chance by 15, and proc that inflicts 705-1057 mental damage that lasts for 10 seconds and has an average proc rate of 2.3 times per minute.Going by just the Scout classes, the Assassin myth buff and the Ranger myth buff are definately better. I think it's unfair to compare it to the Fighter classes, because they are an entirely different class that do different things.

Davngr1

10-09-2011, 05:42 PM

<cite>Anklesteiner wrote:</cite><blockquote>Is that a fact? Lets really break that down.The Dirge myth buff allows Cacophony of Blades to hit all raid members, adds a 10% damage increase to combat arts, and has a proc that adds 25 Potency and 25 flurry for 12 seconds and has an average proc rate of 2.4 times per minute.The Troubador myth buff allows POTM to hit all raid members, and adds a permanent 10% increase to spell/combat art damage to Aria of Magic. It also has a proc that increases crit chance by 15, and proc that inflicts 705-1057 mental damage that lasts for 10 seconds and has an average proc rate of 2.3 times per minute.</blockquote> these are the only two that should be compared and unless something was changed, this is wrong.

Novusod

10-09-2011, 07:01 PM

<cite>Cocytus wrote:</cite><blockquote>I don't get why you're complaining.Your myth buff was overpowered and has been pretty much since TSO.Now, it's still overpowered, especially relative to other classes. Most other (melee, at least) classes get minor procs, and either a small amount of crit or a small amount of MA (some classes get both, though that's very uncommon).You, however, get 25% FLURRY AND POTENCY. You can complain when other classes get something that powerful. Seriously.</blockquote>Is what you are forgetting is that the dirge class was ballanced arround that myth for the last 4 expansions. A non-mythical dirge is extremely gimmp. Now with the Myth nerfed the whole class is broken and needs to be revamped.Things like Rezing cast times are completely out of line since it is a requirement that dirges rez in raids. Dirges used to be able to rely myth proc to catch their dps back up after wasting so much time rezing. On top of that dirge CAs do far less damage than other scouts and they have no blue AoE that does any damage.Another thing you are forgetting is that this change nerfed the entire raid because many encounters were based on having 3 dirges in the raid and it was expected those dirges put up a significant of dps to make the dps checks. I don't play a dirge myself and as a raid leader I did not see this nerf coming. I want all the classes to be strong to build the best raid I can. Pretty much all content got harder because of this nerf and that is not something anyone want to see at this point in the expansion.

Faeward

10-10-2011, 06:02 AM

I rolled a Dirge and got a myth buff because I realised how stupid their myth buff was. Now that it has correctly been brought back to where it should be - it's still really good, just not game breakingly good.In summary: this change was badly needed for a long time. You simply cannot complain. It's still a great buff!

Raahl

10-10-2011, 09:56 AM

<cite>Inglip@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>I rolled a Dirge and got a myth buff because I realised how stupid their myth buff was. Now that it has correctly been brought back to where it should be - it's still really good, just not game breakingly good.In summary: this change was badly needed for a long time. You simply cannot complain. It's still a great buff!</blockquote>I read this as you don't normally play your Dirge, is that correct? The Myth Buff was broken, true. It didn't scale well as stats increased, making it overpowered.This fix is a joke. 20-30% DPS decrease. It is not a great buff as it only adds 1-2k to our DPS.

Koleg

10-10-2011, 11:05 AM

<cite>Shaolin Sam wrote:</cite><blockquote>Wierd. I always beat every coercer I've ever seen at mana regen between my group constantly getting mana due to my epic effect, my group mana debuff I'm constantly using on mobs and the single target manaflows I fire out all the time. All that and I still manage to hit 150-300k dps on fights (again... depending on the fight of course).Not a smackdown or anything. Just never seen a coercer I couldn't beat on dps and mana regen both. Hehe.</blockquote>Wierd ... I always beat every Illy I've ever seen in mana regen and in DPS. I am usually 2 or 3 times higher in Mana Regen than other raid Illys and usually 3 to 4 times more DPS than them at the same time.I have just never seen an Illustionist I couldn't beat in both Mana Regen and DPS... Just saying.

Shaolin Sam

10-10-2011, 12:36 PM

I gotta get you into my raids. It'd be fun to actually have a challenge then <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Hehe.Disband your guild and come to mine immediately!

Wookin

10-10-2011, 01:08 PM

Nerfs blow. Period. Everyone benefits from support classes being fun to play and seeing your name on the parse is fun. Seeing it drop 10 spots isn't. The only myth proc you can compare the dirge's to are the other ones that were borked after years of gear, CAs, spells and gameplay were based and balanced around.

Felshades

10-10-2011, 04:53 PM

<cite>Davngr1 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Anklesteiner wrote:</cite><blockquote>Is that a fact? Lets really break that down.The Dirge myth buff allows Cacophony of Blades to hit all raid members, adds a 10% damage increase to combat arts, and has a proc that adds 25 Potency and 25 flurry for 12 seconds and has an average proc rate of 2.4 times per minute.The Troubador myth buff allows POTM to hit all raid members, and adds a permanent 10% increase to spell/combat art damage to Aria of Magic. It also has a proc that increases crit chance by 15, and proc that inflicts 705-1057 mental damage that lasts for 10 seconds and has an average proc rate of 2.3 times per minute.</blockquote> these are the only two that should be compared and unless something was changed, this is wrong.</blockquote>Except that it's not being compared to the troub one. It's being compared to ALL of them.

Felshades

10-10-2011, 04:54 PM

<cite>Novusod wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Cocytus wrote:</cite><blockquote>I don't get why you're complaining.Your myth buff was overpowered and has been pretty much since TSO.Now, it's still overpowered, especially relative to other classes. Most other (melee, at least) classes get minor procs, and either a small amount of crit or a small amount of MA (some classes get both, though that's very uncommon).You, however, get 25% FLURRY AND POTENCY. You can complain when other classes get something that powerful. Seriously.</blockquote>Is what you are forgetting is that the dirge class was ballanced arround that myth for the last 4 expansions. A non-mythical dirge is extremely gimmp. Now with the Myth nerfed the whole class is broken and needs to be revamped.Things like Rezing cast times are completely out of line since it is a requirement that dirges rez in raids. Dirges used to be able to rely myth proc to catch their dps back up after wasting so much time rezing. On top of that dirge CAs do far less damage than other scouts and they have no blue AoE that does any damage.Another thing you are forgetting is that this change nerfed the entire raid because many encounters were based on having 3 dirges in the raid and it was expected those dirges put up a significant of dps to make the dps checks. I don't play a dirge myself and as a raid leader I did not see this nerf coming. I want all the classes to be strong to build the best raid I can. Pretty much all content got harder because of this nerf and that is not something anyone want to see at this point in the expansion.</blockquote>Not to mention the number of dirges rerolling because of it.I know two personally that are going beastlord when the expansion hits over this.

Onorem

10-10-2011, 06:34 PM

<cite>Nadirah@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Novusod wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Cocytus wrote:</cite><blockquote>I don't get why you're complaining.Your myth buff was overpowered and has been pretty much since TSO.Now, it's still overpowered, especially relative to other classes. Most other (melee, at least) classes get minor procs, and either a small amount of crit or a small amount of MA (some classes get both, though that's very uncommon).You, however, get 25% FLURRY AND POTENCY. You can complain when other classes get something that powerful. Seriously.</blockquote>Is what you are forgetting is that the dirge class was ballanced arround that myth for the last 4 expansions. A non-mythical dirge is extremely gimmp. Now with the Myth nerfed the whole class is broken and needs to be revamped.Things like Rezing cast times are completely out of line since it is a requirement that dirges rez in raids. Dirges used to be able to rely myth proc to catch their dps back up after wasting so much time rezing. On top of that dirge CAs do far less damage than other scouts and they have no blue AoE that does any damage.Another thing you are forgetting is that this change nerfed the entire raid because many encounters were based on having 3 dirges in the raid and it was expected those dirges put up a significant of dps to make the dps checks. I don't play a dirge myself and as a raid leader I did not see this nerf coming. I want all the classes to be strong to build the best raid I can. Pretty much all content got harder because of this nerf and that is not something anyone want to see at this point in the expansion.</blockquote>Not to mention the number of dirges rerolling because of it.I know two personally that are going beastlord when the expansion hits over this.</blockquote>Anyone rerolling to beastlord wanted to be a beastlord to begin with. The nerf [violently inhales], but oh well. If you were a dirge only because of the myth proc, you weren't enjoying the class.

Davngr1

10-10-2011, 07:47 PM

<cite>Nadirah@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Davngr1 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Anklesteiner wrote:</cite><blockquote>Is that a fact? Lets really break that down.The Dirge myth buff allows Cacophony of Blades to hit all raid members, adds a 10% damage increase to combat arts, and has a proc that adds 25 Potency and 25 flurry for 12 seconds and has an average proc rate of 2.4 times per minute.The Troubador myth buff allows POTM to hit all raid members, and adds a permanent 10% increase to spell/combat art damage to Aria of Magic. It also has a proc that increases crit chance by 15, and proc that inflicts 705-1057 mental damage that lasts for 10 seconds and has an average proc rate of 2.3 times per minute.</blockquote> these are the only two that should be compared and unless something was changed, this is wrong.</blockquote>Except that it's not being compared to the troub one. It's being compared to ALL of them.</blockquote> huh? dirge myth should have been equal to troubador myth since day one but instead trub got some useless spell crit and pathetic damage proc. dirge has been untouched for a long long long time.. this was going to happen and it should have happend long long ago.. anyone here crying about it is a terrible player that can't live with out easymode and won't be missed. <cite>Nadirah@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote>Not to mention the number of dirges rerolling because of it.I know two personally that are going beastlord when the expansion hits over this.</blockquote> again.. only terrible players will be rerolling or quiting. any player worth a lick all ready knew this was comming and understand why it happend. i'm gona have a beast a lord too and the terrible players crying about loosing a SUPER overpowerd myth proc will be terrible at beastlord too, so frankly who cares what class they fail at?

Lcneed

10-10-2011, 07:56 PM

<cite>Onorem wrote:</cite><blockquote>Anyone rerolling to beastlord wanted to be a beastlord to begin with. The nerf [violently inhales], but oh well. If you were a dirge only because of the myth proc, you are not going to enjoy the traditional bard class.</blockquote>And that's why dirges will be switching to other classes. Why are there so much more dirges than troubadours? Take away the myth proc, they are about the same or some would even say troubadour is a better choice. Take the total number dirges minus the total number troubadours and there you are the number of dirges who are only dirges because of the myth proc. Now most of those are going to be raid dirges who enjoy to see high parses. The end result of this "fix" is less dirges for raids and it is not like there are too many dirges sitting on the side bench right now.

Davngr1

10-10-2011, 08:05 PM

<cite>Lcneed wrote:</cite><blockquote>The end result of this "fix" is less dirges for raids and it is not like there are too many dirges sitting on the side bench right now.</blockquote> good! since it was the cry baby overpowerd dirges that didn't let raid wide buffs take hold! hopefully there so few dirges left that devs are FORCED to make raid wide buffs a reality. no more 8 bard/chanter raid 4TW!

Onorem

10-11-2011, 01:11 AM

<cite>Lcneed wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Onorem wrote:</cite><blockquote>Anyone rerolling to beastlord wanted to be a beastlord to begin with. The nerf [violently inhales], but oh well. If you were a dirge only because of the myth proc, you are not going to enjoy the traditional bard class.</blockquote>And that's why dirges will be switching to other classes. Why are there so much more dirges than troubadours? Take away the myth proc, they are about the same or some would even say troubadour is a better choice. Take the total number dirges minus the total number troubadours and there you are the number of dirges who are only dirges because of the myth proc. Now most of those are going to be raid dirges who enjoy to see high parses. The end result of this "fix" is less dirges for raids and it is not like there are too many dirges sitting on the side bench right now.</blockquote>Myths and their potential procs didn't exist when I started playing my dirge. If you think the nerf is so horrible that you have to betray, or delete and reroll, do what you have to do. Melee groups will still want dirges. Caster groups will still want troubs. I've got a big stack of tissues if anyone needs one.

Wookin

10-11-2011, 09:36 AM

Yes, the good news is that those folks who like to watch television while playing and glance over to hit their chain-COB-macro might wander in to haphazardly fill the raid need, and your competitive players who pushed to get every ounce of dps while performing a support role can play a class that has a more active role and affect on the raid.

Raahl

10-11-2011, 09:45 AM

<cite>Wookin@Lucan DLere wrote:</cite><blockquote>Yes, the good news is that those folks who like to watch television while playing and glance over to hit their chain-COB-macro might wander in to haphazardly fill the raid need, and your competitive players who pushed to get every ounce of dps while performing a support role can play a class that has a more active role and affect on the raid.</blockquote>This does nothing to change the playstyle of Dirges. We just do less damage. So those that watched TV while player will still do so. Though I seriously doubt that many actually did this. While I'm unsure as to what I'll do with my Dirge, I know this the fun factor was just reduced quite a bit. To those that argue we shouldn't have had as much DPS as we did, well that can be said about many a class. So do we really want to go down that road?

Wookin

10-11-2011, 10:49 AM

It changes the caliber of player attracted to the class. How hard has it been to find outstanding troubs? If the potential exists to push your pure dps to shut it and perform or get outparsed by support then the whole raid wins. People can be short-sighted and high-and-mighty til they're playing a single-person game. Whatever makes their grinchy little hearts flutter. I want my teammates to have fun, kill dragons, get sparkly loot.

Korhallen3

10-11-2011, 11:00 AM

If your teammates' only idea of fun is seeing big parses on a class not meant to have big parses, well, then I'd say they need a new game and you need some new friends.

Raahl

10-11-2011, 11:11 AM

<cite>Korhallen3 wrote:</cite><blockquote>If your teammates' only idea of fun is seeing big parses on a class not meant to have big parses, well, then I'd say they need a new game and you need some new friends. </blockquote>DPS is the only way to gauge your performance. Only a small portion of the Dirge community was pulling down the big parses. I'm sorry my 44k parse was such a threat to other peoples parse totals.Now will my character be a buff bot that does nothing else for the raid? Time will tell. But if it is then I will find another class to play and I will let someone else multi-box a buff bot and put them on autofollow.

Onorem

10-11-2011, 11:14 AM

<cite>Wookin@Lucan DLere wrote:</cite><blockquote>It changes the caliber of player attracted to the class. How hard has it been to find outstanding troubs? If the potential exists to push your pure dps to shut it and perform or get outparsed by support then the whole raid wins. People can be short-sighted and high-and-mighty til they're playing a single-person game. Whatever makes their grinchy little hearts flutter. I want my teammates to have fun, kill dragons, get sparkly loot.</blockquote>If I'm focused on a single class, which is rare lately since I bounce around to fill needs, then I'm pushed to do the most I can with that class based on what the game currently allows. If your bards want to be dps classes, let them play dps classes. (My troub is too low level for me to comment on the class. I started slowly leveling one just so that I could tell troubs to stop whining...but lost my motivation once I saw that they had a boost incoming with the dirge nerf.) If I just want to dps, I have a wizard and an assassin. Neither is nearly as fun as the dirge...even if ACT puts them higher on a list.

Wookin

10-11-2011, 11:29 AM

Wouldn't it be lovely if there was room for both playstyles? The people who find it fun to balance supportive play with pushing DPS and the people who find something else about barding fun? There used to be.

Onorem

10-11-2011, 11:48 AM

<cite>Wookin@Lucan DLere wrote:</cite><blockquote>Wouldn't it be lovely if there was room for both playstyles? The people who find it fun to balance supportive play with pushing DPS and the people who find something else about barding fun? There used to be.</blockquote>If your dirges don't try to push dps because of this change, then your dirges are no good. How far they can push dps will still be based on actually playing...just like it was a week ago. Will the overall numbers be down? Yep. Oh well. Work your class.

Wookin

10-11-2011, 11:51 AM

Percentage of dirge dps by auto attack is higher after the nerf. How is that skill based?

Raahl

10-11-2011, 11:56 AM

<cite>Onorem wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Wookin@Lucan DLere wrote:</cite><blockquote>It changes the caliber of player attracted to the class. How hard has it been to find outstanding troubs? If the potential exists to push your pure dps to shut it and perform or get outparsed by support then the whole raid wins. People can be short-sighted and high-and-mighty til they're playing a single-person game. Whatever makes their grinchy little hearts flutter. I want my teammates to have fun, kill dragons, get sparkly loot.</blockquote>If I'm focused on a single class, which is rare lately since I bounce around to fill needs, then I'm pushed to do the most I can with that class based on what the game currently allows. If your bards want to be dps classes, let them play dps classes. (My troub is too low level for me to comment on the class. I started slowly leveling one just so that I could tell troubs to stop whining...but lost my motivation once I saw that they had a boost incoming with the dirge nerf.) If I just want to dps, I have a wizard and an assassin. Neither is nearly as fun as the dirge...even if ACT puts them higher on a list.</blockquote>Did I state I just wanted DPS? No.Did I state I wanted T1 DPS? No.I want the class to be fun. Being a buff bot, is not fun, so DPS is the only thing keeping the class from being totally boring.

Onorem

10-11-2011, 12:02 PM

<cite>Wookin@Lucan DLere wrote:</cite><blockquote>Percentage of dirge dps by auto attack is higher after the nerf. How is that skill based?</blockquote>I haven't seen the same results myself. Are your numbers based on dirges that aren't trying as hard because they still need a tissue?<cite>Raahl wrote:</cite><blockquote>Did I state I just wanted DPS? No.Did I state I wanted T1 DPS? No.I want the class to be fun. Being a buff bot, is not fun, so DPS is the only thing keeping the class from being totally boring.</blockquote>Did I say that you said you just wanted to DPS? No.Did I say that you said you wanted T1 DPS? No.Being a buff bot is boring....so work the class. You're going to be lower on the parse. Oh well. Nothing has changed from the standpoint of pushing as much as you can from what is available.--edit--siad, said....what's the difference?

Raahl

10-11-2011, 12:24 PM

<cite>Onorem wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Wookin@Lucan DLere wrote:</cite><blockquote>Percentage of dirge dps by auto attack is higher after the nerf. How is that skill based?</blockquote>I haven't seen the same results myself. Are your numbers based on dirges that aren't trying as hard because they still need a tissue?</blockquote>I've seen parses from multiple dirges that show this. If you are seeing different, please post the parse. Hopefully I will have some to post later this week.

Onorem

10-11-2011, 12:38 PM

<cite>Wookin@Lucan DLere wrote:</cite><blockquote>(Quoting on my phone is no bueno!) Yes, I'm sure. And I don't believe you. Your intense preoccupation with with tissue makes you suspect.</blockquote><cite>Raahl wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Onorem wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Wookin@Lucan DLere wrote:</cite><blockquote>Percentage of dirge dps by auto attack is higher after the nerf. How is that skill based?</blockquote>I haven't seen the same results myself. Are your numbers based on dirges that aren't trying as hard because they still need a tissue?</blockquote>I've seen parses from multiple dirges that show this. If you are seeing different, please post the parse. Hopefully I will have some to post later this week.</blockquote>/shrug. I might be wrong. As I said, I haven't had much opportunity to test it in situations that matter. Dummy killing hadn't shown a noticeable increase in auto attack damage for me.In any case, I won't back down from suggesting that dirges whining about dps loss need to get over it. It's still a desirable class to have along. (If it makes a difference, I also think that summoners need to do less dps in general as well)

Wookin

10-11-2011, 01:04 PM

Well duh it's a desirable class to have along. Is it a desirable class to play is the issue. Passive contribution is generally less desirable to play.

Cocytus

10-11-2011, 02:05 PM

<cite>Anklesteiner wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Cocytus wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Anklesteiner wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Cocytus wrote:</cite><blockquote>I don't get why you're complaining.Your myth buff was overpowered and has been pretty much since TSO.Now, it's still overpowered, especially relative to other classes. Most other (melee, at least) classes get minor procs, and either a small amount of crit or a small amount of MA (some classes get both, though that's very uncommon).You, however, get 25% FLURRY AND POTENCY. You can complain when other classes get something that powerful. Seriously.</blockquote>Incorrect. We get an increase of 25% potency and a PROC that increases our flurry by 25% for 12 seconds, that as far as I can tell, does not proc as much as it should.At most, from what I have been able to see, the Dirge myth buff adds at the most - 1K overall DPS.</blockquote>It's still way more than any melee class' mythical buff. Way more. So relative to other classes, still overpowered.</blockquote>Is that a fact? Lets really break that down.The Dirge myth buff allows Cacophony of Blades to hit all raid members, adds a 10% damage increase to combat arts, and has a proc that adds 25 Potency and 25 flurry for 12 seconds and has an average proc rate of 2.4 times per minute.The Assassin myth buff gives a permanent increase of 15% chance to flurry, a permanent increase of 30% to all stealth related attacks, as well as a proc that increases their crit chance by 15, and procs poison damage between 548-972 at its base (which drastically increases if the Assassin spends the AA to increase poison damage) that lasts for 12 seconds and has an average proc rate of 2.3 times per minuteThe Brigand myth buff gives a permanent increase of 30% to all rear based combat arts, improves the Brigand's profession debuffs by 10%, as well as a proc that adds 15 Double Attack, and procs piercing damage between 550-830 that last for 12 seconds and has an average proc rate of 2.3 times per minute.The Ranger myth buff improves the base auto attack multiplier by 0.200, gives a permanent increase of 10% damage to all of the Ranger's combat arts, as well as a proc that gives them a 60% chance to use no ammunition on a ranged hit, adds normalize combat art damage based on 20% of their agility, and adds a procs slashing damage between 454-680 that last for 10 seconds and has an average proc rate of 2.2 times per minute.The Swashbuckler myth buff gives a permanent increase of 10 to potency, as well as an added debuff to Flameboyant Strike that decreases an enemies spell damage by 10%. It also has a proc that adds an additional 8% hate transfer to Swarthy Deception IV, inflicts ddirect piercing damage on the target, and inflicts damage of time piercing damage on the target that last for 12 seconds and has an average proc rate of 3.0 times per minute.The Troubador myth buff allows POTM to hit all raid members, and adds a permanent 10% increase to spell/combat art damage to Aria of Magic. It also has a proc that increases crit chance by 15, and proc that inflicts 705-1057 mental damage that lasts for 10 seconds and has an average proc rate of 2.3 times per minute.Going by just the Scout classes, the Assassin myth buff and the Ranger myth buff are definately better. I think it's unfair to compare it to the Fighter classes, because they are an entirely different class that do different things.</blockquote>Don't be obtuse. I'm not talking about the buffs of other classes, I'm SPECIFICALLY talking about the proc effect. Other melee classes do not get a proc that's even remotely close to being on par with the "nerfed" dirge mythical, save for perhaps assassin. But their procs are still inferior.Most melee classes essentially get a small double attack or crit buff - rarely both. Usually between 8-18 of said stat. So honestly, cry me a river, because you get two stats to a HIGH degree (25% potency and flurry?)...yeahseriously, cry me a river.

Onorem

10-11-2011, 02:25 PM

<cite>Wookin@Lucan DLere wrote:</cite><blockquote>Well duh it's a desirable class to have along. Is it a desirable class to play is the issue. Passive contribution is generally less desirable to play. </blockquote>Well duh...totally...Other people seem to be suggesting that it's a worthless class now. It's completely broken. Nobody is going to play a dirge ever again because their dps is down and the class is ruined now.If the class is needed, people will play it and eventually enjoy it. Im playing it either way...and am fine with the chance that I get to play it more often as others whine and don't log in.

Wookin

10-11-2011, 02:30 PM

Maybe some more people will leave and you can have their raid spots too. Yay!

Raahl

10-11-2011, 02:37 PM

<cite>Onorem wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Wookin@Lucan DLere wrote:</cite><blockquote>Well duh it's a desirable class to have along. Is it a desirable class to play is the issue. Passive contribution is generally less desirable to play. </blockquote>Well duh...totally...Other people seem to be suggesting that it's a worthless class now. It's completely broken. Nobody is going to play a dirge ever again because their dps is down and the class is ruined now.If the class is needed, people will play it and eventually enjoy it. Im playing it either way...and am fine with the chance that I get to play it more often as others whine and don't log in.</blockquote>Nobody has suggested it's worthless. If the class is needed people will multi-box one or hire one of those mercenaries coming out in the future.

Gungo

10-11-2011, 03:04 PM

Melee skillsLearn what they do and get more of it; once you cap MA. Dirges will soon learn they can raise thier minimum spread and mitigate this nerf by 20%.Before this change it hardly made a difference for them, now it actually helps.

Raahl

10-11-2011, 03:19 PM

<cite>Gungo@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote>Melee skillsLearn what they do and get more of it; once you cap MA. Dirges will soon learn they can raise thier minimum spread and mitigate this nerf by 20%.Before this change it hardly made a difference for them, now it actually helps.</blockquote>So what it will be a 15-23% nerf instead?

Gungo

10-11-2011, 03:49 PM

<cite>Raahl wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Gungo@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote>Melee skillsLearn what they do and get more of it; once you cap MA. Dirges will soon learn they can raise thier minimum spread and mitigate this nerf by 20%.Before this change it hardly made a difference for them, now it actually helps.</blockquote>So what it will be a 15-23% nerf instead?</blockquote>Its no where near that amount currently. 25% potency is a gain of dps rather then a nerf to CA's since it is greater then the spread difference on dirge abilities and it effects all spells and some procs as well. Furthermore the 25% flurry is a minor nerf to low geared dirges and a greater nerf to high end geared dirges but is mitigated with melee skills. You are looking to a 5-10% nerf at most on an effect everyone was stating they knew would be nerfed eventually.

Anklesteiner

10-11-2011, 03:52 PM

<cite>Cocytus wrote:</cite><blockquote>Don't be obtuse. I'm not talking about the buffs of other classes, I'm SPECIFICALLY talking about the proc effect. Other melee classes do not get a proc that's even remotely close to being on par with the "nerfed" dirge mythical, save for perhaps assassin. But their procs are still inferior.Most melee classes essentially get a small double attack or crit buff - rarely both. Usually between 8-18 of said stat. So honestly, cry me a river, because you get two stats to a HIGH degree (25% potency and flurry?)...yeahseriously, cry me a river.</blockquote>This response completely confuses me because it shows an overall lack of understanding regarding EverQuest 2. You keep mentioning "melee classes" but I clearly broke down what the mytical buffs do for all melee based scout classes (because fighter classes are different and its unfair to compare them) and clearly the Dirge buff is not "overpowered", and in fact is probably the 3rd or even 4th best mythical buff in terms of scouts now.I've already broken down, several times the amount of total DPS the Dirge mythical buff adds to our DPS, with it topping out at just a little bit over 1K. Do you honestly feel that adding 1K to Dirge's overall DPS is game breaking and over powered? Really? Because if that is what you honestly believe then again, you lack an overall understand regarding EverQuest 2.It sounds like you're the one crying a river. All I have done is this thread is present the facts and backed up everything I have said. All you have done is cried about how Dirge's were too over powered.

Neskonlith

10-11-2011, 03:56 PM

<cite>Gungo@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote>Melee skillsLearn what they do and get more of it; once you cap MA. Dirges will soon learn they can raise thier minimum spread and mitigate this nerf by 20%.Before this change it hardly made a difference for them, now it actually helps.</blockquote>Our MT dirge that lost ~30% dps was only at 350-ish MA, because we were in the process of gearing up in EM.As it is with the nerf and the MIA bards, now we face teh unecessary struggle to progress to get the other gear to cap him out so that he can then be only slightly nerfed.

Raahl

10-11-2011, 03:58 PM

<cite>Gungo@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Raahl wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Gungo@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote>Melee skillsLearn what they do and get more of it; once you cap MA. Dirges will soon learn they can raise thier minimum spread and mitigate this nerf by 20%.Before this change it hardly made a difference for them, now it actually helps.</blockquote>So what it will be a 15-23% nerf instead?</blockquote>Its no where near that amount currently. 25% potency is a gain of dps rather then a nerf to CA's since it is greater then the spread difference on dirge abilities and it effects all spells and some procs as well. Furthermore the 25% flurry is a minor nerf to low geared dirges and a greater nerf to high end geared dirges but is mitigated with melee skills. You are looking to a 5-10% nerf at most on an effect everyone was stating they knew would be nerfed eventually.</blockquote>Reports coming in with examples that show 20-30% nerf to DPS. As more parses come in we can average it. Funny thing is it's being reported that the total % of our DPS that's from CA's actually was reduced, so even more from AA. Oh boy.

Davngr1

10-11-2011, 04:14 PM

<cite>Raahl wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Gungo@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Raahl wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Gungo@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote>Melee skillsLearn what they do and get more of it; once you cap MA. Dirges will soon learn they can raise thier minimum spread and mitigate this nerf by 20%.Before this change it hardly made a difference for them, now it actually helps.</blockquote>So what it will be a 15-23% nerf instead?</blockquote>Its no where near that amount currently. 25% potency is a gain of dps rather then a nerf to CA's since it is greater then the spread difference on dirge abilities and it effects all spells and some procs as well. Furthermore the 25% flurry is a minor nerf to low geared dirges and a greater nerf to high end geared dirges but is mitigated with melee skills. You are looking to a 5-10% nerf at most on an effect everyone was stating they knew would be nerfed eventually.</blockquote>Reports coming in with examples that show 20-30% nerf to DPS. As more parses come in we can average it. Funny thing is it's being reported that the total % of our DPS that's from CA's actually was reduced, so even more from AA. Oh boy.</blockquote>of course it was reduced. the old dirge buff was broken and you will never get it back, ever. you will never do that much damage again because the dirge class was never suppose to do that much damage, ever. now go find a different class to play or accept your role as a support class. you will still have plenty of raid spots and you will still have spots in any heroic group you could ever want. that is the benefit of playing a support class NOT being able to easymode parse with a broken myth buff. nothing was balanced around your myth buff, dirge recived the exact same attention that troub received sans all the nerf's that the troubador class has received across the life of this game.

Raahl

10-11-2011, 04:28 PM

<cite>Davngr1 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Raahl wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Gungo@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Raahl wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Gungo@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote>Melee skillsLearn what they do and get more of it; once you cap MA. Dirges will soon learn they can raise thier minimum spread and mitigate this nerf by 20%.Before this change it hardly made a difference for them, now it actually helps.</blockquote>So what it will be a 15-23% nerf instead?</blockquote>Its no where near that amount currently. 25% potency is a gain of dps rather then a nerf to CA's since it is greater then the spread difference on dirge abilities and it effects all spells and some procs as well. Furthermore the 25% flurry is a minor nerf to low geared dirges and a greater nerf to high end geared dirges but is mitigated with melee skills. You are looking to a 5-10% nerf at most on an effect everyone was stating they knew would be nerfed eventually.</blockquote>Reports coming in with examples that show 20-30% nerf to DPS. As more parses come in we can average it. Funny thing is it's being reported that the total % of our DPS that's from CA's actually was reduced, so even more from AA. Oh boy.</blockquote>of course it was reduced. the old dirge buff was broken and you will never get it back, ever. you will never do that much damage again because the dirge class was never suppose to do that much damage, ever. now go find a different class to play or accept your role as a support class. you will still have plenty of raid spots and you will still have spots in any heroic group you could ever want. that is the benefit of playing a support class NOT being able to easymode parse with a broken myth buff. nothing was balanced around your myth buff, dirge recived the exact same attention that troub received sans all the nerf's that the troubador class has received across the life of this game.</blockquote>If you read the reasons for the nerf it was because it didn't scale well with the ever increasing stats. Basically it was broken and would continue to ballon as new expansions came out. Did this allow for some dirges to maximize the benefit, yes. But nerfs don't only hit those that maximize.Easymode parse! LOL! I'm sure my 44k DPS was easymode to you. Just because you see a large % of our DPS coming from AA doesn't mean that we are just sitting there. Nobody here is asking for the old buff back. Reading comprehension for the win.Troubador nerfs? LOL! They were gimped from the get-go and needed some much needed love.

SOE-MOD-08

10-11-2011, 06:49 PM

Attacking each other is not needed nor is it constructive. Please abide by forum guidelines when posting.

Xenxex

10-11-2011, 07:11 PM

<cite>Gungo@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Raahl wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Gungo@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote>Melee skillsLearn what they do and get more of it; once you cap MA. Dirges will soon learn they can raise thier minimum spread and mitigate this nerf by 20%.Before this change it hardly made a difference for them, now it actually helps.</blockquote>So what it will be a 15-23% nerf instead?</blockquote>Its no where near that amount currently. 25% potency is a gain of dps rather then a nerf to CA's since it is greater then the spread difference on dirge abilities and it effects all spells and some procs as well. Furthermore the 25% flurry is a minor nerf to low geared dirges and a greater nerf to high end geared dirges but is mitigated with melee skills. You are looking to a 5-10% nerf at most on an effect everyone was stating they knew would be nerfed eventually.</blockquote>5--10%? No - Example went from 274k on kolsg to 205k. This is just based on 1 time, would need more burn encounters to give a better avg. AA dmg went from 170k to 111k, and CA dmg dropped down a bit too, but not nearly as much as AA dmg. To bad dirges the nerf is smaller than dirges who know what they were doing initially. You saying just adding melee skills to the factor to compensate is troll worthy. Good dirges will still parse good, just not as good. Bad dirges will parse like healers. The nerf is expected, but the compensation is non existent.

Gungo

10-11-2011, 07:20 PM

<cite>Xenxex@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>You saying just adding melee skills to the factor to compensate is troll worthy. </blockquote>Troll worthy if you have no idea what you are talking about. I never said it would completely negate the nerf but instead mitigate the nerf.The fact is melee skills went from doing almost nothing for dirges to all of a sudden making it more viable to offset this nerf by reaching an obtainable amount that will increase the minimum damage by at least 20%. If you were incapable of understanding this simple mechanic you would think its troll worthy, but it is not my fault you dont understand simple game mechanics.

Anklesteiner

10-11-2011, 07:39 PM

<cite>Gungo@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Xenxex@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>You saying just adding melee skills to the factor to compensate is troll worthy. </blockquote>Troll worthy if you have no idea what you are talking about. I never said it would completely negate the nerf but instead mitigate the nerf.The fact is melee skills went from doing almost nothing for dirges to all of a sudden making it more viable to offset this nerf by reaching an obtainable amount that will increase the minimum damage by at least 20%. If you were incapable of understanding this simple mechanic you would think its troll worthy, but it is not my fault you dont understand simple game mechanics.</blockquote>It's interesting that a member of Strike is coming into this thread to debate the changes made to Dirge's, when Strike's own Dirge, Spiderz, has repeatedly mentioned how his DPS took a big hit.Maybe you should talk more about the changes made to Dirge's with the actual Dirge on your raid force before you come in here and talk about things you seem to have no real understanding on?

Xenxex

10-11-2011, 07:45 PM

You must not play a dirge to think adding melee skills is going to do a big difference. If so that it just makes what you think you're saying all the more moot. Even if they boosted our CA by a permanent 25%(static from myth) it would still be a hard hit to dps just because our CAs would still hit like paper air planes. Bards generally have 3-4 CAs that hit decently. So even if we got this so called desired amount the offset amount would still be way outside of your imagined 5-10%.

Neskonlith

10-11-2011, 07:55 PM

It's nice that high end raid forces have HM gear to mitigate the nerf, but what about raid forces that are not geared up yet?The dirge nerf didn't only hit those bards who moved on to greener pastures, it also hit our raid force - so why was the "fix" a good thing for us?

Xenxex

10-11-2011, 08:02 PM

Actually the nerf hit high end dirges as well. We still parse high just not as high. Before.<h4>Throne of Storms: Hall of Legends [Challenge] - [2] 9:45:39 PM | Imperator Kolskeggr - [01:38] (10/3/2011) 10:00:04 PM | Xenxex</h4><table style="color: #cae0e6;" cellspacing="2" cellpadding="2" width="100%"><tbody><tr><th>Type</th><th>Damage</th><th>EncDPS</th><th>Average</th><th>MinHit</th><th>MaxHit</th><th>Hits</th><th>Swings</th><th>Crit%</th></tr><tr><td>Auto-Attack (Out)</td><td>16,703,772</td><td>170,446.65</td><td>26,305.15</td><td>17,918</td><td>28,283</td><td>635</td><td>646</td><td>100%</td></tr><tr><td>Skill/Ability (Out)</td><td>9,747,722</td><td>99,466.55</td><td>15,546.61</td><td>1,394</td><td>127,160</td><td>627</td><td>641</td><td>88%</td></tr><tr><td>Outgoing Damage</td><td>26,451,494</td><td>269,913.20</td><td>20,959.98</td><td>1,394</td><td>127,160</td><td>1,262</td><td>1,287</td><td>94%</td></tr></tbody></table>After.<div> Throne of Storms: Hall of Legends [Challenge] - [2] 6:25:06 PM | Imperator Kolskeggr - [01:51] (10/8/2011) 6:44:42 PM | Xenxex</div><div><table cellspacing="2" cellpadding="2" width="100%"><tbody><tr><th>Type</th><th>Damage</th><th>EncDPS</th><th>Average</th><th>MinHit</th><th>MaxHit</th><th>Hits</th><th>Swings</th><th>Crit%</th></tr><tr><td>Auto-Attack (Out)</td><td>12,905,862</td><td>116,269.03</td><td>16,112.19</td><td>4,869</td><td>26,679</td><td>801</td><td>830</td><td>100%</td></tr><tr><td>Skill/Ability (Out)</td><td>8,833,194</td><td>79,578.32</td><td>16,178.01</td><td>3,330</td><td>125,439</td><td>546</td><td>561</td><td>94%</td></tr><tr><td>Outgoing Damage</td><td>21,739,056</td><td>195,847.35</td><td>16,138.87</td><td>3,330</td><td>125,439</td><td>1,347</td><td>1,391</td><td>98%</td></tr></tbody></table></div><div></div><div></div><div>In perspective it could have been much worse. However im not sure how badly it hit EM raiding dirges, but i imagine its not too pretty. Need a week to get some better numbers anyways but this is just a small example. </div><div></div>

Amanathia

10-11-2011, 08:03 PM

Everyone knew the nerf was coming, the mythical is still super good, there are things you can do to improve your damage now, and now would be a great time to try to get your CAs made more worthwhile. Insanely OP auto attack damage isn't coming back. If you are going to quit just go do so and get on with your life, it's a game. If you aren't having fun playing your dirge because you lost an OP mythical that everyone knew would be changed, go play something you do enjoy. It was obvious to everyone that dirge melee dps was not where it was supposed to be and that a change would be made sooner or later.This would be like if say, guardians did close to T1 dps while all the rest of the fighters were way way back around the level of troubs or something. Everyone would know a nerf was coming.

Xenxex

10-11-2011, 08:14 PM

Most bards keep weapon skills where we can as well as dps mod and or agil. However we need cast speed to so its a bit of a balancing act in the end. You can skimp out on all cast speed adorns to use some weapon skill adorns but you may sometimes end up lapping into your AA swing. Even with nerf your AA is still higher(depends on gear) than your CA dmg.

Wookin

10-11-2011, 09:30 PM

It's been 'expected' for years. Doesn't make you feel any better seeing your name drop down the parse list. I've said it a bunch, I'm sure. Making support classes have an active, fun role in raids is a win for us all. Reducing support classes to more and more passive roles is a lose for everyone but mercs. Everyone should really refrain from suggesting people who get disheartened by the nerf should quit. It's not like there's a steady stream of new people to take their place keeping our game alive and healthy.

Rasttan

10-12-2011, 01:51 AM

<cite>Wookin@Lucan DLere wrote:</cite><blockquote>It's been 'expected' for years. Doesn't make you feel any better seeing your name drop down the parse list. I've said it a bunch, I'm sure. Making support classes have an active, fun role in raids is a win for us all. Reducing support classes to more and more passive roles is a lose for everyone but mercs. Everyone should really refrain from suggesting people who get disheartened by the nerf should quit. It's not like there's a steady stream of new people to take their place keeping our game alive and healthy.</blockquote>When tanks ask for more dps we get casterated and dps classes jump our sh..... being 1 dimensional is not fun for any class.

Felshades

10-12-2011, 03:49 PM

<cite>Amanathia wrote:</cite><blockquote>Everyone knew the nerf was coming, the mythical is still super good, there are things you can do to improve your damage now, and now would be a great time to try to get your CAs made more worthwhile. Insanely OP auto attack damage isn't coming back. If you are going to quit just go do so and get on with your life, it's a game. If you aren't having fun playing your dirge because you lost an OP mythical that everyone knew would be changed, go play something you do enjoy. It was obvious to everyone that dirge melee dps was not where it was supposed to be and that a change would be made sooner or later.This would be like if say, guardians did close to T1 dps while all the rest of the fighters were way way back around the level of troubs or something. Everyone would know a nerf was coming.</blockquote>Super good? Are you on something? Maybe if our CAs and spells didn't hit like little girls the potency would be useful, but since we dont have much for flurry to begin with(I have something like 3-5% if I don't put battle cry on myself and I never get to)My dps personally dropped 20k. Mostly EM/Drunder EMx4, bunch of launch HM down but not full clears. I generally pulled between 80 and 100k depending on the fight. I'm struggling to hit 80k on bosses.

Felshades

10-12-2011, 03:50 PM

<cite>Wookin@Lucan DLere wrote:</cite><blockquote>It's been 'expected' for years. Doesn't make you feel any better seeing your name drop down the parse list. I've said it a bunch, I'm sure. Making support classes have an active, fun role in raids is a win for us all. Reducing support classes to more and more passive roles is a lose for everyone but mercs. Everyone should really refrain from suggesting people who get disheartened by the nerf should quit. It's not like there's a steady stream of new people to take their place keeping our game alive and healthy.</blockquote>And not like the disgruntled dirges aren't quitting either. Just about every guild I see recruiting wants another one. But aren't finding them.

thewarriorpoet

10-12-2011, 04:32 PM

So all the parses in the world aren't gonna change anything for me. I like the class. I don't play it to DPS, if I did I'd make a non-bard scout. Anyways, I am no where near top shelf as far as gear goes. I'm ry'gorr with full x2 and starting to get some drunder/x4 pieces. Anyways, I run the tower x2 weekly. Before the nerf I was averaging 60k (+/- 2k). Now I'm at about 68k average (+/- 4 or 5k). So I got dinged a bit but the change seems to have made me more unpredictable.It makes sence really. Before, a rediculous amount of dmg was from auto. If you make a considerable amount of that always at max, then most of your dmg will not be random and you'll be very predictable. Now, with slightly less from auto (only because arts/spells got a small bump) and no normalizer (the max dmg proc) I am swinging a lot more in my parses. Its more interesting but almost more annoying when trying to be reliable for a raid. Though, it does allow for some pleasant (and not so pleasant) surprises. Like when I hit 66k one fight (a personal best in the tower) without any gear changes.

Notsovilepriest

10-12-2011, 04:54 PM

<cite>Nadirah@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Wookin@Lucan DLere wrote:</cite><blockquote>It's been 'expected' for years. Doesn't make you feel any better seeing your name drop down the parse list. I've said it a bunch, I'm sure. Making support classes have an active, fun role in raids is a win for us all. Reducing support classes to more and more passive roles is a lose for everyone but mercs. Everyone should really refrain from suggesting people who get disheartened by the nerf should quit. It's not like there's a steady stream of new people to take their place keeping our game alive and healthy.</blockquote>And not like the disgruntled dirges aren't quitting either. Just about every guild I see recruiting wants another one. But aren't finding them.</blockquote>Perpetual problem with all utility classes in guilds, it's not as fun to do mediocre DPS while supporting others than it is to put up big numbers yourself for most people

Raahl

10-12-2011, 05:26 PM

<cite>thewarriorpoet wrote:</cite><blockquote>So all the parses in the world aren't gonna change anything for me. I like the class. I don't play it to DPS, if I did I'd make a non-bard scout. Anyways, I am no where near top shelf as far as gear goes. I'm ry'gorr with full x2 and starting to get some drunder/x4 pieces. Anyways, I run the tower x2 weekly. Before the nerf I was averaging 60k (+/- 2k). Now I'm at about 68k average (+/- 4 or 5k). So I got dinged a bit but the change seems to have made me more unpredictable.It makes sence really. Before, a rediculous amount of dmg was from auto. If you make a considerable amount of that always at max, then most of your dmg will not be random and you'll be very predictable. Now, with slightly less from auto (only because arts/spells got a small bump) and no normalizer (the max dmg proc) I am swinging a lot more in my parses. Its more interesting but almost more annoying when trying to be reliable for a raid. Though, it does allow for some pleasant (and not so pleasant) surprises. Like when I hit 66k one fight (a personal best in the tower) without any gear changes.</blockquote>Dinged? Unless the 68k was a typo, which I suspect is the case, you weren't dinged.BTW show a before and after parse. I ask this because it's been reported that AA damage is even higher as a percentage of our damage.