Troubador Adjustments

[Xelgad]

<p>Hello Troubadors!We have finally completed the first draft of our Troubador revamp and would like to get your feedback on these ideas. Our primary goal is to give Troubadors more options during combat that can have a clear effect on the fight. Viewed individually, some of the changes may be considered minor, but we hope all these small and moderate changes will add up to a much more dynamic and interesting class.</p><ul><li>Countersong no longer has an immunity timer. It now lasts for 12 seconds, does not dispel when an ability is used and reduces the target's AE Auto Attack Chance by up to 100% as well as ability damage.</li></ul><p>We really like the potential Countersong has to make an obvious difference in group and raid content, and we're trying yet another implementation to see if it can reach that potential more often.  One note: Potency is currently calculated at the beginning of the cast, so if you wait until you see a casting bar to use Countersong, it will not take effect on that ability.</p><ul><li>Vexing Verses now also deals minor damage and reduces the target's casting speed by up to 32%.</li><li>Breathtaking Bellow can no longer be resisted. Its radius has been increased to 15 meters.</li><li>Demoralizing Processional now also reduces the target encounter's primary attributes in addition to its offensive skills.</li><li>Enhance: Demoralizing Processional now also improves the attribute reduction.</li></ul><p>We made some minor changes here so that these abilities have more effect. It is difficult to tell exactly how much effect attribute debuffs have, but at least now Demoralizing Processional will always make some difference.</p><ul><li>Sandra's Deafening Strike now restores some of the power it drained to the Troubador.</li><li>Tap Essence now affects the encounter and the group. The damage have been reduced.</li><li>Painful Lamentations has had its damage increased.</li><li>Thunderous Overture is now a PBAoE that affects up to 8 targets.  The reuse has been increased to 10 seconds.</li><li>Perfect Shrill has had its damage increased.</li></ul><p>We wanted to give the class a little more control over power as well as obviously mixing in new encounter and area of effect abilities. Rather than going over all the numbers here, let's wait until they make it to test and see how they play out there. Some individual spells are going to do less DPS in some situations, but others were buffed to more than compensate.</p><ul><li>Enhance: Rejuvenating Celebration now also improves the maximum health granted by Rejuvenating Celebration.</li><li>Raxxyl's Rousing Tune now also improves agility.</li><li>Jester's Cap no longer has an immunity timer. </li></ul><p>Some minor buff changes. More control with Jester's Cap instead of having immunity timers dictate the target.</p><ul><li>Demoralization is now "Abhorrent Verse." Abhorrent Verse transfers 50% of the threat from the Troubador's group to the target for a short time. This does not transfer threat from fighters.</li></ul><p>Hopefully this new advancement will give you another way to make a definite impact on the group or raid, should you choose to pick it up.</p>

[Raviel]

<p>finally, a blue aoe. countersong change looks nice, cant really comment on the rest without seeing numbers on test. Breathtaking Bellow could use some damage, imo, as its still not worth casting even if its unresistable</p>

[aislynn00]

<p><cite>Xelgad wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Demoralization is now "Abhorrent Verse." Abhorrent Verse transfers 50% of the threat from the Troubador's group to the target for a short time. This does not transfer threat from fighters.</p><p>Hopefully this new advancement will give you another way to make a definite impact on the group or raid, should you choose to pick it up.</p></blockquote><p>I presume this isn't affected by the 50% hate transferral cap (Abhorrent Verse as described affords 300% hate transferral) and that the target is "raid friend"?  If so, sounds like a nice bit of extra utility.</p>

[aislynn00]

<p><cite>Xelgad wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><ul><li>Countersong no longer has an immunity timer. It now lasts for 12 seconds, does not dispel when an ability is used and reduces the target's AE Auto Attack Chance by up to 100% as well as ability damage.</li></ul><p>We really like the potential Countersong has to make an obvious difference in group and raid content, and we're trying yet another implementation to see if it can reach that potential more often.  One note: Potency is currently calculated at the beginning of the cast, so if you wait until you see a casting bar to use Countersong, it will not take effect on that ability.</p></blockquote><p>Since you can't use Countersong against an AE that is already being cast and AE timers often fluctuate more than 12 sec either way, the short duration makes it rather hard to get anything useful out of the ability on raids. </p><p>I think turning Countersong into a small (say, 5% - 10%) but <em>maintainable</em> Potency debuff would be much better.</p>

[Xenxex]

<p>Nice changes for a start. However going to have to seriously /hate all over PBAoE if its troub only since every "bard" in general has been asking for blue AEs since god knows how long.</p><p>Give them SDA built into a CA, similar to how Rhythm blade currently works.</p>

[Anestacia]

<p><cite>Xelgad wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><ul><li>Jester's Cap no longer has an immunity timer. </li></ul></blockquote><p>Thank you for all these changes and a huge thnk you for the Jcap immunity change!</p>

[Writer Cal]

<p>It sounds like some really good stuff in theory.  Will have to see how it all plays out in action.  Hopefully it'll even get me wanting to play my troub again!</p><p>The blue AoE and the change to JCap are pure win!</p>

[tfetterman]

<p>Everything sounds great, but where is this effect that is going to be better than an OP myth?</p>

[Shotneedle]

<p>JCap immunity removal is dumb. I believe it's there so troubs don't pick their two favorite targets and continually cast it on them. Now instead of it being rotated around 8 targets, it'll be locked on two. And those two are like to be scouts, because mages are all capped on cast/recovery/reuse, so I can basically say bye to ever seeing it as a mage.</p><p>Raxxyl's change is also meh, but I can see the reasoning since mage groups usually include a scout dps now. I'd say to balance it out you should drop the AGI amount on their self buff to the same amount that dirges get.</p><p>Also, to the guy saying AOEs aren't static, only two (three) T9 raid mobs I can recall that have AOEs that aren't on static timers and speed up the longer you fight. Mosassus in Underfoot Depths and the spider (both modes) in Sullon's Spire.</p>

[tfetterman]

<p>Can you make Chaos Anthem debuff something other than WIS?  STA would be AWESOME.  The only time that's any good is if you are fighting a healer mob.  How often does that happen?</p>

[tfetterman]

<p>If you are going to remove the jcap immunity timer, why not just cut the abilities in half...25 reuse, 7.5 cast speed, 7.5 recovery, 5 CB...and make it a static group buff.</p>

[tfetterman]

<p>I never really have any power issues unless the mob has a power drain ability.  What would be really nice, Engergizing Balad groupwide instead of adding a power restoration to Sandra's Deafening Strike.  Dirges get a groupwide rez, so why not?</p>

[Trynt]

<p><cite>tfetterman wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>If you are going to remove the jcap immunity timer, why not just cut the abilities in half...25 reuse, 7.5 cast speed, 7.5 recovery, 5 CB...and make it a static group buff.</p></blockquote><p>Because jcap is raidwide, of course.</p>

[Trynt]

<p><cite>Buffrat@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>JCap immunity removal is dumb. I believe it's there so troubs don't pick their two favorite targets and continually cast it on them. Now instead of it being rotated around 8 targets, it'll be locked on two. And those two are like to be scouts, because mages are all capped on cast/recovery/reuse, so I can basically say bye to ever seeing it as a mage.</p></blockquote><p>Agreed.  The immunity removal is silly.</p>

[Gungo]

<p><cite>Karnos@Guk wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Xelgad wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Demoralization is now "Abhorrent Verse." Abhorrent Verse transfers 50% of the threat from the Troubador's group to the target for a short time. This does not transfer threat from fighters.</p><p>Hopefully this new advancement will give you another way to make a definite impact on the group or raid, should you choose to pick it up.</p></blockquote><p>I presume this isn't affected by the 50% hate transferral cap (Abhorrent Verse as described affords 300% hate transferral) and that the target is "raid friend"?  If so, sounds like a nice bit of extra utility.</p></blockquote><p>I one point i thought certain abilities could overcap and the cap for hate transfers was 50% flat. But now I wonder if the 50% transfer cap only means 50% transfer cap PER PERSON.</p>

[tfetterman]

<p><cite>Trynt wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>tfetterman wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>If you are going to remove the jcap immunity timer, why not just cut the abilities in half...25 reuse, 7.5 cast speed, 7.5 recovery, 5 CB...and make it a static group buff.</p></blockquote><p>Because jcap is raidwide, of course.</p></blockquote><p>I understand it can be used raidwide, but this will change that.  It removes the silliness of removing the immunity.  If you remove the timer, it will just be two people getting it anyway.  Why not just give it to the group and call it a day?</p>

[Davngr1]

<p>cool changes so far but could you give troubs some sort of melee skill/accuracy buff?  or maybe make them a totaly range class by giving them some sort of bonus for using a bow like rangers get, of course on a smaller scale.    i think making dirge melee with all the scouts/tanks and troubs ranged with all the mages would work.    </p><p> one last thing..   is there anyway you could come up with a way to make troubadors better equiped for 6 man group buffing?     i mean they do a good job of buffing the mages but their tank buffs are pretty useless compared to dirges.  i think making dirge and troub tank buffs equal but different would be cool, i see you're tying to do that with the hate transfer but i think there's room a another one or two.   </p><p>  also the accuracy buff i mention should be for the troub only not the group members since that would be taking away from the dirges role.</p><p>  ps. don't EVER give dirges an AOE!  just for the lulz..</p>

[Davngr1]

<p>why is removing the immunity silly?</p><p> every one is rocking enough reuse to pretty much render the spell almost useless other then the 10% cb and recovery(for some classes).      yes classes with 85%+ reuse should not take priority over classes with 30% reuse, it would be silly.</p>

[feldon30]

<p><cite>tfetterman wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>If you are going to remove the jcap immunity timer, why not just cut the abilities in half...25 reuse, 7.5 cast speed, 7.5 recovery, 5 CB...and make it a static group buff.</p></blockquote><p>Because then you would be taking away another "thing to do" during groups/raids for Troubadors.</p><p>The problem with Bards is, they're getting to be dull to play. They have very little to actually do during a group/raid. It's mostly buff/debuff, then DPS. There isn't really anything "heroic" or critical that bards get to do DURING a group/raid that influences the success of the group/raid. Bards should be instrumental (pun intended) in how the fight is going, with some crazy abilities to turn the tide. Instead they've become a DPS scout class with a few buffs/debuffs.</p><p>I suggested in another thread some cool ideas that could be done for bards (and I've added a few):</p><ul><li>Grant another player a special ability (heal, taunt, de-taunt, 15% Crit/Crit Mit buff, Intercept-like ability)</li><li>Swap agro with the tank (would then need to give troubs a rescue-like ability)</li><li>Swap health between the bard and a groupmate.</li><li>Reduce the damage of the next AoE by 30%</li><li>Extend the range of a groupmate's weapons for a short time</li><li>Change the damage output type of a groupmate to spell damage, elemental, noxious, or melee damage</li></ul><p>There are so many possible things that could be done that wouldn't be overpowered yet would make bards more interesting, and valuable to certain types of tanks, healers, etc.</p><p>And so you don't think I am talking out of my {donkey}, I have a 90 dirge that I have done *some* grouping/raiding with.</p>

[tfetterman]

<p>If you actually read the changes, you would see that they are planning on giving us more to do. </p>

[SOE-MOD-02]

This post has moved: <a href="/eq2/posts/preList.m?topic_id=499962&post_id=5630655" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">/eq2/posts/preList.m?topic_id=49996...post_id=5630655</a> Insults are not necessary or permitted on these forums.

[Xenxex]

<p><cite>Davngr1 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>cool changes so far but could you give troubs some sort of melee skill/accuracy buff?  or maybe make them a totaly range class by giving them some sort of bonus for using a bow like rangers get, of course on a smaller scale.    i think making dirge melee with all the scouts/tanks and troubs ranged with all the mages would work.    </p><p> one last thing..   is there anyway you could come up with a way to make troubadors better equiped for 6 man group buffing?     i mean they do a good job of buffing the mages but their tank buffs are pretty useless compared to dirges.  i think making dirge and troub tank buffs equal but different would be cool, i see you're tying to do that with the hate transfer but i think there's room a another one or two.   </p><p>  also the accuracy buff i mention should be for the troub only not the group members since that would be taking away from the dirges role.</p><p>  ps. don't EVER give dirges an AOE!  just for the lulz..</p></blockquote><p>True, then we can make angry post on how its unfair that after 6 years bards finally get a blue AE but its going only to troubs - totally logical! Lets fix troubs so they do more dmg by giving them what they both want instead of redoing some simple mechanic changes or buffs. They should give you SDA, or a buff that makes all your spells hit for double dmg for a period of time. However they choose to redo some of your abilities as a form of a bandaid - sure its preliminary but its just a baby step.</p>

[Writer Cal]

<p>I really don't mean to be offensive, but the posts from Dirges here remind me a whole lot of all the threads for Ranger improvements over the past few years where Assassins, who were so far ahead of Rangers that they openly posted about how much better Assassins were vs Rangers at the time, insisted that they should get equal boosts whenever any proposed boosts to Rangers were mentioned.</p><p>A decrease in Agi on the Troub self-buff to "balance" Agi being added to Raxxyl's?  A demand for a blue AoE when Dirges have done waaaay more DPS than Troubs and are preferred by more of the classes in the game?  Are Troubs allowed to have anything equally as cool as what Dirges already have?</p>

[rvt]

<p>1. jc immunity removal is cool, we have dirge's gravitas and shammie's ROA, so I don't think JC will be locked on 1-2 players within the raid. Besides, good troubs know who to JC during certain encounters.</p><p>2. I guess some of the changes will make troubs even more powerful in multiple encounters, we already outparse dirges on them.</p><p>3. Giving troubs more power control would certainly balance the illus impotency (compared to coercers), so 2 ducks killed in 1 shot <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p>4. The fun of the class is that is half-scout, half mage, personally I would be disappointed if we would turn ranged.</p><p>5. TO becoming BAoe and 10 secs reuse makes total sense, its the only CA I dislike casting, since has long casting time and depends preponderantly and more than other CA's on recovery, hence messing up autos.</p><p>6. SOE could change only 1 thing and if our dps gets comparable to dirges, I am happy.</p>

[tfetterman]

<p><cite>rvt wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>1. jc immunity removal is cool, we have dirge's gravitas and shammie's ROA, so I don't think JC will be locked on 1-2 players within the raid. Besides, good troubs know who to JC during certain encounters.</p><p>2. I guess some of the changes will make troubs even more powerful in multiple encounters, we already outparse dirges on them.</p><p>3. Giving troubs more power control would certainly balance the illus impotency (compared to coercers), so 2 ducks killed in 1 shot <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" /></p><p>4. The fun of the class is that is half-scout, half mage, personally I would be disappointed if we would turn ranged.</p><p>5. TO becoming BAoe and 10 secs reuse makes total sense, its the only CA I dislike casting, since has long casting time and depends preponderantly and more than other CA's on recovery, hence messing up autos.</p><p>6. SOE could change only 1 thing and if our dps gets comparable to dirges, I am happy.</p></blockquote><p>Given your point number six, I wouldn't mind just getting the dirge's myth effect and call it a day.</p>

[feldon30]

<p><cite>tfetterman wrote:</cite></p><blockquote>Suggestion four...read the proposed changes..really?  You had to write this?<p>Suggestion six...what would this accomplish other than waste dev time and give you something to write?</p></blockquote><p>They were ideas to try something different, to make the class more interesting to make it more than a garden variety Scout with a few buffs.</p><p>I'm a writer. Obviously you're not a fan. <img src="../images/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" /></p>

[Xenxex]

<p><cite>Daenee@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I really don't mean to be offensive, but the posts from Dirges here remind me a whole lot of all the threads for Ranger improvements over the past few years where Assassins, who were so far ahead of Rangers that they openly posted about how much better Assassins were vs Rangers at the time, insisted that they should get equal boosts whenever any proposed boosts to Rangers were mentioned.</p><p>A decrease in Agi on the Troub self-buff to "balance" Agi being added to Raxxyl's?  A demand for a blue AoE when Dirges have done waaaay more DPS than Troubs and are preferred by more of the classes in the game?  Are Troubs allowed to have anything equally as cool as what Dirges already have?</p></blockquote><p>Anyways the point isnt to rile all you guys up over Dirge opinions. Honestly your class is unfortunate because of the lack of forsight on SoEs behalf when it came to designing you and your myth. Troub seems like a class built around self sacrifice. Every troub whos asked about DPS tips always says how they spec/adorn to help everyone but themselves. Troub needs AA to boost their personal dps more so that the group of hungry mages eyeing them down for all their worth will get what they want while the troub can parse like hes not invisible. When dirge spec our AA everything we put into us ultimately boost our DPS just as much as those around us. Good troubs can parse over 180k on burn fights as is, while some dirges can exceed 250k. </p><p>While being in the mage group some troubs try to take Deadly Dance which is lame b/c the actual range on the dmg modifier is heavily limited and thus does not always reach the mages in the group. That aside alot of problems could be solved by giving troubs a spell dmg modifier on their myth similar to how dirge myth ups our melee dps. </p><p>Point is that countless methods to improve troubs exist but dev's are approaching it in a method that seems wrong. If you think things like JC immunity removal and having a blue AE will put you on even footing then so be it.</p>

[tfetterman]

<p><cite>Xenxex@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Daenee@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I really don't mean to be offensive, but the posts from Dirges here remind me a whole lot of all the threads for Ranger improvements over the past few years where Assassins, who were so far ahead of Rangers that they openly posted about how much better Assassins were vs Rangers at the time, insisted that they should get equal boosts whenever any proposed boosts to Rangers were mentioned.</p><p>A decrease in Agi on the Troub self-buff to "balance" Agi being added to Raxxyl's?  A demand for a blue AoE when Dirges have done waaaay more DPS than Troubs and are preferred by more of the classes in the game?  Are Troubs allowed to have anything equally as cool as what Dirges already have?</p></blockquote><p>Anyways the point isnt to rile all you guys up over Dirge opinions. Honestly your class is unfortunate because of the lack of forsight on SoEs behalf when it came to designing you and your myth. Troub seems like a class built around self sacrifice. Every troub whos asked about DPS tips always says how they spec/adorn to help everyone but themselves. Troub needs AA to boost their personal dps more so that the group of hungry mages eyeing them down for all their worth will get what they want while the troub can parse like hes not invisible. When dirge spec our AA everything we put into us ultimately boost our DPS just as much as those around us. Good troubs can parse over 180k on burn fights as is, while some dirges can exceed 250k. </p><p>While being in the mage group some troubs try to take Deadly Dance which is lame b/c the actual range on the dmg modifier is heavily limited and thus does not always reach the mages in the group. That aside alot of problems could be solved by giving troubs a spell dmg modifier on their myth similar to how dirge myth ups our melee dps. </p><p>Point is that countless methods to improve troubs exist but dev's are approaching it in a method that seems wrong. If you think things like JC immunity removal and having a blue AE will put you on even footing then so be it.</p></blockquote><p>Finally, a dirge that gets it!  The changes they are talking about isn't going to make the class any more fun to play or really provide any huge boost in dps.  I still think they should just give us the dirge myth proc and call it a day.</p>

[Onoddil]

I agree. While these changes are all nice, they're just things that are long overdue to fix things that are broken; they're not a revamp, or an overhaul, or a fix to the imbalance of troub/dirge/whatever dps potential. I don't want the copy/paste dirge myth though, because that doesn't seem fitting with the class... I'd much rather have max spell damage, which while not adding as much dps (due to not affecting our autos) will affect spells which we buff, and perhaps procs (not sure how that would be calculated)... If it max damaged spell procs it'd be quite nice, tbh. Spell double attack would be nice as well (perhaps adding it to the two MA items in the STA line, so we can gain 20spell ma, and mages can get 10 from fortissimo, making it more relevant again?). At present these changes are too balanced (Tap being encounter but its damage being reduced) to "fix" the class. It's nice, but it's only a start. Ono

[tfetterman]

<p><cite>Onoddil wrote:</cite></p><blockquote>I agree. While these changes are all nice, they're just things that are long overdue to fix things that are broken; they're not a revamp, or an overhaul, or a fix to the imbalance of troub/dirge/whatever dps potential. I don't want the copy/paste dirge myth though, because that doesn't seem fitting with the class... I'd much rather have max spell damage, which while not adding as much dps (due to not affecting our autos) will affect spells which we buff, and perhaps procs (not sure how that would be calculated)... If it max damaged spell procs it'd be quite nice, tbh. Spell double attack would be nice as well (perhaps adding it to the two MA items in the STA line, so we can gain 20spell ma, and mages can get 10 from fortissimo, making it more relevant again?). At present these changes are too balanced (Tap being encounter but its damage being reduced) to "fix" the class. It's nice, but it's only a start. Ono</blockquote><p>Spell double attack is worthless to a troub.  If they aren't going to make all of our CAs spells, then max spell damage is worthless too.  The programming for something like this for spells would be way more difficult than the melee proc.  That's why it should be a bard proc and not just a dirge proc.  We are scouts after all.  Don't forget that.  Your largest amount of damage comes from your weapons.</p>

[Onoddil]

Given that, after weapons, spell procs and then spells are my most damage, and I'm a spell buffer, I personally don't see what's wrong with spell double attack (if they can get it to double up procs too and add it to fortissimo so I continue to buff mages, which is, you know, my job) and max spell damage. If you want the dirge proc, just betray... I want to be different from that. If I wanted to just do dpsdpsdps, I'd roll a wizard. That aside, I think Countersong should remain at a 20 second duration, just because even at 20s it only catches one aoe (two if they are being spammed at us by several mobs), and it just reduces the chance of catching the cast of the aoe and it bugging out. Ono

[Errrorr]

<p><cite>tfetterman wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Onoddil wrote:</cite></p><blockquote>I agree. While these changes are all nice, they're just things that are long overdue to fix things that are broken; they're not a revamp, or an overhaul, or a fix to the imbalance of troub/dirge/whatever dps potential. I don't want the copy/paste dirge myth though, because that doesn't seem fitting with the class... I'd much rather have max spell damage, which while not adding as much dps (due to not affecting our autos) will affect spells which we buff, and perhaps procs (not sure how that would be calculated)... If it max damaged spell procs it'd be quite nice, tbh. Spell double attack would be nice as well (perhaps adding it to the two MA items in the STA line, so we can gain 20spell ma, and mages can get 10 from fortissimo, making it more relevant again?). At present these changes are too balanced (Tap being encounter but its damage being reduced) to "fix" the class. It's nice, but it's only a start. Ono</blockquote><p>Spell double attack is worthless to a troub.  If they aren't going to make all of our CAs spells, then max spell damage is worthless too.  The programming for something like this for spells would be way more difficult than the melee proc.  That's why it should be a bard proc and not just a dirge proc.  We are scouts after all.  Don't forget that.  Your largest amount of damage comes from your weapons.</p></blockquote><p>Have you ever played a troub?</p><p>Check your dps, and see how much of it comes from Auto attack, in comparison to spells. Spell double attack would boost a troubs DPS a lot, as well as max spell damage would.</p><p>Yes, it wouldn't be as high as a dirges myth proc, as that effects all there CA's as well as autos, but it would be a good start.</p><p>If you want the Dirge mythical, I suggest you go betray, its a different class, and just asking for the proc is idiotic. You don't see Bruisers demanding the 50% strikethrough effect from monks, or Furies wanting the endless warden power proc.</p><p>The main problem for troubs at the moment, is that they are unable to measure their personal dps in comparison to dirges, because of the benefits they bring to a group. The DPS a troub gives to a mage group, far outweights the dps a dirge gives to a tank group. This isn't likely to change soon unfortunately.</p><p>These changes outlined, while positive that they are actually listening, are pretty irrelevant in the long run. A blue aoe, ok, it's useful, but then the changes remove TO. For single target fights, its going to nerf troub dps more than anything.</p><p>Jcap - Either a troub is going to just self cast it all fight long, or is going to get bullied into casting it on one person in a raid. This is just going to cause arguments and annoy the other 23 classes in raid.</p><p>Tap Essence - The change is quite nice, I have to admit I like this one. Its for those 'oops we've been powerdrained' moments, where you click manastone, click tap essence, and your group has some power again for a cure.</p><p>Countersong - Its semi useful, 12 seconds of a mob with 90% less damage. But no change to reuse? So every 10 minutes I can have 12 seconds of not having to joust an aoe. Positive change, still needs work. Could be made more like the Predator buff Noxious Enfeeblement, and could be enhanced by AA.</p><p>Other changes, all kind of irrelevant in any way in my opinion.</p><p>To sum up: Positive Start, long, long way to go.</p>

[ffd700]

<p><cite>Errror wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>...Spell double attack would boost a troubs DPS a lot, as well as max spell damage would...</p></blockquote><p>I think that would be a nice addition to the troubador mythical proc, both spell Double Cast and max spell damage, and while the proc is active it converts all their combat arts into spells.</p><p>Also, I would like to see the immunity timer removed off of Gravitas for dirges.  <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" /></p>

[Silzin]

<p><cite>Xelgad wrote:</cite></p><blockquote>*Snip*Some individual spells are going to do less DPS in some situations, but others were buffed to more than compensate.*Snip*</blockquote> <p><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Times New Roman";">This line tells me that there was more changes to damage of abilities that didnt make the list and the other all damage output of the class should be much higher.  This with the other changes makes we very happy and hopeful to see the changes on test.  </span></p>

[inzewood]

<p><cite>tfetterman wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Everything sounds great, but where is this effect that is going to be better than an OP myth?</p></blockquote><p>an op myth is the only thing make peoples play dirge, remove the epic and dirges will become an unplayed class and still needed by guilds.</p><p>i played troub for years and tbh dirge is 1000x more boring to play, plus the fact you have to rez.</p><p>too bad troub get changes now i betrayed <img src="/smilies/1069449046bcd664c21db15b1dfedaee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> (and 90% of eq2 troubs leaved probably)</p>

[Gungo]

<p>Changes for troubs I recommend a short term buff like Combat mastery for troubs but self only atm that maxes spell damage. A single target buff that increases spell auto atk multi 20%, spell auto flurry 5% and spell auto dps by 20%.A troubs group haste buff should also have spell auto haste.A group buff for each person that procs a 15sec spell auto aoe 20% buff.</p>

[Hikkymouse]

<p>Nice to see revamp draft! Hope can see next draft soon. Here is my feedback/request.</p> <p>**Bria's Entrancing Sonnet Needs longer duration and shorter reuse.</p> <p>**Countersong No longer has an Immunity/Doesn't dispel till expire is good change! But wanna see shorter reuse(3~5min).</p><p>**Daelis' Dance of Blades Adds Piercing, Slashing and Ranged skill(+50 at lv90). and adds Casting Skills to dirgeselfbuff(forgot name) also <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" /></p> <p>**Jester's Cap Immunity shouldn't be removed completely. Need something to prevent to stack multiple JC effects...</p> <p>**Lyrical Mastery Add double spell attack chance(+15%).</p> <p>**Perfection of the Maestro Add Potency, Ability Mod or Casting Speed instead of INT, now works only for Mage.</p>

[Banditman]

<p>The 100 pound gorilla no one seems to want to talk about is, surprisingly, still not being talked about.</p>

[Gaige]

<p><cite>tfetterman wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I understand it can be used raidwide, but this will change that.  It removes the silliness of removing the immunity.  If you remove the timer, it will just be two people getting it anyway.  Why not just give it to the group and call it a day?</p></blockquote><p>Pointless because as sir Buffrat pointed out mages don't need JCap and troubs aren't normally grouped with DPS scouts.</p><p><div><p><cite>Banditman wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>The 100 pound gorilla no one seems to want to talk about is, surprisingly, still not being talked about.</p></blockquote><p>Give us a hint!</p></div></p>

[Shotneedle]

<p>I play both a dirge and troub. My point to Raxxyl's/Dance of Blades is because troubs have always had a higher agi self buff because of the lack of AGI on their group buff. Now that they're getting AGI on their group buff there's no reason their self buff shouldn't match dirges /shrug</p><p>Also, I would be for giving troubs +15% doublecast chance on their tso endline. Maybe even 20%. Adding any buffs to spell auto attack is dumb because the dps is so terrible, it wouldn't be noticed anyway.</p><p>I think Jcap immunity should be 1 minute instead of 2 minutes/nothing.</p>

[Brienae]

<p>I look forward to testing all of these changes. I'm sure more could be done, but for now this is a step in the right direction.<img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" /></p>

[DeciimusTiger]

<p>I know playing a bard means you're support. That's your role - you chose the class to play, no deal with it... but my primary issue with the WHOLE thing - is every single thing a Dirge casts which is a benefit to his group - is also a direct benefit to himself while 95% of what a Troubador's role is in a functioning raid group - doesnt benefit the Troubador for squat.</p><p>THAT'S the problem.</p><p>I agree with previous posts - Make all of our CAs into Spells... give us a WORTHWHILE Mythical buff - etc... make it so playing a troubador who buffs mages - is ACTUALLY BENEFICIAL to the Troubador as well...</p><p>Why do we have to fall on the sword as a support class while Dirges dont? Balance.</p>

[latesttoon]

<p>Troubadour Charm as indicated in the previous post does require a much longer duration. 8 minutes like it used to be would be great, or longer (until cancelled).</p><p>PvP</p><p>Mez/Charm are a troubadours speciality, yet are both useless in PVP. Mez is cured by any class using abilities or multiple items. Charm in PvP is a mez, which has a 2second cast time and cannot be cast while moving, and lasts less than our normal mez + resists. Pretty useless. </p><p>not a very powerful solo class, especially when our buffs are for magic--</p><p>there isn't much point in being a troub when you can be a dirge in pvp (except on those rare occassions you have a stacked group).</p>

[Achzizra]

<p>They should leave Thunderous Overture as it is today. Instead make Painful Lamentations a PBAoE spell, shorten its cast time and increase its damage. Leave in the interrupt. </p><p>The change to Tap Essence.. I like that it's affecting the group, that'll probably make up for the damage nerf against single targets. </p><p>Countersong should have an increased duration like suggested above, if it's going to retain its 10min recast. 18s or 20s base duration with 5-7min base recast would be better, if it's meant to be used actively, perhaps even a shorter base recast. Cast time should remain instant. Or, if the recast remains at 10 minutes, why not increase the duration to 30-45 seconds? Then it's almost guaranteed to make a difference, while still only being useable once during a raid encounter.</p><p>In my opinion, it's better with an effect that can be used actively, and makes a difference each time, than a one-off that may or may not make a difference that very moment and after that returns to the oblivion from whence it came.</p><p>Not sure what to think about the JC immunity being taken out. The immunity means the ability is cycled across more people (4-5 generally, including the troub), while taking out the immunity would make it more likely to be cycled across only 3 (troub included), though it definitely offers a bit more flexibility of use. Why not increase the JC duration a bit instead? Add some spell double-attack to it?</p><p>As for Breathtaking Bellow - why not a higher-level version?</p>

[Laiina]

<p><cite>tfetterman wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Can you make Chaos Anthem debuff something other than WIS?  STA would be AWESOME.  The only time that's any good is if you are fighting a healer mob.  How often does that happen?</p></blockquote><p>I have been playing for years, raidng for about 2 years of that, and to this day I am still not sure that any of the WIS, INT, and similar stat debuffs on the mobs really do much good.</p><p>If they work on mobs the same way that they work on players (??), it seems to be that the actual effects would be pretty close to nothing on raid mobs. Another problem - with all classes that have debuffs - is that instead of a percentage debuff, it is a number. And that number does not seem to scale very well at all with the large power increases in DoV.</p><p>I would like to know from a developer how the mechanics of such debuffs actually work. In the old system of stats - where for example a WIS debuff would presumably actually reduce the mobs resists, it now apparently would do nothing at all to a mob in that respect. It's only effect would be on a priest mob, where at best it would perhaps reduce the power pool + a slight decrease in heal effectiveness.</p>

[DeciimusTiger]

<p>Decrease the power pool <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p>When was the last time a raid mob/encounter was OOM :-p</p><p>So - so useless.</p>

[Laiina]

<p><cite>Davngr1 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>why is removing the immunity silly?</p><p>  every one is rocking enough reuse to pretty much render the spell almost useless other then the 10% cb and recovery(for some classes).      yes classes with 85%+ reuse should not take priority over classes with 30% reuse, it would be silly.</p></blockquote><p>In raids there is a lot of truth to that. In the past, raids in SF and other older zones I could actually see a big difference when Jcap was cast on my mage. Nowadays, with DoV raid gear.. not so much. In fact, if not for the audio trigger set up for when I get Jcap, I probably would not even notice it. It sued to be that people in my Troubs group would fight over getting Jcap - nowadays it is hardly ever mentioned at all since so many are at or close to the (useful) cap.</p><p>Perhaps what needs to be looked at is what Jcap itself does, not the immunity timers.</p>

[Onoddil]

I very much like keeping Overture as it is and just changing Painful to be a blue - perhaps with a slight (very slight) damage boost coz it's just so terrible atm. Overture is nice as it is. Reduce CSong reuse and keep original duration imo. Add spell ma somewhere (fort or myth buff), and add something extra to PotM I quite like too, as it's a bit bleh atm. Pot sounds good, but whatever really. JC immunity removal altogether sounds a bit daft, but I guess a good troub will still cycle between several people so it's just giving you the choice rather than the requirement... Spell haste on Allegretto should be there imo (just coz we're mage buffers), but it doesn't matter either way. Ono

[Laiina]

<p>A few general comments. First, I appreciate the devs finally taking a look at troubs - if these tweaks actually end up being effective I may actually get back into raiding with my troub.</p><p>However...</p><p>Countersong will still remain essentially useless with the super long recast timer. Right now I can't even recall the last time I ever used it.</p><p>Some spells/CA's do not affect epic mobs - how about giving us something that DOES affect epics?</p><p>The Jcap immunity removal may help some, but the fact is in raids most people are at or near their caps anyway, and Jcap simply does not do much in DoV.</p><p>Not sure how useful the PB AoE will be - OK for soloing I guess, but overall I just don't see it doing much for troubs in groups or raids.</p><p>As others have mentioned - dirge buffs also help the dirge - troub buffs, eh.. not so much.</p>

[DeciimusTiger]

<p>Also - is there something in the works for our class specific gear sets? Last I noticed - most of it doesnt address any of our spell casting time, reuse, dmg, etc...</p><p>wazzup with that?</p>

[Lcneed]

<p><cite>inzewood wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>tfetterman wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Everything sounds great, but where is this effect that is going to be better than an OP myth?</p></blockquote><p>an op myth is the only thing make peoples play dirge, remove the epic and dirges will become an unplayed class and still needed by guilds.</p><p>i played troub for years and tbh dirge is 1000x more boring to play, plus the fact you have to rez.</p><p>too bad troub get changes now i betrayed <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/1069449046bcd664c21db15b1dfedaee.gif" border="0" /> (and 90% of eq2 troubs leaved probably)</p></blockquote><p>I am hoping troubie gets a huge boost, because that will give me an option to betray now that they nerfed dirge mythical into oblivion on test...<cite></cite></p>

[Lempo]

<p><cite>Lcneed wrote:</cite></p><blockquote>I am hoping troubie gets a huge boost, because that will give me an option to betray<span style="text-decoration: underline;"> <strong><span style="color: #ff9900;">now that they have made the dirge mythical more reasonable</span></strong></span><cite></cite></blockquote><p>I fixed that for you.</p>

[tfetterman]

<p>Yeah, I'm very happy that they are working on troubs, but they totally screwed the pooch on the dirge nerf.  I'm really getting sick of this game.</p>

[Lempo]

<p><cite>tfetterman wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Yeah, I'm very happy that they are working on troubs, but they totally screwed the pooch on the dirge nerf.  I'm really getting sick of this game.</p></blockquote><p><cite>tfetterman wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Everything sounds great, but where is this effect that is going to be better than an OP myth?</p></blockquote><p>Yet you have nothing constructive to say about the dirge mythical and what could be done to balance it but you did proclaim that it was OP. </p>

[tfetterman]

<p><cite>Errror wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>tfetterman wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Onoddil wrote:</cite></p><blockquote>I agree. While these changes are all nice, they're just things that are long overdue to fix things that are broken; they're not a revamp, or an overhaul, or a fix to the imbalance of troub/dirge/whatever dps potential. I don't want the copy/paste dirge myth though, because that doesn't seem fitting with the class... I'd much rather have max spell damage, which while not adding as much dps (due to not affecting our autos) will affect spells which we buff, and perhaps procs (not sure how that would be calculated)... If it max damaged spell procs it'd be quite nice, tbh. Spell double attack would be nice as well (perhaps adding it to the two MA items in the STA line, so we can gain 20spell ma, and mages can get 10 from fortissimo, making it more relevant again?). At present these changes are too balanced (Tap being encounter but its damage being reduced) to "fix" the class. It's nice, but it's only a start. Ono</blockquote><p>Spell double attack is worthless to a troub.  If they aren't going to make all of our CAs spells, then max spell damage is worthless too.  The programming for something like this for spells would be way more difficult than the melee proc.  That's why it should be a bard proc and not just a dirge proc.  We are scouts after all.  Don't forget that.  Your largest amount of damage comes from your weapons.</p></blockquote><p>Have you ever played a troub?</p><p>Check your dps, and see how much of it comes from Auto attack, in comparison to spells. Spell double attack would boost a troubs DPS a lot, as well as max spell damage would.</p><p>Yes, it wouldn't be as high as a dirges myth proc, as that effects all there CA's as well as autos, but it would be a good start.</p><p>If you want the Dirge mythical, I suggest you go betray, its a different class, and just asking for the proc is idiotic. You don't see Bruisers demanding the 50% strikethrough effect from monks, or Furies wanting the endless warden power proc.</p><p>The main problem for troubs at the moment, is that they are unable to measure their personal dps in comparison to dirges, because of the benefits they bring to a group. The DPS a troub gives to a mage group, far outweights the dps a dirge gives to a tank group. This isn't likely to change soon unfortunately.</p><p>These changes outlined, while positive that they are actually listening, are pretty irrelevant in the long run. A blue aoe, ok, it's useful, but then the changes remove TO. For single target fights, its going to nerf troub dps more than anything.</p><p>Jcap - Either a troub is going to just self cast it all fight long, or is going to get bullied into casting it on one person in a raid. This is just going to cause arguments and annoy the other 23 classes in raid.</p><p>Tap Essence - The change is quite nice, I have to admit I like this one. Its for those 'oops we've been powerdrained' moments, where you click manastone, click tap essence, and your group has some power again for a cure.</p><p>Countersong - Its semi useful, 12 seconds of a mob with 90% less damage. But no change to reuse? So every 10 minutes I can have 12 seconds of not having to joust an aoe. Positive change, still needs work. Could be made more like the Predator buff Noxious Enfeeblement, and could be enhanced by AA.</p><p>Other changes, all kind of irrelevant in any way in my opinion.</p><p>To sum up: Positive Start, long, long way to go.</p></blockquote><p>Your post humors me.  The basic fact that troubs are scouts overrides any of your logic.  The dirge proc will cause more dps on a troub than any of the ideas they would come with here.  However, since they are nerfing that proc, I can see that the best we are going to get are the changes they gave us.</p>

[Xenxex]

<p>Dirge change is kinda of ridiculous - Instead of properly buffing you guys to bring you more in line with us. They went the greater evil route to nerf our myth and buff you guys anyways. Im sure somewhere some desk jockey dev is doing fail math on how your changes and our nerf will closer together parse wise. However without testing it things are still up in the air, but this does not bode well. </p>

[tfetterman]

<p><cite>Lempo@Everfrost wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>tfetterman wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Yeah, I'm very happy that they are working on troubs, but they totally screwed the pooch on the dirge nerf.  I'm really getting sick of this game.</p></blockquote><p><cite>tfetterman wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Everything sounds great, but where is this effect that is going to be better than an OP myth?</p></blockquote><p>Yet you have nothing constructive to say about the dirge mythical and what could be done to balance it but you did proclaim that it was OP. </p></blockquote><p>That's funny how you take all of that our of context.  If you actually read all of the other posts I have out there, you would know what I thought would change it.</p>

[Bruener]

<p>As a Tank I was hoping they would address the lack of Tank utility that Troubs give compared to Dirges.  In the current raid game mechanics it is a lot harder to tank from a Troub group versus a Dirge group.  Dirges offer not only DPS buffs for melee type, but they also offer much greater survivability and hate to a Tank.  Fighters are constantly requesting encounters that require more than 2 Fighters to tank...and with the lack of buffing to a Tank that means more Dirge group set ups.</p><p>It would be nice if Troubs could offer more survivability and better hate management for a Fighter in their group based on active game play.</p>

[Buzzing]

<p>MUAHAHAHAA I love me some troubies!!!</p>

[Shotneedle]

<p>Dirges buff themselves, yes. Troubs buff their group infinitely more than dirges do, imo.</p><p>You guys spend too much time directly comparing troub personal dps vs dirge personal dps. In short these changes will make troubs a lot better than dirges for raids, but I know you guys won't complain. You obviously couldn't handle being pretty balanced to dirges (boo hoo you did 40-50k less dps than dirges but made up for it by buffing other people with more than 40-50k worth of buffs), and need to be the best at personal dps, best at buffing, and best at debuffing.</p>

[Onoddil]

<p>Tbh, keep changes that are currently on test but: add spell ma to the two items in the STA line as well as melee ma; increase csong duration to 20s and base to 5-7 mins; add potency to potm; add slight combat skills to daeli's and slight casting skills to death's door; add something similar to the new dirge myth proc such as cb/reuse to our myth proc; return overture to its original state and make painful the blue with the increase in damage (mitigated on test, obviously); remove extra agi from raxxyl's and give JC *some* immunity because that's a bit silly imo :p. Either that, or keep the dirge myth proc as it is because nerfing is worse than buffing/fixing, and add max spell damage to ours in a similar vein. Just do the same for each of the two subclasses and it's fine...</p><p>EDIT: @Buffrat, if you notice my well thought out post only contains one thing that I'd like to see to buff personal dps... A new myth proc. Our one does 400dps. Everything else is just extra utility that accidentally buffs us (see potency on potm). I even suggested removing something that does not fit with the "theme" of Troubadours. Please don't /rage.</p><p> Ono</p>

[Laiina]

<p><cite>Lcneed wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I am hoping troubie gets a huge boost, because that will give me an option to betray now that they nerfed dirge mythical into oblivion on test...<cite></cite></p></blockquote><p>That's a joke I assume. Compared to the troub myth, the dirge myth is probably the most overpowered myth in the game.</p><p>Fixing it - finally - is not a nerf.</p><p>And having seen about 10x as many troubs betray to dirge as going the other way, that should tell that something is wrong somewhere.</p>

[tfetterman]

<p>One last thing, any chance of changing the myth effect to Crit Bonus rather than Crit Chance.  Given the changes and the new dirge myth, I think that's fair.</p>

[Shotneedle]

<p>Troub myth was better than dirge myth.</p>

[tfetterman]

<p><cite>DeciimusTiger wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Also - is there something in the works for our class specific gear sets? Last I noticed - most of it doesnt address any of our spell casting time, reuse, dmg, etc...</p><p>wazzup with that?</p></blockquote><p>I don't think anyone gets it.  Troubs are scouts first and foremost.  Don't change the gear!</p>

[tfetterman]

<p><cite>Buffrat@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Troub myth was better than dirge myth.</p></blockquote><p>Ha Ha...that's funny!</p>

[DeciimusTiger]

<p><cite>tfetterman wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>DeciimusTiger wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Also - is there something in the works for our class specific gear sets? Last I noticed - most of it doesnt address any of our spell casting time, reuse, dmg, etc...</p><p>wazzup with that?</p></blockquote><p>I don't think anyone gets it.  Troubs are scouts first and foremost.  Don't change the gear!</p></blockquote><p>Dude, 90% of our buffs are directed toward spells & casters. Our biggest hitters other than straight melee are Spells... so on what planet does it make sense to have combat art mods on our gear?</p>

[Anestacia]

<p><cite>Buffrat@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Dirges buff themselves, yes. Troubs buff their group infinitely more than dirges do, imo.</p><p>You guys spend too much time directly comparing troub personal dps vs dirge personal dps. In short these changes will make troubs a lot better than dirges for raids, but I know you guys won't complain. You obviously couldn't handle being pretty balanced to dirges (boo hoo you did 40-50k less dps than dirges but made up for it by buffing other people with more than 40-50k worth of buffs), and need to be the best at personal dps, best at buffing, and best at debuffing.</p></blockquote><p>In theory, I would agree here.  IMO both bards are SUPPORT classes and should make support thier number 1 function.  However, there are SO many people that have turned this game into a pure parsing numbers game and you have some (fools imo) that come down on the bards because they feel that thier parse is not good enough.  They rarely stop to think that THEY would not be getting those numbers w/o us.  I dont advocate a bard just standing there of course; do as much DPS as you can without neglecting to buff the people with the REAL dps.  And by the same token, dont worry about what your bard is parsing, you just worry about your dps and be thankful you have that support class to help you.</p>

[Shotneedle]

<p><cite>tfetterman wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Buffrat@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Troub myth was better than dirge myth.</p></blockquote><p>Ha Ha...that's funny!</p></blockquote><p>I'm sorry you don't see that 10% group potency was worth as much if not more than the dirge's self max hit proc.</p>

[adolf102]

<p>It would be great if you could update <strong>"Raxxyl's Rousing Tune"</strong></p><p>Before Int and Wis become useless, it was giving us as a caster benefits as well.</p><p>Now it does not. (well tiny with Mitigation)</p><p>Maybe it can boost all stats instead of Wis and Int?</p><p>Since it's take concentration slot it should be something worth turning on. Now I don't use it when soloing and I don't us it in groups either.</p>

[SOE-MOD-07]

This post has moved: <a href="/eq2/posts/preList.m?topic_id=502816&post_id=5631108" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">/eq2/posts/preList.m?topic_id=50281...post_id=5631108</a> Removed at poster's request

[Netty]

<p><cite>Buffrat@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>tfetterman wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Buffrat@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Troub myth was better than dirge myth.</p></blockquote><p>Ha Ha...that's funny!</p></blockquote><p>I'm sorry you don't see that 10% group potency was worth as much if not more than the dirge's self max hit proc.</p></blockquote><p>Are you joking or what? Dirges get 10% CA troubs to spells. raidwide to cob/potm. And last effect max damage to melee vs small damage proc and 15% crit. How was the troub myth better again?</p><p>Dirge myth was op and facts still stands that its on of the best mythical buffs out there if it stays as it is on test. But this is a troub thread so pls try and keep the dirge complains out of it.</p><p>Spell DB attack instead of the CC porc and increas it to around 30% or something. Some changes look good really some are as xelgad said minor. Agi on raxxyl's wont do much tho still something for the other scouts in the group for the guilds that have a birg or what ever in the mage group. I do agree aswell with boosting the groups surviveability abit would help both if you run with a crusader or just the mages in the group. So that would be cool really.</p><p>Power... well to be honest sure its nice to counter the coecer since the illu is abit weaker to power feed but i rather would see them boosting the illu power feed instead of giving it to troubs.</p>

[xdeadumx]

<p>What i have to say might make most troubs angry.</p><p>Give us poisons. we are a scout and should be able to use them. </p><p>As well, keep dirge melee range and make troubs more of ranged dps. Give troubs some pbae short term caster dmg increases. We buff casters, let us stand with them where they can hear our songs. Which imo dirge should keep a slightly higher dps output due to having to rez and being in proximity of frontals and close ranged ae's.</p><p>Everything else is a step in the right direction. Thanks for giving us some lovins.</p><p>Troubum - Antonia-Bayle.</p>

[Shotneedle]

<p><cite>Netty wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Buffrat@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>tfetterman wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Buffrat@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Troub myth was better than dirge myth.</p></blockquote><p>Ha Ha...that's funny!</p></blockquote><p>I'm sorry you don't see that 10% group potency was worth as much if not more than the dirge's self max hit proc.</p></blockquote><p>Are you joking or what? Dirges get 10% CA troubs to spells. raidwide to cob/potm. And last effect max damage to melee vs small damage proc and 15% crit. How was the troub myth better again?</p><p>Dirge myth was op and facts still stands that its on of the best mythical buffs out there if it stays as it is on test. But this is a troub thread so pls try and keep the dirge complains out of it.</p><p>Spell DB attack instead of the CC porc and increas it to around 30% or something. Some changes look good really some are as xelgad said minor. Agi on raxxyl's wont do much tho still something for the other scouts in the group for the guilds that have a birg or what ever in the mage group. I do agree aswell with boosting the groups surviveability abit would help both if you run with a crusader or just the mages in the group. So that would be cool really.</p><p>Power... well to be honest sure its nice to counter the coecer since the illu is abit weaker to power feed but i rather would see them boosting the illu power feed instead of giving it to troubs.</p></blockquote><p>Because 10% potency to spells for an illy, warlock, wizard, troub, and sometimes 3rd mage is worth a LOT more than 10% potency to a fighter, dirge, and swash.</p><p>Like. 50k vs 10k.</p>

[Catharz]

<p>Any chance in charm duration being increased to something usable again?</p><p>It used to be possible to use it to solo some content, but since it was nerfed it's been practically useless.And troubs need all the help they can get with soloing.</p>

[justanotherplaya]

<div><strong>Countersong has had its immunity removed.  It now lasts for 12 seconds, does not dispel when an ability is used and reduces the targets AE Auto Attack Chance as well as ability damage.</strong></div><div>> Not a bad change. Wish countersong was more useful than a 1-time-deal per mob but I guess if it were any better it could be abused by stacking tons of troubs? :/</div><div></div><div><strong>Jester's Cap no longer has an immunity timer.</strong></div><div>> Doesn't seem like it's really going to change what we do with Jcap much anyways. Jcap self. Choose 2 targets, jcap them. Repeat.</div><div></div><div><strong>Thunderous Overture now has a 10 second reuse but is a point blank area effect ability that affects up to 8 targets.</strong></div><div>> Not so sure about this one. Tbh I don't use it as often as I should because I run 4 sec weapons and if I'm not careful I delay my autoattack. I guess it's now more useful for ROing on encounters so this is one of those things I'll probably like using when I get used to it.</div><div></div><div><strong>Sandra's Deafening Strike now restores some of the power it stole to the troubador.</strong></div><div>> Nice, I particularly like this change.</div><div></div><div><strong>Demoralization is now "Abhorrent Verse."  Abhorrent Verse transfers 50% of the threat from the Troubador's group to the target for a short time.  This does not transfer threat from fighters</strong></div><div>> Also think this is a great change.</div><div></div><div></div><div><strong>And the rest of the changes are nice and all....but....</strong></div><div>1) I was really hoping to see a revamped myth buff. There's just something about the 15% crit chance buff and minor damage proc that just doesn't sit right with me. If this was the only thing that was changed, I think alot of people would be somewhat satisfied - just make it more useful in the current expac. For me it could be anything, power proc, minor spell double attack proc, group elemental/arcane ward proc, flurry proc, minor group pot, minor group cb, cb blahblahblah or maybe an offensive proc like a debuff. Something cool might be a proc that blocks aoes so that the better troubs can time it with turnstrike and bladedance to maximize dps. :/</div><div></div><div>2) Energizing ballad. Is it just me or do I only get to cast this once, maybe twice a fight? I don't think reuse affects it's 3 min cooldown too. It just seems so bad for an endline. Imagine if it were on a 1 min cooldown or maybe 30 seconds? I don't think it'd be overpowered as it's single target and it'd be a much more useful utility that'd be fun to use. It would also make us more wanted in groups if chanters are in short supply.</div><div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><div><strong>Aside from the potential changes, here's my real complaint:</strong></div><div>This might be long winded but I want to get it out. Troubs are fairly balanced as a utility class as is - they lack personal dps but add more to mage group dps and the raid as a whole. Alot of people have mentioned this and I think the real problem is that troubs feel invisible. As an example: the top dps get praised for parses, the top healers get praised for cures and survivability, etcetc. Alot of these classes have ways to standout from the crowd - keeping multiple groups high in power, good and fast ressing, whatever.</div><div></div><div>So then how do you tell a good troub from a bad troub? To boost the parse of my mage group all I really do is time my deadly dance and jcap with timewarp and push out some VC's. The rest is just rotating the jcap and dpsing. Sadly on some fights all I get to do is sit back and eat a sandwich while pressing 4 buttons to dps at range because my dps isn't worth how much the mob would heal for if I missed an aoe block and died. It's really not that hard to play the utility role and to be honest no one cares. My mage wants to keep me happy so I can continue to let him parse, but when we progress in hard mode no one thinks "oh thank god for that troub."</div><div></div><div>I feel like dirges get by because they can put out good dps while ressing. They also get stuff like sonic barrier and confront fear and some fights are dependent on getting those resses down. If people notice, they also get a psuedo cure and a heal that comes in handy sometimes. Troubs? Less dps than dirges, don't really contribute to survivability aside from arcane/elemental ward/cures. Even when I parse within 5k to a better geared dirge (~130k to 135k), no one cares. If I were playing a dirge I would have parsed more, but in this case, the dirge still outparsed me and that's all they can see. Our single target power flow can't be used much and countersong is a one time use. The sad truth is, when it really comes down to it, people rate how well I play my troub by how much dps I put out personally and less by how well I help my mage. VC, good aoe blocks, and good usage of god spells is all that can make a troub stand out currently. In my opinion, the real solution to this problem is not to make troubs overpowered dpsers or give them a blue aoe or buff their damage or nerf the dirge myth but to give them ways to play to the class so that they are more recognizable for the utility they provide. For starters there's countersong, energizing ballad, and the maintained buffs but none of these really seem to stand out from what I can tell. I do think the hate transfer is a good start but I'm not sure it's enough.</div><div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><div><strong>TLDR:</strong> No one cares about the troub except for the mage/scouts that get boosts to their dps and even then it doesn't take a genius to figure out how. Also, no one will ever praise you for your dps given the other players you know are competent. Until we get a unique class-defining tool or our dps skyrockets, I don't feel troubs will ever feel satisfying to play.</div><div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><div>Don't get me wrong. I like the fact that changes are being made but I don't think this update has really touched the root of the problem.</div>

[Achzizra]

<p><cite>justanotherplaya wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><div><strong>Thunderous Overture now has a 10 second reuse but is a point blank area effect ability that affects up to 8 targets.</strong></div><div>> Not so sure about this one. Tbh I don't use it as often as I should because I run 4 sec weapons and if I'm not careful I delay my autoattack. I guess it's now more useful for ROing on encounters so this is one of those things I'll probably like using when I get used to it.</div></blockquote><p>Just wanted to say, I use 4s weapons as well, but I manage Dancing Blade + Thunderous Overture between two autoattacks without problems and TO is usually my first or second highest dps contributor of my active spells and abilities. It took some readjusting to get to that point, as I thought much like you before, but I found it to be well worth it. Changing TO to a 10s recast PBAoE is a nerf on single target fights. Which the majority of raid named fights tend to be. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/136dd33cba83140c7ce38db096d05aed.gif" border="0" /></p><p>There's no reason why they couldn't change Painful Lamentations into a PBAoE spell instead and leave Thunderous Overture as it is today. Painful Lamentations is already multi-target, so it'd make a lot more sense to change. And PL is a spell that could <strong>really</strong> use some changes. It's slow cast, slow recast, low damage. <strong>This</strong> is the spell they should be changing.</p><p>As for your comment about troubs feeling invisible.. I hear ya. Perhaps the change to Tap Essence will help. A boost of the cure chance (how about 15-30% chance to cure an entire group, in addition to the 25% chance of curing a person?) or ward size, or resist numbers of the resist buffs might help a little, so the raid would actually notice a difference between having a troub in raid buffing those resists, and not having one.</p><p>Tl;dr: Thunderous Overture is fine as it is on Live today. Painful Lamentations should be made into a PBAoE instead. Full group cure chance for resist buffs?</p>

[Rocc]

<p>Jesters Cap and Gravitas should be passive group only AE.</p><p>I hate casting them on both my dirge and troub.</p><p>I hate when people get mad because you gave someone else UT or BC !!!!! I have actually seen people rage about not getting one or the other. It's complete BS that we are put in that position in the first place. Heaven forbid you should want to buff yourself with UT or BC. It would be a 20 minute argument in most guilds/raids.</p><p>I hate getting 10 different tells during a raid asking for Battle Cry, Upbeat Tempo, Jesters Cap and Gravitas. I macro all of jcap and gravitas thru profit and ACT. So it gets spread around to the correct classes during raids. But honest, it's the thing I hate most about playing my bards. With 6 debuffs on each, rezzing, jcap, gravitas, etc, we have substantially less time to join the fight and focus on dps. </p><p>I suggest making them group only to cut down on the amount of useless clicking we have to do in raids and to at least APPEAR that were not showing favoritism to one player over another. Making them group only also ensures a few raid spots for bards.</p><p>Blue AoE's - EVERY class should be able to defend itself in a multi group encounter. Both bards are long overdue for one or two blue AoE's. Dont give it to one and not the other please.</p>

[justanotherplaya]

<p><cite>Chanzoon@Unrest_old wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Jesters Cap and Gravitas should be passive group only AE.</p><p>I hate casting them on both my dirge and troub.</p><p>I hate when people get mad because you gave someone else UT or BC !!!!! I have actually seen people rage about not getting one or the other. It's complete BS that we are put in that position in the first place. Heaven forbid you should want to buff yourself with UT or BC. It would be a 20 minute argument in most guilds/raids.</p><p>I hate getting 10 different tells during a raid asking for Battle Cry, Upbeat Tempo, Jesters Cap and Gravitas. I macro all of jcap and gravitas thru profit and ACT. So it gets spread around to the correct classes during raids. But honest, it's the thing I hate most about playing my bards. With 6 debuffs on each, rezzing, jcap, gravitas, etc, we have substantially less time to join the fight and focus on dps. </p><p>I suggest making them group only to cut down on the amount of useless clicking we have to do in raids and to at least APPEAR that were not showing favoritism to one player over another. Making them group only also ensures a few raid spots for bards.</p><p>Blue AoE's - EVERY class should be able to defend itself in a multi group encounter. Both bards are long overdue for one or two blue AoE's. Dont give it to one and not the other please.</p></blockquote><p>I think ...the class you're looking for is wizard.</p><p>Don't really care if jcap has immunity/not or whether it's passive. I'll just adjust to how it's used.</p><p>UT and BC goes wherever the top dps thinks it should. /ignore whatever other junk dps say. If you're struggling with favoritism, I suggest you join a new guild.</p><p>If bards can't take the time out of their cast order to jcap/gravitas then why should classes like the mystic even bother to stampede if they're healing?</p><p>All in all, I think what you mentioned doesn't really need to be changed. Really, I just want a more class-defining ability that can affect the success of a group/raid and that hate transfer is as close as it has gotten so far.</p>

[Rocc]

<p><cite>justanotherplaya wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Chanzoon@Unrest_old wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Jesters Cap and Gravitas should be passive group only AE.</p><p>I hate casting them on both my dirge and troub.</p><p>I hate when people get mad because you gave someone else UT or BC !!!!! I have actually seen people rage about not getting one or the other. It's complete BS that we are put in that position in the first place. Heaven forbid you should want to buff yourself with UT or BC. It would be a 20 minute argument in most guilds/raids.</p><p>I hate getting 10 different tells during a raid asking for Battle Cry, Upbeat Tempo, Jesters Cap and Gravitas. I macro all of jcap and gravitas thru profit and ACT. So it gets spread around to the correct classes during raids. But honest, it's the thing I hate most about playing my bards. With 6 debuffs on each, rezzing, jcap, gravitas, etc, we have substantially less time to join the fight and focus on dps. </p><p>I suggest making them group only to cut down on the amount of useless clicking we have to do in raids and to at least APPEAR that were not showing favoritism to one player over another. Making them group only also ensures a few raid spots for bards.</p><p>Blue AoE's - EVERY class should be able to defend itself in a multi group encounter. Both bards are long overdue for one or two blue AoE's. Dont give it to one and not the other please.</p></blockquote><p>I think ...the class you're looking for is wizard.</p><p>Don't really care if jcap has immunity/not or whether it's passive. I'll just adjust to how it's used.</p><p>UT and BC goes wherever the top dps thinks it should. /ignore whatever other junk dps say. If you're struggling with favoritism, I suggest you join a new guild.</p><p>If bards can't take the time out of their cast order to jcap/gravitas then why should classes like the mystic even bother to stampede if they're healing?</p><p>All in all, I think what you mentioned doesn't really need to be changed. Really, I just want a more class-defining ability that can affect the success of a group/raid and that hate transfer is as close as it has gotten so far.</p></blockquote><p>What are you talking about? Have you ever even played a bard? The problems I mention have probably accounted for more threads of anything bard realted than any other bard topic. Oh and thanks for skuuling me on who gets UT/BC. All of us bards in this forum are now better because you posted.</p>

[justanotherplaya]

<p><cite>Chanzoon@Unrest_old wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>justanotherplaya wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Chanzoon@Unrest_old wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Jesters Cap and Gravitas should be passive group only AE.</p><p>I hate casting them on both my dirge and troub.</p><p>I hate when people get mad because you gave someone else UT or BC !!!!! I have actually seen people rage about not getting one or the other. It's complete BS that we are put in that position in the first place. Heaven forbid you should want to buff yourself with UT or BC. It would be a 20 minute argument in most guilds/raids.</p><p>I hate getting 10 different tells during a raid asking for Battle Cry, Upbeat Tempo, Jesters Cap and Gravitas. I macro all of jcap and gravitas thru profit and ACT. So it gets spread around to the correct classes during raids. But honest, it's the thing I hate most about playing my bards. With 6 debuffs on each, rezzing, jcap, gravitas, etc, we have substantially less time to join the fight and focus on dps. </p><p>I suggest making them group only to cut down on the amount of useless clicking we have to do in raids and to at least APPEAR that were not showing favoritism to one player over another. Making them group only also ensures a few raid spots for bards.</p><p>Blue AoE's - EVERY class should be able to defend itself in a multi group encounter. Both bards are long overdue for one or two blue AoE's. Dont give it to one and not the other please.</p></blockquote><p>I think ...the class you're looking for is wizard.</p><p>Don't really care if jcap has immunity/not or whether it's passive. I'll just adjust to how it's used.</p><p>UT and BC goes wherever the top dps thinks it should. /ignore whatever other junk dps say. If you're struggling with favoritism, I suggest you join a new guild.</p><p>If bards can't take the time out of their cast order to jcap/gravitas then why should classes like the mystic even bother to stampede if they're healing?</p><p>All in all, I think what you mentioned doesn't really need to be changed. Really, I just want a more class-defining ability that can affect the success of a group/raid and that hate transfer is as close as it has gotten so far.</p></blockquote><p>What are you talking about? Have you ever even played a bard? The problems I mention have probably accounted for more threads of anything bard realted than any other bard topic. Oh and thanks for skuuling me on who gets UT/BC. All of us bards in this forum are now better because you posted.</p></blockquote><p>Sorry if I offended you. It just didn't seem like UT/BC was really that hard of a decision. You get your raid group and there's maybe 2 options for who gets the buff and the other gets TC. As for jcap/gravitas, I always thought bards were a utility before dps and that's where jcap/gravitas comes in. If they didn't have that we'd just be playing assassins with less dps and more group wide buffs. Iono, it just seemed like based on your complaints you'd rather play a tier 1 dps. I'm not too sure I can understand your complaint about clicking either for troubs. It seems like you're focused on avoiding favoritism, which in my opinion, is easily solved by just asking the highest dps what he/she wants.</p>

[Rocc]

<p><cite>justanotherplaya wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Chanzoon@Unrest_old wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>justanotherplaya wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Chanzoon@Unrest_old wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Jesters Cap and Gravitas should be passive group only AE.</p><p>I hate casting them on both my dirge and troub.</p><p>I hate when people get mad because you gave someone else UT or BC !!!!! I have actually seen people rage about not getting one or the other. It's complete BS that we are put in that position in the first place. Heaven forbid you should want to buff yourself with UT or BC. It would be a 20 minute argument in most guilds/raids.</p><p>I hate getting 10 different tells during a raid asking for Battle Cry, Upbeat Tempo, Jesters Cap and Gravitas. I macro all of jcap and gravitas thru profit and ACT. So it gets spread around to the correct classes during raids. But honest, it's the thing I hate most about playing my bards. With 6 debuffs on each, rezzing, jcap, gravitas, etc, we have substantially less time to join the fight and focus on dps. </p><p>I suggest making them group only to cut down on the amount of useless clicking we have to do in raids and to at least APPEAR that were not showing favoritism to one player over another. Making them group only also ensures a few raid spots for bards.</p><p>Blue AoE's - EVERY class should be able to defend itself in a multi group encounter. Both bards are long overdue for one or two blue AoE's. Dont give it to one and not the other please.</p></blockquote><p>I think ...the class you're looking for is wizard.</p><p>Don't really care if jcap has immunity/not or whether it's passive. I'll just adjust to how it's used.</p><p>UT and BC goes wherever the top dps thinks it should. /ignore whatever other junk dps say. If you're struggling with favoritism, I suggest you join a new guild.</p><p>If bards can't take the time out of their cast order to jcap/gravitas then why should classes like the mystic even bother to stampede if they're healing?</p><p>All in all, I think what you mentioned doesn't really need to be changed. Really, I just want a more class-defining ability that can affect the success of a group/raid and that hate transfer is as close as it has gotten so far.</p></blockquote><p>What are you talking about? Have you ever even played a bard? The problems I mention have probably accounted for more threads of anything bard realted than any other bard topic. Oh and thanks for skuuling me on who gets UT/BC. All of us bards in this forum are now better because you posted.</p></blockquote><p>Sorry if I offended you. It just didn't seem like UT/BC wasn't really that hard of a decision. You get your raid group and there's usually maybe 2 options for who gets the buff. As jcap/gravitas, I always thought bards were a utility before dps and that's where jcap/gravitas comes in. If they didn't have that we'd just be playing assassins with less dps and more group wide buffs. Iono, it just seemed like based on your complaints you'd rather play a tier 1 dps.</p></blockquote><p>We are scouts. We dont just show up to the raid, buff people and go afk. When I play my dirge I am SO busy in raids that I have to prioritize whats more important. I even have to use third party software just to maximize my potential. All I'm saying is that it would be nice to focus on other things and still be just as effective and desired in raids. Anybody who says either bard is not incredibly busy during raids has obviously never raided a bard or played a horrible bard. Gravitas and Jcap along with debuffs can be a full time job all by themselves. Honestly I get to the point where I just pick a couple healers for gravitas and a couple mages for jcap. Seriously, the expectation of casting jcap and gravitas to me is the worst part of playing bard and the reason I would LOVE to see them passive. It's wishful thinking and will never happen.</p>

[justanotherplaya]

<p>I've played both classes in raid. If you're talking about dirge, I think they have plenty to do. Last expac I was parsing top 5 in my guild (which isn't that great considering we had 2-3 good dps that time around 30-40kish in T3 gear) while sonic barrier/beating ppl to res/spot healing/keeping a macro to cure my healer from stun/stifle/gravitas rotation. Yeah I admit it's not easy trying to time your dps with temp buffs while eyeing the raid window and dropping death prevents and heals while parsing well and getting ready to res a group that's near death. I still did it just fine. That's not the problem though.</p><p>This is a troub issue. And if you ask me what I do as a troub, I jcap/deadly dance for my main dps on time warp which is about 20-30 seconds into the fight, rotate the jcap afterwards on 7 targets, occasionally power regen if I see a chanter dead and a group that needs power, VC before my first jcap on myself is up, and parse. If you're telling me that's hard to do, I don't know what to say. It might be hard to do perfectly and maximize the heck out of that VC and the temp buffs that go up - but it's not hard to play decently.  I don't really even have to look at my jcaps, I just hit each one in order and I already know for example that a time warp is coming on jcap 2 and jcap 4. Again, if people want their jcaps, you have timing slots and you make them work with the jcaps that you can put out. Aside from that, it's every 15-20 seconds cast the next jcap. Fire and forget really. You may delay a jcap a bit to meet up with timewarp but I don't see how it's hard? Seriously though, maybe I'm missing something and you could give me some pro tips.</p><p>EDIT: Sorry. Anyways, this is all pretty much off topic. I disagree that making some of the troub buffs into groupwide buffs would make the class more fun to play though.</p>

[Errrorr]

<p><cite>xdeadumx wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>What i have to say might make most troubs angry.</p><p>Give us poisons. we are a scout and should be able to use them. </p><p>As well, keep dirge melee range and make troubs more of ranged dps. Give troubs some pbae short term caster dmg increases. We buff casters, let us stand with them where they can hear our songs. Which imo dirge should keep a slightly higher dps output due to having to rez and being in proximity of frontals and close ranged ae's.</p><p>Everything else is a step in the right direction. Thanks for giving us some lovins.</p><p>Troubum - Antonia-Bayle.</p></blockquote><p>These are horrible changes and make me glad you aren't a troub dev.</p><p>a) Poisons are useless, and have been since around EoF times. Check your predators/rogues dps from them, and you'll see they don't even do 2k.</p><p>b) If I wanted to sit at range, I'd roll a ranger. (Granted I mainchanged to ranger a few weeks back, but still....). Troubs should be meleeing the mob just as much as dirges, and 95% of fights, mages are meleeing the mob or within a 10m range anyway.</p><p>c) Increasing group dps - I think most people in this game would agree that troubs give a lot to a group. That isnt the problem any more. The problem is self dps. You could park a troub on AF on the mage group, and nobody would really complain. The thing that needs changing, is the 'Fun Factor' of troubs.</p><p>Other changes suggested, changing Jcap to group only? Thats a silly change, most mages don't need it any more (apart from 10 CB, not make or break), so you'd just be making it useless.</p><p>More PBAOEs? For all the hundreds of fights with lots of adds in raiding any more?</p><p>As I said in my previous post. These changes are a start, but they aren't going to make people enjoy troubs any more, or want to start playing them again. The Enjoyment factor of a troub is low, and thats what needs fixing.</p>

[Onoddil]

<p>What Errror said (again; stop being reasonable and insightful damnit!).</p><p>The changes on Test minus CSong and Overture are fine. I'd say the Raxxyl's and Jester's Cap changes are unnecessary (drop the agi from Raxxyl's and add 45-60s immunity on JC imo), but neither affects me terribly that I'll lose sleep over it. It'd be better if CSong was 20s duration and 6min base reuse, and Overture was untouched and they just made Painful the blue, but it's not the end of the world.</p><p>However, these are BALANCES. Yes, I can no longer comment on Dirges being vastly better then Troubs due to their OP myth proc because it got changed on Test, but it's still a million times better than what we get (which is basically a 400dps proc). Therefore we'll have to wait until feedback from Test rolls in and we get a sense of how the two classes compare once again. But, imo, Troubs still need some additional things over and above mere balancing.</p><p>My favourite is still adding Spell MA to the STA line, which buffs us (given that auto aside most of our dps is spells) and the mages we're supposed to be buffing. That, combined with adding 25% cb/reuse (or something, similar to the Dirge proc but tailored to Troubs), combined with the current changes and fixing CSong/Overture might well be enough imo. Dirges would no longer be doing a lot more dps without requiring much effort (but good ones will still do well, obviously), and Troubs get a slight buff and add more utility (which is, after all, our main priority).</p><p>Ono</p>

[Hermmit]

<p>When are these changes going to test?</p>

[Errrorr]

<p><cite>Hermmit wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>When are these changes going to test?</p></blockquote><p>2014 Most likely.</p>

[Brienae]

<p>In theory these changes sound great, but I'd prefer to test them before giving my opinions.  What works in theory could be terrible in reality.  On the other hand it could be as good or better than it sounds.  I just don't know. </p><p>Still looking forward to testing them.</p>

[xdeadumx]

<p><cite>Errror wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>xdeadumx wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>What i have to say might make most troubs angry.</p><p>Give us poisons. we are a scout and should be able to use them. </p><p>As well, keep dirge melee range and make troubs more of ranged dps. Give troubs some pbae short term caster dmg increases. We buff casters, let us stand with them where they can hear our songs. Which imo dirge should keep a slightly higher dps output due to having to rez and being in proximity of frontals and close ranged ae's.</p><p>Everything else is a step in the right direction. Thanks for giving us some lovins.</p><p>Troubum - Antonia-Bayle.</p></blockquote><p>These are horrible changes and make me glad you aren't a troub dev.</p><p>a) Poisons are useless, and have been since around EoF times. Check your predators/rogues dps from them, and you'll see they don't even do 2k.</p><p>b) If I wanted to sit at range, I'd roll a ranger. (Granted I mainchanged to ranger a few weeks back, but still....). Troubs should be meleeing the mob just as much as dirges, and 95% of fights, mages are meleeing the mob or within a 10m range anyway.</p><p>c) Increasing group dps - I think most people in this game would agree that troubs give a lot to a group. That isnt the problem any more. The problem is self dps. You could park a troub on AF on the mage group, and nobody would really complain. The thing that needs changing, is the 'Fun Factor' of troubs.</p><p>Other changes suggested, changing Jcap to group only? Thats a silly change, most mages don't need it any more (apart from 10 CB, not make or break), so you'd just be making it useless.</p><p>More PBAOEs? For all the hundreds of fights with lots of adds in raiding any more?</p><p>As I said in my previous post. These changes are a start, but they aren't going to make people enjoy troubs any more, or want to start playing them again. The Enjoyment factor of a troub is low, and thats what needs fixing.</p></blockquote><p>If i was in a high end raiding guild i might agree.. however just the AA poison we get in class tree is 2% of my parse when im parsing 55k. I feel like poisions would add another 3% to my parse, since they are still adding 1-2% to the sins in my guild parsing 100-120k.</p><p>As well, being in a non high end raiding guild, the casters still stand at max range on most fights with their 150cm.</p><p>This game isn't designed strictly for high end raiding guilds. Which is shown by all the adjustments to herioc content.</p><p>Again... lets change it to non hard mode raiding guild... none of the casters i have grouped with or raided with are at cap. so jcap for group would be a nice benefit. I would suggest adding 5-10% spell double attack to it.</p><p>Now.. sounds like what you are looking for is a assissinate type ability that makes you feel good inside and to brag about. OH SNAP! i just hit with my super sonic blast note for 850k... WOOT!</p><p>I just went back to troub a couple months ago, for the guild, from being a dirge for over a year. I have found myself lacking without the constant chaos of a dirge in a progression raid force. Jcap rotation is hardly a distraction from dps abilities. So to be honest having more shortterm clickies to rotate/keep track of that increase group dps would be nice.</p><p>If you want to self dps... roll a sin. Ya, you like it... It's ok.. beastlords will wtfpwn you anyways.</p>

[justanotherplaya]

<p><cite>xdeadumx wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>If i was in a high end raiding guild i might agree.. however just the AA poison we get in class tree is 2% of my parse when im parsing 55k. I feel like poisions would add another 3% to my parse, since they are still adding 1-2% to the sins in my guild parsing 100-120k.</p><p>As well, being in a non high end raiding guild, the casters still stand at max range on most fights with their 150cm.</p><p>This game isn't designed strictly for high end raiding guilds. Which is shown by all the adjustments to herioc content.</p><p>Again... lets change it to non hard mode raiding guild... none of the casters i have grouped with or raided with are at cap. so jcap for group would be a nice benefit. I would suggest adding 5-10% spell double attack to it.</p><p>Now.. sounds like what you are looking for is a assissinate type ability that makes you feel good inside and to brag about. OH SNAP! i just hit with my super sonic blast note for 850k... WOOT!</p><p>I just went back to troub a couple months ago, for the guild, from being a dirge for over a year. I have found myself lacking without the constant chaos of a dirge in a progression raid force. Jcap rotation is hardly a distraction from dps abilities. So to be honest having more shortterm clickies to rotate/keep track of that increase group dps would be nice.</p><p>If you want to self dps... roll a sin. Ya, you like it... It's ok.. beastlords will wtfpwn you anyways.</p></blockquote><p>Well I think poisons are ok but pretty unnecessary and I'm not sure I'd really notice if I had them or not.</p><p>Casters do stand at range but I think part of being the scout class is you have to learn to joust well and time aoe blocks.</p><p>Also about the reuse of casters, my raid is geared out in EZmode gear with 2 HM armor pieces and pretty much every caster is capped on casting speed and reuse. All they really want out of Jcap is the 10% crit bonus. The reuse really just helps me and the assassin/scout that I use it on. I expect with the current stat inflation, people are going to be capped out on reuse from just legendaries next expac anyways. This has been mentioned previously but having Jcap not be a group wide buff allows us to be put into a mage group while buffing the assassin in the tank group. <-This is huge and why Jcap shouldn't be changed.</p><p>I pretty much agree that playing a dirge is a huge difference from troub in raid. I basically fall asleep on progression fights because my raid won't let me risk going in and I have nothing to do since I'm sitting at max range auto attacking with my bow. Debuff. Jcap. Range autoattack.</p><p>This idea might be completely stupid but I just wanted to put this idea out there anyways. Maybe we can get a toggle ability added to our myth buff that makes our HO into a solo HO and changes the attributes/way it works. Make it able to perform different abilities by pressing CA/Spells in a certain order (something like CA/Spell/CA or CA/CA/Spell or Spell/Spell/CA). And then add several buffs that would last a minute and limit it to only having 1 buff at a time so you can't stack them all. This would make it so every minute we're inclined to HO and put up the right buff or override our current buff with something new to adapt to the situation. Ideally, the buffs would be group wide and have some useful effects: a massive arcane/elemental ward, group potency/crit bonus, 1 time proc group aoe block (this might be broken), group power proc. In the case of the ward/aoe block, you'd want to HO more often in order to keep the buff refreshed where as the group potency and power proc could be used ideally in other situations. This would definitely make things a little more interesting for us but I do realize it'd probably take a lot more programming anyways. Further benefits is if it does work out it'd be easier to implement new content that would be interesting and fun to play with for bards.</p><p>On the side note, the other thing I've been wondering is what happened to itemization for bards? Instruments/drum of the ethernaut sort of things and collecting all the different effects to maximize your buffs. Man if they could bring that back and give unique weapons for bards like they do for bruiser/monks it would be so cool. I for one would not be complaining if these sort of things dropped off our current raid content. <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

[tfetterman]

<p>Yeah, Shard of Hate type itemization for Bards would be awesome!</p>

[Rocksthemic]

<p>Ok just read a lot of these...first off why you trollin buffrat? :p You know you play a troub very occasionally and you have a good understanding of the maths behind it, the actual experience is much different playing one constantly.</p><p><cite>Buffrat@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I play both a dirge and troub. My point to Raxxyl's/Dance of Blades is because troubs have always had a higher agi self buff because of the lack of AGI on their group buff. Now that they're getting AGI on their group buff there's no reason their self buff shouldn't match dirges /shrug</p><p>Also, I would be for giving troubs +15% doublecast chance on their tso endline. Maybe even 20%. Adding any buffs to spell auto attack is dumb because the dps is so terrible, it wouldn't be noticed anyway.</p><p>I think Jcap immunity should be 1 minute instead of 2 minutes/nothing.</p></blockquote><p>You ended well, but I doubt the extra agi is going to make that huge of a difference even with stats the way they are now.</p><p><cite>Buffrat@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Dirges buff themselves, yes. Troubs buff their group infinitely more than dirges do, imo.</p><p>You guys spend too much time directly comparing troub personal dps vs dirge personal dps. In short these changes will make troubs a lot better than dirges for raids, but I know you guys won't complain. You obviously couldn't handle being pretty balanced to dirges (boo hoo you did 40-50k less dps than dirges but made up for it by buffing other people with more than 40-50k worth of buffs), and need to be the best at personal dps, best at buffing, and best at debuffing.</p></blockquote><p>I wouldn't say this. Consider how group make ups are? You as a dirge are pretty much going to be gauranteed the same number of classes that directly benefit from your dps and melee increasing buffs (that number being 3). Generally the same as a troub in a mage group. The 10% potency difference between a mage spell and a melee CA is a gap, but I wouldn't call it an overpowered gap. At the very least it's not a gap that benefits the troub in any way. In addition your buff helps yourself (yes I'm counting dirges among the 3 in this group) In addition, you generally have a coercer and sometimes a shaman in there. I know they can't change classes based on min/max of a high end guild, but troubadors aren't getting dps mods and the disparity is quite telling. How are we the best at debuffing compared to dirges? Do we get some awesome buff that dirges don't get I should be using more? If you're counting our magic resist debuff, I wouldn't count that as putting us over the top in utility.</p><p>Sorry I'm not trying to call you out specifically,  just have to disagree on some of your points</p><p>As others have suggested, make lamentations a blue AE, and change the dirge equivalent to a blue AE (or put a damage component on their equivalent of bellow, which is already a blue) This proposed change to overture will just decrease our single target dps, which is most of this expansion. Unless you had a LOT more AE encounters it's not going to be a welcome change.</p><p>The Jcap issue has been discussed. A shortened immunity? Sure. Lack of immunity? not so much.</p><p>Countersong I've used plenty either to counter initial AE's before mob is debuffed, or for those moments when the named wipes and is standing by the raid casting it's AE. If you're going to shorten the duration, shorten the recast by a fair amount or it will be never be used as anything but the most extreme emergency situations.</p><p>The vexing verses change is pretty awesome imo. Some of the named take almost 2 full seconds to cast their AE and a 30% increase in that will be very helpful for that little bit of extra time to joust out (and please if you give us this don't EVER change it to *unless target is epic* because that will just be a big FU to us all)</p><p>Breathtaking bellow: Not sure about the point of this change. Literally on raids the only reason I have to cast this spell is to complete HO's or proc PoTM. Unless you're going to create a lot more encounters where there are "heroic" (IE affected by stun, etc) mobs among the summoned adds or something, this one is going to be pointless for anywhere but PvP.</p><p>Pretty much all the other changes look promising. I don't pretend to have all the answers. I just know when I'm doing HM kolskeggr, burning all out from the start with temp adorns on and etc. using incinerate with my RO and my VC is hitting for 140k, and I STILL lose to a mystic? Something really needs to change.</p><p>*note* I am not in absolute min/max gear atm. I have a lot of crit mit adorns on for HM drunder zones and don't have switch out peices of gear, really. So potentially I could be doing a *bit* more dps. Probably an extra 30-40 MA I'm missing out on from that. Also I'm specced for DD, so yes I know I could have more personal dps.</p><p>I do wish to thank the dev team for giving troubadors a look. We've needed it for quite some time. I have led raids and recruited for guilds since this game was released until the end of TSO, and the very reason I MADE a troubador is because they were an asbsolute nightmare to recruit and retain. Anyone who started as a troub and then raided generally didn't last for long, and quite often I had to have guildies make one specifically for the guild. There needs to be some change that makes troubs at least competetive with dirges on the parse (or at least not losing to healers)</p><p>Our current utility is fine imo. Every raid guild out there knows they need a troubador, it's just a matter of finding someone who wants to play one and won't get frustrated with being the bottom rung scout.</p>

[nofish]

<p><cite>Onoddil wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Tbh, keep changes that are currently on test but: add spell ma to the two items in the STA line as well as melee ma; increase csong duration to 20s and base to 5-7 mins; add potency to potm; add slight combat skills to daeli's and slight casting skills to death's door; add something similar to the new dirge myth proc such as cb/reuse to our myth proc; return overture to its original state and make painful the blue with the increase in damage (mitigated on test, obviously); remove extra agi from raxxyl's and give JC *some* immunity because that's a bit silly imo :p. Either that, or keep the dirge myth proc as it is because nerfing is worse than buffing/fixing, and add max spell damage to ours in a similar vein. Just do the same for each of the two subclasses and it's fine...</p><p>EDIT: @Buffrat, if you notice my well thought out post only contains one thing that I'd like to see to buff personal dps... A new myth proc. Our one does 400dps. Everything else is just extra utility that accidentally buffs us (see potency on potm). I even suggested removing something that does not fit with the "theme" of Troubadours. Please don't /rage.</p><p> Ono</p></blockquote><p>Ty SOE for working on troubs, me thinks ono suggestions is on the spot , Thats the way to go</p>

[nofish]

<p><cite>xdeadumx wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>What i have to say might make most troubs angry.</p><p>Give us poisons. we are a scout and should be able to use them. </p><p>As well, keep dirge melee range and make troubs more of ranged dps. Give troubs some pbae short term caster dmg increases. We buff casters, let us stand with them where they can hear our songs. Which imo dirge should keep a slightly higher dps output due to having to rez and being in proximity of frontals and close ranged ae's.</p><p>Everything else is a step in the right direction. Thanks for giving us some lovins.</p><p>Troubum - Antonia-Bayle.</p></blockquote><p>plz roll yourself a ranger,</p>

[justanotherplaya]

<p>Just wanted to put this out there since I wasn't sure why people were preferring keeping some sort of immunity on Jcap.</p><p>Fundamentally Jcap kind of changes but it's still pretty much hit Jcap every 15 seconds on target X. I think having no immunity on Jcap was meant as an indirect buff to Troub DPS as we can now maintain it on ourselves as well as 2 other targets. Some bonus extra stats along with pretty much permanent 50% reuse on a scout class is especially helpful to troub personal and group dps. More PoTM, more deadly dance, more turnstrike, and if you really wanted to, max out the RO duration AA and you have more CC immunity to use when VC isn't up. This will also mitigate the problem people have with TO being a significant source of DPS when you can be casting stuff like perfect shrill more often and allow us to prioritize more DPS oriented stats over reuse (our heroic AA tree for example would change significantly). All in all, I don't consider the immunity a nuisance, but without it, troubs are getting significant buffs. I'm down for zero immunity unless there's some other particular reason I'm missing.</p><p>Oh yeah, and still hoping for a class-defining mechanic that will make playing utility more than just hitting Jcap, PoTM, Deadly Dance, VC, and just....generally staying alive. Who knows, maybe the dev's will come up with something super cool to revitalize the bards. <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

[rvt]

<p>already some changes are opperational and troubs benefit more from them than dirges:</p><p>for every 14-15 haste between 200-300, you get 1 flurry</p><p>for every 30 haste between 300-400, you get 1 flurry.</p><p>So basically, with illu, troub respec and inq in mage group, you get over 400 haste (i have 420ish in raid), which is around 11-12 more flurry; add CoB to that and you get the picture. It shows on parse nicely, dps gap between dirges and troubs dropped to 10% now.</p><p>I just fear that within the process of boosting troubs, the dirges will be left behind, creating another gap between similar classes...</p>

[justanotherplaya]

<p>Yeah. To be honest I really don't like the nerf to dirges. I was pretty sure sony wouldn't do it considering a lot of the troub threads I read specifically detailed that they did not want the dirge to be nerfed or changed in any way and only for the troub to be altered. At this point, I think it'd be better if dirges kept their mythical - it kept alot of players happy and was a unique mechanic that pretty much defined the dirge. Pretty much win-win for sony and this whole change doesn't really make any sense to me. I don't care if a mythical is overpowered/underpowered, if it's unique I think most people would be satisfied. Why change something that was perfectly fine into a dull increase in stats? While the troub myth is actually pretty good aside from the proc, it's the fact that the proc has become so bland and uninteresting that it annoys me and possibly some of the other troubs out there. I almost think this isn't really about balancing but rather to just fix some things that were meant to be fixed when stat inflation occured. As long as the proc is somewhat unique or interesting, I really don't care what it is.</p><p>If troubs do outparse dirges come this update, I don't think I'd be happy that there's a new dead class that people don't want to play. I'm perfectly fine with adding more to group dps rather than personal dps as a troub and I've accepted that as our role. The test update sort of missed the point for me and I wasn't looking for a scaling in dps but rather a more involved utility role.</p>

[Lemilla]

<p><cite>justanotherplaya wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Just wanted to put this out there since I wasn't sure why people were preferring keeping some sort of immunity on Jcap.</p><p>...All in all, I don't consider the immunity a nuisance, but without it, troubs are getting significant buffs. I'm down for zero immunity unless there's some other particular reason I'm missing.</p></blockquote><p>Although this might not be the only reason, it's an important one. With the current imunity, you can make a single macro with all your Jcap targets in it. If you press that macro, it will then cast Jcap on the first person in that list without imunity (or the last person if you queue the macro).</p><p>Without imunity, all troubs will have to go back to a single macro for each target, or even going back to having to actually target whoever you want to cast it on. This is anoying to do, and also forces us to remember who our next target is. So please keep some imunity (at least 30 seconds) on it.</p>

[Leucippus]

<p>Are these changes on the Test Copy server?</p><p>I am not seeing them at the moment.</p><p>-Leucippus</p>

[Brienae]

<p><cite>Lemilla@Permafrost wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>justanotherplaya wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Just wanted to put this out there since I wasn't sure why people were preferring keeping some sort of immunity on Jcap.</p><p>...All in all, I don't consider the immunity a nuisance, but without it, troubs are getting significant buffs. I'm down for zero immunity unless there's some other particular reason I'm missing.</p></blockquote><p>Although this might not be the only reason, it's an important one. With the current imunity, you can make a single macro with all your Jcap targets in it. If you press that macro, it will then cast Jcap on the first person in that list without imunity (or the last person if you queue the macro).</p><p>Without imunity, all troubs will have to go back to a single macro for each target, or even going back to having to actually target whoever you want to cast it on. This is anoying to do, and also forces us to remember who our next target is. So please keep some imunity (at least 30 seconds) on it.</p></blockquote><p>I use profit.  I was able to edit my quick raid buttons to send a tell to the person to tell them they have j-cap.  To me whether there is immunity or not doesn' matter.  I only give J-Cap to myself just before I run RO, but with no immunity I'm sure my mages will love that.  I also think that if they remove the immunity from J-cap they should also remove the immunity from Gravitas.</p>

[Leucippus]

<p>Comments on current changes...</p><p>Looks like I will be putting Countersong back on my hotbar. I perceive it would be useful for preventing a wipe due to an AoE when the mob is almost dead.</p><p>The change to the base recast of Thunderous Overture (increased to 10 seconds from 5 seconds) will change timing somewhat. However, Sandra's Deafening Strike being made more useful should offset that Thunderous Overture change.</p><p>The cast time on Painful Lamentations will still be painful.</p><p>I like no immunity timer on Jester's Cap. It looks like with a little more gear I could keep it on two people constantly (barely).</p><p>Suggests for other changes...</p><p>Enhance: Arcane Symphony and Enhance: Elemental Concerto and Ballad of Warding are now a bit dated with the latest game mechanics. Add 1% or 2% crit mit per point for Arcane Symphony and Enhance: Elemental Concerto (should affect only the associated damage type) and add 1% crit mit per point for Ballad of Warding. This change could make Elemental Concerto and Arcane Symphony more desirable in some circumstances, without unbalancing pre end-game play. Add a similar effect to the dirge's noxious resist song.</p><p> I am tempted to suggest Enhance: Bria's Inspiring Ballad needs a boost, but I am not so sure. Maybe double check that AA (and associated song) are still where they should be with the latest game mechanics.</p><p>The duration on the charm spell, Bria's Entrancing Sonnet, is so short that that spell is only useful as a type of "death save" that usually kills the caster when it expires, due to the caster getting aggro and being one-shotted. At least let this spell work on epic mobs or something, the duration is so short...</p><p>Combine the two hits from Ceremonial Blade into a single hit, or increase the damage of the second hit to compensate for when the first hit misses. Another possiblity is letting this attack hit up to, say, 8 times, but let the miss chance increase with each successive hit; keep once one attack misses, all the rest of the attacks miss.</p><p>Singing Shot is similar to Ceremonial Blade, but the stifle attached to it sort of makes up for the double hit requirement. Since the stifle does not affect epic targets, maybe let it interrupt an epic target, instead of the stifle.</p><p>-Leucippus</p>

[xdeadumx]

<p><cite>nofish wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>xdeadumx wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>What i have to say might make most troubs angry.</p><p>Give us poisons. we are a scout and should be able to use them. </p><p>As well, keep dirge melee range and make troubs more of ranged dps. Give troubs some pbae short term caster dmg increases. We buff casters, let us stand with them where they can hear our songs. Which imo dirge should keep a slightly higher dps output due to having to rez and being in proximity of frontals and close ranged ae's.</p><p>Everything else is a step in the right direction. Thanks for giving us some lovins.</p><p>Troubum - Antonia-Bayle.</p></blockquote><p>plz roll yourself a ranger,</p></blockquote><p>plz post some suggestions on making troub more fun so that im not getting tells from your guilds begging me to join your raid force due to the lack of troubs playing. </p><p>Seriously, what would make us more fun is to have more to do. Just making minor adjustments to what a few spells do isn't enough to warrent dirges exiling back to troub or people to make troubs. When you do a who all dirge on my server you get 52 results... who all troub.. 17.  is this always accurate, no.  </p><p>The simple fact is that troubs have excessive amounts of time on their hands.  I would suggest that we have to perform certain skills in a chain to give group bonuses. But alas you guys just want more dps.</p>

[Hikkymouse]

<p><cite>xdeadumx wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>nofish wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>xdeadumx wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>What i have to say might make most troubs angry.</p><p>Give us poisons. we are a scout and should be able to use them. </p><p>As well, keep dirge melee range and make troubs more of ranged dps. Give troubs some pbae short term caster dmg increases. We buff casters, let us stand with them where they can hear our songs. Which imo dirge should keep a slightly higher dps output due to having to rez and being in proximity of frontals and close ranged ae's.</p><p>Everything else is a step in the right direction. Thanks for giving us some lovins.</p><p>Troubum - Antonia-Bayle.</p></blockquote><p>plz roll yourself a ranger,</p></blockquote><p>plz post some suggestions on making troub more fun so that im not getting tells from your guilds begging me to join your raid force due to the lack of troubs playing. </p><p>Seriously, what would make us more fun is to have more to do. Just making minor adjustments to what a few spells do isn't enough to warrent dirges exiling back to troub or people to make troubs. When you do a who all dirge on my server you get 52 results... who all troub.. 17.  is this always accurate, no.  </p><p>The simple fact is that troubs have excessive amounts of time on their hands.  I would suggest that we have to perform certain skills in a chain to give group bonuses. But alas you guys just want more dps.</p></blockquote><p>Don't think "change to range class" make a big difference.Only 2-3 weeks after update (trying something new is fun), Then someone will say "give us more fun, wanna go melee attack".AoE hurts you? learn and joust it. Not all fight does require ranged attack.Lazy to joust? eek...roll a ranger like previous post. Not only troubador needs to joust AoE.Wanna see Ayonic Bow instead of Anyonic Axe? I don't want...</p><p>I don't/can't know what is good to exiling back (never betrayed to dirge <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/97ada74b88049a6d50a6ed40898a03d7.gif" border="0" />).</p><p>However some troubs betrayed to dirge to have more DPS and overpowered Myth, so adjust troubador DPS isn't completely wrong.Dirge is still more desirable even after this fix. because their group/single buff doesn't be touched.</p><p>At least, "minor adjustments" is enough to enjoy more to play troubador for me.Finally we get PBAoE, Vexing Verses is not useless, Sandra's Deafening Strike give some power, etc.Hope can have more unique abitilies/Effect what can't substitute by adornment or other class abilities./gaze Ayonic Hymn</p>

[luinnil]

<p>I'm excited to see the majority of these changes even though I swapped mains from Troub to Inq a while back.  Very encouraged to see all of them and some work on the class.</p><p>My only comment about the actual changes so far (since most are pointless until there's a chance for me to use them), especially given your clarification that Countersong won't do anything if you cast it after the cast bar shows up, is I fear that Countersong is still too short a duration for its reuse timer.  Mob AoE timers are frequently off by at 5-10 seconds so at best you can guess.</p><p>I'm surprised people use Thunderous Overture so often, I try to avoid it because it takes longer to cast for mediocre damage and never seems to show up very high on the parse, so I was actually happy it was the one that changed to a blue.</p>

[Brienae]

<p>Ok having just tested the changes I can honestly say: I like.  The mind tap mana feed doesn't do much but it does some for the group.  Unfortunatley my testing was done in a duo so not really sure how well Abhorrent verse works.  In general this is a much needed improvement and it was dfinitly fun.  When will this be live?</p>

[Rocksthemic]

<p><cite>Brienae@Lucan DLere wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Lemilla@Permafrost wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>justanotherplaya wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Just wanted to put this out there since I wasn't sure why people were preferring keeping some sort of immunity on Jcap.</p><p>...All in all, I don't consider the immunity a nuisance, but without it, troubs are getting significant buffs. I'm down for zero immunity unless there's some other particular reason I'm missing.</p></blockquote><p>Although this might not be the only reason, it's an important one. With the current imunity, you can make a single macro with all your Jcap targets in it. If you press that macro, it will then cast Jcap on the first person in that list without imunity (or the last person if you queue the macro).</p><p>Without imunity, all troubs will have to go back to a single macro for each target, or even going back to having to actually target whoever you want to cast it on. This is anoying to do, and also forces us to remember who our next target is. So please keep some imunity (at least 30 seconds) on it.</p></blockquote><p>I use profit.  I was able to edit my quick raid buttons to send a tell to the person to tell them they have j-cap.  To me whether there is immunity or not doesn' matter.  I only give J-Cap to myself just before I run RO, but with no immunity I'm sure my mages will love that.  I also think that if they remove the immunity from J-cap they should also remove the immunity from Gravitas.</p></blockquote><p>I think you're not quite getting what it is.. I can make a macro with default that tells a person when they have Jcap. That isn't the issue. The issue is do you want to have 1 button where you can have a standard Jcap rotation? (IE all the dps you generally put Jcap on) or do you want to have 4 or 5 buttons along with people complaining that you never give Jcap to them and only to a select few classes/people?</p><p>If you're only casting Jcap on yourself in it's current incarnation you're doing it wrong. You're vasty under-using one of your most powerful spells and reducing your raid and group dps as a whole. Jcap is not a spell to be cast every once in a while. It should be cast on someone EVERY single time it's up</p><p>The change to the base recast of Thunderous Overture (increased to 10 seconds from 5 seconds) will change timing somewhat. However, Sandra's Deafening Strike being made more useful should offset that Thunderous Overture change.</p><p>The cast time on Painful Lamentations will still be painful.</p><p>I like no immunity timer on Jester's Cap. It looks like with a little more gear I could keep it on two people constantly (barely)</p><p>I think the complaint about changes to thunderous was from raiders mostly. There are many mobs where you are standing still a lot (like guy who drops cloak in throne) or where you're just staying out ranged all the time (like hard mode sullon's trash, where you have 4 mobs each casting AE's that can kill you, so there is no jousting in and out unless you're AE immune when you do) in cases such as these, and with ranged single target dps in general, an improvement to a melee quick strike is not going to come even CLOSE to making up for the loss of this important ranged dps spell. And Thunderous is very important for these ranged fights considering you have thunderous, shrill, lamentations, and then your bow attack (also of course evasive maneuvers) but thunderous is on the quickest recast, and is also a very handy range finder as 15 meters is pretty standard range for being able to survive AE's.</p><p>Still think lamentations should be the blue.</p>

[Brienae]

<p><cite>Rocksthemic wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Brienae@Lucan DLere wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Lemilla@Permafrost wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>justanotherplaya wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Just wanted to put this out there since I wasn't sure why people were preferring keeping some sort of immunity on Jcap.</p><p>...All in all, I don't consider the immunity a nuisance, but without it, troubs are getting significant buffs. I'm down for zero immunity unless there's some other particular reason I'm missing.</p></blockquote><p>Although this might not be the only reason, it's an important one. With the current imunity, you can make a single macro with all your Jcap targets in it. If you press that macro, it will then cast Jcap on the first person in that list without imunity (or the last person if you queue the macro).</p><p>Without imunity, all troubs will have to go back to a single macro for each target, or even going back to having to actually target whoever you want to cast it on. This is anoying to do, and also forces us to remember who our next target is. So please keep some imunity (at least 30 seconds) on it.</p></blockquote><p>I use profit.  I was able to edit my quick raid buttons to send a tell to the person to tell them they have j-cap.  To me whether there is immunity or not doesn' matter.  I only give J-Cap to myself just before I run RO, but with no immunity I'm sure my mages will love that.  I also think that if they remove the immunity from J-cap they should also remove the immunity from Gravitas.</p></blockquote><p>I think you're not quite getting what it is.. I can make a macro with default that tells a person when they have Jcap. That isn't the issue. The issue is do you want to have 1 button where you can have a standard Jcap rotation? (IE all the dps you generally put Jcap on) or do you want to have 4 or 5 buttons along with people complaining that you never give Jcap to them and only to a select few classes/people?</p><p>If you're only casting Jcap on yourself in it's current incarnation you're doing it wrong. You're vasty under-using one of your most powerful spells and reducing your raid and group dps as a whole. Jcap is not a spell to be cast every once in a while. It should be cast on someone EVERY single time it's up</p><p>The change to the base recast of Thunderous Overture (increased to 10 seconds from 5 seconds) will change timing somewhat. However, Sandra's Deafening Strike being made more useful should offset that Thunderous Overture change.</p><p>The cast time on Painful Lamentations will still be painful.</p><p>I like no immunity timer on Jester's Cap. It looks like with a little more gear I could keep it on two people constantly (barely)</p><p>I think the complaint about changes to thunderous was from raiders mostly. There are many mobs where you are standing still a lot (like guy who drops cloak in throne) or where you're just staying out ranged all the time (like hard mode sullon's trash, where you have 4 mobs each casting AE's that can kill you, so there is no jousting in and out unless you're AE immune when you do) in cases such as these, and with ranged single target dps in general, an improvement to a melee quick strike is not going to come even CLOSE to making up for the loss of this important ranged dps spell. And Thunderous is very important for these ranged fights considering you have thunderous, shrill, lamentations, and then your bow attack (also of course evasive maneuvers) but thunderous is on the quickest recast, and is also a very handy range finder as 15 meters is pretty standard range for being able to survive AE's.</p><p>Still think lamentations should be the blue.</p></blockquote><p>Yeah I admit I worded that wrong... what I meant was when I'm running RO that is the only time I cast it on myself, all other times it is on at least one of the other members of my group. Two if I'm able stay to stay on top of it.  I actually find trying to keep the rotation without breaking it fun.  With no immunity I can keep it on the mages and possibly cast it on the healers when fit hits the shan.</p>

[Rocksthemic]

<p>Yeah I actually have a few buttons for jesters cap on my hotbars. I have one button with all the guild dps on it, with the brigand first cause more dispatch = more awesome. Then a list of dps going from highest to lowest dps (make your dps fight to be on the top spot on your Jcap macro and see if they don't improve!) basically you have Jcap in a slot, right click the make macro, and fill it up with spell/ability of jesters cap, then put each dps name in there, and easy as that you have one button macro that will rotate through all of your best dps with one button, and don't even have to change targets.</p><p>*yes I'm aware many of you know how to do this already, but never know so just explaining it*</p><p>Also have two buttons dedicated to the MT healers, one for cleric one for shaman. I have one that is just to target myself, so I don't ever have to change targets to keep myself with Jcap. And I have one that is /usabilityonrt macro (pretty sure that's how it goes, not in game atm to check) that will jesters cap the last person who sent me a tell so I can just hit that if someone sends tell asking for Jcap.</p><p>And then finally I have one that is just a regular Jcap button, that will give Jcap to my current target and send them a tell letting them know they have it.</p><p>So that is 6 total buttons for Jcap, but barring the exception of a couple tanks and healers outside of MT group, it will pretty much cover anyone in raid. Makes it handy. The real beef is that if you take away immunity completely, we'll either be forced to have 10 Jcap macro buttons, each dedicated to a single target.</p>

[latesttoon]

<p>make troub Charm  useful.. e.g. last until cancelled.</p><p>Simple.</p>

[Rocksthemic]

<p><cite>latesttoon wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>make troub Charm  useful.. e.g. last until cancelled.</p><p>Simple.</p></blockquote><p>That is one of the changes that might be useful for PvP and to solo better I guess, but for most content it would be pretty much useless. It in no way would solve the disparity between troubadors and dirges in respect to dps and what they bring to a group. Coercers can charm quite well, but it hasn't been since TSO that I've actually heard "lets get a coercer for this group so they can charm something"</p>

[Hikkymouse]

<p><cite>Xelgad wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><ul><li>Thunderous Overture is now a PBAoE that affects up to 8 targets.  <strong>The reuse has been increased to 10 seconds.</strong></li></ul></blockquote> <p>Played several hours on test, and got issues about reuse/range.Thunderous Overture is shortest single damage spell for troubador.And used very often for single target.In some situations, Won't be able to use like now. 5 seconds make a big difference...Maybe this is why adjusted Perfect Shrill/Lamentations damage. But not enough to compensate.(Tap Essence is changed to Encounter Spell and reuced damage too)</p><p>So I would like to have both, single damage version and PBAoE version.Not change to PBAoE, just add PBAoE version.</p> <p>Or replace Enhance: Thunderous Overture with PBAoE version as an alternative.(Ofcourse, should have +10% damage and adjusted casting time without AA)Those are sharing reuse timer. but single damage ver has 5sec recast, PBAoE ver has 10sec recast.</p> <p>Or add new PBAoE spell line(maybe most realistic).I oppose to change Lamentations to PBAoE.</p>

[tfetterman]

<p>After a generous amount of training dummies, I'm beginning to see that the changes really haven't done anything to increase damage on single target mobs.  If anything it has dropped somewhat.  I think the biggest effect was the significant drop in the Tap Essence damage.  Leave the damage alone or at least leave it as a single target spell but distribute power to the group.  I maxed out the AA's from the SF tree to see if it would help on the damage but it was hardly a noticable increase.</p><p>Further, I'm really having a hard time being able to measure the true increase on mutiple mob encounters since they only have heroic group dummies.  There needs to be significantly increased health on the multiple encounter in order to get a true feeling for what can be done.  Can you add maybe a X2 group encounter to the selection of training dummies?</p><p>Two things would significantly help as well.  First, change the WIS redcution on Chaos Anthem to STA, STR, or AGI.  I didn't include INT since there is an AA option to include that attriube.  Most mobs are not healers and since secondary attributes have been eliminated this aspect of the spell has become quite worthless.  Second, can you reduce the casting speed on Painful Lamentations.  Yes, you increased the damage, but a 1.25 second minimum casting speed really interferes with melee timing and messes up the rotation.  I think making it around .75 seconds would be more appropriate.</p><p>Finally, can you convert the mythical proc to something more useful.  Now that we have been changed to become more "magelike", I would not be opposed to Spell Double Cast any longer.  Especially since the Dirge proc has been nerfed significantly.  My other choices would be Crit Bonus or Potency.  Maybe even a clicky changing spells from single attack to multi attack and back, similar to the Warlock myth.</p><p>I just know I was very excited about these changes, but the more I test them, the more I find out they aren't really going to give us the damage we were looking for.  They are pulling away from single mobs and adding to multi-encounter mobs.  It's more of a trade-off than any kind of boost.</p>

[DJWolf5]

<p>First of all, anything that won't get used in a raid, I don't care about.  Minimise it, maximise it, lose it or give it to some other class, I don't care.</p><p>Secondly, I'm not looking to become an assassin, a ranger or a swashy because unlike them I am not DPS, I am a support class or at least that is the theory.  I want to parse as well as a dirge and I fail to see the problem there.  In addition, the changes that have occurred have gradually devalued the troub and not just our own personal DPS.</p><p>There seems to be discussion about Jester's Cap and its immunity.  Great!  But lets put some thought into making it something that people want.</p><p>Countersong... 12 seconds... really?  And the re-use timer remains to keep this spell amongst the other "gimicks" that actually change nothing for my performance or for the raid.  It can sit next to Energising Ballad that is great but no one relies on you for it.</p><p>All in all, nothing here is thrilling.  For example, Rejuvenating Celebration will get an upgrade... great.  I have 5 concentration slots and so it still won't get a look in.  As for doing encounter or AOE damage, any change in this direction has limited appeal.  It just means that an ability I once used now gets counted amongst the things I cannot do when the raid leader says "No encounter or AOEs please".  And, in other circumstances without accompanying hate pushing, it will just get me killed.  That's not an upgrade so while changing Tap Essence to trickle a tiny bit of mana to the group is great but making it an encounter spell is not and diminishing its damage when it is hardly note-worthy now sets this as a downgrade.</p><p>The are two real problem for troubs.  I don't know if anyone has noticed but mages are no longer the kings of DPS they used to be.  Wizards were once guaranteed to top the parse but now they are strugling against assassins and swashies.  In part, this is due to the fact that much of what caster support offers is now irrelevant.  The wizards don't want UT anymore and the warlock, when we have one, says "I'll take it".  When our raid forms, the main tank fills his group with an assassin to push hate, a dirge and a coercer.  Troubs rarely get a look in on one of these groups and not only are dirges better parsers they also get buffed with a variety of goodies from the many clases that want them in their groups.  The mage groups are now disappointments.  Troubs generally get two or three Blades of Ro from the Wizards each bestowing a few hundred damage... yawn... that is far from impressive.  So add 1K damage to each Blade of Ro.  Now that would get me excited.</p>

[justanotherplaya]

<p><cite>DJWolf5 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>First of all, anything that won't get used in a raid, I don't care about.  Minimise it, maximise it, lose it or give it to some other class, I don't care.</p><p>Secondly, I'm not looking to become an assassin, a ranger or a swashy because unlike them I am not DPS, I am a support class or at least that is the theory.  I want to parse as well as a dirge and I fail to see the problem there.  In addition, the changes that have occurred have gradually devalued the troub and not just our own personal DPS.</p><p>There seems to be discussion about Jester's Cap and its immunity.  Great!  But lets put some thought into making it something that people want.</p><p>Countersong... 12 seconds... really?  And the re-use timer remains to keep this spell amongst the other "gimicks" that actually change nothing for my performance or for the raid.  It can sit next to Energising Ballad that is great but no one relies on you for it.</p><p>All in all, nothing here is thrilling.  For example, Rejuvenating Celebration will get an upgrade... great.  I have 5 concentration slots and so it still won't get a look in.  As for doing encounter or AOE damage, any change in this direction has limited appeal.  It just means that an ability I once used now gets counted amongst the things I cannot do when the raid leader says "No encounter or AOEs please".  And, in other circumstances without accompanying hate pushing, it will just get me killed.  That's not an upgrade so while changing Tap Essence to trickle a tiny bit of mana to the group is great but making it an encounter spell is not and diminishing its damage when it is hardly note-worthy now sets this as a downgrade.</p><p>The are two real problem for troubs.  I don't know if anyone has noticed but mages are no longer the kings of DPS they used to be.  Wizards were once guaranteed to top the parse but now they are strugling against assassins and swashies.  In part, this is due to the fact that much of what caster support offers is now irrelevant.  The wizards don't want UT anymore and the warlock, when we have one, says "I'll take it".  When our raid forms, the main tank fills his group with an assassin to push hate, a dirge and a coercer.  Troubs rarely get a look in on one of these groups and not only are dirges better parsers they also get buffed with a variety of goodies from the many clases that want them in their groups.  The mage groups are now disappointments.  Troubs generally get two or three Blades of Ro from the Wizards each bestowing a few hundred damage... yawn... that is far from impressive.  So add 1K damage to each Blade of Ro.  Now that would get me excited.</p></blockquote><p>I think countersong would be abusable if it were made more powerful. Let's say it lasted 30 seconds, you could have 12 troubs in raid and 360 secs of AoE immunity and ignore all sorts of mob strats. Same if it were on a short enough cooldown. Pretty much it's never going to be something that can be used more than once unless the ability itself is toned down more.</p><p>Not sure about your groups but with illy + inquis I get 300-400 haste/dps as well as my choice of IA or AI along with some other various things. I think that's pretty decent actually and while you could be getting more groupwide passive buffs overcaping on haste/dps is a huge part of the expected amount of buffs. It could be better, yes, but dirges in a tank group don't necessarily get buffed much more than we do in a mage group. It just that even after all that our dps still blows compared to everyone else as long as other people aren't just bad. :/ Oh yeah, not to mention it's suppppper boring doing nothing essentially on progression fights.</p>

[xdeadumx]

<p><cite>DJWolf5 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>First of all, anything that won't get used in a raid, I don't care about.  Minimise it, maximise it, lose it or give it to some other class, I don't care.</p><p>Secondly, I'm not looking to become an assassin, a ranger or a swashy because unlike them I am not DPS, I am a support class or at least that is the theory.  I want to parse as well as a dirge and I fail to see the problem there.  In addition, the changes that have occurred have gradually devalued the troub and not just our own personal DPS.</p><p>There seems to be discussion about Jester's Cap and its immunity.  Great!  But lets put some thought into making it something that people want.</p><p>Countersong... 12 seconds... really?  And the re-use timer remains to keep this spell amongst the other "gimicks" that actually change nothing for my performance or for the raid.  It can sit next to Energising Ballad that is great but no one relies on you for it.</p><p>All in all, nothing here is thrilling.  For example, Rejuvenating Celebration will get an upgrade... great.  I have 5 concentration slots and so it still won't get a look in.  As for doing encounter or AOE damage, any change in this direction has limited appeal.  It just means that an ability I once used now gets counted amongst the things I cannot do when the raid leader says "No encounter or AOEs please".  And, in other circumstances without accompanying hate pushing, it will just get me killed.  That's not an upgrade so while changing Tap Essence to trickle a tiny bit of mana to the group is great but making it an encounter spell is not and diminishing its damage when it is hardly note-worthy now sets this as a downgrade.</p><p>The are two real problem for troubs.  I don't know if anyone has noticed but mages are no longer the kings of DPS they used to be.  Wizards were once guaranteed to top the parse but now they are strugling against assassins and swashies.  In part, this is due to the fact that much of what caster support offers is now irrelevant.  The wizards don't want UT anymore and the warlock, when we have one, says "I'll take it".  When our raid forms, the main tank fills his group with an assassin to push hate, a dirge and a coercer.  Troubs rarely get a look in on one of these groups and not only are dirges better parsers they also get buffed with a variety of goodies from the many clases that want them in their groups.  The mage groups are now disappointments.  Troubs generally get two or three Blades of Ro from the Wizards each bestowing a few hundred damage... yawn... that is far from impressive.  So add 1K damage to each Blade of Ro.  Now that would get me excited.</p></blockquote><p>I totally agree.  In SF my guild went from 2 caster dps groups and 2 melee dps groups(including MT group) to DoV with 1 caster dps group and 3 melee groups.  UT and jester's cap is quite useless.  I have been putting UT on myself cause the Wizard wants TC and the illy told me he didn't need it. </p><p>That needs to be addressed.</p>

[Brienae]

<p>I fail to see how Jester's Cap and Upbeat Tempo are useless.  I also raid with only one mage group.  I usually give Upbeat Tempo to the Conji and TC goes to Wizard or Warlock (We figured out that this organization of the buffs works better for our group as a whole) Jester's Cap can be cast on anyone and give benefit.  I never give Upbeat to myself. Upbeat Tempo can also be cast on anyone and give benefit.  I've given it to the healer who is solo healing HM, I've also given it to tanks (which we rarely have in the group but sometimes for fights requiring 4 tanks) to help with their snaps and temps.  I know that Upbeat on the healer or tank is not ideal but sometimes it is needed.  As a general rule I put it on the Conji.</p>

[AziBam]

<p><cite>xdeadumx wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>DJWolf5 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>First of all, anything that won't get used in a raid, I don't care about.  Minimise it, maximise it, lose it or give it to some other class, I don't care.</p><p>Secondly, I'm not looking to become an assassin, a ranger or a swashy because unlike them I am not DPS, I am a support class or at least that is the theory.  I want to parse as well as a dirge and I fail to see the problem there.  In addition, the changes that have occurred have gradually devalued the troub and not just our own personal DPS.</p><p>There seems to be discussion about Jester's Cap and its immunity.  Great!  But lets put some thought into making it something that people want.</p><p>Countersong... 12 seconds... really?  And the re-use timer remains to keep this spell amongst the other "gimicks" that actually change nothing for my performance or for the raid.  It can sit next to Energising Ballad that is great but no one relies on you for it.</p><p>All in all, nothing here is thrilling.  For example, Rejuvenating Celebration will get an upgrade... great.  I have 5 concentration slots and so it still won't get a look in.  As for doing encounter or AOE damage, any change in this direction has limited appeal.  It just means that an ability I once used now gets counted amongst the things I cannot do when the raid leader says "No encounter or AOEs please".  And, in other circumstances without accompanying hate pushing, it will just get me killed.  That's not an upgrade so while changing Tap Essence to trickle a tiny bit of mana to the group is great but making it an encounter spell is not and diminishing its damage when it is hardly note-worthy now sets this as a downgrade.</p><p>The are two real problem for troubs.  I don't know if anyone has noticed but mages are no longer the kings of DPS they used to be.  Wizards were once guaranteed to top the parse but now they are strugling against assassins and swashies.  In part, this is due to the fact that much of what caster support offers is now irrelevant.  The wizards don't want UT anymore and the warlock, when we have one, says "I'll take it".  When our raid forms, the main tank fills his group with an assassin to push hate, a dirge and a coercer.  Troubs rarely get a look in on one of these groups and not only are dirges better parsers they also get buffed with a variety of goodies from the many clases that want them in their groups.  The mage groups are now disappointments.  Troubs generally get two or three Blades of Ro from the Wizards each bestowing a few hundred damage... yawn... that is far from impressive.  So add 1K damage to each Blade of Ro.  Now that would get me excited.</p></blockquote><p>I totally agree.  In SF my guild went from 2 caster dps groups and 2 melee dps groups(including MT group) to DoV with 1 caster dps group and 3 melee groups.  UT and jester's cap is quite useless.  I have been putting UT on myself cause the Wizard wants TC and the illy told me he didn't need it. </p><p>That needs to be addressed.</p></blockquote><p>Any wizard SHOULD decline UT in exchange for TC when given the choice.  The spell DA associated with TC does more for them than a boost to their relatively weak DoTs.  On the other hand, a warlock should ALWAYS take UT over TC as two extra ticks on their DoTs is absolutely huge for that class.  UT is far from useless.  Both of you seem to associate wizards with being the exlusive holders of mage dps.  That is simply not the case (nor should it be.) TC on Wiz and/or Conj. UT on Warlock and/or Necro. Any caster declining either of those buffs when nothing else is available is foolish.  Some casters just benefit more from one buff than the other. </p><p>From my perspective playing a warlock in raids, UT is the best buff in this game bar none. </p><p>Oh, jcap useless??  So, all 24 people in the raid are capped on reuse? (Not to mention casting and recovery.) That's a pretty well equipped bunch there.</p>

[nofish]

<p>So thanks SOE for working on troubs and now i whant to know when <span >second draft is comming, Cant realy say the changes that you made sofar makes the class better in anyway, maby slight but common you can do better that this and troubs needs it before we lose them all.</span></p><p>Ty</p>

[latesttoon]

<p><cite>Rocksthemic wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>latesttoon wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>make troub Charm  useful.. e.g. last until cancelled.</p><p>Simple.</p></blockquote><p>That is one of the changes that might be useful for PvP and to solo better I guess, but for most content it would be pretty much useless. It in no way would solve the disparity between troubadors and dirges in respect to dps and what they bring to a group. Coercers can charm quite well, but it hasn't been since TSO that I've actually heard "lets get a coercer for this group so they can charm something"</p></blockquote><p>PVP/Solo = exactly</p>

[Fairin]

<p>10/6/2011 - logged in with the new changes. set my new bars the way i like them parsed 30k more on the aoe dummies (yay!) single target didnt change only noticeing ONE problem</p><p>J-cap with no immunity timer is exceedingly annoying to make several macros and fill my hotbar</p><p>-Solution- Make Jcap give an immunity timer equal to its Duration. Please i dont want to refresh it i want to place it on as many people. without growing an extra finger or 3</p><p>-edit- if there is a solution through command macros thats sufficent for at least me. i.e. dont cast on target with buff</p><p>PS 15 crit on myth is worthless. enough dirges are crying about their new 25% flurry/potency buff. so can has it instead? -love Feyrin</p>

[Rynir]

<p>So.... This was the first draft? Can we expect any more changes?</p>