Removing Crit Mit from Zones [Archive] - EQ2 Forum Archive @ EQ2Wire

Kunaak

09-03-2011, 01:06 AM

in some ways I agree this is a good idea - however, doing it now, is actually stranger then leaving it in the game - either you establish that zones need this, and go forward as is, or remove it from all heroic zones, as it just creates this weird inconsistency.you revamp all gear to have crit mit....then remove the need for crit mit.thats a head scratcher for sure.now, the out of control crit and crit mit packages on heroic content - thats a whole different issue unto itself. if your putting crit and crit mit requirements on heroic zones, that are SO high, its almost impossible to reach with actual heroic gear, then you defeat the purpose of that mechanic ever being there in the first place. if you intend to have crit mit and crit avoid in heroic content, then the goals for those zones need to be in reach of everyone that plays heroic content. currently, in heroic only gear, one cannot reach the requirements to do a zone like EOW, even with full rygoor armor fully adorned in crit mit and crit.this is how my coercer is, and I cannot do EOW without being a hinderence to the group, as full rygoor armor + crit mit = 170 ish crit mit, and crit around 200 - without raid gear.thats well below what EOW requires.now we are going from zones that require no crit mit - to requiring extrordinary amounts of crit/mit that really does seem unobtainable without raid gear.thats gonna create a weird void in the game.

Kunaak

09-03-2011, 01:09 AM

and drundr gear is not even worth mentioning, cause that gear is completly unobtainable.I made 1 person some mystic forearms - and it was a disco.how long have these zones been out, and I am disco'ing gear from the first zone? the drundr armor is just a disaster that it cant even be mentioned with a straight face.

Anestacia

09-03-2011, 01:59 AM

I agree here. IMO Crit mit should just be taken out of all heroic zones; atleast the non challenge versions. If this is not something you are willing to do then it should at the very least be adjusted. The example the OP gave is a perfect one. Heroic (non challenge) zones should be able to be progressed 100% with zero raid gear involved. The crit/crit mit requirements on the later zones is just too high and leads to all your time and effort being for nothing for a big chunck of the player base.Regular Heroic should allow for casual groupers to complete with using group progression. Im not saying you should be able to jump straight into Drunder/EoW with PQ gear but give non raiders a sense of progression too. Also, its also not fun to be required to adorn everything with crit mit just to survive when there are many other useful yellow adornments we cant even use because of it.And yes, Drunder gear in its current state is useless. Making the bars tradeable was a good idea but if very few people are running the zones in general then it still makes it a moot point. Doing away with the crit mit in the listed zones is a good start but more work is needed on these zones. Make grouping FUN again and not just an AoE survivng game.

Cratoh

09-03-2011, 02:15 AM

leave crit mit alone thanks very much, nto everyone feels like you do.

Anestacia

09-03-2011, 02:22 AM

<cite>Cratoh wrote:</cite><blockquote>leave crit mit alone thanks very much, nto everyone feels like you do. </blockquote>I can pretty much gurantee almost all non raiders do feel that way and thats who this change would involve.

Kincaid

09-03-2011, 04:46 AM

Leave crit mit as it is imo, its part of the natural progression that a lot of us gone through to be able to survive in such zones. To farm shards in the easier ones to get enough gear to survive in the more difficult ones. I rather not see newly 90 toons without the gear to enable them to contribute to a grp jumping straight into Iceshard Keep.Besides, doesn't all of the gear thats changed in sentinal's fate include crit mit? Why add crit mit in with the itemization only to remove the need for it?

Bremer

09-03-2011, 08:14 AM

First they put crit mit even on lvl 70 gear and then they remove the crit mit requirements from those zones where noone had problems with crit mit in the first place? Doesn't seem very logical. And I think the problem wasn't really the crit mit/crit chance requirement, but the progression. You don't get enough crit chance from Hold of Rime loot to get 100 % crit in KD, you don't get enough crit chance from KD loot to crit in Drunder and you don't get enough crit chance from Drunder loot to crit in EoW. And then you have the problems that the mobs in Drunder are not only very tough, they also have high DPS rquirements and tons of HP. So a group of players that don't raid not only has to deal with tough mobs, but also they can't crit properly and lose lots of DPS, thus making the mobs even harder. So noone runs the zones and noone gets the armor that in SOEs intention should be used to get to EoW. Pretty broken progression. But noone cares. I made 1 month ago a post about an encounter in Drunder, that can be killed, looted and then resets and can be killed and looted again over and over and there was no fix. They don't even bother to make exploit fixes there.

Kincaid

09-03-2011, 12:20 PM

Theres enough items per class and yellow crit mit and crit chance adornments to survive and and do the dps. Its just a matter of doing the progression thats already in place to farm shards and increasingly get better gear. Its been stated that players with just top end heroic gear from temple and throne of storms can make a difference in Drunder, and that was before Drunder was made easy.The concern is removing the progression path of needing crit mit from TOFS, Hold of Rime, and Iceshard Keep.If you wanted to do a Drunder zone in treasured gear and with 10k health, then thats a bit ambitious <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Anestacia

09-03-2011, 01:53 PM

<cite>Fibonacci@Splitpaw wrote:</cite><blockquote>Theres enough items per class and yellow crit mit and crit chance adornments to survive and and do the dps. Its just a matter of doing the progression thats already in place to farm shards and increasingly get better gear. Its been stated that players with just top end heroic gear from temple and throne of storms can make a difference in Drunder, and that was before Drunder was made easy.The concern is removing the progression path of needing crit mit from TOFS, Hold of Rime, and Iceshard Keep.If you wanted to do a Drunder zone in treasured gear and with 10k health, then thats a bit ambitious <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" /></blockquote>No one said anything about doing Drunder in treasured gear. =/ I personally don't care if they leave the crit mit in or not. It's a bit late in the expansion to care since i have already run all the zones on that list anyway. There just need to be a lot more clear progression path than there is atm. All of TOFS and all of Velks (cept last named in Hold) drop sub par gear when comparing it to PQ gear (which should be used for starter gear only due to ease of aquiring).Maybe they have fixed Drunder; who knows b/c I didnt even bother with it since after it first released. If they did thats wonderful, but at the time if you had just heroic/rygorr gear there was just too much gap between the player and the mobs. Raid gear in Heroic groups should only assist in getting the zone done quicker, NOT hinging on it in order to do the zone at all. I know its hard to get some people to understand this point of view since they truly believe that raiding is all there is in EQ2 and if you dont do it your some scrub or w/e, but I assure you that there are many more non raiders out there that are stuck at certain HEROIC zones b/c of their choice not to raid. That should not be how this game works. Raiders have the challenge mode Heroics to do, let the casual grouper PROGRESS (not get a hand out) through the normal zones all the way to the latest one.

Ahlana

09-03-2011, 01:57 PM

Me and my guild are looking forward to this change and I agree with some others in that CritMit should be removed from Heroic zones entirely and left on the Challenge Version of the zones.But this is a start and I /appluad it personally.

Gaige

09-03-2011, 02:59 PM

Nerfing content happens sure, totally removing game mechanics? That usually doesn't. Crit Mit was reitemized gamewide and then removed, kind of silly.They should've just rescaled the packages so that the zones were doable in gear you could obtain from the progression.

SgtPmpkn

09-03-2011, 02:59 PM

Seems you guys got what you wanted..From Test Update notes:The following zones no longer require critical mitigation to survive:<ul><li><div>Iceshard Keep Heroic</div></li><li><div>Tower of Frozen Shadow: Shadowed Corridors</div></li><li><div>Tower of Frozen Shadow: Umbral Halls</div></li><li><div>Tower of Frozen Shadow: Haunt of Syl’Tor</div></li><li><div>Forgotten Pools</div></li><li><div>Hold of Rime: The Ascent</div></li><li><div>Hold of Rime: The Fortress Spire</div></li><li><div>Crystal Caverns: Collapse</div></li></ul>

Ahlana

09-03-2011, 03:02 PM

SgtPmpkn

09-03-2011, 03:11 PM

<cite>Ahlana wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Gaige wrote:</cite><blockquote>Nerfing content happens sure, totally removing game mechanics? That usually doesn't. Crit Mit was reitemized gamewide and then removed, kind of silly.They should've just rescaled the packages so that the zones were doable in gear you could obtain from the progression.</blockquote>Fair enough, that I can agree with.And SgtPmpkn.. the test notes is what this post is all about</blockquote>Sorry seen this idea and post come up numerous times before the test notes, didnt know it was in direct relation.

Artaxiel

09-03-2011, 03:12 PM

Oh SOE's gonna love how they shot themselves in the foot with this one. So apparently the easiest zones in the expansion are toooo haaaaarrrrrd for a (sizeable?) portion of the player base, so they're removing one of the fundamental entrance requirements, despite having just spent tons of time and cash on reitemizing other expansion content so the mouth breathers that can't figure out how to get their crit mit to 120 can still go in there with their smoking hot SF gear. Nice. Fine. Whatever. What does SOE plan to do when said players do all the now-super easy content, and want to go into a more difficult zone? ZOMGWTFBBQ! I NEED CRIT MIT OF 140 TO DO THIS! THIS ISN'T FAIR! I'M NOT A RAIDER!!!1110111lolz And incoming nerf bat... for no reason.There's nothing wrong with the concept of the crit mit stat. There is everything wrong with its implementation. Instead of making the only entrance requirement for the first two tiers of DoV expansions a drool cup, why not either a) increase crit mit on basic gear - which will have the raiders screaming -- or b) reduce/rebalance requirements in those zones, which raiders don't care about it (I sure don't care what they do to Pools) and will keep the casuals happy.Ultimately this move of theirs is fairly neutral to me. I did the simple work of getting my gear to where it needed to be to do those zones, and now that it's been changed I couldn't care less about those zones. What will irritate me is when I'm trying to do more difficult content and I'm LFM I'll get tells from the beknighted casuals whom this change caters to, who will have hissy fits that I won't take them to ToT with a crit mit of 125, because dontcha know they got the new gear and it's so easy now to do content, hurr durr. Good God, SOE. Rebalance crit mit, don't remove it. That's 85% of your problem.

Ahlana

09-03-2011, 03:32 PM

<cite>Artaxiel wrote:</cite><blockquote>So apparently the easiest zones in the expansion are toooo haaaaarrrrrd for a (sizeable?) portion of the player base, so they're removing one of the fundamental entrance requirements.</blockquote>Who said the zones are too hard... they have an artifical flag on them that is all..I did ToFS duo with my wife with unadorned PQ gear when it first came out.. (up til the sarge with the healing adds). These dungeons are not hard..It would be different if the gear progressed better, instead you would get gear that was a little better CritMit wise but in alot of cases worse in other stats (or so incremently small it doesn't matter). So you are taking gear just for this one number in order to progress, this one magically stat. Now though you open the lower tiers and people can save tokens for Rygorr Gear which is a nice jump.. instead of wasting tokens for critmit adorns for each little jump they get. It makes sense this way, really it does.They could readjust the CritMit requirements.. but isn't that pretty much the same as removing em? We can say that it is still there but if it is lowered to PQ levels then it is essentially removed for all intents and purposes. /shrugEither way it was done wrong from the beginning,

Anestacia

09-03-2011, 05:53 PM

<cite>Artaxiel wrote:</cite><blockquote>What will irritate me is when I'm trying to do more difficult content and I'm LFM I'll get tells from the beknighted casuals whom this change caters to, who will have hissy fits that I won't take them to ToT with a crit mit of 125, because dontcha know they got the new gear and it's so easy now to do content, hurr durr. </blockquote>And what irritates me is stuck on themselves people who think they are so spectacular that they can accept or deny casual scrubs because they are so elite. If you are as wonderful as you claim, then why would you ever want to do pick ups in the first place? We hear all the time how people feel they are superior and they will only group within their own guilds. Thats 100% the thing to do and means that THOSE people are in deed actually what they claim. People like you, however, that have to pick up "scrubs" or "newbs" or "beknighted casuals (?)" just proves you arent as hot as you dream to be or wouldn't need the help of the peons. Get over yourself imo.

Morghus

09-03-2011, 05:58 PM

Anestacia

09-03-2011, 06:06 PM

I'm sure this change has everything to do with the upcoming dungeon finder. It will indeed prevent alot of predictable problems associated with randomly generated PuGs but it really is going to be all or nothing. As it stands now, I dont see how they are going to do the dungeon finder w/o gear score anyway so maybe this is just the easier way out.Crit mit was a big problem at launch of DoV but its something that most people came to accept. I'm fine if they remove it but seems a better idea to just readjust needed amount of Crit mit in ALL non challenge mode zones. Make progression climb, make sense and be achievable purely by grouping. Reitemizing of the lower tiers was nice (though a bit messy) but DoV should have been the first content to get reitemized. PQ gear is too powerful with insane amounts of casting speed that can't be duplicated even on raid upgraded pieces of the same slot. Heroic gear is too weak and is in almost everyway sub par to PQ. Challenge mode gear seems to be very similar to EM raids and should be increased (or EM decreased). Lots of work is needed on DoV items and it just needs to be all spread out on the table and reworked from the beggining. Since we are going to be in DoV and at level 90 for the long future, something needs to happen.

Anestacia

09-03-2011, 06:11 PM

<cite>Morghus@Butcherblock wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Anestacia wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Artaxiel wrote:</cite><blockquote>What will irritate me is when I'm trying to do more difficult content and I'm LFM I'll get tells from the beknighted casuals whom this change caters to, who will have hissy fits that I won't take them to ToT with a crit mit of 125, because dontcha know they got the new gear and it's so easy now to do content, hurr durr. </blockquote>And what irritates me is stuck on themselves people who think they are so spectacular that they can accept or deny casual scrubs because they are so elite. If you are as wonderful as you claim, then why would you ever want to do pick ups in the first place? We hear all the time how people feel they are superior and they will only group within their own guilds. Thats 100% the thing to do and means that THOSE people are in deed actually what they claim. People like you, however, that have to pick up "scrubs" or "newbs" or "beknighted casuals (?)" just proves you arent as hot as you dream to be or wouldn't need the help of the peons. Get over yourself imo.</blockquote>It's not really a superiority issue so much as a fun/gear issue. I am one of those "better geared" people, and I have occasionally picked up lesser geared people for zones they may not exactly be ready for...like the Drunder heroics.I mean yeah, sure we beat the zone anyway, but I'm not sure how much the other person enjoyed it as they would usually end up dying repeatedly when a mob sneezes, doing almost no dps, and generally being carried through by the rest of the group.I don't think that is much fun for them unless they really do enjoy just being along for the ride.</blockquote>Exactly; which is a good reason that they remove the crit mit from all non challenge heroic zones OR adjust those numbers to allow a more even progression. Being carried is not fun and thats why I know my limits on where to group. I do not raid any more and have zero plans to ever start back up. For my personal life, its too time consuming and restricting and I just dont care to do it anymore. I dont want godly gear or a hand out. I just want to see GROUP zones w/o be required to RAID.

Kruschev2086

09-03-2011, 08:39 PM

<cite>Anestacia wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Morghus@Butcherblock wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Anestacia wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Artaxiel wrote:</cite><blockquote>What will irritate me is when I'm trying to do more difficult content and I'm LFM I'll get tells from the beknighted casuals whom this change caters to, who will have hissy fits that I won't take them to ToT with a crit mit of 125, because dontcha know they got the new gear and it's so easy now to do content, hurr durr. </blockquote>And what irritates me is stuck on themselves people who think they are so spectacular that they can accept or deny casual scrubs because they are so elite. If you are as wonderful as you claim, then why would you ever want to do pick ups in the first place? We hear all the time how people feel they are superior and they will only group within their own guilds. Thats 100% the thing to do and means that THOSE people are in deed actually what they claim. People like you, however, that have to pick up "scrubs" or "newbs" or "beknighted casuals (?)" just proves you arent as hot as you dream to be or wouldn't need the help of the peons. Get over yourself imo.</blockquote>It's not really a superiority issue so much as a fun/gear issue. I am one of those "better geared" people, and I have occasionally picked up lesser geared people for zones they may not exactly be ready for...like the Drunder heroics.I mean yeah, sure we beat the zone anyway, but I'm not sure how much the other person enjoyed it as they would usually end up dying repeatedly when a mob sneezes, doing almost no dps, and generally being carried through by the rest of the group.I don't think that is much fun for them unless they really do enjoy just being along for the ride.</blockquote>Exactly; which is a good reason that they remove the crit mit from all non challenge heroic zones OR adjust those numbers to allow a more even progression. Being carried is not fun and thats why I know my limits on where to group. I do not raid any more and have zero plans to ever start back up. For my personal life, its too time consuming and restricting and I just dont care to do it anymore. I dont want godly gear or a hand out. I just want to see GROUP zones w/o be required to RAID.</blockquote>Except as they continue to release new heroic zones, you will need to be geared above launch raid zones to do those heroics. Look at Drunder. 150-160CM and you can have a halfway reasonable chance of survival. Look at Elements of War, the next in progression. 200 CM. Regular Kraytocs x4 (EM) requires how much CM to not be eaten on AEs? I know most won't try without 130, and some will go with less. With the regular ToRZ BP, and rygorr, EoW still has a buff package making it mean you will be crit on (short around 40 points of CM)So as they add content, what do you want them to do? 200 being the limit they can do? In hm gear 300cm is possible. Not pleasant, but it can be done. So should the new content only be for raiders? Oh, then we will have all the group only non-raiders whining they cant see the lore for DoV. So this means new quests with gear comparable to HM launch gear so you can come see what instances are out there. This will then set off the raiders who have spent their time farming these mobs for that gear, only to be told hey, quests over here...get as much cm as your hm w/ adorns you spent shards and plat on. So which part of the community do you want to upset the most?

Anestacia

09-03-2011, 08:59 PM

<cite>Kruschev2086 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Anestacia wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Morghus@Butcherblock wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Anestacia wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Artaxiel wrote:</cite><blockquote>What will irritate me is when I'm trying to do more difficult content and I'm LFM I'll get tells from the beknighted casuals whom this change caters to, who will have hissy fits that I won't take them to ToT with a crit mit of 125, because dontcha know they got the new gear and it's so easy now to do content, hurr durr. </blockquote>And what irritates me is stuck on themselves people who think they are so spectacular that they can accept or deny casual scrubs because they are so elite. If you are as wonderful as you claim, then why would you ever want to do pick ups in the first place? We hear all the time how people feel they are superior and they will only group within their own guilds. Thats 100% the thing to do and means that THOSE people are in deed actually what they claim. People like you, however, that have to pick up "scrubs" or "newbs" or "beknighted casuals (?)" just proves you arent as hot as you dream to be or wouldn't need the help of the peons. Get over yourself imo.</blockquote>It's not really a superiority issue so much as a fun/gear issue. I am one of those "better geared" people, and I have occasionally picked up lesser geared people for zones they may not exactly be ready for...like the Drunder heroics.I mean yeah, sure we beat the zone anyway, but I'm not sure how much the other person enjoyed it as they would usually end up dying repeatedly when a mob sneezes, doing almost no dps, and generally being carried through by the rest of the group.I don't think that is much fun for them unless they really do enjoy just being along for the ride.</blockquote>Exactly; which is a good reason that they remove the crit mit from all non challenge heroic zones OR adjust those numbers to allow a more even progression. Being carried is not fun and thats why I know my limits on where to group. I do not raid any more and have zero plans to ever start back up. For my personal life, its too time consuming and restricting and I just dont care to do it anymore. I dont want godly gear or a hand out. I just want to see GROUP zones w/o be required to RAID.</blockquote>Except as they continue to release new heroic zones, you will need to be geared above launch raid zones to do those heroics. Look at Drunder. 150-160CM and you can have a halfway reasonable chance of survival. Look at Elements of War, the next in progression. 200 CM. Regular Kraytocs x4 (EM) requires how much CM to not be eaten on AEs? I know most won't try without 130, and some will go with less. With the regular ToRZ BP, and rygorr, EoW still has a buff package making it mean you will be crit on (short around 40 points of CM)So as they add content, what do you want them to do? 200 being the limit they can do? In hm gear 300cm is possible. Not pleasant, but it can be done. So should the new content only be for raiders? Oh, then we will have all the group only non-raiders whining they cant see the lore for DoV. So this means new quests with gear comparable to HM launch gear so you can come see what instances are out there. This will then set off the raiders who have spent their time farming these mobs for that gear, only to be told hey, quests over here...get as much cm as your hm w/ adorns you spent shards and plat on. So which part of the community do you want to upset the most?</blockquote>A perfect example of why getting rid of crit mit all together in heroic zones is a good idea.

Artaxiel

09-03-2011, 09:02 PM

<cite>Anestacia wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Artaxiel wrote:</cite><blockquote>What will irritate me is when I'm trying to do more difficult content and I'm LFM I'll get tells from the beknighted casuals whom this change caters to, who will have hissy fits that I won't take them to ToT with a crit mit of 125, because dontcha know they got the new gear and it's so easy now to do content, hurr durr. </blockquote>And what irritates me is stuck on themselves people who think they are so spectacular that they can accept or deny casual scrubs because they are so elite. If you are as wonderful as you claim, then why would you ever want to do pick ups in the first place? We hear all the time how people feel they are superior and they will only group within their own guilds. Thats 100% the thing to do and means that THOSE people are in deed actually what they claim. People like you, however, that have to pick up "scrubs" or "newbs" or "beknighted casuals (?)" just proves you arent as hot as you dream to be or wouldn't need the help of the peons. Get over yourself imo.</blockquote>Do you really think that there's some secret place where hardcore raiders relax, carpeted in plush Oriental silks and landscaped with pillows, where we all relax in clouds of incense and shisha smoke while Devs serve us drinks and give us our choice of gear? Let me tell you why raiders won't group with casuals. My raw stats include a CM of 263, a CC of 295, a CB of 200, a potency of 200, as well as a cast speed of 97.3% and a reuse of 87%. This means I hit like the hand of God. If I join a casual group, I know that in the end I may wind up tanking. It's not the fault of the casual, usually. It's the extreme mismatch in gear. When I go with casuals somewhere (a great rarity anymore) it's to either get a piece of gear for an alt, or to go shiny hunting. I do not have compensation issues. I do not get a concupiscent thrill out of looking at ACT and seeing that I'm rolling at 120k DPS, and the assassin behind me (who is doing his very best) is throwing out 65k. That isn't his fault, and it's not really mine, either. It's the gear mismatch. I don't like being able to throw three spells when we start, turn out autoattack, go grab another glass of iced tea, and come back to 35k DPS on silk caster autoattack. That's ridiculous. My other option is to not cast or attack and basically be a buff bot for a bunch of strangers. That's no fun for me, either, because when I'm logged in I want to mash buttons, too. This is not enjoyable. It aggravates me when I'm with a group of casuals who are struggling with content and they meet the most basic requirements of gear upgrades. Go get your crit mit. It matters (well, it used to.) It can be done, and it can be done easily. It's an arrogant, entitled attitude to think otherwise. I'm guessing you haven't been to many Drunder zones. Let me tell you how those go. I don't consider them valid dungeons because in order to survive the mobs you need to have raid gear. I did not wake up one morning and make it this way. SOE did. I don't like doing Drunder zones because there are no upgrades in there for me. Why? I needed to be raid geared to do this zone, I am raid geared (albeit overmuch, but still) to do this zone, and it drops crap on par with what you get out of ToRZ, maybe the slightest hair better. It's surely not better than raid gear, and I can promise you it doesn't hold a candle to what I'm wearing. That means I can either loot it for Yet Another Alt, or I can sell it to the casuals. My EQ life is farming mobs that hit stupidly hard for crap that I don't need, so I can sell crap to casuals and take their money. This is what SOE's game mechanics have forced me to do. I am that raider always selling stuff in channel. I am that raider that you hate. Let me clarify something for you, since in your blind rage you're not seeing the big picture here. Do you seriously think I *don't* want casuals in better gear? I can't get a dirge on a late night because no one meets the crit mit requirements. I wouldn't mind taking some less-blessed player into the zones if you didn't die to literally every AE (and on many fights, that's about every 30 seconds or so) and need a bot every other room. I'm not exaggerating. That's what happens when you don't meet requirements because these mobs hit that hard. I would rather have a broader pool of people to pull from when I need them than to know I've got two shots at a dirge or I can't play at all that night. It does not work to my advantage for your gear to fail so bad. Do you understand that? I want you guys to meet minimum zone requirements because it makes my job easier. Now get off the cross, please. We're on the same side.

Shotneedle

09-03-2011, 11:36 PM

Btw, EM EoW requires 120 crit mit and 250 crit chance. Readorn a few pieces of your gear for crit chance (or get a 2nd set), invite a bard, and bring a crit banner.

Felshades

09-03-2011, 11:44 PM

So.What happens when they do all these zones with no crit mit, think they're hot sauce, and then try to go do ToRZ in their othmir gear?

Skeez1e

09-04-2011, 12:11 AM

I ran Pools and Ascent with alts (no Ry'Gorr on them) today - didn't feel any different.

Anestacia

09-04-2011, 12:26 AM

<cite>Skeez1e wrote:</cite><blockquote>I ran Pools and Ascent with alts (no Ry'Gorr on them) today - didn't feel any different. </blockquote>Were you wearing any crit mit gear at all? Those zones have always required lowest of the crit mit anyway so even othmir/PQ is probably enough to negate the effects.

Sestra

09-04-2011, 01:01 AM

I am a casual player (dont have the time to raid alas) in full ry gorr gear and i still never see a majority of the heroic content. Simply put things should really boil down to one simple thing ("Heroic zones should not require raid gear to do.") it should require higher end heroic gear to do the higher end heroic zones but as it stands and what alot of people said is, Progression of heroic gear is foobared. Itemization needs adjustment simply said.

Shotneedle

09-04-2011, 01:43 AM

The gear is fine. In rygorr armor you meet the requirements for Drunder/EoW.What it really boils down to is the casual playerbase isn't that great skillwise and needs the content toned down because it's too hard.

Juravael

09-04-2011, 01:45 AM

I swear .. this game keeps getting dumbed down more and more. Lame.

Felshades

09-04-2011, 02:40 AM

<cite>Anestacia wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Skeez1e wrote:</cite><blockquote>I ran Pools and Ascent with alts (no Ry'Gorr on them) today - didn't feel any different. </blockquote>Were you wearing any crit mit gear at all? Those zones have always required lowest of the crit mit anyway so even othmir/PQ is probably enough to negate the effects.</blockquote>You don't even need that if the rest of the group is decent.You can zone in as early as 85. Which I've done on my mystic, illusionist, warlock and dirge.In fact, Sakiri's first velious instance was Shadowed Corridors. I get invited to group right after a PQ and Im like ok whats up? "we're going to tofs:SC" and they zone me in. "Aren't I too little for this still?" "Nope" and we finished it. Two healed it, but both healers were undergeared. I was in SF quest gear and the other one in SF quest gear, but being 90.

Sestra

09-04-2011, 12:01 PM

Well when you look for a group there is no way for them to tell how good said player is they only say 200 cm+ for say drunder. Ry`gorr gear doesn't give 200 cm. i've played this game since launch, even raided during some expansions. in fact, i can probably say i know the ins and outs of my classes better then even some hardcore's. They needn't really remove crit mit all together from heroic zones but adjust item balance a bit so people can actually get gear to do them.

ZUES

09-04-2011, 12:58 PM

I got hit SOOOOO hard that this happened...<img src="http://paradox.premiermmo.com/GuildFiles/425041/damaged%20goods.png" />

Amanathia

09-04-2011, 01:36 PM

<cite>Gaige wrote:</cite><blockquote>Nerfing content happens sure, totally removing game mechanics? That usually doesn't. Crit Mit was reitemized gamewide and then removed, kind of silly.They should've just rescaled the packages so that the zones were doable in gear you could obtain from the progression.</blockquote>Seriously. Crit mit is kind of silly, and it's not an issue for me on my main cuz I have EM raid gear, but still weird.Imho, it shuld be like this:1. Quest gear gives you enough crit mit for tower of frozen shadow, which then gears you up enough that ...2. With that and PQ gear you have enough crit mit for Velks zones, you get a few upgrades there OR ALTERNATIVELY, GEM FOR CRIT MIT to bypass some content if you choose, or to compensate for unlucky drops...3. That gets you to Kael, which then gives you enough crit mit for drunder and EOW. But you might be able to skip a few thigns here and there if you gem for it.Really crit mit isnt a bad mechanic, it was just the gear progression that is an issue.

Felshades

09-04-2011, 02:21 PM

<cite>Amanathia wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Gaige wrote:</cite><blockquote>Nerfing content happens sure, totally removing game mechanics? That usually doesn't. Crit Mit was reitemized gamewide and then removed, kind of silly.They should've just rescaled the packages so that the zones were doable in gear you could obtain from the progression.</blockquote>Seriously. Crit mit is kind of silly, and it's not an issue for me on my main cuz I have EM raid gear, but still weird.Imho, it shuld be like this:1. Quest gear gives you enough crit mit for tower of frozen shadow, which then gears you up enough that ...2. With that and PQ gear you have enough crit mit for Velks zones, you get a few upgrades there OR ALTERNATIVELY, GEM FOR CRIT MIT to bypass some content if you choose, or to compensate for unlucky drops...3. That gets you to Kael, which then gives you enough crit mit for drunder and EOW. But you might be able to skip a few thigns here and there if you gem for it.Really crit mit isnt a bad mechanic, it was just the gear progression that is an issue.</blockquote>This IS how it worked.Gear progression was fine. The problem I see is that the game does not tell you which dungeons you should be going to and in what order at all. There is nothing telling you that Spire is harder than Ascent, or that Haunt is harder than Shadowed Corridors. Nothing at all.So essentially you get people that just hit 90, hear there's awesome gear in X zone, and they want to do it. In my case, its always undergeared people wanting to do ToRZ for the breastplate.

Davngr1

09-04-2011, 02:46 PM

the problem is that herroic content has never been part of raid proggression and now it is. it's a terrible change, having to join a raid force to run 6 man content goes against everything this game is suppose to be imo.

Felshades

09-04-2011, 03:06 PM

<cite>Davngr1 wrote:</cite><blockquote>the problem is that herroic content has never been part of raid proggression and now it is. it's a terrible change, having to join a raid force to run 6 man content goes against everything this game is suppose to be imo.</blockquote>You missed TSO didn't you?There were a few dungeons in there that if you didn't have raid gear, you weren't clearing them.

Amanathia

09-04-2011, 03:11 PM

<cite>Nadirah@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote>This IS how it worked.Gear progression was fine. The problem I see is that the game does not tell you which dungeons you should be going to and in what order at all. There is nothing telling you that Spire is harder than Ascent, or that Haunt is harder than Shadowed Corridors. Nothing at all.So essentially you get people that just hit 90, hear there's awesome gear in X zone, and they want to do it. In my case, its always undergeared people wanting to do ToRZ for the breastplate.</blockquote>Sort of (as to how it worked). Agree on progression (telling you where to go, etc). There's more to it than just crit mit, too, honestly.In reality: TOFS gear is usually worse than PQ so people just take non-armor pieces. Ascent/Spire/Pools doesn't get your CM up very much either, but those zones are still doable just fine... Still, at this point I think we're fine. Then go to kael, okay, no worries there either imho. (though in reality SOE nerfed them). But then from there to drunder...uhhh...hmmm....Try clearing drunder instances with no raid gear. While possible, it would be an extremely awful experience and some fights would require a really tweaked group makeup.Instead of them removing crit mit from the starting instances though (which is only going to make the issue worse when people don't gear for it at all and then go try to do drunder), we need a nice smooth logical progression and then like you said, something that makes it clear where people should try to go.Then again, loot is just so screwy. Risk vs. reward is all out of whack. Also, I think ry'gorr gear needs a bit of a boost (ie, caster gear should have the casting speed on it that the PQ gear has!) Tserinna x2 robe should be better than it is, etc. Gear from TOFS shouldn't be worse than PQ gear, or at best a side grade.This change is just going to make an already bizzaro difficulty gap between say, Spire, and Drunder, even wider. But instead of fixing gear progression I'm sure what will happen is we'll get a nerf to the drunder zone difficulty, blah. <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Felshades

09-04-2011, 03:38 PM

<cite>Amanathia wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Nadirah@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote>This IS how it worked.Gear progression was fine. The problem I see is that the game does not tell you which dungeons you should be going to and in what order at all. There is nothing telling you that Spire is harder than Ascent, or that Haunt is harder than Shadowed Corridors. Nothing at all.So essentially you get people that just hit 90, hear there's awesome gear in X zone, and they want to do it. In my case, its always undergeared people wanting to do ToRZ for the breastplate.</blockquote>Sort of (as to how it worked). Agree on progression (telling you where to go, etc). There's more to it than just crit mit, too, honestly.In reality: TOFS gear is usually worse than PQ so people just take non-armor pieces. Ascent/Spire/Pools doesn't get your CM up very much either, but those zones are still doable just fine... Still, at this point I think we're fine. Then go to kael, okay, no worries there either imho. (though in reality SOE nerfed them). But then from there to drunder...uhhh...hmmm....Try clearing drunder instances with no raid gear. While possible, it would be an extremely awful experience and some fights would require a really tweaked group makeup.Instead of them removing crit mit from the starting instances though (which is only going to make the issue worse when people don't gear for it at all and then go try to do drunder), we need a nice smooth logical progression and then like you said, something that makes it clear where people should try to go.Then again, loot is just so screwy. Risk vs. reward is all out of whack. Also, I think ry'gorr gear needs a bit of a boost (ie, caster gear should have the casting speed on it that the PQ gear has!) Tserinna x2 robe should be better than it is, etc. Gear from TOFS shouldn't be worse than PQ gear, or at best a side grade.This change is just going to make an already bizzaro difficulty gap between say, Spire, and Drunder, even wider. But instead of fixing gear progression I'm sure what will happen is we'll get a nerf to the drunder zone difficulty, blah. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" /></blockquote>To be fair, most of the bosses in ToFS drops appearance gear it seems.They didn't remove crit mit from ToRZ or ToS. That'll be interesting.Also, I'd kill to try Drunder instances. Course, becuase most of my gear is Ry'Gorr and Kael stuff, I'm not geared enough to do Drunder. Gotta have that EM stuff so the drops aren't an upgrade.

Davngr1

09-04-2011, 06:02 PM

<cite>Nadirah@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Davngr1 wrote:</cite><blockquote>the problem is that herroic content has never been part of raid proggression and now it is. it's a terrible change, having to join a raid force to run 6 man content goes against everything this game is suppose to be imo.</blockquote>You missed TSO didn't you?There were a few dungeons in there that if you didn't have raid gear, you weren't clearing them.</blockquote>well that's different.. those dungons were hard but eventally strats became known and people geard their self up to the point that they could clear them. towards the end of TSO those zones were cleard by pugs with moderate effort. now, these 6 man zones are conciderd RAID/24 man proggression. that is what suxx about this and i really don't know who thought this was a good idea but it's really not. casual will be confused by the legendary gear tags and 6 man zones and not understand that those zones are to come after RAID/24 man easy mode zones in proggression. spliting the raid force into 4 groups is lame. further it makes having the right classes even more of a pain because the raid force will NEED 4 tanks and maybe 8 healers depending on how hard the zone is. not to mention 4 dirges and 4 chanters still. cos i know if i'm tanking a hard zone, i don't want a troub, i want a dirge. the stoneskin,accuracy,skills,hate are leaps and bounds ahead of anything a troub offers. in short this is du.mb and you should really just nerf that gear down to 6 man caliber, maybe leave one or two good items and call it a day. lame idea is lame.

Felshades

09-04-2011, 06:31 PM

So wait, you want to be able to get in ry'gorr gear and clear EoW that drops gear on par with some raid gear?How about.. go raid. Or ask them to put in easier instances for you to get more appropriate gear from instead of whining the ones like EoW are too hard?Ugh. NM. There's always going to be people complaining. Always.

Anestacia

09-04-2011, 07:18 PM

<cite>Nadirah@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote>So wait, you want to be able to get in ry'gorr gear and clear EoW that drops gear on par with some raid gear?How about.. go raid. Or ask them to put in easier instances for you to get more appropriate gear from instead of whining the ones like EoW are too hard?Ugh. NM. There's always going to be people complaining. Always.</blockquote>How about.. not telling people what to do with their free time? Why should one HAVE to raid in order to see GROUP content. EoW should be doable with apropriate Heroic gear and should NOT require raid gear. Raiders get challenge mode, let non raiders have something too. The fact that the gear in EoW is too good is a whole other subject but still does not change the fact that there should be a clear and precise progression line for gear. No one's saying they want to jump into EoW with PQ gear. The problem is not exactly crit mit but the whole itemization of DOV. I've seen it said several times, oh EoW can be done in Ry'gor. Yes, a DPS or maybe a healer can be carried through, but I would love to see an entire group of Ry'gor only/instance jewelry geared players do the EM mode of EoW or even Drunder for that matter. Ry'gor should allow you to do the Drunder zones decently enough to then gear up with the Drunder gear, then be ready for EoW. Thats how it should work and its not that way.

Davngr1

09-04-2011, 08:08 PM

circusgirl

09-04-2011, 08:30 PM

I'm not a fan of this because it creates a sudden jump in requirements for the harder raid zones. I would be perfectly okay with nerfing the crit mit that's needed for these zones--even if it meens nerfing them HARD, so long as we maintain some semblence of progression. If you only want to give ToFS mobs 10 crit bonus, that's fine...but give them /something/. This current setup basically means that a large portion of your playerbase is going to be unprepared for and uneducated about a very important mechanic.

Felshades

09-04-2011, 08:40 PM

<cite>Davngr1 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Nadirah@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote>So wait, you want to be able to get in ry'gorr gear and clear EoW that drops gear on par with some raid gear?How about.. go raid. Or ask them to put in easier instances for you to get more appropriate gear from instead of whining the ones like EoW are too hard?Ugh. NM. There's always going to be people complaining. Always.</blockquote>excuse me but who is this post directed at? because if it's in response to my post then your reading comprehension is poor to nil.casuals have no way to get the gear needed to run these zones and raiders don't want to kill heroic content for the sake of progression, period. if you don't know that then you have not been playing this game very long and no this is not a good change.</blockquote>I've been playing the game longer than you have I bet. And there is nothing wrong with needing raid gear to get into zones that give... raid gear level items.Drunder, you do not need raid gear for. If you think you do, you're running with the wrong group.

Crismorn

09-04-2011, 08:53 PM

Good change, leave kiddie zones as no crit mit and make EM raids require small amounts of crit mit, hard heroic zones require more than EM raids and finally HM raids require the most Crit mit.Well done!

Kruschev2086

09-04-2011, 11:11 PM

This xpack is not grab and go friendly. If you do not want to build a proper group for a zone, then you best overpower the zone. Chanter, Bard, Hate Xfer. If you don't have the setup, then it will be painful. So get your gear in line. Raiders camp the forums and comment on both sides of the game. Casuals rarely contribute to the problems raiders have. Remember those threads about how we have to adorn pure Crit mit to take on content? Guess what. It went unheard. Now here is the bed. If you want to grab and go with whatever, then guess what. You can't do the content when it is appropriate. On the note of this change...I would expect ToS, ToRZ, Drunder, all being nerfed CM wise. Why? Cause they wont dare release new heroic content that needs more cm than a hm raid. And at their current progression, that is where they are heading. So now dumb it down, time to add more stuff.

Felshades

09-04-2011, 11:41 PM

<cite>Kruschev2086 wrote:</cite><blockquote>This xpack is not grab and go friendly. If you do not want to build a proper group for a zone, then you best overpower the zone. Chanter, Bard, Hate Xfer. If you don't have the setup, then it will be painful. So get your gear in line. Raiders camp the forums and comment on both sides of the game. Casuals rarely contribute to the problems raiders have. Remember those threads about how we have to adorn pure Crit mit to take on content? Guess what. It went unheard. Now here is the bed. If you want to grab and go with whatever, then guess what. You can't do the content when it is appropriate. On the note of this change...I would expect ToS, ToRZ, Drunder, all being nerfed CM wise. Why? Cause they wont dare release new heroic content that needs more cm than a hm raid. And at their current progression, that is where they are heading. So now dumb it down, time to add more stuff.</blockquote>Don't need a hate transfer if you have a dirge or coercer or both unless you have some top end geared out balls to the walls PEWPEW in there and if you do, then they can learn to dial it down a notch.

Rothrandir

09-05-2011, 01:08 AM

Its interesting to see so many people saying Ry'gorr and associated gear from Kael is enough to do Drunder content when it isn't possible to find a group that'll accept a player in that gear. Everyone doing Drunder expects you to have raid gear before they'll even consider inviting you.

Shotneedle

09-05-2011, 04:11 AM

I don't see what you people are crying about. I just zoned into Spire of Rage on my warden to take a peek, you need 210% crit chance and 120% crit mit.TOTALLY UNOBTAINABLE IN RYGORR GEAR.

Crismorn

09-05-2011, 04:14 AM

<cite>Rothrandir@Permafrost wrote:</cite><blockquote>Its interesting to see so many people saying Ry'gorr and associated gear from Kael is enough to do Drunder content when it isn't possible to find a group that'll accept a player in that gear. Everyone doing Drunder expects you to have raid gear before they'll even consider inviting you.</blockquote>Start a group and prove them wrong

Fauztin

09-05-2011, 07:44 AM

<cite>Buffrat@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>you need 210% crit chance and 120% crit mit.</blockquote>this.even my craptastic lock with gear barely better than tofs has 120cm and with some (white) adorns the 210 cc as well... so stop complainin please.only thing i hate is, that there are raid-like drops in heroic zones and you need them, because it has awesome amounts of cc on it (got the neck with 47cc yesterdays out of drunder1). i don't want to group, just to get into the next raidzone. in mixed EM/HM gear, i have 252cc, eow needs 300, pow even more...

Davngr1

09-05-2011, 10:32 PM

<cite>Nadirah@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Davngr1 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Nadirah@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote>So wait, you want to be able to get in ry'gorr gear and clear EoW that drops gear on par with some raid gear?How about.. go raid. Or ask them to put in easier instances for you to get more appropriate gear from instead of whining the ones like EoW are too hard?Ugh. NM. There's always going to be people complaining. Always.</blockquote>excuse me but who is this post directed at? because if it's in response to my post then your reading comprehension is poor to nil.casuals have no way to get the gear needed to run these zones and raiders don't want to kill heroic content for the sake of progression, period. if you don't know that then you have not been playing this game very long and no this is not a good change.</blockquote>I've been playing the game longer than you have I bet. And there is nothing wrong with needing raid gear to get into zones that give... raid gear level items.Drunder, you do not need raid gear for. If you think you do, you're running with the wrong group.</blockquote> no you haven't been playing longer than me, this is the second account i made. my first account is from o4. and i have not said anything about the zones being too hard or anything of that nature L2READ.. i said i don't like the fact that these zones are droping BETTER gear than RAID ZONES!!! is that clear now??!! i don't want to run group zones in my raid time, IT'S DUUUMMMMBBBB to break a raid force in to FOUR GROUPS for the sake of proggression.. IT MAKES NO SENSE!! do you understand?!?!?!?! dude srsly.. read what people post before you respond ffs..

Davngr1

09-05-2011, 10:33 PM

<cite>Buffrat@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>I don't see what you people are crying about. I just zoned into Spire of Rage on my warden to take a peek, you need 210% crit chance and 120% crit mit.TOTALLY UNOBTAINABLE IN RYGORR GEAR.</blockquote> for the record i'm not crying about how hard they are.. i don't like the fact that 6 man zones are now some how part of 24 man progression.. it makes absolutly no sense to me what so ever

Silzin

09-06-2011, 12:10 AM

I think the "rare loot" from the group zone is not there to introduce an alternative progression path, but its there to give raiders something to look for in the group zones. the effectiveness of this move can be debated but i think this was the reasoning for it.

Onorem

09-06-2011, 02:25 AM

And here I was thinking that is was stupid that my latest alt was seeing about 50 crit mit at lvl 79 without even getting to the JW portion of quest rewards in Kunark zones... How refreshing is it to see that the completely wasted for then itemization will be extended to be completely useless for 8 more zones once I get him to DoV. If the revamp hadn't OPd gear so much, I might be concerned about what was left off by the program in place of crit mit...Piling fail on fail doesn't make fail go away.

Hamervelder

09-06-2011, 04:51 AM

Felshades

09-06-2011, 05:08 AM

<cite>Davngr1 wrote:</cite><blockquote> no you haven't been playing longer than me, this is the second account i made. my first account is from o4. and i have not said anything about the zones being too hard or anything of that nature L2READ.. i said i don't like the fact that these zones are droping BETTER gear than RAID ZONES!!! is that clear now??!! i don't want to run group zones in my raid time, IT'S DUUUMMMMBBBB to break a raid force in to FOUR GROUPS for the sake of proggression.. IT MAKES NO SENSE!! do you understand?!?!?!?! dude srsly.. read what people post before you respond ffs..</blockquote>First off, judging by how you responded here, I'd like to think you're the dumb one. But that's just me.Second off, you don't have to run them in your raid time. Go run your raid?Third, it's NOT better than raid gear in a good part of it. The stats are itemized wrong on quite a bit of it, and the stats are being shared through two primaries in order to make them useable by more than one archetype.You don't need to break up your raid force for progression. You seem to think that you MUST do these zones during your raid time. No, you don't. Try logging in once in a while that isn't in your raid time frame. Can't? Too bad.I have read what others posted. I've read what you posted, and it's coming clear to me that you're about 12 and need a nap.Not to mention you haven't seen the Plane of War raid drops yet. THEY'RE NOT IN GAME YET. None of that is finalized, and if the EoW hard mode gear(that from what I gather, no one is doing yet) is too good, they'll nerf it. Again. Like they did with the Normal stuff.Seriously, you have your panties in a bunch wayyyy too far up there bud.

Pimmy

09-06-2011, 06:29 AM

Put Crit Mit back to all DoV and beyond herioc zones, thanks.Crit Mit is easily obtained in armors starting with Othmir quests (and after latest patch even lvl50 zones).And you can do Fortress Spire and Iceshard Keep with pretty bad groups to get upgrades. Even parts of Temple and Thrones can be done with bad groups. Bad pickup raids can even get some upgrades from ToFS x2.Rather concentrate on fixing the itemization problems in DoV and new zones.Thanks.

Leovinus

09-06-2011, 07:28 AM

<cite>Pimmy@Splitpaw wrote:</cite><blockquote>Put Crit Mit back to all DoV and beyond herioc zones, thanks.Crit Mit is easily obtained in armors starting with Othmir quests (and after latest patch even lvl50 zones).And you can do Fortress Spire and Iceshard Keep with pretty bad groups to get upgrades. Even parts of Temple and Thrones can be done with bad groups. Bad pickup raids can even get some upgrades from ToFS x2.Rather concentrate on fixing the itemization problems in DoV and new zones.Thanks.</blockquote>So you want them to spend more time putting CM requirements back in? It's done. It may be relatively pointless, but it has been done already, and it would make next to no functional difference to the player, except a very few who might somehow make it to 90 in level 80 quested gear. And really, is it worth spending that extra time to get back to the way it was to inconvenience those few?

Onorem

09-06-2011, 10:24 AM

<cite>Leovinus wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Pimmy@Splitpaw wrote:</cite><blockquote>Put Crit Mit back to all DoV and beyond herioc zones, thanks.Crit Mit is easily obtained in armors starting with Othmir quests (and after latest patch even lvl50 zones).And you can do Fortress Spire and Iceshard Keep with pretty bad groups to get upgrades. Even parts of Temple and Thrones can be done with bad groups. Bad pickup raids can even get some upgrades from ToFS x2.Rather concentrate on fixing the itemization problems in DoV and new zones.Thanks.</blockquote>So you want them to spend more time putting CM requirements back in? It's done. It may be relatively pointless, but it has been done already, and it would make next to no functional difference to the player, except a very few who might somehow make it to 90 in level 80 quested gear. And really, is it worth spending that extra time to get back to the way it was to inconvenience those few?</blockquote>It's not done. It's on test. If everything that made it to test was subject to "It's done, so leave it," test would lose half of its point...which is already small since the feedback is too often ignored. Who is inconvenienced by changes that don't happen? I'm still hoping for a time when they'll ask about ideas before they waste months on them only to find out that it's not what the players (generically) want.

Leovinus

09-06-2011, 11:44 AM

<cite>Onorem wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Leovinus wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Pimmy@Splitpaw wrote:</cite><blockquote>Put Crit Mit back to all DoV and beyond herioc zones, thanks.Crit Mit is easily obtained in armors starting with Othmir quests (and after latest patch even lvl50 zones).And you can do Fortress Spire and Iceshard Keep with pretty bad groups to get upgrades. Even parts of Temple and Thrones can be done with bad groups. Bad pickup raids can even get some upgrades from ToFS x2.Rather concentrate on fixing the itemization problems in DoV and new zones.Thanks.</blockquote>So you want them to spend more time putting CM requirements back in? It's done. It may be relatively pointless, but it has been done already, and it would make next to no functional difference to the player, except a very few who might somehow make it to 90 in level 80 quested gear. And really, is it worth spending that extra time to get back to the way it was to inconvenience those few?</blockquote>It's not done. It's on test. If everything that made it to test was subject to "It's done, so leave it," test would lose half of its point...which is already small since the feedback is too often ignored. Who is inconvenienced by changes that don't happen? I'm still hoping for a time when they'll ask about ideas before they waste months on them only to find out that it's not what the players (generically) want.</blockquote>Well, perhaps in general you're right. But the fact remains that you have the crit mit you need by running solo questlines already, or if you don't, you're not very far off. And crit mit is already quite common on gear as you're leveling after GU61 anyway, and your crit mit numbers were probaby pretty close to the minimums required for the entry level heroic zones as they stood (and stand on live). So it's very nearly a moot point. This merely opens up a few more avenues for players that are new to level cap.Actually, the more I think about it, the better this plan is. It basically creates a set of several entry points to the expansion's heroic content, instead of being forced into the regimented Solo->PQ->TOFS->Ascent/Pools ad nauseum->ISK->etc. I get this feeling that SoE is not seeing the numbers in the harder KD and in Drunder that they'd hoped on at this point, and they believe that it's a matter of access to the gear, since only having a small handful of zones available to you limits gearing potential if you have unlucky streaks, and is slowing down the playerbase more than they'd wanted.

thewarriorpoet

09-06-2011, 12:25 PM

This is a failed attempt to fix a problem that they don't appear to understand. The problem, at least to me and those around me, was never been that CM existed or was required. Like others have said, it is EASY to get enough for the heroic zones - at least now...getting ry'gorr armor was a pain when you needed its CM to get more shards (quickly), but now that the number of shards are at rock bottom and there is the threl'gor (sp?) quested stuff this is a non-issue. The problem has always been that it severly limits your choices when it comes to adornments if you are off by a bit. They shouldn't be removed from early zones they should be lowered accross the board. Critical Mitigation has always (and will continue to be) a lazy way for the devs to put entry requirements on raid content. Until they put some effort into it, this will never change or go away. Its time for them to step up, but I won't hold my breath.

Davngr1

09-06-2011, 12:46 PM

<cite>Nadirah@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Davngr1 wrote:</cite><blockquote> no you haven't been playing longer than me, this is the second account i made. my first account is from o4. and i have not said anything about the zones being too hard or anything of that nature L2READ.. i said i don't like the fact that these zones are droping BETTER gear than RAID ZONES!!! is that clear now??!! i don't want to run group zones in my raid time, IT'S DUUUMMMMBBBB to break a raid force in to FOUR GROUPS for the sake of proggression.. IT MAKES NO SENSE!! do you understand?!?!?!?! dude srsly.. read what people post before you respond ffs..</blockquote>First off, judging by how you responded here, I'd like to think you're the dumb one. But that's just me.Second off, you don't have to run them in your raid time. Go run your raid?Third, it's NOT better than raid gear in a good part of it. The stats are itemized wrong on quite a bit of it, and the stats are being shared through two primaries in order to make them useable by more than one archetype.You don't need to break up your raid force for progression. You seem to think that you MUST do these zones during your raid time. No, you don't. Try logging in once in a while that isn't in your raid time frame. Can't? Too bad.I have read what others posted. I've read what you posted, and it's coming clear to me that you're about 12 and need a nap.Not to mention you haven't seen the Plane of War raid drops yet. THEY'RE NOT IN GAME YET. None of that is finalized, and if the EoW hard mode gear(that from what I gather, no one is doing yet) is too good, they'll nerf it. Again. Like they did with the Normal stuff.Seriously, you have your panties in a bunch wayyyy too far up there bud.</blockquote> smokejumper him self said that these 6 man zones would be proggression from easy mode raid zones. you're posting non stop about the zones "not being hard" to people who don't think the zones are hard WHAT SO EVER, i NEVER once said the zone was too hard all i said the loot should NOT be better than CURRENT TIER RAID LOOT and it IS better unelss you're a morron like your self. so in short stop posting because your post are pointless everyone all ready knows that the zones aren't hard READ before you post.

Felshades

09-06-2011, 01:47 PM

How about you stop posting?What smokejumper said is that these zones are meant to be something for RAIDERS TO DO. Not necessary for progression. FOR RAIDERS TO DO LIKE MINI ONE GROUP RAIDS. He never once said the gear was required for progression.So if you don't want to log in outside raid time and run them with friends or raiders, you don't HAVE to. I used to have problems with zones that only geared raiders could do. I don't anymore. Nor do I care about whether or not I see them. You, on the other hand, have your panties in a bunch about it.Cry. More. Your tears sustain me.

Anestacia

09-06-2011, 02:45 PM

<cite>Elhonas@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Anestacia wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Artaxiel wrote:</cite><blockquote>What will irritate me is when I'm trying to do more difficult content and I'm LFM I'll get tells from the beknighted casuals whom this change caters to, who will have hissy fits that I won't take them to ToT with a crit mit of 125, because dontcha know they got the new gear and it's so easy now to do content, hurr durr. </blockquote>And what irritates me is stuck on themselves people who think they are so spectacular that they can accept or deny casual scrubs because they are so elite. If you are as wonderful as you claim, then why would you ever want to do pick ups in the first place? We hear all the time how people feel they are superior and they will only group within their own guilds. Thats 100% the thing to do and means that THOSE people are in deed actually what they claim. People like you, however, that have to pick up "scrubs" or "newbs" or "beknighted casuals (?)" just proves you arent as hot as you dream to be or wouldn't need the help of the peons. Get over yourself imo.</blockquote>The simple fact of the matter is that if you don't have enough crit mit for the zone, then you will die. Period. It has nothing to do with being "scrubs" or people being stuck on themselves. It has to do with game mechanics. It would be helpful if you understood this, before you go hurling insults at people and putting your foot in your mouth.</blockquote>I understand the crit mit mechanic perfectly, thank you. Just because I dont tend to waste my time raiding any more doesnt mean I have never raided; in your guild as a matter of fact. My point to the OP was the increasing attitude of some raiders these days has become a joke. Some of them believe because they get together with 23 other people and spend hours banging their heads on the same mobs night after night it some how makes them superior to the common player. My advice to him, and now you is, since you are so elite then just round up 5 more of those great people and go run a zone and then you never have to worry about someone dragging you down.

Davngr1

09-06-2011, 09:36 PM

<cite>Nadirah@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote>How about you stop posting?What smokejumper said is that these zones are meant to be something for RAIDERS TO DO. Not necessary for progression. FOR RAIDERS TO DO LIKE MINI ONE GROUP RAIDS. He never once said the gear was required for progression.So if you don't want to log in outside raid time and run them with friends or raiders, you don't HAVE to. I used to have problems with zones that only geared raiders could do. I don't anymore. Nor do I care about whether or not I see them. You, on the other hand, have your panties in a bunch about it.Cry. More. Your tears sustain me.</blockquote>you're the one crying like a lil punk. further more not only are you crying about peoples post but you're not even understanding what people are posting. also are you that dense? if that heroic loot is BETTER than 24 man loot then IT IS NEEDED FOR PROGRESSION.. duh... see.. it's cos it's better it's progression.. get it? progression means to PROGRESS and to PROGRESS is to GET BETTER, LIKE BETTER LOOT like the 6 man zone gear is BETTER.. it's PROGRESSION over 24 man gear.. get it? durrrr

Hamervelder

09-07-2011, 07:11 AM

<cite>Anestacia wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Elhonas@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Anestacia wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Artaxiel wrote:</cite><blockquote>What will irritate me is when I'm trying to do more difficult content and I'm LFM I'll get tells from the beknighted casuals whom this change caters to, who will have hissy fits that I won't take them to ToT with a crit mit of 125, because dontcha know they got the new gear and it's so easy now to do content, hurr durr. </blockquote>And what irritates me is stuck on themselves people who think they are so spectacular that they can accept or deny casual scrubs because they are so elite. If you are as wonderful as you claim, then why would you ever want to do pick ups in the first place? We hear all the time how people feel they are superior and they will only group within their own guilds. Thats 100% the thing to do and means that THOSE people are in deed actually what they claim. People like you, however, that have to pick up "scrubs" or "newbs" or "beknighted casuals (?)" just proves you arent as hot as you dream to be or wouldn't need the help of the peons. Get over yourself imo.</blockquote>The simple fact of the matter is that if you don't have enough crit mit for the zone, then you will die. Period. It has nothing to do with being "scrubs" or people being stuck on themselves. It has to do with game mechanics. It would be helpful if you understood this, before you go hurling insults at people and putting your foot in your mouth.</blockquote>I understand the crit mit mechanic perfectly, thank you. Just because I dont tend to waste my time raiding any more doesnt mean I have never raided; in your guild as a matter of fact. My point to the OP was the increasing attitude of some raiders these days has become a joke. Some of them believe because they get together with 23 other people and spend hours banging their heads on the same mobs night after night it some how makes them superior to the common player. My advice to him, and now you is, since you are so elite then just round up 5 more of those great people and go run a zone and then you never have to worry about someone dragging you down.</blockquote>If you've raided with Mayhem, then you know that we aren't an "elite" guild; as long as I've known the people from Mayhem, they've been the kind of guild that will help people get the gear that they need to do content, help them get enervated updates, etc. In fact, Bartbe, Varishka, Zega, Arrarik and others all spent hours upon hours helping me get gear, long before I was a member of this guild or before I had raided with Mayhem. That's just how the guild has been, as long as I've known the people here. We don't take people into the harder DoV zones too much though. Why? DoV isn't like Sentinel's Fate or older expansions were. You can't simply drag along someone who's undergeared, and let them get updates and upgrades. Zones like ToRZ, the Drunder instances, and EoW require a full group of people with the gear and the skill to succeed. Not having the required gear, or more specifically, not having enough critical mitigation, means that you will simply die, and contribute nothing to the group. Ergo, it's not about being elite, or anything similar. It's about someone not being tall enough for the ride, as it were. Nothing more.

Kruschev2086

09-07-2011, 02:58 PM

So 5 pages on this topic. While some of us (myself included) added in slightly off topic things, I do not recall much applauding of the change. I recall several saying this will just create problems down the road. And now it is live. Guess there is no reason for test server since we will be ignored and whatever they decide will go anyways.

urgthock

09-07-2011, 03:32 PM

<cite>Kruschev2086 wrote:</cite><blockquote>So 5 pages on this topic. While some of us (myself included) added in slightly off topic things, I do not recall much applauding of the change. I recall several saying this will just create problems down the road. And now it is live. Guess there is no reason for test server since we will be ignored and whatever they decide will go anyways.</blockquote>Or perhaps the total and complete feedback that Sony sees all of (and those posting in this forum do not), were more positive than negative concerning this change. Personally, I agree with those calling for the removal of crit mit requirements from Heroic zones. Let it be a raid mechanic, but it's not needed for heroic zones.

Loxus

09-07-2011, 04:52 PM

Honestly, does it really matter if they remove crit mit out of the beginning zones? Do you think that its going to screw up the game any more then it is? All of these zones are on farm status by 90% of the population already anyway. Crit mit should have never been in the heroic game... Trying to foster group building PUG's in a community by putting an entry level restriction on it (real or perceived) never made much sense anyway. People have been complaining they can't find people for groups for months now why would you leave something in that restricts the population pool, or even put it in the first place? There's already enough restrictions with level, AA amounts, and crit chance.

Felshades

09-07-2011, 04:59 PM

<cite>Davngr1 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Nadirah@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote>How about you stop posting?What smokejumper said is that these zones are meant to be something for RAIDERS TO DO. Not necessary for progression. FOR RAIDERS TO DO LIKE MINI ONE GROUP RAIDS. He never once said the gear was required for progression.So if you don't want to log in outside raid time and run them with friends or raiders, you don't HAVE to. I used to have problems with zones that only geared raiders could do. I don't anymore. Nor do I care about whether or not I see them. You, on the other hand, have your panties in a bunch about it.Cry. More. Your tears sustain me.</blockquote>you're the one crying like a lil punk. further more not only are you crying about peoples post but you're not even understanding what people are posting. also are you that dense? if that heroic loot is BETTER than 24 man loot then IT IS NEEDED FOR PROGRESSION.. duh... see.. it's cos it's better it's progression.. get it? progression means to PROGRESS and to PROGRESS is to GET BETTER, LIKE BETTER LOOT like the 6 man zone gear is BETTER.. it's PROGRESSION over 24 man gear.. get it? durrrr</blockquote>It's not needed for progression, and as I said, much of it is NOT better. You're the dense one.

Gungo

09-07-2011, 05:24 PM

This entire argument is silly. There needed to be some leeway with crit mit before you required it. And stating everyone should dothe othmir quests just to get get to do heroic content was just dumb.The way it is set up now people wont be locked out of content based on crit mit requirements and by the time these people hit zones that require crit mit they should naturally have enough crit mit to do this content.All in all that is the biggest issue with DOV forced gear requirements that do not feel natural in progression. I honestly think crit chance (maybe keep white crit chance adorns) and crit mit adorns need to be removed and content to scale naturally where you dont necesarily need a FULL set of prior tier cirt mit/chance gear to proceed to the next set.The massive jumps in crit chance and crit mit on each tier increase is unsustainable and makes it restrictive to recruit people who are not at the same level of gear progression.

Nrgy

09-07-2011, 05:46 PM

First, I believe that nobody was ever locked out of ToFS:SC/UH, CC, Pools or Ascent becasue of Crit Mit... Thats just an excuse.If people don't want to be 'Locked Out' then they HAVE to go through the gear reset from the Othmir and/or PQ. The SF gear isn't going to keep these people alive in any of the DOV content including solo content. The gear reset is the critical part in all of this not the Crit Mit requirements of Heroics. The stats that casuals have coming out of SF and TSO/Kunark are laughable. The Icy Finger mobs will roll over these people without the gear reset.Nobody will skip the gear reset of DOV quests and/or PQ and if they do the Heroics will splat them with or without Crit Mit.

KNINE

09-07-2011, 07:25 PM

<cite>Kruschev2086 wrote:</cite><blockquote>Except as they continue to release new heroic zones, you will need to be geared above launch raid zones to do those heroics. Look at Drunder. 150-160CM and you can have a halfway reasonable chance of survival. Look at Elements of War, the next in progression. 200 CM. Regular Kraytocs x4 (EM) requires how much CM to not be eaten on AEs? I know most won't try without 130, and some will go with less. With the regular ToRZ BP, and rygorr, EoW still has a buff package making it mean you will be crit on (short around 40 points of CM)</blockquote>I do Drundar at 130% CritMit as well as EOW...crit mit is so overrated on some places and it always bothers me when people say sorry we can't take you because your too low lol.. so I tell them im at 160% and then when we finish the zone I inform them of my crit mit..lots about placements/resists/etc.. no i'm not uber or an elitist.. just saying i've completed the zones with under what they say is required... i did take an inquisitor friend with 38% crit mit lol into drundar x2.. now he did die alot but it was quite low lol

Davngr1

09-07-2011, 11:18 PM

<cite>Nadirah@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Davngr1 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Nadirah@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote>How about you stop posting?What smokejumper said is that these zones are meant to be something for RAIDERS TO DO. Not necessary for progression. FOR RAIDERS TO DO LIKE MINI ONE GROUP RAIDS. He never once said the gear was required for progression.So if you don't want to log in outside raid time and run them with friends or raiders, you don't HAVE to. I used to have problems with zones that only geared raiders could do. I don't anymore. Nor do I care about whether or not I see them. You, on the other hand, have your panties in a bunch about it.Cry. More. Your tears sustain me.</blockquote>you're the one crying like a lil punk. further more not only are you crying about peoples post but you're not even understanding what people are posting. also are you that dense? if that heroic loot is BETTER than 24 man loot then IT IS NEEDED FOR PROGRESSION.. duh... see.. it's cos it's better it's progression.. get it? progression means to PROGRESS and to PROGRESS is to GET BETTER, LIKE BETTER LOOT like the 6 man zone gear is BETTER.. it's PROGRESSION over 24 man gear.. get it? durrrr</blockquote>It's not needed for progression, and as I said, much of it is NOT better. You're the dense one.</blockquote> sorry but you really need to get a clue before posting all over threads about game mechanics you CLEARLY don't grasp. i have seen the drops and MANY of the items are indeed BETTER than what drops in CURRENT 24 man content. what you don't understand is that PROGRESSION is not dictated by smokejumper or some dense nitwit. PROGRESSION is making your character BETTER ie. EQUIPING better gear, BETTER gear drops in this 6 MAN zone.. do. you. understand. the. words. that. are. coming. out. of. my. mouth? wow man.. how dootoodoo are you?one more time because you're still not quite getting it, i'm sure... BETTER = PROGRESSION smokejumper post: " this better gear is not needed for progression" but it's STILL PROGRESSION ANYWAY!

Pimmy

09-08-2011, 09:15 AM

If you dont have CritMit requirements for zone then you will have some other kind of gear related requirements, whether it be hitpoints, mitigation, resists, etc. If you dont have any requirements on heroic zones, i'll quit playing in an instant. Because there would be no progression and point in doing any zones.Crit Mit was one way of making the progression as well as Crit Chance. But totally removing Crit Mit from everything up to Iceshard Keep is just plain dumb.The words I'd use to describe this change I cannot use or I would get banned for station a valid opionion in extreme words.D U M B !SOE go make yourself a easymode PlayStation MMO and leave EQ2 alone. kk thx.

Xenxex

09-08-2011, 10:14 AM

GEARSCORE!!!!!No really progression has been borked for a while now. Crit mit while flawed was more or less enforced to seperate EM raiders from HM raiders but this all happened b/c they went the route of including 2 entirely diff versions of raids instead of keeping it as it was in SF with the ability to MAKE the mob harder through certain conditions.No, crit mit requirements do not make mobs harder, nor do the inflated amount of hit points seen on some encounters. However lame it may be its still a mechanic and its not going to be phased out(atleast not in the forseeable future). Crit mit is not hard to get, and for the zones it will be removed from it comes into the "who cares" category since most people in these zones would have the required crit mit anyways. They could remove crit mit from everything outside of raids and it wouldnt change anything at all. I dont really see why not having required crit mit in TOFS/Rime zones has sparked such agnst but what is really the problem with easy zones being easier and giving crit mit gear to be used in Kael-->Drunder zones?

Fitz

09-08-2011, 03:47 PM

I'm going to add my two cents. The concept that heroic items can be better than easy mode raid gear is not new. I remember running SR and Vig ad nauseum for drops on my raider, and they were useful. I knew countless tanks who combined procs from raids with procs from heroic zones. The necklace from VigX2 was better than EM drops, as were the scout weapons. Having great drops in heroic zones is not a hindrance to raid forces. All you raiders who say it's silly can swallow your pride already. Are you jealous that a heroic player got a great rare drop? Ok, really? Now move on. It gives raiders a reason to do heroic content again, which I welcome. As a raider, I had zero reason to run heroic content for the longest time... ...then EOW came out, and I have something to do. That and HM Zek, of course. I do agree that an adjustment needs to be made, and that's changing the drunder armor. By the time you can farm enough stupid shards from those three zones, you deserve great armor. I'd have no issue with seeing that armor equivalent to EM raid content (or Drunder X2), simply for how obnoxious it is to get. We need balance, but nerfing content is silly.