Time to allow ALL classes to be good or evil aligned [Archive]

Oxie

08-26-2011, 02:17 PM

Swashbucklers, brigands, paladins, shadowknights, mystics, defilers, conjurors, and necromancers should be allowed to be good or evil aligned...like all the other classes. Now that the god pets share the same stats, some classes do not get to benefit from the altar-based miracles and blessings. Don't tell me to go exile. Don't tell me it will mess up your roleplay.

GussJr

08-26-2011, 02:19 PM

<cite>Ruckus@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote>Swashbucklers, brigands, paladins, shadowknights, mystics, defilers, conjurors, and necromancers should be allowed to be good or evil aligned...like all the other classes. Now that the god pets share the same stats, some classes do not get to benefit from the altar-based miracles and blessings. Don't tell me to go exile. Don't tell me it will mess up your roleplay.</blockquote>No...because it will mess with lore...If you want to be good or evil alligned, then betray...

Gungo

08-26-2011, 03:20 PM

<cite>GussJr wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Ruckus@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote>Swashbucklers, brigands, paladins, shadowknights, mystics, defilers, conjurors, and necromancers should be allowed to be good or evil aligned...like all the other classes. Now that the god pets share the same stats, some classes do not get to benefit from the altar-based miracles and blessings. Don't tell me to go exile. Don't tell me it will mess up your roleplay.</blockquote>No...because it will mess with lore...If you want to be good or evil alligned, then betray...</blockquote>Technically the necros in Sentinals fate were good and i dont see how a conjuror cant be evil especially since mirgul was a conjuror.Swashbuckler and brigands dont have any lore stating good or evil. Mystic and defiler dont really either. The only classes in game with any strong lore for good vs evil is paladin and shadowknights since lucan is the only known evil paladin. And paladins were excommunicated from freeport because they were to good.So I say make all classes but crusaders neutral and let the roleplayers keep the paladin vs shadowknight debate going.

Oxie

08-26-2011, 03:31 PM

<cite>GussJr wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Ruckus@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote>Swashbucklers, brigands, paladins, shadowknights, mystics, defilers, conjurors, and necromancers should be allowed to be good or evil aligned...like all the other classes. Now that the god pets share the same stats, some classes do not get to benefit from the altar-based miracles and blessings. Don't tell me to go exile. Don't tell me it will mess up your roleplay.</blockquote>No...because it will mess with lore...If you want to be good or evil alligned, then betray...</blockquote>So just because I want to be evil on my swashbuckler to benefit from the evil gods blessings/miracles, then I have to follow your rules of lore? You mean to tell me that it's ok to be a good bruiser now and an evil monk? It's ok to be a good assassin and an evil ranger? It's ok to be an evil templar and a good inquisitor? Yet, an evil swashbuckler and a good brigand just doesn't jive in your Golden Book of Lore Code and Ethics?But hey, your level 90 ranger can move to Freeport and benefit from the evil aligned gods, so that means my swashbuckler can't do the same because of your dictating that LORE > everything else...gee, that sounds fair and balanced. Lore quickly went out the window in this game when they allowed good and evil people to join the same guild on non-pvp servers.If people do not want to betray their paladins to an evil city and they want to keep on fighting for truth and light, then by all means, they can stay in Qeynos, Kelethin, or New Halas and roleplay that to their heart's content. Just don't limit me by forcing me to stay good or cause me to go exile and then lose the benefits of having a city.

Kynre

08-26-2011, 06:25 PM

Pretty soon with all the complaining, I think they should turn it back to EQ1 days...Only certain races can be certain classes... i.e. Monk could only be human or Iksar...

Cusashorn

08-26-2011, 06:37 PM

<cite>Gungo@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>GussJr wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Ruckus@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote>Swashbucklers, brigands, paladins, shadowknights, mystics, defilers, conjurors, and necromancers should be allowed to be good or evil aligned...like all the other classes. Now that the god pets share the same stats, some classes do not get to benefit from the altar-based miracles and blessings. Don't tell me to go exile. Don't tell me it will mess up your roleplay.</blockquote>No...because it will mess with lore...If you want to be good or evil alligned, then betray...</blockquote>Technically the necros in Sentinals fate were good and i dont see how a conjuror cant be evil especially since mirgul was a conjuror.Gray and gray morality. Dedicating scientific research to necromancy makes it a neutral field for that specific culture only.. doesn't make it good for them or for the rest of the world. It just makes it acceptable to study for them only. Also, Miragul was also a sorcerer and enchanter. He was a master of all studied fields of magic in Erudin and Paineel. However, you do make a point that there is genuinely no actual reason why conjurers cannot be evil, especially since the Mage class was found among both sides in EQlive. Summoning elementals shouldn't be restricted to good, but summoning the dead SHOULD be restricted to evil.Swashbuckler and brigands dont have any lore stating good or evil.Except one is the rob from the rich, give to the poor variety, and the other is rob from everyone, give to themselves, gut you with a knife, take all your stuff, and leave you for dead without giving a 2nd thought regardless of the circumstances variety.Mystic and defiler dont really either.Really? There's nothing evil about malevolently enslaving, coercing, and torturing spirits to do your bidding? Not even the slightest bit? Mystics merely ask for assistance and respect the help they recieve.The only classes in game with any strong lore for good vs evil is paladin and shadowknights since lucan is the only known evil paladin. And paladins were excommunicated from freeport because they were to good.Lucan isn't a paladin anymore. He had his powers stripped away from him by Mithanial Marr himself.So I say make all classes but crusaders neutral and let the roleplayers keep the paladin vs shadowknight debate going.</blockquote>

Lera

08-26-2011, 11:20 PM

<cite>Ruckus@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote>So just because I want to be evil on my swashbuckler to benefit from the evil gods blessings/miracles, then I have to follow your rules of lore? You mean to tell me that it's ok to be a good bruiser now and an evil monk? It's ok to be a good assassin and an evil ranger? It's ok to be an evil templar and a good inquisitor? Yet, an evil swashbuckler and a good brigand just doesn't jive in your Golden Book of Lore Code and Ethics?</blockquote>What they need to do is put the restrictions back, rather than water them down even further with even stupider things like evil paladins. And, yes, I liked when you couldn't buy stuff on the broker from the other city. You had to seek out the fence. There's more to the game than just "kill things and take their stuff", and if we're going to have good and evil cities, then there need to be restrictions.Kynre <cite>wrote:</cite><blockquote>Pretty soon with all the complaining, I think they should turn it back to EQ1 days...Only certain races can be certain classes... i.e. Monk could only be human or Iksar...</blockquote>No. Just no. This is why I don't play EQ1, and if they do this in EQNext, I probably won't play it. Restricting class alignments makes sense; restricting racial alignments does not.

Lodrelhai

08-27-2011, 07:02 AM

<cite>Cusashorn wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Gungo@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>GussJr wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Ruckus@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote>Swashbucklers, brigands, paladins, shadowknights, mystics, defilers, conjurors, and necromancers should be allowed to be good or evil aligned...like all the other classes. Now that the god pets share the same stats, some classes do not get to benefit from the altar-based miracles and blessings. Don't tell me to go exile. Don't tell me it will mess up your roleplay.</blockquote>No...because it will mess with lore...If you want to be good or evil alligned, then betray...</blockquote>Technically the necros in Sentinals fate were good and i dont see how a conjuror cant be evil especially since mirgul was a conjuror.Gray and gray morality. Dedicating scientific research to necromancy makes it a neutral field for that specific culture only.. doesn't make it good for them or for the rest of the world. It just makes it acceptable to study for them only. Also, Miragul was also a sorcerer and enchanter. He was a master of all studied fields of magic in Erudin and Paineel. However, you do make a point that there is genuinely no actual reason why conjurers cannot be evil, especially since the Mage class was found among both sides in EQlive. Summoning elementals shouldn't be restricted to good, but summoning the dead SHOULD be restricted to evil.Swashbuckler and brigands dont have any lore stating good or evil.Except one is the rob from the rich, give to the poor variety, and the other is rob from everyone, give to themselves, gut you with a knife, take all your stuff, and leave you for dead without giving a 2nd thought regardless of the circumstances variety.Mystic and defiler dont really either.Really? There's nothing evil about malevolently enslaving, coercing, and torturing spirits to do your bidding? Not even the slightest bit? Mystics merely ask for assistance and respect the help they recieve.The only classes in game with any strong lore for good vs evil is paladin and shadowknights since lucan is the only known evil paladin. And paladins were excommunicated from freeport because they were to good.Lucan isn't a paladin anymore. He had his powers stripped away from him by Mithanial Marr himself.So I say make all classes but crusaders neutral and let the roleplayers keep the paladin vs shadowknight debate going.</blockquote></blockquote>1. The reasoning of that culture can easily be the reasoning of any group or individual. Qeynos, Kelethin, and New Halas have no problem working with Paineel, which really cuts into their argument that necromancy is evil and horrid and unacceptable. A necromancer can be just as polite and respectful to the spirits they raise as a conjuror is to their elementals. And using old bones and flesh of dead people need not be any different than using the same from dead animals - it's not like the person who originally owned them needs to use them anymore.2. A swashbuckler is a swordsman, and a brigand is a plunderer. Technically every single character in the game qualifies as the latter, given we all go killing other creatures and taking their stuff. Pirate and privateer have more distinction than swashbuckler and brigand, and for the most part that distinction was who's letter of marques the individual had.3. Just where is it specified that defilers must enslave, coerce, and torment the spirits they work with? They can't simply work with spirits of decay, disease, poison, etc? Only spirits of health are willing to work with a mortal, either for mutual ends or because they happen to like the mortal?Lore can be adapted for *anything,* because each character is an individual and individuals can adapt to anything. They can have whatever reasons they like for doing what they do. I've been in tabletop games where it was allowed because they defined "palidin" as holy warrior, and you could be a holy warrior in service to an evil god; shadowknights were warriors who knew sorcery.

Wurm

08-27-2011, 07:46 AM

No such thing as an "Evil" Paladin.

Caethre

08-27-2011, 10:56 AM

<cite>Ruckus@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote>Swashbucklers, brigands, paladins, shadowknights, mystics, defilers, conjurors, and necromancers should be allowed to be good or evil aligned...like all the other classes.</blockquote>(( I've seen all sorts of garbage on these forums over the years. But congratulations, you just came up with quite simply the most stupid suggestion I have ever heard.Good aligned shadowknights and necromancers? Evil aligned paladins? You do know what those concepts MEAN don't you? No, probably not.Look, if you do not like roleplaying games, don't play them, go play counterstrike or something.Now, I wait for the post where someone complains that water is wet....&nbsp<img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />)

Gungo

08-27-2011, 11:47 AM

<cite>Cusashorn wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Gungo@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote>Technically the necros in Sentinals fate were good and i dont see how a conjuror cant be evil especially since mirgul was a conjuror.Gray and gray morality. Dedicating scientific research to necromancy makes it a neutral field for that specific culture only.. doesn't make it good for them or for the rest of the world. It just makes it acceptable to study for them only. Also, Miragul was also a sorcerer and enchanter. He was a master of all studied fields of magic in Erudin and Paineel. However, you do make a point that there is genuinely no actual reason why conjurers cannot be evil, especially since the Mage class was found among both sides in EQlive. Summoning elementals shouldn't be restricted to good, but summoning the dead SHOULD be restricted to evil.Swashbuckler and brigands dont have any lore stating good or evil.Except one is the rob from the rich, give to the poor variety, and the other is rob from everyone, give to themselves, gut you with a knife, take all your stuff, and leave you for dead without giving a 2nd thought regardless of the circumstances variety.Mystic and defiler dont really either.Really? There's nothing evil about malevolently enslaving, coercing, and torturing spirits to do your bidding? Not even the slightest bit? Mystics merely ask for assistance and respect the help they recieve.The only classes in game with any strong lore for good vs evil is paladin and shadowknights since lucan is the only known evil paladin. And paladins were excommunicated from freeport because they were to good.Lucan isn't a paladin anymore. He had his powers stripped away from him by Mithanial Marr himself.So I say make all classes but crusaders neutral and let the roleplayers keep the paladin vs shadowknight debate going.</blockquote></blockquote>You have a big problem with trying to make your opinions lore when it has nothing to do with fact. My point was necros are strictly NOT evil and conjurors are NOT good and hence lore has no barring on limiting them. Your opinion on swashbucklers is your own. It has nothing in game to support. swashbucklers by eq2 definition are PIRATES and brigands are thieves. That is the eq2 lore. PIRATES are sea based thieves. Brigands are land based theives. EQ2 lore has nothing to do with rich vs poor. again your opinion is NOT lore.Mystic and Defilers have varying storys. Old eq2 class descriptions which dont exist anymore said defilers enslaved spirits and mystics communed with them. IN GAME LORE based on epic story lines stats defilers work with the spirits of decay, disease, and death.LUCAN has PALADIN buffs in GAME. And I have never read any LORE stating anything about mithnial marr stripped lucan of his power in fact we have NO LORE on LUCAN's history at all on how he became immortal, a lich and if he is still a paladin or is he now a shadowknight. BUT like i said before in EQ2 paladins are excommunicated from freeport so there is LORE stating that paladins are not allowed in freeport and are technically good only.Again YOUR OPINION is not lore. I am talking about ACTUAL DEV CONFIRMED, GAME RELATED LORE. NOT CUSA MADE UP FACTS.

Talathion

08-27-2011, 12:41 PM

err...Lucan is a shadowknight but only him and his statue have paladin buffs, but if you don't worship marr you can't really get divine power, so if your an evil paladin, reset all your divine damage to 0.

Cusashorn

08-27-2011, 12:50 PM

The lore explaining how Mithanial Marr stripped Lucan of his powers was told by an NPC in North Freeport as part of the paladin epic back in Eqlive... And yes, his STATUE having a paladin buff doesn't mean that he's a paladin. Also, I'd like to see where the "Old EQ2 class descriptions" were officially retconned out of existence by the developers.

Oxie

08-27-2011, 01:27 PM

<cite>Felishanna@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Ruckus@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote>Swashbucklers, brigands, paladins, shadowknights, mystics, defilers, conjurors, and necromancers should be allowed to be good or evil aligned...like all the other classes.</blockquote>(( I've seen all sorts of garbage on these forums over the years. But congratulations, you just came up with quite simply the most stupid suggestion I have ever heard.Good aligned shadowknights and necromancers? Evil aligned paladins? You do know what those concepts MEAN don't you? No, probably not.Look, if you do not like roleplaying games, don't play them, go play counterstrike or something.Now, I wait for the post where someone complains that water is wet.... <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" />)</blockquote>Thanks for the insult. I'm not stupid and my opinions are valid, just like you think your opinions are...I do not play EQ2 to roleplay like you obviously do with your use of ((out of character typing)). You may role play all you want, but don't force your playstyle on to mine. I play this game to raid, and my swashbuckler is at a disadvantage because I cannot remain in Qeynos and get an evil god that is better for my playstyle. Didn't I mention that I do not want to go exile so I could get the ability to get access to the evil god of my choice? Yeah, I did and you called my opinion stupid. I also mentioned not to bring up how my suggestion would mess up your role play, but you had to come into my thread and stir that up, too. Again by insulting me.You can manage to explain shadowknights, paladins, necromancers, and defilers.Now, try to explain to me how an assassin can be considered GOOD and a swashbuckler cannot even be considered evil. Just the word "assassin" to me sounds way more evil than a swashbuckler. A monk can also be viewed similar to a paladin, yet now monks can be evil. A bruiser sounds evil to me, but oh wait, they can go to a good city now. Hang on, rangers...I see them as being one with Mother Nature and animals, but nope, they can be evil now. Explain the formerly good templars with the formerly evil inquistors, and now both can pick evil or good.If you have access to the booklet that came in the boxed version of original content of EQ2, read pages 26-39. You'll see class descriptions on how the classes were originally described.Bruisers: powerful thugs who pummel and their bodies are brutal damaging weapons. Good cities like thugs now, but something like Shady Swashbuckler is not at all evil...Shady's on the Nek docks, not the TS docks.Monks: disciplined in martial arts who hone their bodies to deliver clean attacks. A calm and serene monk is ok in an evil city. They can fist bump with a bruiser now and be bros.Wizards: arcane arts with elemental forces of fire and ice. Sounds neutral to me, yet a warlock sounds way evil...Warlocks: poison and disease that give great pain and suffering without remorse. (And back at launch, warlocks and wizards could come from either city.) Dunno this sounds to be evil like a shadowknight, so why are they able to be in Qeynos at all?Templars: faithful servants of the divine who use their benevolent powers to aid their fellow adventurers. Mend wounds, purge illness, and relieve the suffering to the afflicted. But now they can go to Freeport with all that goodness to smite something.Inquisitors: zealots who are relentlessly advancing their religous doctrines and accept no compromises in their beliefs. They are skilled healers and minister to the body while seizing control OF THE SOUL. They can now tralala to any good city and do all soul seizing to the goodies.Wardens: protectors, defenders of wildlife. Nature, mend wounds, purge ailments that afflict their allies. Both druid classes could be good or evil at launch.Furies: harness powers of storms and tap into ferocity of nature. They command feral spirits. Sounds more angry to me compared to a tree hugging warden.Swashbucklers: dashing and charming their way into your confidence, while secretly loosening your purse strings. Known to brag, and are dangerously cunning and should not be underestimated. Oh look, a swashy can pretty much be two faced and steal you blind. Why would anyone good want to advocate this sort of a person within their city walls?Brigands: bloodthirsty highwaymen who will backstab anyone when it suits their purposes. Unpredictable and arouse fear and confusion in their adversaries. Yeah, I guess a good city wouldn't want this type of person in. They'll keep the pickpocketing and two faced swashbuckler around versus having a dirty brigand around.Troubadours: bolster abilities with their songs and inspire courage on the battlefield. They use their musical powers to wreak havoc, yet they were neutral at launch. Havoc is ok in a good city, I guess, huh?Dirges: singers of angry songs and laments. Use the power of cacophony to subdue their enemies. Their songs of rage inspire the fury of battle in their allies. Rage is ok in a good city, too!Rangers: natural outdoorsmen and masters of stealthy movement. Uh oh...sounds kinda shifty to me, but they can be evil now and put that cunning to good use now for the Overlord.Assassins: cruel mercenaries who ruthlessly stalk their prey. Yeah, good cities have need of the cruel and ruthless. Heck, why not let in a shadowknight and defiler, too? They seem kind of cruel and ruthless to me. If assassins can get into a good city, why not everyone else?Boy, I'm so glad I kept this book, so I could use it 7 years later to use SOE's "vision" of the character classes to prove my stupid points and stupid opinions.Just as you can explain away shadowknights and paladins, I can counter back with my own opinion on other classes that should not be allowed to be from either good or evil cities. But since my opinions on this matter are just plain stupid, I might was well just stop thinking and go off to be a mindless raider in some game that is not the same as yours, so we don't have to cross paths ever again because I'll somehow manage to upset your roleplay! I'm sure SOE would love to lose yet another subscriber who has played since launch, just to keep you from having to read my opinions.

Morghus

08-27-2011, 03:39 PM

I'd have to agree with the OP. Good and evil tend to be hamfisted definitions, that often veer into being campy, in their strides to broadly define absolutes, when people tend to be more complex than that.I could very easily think of how there can be good or evil members of such classes, and just because you cannot does not mean they are invalid.In fact, I think one of the best examples of an evil paladin would be Lord Seru from everquest lore. He was a racist, militaristic egomaniac and chief paladin of Mithaniel Marr during the height of the combine empire.

Elf_Queen

08-27-2011, 04:32 PM

Yeah I think it's time they just made it all/all .. I really think there can be "light and dark sides" to any class, regardless of the city they live in.. Plus most people do NOT roleplay and if you do choose to roleplay you do not have to pick the side you believe is wrong. They are already heading in that direction with assassins and inquisitors and monks etc so I dont see any point of further restricting the other classes either.

Cusashorn

08-27-2011, 05:27 PM

<cite>Morghus@Butcherblock wrote:</cite><blockquote>I'd have to agree with the OP. Good and evil tend to be hamfisted definitions, that often veer into being campy, in their strides to broadly define absolutes, when people tend to be more complex than that.I could very easily think of how there can be good or evil members of such classes, and just because you cannot does not mean they are invalid.In fact, I think one of the best examples of an evil paladin would be Lord Seru from everquest lore. He was a racist, militaristic egomaniac and chief paladin of Mithaniel Marr during the height of the combine empire.</blockquote>Discriminating against commonly known evil races such as Dark Elves, Ogres, and Trolls doesn't make you evil yourself. He was a knight templar who ruled over a totalitarian dictatorship, but being overly protective and living life by a very strict defined set of rules doesn't make you evil.Remember, this is still Norrath that you are entering into. Back in EQlive, the game's slogan used to be "You're in OUR world now." You had to play the game according to how the races and classes were set up, defined by the game's setting and lore. There was no betrayal systems that let you decide if you wanted to be good or evil, there was only a faction system that let you earn trust with others.Even though EQ2 decided to go with a Race All Class All system, the game is still clearly defined by the setting of the world and the lore, not by what the players want. Yeah, over in Odus, there is a society who only recently decided to dedicate scientific study to Necromancy instead of using it for malevolent purposes, but that doesn't mean that suddently the societies in Qeynos, Kelethin, and New Halas have to change their views about it after hundreds of years of thinking as such.If this game was designed right from the very start for literally play the game any way that the player wants, this wouldn't be an issue, and this game was designed with a very specific set of rules in mind, and there are some things that just aren't going to be changed.The developers wanted players to get involved with the game world, but all they get now are people just want to get involved with getting better gear so they can keep being the best.If you want to play an evil swashbuckler just so you can use an evil diety (which I don't find to be a great excuse to be, considering that diety buffs only provide very temporary benefits that require an hour to resuse), then go play on the PVP servers. They made all classes available to both sides because it was necissary for both sides to continue raiding with the necessary requirements.

Felshades

08-27-2011, 05:36 PM

<cite>Ruckus@Unrest_old wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>GussJr wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Ruckus@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote>Swashbucklers, brigands, paladins, shadowknights, mystics, defilers, conjurors, and necromancers should be allowed to be good or evil aligned...like all the other classes. Now that the god pets share the same stats, some classes do not get to benefit from the altar-based miracles and blessings. Don't tell me to go exile. Don't tell me it will mess up your roleplay.</blockquote>No...because it will mess with lore...If you want to be good or evil alligned, then betray...</blockquote>So just because I want to be evil on my swashbuckler to benefit from the evil gods blessings/miracles, then I have to follow your rules of lore? You mean to tell me that it's ok to be a good bruiser now and an evil monk? It's ok to be a good assassin and an evil ranger? It's ok to be an evil templar and a good inquisitor? Yet, an evil swashbuckler and a good brigand just doesn't jive in your Golden Book of Lore Code and Ethics?But hey, your level 90 ranger can move to Freeport and benefit from the evil aligned gods, so that means my swashbuckler can't do the same because of your dictating that LORE > everything else...gee, that sounds fair and balanced. Lore quickly went out the window in this game when they allowed good and evil people to join the same guild on non-pvp servers.If people do not want to betray their paladins to an evil city and they want to keep on fighting for truth and light, then by all means, they can stay in Qeynos, Kelethin, or New Halas and roleplay that to their heart's content. Just don't limit me by forcing me to stay good or cause me to go exile and then lose the benefits of having a city.</blockquote>The only reason you want them to change it is so that you can get god blessings. Dumbest. Reason. Ever.

Geothe

08-27-2011, 06:44 PM

The "LORE" excuse is completely laughable.It would hold a bit of validity if SoE hadn't already ignored the "LORE" already when it comes to classes.GOOD-aligned assassins?Good Bruisers?EVIL monks?Neutral rogues make a lot more "lore" sense than neutral brawlers and preditors by a looooooong shot.So, yeah. "LORE" holds no validity as a reason not to allow any class for any faction being as SoE has already sunk that ship.

Cusashorn

08-27-2011, 07:26 PM

<cite>Geothe wrote:</cite><blockquote>The "LORE" excuse is completely laughable.It would hold a bit of validity if SoE hadn't already ignored the "LORE" already when it comes to classes.GOOD-aligned assassins?Good Bruisers?EVIL monks?Neutral rogues make a lot more "lore" sense than neutral brawlers and preditors by a looooooong shot.So, yeah. "LORE" holds no validity as a reason not to allow any class for any faction being as SoE has already sunk that ship.</blockquote>The Swiftscale Caste of Iksar Monks have always been evil monks. Order and Chaos, Good and Evil, they all overlap. Monks can be Lawful Evil in Dungeons and Dragons, just as the Swifttails are Lawful Evil in EverQuest. Monks are orderly and disciplined, not strictly good.Try reading the explanations given for the classes becoming neutral. Most of them actually make sense.The bruisers in Qeynos were allowed to form because a few individuals wanted to start practicing their strength at the Silent Fist Dojo. One of the more experienced monks laughed at the idea and was promptly knocked out in one punch. The headmaster allowed them to form their own order because he respected the bruiser's strength, and scolded the monk who forgot to keep an open mind towards the practices of others.The Inquisitors in Qeynos are Combat Medics, plain and simple.The Swifttail Caste was sent from Kunark to Freeport in order to spread their teachings to it's citizens and learn more about Freeport by order of Emperor Rile. They're still monks, who train rigorously and observe order. They're just not very nice about it.The Academy of Arcane Sciences for whatever reason, locked away all the studies about illusions and phantasmagoria, but eventually decided there was no reason why illusionists couldn't train there.The Red Hoods are rangers who were betrayed by the Green Hoods and decided to form their own order in Freeport, where they'd be more respected. They're Chaotic RangersThe Assassins in Qeynos admit they don't like doing what they do, but have to do it in order to keep certain political situations from getting out of hand.

Oxie

08-27-2011, 07:27 PM

<cite>Nadirah@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Ruckus@Unrest_old wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>GussJr wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Ruckus@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote>Swashbucklers, brigands, paladins, shadowknights, mystics, defilers, conjurors, and necromancers should be allowed to be good or evil aligned...like all the other classes. Now that the god pets share the same stats, some classes do not get to benefit from the altar-based miracles and blessings. Don't tell me to go exile. Don't tell me it will mess up your roleplay.</blockquote>No...because it will mess with lore...If you want to be good or evil alligned, then betray...</blockquote>So just because I want to be evil on my swashbuckler to benefit from the evil gods blessings/miracles, then I have to follow your rules of lore? You mean to tell me that it's ok to be a good bruiser now and an evil monk? It's ok to be a good assassin and an evil ranger? It's ok to be an evil templar and a good inquisitor? Yet, an evil swashbuckler and a good brigand just doesn't jive in your Golden Book of Lore Code and Ethics?But hey, your level 90 ranger can move to Freeport and benefit from the evil aligned gods, so that means my swashbuckler can't do the same because of your dictating that LORE > everything else...gee, that sounds fair and balanced. Lore quickly went out the window in this game when they allowed good and evil people to join the same guild on non-pvp servers.If people do not want to betray their paladins to an evil city and they want to keep on fighting for truth and light, then by all means, they can stay in Qeynos, Kelethin, or New Halas and roleplay that to their heart's content. Just don't limit me by forcing me to stay good or cause me to go exile and then lose the benefits of having a city.</blockquote>The only reason you want them to change it is so that you can get god blessings. Dumbest. Reason. Ever.</blockquote>I could argue back that the reason people who don't want the change is because it will mess up their role playing or mess up their vision of the lore is the dumbest.reason.ever. Depends on how you look at it.I have a brigand alt and his only purpose is to do evil side world events. I hate playing a brigand, and I'd rather turn him into a swashbuckler, but make him good. It's easier for me to do those world event quests by playing a class that I know versus one that I play every few months. I'd then take this ex-brigand/now swashbuckler and make him good so he can do good city world events that Ruckus always does. I'd then move Ruckus to an evil city and stay a swashbuckler to do evil city world events and still raid on Ruckus with an evil god. I'd also like to do evil city-based quests, so I can up my quest count on Ruckus. Yes, people who raid do do quests (I almost have 4000 quests done.)I'm just curious why people are so riled up on my suggestion. Nobody said diddly when SOE changed templars/inquisitors, rangers/assassins, bruisers/monks, and coercers/illusionsits. Yet, if you read my previous posts, I pointed out all types of errors in regards to good inquisitors, good assassins, and good bruisers.*edited for clarity*

the_snare

08-27-2011, 07:33 PM

What about all RACES good or evil aligned (or neutral) I mean, isn't it racist to assume that all ogres, dark elves and others are evil? <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" /> I had to betray just because I wanted an Ogre.

Cusashorn

08-27-2011, 07:34 PM

<cite>Ruckus@Unrest_old wrote:</cite><blockquote>I'm just curious why people are so riled up on my suggestion. Nobody said diddly when SOE changed templars/inquisitors, rangers/assassins, bruisers/monks, and coercers/illusionsits. Yet, if you read my previous posts, I pointed out all types of errors in regards to good inquisitors, good assassins, and good bruisers.</blockquote>Actually, I wasn't happy at all about that at all, but then I read the actual explanations they gave them, and now I'm OK with it because it made sense. However, just because of how the game operates, each archetype has to have 1 class combo that will forever be strictly split between good and evil.Necromancers, Brigands, Defilers, and Shadowknights are all strictly and always evil, even if swashbucklers, conjurers, and mystics aren't always good. They have to be though, because that's how the game is made.

Mezaka

08-27-2011, 07:34 PM

I think that the real issue here is more that the deities/blessings/miracles/pets that we currently have need a major overhaul.Take Tunare for example. Back when different stats meant different effects for your class, having the +wis, +int, +sta, and +agi actually meant something. Now, as a plate healer, two of those stats are completely meaningless.As the game has evolved, this is something that has not evolved to keep up with the current situation of classes, alignments, stats, and even now gear. Some deities are clearly better for certain classes than others, and IMHO, they should be balanced in such a way so that one alignment doesn't have the edge over another.Also, as for making a request to change things, how is this not any less valid than some of the other changes in the past that people have poo-poo'ed as being 'the dumbest change ever?'We have Beastlords coming in November.We have Epic weapons.We have PvP servers, RP servers, and exchange servers.We have a quest now that allows Arasai and Fae to fly.Some access quests removed to allow an easier time to access some zones expansions ago.At one time, all of these were all touted as being 'dumb requests,' and yet, here they are.Just my 2 Cu. Your opinions will certainly vary.--Mez

Oxie

08-27-2011, 07:45 PM

<cite>Cusashorn wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Morghus@Butcherblock wrote:</cite><blockquote>I'd have to agree with the OP. Good and evil tend to be hamfisted definitions, that often veer into being campy, in their strides to broadly define absolutes, when people tend to be more complex than that.I could very easily think of how there can be good or evil members of such classes, and just because you cannot does not mean they are invalid.In fact, I think one of the best examples of an evil paladin would be Lord Seru from everquest lore. He was a racist, militaristic egomaniac and chief paladin of Mithaniel Marr during the height of the combine empire.</blockquote>Remember, this is still Norrath that you are entering into. Back in EQlive, the game's slogan used to be "You're in OUR world now." You had to play the game according to how the races and classes were set up, defined by the game's setting and lore. There was no betrayal systems that let you decide if you wanted to be good or evil, there was only a faction system that let you earn trust with others.If you want to play an evil swashbuckler just so you can use an evil diety (which I don't find to be a great excuse to be, considering that diety buffs only provide very temporary benefits that require an hour to resuse), then go play on the PVP servers. They made all classes available to both sides because it was necissary for both sides to continue raiding with the necessary requirements.</blockquote>Yeah, I know what it was like in EQ1. I rolled a Freeport-based rogue, but I could have easily rolled one from Qeynos, Kaladim, or Neriak. When I started EQ2, all my friends were starting from Qeynos, so I rolled a rogue from that city. I'm glad I ended up with the class I have now, because I hate the brigand playstyle compared to the swashbuckler one. I've played this guy since launch, and I'm comfortable with the class. This swashbuckler is my only level 90 adventuring character (I have 6 crafters to 90 though) and I've played him for 631 days and he has nearly 80 million status. It's not like I'm some EQ1/EQ2 newb who just picked up the game last week. Heck, I still have the commemorative Qeynos coin in the bank vault.So why should I have to change my playstyle? I hate PVP and I know that I'm not very good at it. Why should I have to move off of a server that I have been on since launch? I have friends here and I like the people that I raid with and our raids nights that balance out well with my work schedule.Besides, you said you were going to quit EQ2 just the other day, so why does it matter to you at all now with what happens to the game/lore?

Oxie

08-27-2011, 07:55 PM

<cite>the_snare wrote:</cite><blockquote>What about all RACES good or evil aligned (or neutral) I mean, isn't it racist to assume that all ogres, dark elves and others are evil? <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" /> I had to betray just because I wanted an Ogre.</blockquote>I'd be fine with that, too. Heck, they just made ratongas neutral, and like you said, any non-neutral race can betray to a city if they want to do so...it's up to the person behind the toon.Like I said before, this whole good vs. evil made no sense to me when the game launched, especially when guilds formed up with both Freeport and Qeynos citizens (on non pvp servers.) Then little things started to change over time, until now it is more like the collective "us" (both good and evil characters joined together) versus the NPCs that attack us.This game is FAR from the way they have the Guardians and Defiants in Rift. You can't buy from the other side's brokers. You can't group with the other 3 races from the other side. You can't guild with the the other 3 races. All you can do is /say to communicate with them. Each "side" even have their own chat channels...and this is on the non-pvp servers. You also can't roll dwarf on the Guardian side (for example) and betray him to become a Defiant. It's a Gods (Guardian) versus Technology (Defiant) battle, and not Good versus Evil battle. In the end both sides are battling the same thing, just like we are here in EQ2...the NPCs.

Oxie

08-27-2011, 08:06 PM

<cite>Cusashorn wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Ruckus@Unrest_old wrote:</cite><blockquote>I'm just curious why people are so riled up on my suggestion. Nobody said diddly when SOE changed templars/inquisitors, rangers/assassins, bruisers/monks, and coercers/illusionsits. Yet, if you read my previous posts, I pointed out all types of errors in regards to good inquisitors, good assassins, and good bruisers.</blockquote>Actually, I wasn't happy at all about that at all, but then I read the actual explanations they gave them, and now I'm OK with it because it made sense. However, just because of how the game operates, each archetype has to have 1 class combo that will forever be strictly split between good and evil.Necromancers, Brigands, Defilers, and Shadowknights are all strictly and always evil, even if swashbucklers, conjurers, and mystics aren't always good. They have to be though, because that's how the game is made.</blockquote>If SOE was able to come up with realistic explanations for the first 8 classes that they changed, and their explanations were good enough to soothe your riled brow, they perhaps they might be able to do do that with the other 8 classes? Yes, I admit that the shadowknight/paladin explanation might be a one doozy of a tale to spin, but I honestly couldn't be bothered enough to care about the story. I've played with a dark elf shadowknight who betrayed to a paladin, and the only thing that mattered to me was that he kept aggro and knew how to place the mobs so I could backstab and not had to wedge myself between the wall and the mob's backside.I do not see how changing all classes to being neutral will mess up how the game operates or how it will mess up how the game is made. It won't screw up coding that will mess up the servers and cause major huge bugs/lag in the game. If they can change the first 8 classes they can do the same with the last 8 classes.And how will adding a brand new class (beastlords) mess up the operation and how the game is made? Oh yeah...neutral....because it's ok to shove a new class into the game 7 years later because people have been asking for it well before launch, and that won't mess anything up at all.

Gungo

08-27-2011, 10:40 PM

<cite>Cusashorn wrote:</cite><blockquote> Also, I'd like to see where the "Old EQ2 class descriptions" were officially retconned out of existence by the developers.</blockquote>When they were DELETED and epics came out explaining class backstories COMPLETELY DIFFERENT then the old deleted class description on the original forum.

Gungo

08-27-2011, 10:43 PM

<cite>the_snare wrote:</cite><blockquote>What about all RACES good or evil aligned (or neutral) I mean, isn't it racist to assume that all ogres, dark elves and others are evil? <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" /> I had to betray just because I wanted an Ogre.</blockquote>You do realize all races are not good or evil SINCE the betrayal quest allowws them to be good or evil.The only restriction is you have to START in a good or evil city.

Gungo

08-27-2011, 10:47 PM

<cite>Cusashorn wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Ruckus@Unrest_old wrote:</cite><blockquote>I'm just curious why people are so riled up on my suggestion. Nobody said diddly when SOE changed templars/inquisitors, rangers/assassins, bruisers/monks, and coercers/illusionsits. Yet, if you read my previous posts, I pointed out all types of errors in regards to good inquisitors, good assassins, and good bruisers.</blockquote>Actually, I wasn't happy at all about that at all, but then I read the actual explanations they gave them, and now I'm OK with it because it made sense. However, just because of how the game operates, each archetype has to have 1 class combo that will forever be strictly split between good and evil.Necromancers, Brigands, Defilers, and Shadowknights are all strictly and always evil, even if swashbucklers, conjurers, and mystics aren't always good. They have to be though, because that's how the game is made.</blockquote>No they dont YOU GAVE the steal from the rich and give to the poor example that is a BRIGAND (thief) Not pirate. NECROS in game are NOT purely evil. Defilers in game commune with spirits of decay. Shadowknights are the only class restricted in game by cities. And the game DOES NOT need to be balanced by some arbitrary system of 1 of each archtypes.

Oxie

08-28-2011, 12:24 AM

<cite>Cusashorn wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Geothe wrote:</cite><blockquote>The "LORE" excuse is completely laughable.It would hold a bit of validity if SoE hadn't already ignored the "LORE" already when it comes to classes.GOOD-aligned assassins?Good Bruisers?EVIL monks?Neutral rogues make a lot more "lore" sense than neutral brawlers and preditors by a looooooong shot.So, yeah. "LORE" holds no validity as a reason not to allow any class for any faction being as SoE has already sunk that ship.</blockquote>The bruisers in Qeynos were allowed to form because a few individuals wanted to start practicing their strength at the Silent Fist Dojo. One of the more experienced monks laughed at the idea and was promptly knocked out in one punch. The headmaster allowed them to form their own order because he respected the bruiser's strength, and scolded the monk who forgot to keep an open mind towards the practices of others.</blockquote>Where's this headmaster of the dojo when I need him and his open mind and my wanting to practice my swashbuckling in an evil city?

Cusashorn

08-28-2011, 12:29 AM

<cite>Gungo@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Cusashorn wrote:</cite><blockquote> Also, I'd like to see where the "Old EQ2 class descriptions" were officially retconned out of existence by the developers.</blockquote>When they were DELETED and epics came out explaining class backstories COMPLETELY DIFFERENT then the old deleted class description on the original forum.</blockquote>Yeah... That's a load of bull. Many of the epics don't even talk much about the class itself, just the weapon.

Oxie

08-28-2011, 12:52 AM

<cite>Gungo@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Cusashorn wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Ruckus@Unrest_old wrote:</cite><blockquote>I'm just curious why people are so riled up on my suggestion. Nobody said diddly when SOE changed templars/inquisitors, rangers/assassins, bruisers/monks, and coercers/illusionsits. Yet, if you read my previous posts, I pointed out all types of errors in regards to good inquisitors, good assassins, and good bruisers.</blockquote>Actually, I wasn't happy at all about that at all, but then I read the actual explanations they gave them, and now I'm OK with it because it made sense. However, just because of how the game operates, each archetype has to have 1 class combo that will forever be strictly split between good and evil.Necromancers, Brigands, Defilers, and Shadowknights are all strictly and always evil, even if swashbucklers, conjurers, and mystics aren't always good. They have to be though, because that's how the game is made.</blockquote>No they dont YOU GAVE the steal from the rich and give to the poor example that is a BRIGAND (thief) Not pirate. NECROS in game are NOT purely evil. Defilers in game commune with spirits of decay. Shadowknights are the only class restricted in game by cities. And the game DOES NOT need to be balanced by some arbitrary system of 1 of each archtypes.</blockquote>I can't pickpocket other player characters. I can only pickpocket NPCs, and they are all pretty dang cheap! They only carry 30-50 silver, and I have to pickpocket quick because the other 5 scout classes can pickpocket and get those precious coins and lint from the mob's pocket before I do. If people think a swashbuckler "robs from the rich and gives to the poor", then they're sadly mistaken in regards to this swashbuckler. I keep my plat well hidden, and even the sexiest dark elf wench cannot weedle her way into my stash of coin. I can lure her with various trinkets and tokens of my affection, and it's only a small investment on my part. I know in the end that I'll end up making some sort of a profit out of the deal and end up with scratches on my back, but she'll just be too loopy to even realize what I've done until it is too late and I've moved on to cast my "Swashbuckler's Charm" on the next unsuspecting lass.Oh look, I just roleplayed an evil swashbuckler, all the while I retained all the awesomeness that is the swashbuckler class and I didn't end up having to switch to be a dirty brigand with a funny hat (robble robble). ~flounces off~

Kamimura

08-28-2011, 02:04 AM

<cite>Cusashorn wrote:</cite><blockquote>However, just because of how the game operates, each archetype has to have 1 class combo that will forever be strictly split between good and evil.Necromancers, Brigands, Defilers, and Shadowknights are all strictly and always evil, even if swashbucklers, conjurers, and mystics aren't always good. They have to be though, because that's how the game is made.</blockquote>Why does each archetype have to have one class combo that will always be good and evil?As for "how the game is made" the game was made with only one neutral pair of sublcasses - and yet, look what happened there...

Beghard

08-28-2011, 05:29 PM

<cite>Ruckus@Unrest_old wrote:</cite><blockquote>Swashbucklers, brigands, paladins, shadowknights, mystics, defilers, conjurors, and necromancers should be allowed to be good or evil aligned...like all the other classes. Now that the god pets share the same stats, some classes do not get to benefit from the altar-based miracles and blessings. Don't tell me to go exile. Don't tell me it will mess up your roleplay.</blockquote>lol. go away.<cite>Gungo@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>GussJr wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Ruckus@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote>Swashbucklers, brigands, paladins, shadowknights, mystics, defilers, conjurors, and necromancers should be allowed to be good or evil aligned...like all the other classes. Now that the god pets share the same stats, some classes do not get to benefit from the altar-based miracles and blessings. Don't tell me to go exile. Don't tell me it will mess up your roleplay.</blockquote>No...because it will mess with lore...If you want to be good or evil alligned, then betray...</blockquote>Technically the necros in Sentinals fate were good and i dont see how a conjuror cant be evil especially since mirgul was a conjuror.Swashbuckler and brigands dont have any lore stating good or evil. Mystic and defiler dont really either. The only classes in game with any strong lore for good vs evil is paladin and shadowknights since lucan is the only known evil paladin. And paladins were excommunicated from freeport because they were to good.So I say make all classes but crusaders neutral and let the roleplayers keep the paladin vs shadowknight debate going.</blockquote>stupid beyond stupid. This is like WOW stupid. Calling the first ever SK a Paladin. just....wowdidnt bother to read past this point in the thread, just to dam stupid. Dont bother replying to tell me what i said has already been stated because i truely dont care.

Aneova

08-29-2011, 12:59 AM

/sarcasm onWater is to G D wet imnho /sagely nod/sarcasm off

dotdotdot

08-29-2011, 01:46 AM

They already allow this on PVP servers, so all the "it will break the game!" and "MY LORE WILL BE RUINED" talk is moot, its already done. Just move it to PVE and be done with it. I'd love to be able to move all my toons to Freeport, as its my city of choice.

Oxie

08-29-2011, 11:20 AM

<cite>dotdotdot wrote:</cite><blockquote>They already allow this on PVP servers, so all the "it will break the game!" and "MY LORE WILL BE RUINED" talk is moot, its already done. Just move it to PVE and be done with it. I'd love to be able to move all my toons to Freeport, as its my city of choice.</blockquote>Dang it, Mae...where were you a few days ago? Your ability to sum it up in just a few lines would have saved me a lot of typing to try to defend my side of things! I'm horrible with TLDR walls of text. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/1cfd6e2a9a2c0cf8e74b49b35e2e46c7.gif" border="0" />

Illmarr

08-29-2011, 02:15 PM

<cite>Felishanna@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Ruckus@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote>Swashbucklers, brigands, paladins, shadowknights, mystics, defilers, conjurors, and necromancers should be allowed to be good or evil aligned...like all the other classes.</blockquote>(( I've seen all sorts of garbage on these forums over the years. But congratulations, you just came up with quite simply the most stupid suggestion I have ever heard.Good aligned shadowknights and necromancers? Evil aligned paladins? You do know what those concepts MEAN don't you? No, probably not.Look, if you do not like roleplaying games, don't play them, go play counterstrike or something.Now, I wait for the post where someone complains that water is wet.... <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" />)</blockquote>Check out the tradeskill AA feedback thread, someone already did <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/2786c5c8e1a8be796fb2f726cca5a0fe.gif" border="0" />

Gungo

08-29-2011, 02:39 PM

<cite>Beghard wrote:</cite><blockquote>stupid beyond stupid. This is like WOW stupid. Calling the first ever SK a Paladin. just....wowdidnt bother to read past this point in the thread, just to darn stupid. Dont bother replying to tell me what i said has already been stated because i truely dont care.</blockquote>LUCAN is NOT a shadowknight. NO where ever in game has ANYONE ever stated he was a SHADOWKNIGHT. To dam stupid entirely describes your reply. IN eq1 he was a PALADIN. According to Cusa in EQ1 he was stripped of his paladin powers by Mithnial marr, although i have never read that and cusa has continual shown he likes to make up lore as he beleives his opinion is lore. In eq2 he has PALADIN buffs. Those are the facts anything else like calling lucan a shadowknight is facts YOU make up. I like to go by facts presented IN GAME and stories provided by the devs on the forums. Not making up stuff as i go like cusa and calling classes like swashbucklers robin hood because cusa feels that is what the class entails when EVERYTHING in game and on the forums states otherwise and calls swashbucklers PIRATES.

Owwiee

08-29-2011, 02:55 PM

<cite>Felishanna@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Ruckus@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote>Swashbucklers, brigands, paladins, shadowknights, mystics, defilers, conjurors, and necromancers should be allowed to be good or evil aligned...like all the other classes.</blockquote>(( I've seen all sorts of garbage on these forums over the years. But congratulations, you just came up with quite simply the most stupid suggestion I have ever heard.Good aligned shadowknights and necromancers? Evil aligned paladins? You do know what those concepts MEAN don't you? No, probably not.Look, if you do not like roleplaying games, don't play them, go play counterstrike or something.Now, I wait for the post where someone complains that water is wet.... <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" />)</blockquote>I took my shower this morning and man was I ticked when I got out I was all wet..... I mean what the heck is up with that???

Rainmare

08-29-2011, 06:49 PM

It's a VERY blanantly done fact from EQ1 that Lucan D'Lere was STRIPPED of his paladin powers. he's the ONLY paladin to p*ss of mithaniel enough to get his powers stripped in the first place. SO sorry that Eq2 didn't give out books saying 'this is all the stuff that eq1 players already know that we don't feel like going back over again.'the new 'neutral' classes...the inquisitor/templar, ranger/assassin, monk/bruiser types...if you actually read into it...the 'evil templar' are basically evangelists. thier cult members that have throughly drank the kool-aid and gone back for seconds. they are nothing more then propaganda machines to keep up the idea that Lucan is a diety.the 'good inquisitor' is a battle cleric. the arguement even in the storyline for it is the templars see themselves as non-combatants, there to treat injuries as the wounded are brought to them, and the good iquisitor goes out onto the battlefield and bashes in heads while treating injuries as they occur.Bruisers in the good aligned are just like Cusa said. they are fighters that love to brawl, and enjoy brute force to finese.Monks in freeport are the Swifttail caste. Rigid discipline, but if you get injured or killed in training because you slack or are stupid..well too bad.Assassins in Qeynos are a blantant ripoff of the Assassins in Assassin's Creed. they are fighting fire with fire. they learn the assassin's ways, to counter other assassins freeport/neriak might send. they don't like it, they don't enjoy it, but they do it becuase it's a needed evil.the Red Hoods are former greenhoods who are fanatically devoted to getting rid of orcs. thier leader was 'betrayed' by his fellow greenhoods, mostly over the idea that they prefered guerilla tactics and he wanted to charge headfirst into Deathfyst Citadal arrows flying and spells blazing. he made the deal of trading his knowledge to lucan's military in enchange for being able to stay in Freeport to hunt the orcs he'd tracked there.A Swashbuckler is A robin hood figure. he's charming, dashing, and yes, if you have a lot of money and fall for his charm, he'll relieve you of some of it. but a swashy doesn't kill unless he has to. that's why he's charming. he uses his charm to get in, take your money, and leave you with a wink and a smile. a swashy is, better put, a con artist.A Brigand is your typical mugger and thief. he's in it for the money, and he doesn't care who or how many people he might have to hurt or gut or slit the throat of to get his next three copper peices. he'd throw his mother into the jaws of Nagafen for a few coins out of the dragon's hoard. if a swashy was a loan shark, a brigand is the guy that comes to break your legs and laughs and smiles doing it....and then wants to use the special tools on you just to hear you scream, while in his head he's counting up his percentage of the take if you die or if you give up the dough...and whichever result gets the most money he'll make happen.

Illmarr

08-29-2011, 07:13 PM

<cite>Rainmare@Oasis wrote:</cite><blockquote>It's a VERY blanantly done fact from EQ1 that Lucan D'Lere was STRIPPED of his paladin powers. he's the ONLY paladin to p*ss of mithaniel enough to get his powers stripped in the first place. SO sorry that Eq2 didn't give out books saying 'this is all the stuff that eq1 players already know that we don't feel like going back over again.'the new 'neutral' classes...the inquisitor/templar, ranger/assassin, monk/bruiser types...if you actually read into it...the 'evil templar' are basically evangelists. thier cult members that have throughly drank the kool-aid and gone back for seconds. they are nothing more then propaganda machines to keep up the idea that Lucan is a diety.the 'good inquisitor' is a battle cleric. the arguement even in the storyline for it is the templars see themselves as non-combatants, there to treat injuries as the wounded are brought to them, and the good iquisitor goes out onto the battlefield and bashes in heads while treating injuries as they occur.Bruisers in the good aligned are just like Cusa said. they are fighters that love to brawl, and enjoy brute force to finese.Monks in freeport are the Swifttail caste. Rigid discipline, but if you get injured or killed in training because you slack or are stupid..well too bad.Assassins in Qeynos are a blantant ripoff of the Assassins in Assassin's Creed. they are fighting fire with fire. they learn the assassin's ways, to counter other assassins freeport/neriak might send. they don't like it, they don't enjoy it, but they do it becuase it's a needed evil.the Red Hoods are former greenhoods who are fanatically devoted to getting rid of orcs. thier leader was 'betrayed' by his fellow greenhoods, mostly over the idea that they prefered guerilla tactics and he wanted to charge headfirst into Deathfyst Citadal arrows flying and spells blazing. he made the deal of trading his knowledge to lucan's military in enchange for being able to stay in Freeport to hunt the orcs he'd tracked there.A Swashbuckler is A robin hood figure. he's charming, dashing, and yes, if you have a lot of money and fall for his charm, he'll relieve you of some of it. but a swashy doesn't kill unless he has to. that's why he's charming. he uses his charm to get in, take your money, and leave you with a wink and a smile. a swashy is, better put, a con artist.A Brigand is your typical mugger and thief. he's in it for the money, and he doesn't care who or how many people he might have to hurt or gut or slit the throat of to get his next three copper peices. he'd throw his mother into the jaws of Nagafen for a few coins out of the dragon's hoard. if a swashy was a loan shark, a brigand is the guy that comes to break your legs and laughs and smiles doing it....and then wants to use the special tools on you just to hear you scream, while in his head he's counting up his percentage of the take if you die or if you give up the dough...and whichever result gets the most money he'll make happen.</blockquote>So bottom line the only difference between a Swashbuckler and a Brigand is style points and how they rob you.I do like the analogy that the Brigand works for the Swashbuckler as his leg-breaker <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/97ada74b88049a6d50a6ed40898a03d7.gif" border="0" />

Morghus

08-29-2011, 07:18 PM

Those are the typical explanations/descriptors/whys for some classes.However, the fact is....players are not typical. It's okay to make broad explanations and labels like that for static npcs, however players more often than not do not adhere to the same principles unless it is by choice and part of how they envision their character.The point is, we do not drop out of a conveyor belt, perfectly formed and exactly the same as the one right next to us. Rules are fine, however they are not needed when the rule is arbitrary. In this case, it is simply an archaic restriction that only serves to remove options by limiting player choice.

Rainmare

08-29-2011, 09:21 PM

True. but lets also remember that the only reason the OP even brought this up is he wants to give his swashy the superpowered DPS aerlick inspired machine goddess Anashti Sul as his deity. (at least that's the deity I think he's after) and he doesn't want to 'Exile' becuase he looses city benefits. which I believe isn't true anymore. if I recall right they gave Haven a broker and a bank and such a while back to cover that very issue.can an evil swashy exist? probably. but the fundamental differences in a swashy and a brig mean an evil swashy would be so close to a brig already he might as well be one from a lore standpoint.the biggest differences lore wise is a brigand will betray, backstab, cheat, steal and kill without any reason or problem, as long as the money on that side of the fence is better. a swashy will lie and steal, but doesn't betray or kill or backstab his target. like a con man, he's there to earn your trust, swipe what he can, and get away while keeping in your good graces. He doesn't want to hurt you, he wants to charm you.A brigand knows only about how much coin you carry, and how to get it without leaving any witnesses. including you.a Swashy wants to be your pal, share some drinks at the bar, convince you to pay his tab, and casually 'borrow' money from you in larger amounts until your broke...then he finds a new best friend....at least until you have a full coinpurse again.

Oxie

08-29-2011, 09:48 PM

If SOE can come up with explanations on the first 16 classes that could be either good or evil, they can do it for the last 8. They'll be able to do it for beastlords easily enough.I don't want to live in Haven. I don't want to be exiled. I don't want to be a brigand. Now that all gods have + to WIS STR AGI STA INT, it does me no good to keep following Bristlebane with good alignment (he was the only god that gave +AGI up until 61 launched.)I also want to do evil side quests, which I cannot do if I'm good or exiled. On top of raiding, I also do quest, and I'd gladly go through all of those quests in the evil cities.As for people who try to define how I play my character in a lore/roleplaying perspective...just please stop. I don't roleplay, and I do not live for EQ lore like some of you people obviously do. I spend most of my time raiding, and I'm tired of using the Bristlebane reset encounter option and I want to add to my DPS. I sometimes do not get into the most ideal raid groups. Sul and Zek are two options that I do not get as a a good aligned rogue.I backstab...I have combat arts that are back/flank based. I pickpocket just like ALL THE OTHER SCOUT CLASSES. It's a mechanic to help overcome the cost of poisons and ammo, but it's a minor amount of coin and doesn't even touch the cost of T9 poisons and ammo. My swashbuckler does not "lie", because I'm the person behind the toon, and that's a role playing perscpective that I do not participate in.I've killed plenty of mobs in this game, so yes, LIKE ALL THE OTHER CLASSES, I'm a killer.The swashbuckler "charm" combat art (Disarming Grin) is pretty much useless and never lands, even at Master level.Plat amount is no concern to me. As someone who raids, I could have 500 plat or 25,000 plat, and it wouldn't matter. There is nothing to buy in game for me that requires me to have a big pile of plat sitting around. I can easily spend 200 plat on a weapon for appearance sake, and it still wouldn't put a dent in my stash of plat. I could also sink 200 plat into a pile of shinies, and it still wouldn't phase my bank account.I really don't want to be anyone's pal. I do not drink in real life, and that doesn't matter in game BECAUSE I DON'T ROLE PLAY. I don't have to borrow money from anyone, because I have enough of my own.Just let us betray and keep our classes like the other 17 classes can do. If you don't want to betray your paladin or shadowknight, then don't do it. Keep on roleplaying in Qeynos or Freeport with those classes, and let the rest of us alone to play our characters how we want...and not how you dictate "things should be".

Illmarr

08-29-2011, 10:10 PM

<cite>Morghus@Butcherblock wrote:</cite><blockquote>Those are the typical explanations/descriptors/whys for some classes.However, the fact is....players are not typical. It's okay to make broad explanations and labels like that for static npcs, however players more often than not do not adhere to the same principles unless it is by choice and part of how they envision their character.The point is, we do not drop out of a conveyor belt, perfectly formed and exactly the same as the one right next to us. Rules are fine, however they are not needed when the rule is arbitrary. In this case, it is simply an archaic restriction that only serves to remove options by limiting player choice.</blockquote>To be honest, I didn't really have any issues with the original class set-up. As you said, it was the arbitrary decision to allow some classes to gain neutrality and saddling others without that option that is upsetting to some.

dotdotdot

08-30-2011, 02:03 AM

<cite>Cisteros@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Morghus@Butcherblock wrote:</cite><blockquote>Those are the typical explanations/descriptors/whys for some classes.However, the fact is....players are not typical. It's okay to make broad explanations and labels like that for static npcs, however players more often than not do not adhere to the same principles unless it is by choice and part of how they envision their character.The point is, we do not drop out of a conveyor belt, perfectly formed and exactly the same as the one right next to us. Rules are fine, however they are not needed when the rule is arbitrary. In this case, it is simply an archaic restriction that only serves to remove options by limiting player choice.</blockquote>To be honest, I didn't really have any issues with the original class set-up. As you said, it was the arbitrary decision to allow some classes to gain neutrality and saddling others without that option that is upsetting to some. </blockquote>Oh it wasn't ARBITRARY at all, it was all because of EQ2x.

TaleraRis

08-30-2011, 03:11 AM

<cite>Rainmare@Oasis wrote:</cite><blockquote>Assassins in Qeynos are a blantant ripoff of the Assassins in Assassin's Creed. they are fighting fire with fire. they learn the assassin's ways, to counter other assassins freeport/neriak might send. they don't like it, they don't enjoy it, but they do it becuase it's a needed evil.</blockquote>What? That isn't the deal with AC. The Templars want to make the world peaceful by controlling everyone and everything. The Assassins want peace in the world as well, but they want to maintain free will that the Templars want to squelch. The way you're describing the "good" assassins in EQ2 doesn't sound anything like that.I'm an old-school EQ player. I was an agnostic enchanter there, but I'm a ranger here.The idea of an evil ranger is just preposterous to me, no matter what backstory has been put together to make it make sense.A good ranger who follows Tunare? Yep, growth, nature goddess, hippy goodness.A ranger who follows the more neutral path of Karana? Yep. Storms, the fury of nature, hippy goodness, just of a more feral nature.A ranger who follows the Plaguebringer...what?!BUT, if there's a story that can propose this idea and make it make sense (for some, I will never, ever find the idea of an evil ranger acceptable from a lore standpoint), then why is it so impossible other stories for the remaining classes couldn't also be crafted to make it all make sense for them?

Senya

08-30-2011, 04:17 AM

<cite>dotdotdot wrote:</cite><blockquote>They already allow this on PVP servers, so all the "it will break the game!" and "MY LORE WILL BE RUINED" talk is moot, its already done. Just move it to PVE and be done with it. I'd love to be able to move all my toons to Freeport, as its my city of choice.</blockquote>This.Qeynos is my city of choice and I'd like to move all my characters there. I'll be the first to admit I don't know much of the lore, but I've been around mmo's long enough to know that lore gets altered every time a new feature is added. There's lore to explain the beastlords coming back, lore to explain how 8 classes are now neutral, lore to explain Ratongas in Qeynos, lore to explain why fae/arasai couldn't fly, and now lore to explain why they can. If they allowed a necromancer to betray to Qeynos or a paladin to betray to Freeport there would be lore for that, too. In fact it's already there on the pvp servers. Lore is being written as we go. The devs aren't opening up their Norrathian history books or fact checking with Antonia or Lucan before they make a change. I'm betting that changes are planned first, and then the lore is added in to explain it, not the other way around.

Rainmare

08-30-2011, 04:48 AM

well what I meant was they are using 'evil' methods to accomplish 'good' goals. the ends justify the means.and yes, the player behind the toon may not lie. his swashy may not lie. killing mobs and backstab as a class skill are not defining characteristics of a brig or swash. assassins do it too.your whole arguement is a VERY VERY old arguement. you don't care about the lore or the backstory of the game, YOU just want to get the highest DPS numbers. you don't care about the game world, you care about the game mechanics.so how about we take it the way it needs to be to truly satisfy you. and merge the classes back to the EQ1 originals. no swashy or brig, just a Rogue. no templar/inquis, just a Cleric, ect.the whole reason they sliced up the classes was for the 'good' and 'evil' theme. thanks to EQx and PvP, they were pressured into making more classes neutral. unfortunately, you happen to have one of the classes they are keeping the good/evil theme with. and yes you'll notice every archtype has a good/evil set.swash/brig, pal/sk, conjy/necro, mystic/defiler.and maybe it is just that simple. and maybe it's becuase they still want to keep SOME classes with the theme, and you just got the short straw.or maybe it's becuase they can't come up with a story, since they DO care about the game world, to make a swashy 'evil' without it turning out to be just a Brigand in a different hat. becuase they have to create the trainers, place them, blend them into the cities they are in. they actually do care about immerssion, even if you don't. and I would be hard pressed to find a reason to but a brigand trainer in qeynos.just like your downshooting my comments with 'you don't drink or want new pals or your plat amount' those comments were about the class concept of being a swash, even if you don't specifically like it.that's the way an in game, npc based, swashy acts. they charm you, they be your friend, even while loosening your purse strings. it's in the class description. and like it or not, the brigand class description is they are thugs and brutes that look to kill you, steal your coin, and throw your body in the sewer. and not necessarily in that order.of course you don't care about that, you just want your Sul or Zek diety and to up your quest counts. they have an option for you to do that. you go into Exile. you just don't like it becuase you don't want to give up a few city privleges, to get the deity/quests your looking for.you know long before they made these 'neutral' classes, that's how people did it. that's how alot of people STILL do it. I've met plenty of wizards, warlocks, rangers, inquisitors, defilers, mystics that are Exiled for a god choice or quest count. and hell I know several of them that are in the new 'neutral' set that are STILL exile becuase they don't want to miss out on thier quest counts and woudl rather not betray back and forth all the time from good to evil.and really, what city perk would you be missing out on? do tell. you raid, so I assume your in a raiding guild. I can't think of a single thing in a city that you wouldn't be able to use from your guild hall if you were an Exile.So far it seems to me that you for some reason have some stigma against being an Exile. and don't like the fact that you are one of the 2 scout classes that have to either exile, or live with being one or the other.

Morghus

08-30-2011, 05:18 AM

I could care less about the other stuff and simply find it stale to be kept the way it is when it can be made more interesting.I personally would like it to be something like this:good and evil descriptors removedall races still start in their appropriate cities but can choose to move to any city via questscities will still hate you like it is now but questlines are added to gain acceptance to every city (fake passport, mercenary licenses etc)cities will have multiple sabotage or opposing quests (securing a client for x city first etc), making people have to choose and balance inter-city factions outside of doing weak repeatableshigh faction with opposed cities to purchase a house in one that is above the 5s homeguards when killed drop uniforms to disguise players, but going up to ranking officers or the wrong city gets you in troubleall gods are open to everyone but have modifiers to make it require more faction with some cities to be acceptedgood and evil dialog is opened up for everyone, signature quests that reference or require interaction with certain city leaders will be based on whichever city you are currently citizen ofNot being citizen of a city locks the faction at 20k, 30k for an allied city, becoming a citizen uncaps it to 50k but can only be citizen of one city at a time. Changing citizenship lowers it to w/e cap is applicablespecial faction merchants for each city accessible at 50k factionOverall, make it less about restrictions and more about choices, the inter-city dynamics, and player effort and individuality

Tigress

08-30-2011, 05:36 AM

<cite>Ruckus@Unrest_old wrote:</cite><blockquote>Both druid classes could be good or evil at launch.</blockquote>are you sure abt that? i am pretty sure that i picked fury over warden bc it was evil (may 2010). the evil healers had more DPS so i went with the evil one.maybe i'm mistaken, though. wish that i could go back & check ZAM/wikia but they've likely wiped those pages clean.

Torri

08-30-2011, 11:30 AM

<cite>Tigress wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Ruckus@Unrest_old wrote:</cite><blockquote>Both druid classes could be good or evil at launch.</blockquote>are you sure abt that? i am pretty sure that i picked fury over warden bc it was evil (may 2010). the evil healers had more DPS so i went with the evil one.maybe i'm mistaken, though. wish that i could go back & check ZAM/wikia but they've likely wiped those pages clean.</blockquote>Yes, I am sure about that. Druids, Warriors, Sorcerers, and Bards were all available to both cities

Regholdain

08-30-2011, 05:07 PM

Acually, I agree with the OP. From an RP standpoint, and from the standpoint of an avid fiction writer, I can come up with multiple reasons why some of the "evil" or "good" archetypes would be the opposite of a "traditionally accepted" alignment. Characters are about motives and experiences, not their "profession". Good people do bad things, and sometimes evil people do good. It's all gray really. I've seen several quests where you are given two different response options to NPCs - one where you could say something "evil" and another where you could say something "good". Why give the player the option of how to respond when the game already knows you are evil or good?I can see the street thug brigand turning against other thugs, or using his brigand abilities to protect citizens in his town, but in no way becoming a charming swashbuckler in the process. Sure, he may kill and rob, but maybe he has motives behind those actions, targets specific people, etc. - many criminals in real life are like this and don't always target random individuals.I can see a ranger being evil because he worships the darker side of nature - the fact that animals have no morality, no distinction of goodness, just raw unbridled instinct, capable of reacting in dark, hair-raising ways. Ever seen a bear defend it's cub, or run into a hungry wolf? They don't care much if your good or evil - you'll still get mawed. Rangers, as people, could have other motives. What about a ranger angered over the incursion of people in his woodland realm, so much so that he hunts the people that enter the realm - they trespassed, so they the only one to be judge and executioner is the protector with the bow.I agree necromancy, though dark and moraly disgusting to some, could be seen as a scientific tool, an alternative to other magical ways of doing things. Again, motives, and the reasons they use those powers could determine whether they are evil or not. Perhaps in combat they only disturb the dead corpses of their enemies, and reverently preserve the corpses of their fallen allies (if they cannot be resurrected).The choice between shadowknight and paladin really boils down to the methods the devout and zealous want to demonstrate their faith on the battlefield. The paladin focuses on defense and divine power to display how his god can protect his allies and smite his enemies, and the SK focuses on offense and the sorcery of death to show how his god protects its followers and destroys his enemies. Why does that mean the paladin is good or that the SK is evil? They are the flipside of the same coin, displaying the power of their faith and the different faces of their deities. Most deities do have two sides: Can a god be merciful, but also vengful? Can a god be just but also jealous? Can a god be loving, but also wrathful? Sounds familiar to me.In the end it makes no sense that you would not have evil and good in the same city. It's unrealistic. If everyone were "good" or "evil", then why would the cities have laws?Races being good or evil makes sense, depending on the background of the race. Trolls and Ogres, for example, are evil simply because of the way they behave, the way their culture raises them. That's not saying one of them could decide he doesn't like it and couldn't betray. It just would be very odd that one would do so. It's like the differences between Gorowyn, Freeport, and Nariak, they are all evil to an extent, but each has a unique culture. The races there all have reasons for their anger, hatred, etc., but that doesn't mean there wouldn't be a few that would want to betray for whatever reasons of their own. On the same argument, you could argue there could be pockets of societies of certain races that held different cultural mores than the "typical" member of their race.Still, most of these reasons are based on RP or characterization of non-gameplay stats. The OP wants to worship an evil deity, but be a devilish and charming rogue. I see no reason this shouldn't be allowed. So his swashy became a cut-throat with grand designs, but hides his malevolence behind his smile. He honors his evil deity because there's something about it that taps into his nature, something that just "feels right" about it. So what? He doesn't RP anyways, but he could have his reasons to want to play this way if he did.Also, the "D&D" alignment arguments are all moot. This game is not based on that game and doesn't source it's lore from it.

Rainmare

08-30-2011, 06:32 PM

They aren't moot becaase of how the cities work.Lucan D'lere runs his city with an iron fist, a lot of propaganda, and a healthy dose of corruption. a Paladin in Freeport is a walking corpse. any worshipper of Mithaniel Marr is a marked man, for that matter. You can kill whomever you want, whenever you want, as long as you can either not get caught red handed, or have the coin to pay the militia...or are a member of said militia. it's pretty obvious that in Lucan's city, the Militia can, and do, interpret everyone's actions, and the 'law' however they see fit, at any given time.and the many of the gods of EQ are not 'grey'. there's NOTHING 'good' about Innoruuk. or Bertox, or Cazic. there's nothing evil about Tunare, Mithaniel, Rodcet Nife. Mithaniel is not just Valor. he's also Truth.Antonia keeps Qeynos as a becon of a safe haven, where you can be comforatble and not have to watch your back every minute in case someone thinks your paladium ring is worth killing for. people looking to actively spread hate, disease, and fear are not welcome in Qeynos. people that think the best way to make a plat is literally over your dead body won't be welcome.A brigand in Qeynos would be arrested and probably place in jail for his entire life if not executed for his crimes. because they are not subtle people. murder is murder in Qeynos, no matter your justification. it's a very simple distinction between those classes. Swashy is a con man. Brig is a leg breaker. the swashy gets away with it by being charming and conning you out of your money, while bending the law without really breaking it. a brig breaks the law, and your spine, to acheive the same means. that is how they work.want real world examples? watch the news. the reports of 'don't fall for this scam' are swashies. the ones that you see the mug shot of who they are actively looking for? those are brigands.and before someone mentions Qeynos assassins, they are, in thier lore, NOT looking to assassinate members of Qeynos. thier job is to infiltrate and assassinate members/groups from Neriak/Freeport. they are using the assassin's skills to assassinate other assassins sent to kill the Council of Ten or Antonia Bayle.the paladin/shadowknight dicotomy is not about thier methods, it's about the deities they serve. A Paladin serving mithaniel wants to protect the weak, defend the innocent, and be a symbol of truth and justice in teh world. a shadowknight serving Innoruuk doesn't give one whit about the weak or innocent. in fact, killing the weak and innocent is probably a good thing because it inspires hatred which feeds his patron diety that much more. there's no need to tell the truth, when lying would benefit you more. A Paladin of Tunare wants to keep the world pure, to allow Growth and life to take it's own courses as they should. a Shadowknight of Bertox wants to see the entire world rot and become a festering mass of disease, poison, and filth.now that being said, and another solution to this issue, is that many of the GODS need to be neutral. I think the only 'Good' Deities should be Mith Marr, Tunare, Brell (who should also not be a Tradeskill god) and Rodcet. the only evil deities should be Bert, Cazic, Inny, and Anashti( who shouldn't be a dps goddess but the evil healer). all other deities should be neutral.that would put Quellious, Zek, Karana, Tribunal, Bristlebane, Sol Rothat woudl give you 4 good, 4 evil, and 6 neutral. and when the next two goddess come out, which most think will be Love and Betrayal, they can be good and evil respectivly as well.and look, the OP coudl then be a good swashy with Zek for his DPS numbers. then all he has to complain about is his quest count, I suppose.

Oxie

08-30-2011, 07:32 PM

<cite>Rainmare@Oasis wrote:</cite><blockquote>and merge the classes back to the EQ1 originals. no swashy or brig, just a Rogue. no templar/inquis, just a Cleric, ect.and maybe it is just that simple. and maybe it's becuase they still want to keep SOME classes with the theme, and you just got the short straw.of course you don't care about that, you just want your Sul or Zek diety and to up your quest counts. they have an option for you to do that. you go into Exile. you just don't like it becuase you don't want to give up a few city privleges, to get the deity/quests your looking for.and really, what city perk would you be missing out on? do tell. you raid, so I assume your in a raiding guild. I can't think of a single thing in a city that you wouldn't be able to use from your guild hall if you were an Exile.So far it seems to me that you for some reason have some stigma against being an Exile. and don't like the fact that you are one of the 2 scout classes that have to either exile, or live with being one or the other.</blockquote>I'd be fine with them merging the rogues into one class (along with a few other classes). They bit off more than what they could chew by having 24(25) distinct classes from the standpoint of class armor, class mythicals, unique class spells/combat arts. Just too many manhours involved to keep 25 classes balanced and happy. I'd be just fine with being a rogue again, and the differences come out in a new AA build. Pick one tab if you want to be of the swashbuckler type, pick another AA build if you want to be a dirty brigand with a funny hat.Yeah, rogues, shaman, crusaders, and summoners got the short straw. Do you consider one of those 8 classes as your "main"? If not, then grats for being able to be 100% flexible on where you can go/live and to be able to play your class to the best of it's ability because you can pick whatever god you want to follow. It sounds like you are not a min/max type of person, but some of us are (or try very hard to be close to the ideal stats for our characters.) (Edit: I just looked your character up on EQ2players, and see that you're a paladin. Hey, if you want to remain a good aligned paladin, then stay where you are at in your current city. If you want to be an evil aligned paladin, then you should have that right to do so. If I'm not mistaken, the best god for a tank is good aligned, so you're set and you don't have to worry about it. My class doesn't have that option, other than going exile...and for the last time...I want to be in a city for the various reasons that I've stated a few times.)If I was exile, I would not be able to do live event/world event city-based quests from either good or evil cities, so that will really hurt my quest count. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I was under the impression that exiles cannot get quests for live events, especially if those events are happening within the city walls. I've never had a character in exile, so I'm assuming there are no city merchants within "the den".Yes, I am in a raiding guild, and a lot of what my guild hall offers keeps me from having to be in a city like it used to be. I still want the *option* to have a place to call "home" other than some exile's den out in the middle of nowhere.Like a few others have said, they were able to open up all 24 classes on the PvP servers and come up with decent enough explanations, so why not open it up on the PvE servers? Surely some PvP lore fans and roleplayers existed when the change happened for 8 classes. Did they rant about the change, or did they go with the flow and it was PvP business as usual?I had two options when I started this thread: either ask for the ability for all classes to be able to follow any of the gods that are in game, or ask that the last 8 classes also become "neutral". I figured that asking if they would open up all gods to both alignments would have just stirred up more quibbling compared to just allowing all classes to be neutral.

dotdotdot

08-30-2011, 07:32 PM

<cite>Rainmare@Oasis wrote:</cite><blockquote>A brigand in Qeynos would be arrested and probably place in jail for his entire life if not executed for his crimes. because they are not subtle people. </blockquote>Wait, what about brigands is not subtle? They come up behind you and bash your head in, or stab you before you realize what hit you. A brig in Q MIGHT be arrested... if they're caught. Who's to say that a brigand by night can't be a grocer by day? And who's to say that a brigand based in Qeynos can't save their thug-like activities for those who truly deserve it, much like the Qeynosian assassin?I mean, SERIOUSLY, if an assassin can be welcome in Qeynos, why is a brigand so hard to believe? And honestly, a Freeport based swashy is not exactly a stretch. Just because he's charming doesn't mean he wouldn't fit right in with the darker streets of FP. In fact, I bet swashies would make superb militiamen, because they'd be able to use that charm to con even more "taxes" out of the little people.

Oxie

08-30-2011, 07:45 PM

<cite>Gwyneth@Najena wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Rainmare@Oasis wrote:</cite><blockquote>Assassins in Qeynos are a blantant ripoff of the Assassins in Assassin's Creed. they are fighting fire with fire. they learn the assassin's ways, to counter other assassins freeport/neriak might send. they don't like it, they don't enjoy it, but they do it becuase it's a needed evil.</blockquote>What? That isn't the deal with AC. The Templars want to make the world peaceful by controlling everyone and everything. The Assassins want peace in the world as well, but they want to maintain free will that the Templars want to squelch. The way you're describing the "good" assassins in EQ2 doesn't sound anything like that.I'm an old-school EQ player. I was an agnostic enchanter there, but I'm a ranger here.The idea of an evil ranger is just preposterous to me, no matter what backstory has been put together to make it make sense.A good ranger who follows Tunare? Yep, growth, nature goddess, hippy goodness.A ranger who follows the more neutral path of Karana? Yep. Storms, the fury of nature, hippy goodness, just of a more feral nature.A ranger who follows the Plaguebringer...what?!BUT, if there's a story that can propose this idea and make it make sense (for some, I will never, ever find the idea of an evil ranger acceptable from a lore standpoint), then why is it so impossible other stories for the remaining classes couldn't also be crafted to make it all make sense for them?</blockquote>Thank you for bringing another perspective to this. You explained it perfectly on how I see the ranger class. Likewise, I cannot wrap my head around a good aligned assassin, yet SOE was able to explain it.When they made all classes neutral on the PvP servers, did they bother to write out an explanation to define the crusaders, rogues, shaman, and summoners? If so, I'd love to read the explanations that they gave.

Oxie

08-30-2011, 08:12 PM

<cite>dotdotdot wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Rainmare@Oasis wrote:</cite><blockquote>A brigand in Qeynos would be arrested and probably place in jail for his entire life if not executed for his crimes. because they are not subtle people. </blockquote>I mean, SERIOUSLY, if an assassin can be welcome in Qeynos, why is a brigand so hard to believe? And honestly, a Freeport based swashy is not exactly a stretch. Just because he's charming doesn't mean he wouldn't fit right in with the darker streets of FP. In fact, I bet swashies would make superb militiamen, because they'd be able to use that charm to con even more "taxes" out of the little people.</blockquote>This.A swashbuckler running around the trees where the scout trainers are at in Elddar Grove or a swashbuckler hustling his way through the crowd on the docks where the evil scout trainers loiter on their boat in South Freeport. What makes more sense? Yes, swashbucklers are known tree huggers.

RogueSpideyChick

08-30-2011, 08:49 PM

<div><cite>Torri@Lucan DLere wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Tigress wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Ruckus@Unrest_old wrote:</cite><blockquote>Both druid classes could be good or evil at launch.</blockquote>are you sure abt that? i am pretty sure that i picked fury over warden bc it was evil (may 2010). the evil healers had more DPS so i went with the evil one.maybe i'm mistaken, though. wish that i could go back & check ZAM/wikia but they've likely wiped those pages clean.</blockquote>Yes, I am sure about that. Druids, Warriors, Sorcerers, and Bards were all available to both cities<div></div></blockquote></div>yes. i made my fury in 2005 & the only reason i made her evil (i did have the choice) is because my previous toon was an assassin & i knew my way around freeport already.

Buzzing

08-31-2011, 04:57 PM

This whole thread is because some people wanted the evil god? and you don't want to do the little extra work to become exile then just go back to your home city?I am aligned with Qeynos not exile and I have zek as my god... I just went threw the extra steps to get it (adn I will more then likely switch it again /shrug)

Ruhroh

08-31-2011, 10:42 PM

<cite>Buzzing@Butcherblock wrote:</cite><blockquote>This whole thread is because some people wanted the evil god? and you don't want to do the little extra work to become exile then just go back to your home city?I am aligned with Qeynos not exile and I have zek as my god... I just went threw the extra steps to get it (adn I will more then likely switch it again /shrug)</blockquote>Not all gods work that way. For some reason, SOE felt it necessary to have code for specific gods like Anashti and Rodcet, that will remove your deity if you betray back to the opposite alignment. Yet they didn't touch the other gods and let people do as you describe to keep those.

Duckschu

09-01-2011, 12:10 AM

Frankly, most of the people posting here are... not unspecial?Good vs. EvilI didn't see it mentioned in the previous 4 pages of walls of text, but I saw it hinted at a few times. G vs E is always subjective. ALWAYS. When you're on the winning side, you're good. The other guys are evil. When you lose, you're the good guys, and evil cheated.If you want to get into specific LORE examples of good and evil - bicker away until your hearts are content. Its all interpritation and subjective anyway.Beyond Pally / SK there is almost no reason at all to define the classes as good or evil. Warlocks can be good. But... necro's are evil... cause. Well, necro's summon dead things to life. Nice touch <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Netherlords and Dark Infestation on my Good Warlock don't make her evil...We can go on and on and back and forth. In the end, here's the only reasons anyone can oppose making everyone able to be good or bad:- Roleplay- Lore- Status Quo (example... pallies are always good in every game - unless of course you're on the side fighting against them...)- "Because I don't like change"- "Because its always been this way"- Eq1So... Roleplay. Seriously... RPers need to just shut up and go RP on their own servers. I RP - I have RP'd for years. Playing in one style does NOT mean anyone has to, should, or ever will conform to your play style. If I like PvP, does that mean you must be required to PvP? In fact, how many of you hard core RP folks here play on a pvp server? Not many. Cause who wants to be forced into doing something they don't want to, right? IMHO all RP servers should be RPPvP - we don't want to ruin your immersion...Lore. EQ2 cares about as much for lore as it does for getting GU's correct on the first shot. Lore gets toasted on a daily basis in this game. At least twice a year something comes along from SoE that goes strictly against lore. So lore as a valid argument fails.Status Quo. Really? Do you still make minimum wage? For those of you who are old enough, are you still making $3.75 an hour? Cause if you're that bent about status quo, you should never take a raise... or a different job... or more than one girlfriend... ever... in fact, you should (and probably do) still live with your parents. <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />"Because I don't like change!" Well, I care. Really I do. Glad you level locked all of your characters at level 1. Now go away."Because its always been this way!" Please refer to Lore and Status Quo for the answer to this. Pull your head out folks! The world is passin' you by!Eq1. Using another game to defend your position in this game is beyond silly. While using EQ1 is not as arbitrary as using SWG or WoW as examples, you do realize that for every thing that stayed the same from EQ1 to EQ2 about 10,000 things are different... right?TL<img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />R VersionGood and evil are arbitrary. Always has been, always will be. I'm sure all of the soldiers in Hitlers army were convinced they were evil...No one actually cares about your reasons for not wanting something to change other than you.Lore is a convenient excuse when it fits your argument - also, knowing this much lore about a video game is just... creepy.

Firnbarion

09-01-2011, 12:59 AM

jmtc:When i started to see, that Qeynos and Freeport seemed to get closer together I did not like it. For me this game is Qeynos against Freeport. And I would really like to see, that rift be widened instead of being closed. The mixing that goes on since some time is taking out the core play in light of Lore and RP. I am glad this game is much more than just 'kill 100 Kobolds' or clearing one dungeon after the other. So yes, I am all for separating the cities again - separating classes - and get those two cities fighting each other again like it was meant to be from the beginning. F.

dotdotdot

09-01-2011, 02:33 AM

<cite>Buzzing@Butcherblock wrote:</cite><blockquote>This whole thread is because some people wanted the evil god? and you don't want to do the little extra work to become exile then just go back to your home city?I am aligned with Qeynos not exile and I have zek as my god... I just went threw the extra steps to get it (adn I will more then likely switch it again /shrug)</blockquote>No, some people like to have all their chars in the same city too!

Kamimura

09-01-2011, 02:45 AM

<cite>Firnbarion wrote:</cite><blockquote> The mixing that goes on since some time is taking out the core play in light of Lore and RP.</blockquote>Interestingly, while I was very much against the original round of changes at first, I now see them as having added to roleplaying rather than taking away from it. It really opens up the way for creating some very interesting and complex characters, rather than having a cookie cutter world where good is x and evil is y... blurring the lines a bit makes things feel more real, adding more detail to the world. Frankly, at this point where so many classes are neutral as it is, I think I'd be in favor of just taking that all the way, and letting them all be neutral. (Lore not really being an issue here, they wrote lore for the other classes, I'm sure they could do it for the rest...) I'm sure it would be hard to explain an evil paladin or a good necromancer, but it's not impossible, and the challenge could add an interesting element to RP.

Kimber

09-01-2011, 03:14 AM

For those that say no to this for Lore reasons. Lore says that Qey and FP are ""against"" each other. Only coming to gather in times of great need to defeat a mutual threat.So once said threat has been defeted the sides would go back to not working with each other right. K so once the end all be all x4 raid mob for the current exp or tier is done you cannot group with anyone from a differant alignment. This would mean the only players from Qey and FP that could group would be lv 90 toons and once 1 raid has killed the mob on the server then no more cross faction grouping. Exhile would be left out to dry since noone would be able to group with them other than other exhile. This would end up pushing exhile to be the primary raid faction ( like it was on Naggy for a long time ) as it would be the only way to continue to clear content with the correct class's. Because Lore says a Pally must be ""good"" aligned.Think about it Naggy is tbh the best Lore server out there. FP and Qey fight each other every day out there. The players take trash about each other and Exhile are killed on sight ( well some of them not all some of them are pretty good and will mop the floor with you ) However we have all class's on both sides. So that we can clear content also. Imagine trying to clear content in TSO with out a SK the only tanks you had avail Pally Monk Zerk Guard. GL with that dont get me wrong they could get it done but things went so much quicker with the SK.Qey FreepPally SKMonk BruiserTemp InqMyst DefilerConj NecroIlly CoerRanger SinSwash BrigBothGuard ZerkDirge TroubWarden FuryLock WizBuild an effective X4 raid using only 1 faction that can clear endgame content. Oh and yes I can build one also the only thing is noone will want to go do it cause instead of taking 4-6 hours to clear a zone it will take 8-12 hours to do it.

Rainmare

09-01-2011, 09:07 PM

<cite>Duckschu wrote:</cite><blockquote>Frankly, most of the people posting here are... not unspecial?Good vs. EvilI didn't see it mentioned in the previous 4 pages of walls of text, but I saw it hinted at a few times. G vs E is always subjective. ALWAYS. When you're on the winning side, you're good. The other guys are evil. When you lose, you're the good guys, and evil cheated.If you want to get into specific LORE examples of good and evil - bicker away until your hearts are content. Its all interpritation and subjective anyway.Beyond Pally / SK there is almost no reason at all to define the classes as good or evil. Warlocks can be good. But... necro's are evil... cause. Well, necro's summon dead things to life. Nice touch <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" /> Netherlords and Dark Infestation on my Good Warlock don't make her evil...We can go on and on and back and forth. In the end, here's the only reasons anyone can oppose making everyone able to be good or bad:- Roleplay- Lore- Status Quo (example... pallies are always good in every game - unless of course you're on the side fighting against them...)- "Because I don't like change"- "Because its always been this way"- Eq1So... Roleplay. Seriously... RPers need to just shut up and go RP on their own servers. I RP - I have RP'd for years. Playing in one style does NOT mean anyone has to, should, or ever will conform to your play style. If I like PvP, does that mean you must be required to PvP? In fact, how many of you hard core RP folks here play on a pvp server? Not many. Cause who wants to be forced into doing something they don't want to, right? IMHO all RP servers should be RPPvP - we don't want to ruin your immersion...Lore. EQ2 cares about as much for lore as it does for getting GU's correct on the first shot. Lore gets toasted on a daily basis in this game. At least twice a year something comes along from SoE that goes strictly against lore. So lore as a valid argument fails.Status Quo. Really? Do you still make minimum wage? For those of you who are old enough, are you still making $3.75 an hour? Cause if you're that bent about status quo, you should never take a raise... or a different job... or more than one girlfriend... ever... in fact, you should (and probably do) still live with your parents. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" />"Because I don't like change!" Well, I care. Really I do. Glad you level locked all of your characters at level 1. Now go away."Because its always been this way!" Please refer to Lore and Status Quo for the answer to this. Pull your head out folks! The world is passin' you by!Eq1. Using another game to defend your position in this game is beyond silly. While using EQ1 is not as arbitrary as using SWG or WoW as examples, you do realize that for every thing that stayed the same from EQ1 to EQ2 about 10,000 things are different... right?TL<img src="/eq2/images/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" />R VersionGood and evil are arbitrary. Always has been, always will be. I'm sure all of the soldiers in Hitlers army were convinced they were evil...No one actually cares about your reasons for not wanting something to change other than you.Lore is a convenient excuse when it fits your argument - also, knowing this much lore about a video game is just... creepy.</blockquote>First off. the 'Lore' doesn't get 'burned' on a daily basis. honestly the only lore 'burning' we've seen has been Anashti Sul/Theer. that's it. and Anashti Sul lore burning wasn't just her being around, but Aerlick taking the Goddess that was the Prime healer, still thinks she IS the rightful Prime Healer, is plannign to invade Rodcet Nife's realm to take the title of Prime Healer back, and turning her into the most powerful DPS goddess for his own personal gain.secondly. Good vs Evil is NOT subjective in Norrath for 95% of things. there's no RL 'muslim vs infidel' 'christian against non-christian' rheotric. the Gods of norrath are VERY real, they DO actively influence the world, and the forces they represent in 95% of cases are VERY much good or evil.people in Freeport are actively following an undead tyranical creature who's sole desire is everything under his boot. Shadowknights actively follow gods who's sole reason for existance is the creation and spreading of Hate, Fear, Disease, Undeath. (Personally, I woulda made War neutral)Defilers defile the spirits of the dead. they enslave thier anscestors and force them into service and commune with spirits of death, decay and disease.Necromancers raise the dead back as servants and puppets.They're own goal is uaully lichdom, immortailty though undeath. and it's not cutsie vampire raising...no sparkling angsty sexy things. it's night of the living dead zombie things. frankenstien's monster things.A brigand wants to kill you, take your money, and if it's not enough, he'll kill your family and your most distant cousin until it is enough. if your dog has a gold nametag he'll kill that to for the nametag to melt down. Brigands enjoy hurting people, becuase they know hurting you is the best way to get money.Now all that being said...there are neutral classes. you can't make a good warlock persay, but they can be neutral. these are the means justify the ends crowd. Assassins, warlocks, rangers, wizards, guardians, zerkers, furies, wardens. the spin they gave it for temps/inquis was interesting, though abit weak on the templar side. monks/bruisers was pretty much EQ1 lore with the Swifttail caste.you can't make a means justfiy the ends brigand. becuase killing anyone that has fancy jewelry as a means to get rich doesn't float. and that's what a brigand is.a means justify the ends swashy might work if the evil cities weren't the way they are. in freeport and neriak, being a con artist that doesn't want to, and will avoid, killing his quarry will get you killed. either by your own as a weak link, or because someone will stab you just becuase they don't trust your smiling face and it's perfectly allowable to stab someone in the face if there's no militia around or if you got the coin to bribe who is around. in Neriak...hell lying, backstabbing, and arranging 'accidents' are like thier version of football, baseball, and basketball. wonderful past times to participate it as long as you know the rules and how to play. You have to be willing to kill in Neriak.but that's pretty much rp/lore reasons.Mechanics wise, the OP basically just doesn't want to Exile. if he exiles he gets what he wants, he can do all the quests, he can have his evil dps deity. but his complaint is he'll lose 'city privleges'. and what will he lose, that you can't find in a guild hall, since the OP is a raider I can assume he has a guild hall?

Illmarr

09-01-2011, 09:52 PM

<cite>Rainmare@Oasis wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Duckschu wrote:</cite><blockquote>Frankly, most of the people posting here are... not unspecial?Good vs. EvilI didn't see it mentioned in the previous 4 pages of walls of text, but I saw it hinted at a few times. G vs E is always subjective. ALWAYS. When you're on the winning side, you're good. The other guys are evil. When you lose, you're the good guys, and evil cheated.If you want to get into specific LORE examples of good and evil - bicker away until your hearts are content. Its all interpritation and subjective anyway.Beyond Pally / SK there is almost no reason at all to define the classes as good or evil. Warlocks can be good. But... necro's are evil... cause. Well, necro's summon dead things to life. Nice touch <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" /> Netherlords and Dark Infestation on my Good Warlock don't make her evil...We can go on and on and back and forth. In the end, here's the only reasons anyone can oppose making everyone able to be good or bad:- Roleplay- Lore- Status Quo (example... pallies are always good in every game - unless of course you're on the side fighting against them...)- "Because I don't like change"- "Because its always been this way"- Eq1So... Roleplay. Seriously... RPers need to just shut up and go RP on their own servers. I RP - I have RP'd for years. Playing in one style does NOT mean anyone has to, should, or ever will conform to your play style. If I like PvP, does that mean you must be required to PvP? In fact, how many of you hard core RP folks here play on a pvp server? Not many. Cause who wants to be forced into doing something they don't want to, right? IMHO all RP servers should be RPPvP - we don't want to ruin your immersion...Lore. EQ2 cares about as much for lore as it does for getting GU's correct on the first shot. Lore gets toasted on a daily basis in this game. At least twice a year something comes along from SoE that goes strictly against lore. So lore as a valid argument fails.Status Quo. Really? Do you still make minimum wage? For those of you who are old enough, are you still making $3.75 an hour? Cause if you're that bent about status quo, you should never take a raise... or a different job... or more than one girlfriend... ever... in fact, you should (and probably do) still live with your parents. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" />"Because I don't like change!" Well, I care. Really I do. Glad you level locked all of your characters at level 1. Now go away."Because its always been this way!" Please refer to Lore and Status Quo for the answer to this. Pull your head out folks! The world is passin' you by!Eq1. Using another game to defend your position in this game is beyond silly. While using EQ1 is not as arbitrary as using SWG or WoW as examples, you do realize that for every thing that stayed the same from EQ1 to EQ2 about 10,000 things are different... right?TL<img src="/eq2/images/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" />R VersionGood and evil are arbitrary. Always has been, always will be. I'm sure all of the soldiers in Hitlers army were convinced they were evil...No one actually cares about your reasons for not wanting something to change other than you.Lore is a convenient excuse when it fits your argument - also, knowing this much lore about a video game is just... creepy.</blockquote>First off. the 'Lore' doesn't get 'burned' on a daily basis. honestly the only lore 'burning' we've seen has been Anashti Sul/Theer. that's it. and Anashti Sul lore burning wasn't just her being around, but Aerlick taking the Goddess that was the Prime healer, still thinks she IS the rightful Prime Healer, is plannign to invade Rodcet Nife's realm to take the title of Prime Healer back, and turning her into the most powerful DPS goddess for his own personal gain.secondly. Good vs Evil is NOT subjective in Norrath for 95% of things. there's no RL 'muslim vs infidel' 'christian against non-christian' rheotric. the Gods of norrath are VERY real, they DO actively influence the world, and the forces they represent in 95% of cases are VERY much good or evil.people in Freeport are actively following an undead tyranical creature who's sole desire is everything under his boot. Shadowknights actively follow gods who's sole reason for existance is the creation and spreading of Hate, Fear, Disease, Undeath. (Personally, I woulda made War neutral)I'd say that most "people" in Freeport are just trying to eek out a living and avoid attention rather than "actively following" Lucan. I seriously doubt you'd see a spontaneous demonstration of support for Lucan. You'd see one orchestrated by the Guilds of Freeport doing his bidding forcing attendence, but not a voluntary oneDefilers defile the spirits of the dead. they enslave thier anscestors and force them into service and commune with spirits of death, decay and disease.Necromancers raise the dead back as servants and puppets.They're own goal is uaully lichdom, immortailty though undeath. and it's not cutsie vampire raising...no sparkling angsty sexy things. it's night of the living dead zombie things. frankenstien's monster things.Funny, that doesn't seem to be the aim of Paineel Necromancers at all, where the study of Necromancy is seen as a legitimate magical discipline.A brigand wants to kill you, take your money, and if it's not enough, he'll kill your family and your most distant cousin until it is enough. if your dog has a gold nametag he'll kill that to for the nametag to melt down. Brigands enjoy hurting people, becuase they know hurting you is the best way to get money.That may be your definition. It's not mine. Here's Sony's official one copied from the EQ2 Brigand page under player classes:"Brigands are crafty rogues who employ intimidation and force to subdue their enemies. The Brigand maintains an element of unpredictability to arouse discomfort, fear, and confusion in an opponent. Strikes from a Brigand will often leave a foe crippled and vulnerable to further attacks. "I don't see anything in there saying they are homicidal maniacs. You can only rob a dead person once.Now all that being said...there are neutral classes. you can't make a good warlock persay, but they can be neutral. these are the means justify the ends crowd. Assassins, warlocks, rangers, wizards, guardians, zerkers, furies, wardens. the spin they gave it for temps/inquis was interesting, though abit weak on the templar side. monks/bruisers was pretty much EQ1 lore with the Swifttail caste.you can't make a means justfiy the ends brigand. becuase killing anyone that has fancy jewelry as a means to get rich doesn't float. and that's what a brigand is.Again, I'm not buying into the whole "Brigands kill all victims" ethic you subscribe to them, and I see no "official" backup for your position on it so I treat it as solely one person's opinion and not cannon to any lore.a means justify the ends swashy might work if the evil cities weren't the way they are. in freeport and neriak, being a con artist that doesn't want to, and will avoid, killing his quarry will get you killed. either by your own as a weak link, or because someone will stab you just becuase they don't trust your smiling face and it's perfectly allowable to stab someone in the face if there's no militia around or if you got the coin to bribe who is around. in Neriak...hell lying, backstabbing, and arranging 'accidents' are like thier version of football, baseball, and basketball. wonderful past times to participate it as long as you know the rules and how to play. You have to be willing to kill in Neriak.This scenario is true for any "evil" class as well, so it's a reach to use it as a argument against one classbut that's pretty much rp/lore reasons.Mechanics wise, the OP basically just doesn't want to Exile. if he exiles he gets what he wants, he can do all the quests, he can have his evil dps deity. but his complaint is he'll lose 'city privleges'. and what will he lose, that you can't find in a guild hall, since the OP is a raider I can assume he has a guild hall?Why exactly is it such a bad thing? You've never asked for a change that would benefit you personally? </blockquote>You seem to have the roots of your argument in D&D or old EQ1 lore. I can't see how you're ok with an evil Ranger but against an evil Swashbuckler when a Ranger is so much more classically "good" than any Rogue. Personally I don't think they should have made the change they did for the launch of EQ2X, but having thrown out any pretense to classical lore alignments, they should have just thrown them all out.

Oxie

09-01-2011, 10:36 PM

<cite>Rainmare@Oasis wrote:</cite><blockquote>Mechanics wise, the OP basically just doesn't want to Exile. if he exiles he gets what he wants, he can do all the quests, he can have his evil dps deity. but his complaint is he'll lose 'city privleges'. and what will he lose, that you can't find in a guild hall, since the OP is a raider I can assume he has a guild hall?</blockquote>From my understanding, I cannot do world events that are tied to a good or evil city. If I can easily sneak into a city, hail the world event NPC and get the quests from good or evil cities...awesome. If The NPCs shun me and don't give me the quests, then I'm gonna miss out on world event quests.I still want to do evil alignment quests without turning into a brigand. If I'm exile I can't do quests in either city.

Oxie

09-01-2011, 10:49 PM

<cite>Cisteros@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote><blockquote>You seem to have the roots of your argument in D&D or old EQ1 lore. I can't see how you're ok with an evil Ranger but against an evil Swashbuckler when a Ranger is so much more classically "good" than any Rogue. </blockquote></blockquote>This exactly. IMO when they made 8 classes neutral, they should have kept rangers good and assassins evil, and allowed the two rogue classes to be neutral, this would have made more sense to me. I always pictured a ranger to be good aligned and rogues to be more of a neutral class...whether it is EQ-based or from D&D.

Gilasil

09-02-2011, 03:24 PM

I didn't read every word of every reply but I draw the line at evil paladins and good shadowknights.All the way back to when Paladins were first introduced in D&D/Greyhawk (DECADES before EQ1; I just dated myself) they have ALWAYS been the most good of the good. Always. Evil paladins are just ... wrong. Sometimes someone would introduce an anti-paladin class (SoE did and they called it shadowknight), but paladins have always been good. Other classes I wouldn't have too much trouble with (although anything which seems to revil in intimidation and beating people up like bruiser seems a stretch) but not paladin and shadowknight. Assassin also seems a stretch. Perhaps a few others.And if someone is just doing this to get some little buff which is superior to comperable buffs of the other alignment -- the solution is for SoE to fix that imbalance. (MANY times people propose changes not because they feel they'd be better for the game, but because they want to make their own character more powerful whether it's balanced or not. It's just that they can't SAY they want that change because they want to be overpowered so they make up some other reason which sounds better.).What I would like to see is to go back to each city doing its own thing. For example how characters started in Cabilis (evil) were KoS even to other evil cities. They could go farther with that.

Kimber

09-02-2011, 10:50 PM

<cite>Gilasil wrote:</cite><blockquote>I didn't read every word of every reply but I draw the line at evil paladins and good shadowknights.All the way back to when Paladins were first introduced in D&D/Greyhawk (DECADES before EQ1; I just dated myself) they have ALWAYS been the most good of the good. Always. Evil paladins are just ... wrong. Sometimes someone would introduce an anti-paladin class (SoE did and they called it shadowknight), but paladins have always been good. Other classes I wouldn't have too much trouble with (although anything which seems to revil in intimidation and beating people up like bruiser seems a stretch) but not paladin and shadowknight. Assassin also seems a stretch. Perhaps a few others.And if someone is just doing this to get some little buff which is superior to comperable buffs of the other alignment -- the solution is for SoE to fix that imbalance. (MANY times people propose changes not because they feel they'd be better for the game, but because they want to make their own character more powerful whether it's balanced or not. It's just that they can't SAY they want that change because they want to be overpowered so they make up some other reason which sounds better.).What I would like to see is to go back to each city doing its own thing. For example how characters started in Cabilis (evil) were KoS even to other evil cities. They could go farther with that. </blockquote>If you are going to stick it to 2 class's as being only good or evil than it needs to happen to more class's. And as I said above in that case lets stick to the lore all the way. Have fun raiding as good or evil with only access to 16 of the 24 class's. Either that or have fun in exhile which is not a faction.

Felshades

09-03-2011, 12:11 AM

<cite>Tigress wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Ruckus@Unrest_old wrote:</cite><blockquote>Both druid classes could be good or evil at launch.</blockquote>are you sure abt that? i am pretty sure that i picked fury over warden bc it was evil (may 2010). the evil healers had more DPS so i went with the evil one.maybe i'm mistaken, though. wish that i could go back & check ZAM/wikia but they've likely wiped those pages clean.</blockquote>Original neutral classes:Warriors: Guardian, BerserkerDruids: Warden, FuryBards: Troubador, DirgeSorcerors: Wizard, Warlock.Good aligned: Paladin, Mystic, Monk, Templar, Conjurer, Illusionist, Swashbuckler, RangerEvil aligned: Shadowknight, Defiler, Bruiser, Inquisitor, Necromance, Coercer, Brigand, Assassin

Rainmare

09-04-2011, 02:12 AM

actually an evil ranger is easier to see then a 'good' brigand.and evil ranger is one that is for lack of a better term an eco-terrorist or extremist. the 'if you step foot in my woodlands and even so much as step on a caterpillar I'll shoot an arrow between your eyes' type.I just cannot see a way to make a class that by definition wants to take your money and kill you for the sport of doing so in any way good. it's like calling the kid that beats up the other children and takes thier lunch money a good kid. no, they aren't.the only possbile way you could even start to try it is make him go against his own...but then he's not a brigand. a brignad might kill another for a bigger share of the pie, but that doesn't mean hw won't also kill the little old lady or the city gaurd that catches him.

Katanalla

09-04-2011, 11:15 AM

If the lore aspect is such a huge deal, then just do this for the PvE non-rp servers to where every class can be either alignment, and let it stay as is on the RP servers. Alternately, unrestrict the deities - think of it like satanists, closet worshippers or what ever.