Need a Dev Response [Archive] - EQ2 Forum Archive @ EQ2Wire

Buzzing

08-25-2011, 06:29 PM

There is one Question that has become painfuly clear needs to be addressed.What are the tank roles?After seeing the changes to AA I am actually lost for the first time. I have no idea what exactly is my role as a Paladin. I really think we need to know what SOE's idea is for our role. If the classes are working properly I would just like to know what it is we are supposed to be doing. Any proposed changes are only under the players' idea of what our roles are intended to be.Please take this seriously as I am actually looking for an answer and am not asking with any kind of malice or Sarcasm.I will post my generalized list of changes here. I will also update the changes based on peoples posts in the thread.Guardians – Still a viable choice as main tank. Designed as a defensive tank and given the tools to do just that. They have enough positional agro to get a mob back when it is needed until fights last too long (though I don’t actually think that is bad). The DPS of the class is a bit lower than the other tanks but as a general rule they take a bit less damage as well. As a whole, Guardians are a good balancing point. I would actually like to see a bit DPS for desirability reasons but over all still a good tank.Berserkers – The only role I have seen for Berserkers in this expansion is off tank. From what I have seen the class only needs a few changes to bring it back on par. Given that in the past Berserkers have always been a more damage focused class I am going to say that they need to be given a boost in this area. 100% aoe auto attack just isn’t all it used to be. Considering 3 (and some times 4) of the tank classes can out dps a berserker in a single target and still be about the same or higher in an aoe fight, they need a boost to dps or more defensive tools. From what I have read (though I do not ever talk for another class community) the preferred approach would be to increase dps. There is more ways to do this then I care to explain. Although another way to mitigate a huge hit would also increase the desirability in a raid.Shadowknights – Great for groups but the desirability for a raid position has fallen some, still a good choice for an off tank role. Shadowknights at one point were an amazing dps machine and could still keep up with the incoming damage in a raid. This naturally made them very desirable for just about any tank role in a raid. The damage of the class was brought down but the defense of the class remained about unchanged. In current content they can’t withstand damage of the hardest raid content. Again I do not speak for any other class community but from what I can tell the preferred changes would be to increase dps again. Even if this is the case and the damage is increased it would still be great to see one more tool to live through a nasty frontal aoe or death touch.Paladins – Great for groups and easy mode raids but no place for the hardest content. Though in their current state they are the most broken of the classes, very little needs to change in order to fix them. The dps of Paladins is right where it needs to be. However for a defensive tank they can’t survive the damage of the hardest content. Arguably the best at sustaining agro (and undisputed in non ideal situations) they lack in the ability to regain the hate if it is lost. Though a huge pain I would only say they need maybe one more snap in order to fix this. As I am a paladin I would say this is not a huge concern in every fight. Again the biggest flaw of the class is the ability to live threw a series of attacks that land every 45 seconds. Fixing Devine Aura so that it works for the all of the damage and not just the damage less than 50% would actually go a long way to help both the Shadowknight and the Paladin to survive the massive damage in the current content. Another change would still be needed in order to rotate threw the timers of the aoe or death touch (though would not need to be nearly as strong as fixing Devine Aura, maybe just a 2 hit magic only on stonewall as an aa choice or something along those lines). All in all the class only needs a couple of changes to bring them back to a defensive tank in the end game.Bruisers – Great choice for a main tank or an off tank role. All in all I feel Bruisers are very close to where they should be. Slightly less capable than their counterpart of surviving the massive damage of a main tank spot able none the less. Given that fact I do feel a bruiser could use a boost in the dps that can provide to a raid. The class sacrifices a huge portion of their survivability in order to do the extra damage when they would like to. The increase however is not enough of a gain. Simply increase the dps that a Bruiser can provide in the offensive would be a good move.Monks – A great choice for main tank and for off tank. Yes I do understand that it is the current content that has placed the monk in the position that they are in. However I feel that they should remain unchanged. I agree that all the tanks should have chance at landing a role in a raid force. Even though a monk is the best choice for main tank at this point they are still not the best choice for grouping as some of the other classes can tank in a less ideal set up. Don’t change mons, if anything they could use a little more aoe agro to help in heroic content.In summary: (Note that this is scaled based on any changes made to all fighters, so if all fighters get a boost to dps there should still be a reason to pick a dps tank over a defencive tank)Guardian – small boost to dpsBerserker – large increase to dps and a small increase in spike damage survivabilityShadowknight – large increase to dps and a small increase to spike damage survivabilityPaladin – large increase to spike damage survivability and a small increase to snap agroBruiser – small to large increase to offensive dpsMonk – leave them alone or give a little aoe agro controlIt has also been pointed out that most tanks could have a look at there Offensive and Defensive stances so that there is a noticeable diference when switching between them. Another general fighter upgrade would be to make any 100% avoid buffs Strikethrough immune, as it stands there is no garenty that it will actually avoid any attacks in raids. As a whole all fighters need to have there dps increased to be more on par with a T2 dps. This is needed so that there is a real reason to consider the advantages of taking a 4th tank and utilizing the defence that they can add to the raid as apposed to the addition DPS that the T1 DPS classes will offer.All of the above changes are only true if the content remains the same. Changing the content would help in most cases. However I would rather the classes changed to the above as I actually feel the difficulty of raids will scale better if you did.

Anurra

08-25-2011, 06:35 PM

Yes, I would like a dev response on this as well. It would be very helpful. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/e8a506dc4ad763aca51bec4ca7dc8560.gif" border="0" /> I recently came back to the game after a 1.5 year break and I am preplexed.Thanks.

Yimway

08-25-2011, 06:48 PM

You wont like the answer, it will be something like "to keep things pointed at you while everyone kills it".

Buzzing

08-25-2011, 06:53 PM

<cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote>You wont like the answer, it will be something like "to keep things pointed at you while everyone kills it".</blockquote>if that was the case, then I know that striving for equality in the ability to do just that is something worth doing.

Boli32

08-25-2011, 07:32 PM

We're the RP role... I mean for realz!Seriously tho we are the WORST OT, and have WORST survibility in raids vs the hard mobs and some easy mobs.... if you wanna run maths by me feel free but I am right.

Bruener

08-25-2011, 07:35 PM

I can tell you what it should be.MT - Paladin/GuardOT - SK/ZerkCC/Emergency Tank - Bruiser/MonkI can tell you what it is right now with the current messed up mechanics...MT - Monk/Bruiser/GuardOT - Monk/Bruiser/GuardCC/Emergency Tank - Monk/BrusierSo, what needs to be done is to address why things are they way the are currently and what needs to be done to get things back on track.

Buzzing

08-25-2011, 07:37 PM

<cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote>I can tell you what it should be.MT - Paladin/GuardOT - SK/ZerkCC/Emergency Tank - Bruiser/MonkI can tell you what it is right now with the current messed up mechanics...MT - Monk/Bruiser/GuardOT - Monk/Bruiser/GuardCC/Emergency Tank - Monk/BrusierSo, what needs to be done is to address why things are they way the are currently and what needs to be done to get things back on track.</blockquote>The reason I made this post is that I am now not so sure the MT OT and CC roles are what you say. Or if that is what is actually intended.That would be why I would like a reply from someone with a red name.

Boli32

08-26-2011, 07:06 AM

Monks and bruisers have always had snaps and temporary damage immunities Tsunami was the first complete damage immune ability if you remember that far back. What they didn't have until recently was the ability to survive the agro they could hold on the mob for extended periods of time - bascially it was common to see brawlers being one shotted.BUT: They were used, indeed I loved using them in this way - as drag and drop tanks using their snaps and short term damage immunity to pick up stray mobs dump them in the right place - they could even FD for a complete memwipe if they wished. Of course well geared out brawlers could tank in their own right but they were still *slighty* more succeptable to being one-shotted.Fast forward to DoV and the brawlers got the suvibility tools they requested; they could raise their mit pretty high *almost* but not quite as high as a plate tank. they had short term damage reduction which tempered the "double attack death" from mobs so the second attack never hit as hard as the first. Immunity to strikethrough so all their parry/riposte abilities functioned perfectly and also reducing incoming damage; and multiple death saves.They also kept their numerous snaps, and short term damage immunities.In short they were fixed; they had the ability to get agro with their numerous death saves and SURVIVE it... not just for the short term but for the long term.Paladins on the other hand have never really been fixed; at most we have gotten a smattering of sometimes useful abilities sometimes not; there has never been any sort of plan or goal for paladins. What we want... what any class wants is our needs discussed, and addressed not by a group of number crunchers at SoE but by a developer willing to listen and talk us through our concerns.- Our group heal the numbers are too low; no point outside of soloing (funny... a group heal being used to solo...)- the new intercept change can you give us a reason we would EVER find a use for the heal? Who will need a 10% heal 1m40s after an ability is cast on you which by its very design will trigger early if they took any damage? If the heal is meant to be cast on the paladin after they intercept then ok nice idea... but if you intercept damage you use up all your wards and may in fact die and e already have a 10% heal on takign damage.... better to have a bruiser or guardian use intercept... or any class with a stoneskin ability to negate the damage.- our new ward enhancement - our ward is blown through very fast (due to potency omnly being counted for 30%) meaning the TINY debuff is only on average one or two mobs for a very short duartion.... what is the point?- Really... power reductions on heals? - yes we are a power intensive class but this is not going to help us in the long run and every pally will have manalink running 24/7.- What is the point of arch heal... no seriously.. as an endline what possible use does it have and how does it even COMPARE to the other three endlines - its worse than the AAs you took to get it.- Why in an expansion of death touches every 45s is a paladin the *only* class without a reliable stoneskin?- In an expansion of multiple memblurs why are pallys completely shafted when it comes to rescues it is intentional to make us swear so much in raids/groups?- why does divine aura have the 50?% health requirement in raids it is next to useless - it is NOT overpowered other classes have complete immunities for longer times on better recasts- Have you seen the legionaries line on the crusader tree.... the actual increases you get for such a large AA investment to get LC are minimal at best we *used* to have our spell/heal crits on this line and now I never notice a different in my damage or healing capabilities if I spec them or not.What is your role for paladins... where is your vision?Survibility (including magical AoEs/frontals)GuardianMonkBruiserShadowknightBeserkerPaladinAgro control (including memblurs)Monk BruiserGuardianBeserkerShadowknightPaladinGroup/raid buffs (DPS)BeserkerMonkBruiserShadowknightPaladinGuardianSingle/Group/raid buffs (defence)Bruiser (fighter avoid on MT; best intercepts)Monk (fighter avoid on MT)Guardian (temp crit mit buff, 25% temp chance to proc a stoneskin, more health)Beserkers (temp crit mit)Paladin (5% heal potency, mitigation none fighters, temp group mitigation)Shadowknight (Raid health)If you gave 1-6 points in each of those catergories in the order spcified then the totals will be as follows... yes pallys are CLEARLY overpowered....Monk 21Bruiser 19Guardian 15Beserker 13Shadowknight 9Paladin 6

Bruener

08-26-2011, 10:01 AM

Boli32

08-26-2011, 10:54 AM

<cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Boli@Splitpaw wrote:</cite><blockquote>Survibility (including magical AoEs/frontals)GuardianMonkBruiserShadowknightBeserkerPaladinAgro control (including memblurs)MonkBruiserGuardianBeserkerShadowknightPaladinGroup/raid buffs (DPS)BeserkerMonkBruiserShadowknightPaladinGuardianSingle/Group/raid buffs (defence)Bruiser (fighter avoid on MT; best intercepts)Monk (fighter avoid on MT)Guardian (temp crit mit buff, 25% temp chance to proc a stoneskin, more health)Beserkers (temp crit mit)Paladin (5% heal potency, mitigation none fighters, temp group mitigation)Shadowknight (Raid health)If you gave 1-6 points in each of those catergories in the order spcified then the totals will be as follows... yes pallys are CLEARLY overpowered....Monk 21Bruiser 19Guardian 15Beserker 13Shadowknight 9Paladin 6</blockquote>I think this is a good synapsis although I would probably flop SK and Paladin on raid wide DPS buff since HD provides a pretty big boost to raid DPS.But how your numbers rated in ranking is just about where I see the tanks falling in line. Notice that there is a pretty big gap between the top and the bottom. Numbers wise all the tanks should probably be falling at about 15 where Guards are. Hence adjustments needed at the top since mechanics completely favor those 2 classes, and some boosting to the bottom 2 since Zerks probably rose a couple numbers after 61.It would be neat to take those same categories Boli and make the adjustments on where the tanks should be in them to get an even number.</blockquote>Perhaps, but constant 5% spell potency, 10% reuse (group) deathmarch and a better group damage proc count in the SK's favour; plus more debuffs (physcial as well as a magical debuff) all that vs 10s every 3min (~ 2min with recast).The following is *my* view on how *I* would balance tanks:Paladins *should* be joint top or just second in survibility after guardians; and have decent although not flawless agro control; their DPS they deal and grant to the group suffers in this howeverGuardians *should* survive the best; and be able to protect their group; agro should be good but not perfect slightly worse than a pallys agro but do more DPS and protect their group better to compensate.Monks *should* have a high defence but are unmatched in their ability to defend others, their agro control should be average but good snaps.Bruisers *should* have decent tanking ability but excel in snapping up the mobs and bring a solid DPS both in terms of buffs and personal DPS.Beserkers *should* be a war machine in terms of DPS they personally do as well as in buffing their group an average survibility and whilst an average selection of taunts and snaps it is more through dps they hold hate.Shadowknight *should* do the most damage hands down, buff their group up well but bring little in terms of raw suvibility for both their group and themselves - whilst they can protect themselves and tank when required it is not their primary concern.

Bruener

08-26-2011, 11:35 AM

<cite>Boli@Splitpaw wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Boli@Splitpaw wrote:</cite><blockquote>Survibility (including magical AoEs/frontals)GuardianMonkBruiserShadowknightBeserkerPaladinAgro control (including memblurs)MonkBruiserGuardianBeserkerShadowknightPaladinGroup/raid buffs (DPS)BeserkerMonkBruiserShadowknightPaladinGuardianSingle/Group/raid buffs (defence)Bruiser (fighter avoid on MT; best intercepts)Monk (fighter avoid on MT)Guardian (temp crit mit buff, 25% temp chance to proc a stoneskin, more health)Beserkers (temp crit mit)Paladin (5% heal potency, mitigation none fighters, temp group mitigation)Shadowknight (Raid health)If you gave 1-6 points in each of those catergories in the order spcified then the totals will be as follows... yes pallys are CLEARLY overpowered....Monk 21Bruiser 19Guardian 15Beserker 13Shadowknight 9Paladin 6</blockquote>I think this is a good synapsis although I would probably flop SK and Paladin on raid wide DPS buff since HD provides a pretty big boost to raid DPS.But how your numbers rated in ranking is just about where I see the tanks falling in line. Notice that there is a pretty big gap between the top and the bottom. Numbers wise all the tanks should probably be falling at about 15 where Guards are. Hence adjustments needed at the top since mechanics completely favor those 2 classes, and some boosting to the bottom 2 since Zerks probably rose a couple numbers after 61.It would be neat to take those same categories Boli and make the adjustments on where the tanks should be in them to get an even number.</blockquote>Perhaps, but constant 5% spell potency, 10% reuse (group) deathmarch and a better group damage proc count in the SK's favour; plus more debuffs (physcial as well as a magical debuff) all that vs 10s every 3min (~ 2min with recast).The following is *my* view on how *I* would balance tanks:Paladins *should* be joint top or just second in survibility after guardians; and have decent although not flawless agro control; their DPS they deal and grant to the group suffers in this howeverGuardians *should* survive the best; and be able to protect their group; agro should be good but not perfect slightly worse than a pallys agro but do more DPS and protect their group better to compensate.Monks *should* have a high defence but are unmatched in their ability to defend others, their agro control should be average but good snaps.Bruisers *should* have decent tanking ability but excel in snapping up the mobs and bring a solid DPS both in terms of buffs and personal DPS.Beserkers *should* be a war machine in terms of DPS they personally do as well as in buffing their group an average survibility and whilst an average selection of taunts and snaps it is more through dps they hold hate.Shadowknight *should* do the most damage hands down, buff their group up well but bring little in terms of raw suvibility for both their group and themselves - whilst they can protect themselves and tank when required it is not their primary concern.</blockquote>So, here is where I see a huge problem come in....DPS v Survivability.As an example since I am a SK you descripe SKs have having the most damage hands down and buffing their group up well for that as well. Well what is good damage? I mean 10% higher than the other Fighters is still less than 1/2 of T1 DPS. The DPS doesn't matter unless they bring it back to the levels of Fighter DPS that SF had. Where as a SK that played extremely well I could out DPS mediocre T1 DPS classes and be on par with great T2 DPS classes like rogues.If they can't push the DPS to those levels than there is absolutely no point at all being the one with more DPS since raids will only bring Fighters that can tank the best balanced with their agro.There are so many ways you could actually balance Fighters though, and its all just opinions.You could take a spectrum of Agro-----Survivability. On the Agro end would be SKs/Bruisers and on the Survivability end Paladins/Guards. The ones with the most agro which is in the form of DPS since that is what raids really want would be harder to keep up sort of like where SKs are now in survivability. Those at the Survivability end would be easiest to keep up but much harder to maintain agro. The problem is all DPS classes don't want to have to worry about agro and SOE has given hate buffs and transfers to other classes to completely negate the problem. So with the ideal tank set up no Fighter worries about holding hate.Instead you could look at just balancing all Fighters across all types of game play (almost the way I think SOE is doing it and were probably closest to this at the end of SF). This means equal agro and equal survivability over the course of an encounter. The tools would just differ. Like at the end of SF Guards had a lot of Passive/Reactive agro that could rival the agro of a SK that was mostly DPS agro. Survivability tools would differ but balance as well. So Guards get a lot of stoneskins while maybe others get unique saves like Blood Siphon for SKs and Bloodletter.Than there comes the issue of balancing utiliy and the type of utility. I honestly think overall utility balance is pretty close in what Fighters bring. Guards for example bringing defensive utility to their group. SKs bringing some offensive utility. Brawlers bring some of both and hands down the best tank survivability buff for another tank.Further more though than you have to look at the whole ST v AE. Some tools work better on ST, some better on AE. If SOE went back to making content like they did in TSO and SF with lots of swarm adds and some big AE encounters the tools would probably balance out to where they should. The same old same old with one massive ST, or 2 massive ST encounters is old and way way overdone. Even in SF when there was a lot more AE it still was probably 50/50.

LygerT

08-26-2011, 11:52 AM

you won't get a reply here so don't waste your time thinking you will.

Boli32

08-26-2011, 12:02 PM

SKs buffing their group for DPS and being able to do great DPS as well... I think every SK wants that BUT you cannot have the same survibility and agro control of a Guardian for example otherwise why bring a guard? - afterall you get everything they can do and more DPS as well. They should be differences and when I say "less survibility" I mean; less... not pathetic.Say all the content needs a certain number of Stoneskins and death prevents to deal with the incoming damage of:- 1 stoneskin/death prevent every 50sGuardians with their superior tankign skills can run 1 stoneskin/death prevent every 20sPaladins can run 1 stoneskin/death prevent every 25sMonks can run 1 stoneskin/death prevent every 30sBeserkers can run 1 stoneskin/death prevent every 35sBruisers can run 1 stoneskin/death prevent every 40sShadowknight can run 1 stoneskin/death prevent every 45sAnd due to memblurs you need one rescue every 50s alsoBrusiers can manage 1 rescue every 20sMonks can manage 1 rescue every 25sShadowknight can manage 1 rescue every 30sPaladins can manage 1 rescue every 35s Guardians can manage 1 rescue every 40sBeserkers can manage 1 rescue every 45sSo each class *can* do the job but bruisers will find its easier to keep the mob snapped onto them guardians will always have that "little extra" to survive more damage and SKs will have all the tools they need - although the survibility one cuts it fine but they also push out the most DPS out of all the tanks.

Bremer

08-26-2011, 12:13 PM

<cite>Boli@Splitpaw wrote:</cite><blockquote>Group/raid buffs (DPS)BeserkerMonkBruiserShadowknightPaladinGuardian</blockquote>Don't want to nitpick, but Berserkers buff some agi, 0.x Flurry, 0.0x autoattack damge and 30 MA, that very soon will be butchered when not only top raiders, but everyone hits dimishing returns on MA. And you rate that over let's say Combat Mastery?And on topic:I think SOE shouldn't design tanks only for one specific role, they should make all tanks capable of doing anything somewhat comparable and then people can chose whatever tank they want for what ever they want.

Boli32

08-26-2011, 12:24 PM

It was more your new group beserk buff which will stack with your standard group beserk proc if you get +100 DPS mod from that that's ALL autoattack hitting for 10% harder30 MA ofc not vital but its raid wideI *think* you still proc s/c/p on your beserk proc this will now increase min auto-attack damageand ofc the AGI added in as well.It was more the combination of everything rather than one single ability.... either way a zerker/brawler group is going to be the next p!mp thing.

Bruener

08-26-2011, 12:32 PM

Buzzing

08-26-2011, 12:34 PM

<cite>Bremer wrote:</cite><blockquote>And on topic:I think SOE shouldn't design tanks only for one specific role, they should make all tanks capable of doing anything somewhat comparable and then people can chose whatever tank they want for what ever they want.</blockquote>and the replies to this post are a direct reflection of the need for a responce on this. It is not clear what direction SOE is trying to go with tanks. Is it equality or is it a role that needs to be filled in varied ways?All I am asking for is to know what direction the Dev team is trying to go with all tanksI know that class balance is on going and you are working on a solution to all sorts of things in game. However there is absolutely no way that the player base can effectively help in testing or the ongoing balance changes to the Tanks without knwing this fundamental piece of information.

Bremer

08-26-2011, 12:56 PM

<cite>Boli@Splitpaw wrote:</cite><blockquote>It was more your new group beserk buff which will stack with your standard group beserk proc if you get +100 DPS mod from that that's ALL autoattack hitting for 10% harder30 MA ofc not vital but its raid wideI *think* you still proc s/c/p on your beserk proc this will now increase min auto-attack damageand ofc the AGI added in as well.It was more the combination of everything rather than one single ability.... either way a zerker/brawler group is going to be the next p!mp thing.</blockquote>The "new" buff is a 10 second 30 haste/DPS buff, exactly like the normal proc. So the best you can get is temporary 70 DPS/haste. Raidbuffed that's less than 1 % flurry chance and autoattack damage. And the s/c/p on the Berserk proc is 17 pts, less than a treasured adorment. Even combined I would call that pretty useless and anything but the best DPS support from any tank class.

Buzzing

08-26-2011, 01:11 PM

<cite>Bremer wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Boli@Splitpaw wrote:</cite><blockquote>It was more your new group beserk buff which will stack with your standard group beserk proc if you get +100 DPS mod from that that's ALL autoattack hitting for 10% harder30 MA ofc not vital but its raid wideI *think* you still proc s/c/p on your beserk proc this will now increase min auto-attack damageand ofc the AGI added in as well.It was more the combination of everything rather than one single ability.... either way a zerker/brawler group is going to be the next p!mp thing.</blockquote>The "new" buff is a 10 second 30 haste/DPS buff, exactly like the normal proc. So the best you can get is temporary 70 DPS/haste. Raidbuffed that's less than 1 % flurry chance and autoattack damage. And the s/c/p on the Berserk proc is 17 pts, less than a treasured adorment. Even combined I would call that pretty useless and anything but the best DPS support from any tank class.</blockquote>then group/raid buff go to brueser... at this point it wouldn't change much of anything it terms of this thread and why it was created.

Yimway

08-26-2011, 01:41 PM

<cite>Buzzing@Butcherblock wrote:</cite><blockquote>All I am asking for is to know what direction the Dev team is trying to go with all tanks</blockquote>About the time they figure it out, they'll change their mind.

Buzzing

08-26-2011, 01:47 PM

<cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote>About the time they figure it out, they'll change their mind.</blockquote>at least we would know what we should be trying to focus on right now.

Gungo

08-26-2011, 01:48 PM

<cite>Boli@Splitpaw wrote:</cite><blockquote>SKs buffing their group for DPS and being able to do great DPS as well... I think every SK wants that BUT you cannot have the same survibility and agro control of a Guardian for example otherwise why bring a guard? - afterall you get everything they can do and more DPS as well. They should be differences and when I say "less survibility" I mean; less... not pathetic.Say all the content needs a certain number of Stoneskins and death prevents to deal with the incoming damage of:- 1 stoneskin/death prevent every 50sGuardians with their superior tankign skills can run 1 stoneskin/death prevent every 20sPaladins can run 1 stoneskin/death prevent every 25sMonks can run 1 stoneskin/death prevent every 30sBeserkers can run 1 stoneskin/death prevent every 35sBruisers can run 1 stoneskin/death prevent every 40sShadowknight can run 1 stoneskin/death prevent every 45sAnd due to memblurs you need one rescue every 50s alsoBrusiers can manage 1 rescue every 20sMonks can manage 1 rescue every 25sShadowknight can manage 1 rescue every 30sPaladins can manage 1 rescue every 35sGuardians can manage 1 rescue every 40sBeserkers can manage 1 rescue every 45sSo each class *can* do the job but bruisers will find its easier to keep the mob snapped onto them guardians will always have that "little extra" to survive more damage and SKs will have all the tools they need - although the survibility one cuts it fine but they also push out the most DPS out of all the tanks.</blockquote>This is the age old dillema of eq2.If you cant survive as a fighter then why are you a tank.If you cant hold agro as a fighter then why are you a tank.This as always been the issue with tank balance. There comes a point were multiple snaps are unneeded. If a mob mem wipes every 50 secs who cares if a bruiser can snap it back every 20 secs.The flip side was true during ROK. In TSO a guardian was still the best defensive tank but there comes a point where the dps of zerkers and shadowknights made being a guardian with all thier death prevents useless and pure dps was needed.Bottom line is EVERYONE needs to be able to survive tanking in raids, with only slight difference in how they do it. Everyone needs to be able to hold agro with only slight difference in how they do it. Everyone needs to be able to add utility to group/raids in order to have some desireability.Some changes are needed just like the recent zerker love in gu61. I dont think a total rework as you mentioned will solve any of that because there will always be a BEST tank class using your guidelines. I think the idea of 3 aoe tanks bezerker, shadowknight, bruiser with them being slightly better aoe aoe agro and snapsis the way to go. (currently monks and guardians do not have alot of aoe agro abilites, paladins a bit more but not as much as the other 3, and yet monks palains and guards can still tank heroic aoe encounters)Lets call those 3 aoe tanks the offtanks.I think guards, monks and paladins should be considered the single target main tanks and have slightly more defensive temps. (guards and monks are fine in this regard paladins need some dev love)The other issue is the mechanics ALL death saves need to be unmodifiable unless by direct means. This issue is forcing devs to make raids harder by creating content designed to outright kill tanks in order to create dificulty. if a dev wants to balance deaths saves between fighters they can do that through red class adorns and AA abilities directly enhancing these abilities. iiregardless there will always be at least 2-3 fighters who will feel broken because this game was only designed for at most 3-4 fighters in raids. At any given point in time some fighter will be perceived to give to much utility, or to much defense, or to much agro and will be chosen above the classes that are perceived not to have enough.

circusgirl

08-26-2011, 01:49 PM

<cite>Boli@Splitpaw wrote:</cite><blockquote>Survibility (including magical AoEs/frontals)GuardianMonkBruiserShadowknightBeserkerPaladinAgro control (including memblurs)Monk BruiserGuardianBeserkerShadowknightPaladinGroup/raid buffs (DPS)BeserkerMonkBruiserShadowknightPaladinGuardianSingle/Group/raid buffs (defence)Bruiser (fighter avoid on MT; best intercepts)Monk (fighter avoid on MT)Guardian (temp crit mit buff, 25% temp chance to proc a stoneskin, more health)Beserkers (temp crit mit)Paladin (5% heal potency, mitigation none fighters, temp group mitigation)Shadowknight (Raid health)If you gave 1-6 points in each of those catergories in the order spcified then the totals will be as follows... yes pallys are CLEARLY overpowered....Monk 21Bruiser 19Guardian 15Beserker 13Shadowknight 9Paladin 6</blockquote>Okay, I'm not going to deny that brawlers are strong right now, but you're really exaggeratin things here a bit. Lets start with aggro control--brawlers are fantastic at dealing with memblurs, but we are not at all the best at holding aggro against lots of adds (the traditional offtank role). Zerkers, Paladins, Shadowknights and bruisers are all better at AE aggro control than monks, for example. Monks are awesome at holding a single-target through memwipes, but not so good at fights that involve holding lots of adds for a long time. This means we're not quite as high on the Offtank list as you'd say, either (though our snaps do come in handy there). Now lets look at the single/group/raid buffs. Brawlers don't even have a groupwide buff, our raidwide buffs are less good than most other tanks, and you are basing our utility on a single spell which every single other fighter also has. While yes, ours is stronger than most other fighters, this is only true when we are tanking and in defensive stance. If we're dpsing in a third-tank role, then we'll be in offensive stance and our avoidance becomes the lowest of all the fighters. Really, the best avoidance buffs come from crusaders, because they'll be in sword/board no matter whether they're dpsing or tanking so their avoidance buff will always be reliable. Brawlers have awesome survivability with lots of snaps, yes, and we're definitely very powerful, but don't pretend we're the best at everything.

Buzzing

08-26-2011, 01:58 PM

<cite>Gungo@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote>This is the age old dillema of eq2.If you cant survive as a fighter then why are you a tank.If you cant hold agro as a fighter then why are you a tank.This as always been the issue with tank balance. There comes a point were multiple snaps are unneeded. If a mob mem wipes every 50 secs who cares if a bruiser can snap it back every 20 secs.The flip side was true during ROK. In TSO a guardian was still the best defensive tank but there comes a point where the dps of zerkers and shadowknights made being a guardian with all thier death prevents useless and pure dps was needed.Bottom line is EVERYONE needs to be able to survive tanking in raids, with only slight difference in how they do it. Everyone needs to be able to hold agro with only slight difference in how they do it. Everyone needs to be able to add utility to group/raids in order to have some desireability.Some changes are needed just like the recent zerker love in gu61. I dont think a total rework as you mentioned will solve any of that because there will always be a BEST tank class using your guidelines. I think the idea of 3 aoe tanks bezerker, shadowknight, bruiser with them being slightly better aoe aoe agro and snapsis the way to go. (currently monks and guardians do not have alot of aoe agro abilites, paladins a bit more but not as much as the other 3, and yet monks palains and guards can still tank heroic aoe encounters)Lets call those 3 aoe tanks the offtanks.I think guards, monks and paladins should be considered the single target main tanks and have slightly more defensive temps. (guards and monks are fine in this regard paladins need some dev love)The other issue is the mechanics ALL death saves need to be unmodifiable unless by direct means. This issue is forcing devs to make raids harder by creating content designed to outright kill tanks in order to create dificulty. if a dev wants to balance deaths saves between fighters they can do that through red class adorns and AA abilities directly enhancing these abilities. iiregardless there will always be at least 2-3 fighters who will feel broken because this game was only designed for at most 3-4 fighters in raids. At any given point in time some fighter will be perceived to give to much utility, or to much defense, or to much agro and will be chosen above the classes that are perceived not to have enough.</blockquote>all of this is still under the assumption that SOE has intended for all tanks to have an equal role in raids and group content. The current state of tank balance however dictates otherwise. I would be happy if we said Guardians, Paladins and Monks are single target defensive tanks and designed to be MT in raids. That Berserkers, Shadowknights and Bruisers are multi-target offensive tanks and by design are intended for the OT role in raids. This would also mean that all tanks should be able to tank instances successfully. Really it is all speculation without some kind of direction from the Dev team to guide us in our assumptions.

circusgirl

08-26-2011, 02:20 PM

<cite>Buzzing@Butcherblock wrote:</cite><blockquote>all of this is still under the assumption that SOE has intended for all tanks to have an equal role in raids and group content. The current state of tank balance however dictates otherwise. I would be happy if we said Guardians, Paladins and Monks are single target defensive tanks and designed to be MT in raids. That Berserkers, Shadowknights and Bruisers are multi-target offensive tanks and by design are intended for the OT role in raids. This would also mean that all tanks should be able to tank instances successfully. Really it is all speculation without some kind of direction from the Dev team to guide us in our assumptions. </blockquote>You have to be careful with that kind of thing--its basically what they did in TSO, and TSO was by far the worst balance this game has ever seen. What made it so unbalanced was every bit as much how content was designed with a very heavy AE focus as it was the actual mechanics.

Gungo

08-26-2011, 02:39 PM

<cite>Buzzing@Butcherblock wrote:</cite><blockquote>all of this is still under the assumption that SOE has intended for all tanks to have an equal role in raids and group content.The current state of tank balance however dictates otherwise.I would be happy if we said Guardians, Paladins and Monks are single target defensive tanks and designed to be MT in raids. That Berserkers, Shadowknights and Bruisers are multi-target offensive tanks and by design are intended for the OT role in raids. This would also mean that all tanks should be able to tank instances successfully.Really it is all speculation without some kind of direction from the Dev team to guide us in our assumptions. </blockquote>I dont think you will get direction unless it is a simple answer such as all tanks should be able to tank any heroic zone and raid. Which will not be the answer you need because some tanks will be better in certain situation then others.I also think tanks are fairly balanced, but some small mechanic changes are needed. Strikethrough is a badly designed idea. What we needed was a buff on raid npcs that lowered uncontested avoidance by a set amount that did not effect total avoidance buff. Not an ability that garauntees a set % of auto atks to hit. This would naturally keep tanks seeking more and more uncontested avoidance instead of basically breaking every avoid temp buff in game and garaunteeing fighters will always be hit a certain amount. If the devs wanted certain attacks to be garaunteed hits they already had that option with raid npcs able to cast 100% hit rate combat arts.Secondly is the death save issue which started with shadowknights in TSO able to have a permenantly up 3 trigger death save which at the time was sufficient enough since raids did not have the current trend of death prevent or die mechanics. What ended up happening was the raid developers started to script abilities that were so powerful theyintended to kill your tank enough to strip these death prevention buffs in order to establish challenge. While the brawlers death prevent is not permanat with enough AA's and a focus on reuse it is up a very long time with multiple triggers. This needs to be stopped for the health of the game. ALL death prevents need to be unmodifiable unless by direct means. Long duration death prevents are fine if the tank with those abilites natrually take more damage since they are the most likely to die anyway, but even those should never be maintainable for extended periods of time.The above two issues are the brawlers biggest benefits in game currently and are the two issues I see ruining tank balance right now.Of course there is still a need for individual class changes and balance suc as paladins needing a reliable stone skin ability so they can not only compete with gaurds/monks but able to tank the current content.

Gungo

08-26-2011, 02:42 PM

<cite>Vinka@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Buzzing@Butcherblock wrote:</cite><blockquote>all of this is still under the assumption that SOE has intended for all tanks to have an equal role in raids and group content.The current state of tank balance however dictates otherwise.I would be happy if we said Guardians, Paladins and Monks are single target defensive tanks and designed to be MT in raids. That Berserkers, Shadowknights and Bruisers are multi-target offensive tanks and by design are intended for the OT role in raids. This would also mean that all tanks should be able to tank instances successfully.Really it is all speculation without some kind of direction from the Dev team to guide us in our assumptions. </blockquote>You have to be careful with that kind of thing--its basically what they did in TSO, and TSO was by far the worst balance this game has ever seen. What made it so unbalanced was every bit as much how content was designed with a very heavy AE focus as it was the actual mechanics.</blockquote>To be fair the content was is much to blame and ideally the raid developers should allow a mix of aoe and single target content in any given expansion, but SOE tends to grab an idea and stick with it every expansion be it control effects, to a cure fest, to curses, to coop strike/class based debuffs.Also the reason the more AOE oriented classes are not as needed this expansion has alot to do with the fact there is VERY few aoe encounters in this expansion. So naturally shadowknights, zerkers,and to a smaller extent bruisers/paladins are less needed.

Bruener

08-26-2011, 03:34 PM

<cite>Vinka@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>You have to be careful with that kind of thing--its basically what they did in TSO, and TSO was by far the worst balance this game has ever seen. What made it so unbalanced was every bit as much how content was designed with a very heavy AE focus as it was the actual mechanics.</blockquote>DoV is by far way worse than TSO was when it comes to how OP'd a Fighter class is in relation to others. There is a ton of content that is killed by Brawlers tanking that can't be killed by any other Fighter until it goes through nerfs. It has never been like that.Brawlers in DoV are worse than SKs in TSO and even worse than Mythical Guards in RoK.Really it seems that SOE rolls out the content "unkillable" and plan on making adjustments to make it killable for progression. But than guilds just Brawler-push through it.Tanking in Sullons EM last night I can tell you that the strike thru adjustment on mobs was not nearly enough. As a SK I was getting destroyed in the upper end on the trash boar mobs. I died multiple times from strike thru while using Furor during that mess as well.

Buzzing

08-26-2011, 05:01 PM

<cite>Gungo@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote>I dont think you will get direction unless it is a simple answer such as all tanks should be able to tank any heroic zone and raid. Which will not be the answer you need because some tanks will be better in certain situation then others.</blockquote>Actually even this answer would give everyone an idea of where we need to be. If the responce is that all tanks should be able to tank instances and raids, there is a huge gap that needs to change in the class design or in the mechanics of raids.

Faildozer

08-26-2011, 11:10 PM

I like the discussion and what boli was illustrating with his point system was a simplistic overview. Im sure everybody is aware that brawlers are not the instant win button when it comes to tanking but they are definately in the best spot this expansion. I think that if the devs want to keep the deathtouches or the massive incoming aoe damage the same to make a fight challenging, that is fine, but all tanks need to have enough tools to counter that. Paladins are really lacking in this area and increasing the amount I heal for isnt going to prevent a 1 shot or the lack of a stoneskin on demand. Paladins arent the only ones with this issue. Berserkers and Shadowknights need a lot of love in terms of defensive temps.The memwipes are a little ridiculous in this expansion. Rescues either need to be reworked or certain classes need better or more reliable ones. Paladins only have 3 rescues and that was because holy ground used to be a full 24position increase, now that it is only a 1 position increase we are left in a pretty rough spot with how many memwipes and instadeaths their are now.DPS for tanks is pretty much garbage right now. It can spike real high but our ca's just dont hit that hard and so the t1 and t2 dps are scaling MUCH better. Im ok if they dont want tanks to be topping parses but either fix how we generate threat or uncap hate xfers and add a lot more hate gain items into the game. As far as dps between the tanks i think its important that some do more than others but at the cost of some survivability because it would make it pointless to bring a defensive tank that does a lot less dps and offers only the same survivability. Right now its pretty much a crapshoot and everybody is bad, some are just worse dps.Anyway, i dont expect a dev response here or in any of the numerous threads outlining with great detail and offering great suggestions on each of the class boards. After the quagmire that was gu61 being released in the state it was despite a lot of people in testing letting them know how borked the GU was they released it anyway. This staff really does not have a direction nor does it care to listen or even acknowledge the playerbase that is offering good feedback and suggestions that they can use.

Anurra

08-27-2011, 12:57 AM

Paladins have 3 snaps: Rescue: 3 hate positions to a single target on a base 5 minute timer. Sneering Assault: 3 hate positions to a single target on a 3 minute timer. Holy Ground: 1 hate position to targets in area of affect and a 90 second timer. This is fine if the mobs don't mem wipe. And the current incantation of holy ground is great. I like it and it has some very good uses. However, the OLD version of holy ground (in other words, the current version of holy ground does not fix that) was our way of dealing with mem wiping monsters (it was also a very good OT tool). This expansion's raids seems to be FULL of mem wiping mobs. We just don't have an easy way to deal with large amount of mem wiping monsters. I've used rescue and sneering assault after being mem wiped and it pretty much accomplished nothing. Why even give them to me? (Yes, I did DPS before hand to raise up a few positions. Rising up 4 or 5 and then going up another 6 from my two snaps does not equal to the top of the hate list when there are over 24 positions being kept track of). I had to buy a 90 platinum earring off of the broker that procs 1 hate position to help mitigate mem wiping monsters. If I see the ire proc adornment from zek for sale in the auction channel, I'll probably put 200 plat down for it (send Lawrs a tell on Permafrost if you are selling it). Seems a bit drastic to me. Also, Paladins do NOT have a LONG ranged hate position ability. The OLD holy ground used to be used long range, as well. Cast holy ground and then faithful cry, for example. Just for a comparison: The monk gets rescue AND sneering assault, and some other hate positional abilities. One of them is called Hidden Opening (90 second timer.), which raises the hate position by 5. If you add up the TOTAL amount of positionals Paladins have...it comes out to 7. A Monk's single ability is 5, and it accounts for 71% of the TOTAL amount of positionals Paladin's have. I'm not trying to pick on Monk's. I think they are great and am glad they have finally found a use/cause. I don't want them to get nerfed (or any class)... But, the Paladins really need a boost and I hope that is apparent. I've never had class envy until this expansion and I've been playing a Paladin for a long time. But, as usual SoE ign......., well, this thread is supposed to be less flamey, so I'll end it here.I wish the devs would play a Paladin on raids and talk to raiding Paladins. Things would become much clearer then.

BChizzle

08-27-2011, 09:20 AM

Here we go again more QQ from people who don't even know how the classes work where have I seen this before, oh right every other thread on this forum.

Eudidimuss

08-27-2011, 09:42 AM

Seriously I don't understand why you as a pally are complaining about snaps and reuse. Your class has the best aggro tool ingame period, slap amends on your raid Brigg and you could almost go afk while tanking. I belive it's why your class doesnt have as many snaps as the other classes. But that's my opinion...

Boli32

08-27-2011, 10:10 AM

Amends is... and always has been simply a Hate over time spell.HOWEVER every tank with the right group setup can reach the 50% transfer cap - amends on top of that only skews how much % hate you'll recieve from each player or sometimes the ability to amend the dirge in a 3 healer group is handy at times.BUT THEN - the hate you receive through amends is not a constant stream.. it is entirely based on if your target is alive/able to DPS and DPSig the correct mob and you as a tank has no real control over it; the same goes true for *any* transfer whcih *any* tank can reach the cap with a well structured group.AT BEST it allows some flexibilty as a paladin is not restricted in who is being the MT transfer (I personally prefer rangers) but just because we have this flexibility doesn't mean we should be restricted in other means of hate generation which we are currently.ALL raids will be built with transfers in mind. 99% of the time the fact we actually *have* amends means little.. and in some cases nothing.

Eudidimuss

08-27-2011, 10:37 AM

If your so worried about your amends target taking a dirt nap, choose a brig not a dirge. A well played Brig can stay in and have their aoe blocker a ton of time, where a dirdge dont or can't.Besides all tanks have an issue with hate dumps and blurs, some more than others. But you do have an OT to pick it up when your out of snaps, or burn them all trying to reach the top of the hate list in half of a second. So I still don't see your point asking what our rolls as a tank are.

Boli32

08-27-2011, 11:24 AM

You missed the entire point.. and nice to have someone register for these forums just to say you have amends its the "most powerful spell in game" don't give these pallys anythgin else.If you don't know how it works or how utterly depdant on other classes pallys are both for suvival (warden death prevents) or hate (brig, ranger, swash, assaisn, whatever) compared to every other tank then please stop trying to derail this. Amends has not been the only tool needed for agro for a very VERY long time. Memblurs make it as useful as urinating into the wind.

Anurra

08-27-2011, 11:27 AM

Amends is not a 100% guarantee. If your amends target does something stupid, or just plain stinks (because that is all you have during that particular raid), or isn't paying attention, attacks the wrong monster, or gets killed due to an AE at some part in the script, or gets knockbacked...oh, see? Amends does very little for mem wiping monsters as Boli said (hate over time). If I go from position 1 to 24-30 on the hate list. It is going to take forever for me to climb it without any snaps, even with amends. What if the mob mem wipes me and then turns and 1 shots my amends target? What if the next DPS in my group stinks for amends? What then? See – it isn't as rosy when you take into consideration when things that can happen, actually does happen. The only thing I can do is watch as the mob eats many people. There are three main parts to holding aggro:1. Generating aggro over time through DPS, taunts, other abilities.2. When a DPS rips the mob from you and how you react using your tools (rescue, for example).3. When a mob mem wipes the tank. Right now, Paladins are just fine at number 1 and 2. It is 3 where they are lacking. I was trying to make that point out with my above post in reference to the old holy ground and how it was the tool for us to deal with mem wiping monsters. I don't want other classes to get nerfed. I'm from the camp that you should raise up other classes rather than knock them down.

ZUES

08-27-2011, 11:55 AM

You know whats sad? Swashies get more hate/threat than zerkers do if they choose to spec for it. Where's the zerker hate, threat and snaps? Cmon devs.

Eudidimuss

08-27-2011, 12:16 PM

You have all of those abilities, we all do to some extent. What i'm getting out of this is what the guards were complaining about in SF, that they should be the end all be all tank. And what did it get the zerkers, nailed with the nerf bat along with the sk's. Oh and BTW I have been reading these forums for quite a while, I just never felt the need to reply to someone going on like they are the red headed step child when they aren't untill now.

Bruener

08-27-2011, 01:48 PM

<cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite><blockquote>Here we go again more QQ from people who don't even know how the classes work where have I seen this before, oh right every other thread on this forum.</blockquote>Are you starting to get the hint yet? Or are you going to keep denying how messed up Fighter balance really is. The best thing you could do is what you have been doing the last couple weeks and that would be not post anywhere and enjoy your OP'd class while you can and pray that when the nerf hammer drops that they don't do to you what they did to Crusaders going into DoV.

Faildozer

08-27-2011, 02:56 PM

Edi.. where are you seeing anybody saying pallies should be the end all be all tank? What we are asking for is help with snaps which affects all tanks but all tanks have more snaps than pallies and like everybody else has said amends does nothing for help getting mobs back. We also have no reliable stoneskins or way to help avoid massive amounts of incoming damage which all other tanks have. We arent asking to be unkillable or for something that is up every single round of aoes but we definately need some controlled way to mitigate large amounts of incoming damage especially with the increase of unavoidable deathtouches.You coming in here trying to derail the thread with your ignorant views on how you perceive another class being OP'd isnt going to help anybody out. If you have concerns with your class and reasonable ideas on solutions, post them but dont register and post here just to derail a thread.

Eudidimuss

08-27-2011, 06:26 PM

You coming in here trying to derail the thread with your ignorant views on how you perceive another class being OP'd isnt going to help anybody out. If you have concerns with your class and reasonable ideas on solutions, post them but dont register and post here just to derail a thread.This is laughable at best,Amends is not a 100% guarantee. If your amends target does something stupid, or just plain stinks (because that is all you have during that particular raid), or isn't paying attention, attacks the wrong monster, or gets killed due to an AE at some part in the script, or gets knockbacked...oh, see?Thats is purely conjecture, if your amends target don't know they have amends on them then its not your fault. Isn't partly your responsibility as with person you put amends on to be attacking the same thing? Shouldn't they be assisiting thru you?Look if pallys need something other than amends why on you ask to have that deleted from your class and ask for more snaps? wouldnt that be more fair than the other classes who dont have such "class defining abilitys"?

LygerT

08-27-2011, 06:26 PM

while the most tanks seem to be doing better balance wise this expansion than most others, there seem to be the same amount of opinionated people, however they have even stronger opinions now.

Eudidimuss

08-27-2011, 06:30 PM

<cite>Lyger@Permafrost wrote:</cite><blockquote>while the most tanks seem to be doing better balance wise this expansion than most others, there seem to be the same amount of opinionated people, however they have even stronger opinions now.</blockquote>I do agree with that.

Faildozer

08-27-2011, 07:02 PM

Edi, are you really not getting it? The issue that you seem to be caught up on is amends as your perceive it is overpowered. When it comes to memwipes amends does very little to help us get the mob back. Again, every tank can be hate xfer capped if they are in a good tank group but you seem to be ignoring that fact for some reason. You come across as bitter and just wanting to derail a thread because you feel slighted for not having gods gift to tanks when everybody else that has posted seems to agree that pallies, zerkers and SK's need some help.

LygerT

08-27-2011, 09:10 PM

every tank is having issues with snaps, not just pallies. being one snap short doesn't break the class, having too many memwipes, deathtouches with unavoidable deathsaves, and tanks who cannot actually hit mobs consistently is a groupwide issue.

Boli32

08-27-2011, 10:32 PM

LygerT

08-27-2011, 11:04 PM

<cite>Boli@Splitpaw wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Lyger@Permafrost wrote:</cite><blockquote>every tank is having issues with snaps, not just pallies. being one snap short doesn't break the class, having too many memwipes, deathtouches with unavoidable deathsaves, and tanks who cannot actually hit mobs consistently is a groupwide issue.</blockquote>I can admit and I don't mind pally snap agro *is* an issueHOWEVER when we tank mobs with greater agro control (brawlers) it becomes an issue.At the end of the day pally SHOULD survive better... but we do not...</blockquote>again, you're not the only ones in that boat. perhaps voice your discontent to the developers for constantly flip flopping the power struggle between tanks.zerks finally got a little bit but i'm still not happy with the result, after moaning for about a month straight and listening to the others complain for much longer about how uber brawlers are in DoV, while we have nothing that is really class specific any longer except for adrenaline, which isn't as great as it used to be.

Buzzing

08-27-2011, 11:11 PM

really all of the argueing in this thread just means we still need a dev responce that will let us know in general what the roles are supposed to be.everything I would say in any form would depend on what it is that each tank role is intended to fill.

The_Cheeseman

08-28-2011, 12:36 AM

SOE is never going to just come out and tell us what player-invented "role" each tank class is "meant" to fill, because they very likely have no intention of confining the classes into such limited niches. Every fighter class is meant to be a tank, not a "main tank" or an "off tank" or an "emergency tank", just a tank. Personally, as a brawler, I always hated the label "emergency tank" because all it said to me was, "You are the tank who isn't good enough to tank full-time, but we'll keep you around for when the real tank is screws up and let you have some fun until we get him back up and running." Screw that, I want to be the real tank, not some schmuck who just fills the gap while the "better" tank is out of commission.The problem is that we have six tanks classes, and each tank class has different abilities. As long as each tank class plays differently, there will be certain situations where a given tank will function better than others. DoV tends to include a lot of content that caters to brawler strengths. Brawlers are primarily avoidance based, which leads to streaky incoming damage and one-shots, so we have a very powerful deathsave and several temporary melee immunity buffs. These were meant to offset our lower overall damage mitigation abilities due to weaker armor. Unfortunately, mitigation on most tanks these days is so high into the curve that the tiny differences between brawlers and plate tanks isn't really very relevant anymore. Combined with the fact that DoV MOBs seem to hit like trucks and can often one-shot even plate tanks, and suddenly none of a brawler's weaknesses are really significant anymore. Even a monk's weaker AoE aggro isn't a problem, because DoV encounters are mostly single target.In other words, tank balance will never be perfect, because there will always be bias based on the state of the current relevant content. If there were more encounters that required consistent AoE aggro generation, Monks would have issues in those situations. If MOBs weren't all hitting so hard that higher mitigation values were mostly irrelevant, plate tanks would have an advantage in survivability again. It's the reason why tank balance seems to flip-flop every year as new expansions are released, because as the relevant content changes, the perceived "best" tank classes change to match it.It would help if somebody in charge of itemization and encounter design knew what the heck they were doing, too. Maybe we wouldn't wind up with such a massive fustercluck of over- and under-powered MOBs, gear, and class abilities.

BChizzle

08-28-2011, 01:20 AM

<cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite><blockquote>Here we go again more QQ from people who don't even know how the classes work where have I seen this before, oh right every other thread on this forum.</blockquote>Are you starting to get the hint yet? Or are you going to keep denying how messed up Fighter balance really is. The best thing you could do is what you have been doing the last couple weeks and that would be not post anywhere and enjoy your OP'd class while you can and pray that when the nerf hammer drops that they don't do to you what they did to Crusaders going into DoV.</blockquote>Cry more, brawlers just got nerfed by devs getting rid of strikethrough buffs off of the x2 debuff yet you are still crying. Take away coop strike and a crusader can tank everything including adds.

LygerT

08-28-2011, 01:37 AM

better yet, combine down into 3 tank classes.result would be less complaints about balance, but only slightly more about "i loved my monk, i didn't want to just be a 'brawler'".overall i do think it is the lesser of 2 evils at this point in time in the game's lifespan. i have always been a devoted berserker but if i could have the strengths of both zerk and guardian it would certainly leave less to complain about. same for crusaders and brawlers which regardless are still VERY similar negatives due to blending of the lines over time.everyone's opinion on their class is subjective so the best you can ask for is a basic class description which is already listed upon character creation.

circusgirl

08-28-2011, 02:40 AM

<cite>Lyger@Permafrost wrote:</cite><blockquote>every tank is having issues with snaps, not just pallies. being one snap short doesn't break the class, having too many memwipes, deathtouches with unavoidable deathsaves, and tanks who cannot actually hit mobs consistently is a groupwide issue.</blockquote>You're hitting on something pretty key here: it's not the classes, it's the content.Most of the things that people are complaining about brawlers having (mitigation, deathsave, strikethrough immunity, superior riposte & Inner Focus, etc.) we've had since SF or TSO. Not much has actually changed with Velious. All we actually received this expansion is:<ul><li>Combat Mastery, which while a fun dps buff doesn't make us any better at tanking.</li><li>An extremely short term damage reduction buff which under absolutely ideal conditions can only be up 30% of the time, and which cannot be controlled by the player at all.</li><li>Inner focus is up slightly more</li><li>An increase to Tenacity's duration and a third trigger.</li></ul><div>And...that's it. That's really all we got this expansion. I still have less mitigation than I did in SF. Now, nobody ever said we were overpowered in Sentinel's Fate. So what makes us so strong now? It's not mitigation or strikethrough immunity or inner focus--we had all that stuff well before anyone thought we were overpowered. Tenacity plays a part, sure, but more than anything it's the content.</div><div></div><div>It was adds with cooperative strike killing plate tanks before the OTs could snap them off.</div><div>It was nameds whose fail conditions included a big bag of strikethrough that didn't affect brawlers.</div><div>It was predominantly single-target encounters, where having aggro on more than one mob means death.</div><div></div><div>That's what made brawlers overpowered. The content, not the mechanics. And the solution is to fix the content, not the mechanics...and that's exactly what the devs have ben doing. You now have 6 seconds to grab an add before cooperative strike kicks in. They just removed strikethrough from the fail-condition buffs. And I don't know if you've noticed, but the new drunder and plane of war content has its fair share of multi-target tanking. The hardmode aviak encounter in Elements of War kicked my sorry monk behind all over the place while a zerker, shadowknight, or paladin with an AE class to amends would have done brilliantly. None of these changes have touched the abilities on my hotbar, but each and every one of them has shrunk the gap between plate tanks and brawlers. </div>

Faildozer

08-28-2011, 03:26 AM

i do agree with you vinka, but they either need to fix the content or give each of the classes enough to combat it. The overabundance of memwipes is rough, 1 more snap or changing holy ground would actually go a long way. Pallies also still need a way to help combat the massive spike damage in this expansion. I am not asking to be the FOTM class, but the so called 'survivability' that we have comes mostly from the fact we have heals which in 99% of the time do nothing for us and we are balanced around having amends which doesnt help us against mem wipes or getting threat back after a death touch.Im not saying the pally class is broken but it needs some much needed attention to address some of the big issues tanks are facing this xpac.

Landiin

08-28-2011, 05:28 AM

I find it funny that when SK where on top of the world Bruener screamed and yelled tanks balanced better then ever before. Now they they are not the king of all he is complaining about tank balance. But to the point, Tanks will never be balanced in this game. There is simply to many of them with every one of them wanting the spotlight. The EQ2 team don't have the balls to do what needs to be done so just get use to king of tanks being rotated through each subclass.

Bremer

08-28-2011, 09:15 AM

<cite>Vinka@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>You're hitting on something pretty key here: it's not the classes, it's the content.</blockquote>Hardhitting raid mobs has been the raid content since T5, not since Velious. If this expansion was SF and all tanks had the same abilities people would still pick a Guard or Monk or Bruiser, because they have tons of stuff for damage immunites. Even if it was TSO they'd pick the same classes to handle Deathtouches, etc.The balance in SF was ok, maybe Guards were lacking and Berserkers having only one defensive ability was pretty stupid design. But then they nerfed the crap out of Adrenaline and made Berserkers worthless to deal with hard hitting mobs. They changed Crusader's LC so that you couldn't modify the recast, they removed the SK cheat for 3 Bloodletter triggers and gave Crusaders bad AAs. So 3 classes stagnate or fall, Guardians get better and Brawlers, that were already very good MT choices got boosts with more physical mitigation, more stoneskins, more DI, more DPS support.When you are on almost even playing field and 3 classes get boosts and 3 not it's not the content that favors 3 classes.

circusgirl

08-28-2011, 11:01 AM

<cite>Faildozer@Permafrost wrote:</cite><blockquote>i do agree with you vinka, but they either need to fix the content or give each of the classes enough to combat it. The overabundance of memwipes is rough, 1 more snap or changing holy ground would actually go a long way. Pallies also still need a way to help combat the massive spike damage in this expansion. I am not asking to be the FOTM class, but the so called 'survivability' that we have comes mostly from the fact we have heals which in 99% of the time do nothing for us and we are balanced around having amends which doesnt help us against mem wipes or getting threat back after a death touch.Im not saying the pally class is broken but it needs some much needed attention to address some of the big issues tanks are facing this xpac.</blockquote>They are obviously working to fix the content though, and like I said there have been several de facto brawler nerfs that have been brought in via content changes lately. As for memwipes, where are you having issues? The trash mobs in Throne of Storms memwipe constantly and are an obnoxious pita, but most other mobs seem to be fairly reasonable about it. Paladins do need some fixes. I really hope they give you another snap with the next expansion, and that they change the hate transfer cap to be on the dps classes instead of the tank (so you can't take more than 50% of the hate of any individual dps, but CAN have more tan 50% hate coming in to the paladin if it comes from multiple sources).And yeah, they need to put strikethrough immunity on all tsunami-type buffs.

Boli32

08-28-2011, 11:09 AM

Ability to surive and tank mobs >>>>> any sort of hate fixes.One is merely frustrating the other removes the reason for a pally to even BE in any sort of serious raid force.

Zergosch

08-28-2011, 11:14 AM

well, i am a paladin, i do mt without any real problem all the way down from easy to hard (as far as i can get).sure it would help if there is some snap agro spell.... but i can life without, at least today (if i got a good amends target).the dps.... well could be better, can be worse (well im full raidgeared with agro proc rune, yes the rune does a good job).so far... i play the paly since start eq2 and never intend to switch.

Faildozer

08-28-2011, 11:25 AM

the only time im running into a major issue with rescues getting people in the raid killed is on fights where the OT's are fights like kraytoc HM after ports or where if i die and i have to get threat back asap and there are only so many things we can do. Right now i stack ire procs from this xpac and last on fights where i know it is going to be an issue but being procs i have no control over them and when they are going to work.Talking about rescues was never really the main point i was trying to get across but it became the focal point of the thread when edi derailed it. Having limited rescues really isnt game breaking but with the added deathtouches and mem wipes this xpac another rescue or reworking one of our current rescues would be huge. I could live without any rescue changes if they gave us even a magical stoneskin on our stonewall ability which right now really doesnt do anything for us.

LygerT

08-28-2011, 01:20 PM

<cite>Bremer wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Vinka@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>You're hitting on something pretty key here: it's not the classes, it's the content.</blockquote>Hardhitting raid mobs has been the raid content since T5, not since Velious. If this expansion was SF and all tanks had the same abilities people would still pick a Guard or Monk or Bruiser, because they have tons of stuff for damage immunites. Even if it was TSO they'd pick the same classes to handle Deathtouches, etc.The balance in SF was ok, maybe Guards were lacking and Berserkers having only one defensive ability was pretty stupid design. But then they nerfed the crap out of Adrenaline and made Berserkers worthless to deal with hard hitting mobs. They changed Crusader's LC so that you couldn't modify the recast, they removed the SK cheat for 3 Bloodletter triggers and gave Crusaders bad AAs. So 3 classes stagnate or fall, Guardians get better and Brawlers, that were already very good MT choices got boosts with more physical mitigation, more stoneskins, more DI, more DPS support.When you are on almost even playing field and 3 classes get boosts and 3 not it's not the content that favors 3 classes.</blockquote>i think we have a winner.

Eudidimuss

08-28-2011, 01:33 PM

What I don't understand is that from what I have been reading in other posts, you hear some pallys praise amends and other threads like this one basically it's at best unreliable. And the brawler class is so OP due to it's 4 snaps. Believe it or not the zerker class has 4 positional snaps as well. And In the right order I can get back on top of the hate list fairly quickly, from a hate dump. And in the event I am not able to my OT will grab it, (which is a pally btw) Until I have a snap up. Now I'm not saying the pally needs one more or not. Or which class is perceived to be broken or not either. Each tank has their good points and bad points. And faildozer saying I derailed the thread stating the facts, is a bit low isn't it? I am telling you that you needing to be at the top of the agro list after an agro dump is absurd. When you can use two tanks to bounce the agro back and forth between the tanks. But you come on and whine about having not enough snaps. Asking for more would lead to the pally being OP'ed wouldn't it?

LygerT

08-28-2011, 01:46 PM

and so do guards..i can see that being one snap shy of all the rest would make life more difficult but most can figure out ways of dealing without. so long as the rest of the class is deemed ok, which doesn't appear to be the case with paladins, SK or zerkers still.give paladins the one snap they lack and you can bet that they will be right back here in a day's time wanting better healing tools/survivability. don't downplay how uneven things still are, regardless of us all saying that things are better balanced than they have been in a while.you know this, because watching leather out tank you with more versatility just doesn't seem right still. sure, they needed a place in the ranks but not at the top with all the rest that they have to offer as well. i'd much rather see a simplified 3 tank classes, very closely to evenly balanced than 6 tanks that are spread all over the board for different areas.

The_Cheeseman

08-28-2011, 02:11 PM

What versatility is that, exactly? What else do brawlers have to offer besides tanking? Our DPS is nothing special this expansion, even with Combat Mastery we wouldn't be getting any more raid slots than we ever did in the past due to the fact that scout/mage DPS has advanced far more than fighter DPS since launch of DoV. We have no utility to speak of other than what all fighters get.Are you saying that you wouldn't have a problem with another plate tank out tanking you? I'm starting to think that this is simply an issue of plate tanks being upset that brawlers are actually good MTs now, and that they actually have 5 classes to compete with for that spot instead of the 3 they've been used to for 6 years. Get used to leather out tanking you in certain situations, because that's how the game should work. Sorry if I have trouble feeling any sympathy for the folks who had written-off my favorite class years ago.

Faildozer

08-28-2011, 02:37 PM

<cite>Eudidimuss@Butcherblock wrote:</cite><blockquote>What I don't understand is that from what I have been reading in other posts, you hear some pallys praise amends and other threads like this one basically it's at best unreliable. And the brawler class is so OP due to it's 4 snaps. Believe it or not the zerker class has 4 positional snaps as well. And In the right order I can get back on top of the hate list fairly quickly, from a hate dump. And in the event I am not able to my OT will grab it, (which is a pally btw) Until I have a snap up. Now I'm not saying the pally needs one more or not. Or which class is perceived to be broken or not either. Each tank has their good points and bad points. And faildozer saying I derailed the thread stating the facts, is a bit low isn't it? I am telling you that you needing to be at the top of the agro list after an agro dump is absurd. When you can use two tanks to bounce the agro back and forth between the tanks. But you come on and whine about having not enough snaps. Asking for more would lead to the pally being OP'ed wouldn't it? </blockquote>Monks have an additional ability that gives them rescues on their regular taunts for 24 seconds every 3 minutes. They also have peel. Berserkers have insolence, jeering onslaught, cry of the warrior, sneering assault and rescue. 5 positions, 3 positions, 2 positions, 3 positions and 3 positions respectively. Paladins have Holy ground, sneering assault and rescue for 1 position, 3 positions and 3 postions respectively. Reworking holy ground would be fine without overpowering the class because as it is right now its not much more than a dps tool. It has a short range and requires you to be standing still to cast, its only saving grace is it is on a relatively short reuse timer. Again, amends is a great tool for holding threat but it does little to nothing when we need to get the mob back fast and the class is balanced around having it for generating threat. Our abilities hit for a lot less than other tanks because of this, which i am fine with. Our class was also only given 2 snaps because we were designed around having a 24 position rescue with holy ground which was nerfed to a 1 position increase.This isnt a whine, like i said the lack of snaps is not even my main concern. I would like to have better survivability because right now as a 'defensive' tank we dont have much to deal with deathtouches and massive incoming damage that other tanks have. Asking for attention to a class that was balanced with little in terms of defensive utility because we were given heals which are useless in most scenarios and do nothing to prevent the incoming damage or even mitigate it. We were given less snaps because we originally had a 24 position rescue and that was all that was needed for the content back then, now when there are even more memwipes in the game it is only a 1 position rescue. Asking sony to address these issues isnt farfetched and it certainly wont make paladins OP'd or the flavor of the month if they are fixed.And edi, what you did was derail the thread with the initial comment of,"Seriously I don't understand why you as a pally are complaining about snaps and reuse. Your class has the best aggro tool ingame period, slap amends on your raid Brigg and you could almost go afk while tanking. I belive it's why your class doesnt have as many snaps as the other classes. But that's my opinion..." You obviously have never played a paladin or you would realise how ridiculous that comment is especially when talking about dealing with memwipes. Sorry if you felt that was low of me to say but you did derail the thread at that point.

LygerT

08-28-2011, 03:20 PM

<cite>The_Cheeseman wrote:</cite><blockquote>What versatility is that, exactly? What else do brawlers have to offer besides tanking? Our DPS is nothing special this expansion, even with Combat Mastery we wouldn't be getting any more raid slots than we ever did in the past due to the fact that scout/mage DPS has advanced far more than fighter DPS since launch of DoV. We have no utility to speak of other than what all fighters get.Are you saying that you wouldn't have a problem with another plate tank out tanking you? I'm starting to think that this is simply an issue of plate tanks being upset that brawlers are actually good MTs now, and that they actually have 5 classes to compete with for that spot instead of the 3 they've been used to for 6 years. Get used to leather out tanking you in certain situations, because that's how the game should work. Sorry if I have trouble feeling any sympathy for the folks who had written-off my favorite class years ago.</blockquote>versatility doesn't just come from raiding, i can do much more on my brawler than just raid with it. even though for the most part these arguments are simply about raid positions. if you are exceptional at levelling, grouping and raiding then you have a more than rounded class now than most have dealt with over the years which is why guards had been the #1 goto tank for many years because they were a pita to solo or duo with, which isn't the case anymore.but you still missed my point, 6 tanks is never going to work for balancing in this game and it never has.my purpose isn't to nerf brawlers but to increase survivability of plate to be equal to leather now. but with 4 plate tanks all fighting to be the best, see the previous statement.

Bruener

08-28-2011, 05:03 PM

<cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite><blockquote>Here we go again more QQ from people who don't even know how the classes work where have I seen this before, oh right every other thread on this forum.</blockquote>Are you starting to get the hint yet? Or are you going to keep denying how messed up Fighter balance really is. The best thing you could do is what you have been doing the last couple weeks and that would be not post anywhere and enjoy your OP'd class while you can and pray that when the nerf hammer drops that they don't do to you what they did to Crusaders going into DoV.</blockquote>Cry more, brawlers just got nerfed by devs getting rid of strikethrough buffs off of the x2 debuff yet you are still crying. Take away coop strike and a crusader can tank everything including adds.</blockquote>Have quite a ways to go. Guess what, we killed 3 new mobs in Sullons HM...and same old mechanic that you are a Brawler or Guard or you die.

Bruener

08-28-2011, 05:09 PM

<cite>Toranx@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote>I find it funny that when SK where on top of the world Bruener screamed and yelled tanks balanced better then ever before. Now they they are not the king of all he is complaining about tank balance. But to the point, Tanks will never be balanced in this game. There is simply to many of them with every one of them wanting the spotlight. The EQ2 team don't have the balls to do what needs to be done so just get use to king of tanks being rotated through each subclass.</blockquote>Actually, not suprising is your memory is extremely bad. Yes in SF which a lot of the tanks and individuals will tell you was the best Fighter balance out there....I defended my class against morons that did not understand how well things were. It is the fault of people like you that caused the mess of DoV, and you will really feel it when it ping pongs back to a flip flop on tanks because SOE will over due it and not get it right again for probably a couple xpacs.Tanks were so balanced and all were very useful in SF once Guards got their changes. BTW I find it extremely ironic that you are trying to call me out when I was actually the individual that made extensive posts and pushed for some nice tweaks to the Guard class. Thank goodness SOE didn't listen to the few of you complainers that just wanted more DPS. You guys would be back at the bottom if they would have.SOE is making mechanics that can one shot tanks because they want tanks and healers to be forced to use thier saves for those times. 3 Fighters have a lot more tools to deal with that and so balance is garbage right now. Do not expect that type of mechanic to change simply because it is what SOE wants to see being proactive as a Fighter/Healer. You know, the whole reason they added the cast bar in.

Bruener

08-28-2011, 05:11 PM

BChizzle

08-28-2011, 06:48 PM

<cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite><blockquote>Here we go again more QQ from people who don't even know how the classes work where have I seen this before, oh right every other thread on this forum.</blockquote>Are you starting to get the hint yet? Or are you going to keep denying how messed up Fighter balance really is. The best thing you could do is what you have been doing the last couple weeks and that would be not post anywhere and enjoy your OP'd class while you can and pray that when the nerf hammer drops that they don't do to you what they did to Crusaders going into DoV.</blockquote>Cry more, brawlers just got nerfed by devs getting rid of strikethrough buffs off of the x2 debuff yet you are still crying. Take away coop strike and a crusader can tank everything including adds.</blockquote>Have quite a ways to go. Guess what, we killed 3 new mobs in Sullons HM...and same old mechanic that you are a Brawler or Guard or you die.</blockquote>Except that your brawler was also dying all over the place.

Caethre

08-28-2011, 07:11 PM

<cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote>I can tell you what it should be.MT - Paladin/GuardOT - SK/ZerkCC/Emergency Tank - Bruiser/Monk</blockquote>(( It is ludicrous to still be seeing this kind of nonsense. All six fighter classes should be viable in all roles, for groups and raids alike. That does not mean "identical" but it does mean viable.The tank classes are more balanced now than they have ever been. For players who are at least semi-capable, people are not getting refused roles in heroic groups or the easier raids for being the "wrong" fighter class anymore (like they used to be all the time!). SOE having finally given some equality to the tank classes for the mass of the playerbase.But a very small number of players do not like this equality. They want the "good old days" back where their class was grossly overpowered (ergo: Shadowknight), but if you played a brawler, you could hardly get a group, who wanted "a real tank" or "some real dps". They want other tank classes relegated to being "oh just tank that add, if you can, and shut up whilst I do the real work".Tough luck buddy. Those days are gone, and I very much hope SOE do not bring them back due to whining from a small number of malcontents wanting to be grossly overpowered again.Of course, not everything is perfect. Of course we would all love to see minor changes to our classes. I still want brawler aggro to be better, I still cannot get close to an equally geared crusader or beserker for AE aggro. I know many normal pally players feel their heals are too weak now, with some good justification.But telling people they should just let your class, and those you feel should be allowed to, should be set up for "real" tanking? You know what you can do with that idea. ))

Bruener

08-28-2011, 07:43 PM

<cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite><blockquote>Here we go again more QQ from people who don't even know how the classes work where have I seen this before, oh right every other thread on this forum.</blockquote>Are you starting to get the hint yet? Or are you going to keep denying how messed up Fighter balance really is. The best thing you could do is what you have been doing the last couple weeks and that would be not post anywhere and enjoy your OP'd class while you can and pray that when the nerf hammer drops that they don't do to you what they did to Crusaders going into DoV.</blockquote>Cry more, brawlers just got nerfed by devs getting rid of strikethrough buffs off of the x2 debuff yet you are still crying. Take away coop strike and a crusader can tank everything including adds.</blockquote>Have quite a ways to go. Guess what, we killed 3 new mobs in Sullons HM...and same old mechanic that you are a Brawler or Guard or you die.</blockquote>Except that your brawler was also dying all over the place.</blockquote>Amazing, I know, right? Who would expect a Brawler to actually die to any type of big hit, right?So imagine how any other tank is going to tank it if a Brawler had a hard time actually handling the AE spikes.

Bruener

08-28-2011, 07:43 PM

<cite>Felishanna@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote>I can tell you what it should be.MT - Paladin/GuardOT - SK/ZerkCC/Emergency Tank - Bruiser/Monk</blockquote>(( It is ludicrous to still be seeing this kind of nonsense. All six fighter classes should be viable in all roles, for groups and raids alike. That does not mean "identical" but it does mean viable.The tank classes are more balanced now than they have ever been. For players who are at least semi-capable, people are not getting refused roles in heroic groups or the easier raids for being the "wrong" fighter class anymore (like they used to be all the time!). SOE having finally given some equality to the tank classes for the mass of the playerbase.But a very small number of players do not like this equality. They want the "good old days" back where their class was grossly overpowered (ergo: Shadowknight), but if you played a brawler, you could hardly get a group, who wanted "a real tank" or "some real dps". They want other tank classes relegated to being "oh just tank that add, if you can, and shut up whilst I do the real work".Tough luck buddy. Those days are gone, and I very much hope SOE do not bring them back due to whining from a small number of malcontents wanting to be grossly overpowered again.Of course, not everything is perfect. Of course we would all love to see minor changes to our classes. I still want brawler aggro to be better, I still cannot get close to an equally geared crusader or beserker for AE aggro. I know many normal pally players feel their heals are too weak now, with some good justification.But telling people they should just let your class, and those you feel should be allowed to, should be set up for "real" tanking? You know what you can do with that idea. ))</blockquote>Than its simple really. All the superior abilities that Brawlers have to do that role of CC and emergency tanking need to be nerfed.Than it can be balanced for progression.

circusgirl

08-28-2011, 08:52 PM

<cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Felishanna@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote>I can tell you what it should be.MT - Paladin/GuardOT - SK/ZerkCC/Emergency Tank - Bruiser/Monk</blockquote>(( It is ludicrous to still be seeing this kind of nonsense. All six fighter classes should be viable in all roles, for groups and raids alike. That does not mean "identical" but it does mean viable.The tank classes are more balanced now than they have ever been. For players who are at least semi-capable, people are not getting refused roles in heroic groups or the easier raids for being the "wrong" fighter class anymore (like they used to be all the time!). SOE having finally given some equality to the tank classes for the mass of the playerbase.But a very small number of players do not like this equality. They want the "good old days" back where their class was grossly overpowered (ergo: Shadowknight), but if you played a brawler, you could hardly get a group, who wanted "a real tank" or "some real dps". They want other tank classes relegated to being "oh just tank that add, if you can, and shut up whilst I do the real work".Tough luck buddy. Those days are gone, and I very much hope SOE do not bring them back due to whining from a small number of malcontents wanting to be grossly overpowered again.Of course, not everything is perfect. Of course we would all love to see minor changes to our classes. I still want brawler aggro to be better, I still cannot get close to an equally geared crusader or beserker for AE aggro. I know many normal pally players feel their heals are too weak now, with some good justification.But telling people they should just let your class, and those you feel should be allowed to, should be set up for "real" tanking? You know what you can do with that idea. ))</blockquote>Than its simple really. All the superior abilities that Brawlers have to do that role of CC and emergency tanking need to be nerfed.Than it can be balanced for progression.</blockquote>"Emergency" tanking is a nonexistent, pretend role, and it always has been. Offtanks take over in an emergency, there's no specialized position for brawlers and there never was.

BChizzle

08-28-2011, 09:40 PM

<cite>Vinka@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Felishanna@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote>I can tell you what it should be.MT - Paladin/GuardOT - SK/ZerkCC/Emergency Tank - Bruiser/Monk</blockquote>(( It is ludicrous to still be seeing this kind of nonsense. All six fighter classes should be viable in all roles, for groups and raids alike. That does not mean "identical" but it does mean viable.The tank classes are more balanced now than they have ever been. For players who are at least semi-capable, people are not getting refused roles in heroic groups or the easier raids for being the "wrong" fighter class anymore (like they used to be all the time!). SOE having finally given some equality to the tank classes for the mass of the playerbase.But a very small number of players do not like this equality. They want the "good old days" back where their class was grossly overpowered (ergo: Shadowknight), but if you played a brawler, you could hardly get a group, who wanted "a real tank" or "some real dps". They want other tank classes relegated to being "oh just tank that add, if you can, and shut up whilst I do the real work".Tough luck buddy. Those days are gone, and I very much hope SOE do not bring them back due to whining from a small number of malcontents wanting to be grossly overpowered again.Of course, not everything is perfect. Of course we would all love to see minor changes to our classes. I still want brawler aggro to be better, I still cannot get close to an equally geared crusader or beserker for AE aggro. I know many normal pally players feel their heals are too weak now, with some good justification.But telling people they should just let your class, and those you feel should be allowed to, should be set up for "real" tanking? You know what you can do with that idea. ))</blockquote>Than its simple really. All the superior abilities that Brawlers have to do that role of CC and emergency tanking need to be nerfed.Than it can be balanced for progression.</blockquote>"Emergency" tanking is a nonexistent, pretend role, and it always has been. Offtanks take over in an emergency, there's no specialized position for brawlers and there never was.</blockquote>TBH SK's should be the emergency tanks since they fit that role oh so well.

LardLord

08-28-2011, 09:49 PM

SKs are emergency tanks!

Bruener

08-28-2011, 10:35 PM

<cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Vinka@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Felishanna@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote>I can tell you what it should be.MT - Paladin/GuardOT - SK/ZerkCC/Emergency Tank - Bruiser/Monk</blockquote>(( It is ludicrous to still be seeing this kind of nonsense. All six fighter classes should be viable in all roles, for groups and raids alike. That does not mean "identical" but it does mean viable.The tank classes are more balanced now than they have ever been. For players who are at least semi-capable, people are not getting refused roles in heroic groups or the easier raids for being the "wrong" fighter class anymore (like they used to be all the time!). SOE having finally given some equality to the tank classes for the mass of the playerbase.But a very small number of players do not like this equality. They want the "good old days" back where their class was grossly overpowered (ergo: Shadowknight), but if you played a brawler, you could hardly get a group, who wanted "a real tank" or "some real dps". They want other tank classes relegated to being "oh just tank that add, if you can, and shut up whilst I do the real work".Tough luck buddy. Those days are gone, and I very much hope SOE do not bring them back due to whining from a small number of malcontents wanting to be grossly overpowered again.Of course, not everything is perfect. Of course we would all love to see minor changes to our classes. I still want brawler aggro to be better, I still cannot get close to an equally geared crusader or beserker for AE aggro. I know many normal pally players feel their heals are too weak now, with some good justification.But telling people they should just let your class, and those you feel should be allowed to, should be set up for "real" tanking? You know what you can do with that idea. ))</blockquote>Than its simple really. All the superior abilities that Brawlers have to do that role of CC and emergency tanking need to be nerfed.Than it can be balanced for progression.</blockquote>"Emergency" tanking is a nonexistent, pretend role, and it always has been. Offtanks take over in an emergency, there's no specialized position for brawlers and there never was.</blockquote>TBH SK's should be the emergency tanks since they fit that role oh so well.</blockquote>Sweet. Well than to start I need to have all my temp abilities reuse cut completely in half. Than I need a lot more hate positional abilities to pick things up faster than anybody else.Oh wait. Than that puts SKs right in the position of Brawlers which breaks content.Whats sad is one of you knows exactly what I am talking about but just claims ignorance to be OP'd. The other one of you really doesn't have a clue.It really is only a matter of time because now it is not just me that sees how ridiculous the balance is. It is basically anybody that is in real progression.

Bruener

08-28-2011, 10:38 PM

<cite>Quabi@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>SKs are emergency tanks!</blockquote>LOL, yeah regulated to E-tank without any of the tools though. WOOT!!!!

circusgirl

08-28-2011, 11:01 PM

<cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Quabi@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>SKs are emergency tanks!</blockquote>LOL, yeah regulated to E-tank without any of the tools though. WOOT!!!!</blockquote>E-tank still isn't a real position. And which am I, ignorant or dastardly?

Caethre

08-28-2011, 11:53 PM

<cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Felishanna@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote>I can tell you what it should be.MT - Paladin/GuardOT - SK/ZerkCC/Emergency Tank - Bruiser/Monk</blockquote>(( It is ludicrous to still be seeing this kind of nonsense. All six fighter classes should be viable in all roles, for groups and raids alike. That does not mean "identical" but it does mean viable.The tank classes are more balanced now than they have ever been. For players who are at least semi-capable, people are not getting refused roles in heroic groups or the easier raids for being the "wrong" fighter class anymore (like they used to be all the time!). SOE having finally given some equality to the tank classes for the mass of the playerbase.But a very small number of players do not like this equality. They want the "good old days" back where their class was grossly overpowered (ergo: Shadowknight), but if you played a brawler, you could hardly get a group, who wanted "a real tank" or "some real dps". They want other tank classes relegated to being "oh just tank that add, if you can, and shut up whilst I do the real work".Tough luck buddy. Those days are gone, and I very much hope SOE do not bring them back due to whining from a small number of malcontents wanting to be grossly overpowered again.Of course, not everything is perfect. Of course we would all love to see minor changes to our classes. I still want brawler aggro to be better, I still cannot get close to an equally geared crusader or beserker for AE aggro. I know many normal pally players feel their heals are too weak now, with some good justification.But telling people they should just let your class, and those you feel should be allowed to, should be set up for "real" tanking? You know what you can do with that idea. ))</blockquote>Than its simple really. All the superior abilities that Brawlers have to do that role of CC and emergency tanking need to be nerfed.Than it can be balanced for progression.</blockquote>(( What is this role of "CC and Emergency tanking"? I am a main tank or an offtank, same as every other tank, of any of the six fighter classes. Stop making stuff up.Basically, you just want your class to be the "god class" again. We can all see right through that, Bruener. You want us back in the days where people said "Brawler? What use are they? We want a real tank, thanks" whenever you offered to tank for a group. That is not going to happen.So yes, it's simple alright. Things are pretty balanced now for heroic groups and easier raids. Most players of all the classes are actually pretty happy right now. We all have a role and we don't get continually rejected, any of us. You are not giving genuine feedback.You are just deliberately lieing, and calling for nerfs to other classes based on those lies. ))

Corydonn

08-29-2011, 03:56 AM

<cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Quabi@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>SKs are emergency tanks!</blockquote>LOL, yeah regulated to E-tank without any of the tools though. WOOT!!!!</blockquote>Furor and Bloodletter did it's job on Saturday! That is more tools than I had to work with in TSO!

BChizzle

08-29-2011, 05:32 AM

<cite>Corydonn wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Quabi@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>SKs are emergency tanks!</blockquote>LOL, yeah regulated to E-tank without any of the tools though. WOOT!!!!</blockquote>Furor and Bloodletter did it's job on Saturday! That is more tools than I had to work with in TSO!</blockquote>This grats Duele on being the emergency tank of choice, since you were pushing so hard for that role to exist enjoy filling it!

Bruener

08-29-2011, 10:45 AM

<cite>Vinka@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Quabi@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>SKs are emergency tanks!</blockquote>LOL, yeah regulated to E-tank without any of the tools though. WOOT!!!!</blockquote>E-tank still isn't a real position. And which am I, ignorant or dastardly?</blockquote>I think you already know which one you are, or maybe you don't realize that too.Notice how the label is Emergency/CC tank. That is a very real position and one that Brawlers have always been phenomenal at. In SF having a Bruiser that could CC encounters was a huge advantage in knocking down progression mobs.There is a reason that Brawlers get more snap type abilities, have abilities to drop mobs, have abilities to make sure they take no damage while they do it, have the best utility to put on another tank while they tank, have hate transfer, superior intercedes, etc etc etc.CC has always been important and Brawlers are the masters of it. Now they simply have the abilities to own that niche plus their survivibility was bumped to own every other niche. No other tank has the tools to be pushed into that position...they were not built that way. If SOE deems they want to give other tanks as many tools than it would probably balance tanks because everybody would have those fast reuse abilities that are owning the game right now. Its not very healthy for game mechanics though.

Talathion

08-29-2011, 11:44 AM

Main Tank - Bruiser / MonkOff Tank - Bruiser / Monk / GuardianEmergency Tank - ShadowknightMasochist Tank - BerserkerSpecial Tank - Paladin

Bruener

08-29-2011, 12:31 PM

<cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Corydonn wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Quabi@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>SKs are emergency tanks!</blockquote>LOL, yeah regulated to E-tank without any of the tools though. WOOT!!!!</blockquote>Furor and Bloodletter did it's job on Saturday! That is more tools than I had to work with in TSO!</blockquote>This grats Duele on being the emergency tank of choice, since you were pushing so hard for that role to exist enjoy filling it!</blockquote>Hey, why don't you go ahead and let us know what you think SOEs vision on Tanks is? Because surely it is not Brawlers best at everything.So give us your great opinion on it and than let us know what they should do to get it to balanced.There is an obvious issue with Crusaders and Beserkers right now (although not real sure about Beserkers after the recent changes).So, share. Because unless you think it is ok that Brawlers own every position in raids than you should be able to draw some conclusions on what needs to change.

Buzzing

08-29-2011, 01:05 PM

Considering I didn't want this thread to derail to this degree... I wasn’t going to post. Considering it has already been derailed to the point where a dev will not actually post here I might as well throw my 2 cents in.Guardians – Still a viable choice as main tank. Designed as a defensive tank and given the tools to do just that. They have enough positional agro to get a mob back when it is needed until fights last too long (though I don’t actually think that is bad). The DPS of the class is a bit lower than the other tanks but as a general rule they take a bit less damage as well. As a whole, Guardians are a good balancing point. I would actually like to see a bit DPS for desirability reasons but over all still a good tank.Berserkers – The only role I have seen for Berserkers in this expansion is off tank. From what I have seen the class only needs a few changes to bring it back on par. Given that in the past Berserkers have always been a more damage focused class I am going to say that they need to be given a boost in this area. 100% aoe auto attack just isn’t all it used to be. Considering 3 (and some times 4) of the tank classes can out dps a berserker in a single target and still be about the same or higher in an aoe fight, they need a boost to dps or more defensive tools. From what I have read (though I do not ever talk for another class community) the preferred approach would be to increase dps. There is more ways to do this then I care to explain. Although another way to mitigate a huge hit would also increase the desirability in a raid.Shadowknights – Great for groups but the desirability for a raid position has fallen some, still a good choice for an off tank role. Shadowknights at one point were an amazing dps machine and could still keep up with the incoming damage in a raid. This naturally made them very desirable for just about any tank role in a raid. The damage of the class was brought down but the defense of the class remained about unchanged. In current content they can’t withstand damage of the hardest raid content. Again I do not speak for any other class community but from what I can tell the preferred changes would be to increase dps again. Even if this is the case and the damage is increased it would still be great to see one more tool to live through a nasty frontal aoe or death touch.Paladins – Great for groups and easy mode raids but no place for the hardest content. Though in their current state they are the most broken of the classes, very little needs to change in order to fix them. The dps of Paladins is right where it needs to be. However for a defensive tank they can’t survive the damage of the hardest content. Arguably the best at sustaining agro (and undisputed in non ideal situations) they lack in the ability to regain the hate if it is lost. Though a huge pain I would only say they need maybe one more snap in order to fix this. As I am a paladin I would say this is not a huge concern in every fight. Again the biggest flaw of the class is the ability to live threw a series of attacks that land every 45 seconds. Fixing Devine Aura so that it works for the all of the damage and not just the damage less than 50% would actually go a long way to help both the Shadowknight and the Paladin to survive the massive damage in the current content. Another change would still be needed in order to rotate threw the timers of the aoe or death touch (though would not need to be nearly as strong as fixing Devine Aura, maybe just a 2 hit magic only on stonewall as an aa choice or something along those lines). All in all the class only needs a couple of changes to bring them back to a defensive tank in the end game.Bruisers – Great choice for a main tank or an off tank role. All in all I feel Bruisers are very close to where they should be. Slightly less capable than their counterpart of surviving the massive damage of a main tank spot able none the less. Given that fact I do feel a bruiser could use a boost in the dps that can provide to a raid. The class sacrifices a huge portion of their survivability in order to do the extra damage when they would like to. The increase however is not enough of a gain. Simply increase the dps that a Bruiser can provide in the offensive would be a good move.Monks – A great choice for main tank and for off tank. Yes I do understand that it is the current content that has placed the monk in the position that they are in. However I feel that they should remain unchanged. I agree that all the tanks should have chance at landing a role in a raid force. Even though a monk is the best choice for main tank at this point they are still not the best choice for grouping as some of the other classes can tank in a less ideal set up. Don’t change monks…In summary:Guardian – small boost to dpsBerserker – large increase to dps and a small increase in spike damage survivabilityShadowknight – large increase to dps and a small increase to spike damage survivabilityPaladin – large increase to spike damage survivability and a small increase to snap agroBruiser – small to large increase to offensive dpsMonk – leave them alone, there fineAll of the above changes are only true if the content remains the same. Changing the content would help in most cases. However I would rather the classes changed to the above as I actually feel the difficulty of raids will scale better if you did.

Silzin

08-29-2011, 01:22 PM

Nice analyses Buzzing. Also there have bin several very good points in here by The_Cheeseman and Vinka. But this is the way that I see thing and I understand I may be wrong in several points here, just my 2cp. This is the way I see the major tanking rolls in the game atm. First it seams the Dives are trying to get 3-4 tank in each raid, so I am going to assume that we are planning for 4 tank, one per group. G1, MT Roll to deal with 1 mob at a time that hits hard. G2, OT1 First stay defensive, to pick up adds as they come and then assist on the MT’s named. OR to tank a 2nd Named as needed. G3/4, OT2/3 First to stay offensive, assist the OT1 picking up adds and dpsing as much as needed. If something happens to MT, this roll moves up to OT1 till MT gets back up. OR tank the 3rd Named as needed. Using this as a basic outline the classes that “should” best fir into these rolls “should” be MT Guard, Monk, Pally. OT Zerker, SK, Bruiser. Pally’s probably need to help fir there roll but the rest seem to be doing well. This is also given that any of the tanks can do the others roll given a bit of support from the raid but it should be a bit tougher. Outside of broken mobs in the HM Drunder zones it looks like this is working ok.

Caethre

08-29-2011, 01:30 PM

<cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote>Hey, why don't you go ahead and let us know what you think SOEs vision on Tanks is? Because surely it is not Brawlers best at everything.So give us your great opinion on it and than let us know what they should do to get it to balanced.There is an obvious issue with Crusaders and Beserkers right now (although not real sure about Beserkers after the recent changes).So, share. Because unless you think it is ok that Brawlers own every position in raids than you should be able to draw some conclusions on what needs to change.</blockquote>(( Still lieing I see, Bruener.Brawlers are NOT best at everything. Indeed, they are still very much the worst at some things.As group tank, which is what I am almost every day, compared to plate tanks of equivalent gear, I still cannot generate the same AE aggro generation as any plate tank. Sure, I can go to contested Kael or Throne of Storms or Fortress Spires and tank the zone ... if I have a dirge, a coercer and a large hate transfer scout with me, piece of cake, I have all the defensive tools I need to stay alive and then I have the hate.But what about when I want to tank those places and I cannot get those hate classes huh? I'm useless, stuck LFG. Any group will take that pally with amends, or that SK or Berserker with their massive AE-aggro generation, over me, anytime. This is the *reality* amongst the normal playerbase. Heh, I was in a x2 recently with an equivalently geared SK, and we tried to split tank two mobs. We couldn't, because he was generating so much aggro, since I didn't have a dirge in my OT group, I couldn't keep mine off him! But some idiots keep saying MY class is the one overpowered. Not from where I am standing it isn't!Why do I not complain about this more vocally? Because it's part of the balance that my AE hate is poor but my snaps are good, that my mitigation is lower but my avoidance is higher, and other issues. That's the idea of having different classes, with choices to be made. And .. I can form my own groups, and just have to wait to get the classes I need. Whereas as an SK, Duele can do any of those zones without those hate classes - and hold aggro EASILY.But you want SK to be a god-class, best at everything, and monks and bruisers back on the scrapheap. It is not going to happen.And you seem to be talking about high-end hardmode raids only, and requesting class changes based on those, and forgetting they involve only 1% of the playerbase. That's right, mess the whole game up for all players who are not hardmode raiders, so you can have a godmode raidclass.Stop lieing. ))

Buzzing

08-29-2011, 01:35 PM

<cite>Felishanna@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>But what about when I want to tank those places and I cannot get those hate classes huh? I'm useless, stuck LFG. Any group will take that pally with amends, or that SK or Berserker with their massive AE-aggro generation, over me, anytime. This is the *reality* amongst the normal playerbase. Heh, I was in a x2 recently with an equivalently geared SK, and we tried to split tank two mobs. We couldn't, because he was generating so much aggro, since I didn't have a dirge in my OT group, I couldn't keep mine off him! But some idiots keep saying MY class is the one overpowered. Not from where I am standing it isn't!</blockquote>I mentioned this in my post above, if most agree with it I will change the first post.

Boli32

08-29-2011, 01:56 PM

I think the fact they every class, indeed every person who is arguing in this thread is saying pallys need more help in MTing (surviving) says a lot more than the argument themselves.

LygerT

08-29-2011, 02:01 PM

<cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Toranx@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote>I find it funny that when SK where on top of the world Bruener screamed and yelled tanks balanced better then ever before. Now they they are not the king of all he is complaining about tank balance. But to the point, Tanks will never be balanced in this game. There is simply to many of them with every one of them wanting the spotlight. The EQ2 team don't have the balls to do what needs to be done so just get use to king of tanks being rotated through each subclass.</blockquote>Actually, not suprising is your memory is extremely bad. Yes in SF which a lot of the tanks and individuals will tell you was the best Fighter balance out there....I defended my class against morons that did not understand how well things were. It is the fault of people like you that caused the mess of DoV, and you will really feel it when it ping pongs back to a flip flop on tanks because SOE will over due it and not get it right again for probably a couple xpacs.Tanks were so balanced and all were very useful in SF once Guards got their changes. BTW I find it extremely ironic that you are trying to call me out when I was actually the individual that made extensive posts and pushed for some nice tweaks to the Guard class. Thank goodness SOE didn't listen to the few of you complainers that just wanted more DPS. You guys would be back at the bottom if they would have.SOE is making mechanics that can one shot tanks because they want tanks and healers to be forced to use thier saves for those times. 3 Fighters have a lot more tools to deal with that and so balance is garbage right now. Do not expect that type of mechanic to change simply because it is what SOE wants to see being proactive as a Fighter/Healer. You know, the whole reason they added the cast bar in.</blockquote>let's not kid ourselves, hundreds of people have told you that SK was the FoTM class for SF, which was completely true. while still not the best main tank it was still fully capable while able to solo some of the most difficult heroic content, do some of the best tank DPS and had decent survivability still while many raid forces still in fact used SKs as their main tanks and had 0 issues for their progression main tank role.

Talathion

08-29-2011, 02:46 PM

<cite>Buzzing@Butcherblock wrote:</cite><blockquote>Guardian – small boost to dpsAdd 2% More Flurry to their Guardian Tree.Double the Strikethrough they gain via AAs.Berserker – large increase to dps and a small increase in spike damage survivability.Fix Juggernaut to Actually Increase Our DPS, Make the Reuse Smaller. (the spell literally kills you for nothing).Fix Open Wounds to Increase Our Strikethrough, Make the Reuse Smaller. (100% AOE Auto is worthless after 100%.)Uncap AOE Autoattack. (AOE Multi-Attack Please.)Make Blood Rage a percent based heal and also increase our Max Health. (We have the lowest HP of all Tanks.)Shadowknight – large increase to dps and a small increase to spike damage survivabilityShadowknight's Furor: AddonApplies Furor of Hate on Termination Lasts 1 Minute.- Caster is Immune to Strikethrough Attacks.Blood Letter is again able to be cast in the middle of a battle.Applies Thirsty for Blood on Termination Lasts 1 Minute. (When Blood Letter Procs)Increases the Caster's Doublecast (Spell Double Attack) by 15%.Paladin – large increase to spike damage survivability and a small increase to snap agroBurst of Divine.Target: EnemyPower: ScalesCasting: 1.5 Seconds (Not Modified)Recast: 1 Minute (Not Modified)Effect Radius: 12.0 MetersHit Bonus: 40% EasierIncreases Threat Priority of Targets in Area of Effect by 3 Positions.Wards Group Members (AE) by 6450. (Unmodified by Potency)Ward Lasts 30 Seconds.Bruiser – small to large increase to offensive dpsMonk – leave them alone, there fine</blockquote>

Gungo

08-29-2011, 02:56 PM

<cite>Talathion@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Buzzing@Butcherblock wrote:</cite><blockquote>Guardian – small boost to dpsAdd 2% More Flurry to their Guardian Tree.Double the Strikethrough they gain via AAs.Berserker – large increase to dps and a small increase in spike damage survivability.Fix Juggernaut to Actually Increase Our DPS, Make the Reuse Smaller. (the spell literally kills you for nothing).Fix Open Wounds to Increase Our Strikethrough, Make the Reuse Smaller. (100% AOE Auto is worthless after 100%.)Uncap AOE Autoattack. (AOE Multi-Attack Please.)Make Blood Rage a percent based heal and also increase our Max Health. (We have the lowest HP of all Tanks.)Shadowknight – large increase to dps and a small increase to spike damage survivabilityShadowknight's Furor: AddonApplies Furor of Hate on Termination Lasts 1 Minute.- Caster is Immune to Strikethrough Attacks.Blood Letter is again able to be cast in the middle of a battle.Applies Thirsty for Blood on Termination Lasts 1 Minute. (When Blood Letter Procs)Increases the Caster's Doublecast (Spell Double Attack) by 15%.Paladin – large increase to spike damage survivability and a small increase to snap agroBurst of Divine.Target: EnemyPower: ScalesCasting: 1.5 Seconds (Not Modified)Recast: 1 Minute (Not Modified)Effect Radius: 12.0 MetersHit Bonus: 40% EasierIncreases Threat Priority of Targets in Area of Effect by 3 Positions.Wards Group Members (AE) by 6450. (Unmodified by Potency)Ward Lasts 30 Seconds.Bruiser – small to large increase to offensive dpsMonk – leave them alone, there fine</blockquote></blockquote>You know nothign of class balance. People complain about tanking ability and you recommend dps buffs. Zerkers ask for more tanking buffs so they can survive epics and you recommend all dps buffs. Paladins ask for a reliable stone skin and you recommend an aoe positional? Guardians alreayd have the second highest strikethrough % and while thier temp buff is up are at 100% and you recommend more? You recommend a temporary strike through buff to shadowknights which will do almost nothing for survivability!

Gungo

08-29-2011, 03:02 PM

<cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Vinka@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Quabi@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>SKs are emergency tanks!</blockquote>LOL, yeah regulated to E-tank without any of the tools though. WOOT!!!!</blockquote>E-tank still isn't a real position. And which am I, ignorant or dastardly?</blockquote>I think you already know which one you are, or maybe you don't realize that too.Notice how the label is Emergency/CC tank. That is a very real position and one that Brawlers have always been phenomenal at. In SF having a Bruiser that could CC encounters was a huge advantage in knocking down progression mobs.There is a reason that Brawlers get more snap type abilities, have abilities to drop mobs, have abilities to make sure they take no damage while they do it, have the best utility to put on another tank while they tank, have hate transfer, superior intercedes, etc etc etc.CC has always been important and Brawlers are the masters of it. Now they simply have the abilities to own that niche plus their survivibility was bumped to own every other niche. No other tank has the tools to be pushed into that position...they were not built that way. If SOE deems they want to give other tanks as many tools than it would probably balance tanks because everybody would have those fast reuse abilities that are owning the game right now. Its not very healthy for game mechanics though.</blockquote>Any tank with a positional increase and any temp buff is an emergency tank. Since every tank has those they are all emergency tanks.If you need an emergency tank every 30-60 seconds you dont need a better emergency tank you need a better Main tank.If you beleive in this made up position of yours so much. You should be the champion on the forums to make shadowknights the games new emergency tank. The tank that takes the most damage then any tank but is the master of surviving for 20 secs every 3-5 minutes.

Buzzing

08-29-2011, 03:08 PM

<cite>Gungo@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote>You know nothign of class balance. People complain about tanking ability and you recommend dps buffs. Zerkers ask for more tanking buffs so they can survive epics and you recommend all dps buffs. Paladins ask for a reliable stone skin and you recommend an aoe positional? Guardians alreayd have the second highest strikethrough % and while thier temp buff is up are at 100% and you recommend more? You recommend a temporary strike through buff to shadowknights which will do almost nothing for survivability!</blockquote>I'm guessing you agree to the (granted very general) balances needed that I posted despite the requested changes that were suggested?Edit: that's kind of a tounge twister

Talathion

08-29-2011, 03:10 PM

<cite>Gungo@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Talathion@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Buzzing@Butcherblock wrote:</cite><blockquote>Guardian – small boost to dpsAdd 2% More Flurry to their Guardian Tree.Double the Strikethrough they gain via AAs.Berserker – large increase to dps and a small increase in spike damage survivability.Fix Juggernaut to Actually Increase Our DPS, Make the Reuse Smaller. (the spell literally kills you for nothing).Fix Open Wounds to Increase Our Strikethrough, Make the Reuse Smaller. (100% AOE Auto is worthless after 100%.)Uncap AOE Autoattack. (AOE Multi-Attack Please.)Make Blood Rage a percent based heal and also increase our Max Health. (We have the lowest HP of all Tanks.)Shadowknight – large increase to dps and a small increase to spike damage survivabilityShadowknight's Furor: AddonApplies Furor of Hate on Termination Lasts 1 Minute.- Caster is Immune to Strikethrough Attacks.Blood Letter is again able to be cast in the middle of a battle.Applies Thirsty for Blood on Termination Lasts 1 Minute. (When Blood Letter Procs)Increases the Caster's Doublecast (Spell Double Attack) by 15%.Paladin – large increase to spike damage survivability and a small increase to snap agroBurst of Divine.Target: EnemyPower: ScalesCasting: 1.5 Seconds (Not Modified)Recast: 1 Minute (Not Modified)Effect Radius: 12.0 MetersHit Bonus: 40% EasierIncreases Threat Priority of Targets in Area of Effect by 3 Positions.Wards Group Members (AE) by 6450. (Unmodified by Potency)Ward Lasts 30 Seconds.Bruiser – small to large increase to offensive dpsMonk – leave them alone, there fine</blockquote></blockquote>You know nothign of class balance. People complain about tanking ability and you recommend dps buffs. Zerkers ask for more tanking buffs so they can survive epics and you recommend all dps buffs. Paladins ask for a reliable stone skin and you recommend an aoe positional? Guardians alreayd have the second highest strikethrough % and while thier temp buff is up are at 100% and you recommend more? You recommend a temporary strike through buff to shadowknights which will do almost nothing for survivability!</blockquote>Changing Blood Rage to a percent based heal and a health buff (since we do not have one) would greatly help our survivability, because we need the health to survive spike damage, NOT tools. You probably do not know this since you do not play the class, but we would probably be fine in survivability with a health buff and our heals working again.Paladins didn't ask for a stoneskin, they asked for something that let them survive AOEs AND a Positional, this skill is both, with 50% reuse it has a 30 second reuse, that is VERY nice, and its not yet modified by potency, so its alot of warding, perfect to time for an AOE. (The Downside being they have to choose to use it as a positional OR a AOE Ward, making the ability require strength of choice, which a GOOD player will decide to use at the right time.)Guardians do NOT have the highest strikethrough percent... Monks do, Guardians have high strikethrough for "30" seconds, every 5 minutes, BIG deal, Play a guardian before you talk about it buddy.Strikethrough Immunity AND Double-Spell Attack Chance... that means they're healing would be double when it went off, and strikethrough immunity for 1 minute is AMAZING, that means half the time they would have strikethrough Immunity, unlike your OP class that has it all the time.

Bruener

08-29-2011, 03:20 PM

<cite>Gungo@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Vinka@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Quabi@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>SKs are emergency tanks!</blockquote>LOL, yeah regulated to E-tank without any of the tools though. WOOT!!!!</blockquote>E-tank still isn't a real position. And which am I, ignorant or dastardly?</blockquote>I think you already know which one you are, or maybe you don't realize that too.Notice how the label is Emergency/CC tank. That is a very real position and one that Brawlers have always been phenomenal at. In SF having a Bruiser that could CC encounters was a huge advantage in knocking down progression mobs.There is a reason that Brawlers get more snap type abilities, have abilities to drop mobs, have abilities to make sure they take no damage while they do it, have the best utility to put on another tank while they tank, have hate transfer, superior intercedes, etc etc etc.CC has always been important and Brawlers are the masters of it. Now they simply have the abilities to own that niche plus their survivibility was bumped to own every other niche. No other tank has the tools to be pushed into that position...they were not built that way. If SOE deems they want to give other tanks as many tools than it would probably balance tanks because everybody would have those fast reuse abilities that are owning the game right now. Its not very healthy for game mechanics though.</blockquote>Any tank with a positional increase and any temp buff is an emergency tank. Since every tank has those they are all emergency tanks.If you need an emergency tank every 30-60 seconds you dont need a better emergency tank you need a better Main tank.If you beleive in this made up position of yours so much. You should be the champion on the forums to make shadowknights the games new emergency tank. The tank that takes the most damage then any tank but is the master of surviving for 20 secs every 3-5 minutes.</blockquote>I love how you Brawlers completely overlook the CC aspect of the position. Why do you think you get so many fricken positionals that can be used very often? Or the ability to flop or drop a mob anytime they want? Or how about having target locks that actual working on a ton of raid mobs? No other tank has even close to the CC ability that Brawlers get.And hey if they wanted SKs to be CC tanks than they need abilities to do it. Furor recast cut in half so it is like Tsunami. Bloodlotter recast cut in half and castable in combat making it more like Tenacity. Completely immune to strike thru so that all avoidance abilities work for the real 100%. Change Grave Sac back to what it was in TSO where it literally locked all mobs hit to the SK, and shave some of the recast time on it. Change FD to have an instant recast. Lets see I am sure I am missing plenty of the tools that were handed out.Wait though, it just creates a 3rd brawler class which doesn't do anything for Paladins and Zerks. So than are we going to give them the same tools? And suddenly all tanks are way more survivable all around and who needs Defilers/Wardens/Templars....you know something that already happens using Brawlers.The answer isn't raising everybody else up to the same exact survivability that Brawlers have now. That just screws up mechanics on which healers to use favoring offensive healers totally.And yes. I make a fantastic CC tank, because having a lack of tools on my SK automatically means Brawlers are the de facto, and unlike a lot of tanks I have a ton of experience and tank extremely well. Its not like this isn't a glaringly obvious issue. Top guilds WW will tell you how much of a difference utilizing a Brawler makes for progression.

Gungo

08-29-2011, 03:21 PM

<cite>Buzzing@Butcherblock wrote:</cite><blockquote>Considering I didn't want this thread to derail to this degree... I wasn’t going to post. Considering it has already been derailed to the point where a dev will not actually post here I might as well throw my 2 cents in.Guardians – Still a viable choice as main tank. Designed as a defensive tank and given the tools to do just that. They have enough positional agro to get a mob back when it is needed until fights last too long (though I don’t actually think that is bad). The DPS of the class is a bit lower than the other tanks but as a general rule they take a bit less damage as well. As a whole, Guardians are a good balancing point. I would actually like to see a bit DPS for desirability reasons but over all still a good tank.Berserkers – The only role I have seen for Berserkers in this expansion is off tank. From what I have seen the class only needs a few changes to bring it back on par. Given that in the past Berserkers have always been a more damage focused class I am going to say that they need to be given a boost in this area. 100% aoe auto attack just isn’t all it used to be. Considering 3 (and some times 4) of the tank classes can out dps a berserker in a single target and still be about the same or higher in an aoe fight, they need a boost to dps or more defensive tools. From what I have read (though I do not ever talk for another class community) the preferred approach would be to increase dps. There is more ways to do this then I care to explain. Although another way to mitigate a huge hit would also increase the desirability in a raid.Shadowknights – Great for groups but the desirability for a raid position has fallen some, still a good choice for an off tank role. Shadowknights at one point were an amazing dps machine and could still keep up with the incoming damage in a raid. This naturally made them very desirable for just about any tank role in a raid. The damage of the class was brought down but the defense of the class remained about unchanged. In current content they can’t withstand damage of the hardest raid content. Again I do not speak for any other class community but from what I can tell the preferred changes would be to increase dps again. Even if this is the case and the damage is increased it would still be great to see one more tool to live through a nasty frontal aoe or death touch.Paladins – Great for groups and easy mode raids but no place for the hardest content. Though in their current state they are the most broken of the classes, very little needs to change in order to fix them. The dps of Paladins is right where it needs to be. However for a defensive tank they can’t survive the damage of the hardest content. Arguably the best at sustaining agro (and undisputed in non ideal situations) they lack in the ability to regain the hate if it is lost. Though a huge pain I would only say they need maybe one more snap in order to fix this. As I am a paladin I would say this is not a huge concern in every fight. Again the biggest flaw of the class is the ability to live threw a series of attacks that land every 45 seconds. Fixing Devine Aura so that it works for the all of the damage and not just the damage less than 50% would actually go a long way to help both the Shadowknight and the Paladin to survive the massive damage in the current content. Another change would still be needed in order to rotate threw the timers of the aoe or death touch (though would not need to be nearly as strong as fixing Devine Aura, maybe just a 2 hit magic only on stonewall as an aa choice or something along those lines). All in all the class only needs a couple of changes to bring them back to a defensive tank in the end game.Bruisers – Great choice for a main tank or an off tank role. All in all I feel Bruisers are very close to where they should be. Slightly less capable than their counterpart of surviving the massive damage of a main tank spot able none the less. Given that fact I do feel a bruiser could use a boost in the dps that can provide to a raid. The class sacrifices a huge portion of their survivability in order to do the extra damage when they would like to. The increase however is not enough of a gain. Simply increase the dps that a Bruiser can provide in the offensive would be a good move.Monks – A great choice for main tank and for off tank. Yes I do understand that it is the current content that has placed the monk in the position that they are in. However I feel that they should remain unchanged. I agree that all the tanks should have chance at landing a role in a raid force. Even though a monk is the best choice for main tank at this point they are still not the best choice for grouping as some of the other classes can tank in a less ideal set up. Don’t change monks…In summary:Guardian – small boost to dpsBerserker – large increase to dps and a small increase in spike damage survivabilityShadowknight – large increase to dps and a small increase to spike damage survivabilityPaladin – large increase to spike damage survivability and a small increase to snap agroBruiser – small to large increase to offensive dpsMonk – leave them alone, there fineAll of the above changes are only true if the content remains the same. Changing the content would help in most cases. However I would rather the classes changed to the above as I actually feel the difficulty of raids will scale better if you did.</blockquote>All in all i beleive in your general idea that bezerkers, shadowknights, bruisers should be the highest dps counterparts with the best aoe agro snaps. ANd i beleive that monks, paladins, and gaurdians should be the best single target maintanks with less dps then all 3 of the above counterparts and no aoe positionals. This would allow classes to betray to what their guild needs an offtank or maintank.

Buzzing

08-29-2011, 03:22 PM

<cite>Talathion@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>Changing Blood Rage to a percent based heal and a health buff (since we do not have one) would greatly help our survivability, because we need the health to survive spike damage, NOT tools.this is an oppinion, but you will still need another tool to survive the aoe's even if you gain more health then any other tank. (and yes you have the least as is and you are not asking to be the highest). The % based heals you are asking for will only break group content but not help you to live through a one shot. Increasing your dps is needed and maybe one more small tool to live through the damage of named agro in the end game. Increasing your HP is needed but not for the reasons your sayingPaladins didn't ask for a stoneskin, they asked for something that let them survive AOEs AND a Positional, this skill is both, with 50% reuse it has a 30 second reuse, that is VERY nice, and its not yet modified by potency, so its alot of warding, perfect to time for an AOE.The spell you suggest wouldn't help us live through an aoe. We have a ward that is larger then 6k as it is and it does not help us to survive the massive damage of the end game. I suggested Fixing DA as it would benefit both the Paladin class and the Shadowknights as both are in need of this fix. Paladins would still need another save to be on par with what is currently needed. We actually don't need another AOE snap tbh. Being a Defencive tank means we should have to try for the extra stuff. One more single target snap would make us better equiped to deal with memwipes.Guardians do NOT have the highest strikethrough percent... Monks do, Guardians have high strikethrough for "30" seconds, every 5 minutes, BIG deal, Play a guardian before you talk about it buddy.Guards will not gain much by more strikethrough. They simply need a boost to the base of there CA's or a cool temp buff that can boost the dps over all for the class.Strikethrough Immunity AND Double-Spell Attack Chance... that means they're healing would be double when it went off, and strikethrough immunity for 1 minute is AMAZING, that means half the time they would have strikethrough Immunity, unlike your OP class that has it all the time.Strikethrough immunity is cool and all but actually would not help an SK live through the one shots. Fixing DA would however. The dps as a whole for the class needs to increase, not the healing. Again an increase to the base damage or another temp buff to boost the damage output, especially in single target encounters.</blockquote>and please refrain from flaming others in here

Buzzing

08-29-2011, 03:24 PM

<cite>Gungo@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote>All in all i beleive in your general idea that bezerkers, shadowknights, bruisers should be the highest dps counterparts with the best aoe agro snaps. ANd i beleive that monks, paladins, and gaurdians should be the best single target maintanks with less dps then all 3 of the above counterparts and no aoe positionals. This would allow classes to betray to what their guild needs an offtank or maintank.</blockquote>That would be the general idea that I am going for yes. Thank you for the input.

Buzzing

08-29-2011, 03:27 PM

<cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote>I love how you Brawlers completely overlook the CC aspect of the position. Why do you think you get so many fricken positionals that can be used very often? Or the ability to flop or drop a mob anytime they want? Or how about having target locks that actual working on a ton of raid mobs? No other tank has even close to the CC ability that Brawlers get.And hey if they wanted SKs to be CC tanks than they need abilities to do it. Furor recast cut in half so it is like Tsunami. Bloodlotter recast cut in half and castable in combat making it more like Tenacity. Completely immune to strike thru so that all avoidance abilities work for the real 100%. Change Grave Sac back to what it was in TSO where it literally locked all mobs hit to the SK, and shave some of the recast time on it. Change FD to have an instant recast. Lets see I am sure I am missing plenty of the tools that were handed out.Wait though, it just creates a 3rd brawler class which doesn't do anything for Paladins and Zerks. So than are we going to give them the same tools? And suddenly all tanks are way more survivable all around and who needs Defilers/Wardens/Templars....you know something that already happens using Brawlers.The answer isn't raising everybody else up to the same exact survivability that Brawlers have now. That just screws up mechanics on which healers to use favoring offensive healers totally.And yes. I make a fantastic CC tank, because having a lack of tools on my SK automatically means Brawlers are the de facto, and unlike a lot of tanks I have a ton of experience and tank extremely well. Its not like this isn't a glaringly obvious issue. Top guilds WW will tell you how much of a difference utilizing a Brawler makes for progression.</blockquote>then your oppinion is that most tanks are fine, nerf brawlers? trying to filter threw your flaming to get to the root of it.P.S. please don't flame people and stick to the topic at hand. Oppinions are great but keep them as such.

Talathion

08-29-2011, 03:28 PM

All Berserkers need is our abilitys Fixed and a Health Buff really.

Gungo

08-29-2011, 03:29 PM

<cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Gungo@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Vinka@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Quabi@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>SKs are emergency tanks!</blockquote>LOL, yeah regulated to E-tank without any of the tools though. WOOT!!!!</blockquote>E-tank still isn't a real position. And which am I, ignorant or dastardly?</blockquote>I think you already know which one you are, or maybe you don't realize that too.Notice how the label is Emergency/CC tank. That is a very real position and one that Brawlers have always been phenomenal at. In SF having a Bruiser that could CC encounters was a huge advantage in knocking down progression mobs.There is a reason that Brawlers get more snap type abilities, have abilities to drop mobs, have abilities to make sure they take no damage while they do it, have the best utility to put on another tank while they tank, have hate transfer, superior intercedes, etc etc etc.CC has always been important and Brawlers are the masters of it. Now they simply have the abilities to own that niche plus their survivibility was bumped to own every other niche. No other tank has the tools to be pushed into that position...they were not built that way. If SOE deems they want to give other tanks as many tools than it would probably balance tanks because everybody would have those fast reuse abilities that are owning the game right now. Its not very healthy for game mechanics though.</blockquote>Any tank with a positional increase and any temp buff is an emergency tank. Since every tank has those they are all emergency tanks.If you need an emergency tank every 30-60 seconds you dont need a better emergency tank you need a better Main tank.If you beleive in this made up position of yours so much. You should be the champion on the forums to make shadowknights the games new emergency tank. The tank that takes the most damage then any tank but is the master of surviving for 20 secs every 3-5 minutes.</blockquote>I love how you Brawlers completely overlook the CC aspect of the position. Why do you think you get so many fricken positionals that can be used very often? Or the ability to flop or drop a mob anytime they want? Or how about having target locks that actual working on a ton of raid mobs? No other tank has even close to the CC ability that Brawlers get.And hey if they wanted SKs to be CC tanks than they need abilities to do it. Furor recast cut in half so it is like Tsunami. Bloodlotter recast cut in half and castable in combat making it more like Tenacity. Completely immune to strike thru so that all avoidance abilities work for the real 100%. Change Grave Sac back to what it was in TSO where it literally locked all mobs hit to the SK, and shave some of the recast time on it. Change FD to have an instant recast. Lets see I am sure I am missing plenty of the tools that were handed out.Wait though, it just creates a 3rd brawler class which doesn't do anything for Paladins and Zerks. So than are we going to give them the same tools? And suddenly all tanks are way more survivable all around and who needs Defilers/Wardens/Templars....you know something that already happens using Brawlers.The answer isn't raising everybody else up to the same exact survivability that Brawlers have now. That just screws up mechanics on which healers to use favoring offensive healers totally.And yes. I make a fantastic CC tank, because having a lack of tools on my SK automatically means Brawlers are the de facto. Its not like this isn't a glaringly obvious issue. Top guilds WW will tell you how much of a difference utilizing a Brawler makes for progression.</blockquote>Our target locks do not work on raid mobs any more then yours. It is a universal flag a developer places on the npc. Certain target locks work because they have POSITIONALS attached not because of the target lock. If they work more then your its because you have no idea how game mechanics work in this game.Once again if you beleive feign death auto matically make us an emergency tank then shadowknights as the only other tank with a feign death is considered an emergency tank as well and should be nearly as squishy as your proposed brawlers and one of the WORST sustainable tanks in game with gaurdians, paladins, and zerkers being significanty better tanks then the other 3 classes because of this made up emergency role of yours.Your proposals is nothing short of what you have alwasy done bruener. You always propose nerfing other fighters and buffing shadowknights even during tso when shadowknights were even more overpowered as brawlers are today.and yes shadowknights were more overpowered during tso. shadowknights were the ONLY tank with a real death save and it was permanant and it had 3 triggers during content designed NOT to outright kill your tank. It didnt matter if you couldnt recast it during combat because YOU SHOULD NEVER have died during TSO. Todays game is designed to kill your tank in order to strip those death saves.Unlike you were during tso, who cried shadowknights were not overpowered. i havent seen a single brawler that hasnt stated brawlers are overpowered in todays game. What i have seen is brawlers stating changes need to be made whether its content based or small class changes. What i have seen is brawlers not wanting to get nerfed into oblivion based on a self serving shadowknight who wants 1/3 the tank classes in game relegated to the worst tank in game based on some self induced hallucination of a role that makes them a short duration tank that takes more damage then scouts tanking.

Buzzing

08-29-2011, 03:34 PM

<cite>Gungo@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote>Our target locks do not work on raid mobs any more then yours. It is a universal flag a developer places on the npc. Certain target locks work because they have POSITIONALS attached not because of the target lock. If they work more then your its because you have no idea how game mechanics work in this game.Once again if you beleive feign death auto matically make us an emergency tank then shadowknights as the only other tank with a feign death is considered an emergency tank as well and should be nearly as squishy as your proposed brawlers and one of the WORST sustainable tanks in game with gaurdians, paladins, and zerkers being significanty better tanks then the other 3 classes because of this made up emergency role of yours.Your proposals is nothing short of what you have alwasy done bruener. You always propose nerfing other fighters and buffing shadowknights even during tso when shadowknights were even more overpowered as brawlers are today.and yes shadowknights were more overpowered during tso. shadowknights were the ONLY tank with a real death save and it was permanant and it had 3 triggers during content designed NOT to outright kill your tank. It didnt matter if you couldnt recast it during combat because YOU SHOULD NEVER have died during TSO. Todays game is designed to kill your tank in order to strip those death saves.</blockquote>to be fair your actually flaming him back, which only feeds the topic with un-needed posts of angerPlease refrain from flaming

Gungo

08-29-2011, 03:51 PM

<cite>Talathion@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>Changing Blood Rage to a percent based heal and a health buff (since we do not have one) would greatly help our survivability, because we need the health to survive spike damage, NOT tools. You probably do not know this since you do not play the class, but we would probably be fine in survivability with a health buff and our heals working again.Paladins didn't ask for a stoneskin, they asked for something that let them survive AOEs AND a Positional, this skill is both, with 50% reuse it has a 30 second reuse, that is VERY nice, and its not yet modified by potency, so its alot of warding, perfect to time for an AOE. (The Downside being they have to choose to use it as a positional OR a AOE Ward, making the ability require strength of choice, which a GOOD player will decide to use at the right time.)Guardians do NOT have the highest strikethrough percent... Monks do, Guardians have high strikethrough for "30" seconds, every 5 minutes, BIG deal, Play a guardian before you talk about it buddy.Strikethrough Immunity AND Double-Spell Attack Chance... that means they're healing would be double when it went off, and strikethrough immunity for 1 minute is AMAZING, that means half the time they would have strikethrough Immunity, unlike your OP class that has it all the time.</blockquote>While zerkers do have the least amount of health in game a few extra thousand health will not prevent them from dieing from 75-125k aoes and content made to kil your tank. Which is why in todays content its stoneskins and death saves that make a tank survive.You must be reading the wrong threads because EVERY thread a paladin has complains about having ZERO stoneskins. They already have a MARGINAL ward, a 6500 non potency/crit ward will do NOTHING, absolutely NOTHING for survivability.reread what i wrote SECOND HIGHEST, SECOND HIGHEST and ability to CAP it for 30secs out of 2.5minutes with reuse. Apprently you need to play a guardians.strikethrough immunity is not as big as you make it out especially on a uncontrolable and very temporary basis. Auto atks dont kill tanks btw and since the shadowknight cant control the timing to use it with thier temp avoid buff it is even more useless. and a double spell attack chance WHICH DOESNT WORK ON HEALING. But lets assume it did would DO NOTHING on raid survivability but overpowered them from heroic/PVP (WHICH IS WHY FIGHTERS HEALS WERE NERFED TO NOT CRIT)want to try again?

Caethre

08-29-2011, 03:53 PM

<cite>Gungo@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote>Unlike you were during tso, who cried shadowknights were not overpowered. i havent seen a single brawler that hasnt stated brawlers are overpowered in todays game. What i have seen is brawlers stating changes need to be made whether its content based or small class changes. What i have seen is brawlers not wanting to get nerfed into oblivion based on a self serving shadowknight who wants 1/3 the tank classes in game relegated to the worst tank in game based on some self induced hallucination of a role that makes them a short duration tank that takes more damage then scouts tanking.</blockquote>(( Personally, as far as 99% of the population are concerned (heroic groups and easy raids), I still find that the most powerful tank class right now is: Shadowknight.They have *everything* that is needed to be a rounded tank class for small groups, groups in instanced and contested content, x2 raids and easier raiding. There is not one single area in which they lack. They need absolutely nothing at all in the way of general improvements.This is why I am astounded by this one person coming here and bareface lieing over and over, trying to get my class (Monk), and the brawler classes in general, nerfed, on the basis of his wish for his class (Shadowknight) to be an over-whelmingly overpowered class again, as it was in the last expansion.He is not deluded. He is a good player, I've seen him play in the past. He is merely lieing through his teeth. ))

Buzzing

08-29-2011, 04:01 PM

<cite>Gungo@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote>want to try again?</blockquote>yes...Please coment and not flameHis last post only stated his oppinion on changes his class needs.

Buzzing

08-29-2011, 04:03 PM

Bruener

08-29-2011, 04:06 PM

<cite>Buzzing@Butcherblock wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Gungo@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote>All in all i beleive in your general idea that bezerkers, shadowknights, bruisers should be the highest dps counterparts with the best aoe agro snaps. ANd i beleive that monks, paladins, and gaurdians should be the best single target maintanks with less dps then all 3 of the above counterparts and no aoe positionals. This would allow classes to betray to what their guild needs an offtank or maintank.</blockquote>That would be the general idea that I am going for yes. Thank you for the input.</blockquote>What is described there than is a a buffing to SKs and Zerks with giving them probably an ability like Mantis and a buff to Paladins giving them the ability to block AEs like a Guard. It also means stripping Mantis from Monks and lowering Bruiser survivability.It might work if content actually supported the type of OT that TSO and SF needed. You know lots of adds coming throughout encounters a ton and not doing massive AEs.Content now that needs an OT basically requires two MT-types. Both tanks have to be able to handle multiple spikes.

Caethre

08-29-2011, 04:09 PM

(( Incorrect. That entire post points out that far from his claim that brawlers are overpowered, if any one fighter class is overpowered right now, it is Shadowknight.And yes, I do believe his whole contribution to this thread and other threads, is intended to try to get other classes nerfed with the aim of making his own class grossly overpowered. Calling for nerfs, directly or indirectly (by saying all other classes need buffs) is very specifically against forum rules. Point that out, if you want to point out "flaming" too. ))

Talathion

08-29-2011, 04:13 PM

<cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Buzzing@Butcherblock wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Gungo@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote>All in all i beleive in your general idea that bezerkers, shadowknights, bruisers should be the highest dps counterparts with the best aoe agro snaps. ANd i beleive that monks, paladins, and gaurdians should be the best single target maintanks with less dps then all 3 of the above counterparts and no aoe positionals. This would allow classes to betray to what their guild needs an offtank or maintank.</blockquote>That would be the general idea that I am going for yes. Thank you for the input.</blockquote>What is described there than is a a buffing to SKs and Zerks with giving them probably an ability like Mantis and a buff to Paladins giving them the ability to block AEs like a Guard. It also means stripping Mantis from Monks and lowering Bruiser survivability.It might work if content actually supported the type of OT that TSO and SF needed. You know lots of adds coming throughout encounters a ton and not doing massive AEs.Content now that needs an OT basically requires two MT-types. Both tanks have to be able to handle multiple spikes. </blockquote>I don't want that.I want:A Health Buff. (Like all the other tanks)Blood Rage to be fixed to a percent based heal.Juggernaut to be fixed.<div><img src="http://img571.imageshack.us/img571/2297/43472325.png" /></div>

Buzzing

08-29-2011, 04:14 PM

the reason for this post is to figure out the over all role of the diferent tank classes.if you evaluate the other class types they all have a basic, very general need that are to fill using varied abilitiesScouts: Preditor - DPS/DPS Rouge - Debuff/DPS Bard - Buff/DPSHealers: Cleric - Reactive heal/DPS Shamen - Ward heal/DPS Druid - Heal over time/DPSMages: Sorcerer - DPS/DPS Enchanter - Buff/DPS Summoner - Pet/DPSFighter: Warrior - Hold agro and not die/DPS Crusader - Hold agro and not die/DPS Brawler - Hold agro and not die/DPSFighters as it would seem are not varied at all. We are all asked to do the same thing. All Classes are supposed to dps and the rest of us have something else we need to do. If fighters are all equal we all need to be able to do our primary job on an equal level dispite the diferences.

Buzzing

08-29-2011, 04:16 PM

<cite>Felishanna@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>(( Incorrect. That entire post points out that far from his claim that brawlers are overpowered, if any one fighter class is overpowered right now, it is Shadowknight.And yes, I do believe his whole contribution to this thread and other threads, is intended to try to get other classes nerfed with the aim of making his own class grossly overpowered. Calling for nerfs, directly or indirectly (by saying all other classes need buffs) is very specifically against forum rules. Point that out, if you want to point out "flaming" too. ))</blockquote>and I have, you have still not provided any way of showing this information or any ideas for a balance. Simply stating that someone has called for a nerf and that you feel they are overpowered is not contributing.Please provide reasons and solutions that I can use to compile a good recomendation.

Bruener

08-29-2011, 04:18 PM

<cite>Felishanna@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Gungo@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote>Unlike you were during tso, who cried shadowknights were not overpowered. i havent seen a single brawler that hasnt stated brawlers are overpowered in todays game. What i have seen is brawlers stating changes need to be made whether its content based or small class changes. What i have seen is brawlers not wanting to get nerfed into oblivion based on a self serving shadowknight who wants 1/3 the tank classes in game relegated to the worst tank in game based on some self induced hallucination of a role that makes them a short duration tank that takes more damage then scouts tanking.</blockquote>(( Personally, as far as 99% of the population are concerned (heroic groups and easy raids), I still find that the most powerful tank class right now is: Shadowknight.They have *everything* that is needed to be a rounded tank class for small groups, groups in instanced and contested content, x2 raids and easier raiding. There is not one single area in which they lack. They need absolutely nothing at all in the way of general improvements.This is why I am astounded by this one person coming here and bareface lieing over and over, trying to get my class (Monk), and the brawler classes in general, nerfed, on the basis of his wish for his class (Shadowknight) to be an over-whelmingly overpowered class again, as it was in the last expansion.He is not deluded. He is a good player, I've seen him play in the past. He is merely lieing through his teeth. ))</blockquote>To be fair, I do not play heroic content except for maybe 1 run through an new zone to check it out. You are talking completely from an aspect of the game that is just plain easy for any tank class to tank (except that new HM zone which I heard you have to be a Brawler or die). Heroic is easy, and itemization and mechanics allow for ALL fighters to have enough survivability AND hate to do the job easy.I am talking from what I do and see...and that is progressive raiding. In fact a lot of the people here are talking from a raiding stand point. So while you may think I am lying thru my teeth for some reason, my guess is I am talking about something you really just don't know about because you don't play that type of content.Do you think strike thru is an issue in heroic content that people talk about? Do you think big huge massive AEs that you have to be able to prevent the damage on is an issue in heroic content? Its not.I can honestly tell you that I don't care what heroic tanking looks like. I know all Fighters can do it no problem...and from that stand point it looks balanced. I can also honestly tell you that in progressive raiding it is not balanced. You get Brawlers or you don't kill new mobs, period.For some reason though people will continue to disagree with me even though they are saying the same things only in a little more flowery way hoping they don't get nerfed too hard. Understandable, since it always seems to happen that way. The last couple alone are great examples of what happens...just look at where SKs were and where they are now in raiding. And than look at where Guards were in RoK and where they ended up in TSO. Adjustments need to be done simply for the health of the game and more specifically to have raids actually needing defensive healers to deal with damage instead of the Fighter being able to "mitigate" damage so much that raids just want to run with 5 healers, 4 of them being Inq and the other a Mystic.

Buzzing

08-29-2011, 04:22 PM

<cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Buzzing@Butcherblock wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Gungo@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote>All in all i beleive in your general idea that bezerkers, shadowknights, bruisers should be the highest dps counterparts with the best aoe agro snaps. ANd i beleive that monks, paladins, and gaurdians should be the best single target maintanks with less dps then all 3 of the above counterparts and no aoe positionals. This would allow classes to betray to what their guild needs an offtank or maintank.</blockquote>That would be the general idea that I am going for yes. Thank you for the input.</blockquote>What is described there than is a a buffing to SKs and Zerks with giving them probably an ability like Mantis and a buff to Paladins giving them the ability to block AEs like a Guard. It also means stripping Mantis from Monks and lowering Bruiser survivability.It might work if content actually supported the type of OT that TSO and SF needed. You know lots of adds coming throughout encounters a ton and not doing massive AEs.Content now that needs an OT basically requires two MT-types. Both tanks have to be able to handle multiple spikes. </blockquote>I agree with you. Thats why I mentioned that both Zerkers and SKs also need another boost to spike damage survivability. However if the plate tanks are given the ability to survive the massive damage from the hardest mobs, Brawlers do not at all need to be nerfed. This is only my oppinion but bringing all the tanks on par with the ability to survive multiple otherwise-deathblows then we would all be varied in the play style but accomplish the same goal.it is only my oppinion but nerfing isn't the answer unless the content changes.

Buzzing

08-29-2011, 04:27 PM

<cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote>For some reason though people will continue to disagree with me even though they are saying the same things only in a little more flowery way hoping they don't get nerfed too hard. Understandable, since it always seems to happen that way. The last couple alone are great examples of what happens...just look at where SKs were and where they are now in raiding. And than look at where Guards were in RoK and where they ended up in TSO. Adjustments need to be done simply for the health of the game and more specifically to have raids actually needing defensive healers to deal with damage instead of the Fighter being able to "mitigate" damage so much that raids just want to run with 5 healers, 4 of them being Inq and the other a Mystic.</blockquote>The only real argueing you are going to get is when you call for a large nerf to class that is actually working well. It is hard to picture what it would be like if every tank had the tools to live through the aoe damage but buffing several classes while nerfing others has not actually worked in the past and my guess is that it won't work now.

Silzin

08-29-2011, 04:30 PM

I think that a lot of the problems with the tank classes being able to survive and DPS can and should be addressed with the stances. Make the offensive stances actually increase the dps of the tank noticeably, and make the defensive stance of the tank help with agro and survivability. The stances need to help with the tanks main roll ether AoE or ST. The brawlers for the most part have this and from what I have seen the other tanks stances are lacking. This change would help tank in all content and not just the hardest mobs that are probably harder then intended. This is where I would start looking for some adjustments all around.

Buzzing

08-29-2011, 04:34 PM

<cite>Silzin@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote>I think that a lot of the problems with the tank classes being able to survive and DPS can and should be addressed with the stances. Make the offensive stances actually increase the dps of the tank noticeably, and make the defensive stance of the tank help with agro and survivability. The stances need to help with the tanks main roll ether AoE or ST. The brawlers for the most part have this and from what I have seen the other tanks stances are lacking. This change would help tank in all content and not just the hardest mobs that are probably harder then intended. This is where I would start looking for some adjustments all around.</blockquote>it would be a good start, thank you for the input

Caethre

08-29-2011, 04:41 PM

<cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote>To be fair, I do not play heroic content except for maybe 1 run through an new zone to check it out. You are talking completely from an aspect of the game that is just plain easy for any tank class to tank (except that new HM zone which I heard you have to be a Brawler or die). Heroic is easy, and itemization and mechanics allow for ALL fighters to have enough survivability AND hate to do the job easy.I am talking from what I do and see...and that is progressive raiding. In fact a lot of the people here are talking from a raiding stand point. So while you may think I am lying thru my teeth for some reason, my guess is I am talking about something you really just don't know about because you don't play that type of content.Do you think strike thru is an issue in heroic content that people talk about? Do you think big huge massive AEs that you have to be able to prevent the damage on is an issue in heroic content? Its not.I can honestly tell you that I don't care what heroic tanking looks like. I know all Fighters can do it no problem...and from that stand point it looks balanced. I can also honestly tell you that in progressive raiding it is not balanced. You get Brawlers or you don't kill new mobs, period.For some reason though people will continue to disagree with me even though they are saying the same things only in a little more flowery way hoping they don't get nerfed too hard. Understandable, since it always seems to happen that way. The last couple alone are great examples of what happens...just look at where SKs were and where they are now in raiding. And than look at where Guards were in RoK and where they ended up in TSO. Adjustments need to be done simply for the health of the game and more specifically to have raids actually needing defensive healers to deal with damage instead of the Fighter being able to "mitigate" damage so much that raids just want to run with 5 healers, 4 of them being Inq and the other a Mystic.</blockquote>(( And this right here is the problem. You are focusing on an area where only 1% of the playerbase is at, and you openly admit you do not care about how any changes might affect the 99% of us who do actually play mostly in heroic content.Yes, it is "plain easy" as you put it, for any tank "in raidgear" to tank any heroic content. But again, that is not where most players are at, is it?The reality for the heroic geared tank, who has some x2 gear but barely has ever been on DOV x4 raid, is very very different.As I said earlier, a heroic-geared monk can indeed tank the harder instances, if, and only if, they can get all the right classes. Otherwise, our hate is plain insufficient.For every successful ToRZ, POS, x2, whatever, I have been in where I have been MT, I have also been on a failed one, due to either a lack of the correct classes (which happens a lot for normal, non-hardcore raidguild players), or just a plain lack of people at the right gear level (which is the same for all MT classes, of course, it's another issue entirely).I see *exactly* the same things when I log in my healer or dps character and join groups or x2 with brawler MTs (again, not counting those with excessive raidgear, thats the gear talking then not the class). If they have the +hate, we win. If not, we fail.But when I join a group with an SK tank? They can be awful, hardly have a clue how to play, but still, we win, because their aggro is rock solid. Actually, same for a Pally tank, except the Pally has a lot less DPS as a rule than the SK, so the group has to make up for it.Want a group as Rygorr or PQ-geared SK and want to tank heroic instances? Piece of cake.Want to do it as a Monk? Get a dirge and coercer, or be very lucky on having decent players in your group, and it is also a piece of cake. But can't get a dirge, and can only get an illy and mages? May as well go home, that group is going to fail. Been there, done that.This is why I react so poorly to being told by a shadowknight that the monk class is the one that is overpowered.In my world, the exact opposite is what I see.SOE *must not* balance classes for the 1% scenario. They need to be balanced for the 99%.I'm not daft, I know my class has some lovely abilities now, which are balanced by my class's relatively terrible AE hate generation, which is why I haven't been posting about this subject all over. I know brawlers are not in the horrid place they once were.Right now I can join a raid and people will actually ask "who is MT?" if there is me and an SK present. That never used to happen!It absolutely must remain that way. ))

Bruener

08-29-2011, 04:48 PM

<cite>Buzzing@Butcherblock wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote>For some reason though people will continue to disagree with me even though they are saying the same things only in a little more flowery way hoping they don't get nerfed too hard. Understandable, since it always seems to happen that way. The last couple alone are great examples of what happens...just look at where SKs were and where they are now in raiding. And than look at where Guards were in RoK and where they ended up in TSO. Adjustments need to be done simply for the health of the game and more specifically to have raids actually needing defensive healers to deal with damage instead of the Fighter being able to "mitigate" damage so much that raids just want to run with 5 healers, 4 of them being Inq and the other a Mystic.</blockquote>The only real argueing you are going to get is when you call for a large nerf to class that is actually working well. It is hard to picture what it would be like if every tank had the tools to live through the aoe damage but buffing several classes while nerfing others has not actually worked in the past and my guess is that it won't work now.</blockquote>Sometimes its about much healthier mechanics instead of "care-bear" for everybody.Lets look at it like this...IF you suddenly give other Fighters a boost to give them the same type of damage handlying tools how is that going to change healer mechanics? How does having Fighters block or prevent almost every spike damage situation affect healer useage? How does it affect how much more they have to adjust mobs to make them harder in further progression? Double the amount of AEs?If they don't fix it now all SOE is going to do is create worse mechanics to bypass the problem and it accomplishes exactly the same exact thing.

Buzzing

08-29-2011, 04:49 PM

<cite>Felishanna@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>(( And this right here is the problem. You are focusing on an area where only 1% of the playerbase is at, and you openly admit you do not care about how any changes might affect the 99% of us who do actually play mostly in heroic content.Yes, it is "plain easy" as you put it, for any tank "in raidgear" to tank any heroic content. But again, that is not where most players are at, is it?The reality for the heroic geared tank, who has some x2 gear but barely has ever been on DOV x4 raid, is very very different.As I said earlier, a heroic-geared monk can indeed tank the harder instances, if, and only if, they can get all the right classes. Otherwise, our hate is plain insufficient.For every successful ToRZ, POS, x2, whatever, I have been in where I have been MT, I have also been on a failed one, due to either a lack of the correct classes (which happens a lot for normal, non-hardcore raidguild players), or just a plain lack of people at the right gear level (which is the same for all MT classes, of course, it's another issue entirely).I see *exactly* the same things when I log in my healer or dps character and join groups or x2 with brawler MTs (again, not counting those with excessive raidgear, thats the gear talking then not the class). If they have the +hate, we win. If not, we fail.But when I join a group with an SK tank? They can be awful, hardly have a clue how to play, but still, we win, because their aggro is rock solid. Actually, same for a Pally tank, except the Pally has a lot less DPS as a rule than the SK, so the group has to make up for it.Want a group as Rygorr or PQ-geared SK and want to tank heroic instances? Piece of cake.Want to do it as a Monk? Get a dirge and coercer, or be very lucky on having decent players in your group, and it is also a piece of cake. But can't get a dirge, and can only get an illy and mages? May as well go home, that group is going to fail. Been there, done that.This is why I react so poorly to being told by a shadowknight that the monk class is the one that is overpowered.In my world, the exact opposite is what I see.SOE *must not* balance classes for the 1% scenario. They need to be balanced for the 99%.I'm not daft, I know my class has some lovely abilities now, which are balanced by my class's relatively terrible AE hate generation, which is why I haven't been posting about this subject all over. I know brawlers are not in the horrid place they once were.Right now I can join a raid and people will actually ask "who is MT?" if there is me and an SK present. That never used to happen!It absolutely must remain that way. ))</blockquote>Then your oppinion is that all the tanks are fine?Your reasoning is because they can all tank heroic content?Just trying to tackle your point of view so that I can evaluate where any changes may cause the heroic content to break in terms of tanks.

Buzzing

08-29-2011, 04:52 PM

<cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Buzzing@Butcherblock wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote>For some reason though people will continue to disagree with me even though they are saying the same things only in a little more flowery way hoping they don't get nerfed too hard. Understandable, since it always seems to happen that way. The last couple alone are great examples of what happens...just look at where SKs were and where they are now in raiding. And than look at where Guards were in RoK and where they ended up in TSO. Adjustments need to be done simply for the health of the game and more specifically to have raids actually needing defensive healers to deal with damage instead of the Fighter being able to "mitigate" damage so much that raids just want to run with 5 healers, 4 of them being Inq and the other a Mystic.</blockquote>The only real argueing you are going to get is when you call for a large nerf to class that is actually working well. It is hard to picture what it would be like if every tank had the tools to live through the aoe damage but buffing several classes while nerfing others has not actually worked in the past and my guess is that it won't work now.</blockquote>Sometimes its about much healthier mechanics instead of "care-bear" for everybody.Lets look at it like this...IF you suddenly give other Fighters a boost to give them the same type of damage handlying tools how is that going to change healer mechanics? How does having Fighters block or prevent almost every spike damage situation affect healer useage? How does it affect how much more they have to adjust mobs to make them harder in further progression? Double the amount of AEs?If they don't fix it now all SOE is going to do is create worse mechanics to bypass the problem and it accomplishes exactly the same exact thing.</blockquote>So you believe that it would be better to nerf brawlers and adjust the content to match?Again I am only trying to understand.

Caethre

08-29-2011, 05:11 PM

<cite>Buzzing@Butcherblock wrote:</cite><blockquote>Then your oppinion is that all the tanks are fine?Your reasoning is because they can all tank heroic content?Just trying to tackle your point of view so that I can evaluate where any changes may cause the heroic content to break in terms of tanks.</blockquote>(( My opinion is, there are some issues, for every class, there *always* will be. For Monks, it is AE hate generation, for others, it will be other things. However, in the main, for normal geared tanks vs normal content, tank classes are more balanced right now than they have ever been.Adding a little more AE hate to brawlers, a little more healing power to pallies, one extra temp spike-damage protection tool to some other classes, sure, fine, thats small tinkering that will do little if any harm to anything, and will probably be beneficial to all.But wholescale nerfs, made to accomodate some feedback from the 1% of players doing the very top-end hardmode raid content, and wrecking class balance for everyone else? No, that cannot happen.I have strong memories of times past, where brawlers were rejected from groups and easier raids alike, simply because people considered them weak and pointless. Any changes made to the tank classes absolutely must not upset the balance for the heroic and easy raiding game.I will be blunt. If presented with the choice ... make the classes balanced for the tiny number doing hardmode raiding but make some classes pointless/useless in the rest of the playerbase ... or make the classes balanced for almost everyone but have there being imbalances for the very few ... the latter option is the ONLY option to be chosen. ))

Buzzing

08-29-2011, 05:34 PM

<cite>Felishanna@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>Adding a little more AE hate to brawlers, a little more healing power to pallies, one extra temp spike-damage protection tool to some other classes, sure, fine, thats small tinkering that will do little if any harm to anything, and will probably be beneficial to all.</blockquote>Okay cool, believe it not your actually asking for basically the same things though you are asking for more aoe hate generation for brawlers.Given that the over all point of view is that Bruisers are the more dps of the two, they in turn should be given more aoe damage and that will give them more aoe agro. This is currently how it works with the plate tanks. However the other more defencive tanks (Guardian, Paladin, Monk) Tend to be slightly lacking in the area. I will say that out of the three Paladins are the best off and Guardians have the mini amends. Monks could use a bit more hate to bring them up to the other defensive tanks in terms of agro.Edit: forgot to mention that in my post we did call for more dps be given to bruisers. I also added that monks might use some love in the aoe hate department.

Faildozer

08-29-2011, 05:51 PM

I would be ok with monks having some sort of aoe hate generation if not a main dps ability something like the zerker TSO endline which doesnt do great damage but adds some ae hate control. On the topic of berserkers, they like paladins have a lot of abilities which just need to be reworked because they are super underpowered or even pointless given the stats available now. Open wounds, juggernaut and some of their defensive temps could use some work they also do need some more dps because they are an offensive tank.Feli, a LOT more than 1% are raiding and while SKs may be fine in group settings and you may feel that monks are not, in a raid setting the reverse is true. I dont think we should be calling for any tanks to be nerfed at this point but I think all tanks could use at least some tweaking and paladins could use a reworking of their abilities so they will be useful in raid settings. Talathion and Fel asked for more heals and wards, that wont do anything for us on the issues that we are struggling with.Maybe change one of our self heals to be a short lasting defensive temp that would decrease the damage taken by X% for a short duration, 10 seconds or so. You could even make it only affect spell damage and it would STILL be a lot more useful for us than it currently is even if you increased it to heal for 100k simply because we are usually capped off and heals are useless when you get 1 shot. Add a 2 charge magical stoneskin on magic hits over 30% of max health on our stonewall ability would be an ideal change without having to do too much to the class or overpowering us.I just want sony to give all tanks the tools to be able to deal with all the crazy mechanics they have put in and some of the classes have not been properly adjusted given how the game has changed over the years.

Caethre

08-29-2011, 06:07 PM

<cite>Faildozer@Permafrost wrote:</cite><blockquote>I would be ok with monks having some sort of aoe hate generation if not a main dps ability something like the zerker TSO endline which doesnt do great damage but adds some ae hate control.Yes, hate is the issue, not really DPS, not that I've seen anyway. People don't generally choose their tanks on their DPS, but more on their ability to stay alive and their ability to hold aggro, of course.Feli, a LOT more than 1% are raiding...Obviously I don't mean things like TOFS x2 raiding, as unguilded players join pickup raids for that every day, that is now in the mainstream. I don't even mean the easier x4 raids. But I did say, 1% in top-end hardmode raiding. It might be 0.5% or it might be 2%; the precise number isn't the point - the point is - it clearly is only a very very tiny minority and class balance across the board should never be based on it....while SKs may be fine in group settings and you may feel that monks are not, in a raid setting the reverse is true.I don't actually think monks are in a bad place, as I said. I just think AE hate is our weakness, and unless group setups are right, it can be painful. Conversely, I don't believe SKs have any weaknesses at all in groups or easy raids. I didn't comment (and can't comment) on balance in hardmode raiding.I dont think we should be calling for any tanks to be nerfed at this point but I think all tanks could use at least some tweaking.Tweaking is good. Massive changes are bad. In general, massive changes tend to be implemented badly too.</blockquote>

Faildozer

08-29-2011, 06:41 PM

<cite>Felishanna@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Faildozer@Permafrost wrote:</cite><blockquote>I would be ok with monks having some sort of aoe hate generation if not a main dps ability something like the zerker TSO endline which doesnt do great damage but adds some ae hate control.Yes, hate is the issue, not really DPS, not that I've seen anyway. People don't generally choose their tanks on their DPS, but more on their ability to stay alive and their ability to hold aggro, of course.Feli, a LOT more than 1% are raiding...Obviously I don't mean things like TOFS x2 raiding, as unguilded players join pickup raids for that every day, that is now in the mainstream. I don't even mean the easier x4 raids. But I did say, 1% in top-end hardmode raiding. It might be 0.5% or it might be 2%; the precise number isn't the point - the point is - it clearly is only a very very tiny minority and class balance across the board should never be based on it....while SKs may be fine in group settings and you may feel that monks are not, in a raid setting the reverse is true.I don't actually think monks are in a bad place, as I said. I just think AE hate is our weakness, and unless group setups are right, it can be painful. Conversely, I don't believe SKs have any weaknesses at all in groups or easy raids. I didn't comment (and can't comment) on balance in hardmode raiding.I dont think we should be calling for any tanks to be nerfed at this point but I think all tanks could use at least some tweaking.Tweaking is good. Massive changes are bad. In general, massive changes tend to be implemented badly too.</blockquote></blockquote>alright, i guess that is what i had taken from your posts. I think you have to balance classes around raiding at least to an extent. If something is useful when raiding its goign to be useful when grouping and soloing but you cant NOT fix something because its a non issue when grouping or doing easy content. They also have put in aa choices that are obviously designed around certain content. Just using the crusader holy tree you can spec for a group power regen and stackign crit bonus buff which is obviously only good for soloing or grouping, you can spec for manawall which is decent for raiding or you can spec for an encounter aoe with a group cure which is good for all spectrums of gameplay. They want people to be able to make these choices based on what they are doing but you do have to have some balancing in regards to raiding as well as grouping and soloing.

Buzzing

08-29-2011, 06:48 PM

<cite>Faildozer@Permafrost wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Felishanna@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite>If something is useful when raiding its goign to be useful when grouping and soloing</blockquote>the reverse is not true however. Devine aura for example is extremely useful in groups and while soloing but it is worthless in raids. (which is why I suggested changing it and removing the below %50 health as it would literaly not change group content at all but hugely impact surviving an aoe in raids)

BChizzle

08-29-2011, 07:16 PM

SK the emergency tank! I like it!

LardLord

08-29-2011, 07:34 PM

<cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite><blockquote>SK the emergency tank! I like it!</blockquote>They should come with a warning label: "Only tank in case of emergency" <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" />

circusgirl

08-29-2011, 11:25 PM

<cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Vinka@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Quabi@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>SKs are emergency tanks!</blockquote>LOL, yeah regulated to E-tank without any of the tools though. WOOT!!!!</blockquote>E-tank still isn't a real position. And which am I, ignorant or dastardly?</blockquote>I think you already know which one you are, or maybe you don't realize that too.Notice how the label is Emergency/CC tank. That is a very real position and one that Brawlers have always been phenomenal at. In SF having a Bruiser that could CC encounters was a huge advantage in knocking down progression mobs.There is a reason that Brawlers get more snap type abilities, have abilities to drop mobs, have abilities to make sure they take no damage while they do it, have the best utility to put on another tank while they tank, have hate transfer, superior intercedes, etc etc etc.CC has always been important and Brawlers are the masters of it. Now they simply have the abilities to own that niche plus their survivibility was bumped to own every other niche. No other tank has the tools to be pushed into that position...they were not built that way. If SOE deems they want to give other tanks as many tools than it would probably balance tanks because everybody would have those fast reuse abilities that are owning the game right now. Its not very healthy for game mechanics though.</blockquote>Eeesh, where to start. Okay:1)Monks are terrible at crowd control. We're great at dealing with things like a single mem-wiping mob, or one add with cooperative strike, as we have multiple single-target snaps, but we have no good means of grabbing aggro on a large group of mobs. Bruisers can do this slightly better, but a shadowknight, zerker, or paladin will wipe the floor with both brawler classes when it comes to "crowd control." This is a big part of why we were so terrible during TSO: it was wave after wave of crowds, and we couldn't control them. 2)Look, feign death is a relic of EQ1 and an ability that's meant to help us solo. It says nothing about our class from a raiding perspective.3)Most tanks have abilities that temporarily protect them against damage.4)The only buff we have for other tanks is our avoidance lend. All tanks have an avoidance lend, that clearly does not give you any information about developer intent.Your idea of us as a "Crowd Control" tank is deeply, deeply flawed, because this is the area where monks really perform the absolute worst. The only class worse at crowd control than monks is guardians. You want to know what monks are made for? Frankly, it's main-tanking. Surviving against a single, hard-hitting mob which memwipes is what we're best at, that's what all those "emergency" abilities are for.

Bruener

08-29-2011, 11:44 PM

<cite>Vinka@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>Eeesh, where to start. Okay:1)Monks are terrible at crowd control. We're great at dealing with things like a single mem-wiping mob, or one add with cooperative strike, as we have multiple single-target snaps, but we have no good means of grabbing aggro on a large group of mobs. Bruisers can do this slightly better, but a shadowknight, zerker, or paladin will wipe the floor with both brawler classes when it comes to "crowd control." This is a big part of why we were so terrible during TSO: it was wave after wave of crowds, and we couldn't control the. Mantis destroys your whole argument here.2)Look, feign death is a relic of EQ1 and an ability that's meant to help us solo. It says nothing about our class from a raiding perspective.FD is still a very useful ability, its just not used in todays game much because Brawlers are doing all the tanking instead of CC'ing.3)Most tanks have abilities that temporarily protect them against damage.Not as many and not as up as often. And in the cases of avoidance ones not 100%.4)The only buff we have for other tanks is our avoidance lend. All tanks have an avoidance lend, that clearly does not give you any information about developer intent.A superior avoidance lend because of superior avoidance, and in the case of Bruisers a higher % chance to use avoidance. A buff that has been very strong for a while to avoid damage on another while you are out and about CC'ing.Your idea of us as a "Crowd Control" tank is deeply, deeply flawed, because this is the area where monks really perform the absolute worst. The only class worse at crowd control than monks is guardians. You want to know what monks are made for? Frankly, it's main-tanking. Surviving against a single, hard-hitting mob which memwipes is what we're best at, that's what all those "emergency" abilities are for. You honestly think abilities like Peel and Tsunami were originally made for Monks to MT? Do you think Devs gave Monks Mantis so they could sit there and MT? Or having access to FD so frequently just for Monks to solo? Sorry, it was all desinged for CC.</blockquote>

circusgirl

08-30-2011, 12:56 AM

<cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Vinka@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>Eeesh, where to start. Okay:1)Monks are terrible at crowd control. We're great at dealing with things like a single mem-wiping mob, or one add with cooperative strike, as we have multiple single-target snaps, but we have no good means of grabbing aggro on a large group of mobs. Bruisers can do this slightly better, but a shadowknight, zerker, or paladin will wipe the floor with both brawler classes when it comes to "crowd control." This is a big part of why we were so terrible during TSO: it was wave after wave of crowds, and we couldn't control the. Mantis destroys your whole argument here.To take Mantis we have to drop either crane flock or chi. Mantis is only truly effective with crane flock to back it up, and if we drop chi then we no longer have the fast reuse on that deathsave that makes us such good main tanks. We can fill this role, but we basially have to choose between single target survivability or AE aggro. This means we can play the offtank, but we can't stay strong in all areas. Also...if your criteria for being a "Crowd Control" tank is AE aggro, then how is this different from what zerkers can do with their 100% AE autoattack? Or paladins/shadowknights with your hotbars made out of AE spells? Brawlers don't do this role any better than other tanks.2)Look, feign death is a relic of EQ1 and an ability that's meant to help us solo. It says nothing about our class from a raiding perspective.FD is still a very useful ability, its just not used in todays game much because Brawlers are doing all the tanking instead of CC'ing.FD is not a useful ability. FDing during a raid is a terrible, terrible idea. If it were good, then you'd see brawlers speccing altruism to give other tanks the ability to FD, and when was the last time anyone other than a duoer specced altruism?3)Most tanks have abilities that temporarily protect them against damage.Not as many and not as up as often. And in the cases of avoidance ones not 100%.I will concede that strikethrough immunity should be added to those buffs so that they actually give real avoidance.4)The only buff we have for other tanks is our avoidance lend. All tanks have an avoidance lend, that clearly does not give you any information about developer intent.A superior avoidance lend because of superior avoidance, and in the case of Bruisers a higher % chance to use avoidance. A buff that has been very strong for a while to avoid damage on another while you are out and about CC'ing.It's only superior avoidance if we're actively tanking. If you have us in some made-up "emergency" tank role where we're dpsing 90% of the time until something goes wrong, we'll be in offensive and be the worst avoidance lend.Your idea of us as a "Crowd Control" tank is deeply, deeply flawed, because this is the area where monks really perform the absolute worst. The only class worse at crowd control than monks is guardians. You want to know what monks are made for? Frankly, it's main-tanking. Surviving against a single, hard-hitting mob which memwipes is what we're best at, that's what all those "emergency" abilities are for. You honestly think abilities like Peel and Tsunami were originally made for Monks to MT? Do you think Devs gave Monks Mantis so they could sit there and MT? Or having access to FD so frequently just for Monks to solo? Sorry, it was all desinged for CC.Please explain to me how your vision of brawlers as a "crowd control" tank is different from the traditional role of offtank? Because frankly, I'm not seeing it. The role you're describing has been around for ages, it traditionally goes to an AE-oriented tank like a shadowknight or zerker. If you're just saying that you want brawlers to be good offtanks, then fine. But when you differentiate between offtanks and a brawler's role with this term "emergency" tank, that's when you make brawlers unhappy.Oh, and yeah. The did give FD to us just so we could solo. </blockquote></blockquote>

Corydonn

08-30-2011, 01:10 AM

Haha.

The_Cheeseman

08-30-2011, 02:01 AM

I think the most amusing part of this thread is the fact that people claim that brawlers are overpowered because so many of the newer MOBs "require" a brawler tank to beat, yet they immediately turn around and call for nerfs on brawlers. Then what? Nobody can tank the new MOBs. Seems pretty obvious to me that the new MOBs are just poorly designed and need to be adjusted. Which, oddly enough, is exactly what I have said all along.Brawlers are the best tank at handling a single, extremely hard-hitting MOB. We have tools that allow us to live through extreme damage spikes (since avoidance is often streaky) and the best single-target snaps. Our weaknesses are in multi-target encounters with MOBs that do a lot of steady, non-physical damage (which our avoidance temps don't work against).DoV content has a lot of single-target encounters with MOBs that hit extremely hard, sometimes intentionally one-shotting tanks. Obviously brawlers are going to do well against this kind of content, because that's what we are designed to do. Nerfing brawlers because we have the best tools to handle the majority of current content isn't going to make that content die any faster. What we should be asking for is a better variety of content, with encounter that cater to the strengths of other tanks and which are more difficult for brawlers to handle. That way, each tank will have its role in any given guild, since they will be needed for different encounters.It also seems like there are a number of abilities used by some tanks, especially Berserkers, which have simply not scaled appropriately with the (obscenely massive) increase in combat numbers in Velious content. I am not qualified to speak about Berserker details, but I'd definitely support a buff for that class, as it seems obviously disadvantaged at this time.

Boli32

08-30-2011, 05:49 AM

When content has been designed to hit to hit the tank hard every 45s potentially killing him that's fair enoguh that is SoE way of making it challenging.But when *only* brawlers and guardians have enough "saves" to survive every... or most hits THEN it is broken.I don't want the content to change... indeed tanks *should* cycle immunities and skills in order to survive but if only 3 tanks have the recast to *do* this then we have reached the situation we are currently in.... up a certain creek without a certain rowing impliment.I just dispise the fact pallys as a defensive tank... and we are simply cannot survive - Even when Guards were at their most broken they could still cling to the fact that no other tank could SURVIVE the content more than they could; we don't even have that.

BChizzle

08-30-2011, 05:54 AM

I am really behind this new direction of SK as the emergency tank. I really think all an SK needs now is a blue ae mezz and they will really be fullfilling the role of emergency tank and crowd control, I mean they already have the regen great buffs group cures etc this will finally make them the baby enchanters that was their vision when they were created. Great feedback on making SK's better Duele you guys will be excellent in your emergency tank roles.

Corydonn

08-30-2011, 06:02 AM

I rather see like a zonewide or AE interrupt. DARN TOOTIN those spawning adds spamming AEs.

Bruener

08-30-2011, 10:56 AM

Its almost funny watching you guys feed the Troll.

Buzzing

08-30-2011, 12:23 PM

Shame on me for not reading this while raiding last night...I have seen at least three posts from brawlers screaming to not be nerfed.If you read the posts there is only one person in here that has called for any kind of nerf to the class. Most tanks would rather just be tweeked slightly in order to survive the new content better.Please read the first post and give feedback. I have posted my feeling on the matter and adjusted the post to incorperate some of the ideas that people have had to include more ae agro for monks (because if there is a warlock in raid I don't think it is even possible for them to tank a group encounter without the warlock taking a dirt nap)I don't even know if this is going to do us much good in the long run but at least we should all come together as a comunity and try to suggest a good resolution. If at some point all of the tanks can agree on the changes it might actually get a good look at.

Silzin

08-30-2011, 12:48 PM

I think as it has been said here and other places many time is that ALL temp 100 avoid buffs that each class gets needs to be Strikethrow immune. This one change would bring all tanks up to a even playing field in the using of involns and give all tanks the surety of being able to use that temp buff to help get things stable again. All tanks need this surety, its one thing that brawlers where lacking as tanks in TSO and it is something that a tanks can deal with.

Boli32

08-30-2011, 01:01 PM

<cite>Silzin@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote>I think as it has been said here and other places many time is that ALL temp 100 avoid buffs that each class gets needs to be Strikethrow immune. This one change would bring all tanks up to a even playing field in the using of involns and give all tanks the surety of being able to use that temp buff to help get things stable again. All tanks need this surety, its one thing that brawlers where lacking as tanks in TSO and it is something that a tanks can deal with.</blockquote>It will help yes... but every other tank except pallys has a stoneskin which works against magical attacks (zerkers have perfect counter). Pallys *need* a single trigger magical stoneskin on a short recast ; with the content how it is and the current trend nothing else will bring the pally class up to the survibility it needs.Incidentally stonewall from pallys only works against frontal attacks (block); and with a shield so a disarm or adds all around means pally go splat ... just thought I'll mention this since people can't understand how fecked the class is when you are pulling HM mobs.

Buzzing

08-30-2011, 01:06 PM

Gungo

08-30-2011, 01:15 PM

Buzzing

08-30-2011, 01:31 PM

<cite>Gungo@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote>The idea is for monks paladins and guardians to have some ability to hold agro on multiple npcs so they are not useless in heroic content BUT are not as adequate as shadowknights, zerkers, and bruisers who can easily deal with multiple spawns or multiple encounters of npcs that happen frequently on raids generally at 30-45 sec intervals. I realize the content in current dov has very few AOE encounters designed this way but that doesnt disparage the class. As I believe my class as a bruiser should be at a disadvantage to paladins, guardians, and paladins on single targets as well.Other then paladins needs a reliable stone skin to compete with guardians, monks and paladins. I think those classes are fine. I do not beleive monks, guardians, paladins should get more aoe agro control because that should be their weakness.</blockquote>Given that Holy Ground and Reinforcement are on a better recast, a small increase to the over all ability to hold mobs in an instance id still a good move.However for this all to be true the dps tanks should gain a bit of a boost in dps (especially in aoe). As it stands the dps of all the tanks is fairly close.

OrcSlayer96

08-30-2011, 01:35 PM

<cite>Boli@Splitpaw wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Silzin@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote>I think as it has been said here and other places many time is that ALL temp 100 avoid buffs that each class gets needs to be Strikethrow immune. This one change would bring all tanks up to a even playing field in the using of involns and give all tanks the surety of being able to use that temp buff to help get things stable again. All tanks need this surety, its one thing that brawlers where lacking as tanks in TSO and it is something that a tanks can deal with.</blockquote>It will help yes... but every other tank except pallys has a stoneskin which works against magical attacks (zerkers have perfect counter). Pallys *need* a single trigger magical stoneskin on a short recast ; with the content how it is and the current trend nothing else will bring the pally class up to the survibility it needs.Incidentally stonewall from pallys only works against frontal attacks (block); and with a shield so a disarm or adds all around means pally go splat ... just thought I'll mention this since people can't understand how fecked the class is when you are pulling HM mobs.</blockquote>Hmm, i would think a easy change would be for the Devs to change the worthless Holy Avenger Myth buff/ epic repercussions spell from a 5 hit point pet that dies on any damage before it can heal, to a 90 second native recast magical hit stoneskin that triggers if damage is 30% or greater and modifiable by recast(cap at 45 seconds).Take our divine favor aa in the paladin tree and at max rank of 5 points(requiring a min of 75 aa's spent in tree), give us a second trigger on divine favor. Change Stonewall to use use uncontested dodge mechanic instead of block for the physical immunity that we are without now with raid mechanics.Change Holy Ground so it is castable on the run similar to ward and heals, the way it is written it is in fact 2 spells, the first fires off the intial hate position/damage/threat, the second has the trigger of hitting mob(s) with threat and damge for each combat hit in the 13 second time frame. Any movement before the 2nd portion of the spell goes off interupts the spell and we have to recast(including mon knockbacks/knockups. Either treat it as a comabt art or non interuptable on movement please.

Buzzing

08-30-2011, 02:03 PM

<cite>OrcSlayer96 wrote:</cite><blockquote>Hmm, i would think a easy change would be for the Devs to change the worthless Holy Avenger Myth buff/ epic repercussions spell from a 5 hit point pet that dies on any damage before it can heal, to a 90 second native recast magical hit stoneskin that triggers if damage is 30% or greater and modifiable by recast(cap at 45 seconds).Take our divine favor aa in the paladin tree and at max rank of 5 points(requiring a min of 75 aa's spent in tree), give us a second trigger on divine favor. Change Stonewall to use use uncontested dodge mechanic instead of block for the physical immunity that we are without now with raid mechanics.Change Holy Ground so it is castable on the run similar to ward and heals, the way it is written it is in fact 2 spells, the first fires off the intial hate position/damage/threat, the second has the trigger of hitting mob(s) with threat and damge for each combat hit in the 13 second time frame. Any movement before the 2nd portion of the spell goes off interupts the spell and we have to recast(including mon knockbacks/knockups. Either treat it as a comabt art or non interuptable on movement please.</blockquote>The only thing I will disagree with is the myth clicky... Yes it is lame and doesn't do anything for us in raids but the rest of our mythical is amazing. However you could change arch healing (as it is of no use as is unless your dueling) and change it to the spell your talking about. Again though it would never be 45 seconds at the cap unless the timer didn't start until after it went off. Making us completely imune to the aoe would be completely unfair. A one minute recast would mean you could cycle threw all of our saves for some time. It would mean that Monks would still be better in a power drain fight but Paladins would be a better option in other encounters.

Bruener

08-30-2011, 02:42 PM

Playing the game of just buff everybody else up to the OP'd level of Brawlers....All Fighters - Increase all DPS currently when Offensive to be more in line with T2 DPS classes. Make all avoidance abilities immune to strikethru and give all Fighters 360 degree avoidance since groups of mobs are made to try and move behind you. Increase all Figher taunt generation to be 5x what it currently is to allow for much better self hate generation....basically allow for more flexibility than having to be locked into MT type groups for transfers to tank anything.Crusaders - Add 1 single block type ability on 2 min recast. Something original would be a single Magic reflect if damage is more than 30% of Crusaders health. Remove shield restriction on Knights Stance to actually make 2h close to DW in DPS.SKs- Make Bloodletter castable in-combat. Change Mythical buff to generate significant hate as the buff was originally intended.Of course than I would want to know why any raid would want to take a Templar/Defiler/Warden over multiple Inq/Mystics. So you might as well follow up this thread with what healers need to be balanced along with what SOE can add to content to make it more difficult to need more defensive healers.

Buzzing

08-30-2011, 03:08 PM

<cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote>Playing the game of just buff everybody else up to the OP'd level of Brawlers....All Fighters - Increase all DPS currently when Offensive to be more in line with T2 DPS classes. Make all avoidance abilities immune to strikethru and give all Fighters 360 degree avoidance since groups of mobs are made to try and move behind you. Increase all Figher taunt generation to be 5x what it currently is to allow for much better self hate generation....basically allow for more flexibility than having to be locked into MT type groups for transfers to tank anything.not all fighters need a boost to dps, if we maintain the current view of the fighters you would only really buff SK, Bruiser and Zerker. Guard only need a small increase if any. There is no real reason to give all fighters 360 block. It is currently working fine aside from strikethrough. If you want that much hate gain you should be fairly locked into your group set up (Paladins are the exception but it has been our downfall for gaining any sort of help to the class)Crusaders - Add 1 single block type ability on 2 min recast. Something original would be a single Magic reflect if damage is more than 30% of Crusaders health. Remove shield restriction on Knights Stance to actually make 2h close to DW in DPS.Nothing really wrong with this /shrugSKs- Make Bloodletter castable in-combat. Change Mythical buff to generate significant hate as the buff was originally intended.SK get three triggers of Bloodletter because it can not be cast in combat. If you want the Paladins ability to cast the death save in combat it should be only trigger to match as well.Of course than I would want to know why any raid would want to take a Templar/Defiler/Warden over multiple Inq/Mystics. So you might as well follow up this thread with what healers need to be balanced along with what SOE can add to content to make it more difficult to need more defensive healers.I know for a fact that guilds will still role with a defiler and templar in MT group just like they do now. The over all damage you would recieve would remain unchanged. The only real diference would be the one shot wonders.</blockquote>your taking this to the extreme again...

Bruener

08-30-2011, 03:20 PM

<cite>Buzzing@Butcherblock wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote>Playing the game of just buff everybody else up to the OP'd level of Brawlers....All Fighters - Increase all DPS currently when Offensive to be more in line with T2 DPS classes. Make all avoidance abilities immune to strikethru and give all Fighters 360 degree avoidance since groups of mobs are made to try and move behind you. Increase all Figher taunt generation to be 5x what it currently is to allow for much better self hate generation....basically allow for more flexibility than having to be locked into MT type groups for transfers to tank anything.not all fighters need a boost to dps, if we maintain the current view of the fighters you would only really buff SK, Bruiser and Zerker. Guard only need a small increase if any. There is no real reason to give all fighters 360 block. It is currently working fine aside from strikethrough. If you want that much hate gain you should be fairly locked into your group set up (Paladins are the exception but it has been our downfall for gaining any sort of help to the class)Fighter DPS has fallen completely off the radar in todays game and when a T1 DPS can push out 3x the DPS of a Fighter even going fully offensive all it does is limit Fighter spots. Do you understand why SF was such a great x-pac for tanks? Guilds actually wanted to take 4 because they offered survivability without a huge loss to DPS. 360 degree avoidance makes a big difference when you are fighting groups of mobs. 2 Fighters already have it and do not die when a mob decides to break from the rest of the pack and sneak behind for an attack.Crusaders - Add 1 single block type ability on 2 min recast. Something original would be a single Magic reflect if damage is more than 30% of Crusaders health. Remove shield restriction on Knights Stance to actually make 2h close to DW in DPS.Nothing really wrong with this /shrugSKs- Make Bloodletter castable in-combat. Change Mythical buff to generate significant hate as the buff was originally intended.SK get three triggers of Bloodletter because it can not be cast in combat. If you want the Paladins ability to cast the death save in combat it should be only trigger to match as well.SKs get 2 triggers. The recast doesn't start until both triggers are spent. SKs take more damage. And its not just the Paladins ability to cast in combat...its all other Fighters ability. Bloodletter also requires multiple group members to be alive and drains their health for the amount needed which can actually put them into a position to die easier.Of course than I would want to know why any raid would want to take a Templar/Defiler/Warden over multiple Inq/Mystics. So you might as well follow up this thread with what healers need to be balanced along with what SOE can add to content to make it more difficult to need more defensive healers.I know for a fact that guilds will still role with a defiler and templar in MT group just like they do now. The over all damage you would recieve would remain unchanged. The only real diference would be the one shot wonders.Not the top guilds.</blockquote>your taking this to the extreme again...</blockquote>I see many people asking for much more, however because it is me that put this post in you make it a point to question any of my recommendations. You fail at keeping the thread to the point.

Buzzing

08-30-2011, 03:31 PM

<cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Buzzing@Butcherblock wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote>Playing the game of just buff everybody else up to the OP'd level of Brawlers....All Fighters - Increase all DPS currently when Offensive to be more in line with T2 DPS classes. Make all avoidance abilities immune to strikethru and give all Fighters 360 degree avoidance since groups of mobs are made to try and move behind you. Increase all Figher taunt generation to be 5x what it currently is to allow for much better self hate generation....basically allow for more flexibility than having to be locked into MT type groups for transfers to tank anything.not all fighters need a boost to dps, if we maintain the current view of the fighters you would only really buff SK, Bruiser and Zerker. Guard only need a small increase if any. There is no real reason to give all fighters 360 block. It is currently working fine aside from strikethrough. If you want that much hate gain you should be fairly locked into your group set up (Paladins are the exception but it has been our downfall for gaining any sort of help to the class)Fighter DPS has fallen completely off the radar in todays game and when a T1 DPS can push out 3x the DPS of a Fighter even going fully offensive all it does is limit Fighter spots. Do you understand why SF was such a great x-pac for tanks? Guilds actually wanted to take 4 because they offered survivability without a huge loss to DPS. 360 degree avoidance makes a big difference when you are fighting groups of mobs. 2 Fighters already have it and do not die when a mob decides to break from the rest of the pack and sneak behind for an attack.A great ex-pack for fighter indeed, but I don't know that that is the atual direction that SOE has intended for tanks to be going (which is the actual reason for the post to begin with). As for the mobs running behind you, it is a diference between the tanks and an advantage to playing a brawler. This has been the case all along and the plate tanks have always been able to adapt.Crusaders - Add 1 single block type ability on 2 min recast. Something original would be a single Magic reflect if damage is more than 30% of Crusaders health. Remove shield restriction on Knights Stance to actually make 2h close to DW in DPS.Nothing really wrong with this /shrugSKs- Make Bloodletter castable in-combat. Change Mythical buff to generate significant hate as the buff was originally intended.SK get three triggers of Bloodletter because it can not be cast in combat. If you want the Paladins ability to cast the death save in combat it should be only trigger to match as well.SKs get 2 triggers. The recast doesn't start until both triggers are spent. SKs take more damage. And its not just the Paladins ability to cast in combat...its all other Fighters ability. Bloodletter also requires multiple group members to be alive and drains their health for the amount needed which can actually put them into a position to die easier.I'm not an SK, that said even two triggers means you do not have to cast it on the first hit. The other fighter abilities also do not start the timer until it has triggered (at least the paladin one for sure). I have no issue with Bloodletter being able to cast in combat, but that would yet again inbalance how the rest of the deathsaves work.Of course than I would want to know why any raid would want to take a Templar/Defiler/Warden over multiple Inq/Mystics. So you might as well follow up this thread with what healers need to be balanced along with what SOE can add to content to make it more difficult to need more defensive healers.I know for a fact that guilds will still role with a defiler and templar in MT group just like they do now. The over all damage you would recieve would remain unchanged. The only real diference would be the one shot wonders.Not the top guilds.Currently the trend is still to take the defiler and templar combo. The two don't have any significant ways to stop the one hit wonders. The auto attack damage and constant hits from the named fights aren't going anywhere. You don't really (often...) Replacing those healers when a monk tanks right?</blockquote>your taking this to the extreme again...</blockquote>I see many people asking for much more, however because it is me that put this post in you make it a point to question any of my recommendations. You fail at keeping the thread to the point.I have comented on, or disregarded anyone posts that have been over the top. Several have been worse and those that have blatenly flamed other players have been pointed out for just that.</blockquote>Believe me when I say I am not trying to make all tanks blatenly overpowered. Mearly able to survive those same attacks on a somewhat even playing field.AGAIN this is all under our own assumptions of what the diferent tank class roles are, as defined by SOE.

Gungo

08-30-2011, 04:21 PM

<cite>Buzzing@Butcherblock wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Gungo@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote>The idea is for monks paladins and guardians to have some ability to hold agro on multiple npcs so they are not useless in heroic content BUT are not as adequate as shadowknights, zerkers, and bruisers who can easily deal with multiple spawns or multiple encounters of npcs that happen frequently on raids generally at 30-45 sec intervals. I realize the content in current dov has very few AOE encounters designed this way but that doesnt disparage the class. As I believe my class as a bruiser should be at a disadvantage to paladins, guardians, and paladins on single targets as well.Other then paladins needs a reliable stone skin to compete with guardians, monks and paladins. I think those classes are fine. I do not beleive monks, guardians, paladins should get more aoe agro control because that should be their weakness.</blockquote>Given that Holy Ground and Reinforcement are on a better recast, a small increase to the over all ability to hold mobs in an instance id still a good move.However for this all to be true the dps tanks should gain a bit of a boost in dps (especially in aoe). As it stands the dps of all the tanks is fairly close.</blockquote>If any of those classes are having substantial issues dealing with aoe agro in heroic content then yes it needs to be improved. But whatever improvement cannnot trivilize the AOE tanks aoe agro/dps advantage.

Buzzing

08-30-2011, 04:30 PM

<cite>Gungo@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Buzzing@Butcherblock wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Gungo@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote>The idea is for monks paladins and guardians to have some ability to hold agro on multiple npcs so they are not useless in heroic content BUT are not as adequate as shadowknights, zerkers, and bruisers who can easily deal with multiple spawns or multiple encounters of npcs that happen frequently on raids generally at 30-45 sec intervals. I realize the content in current dov has very few AOE encounters designed this way but that doesnt disparage the class. As I believe my class as a bruiser should be at a disadvantage to paladins, guardians, and paladins on single targets as well.Other then paladins needs a reliable stone skin to compete with guardians, monks and paladins. I think those classes are fine. I do not beleive monks, guardians, paladins should get more aoe agro control because that should be their weakness.</blockquote>Given that Holy Ground and Reinforcement are on a better recast, a small increase to the over all ability to hold mobs in an instance id still a good move.However for this all to be true the dps tanks should gain a bit of a boost in dps (especially in aoe). As it stands the dps of all the tanks is fairly close.</blockquote>If any of those classes are having substantial issues dealing with aoe agro in heroic content then yes it needs to be improved. But whatever improvement cannnot trivilize the AOE tanks aoe agro/dps advantage.</blockquote>that's a good point. I only think Monks are having the troube and would only need a small boost, even if it is just recast for ae snap to be on par.

Gungo

08-30-2011, 04:30 PM

<cite>Buzzing@Butcherblock wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote>Playing the game of just buff everybody else up to the OP'd level of Brawlers....All Fighters - Increase all DPS currently when Offensive to be more in line with T2 DPS classes. Make all avoidance abilities immune to strikethru and give all Fighters 360 degree avoidance since groups of mobs are made to try and move behind you. Increase all Figher taunt generation to be 5x what it currently is to allow for much better self hate generation....basically allow for more flexibility than having to be locked into MT type groups for transfers to tank anything.not all fighters need a boost to dps, if we maintain the current view of the fighters you would only really buff SK, Bruiser and Zerker. Guard only need a small increase if any. There is no real reason to give all fighters 360 block. It is currently working fine aside from strikethrough. If you want that much hate gain you should be fairly locked into your group set up (Paladins are the exception but it has been our downfall for gaining any sort of help to the class)Crusaders - Add 1 single block type ability on 2 min recast. Something original would be a single Magic reflect if damage is more than 30% of Crusaders health. Remove shield restriction on Knights Stance to actually make 2h close to DW in DPS.Nothing really wrong with this /shrugSKs- Make Bloodletter castable in-combat. Change Mythical buff to generate significant hate as the buff was originally intended.SK get three triggers of Bloodletter because it can not be cast in combat. If you want the Paladins ability to cast the death save in combat it should be only trigger to match as well.Of course than I would want to know why any raid would want to take a Templar/Defiler/Warden over multiple Inq/Mystics. So you might as well follow up this thread with what healers need to be balanced along with what SOE can add to content to make it more difficult to need more defensive healers.I know for a fact that guilds will still role with a defiler and templar in MT group just like they do now. The over all damage you would recieve would remain unchanged. The only real diference would be the one shot wonders.</blockquote>your taking this to the extreme again...</blockquote>Welcome to the bruener problem NERF all other fighters buff shadowknights. Notice how he fails to include the main reasons guilds are starting not to use temps and defilers is the fact they DO NOT have 2 group cures and the main reasons inqusitors are the best healer now is they can cure on the run, while falling in the air, NO POWER, and nearly instantanous. Wardens are still very good and wanted healer and would be better once shatter infections is fixed. Defilers need a second group cure, but thier wards still mean they are a maintank group healer. Templars have some issues but have been having those issues since SF BEFORE the fighter mess.

Gungo

08-30-2011, 04:36 PM

<cite>Buzzing@Butcherblock wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Gungo@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Buzzing@Butcherblock wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Gungo@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote>The idea is for monks paladins and guardians to have some ability to hold agro on multiple npcs so they are not useless in heroic content BUT are not as adequate as shadowknights, zerkers, and bruisers who can easily deal with multiple spawns or multiple encounters of npcs that happen frequently on raids generally at 30-45 sec intervals. I realize the content in current dov has very few AOE encounters designed this way but that doesnt disparage the class. As I believe my class as a bruiser should be at a disadvantage to paladins, guardians, and paladins on single targets as well.Other then paladins needs a reliable stone skin to compete with guardians, monks and paladins. I think those classes are fine. I do not beleive monks, guardians, paladins should get more aoe agro control because that should be their weakness.</blockquote>Given that Holy Ground and Reinforcement are on a better recast, a small increase to the over all ability to hold mobs in an instance id still a good move.However for this all to be true the dps tanks should gain a bit of a boost in dps (especially in aoe). As it stands the dps of all the tanks is fairly close.</blockquote>If any of those classes are having substantial issues dealing with aoe agro in heroic content then yes it needs to be improved. But whatever improvement cannnot trivilize the AOE tanks aoe agro/dps advantage.</blockquote>that's a good point. I only think Monks are having the troube and would only need a small boost, even if it is just recast for ae snap to be on par.</blockquote>Imho they dont have enough issues with aoe agro. Reuse on gear under the NEW mechanics changes has made it possible for monks to take mantis without the agi tree reuse. All brawlers should take mantis now and chi and craneflock. There may come apoint where str line may go away for monks so they can try out int line, but thats another discussion. they also have provoking stance which turns all taunts into positionals including thier group taunt. They also which few do now because there is not a huge issue with aoe agro take new ability in the heroic tree with a very large encounter taunt proc.I beleive the only real advantage right now for a bruiser is thier aoe agro over a monk because of wild beatings AA.

Buzzing

08-30-2011, 04:50 PM

<cite>Gungo@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Buzzing@Butcherblock wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Gungo@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Buzzing@Butcherblock wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Gungo@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote>The idea is for monks paladins and guardians to have some ability to hold agro on multiple npcs so they are not useless in heroic content BUT are not as adequate as shadowknights, zerkers, and bruisers who can easily deal with multiple spawns or multiple encounters of npcs that happen frequently on raids generally at 30-45 sec intervals. I realize the content in current dov has very few AOE encounters designed this way but that doesnt disparage the class. As I believe my class as a bruiser should be at a disadvantage to paladins, guardians, and paladins on single targets as well.Other then paladins needs a reliable stone skin to compete with guardians, monks and paladins. I think those classes are fine. I do not beleive monks, guardians, paladins should get more aoe agro control because that should be their weakness.</blockquote>Given that Holy Ground and Reinforcement are on a better recast, a small increase to the over all ability to hold mobs in an instance id still a good move.However for this all to be true the dps tanks should gain a bit of a boost in dps (especially in aoe). As it stands the dps of all the tanks is fairly close.</blockquote>If any of those classes are having substantial issues dealing with aoe agro in heroic content then yes it needs to be improved. But whatever improvement cannnot trivilize the AOE tanks aoe agro/dps advantage.</blockquote>that's a good point. I only think Monks are having the troube and would only need a small boost, even if it is just recast for ae snap to be on par.</blockquote>Imho they dont have enough issues with aoe agro. Reuse on gear under the NEW mechanics changes has made it possible for monks to take mantis without the agi tree reuse. All brawlers should take mantis now and chi and craneflock. There may come apoint where str line may go away for monks so they can try out int line, but thats another discussion. they also have provoking stance which turns all taunts into positionals including thier group taunt. They also which few do now because there is not a huge issue with aoe agro take new ability in the heroic tree with a very large encounter taunt proc.I beleive the only real advantage right now for a bruiser is thier aoe agro over a monk because of wild beatings AA.</blockquote>I did mention that all the offencive tanks should get a boost to dps especially in aoe, this would help with the edge

Bruener

08-30-2011, 04:59 PM

<cite>Gungo@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Buzzing@Butcherblock wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote>Playing the game of just buff everybody else up to the OP'd level of Brawlers....All Fighters - Increase all DPS currently when Offensive to be more in line with T2 DPS classes. Make all avoidance abilities immune to strikethru and give all Fighters 360 degree avoidance since groups of mobs are made to try and move behind you. Increase all Figher taunt generation to be 5x what it currently is to allow for much better self hate generation....basically allow for more flexibility than having to be locked into MT type groups for transfers to tank anything.not all fighters need a boost to dps, if we maintain the current view of the fighters you would only really buff SK, Bruiser and Zerker. Guard only need a small increase if any. There is no real reason to give all fighters 360 block. It is currently working fine aside from strikethrough. If you want that much hate gain you should be fairly locked into your group set up (Paladins are the exception but it has been our downfall for gaining any sort of help to the class)Crusaders - Add 1 single block type ability on 2 min recast. Something original would be a single Magic reflect if damage is more than 30% of Crusaders health. Remove shield restriction on Knights Stance to actually make 2h close to DW in DPS.Nothing really wrong with this /shrugSKs- Make Bloodletter castable in-combat. Change Mythical buff to generate significant hate as the buff was originally intended.SK get three triggers of Bloodletter because it can not be cast in combat. If you want the Paladins ability to cast the death save in combat it should be only trigger to match as well.Of course than I would want to know why any raid would want to take a Templar/Defiler/Warden over multiple Inq/Mystics. So you might as well follow up this thread with what healers need to be balanced along with what SOE can add to content to make it more difficult to need more defensive healers.I know for a fact that guilds will still role with a defiler and templar in MT group just like they do now. The over all damage you would recieve would remain unchanged. The only real diference would be the one shot wonders.</blockquote>your taking this to the extreme again...</blockquote>Welcome to the bruener problem NERF all other fighters buff shadowknights. Notice how he fails to include the main reasons guilds are starting not to use temps and defilers is the fact they DO NOT have 2 group cures and the main reasons inqusitors are the best healer now is they can cure on the run, while falling in the air, NO POWER, and nearly instantanous. Wardens are still very good and wanted healer and would be better once shatter infections is fixed. Defilers need a second group cure, but thier wards still mean they are a maintank group healer. Templars have some issues but have been having those issues since SF BEFORE the fighter mess.</blockquote>I'm sorry...I don't see anything about nerfs in that post. In fact that post was made as stated what would need some bumps if nerfs aren't going to happen.The reason guilds don't use defilers and temps is because their extra heals aren't needed with Brawlers owning the game. Inq/Mystic bring much more DPS and can handle all the healing that is required.If Brawlers took damage like every other Fighter you would see more Defilers/Temp used.Of course simple people want to completely ignore how messed up the mechanics are with where Brawlers currently are and instead of coming out with the necessary fixes they would rather just bump everybody up. The answer isn't constantly increasing everybody all the time, and you are deluding yourself if you don't think they are going to run some adjustments. Guards Mythical was nerfed after RoK. SKs Grave Sac went thru nerfs, reflect was nerfed, Bloodletter was nerfed. Zerks had Adrenaline nerfed.EDIT: Oh I forgot to add in the "buffing" line to bring things in line with Brawlers to either itemize or AA to make 2h viable for tanking.

Gungo

08-30-2011, 05:15 PM

<cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Gungo@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Buzzing@Butcherblock wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote>Playing the game of just buff everybody else up to the OP'd level of Brawlers....All Fighters - Increase all DPS currently when Offensive to be more in line with T2 DPS classes. Make all avoidance abilities immune to strikethru and give all Fighters 360 degree avoidance since groups of mobs are made to try and move behind you. Increase all Figher taunt generation to be 5x what it currently is to allow for much better self hate generation....basically allow for more flexibility than having to be locked into MT type groups for transfers to tank anything.not all fighters need a boost to dps, if we maintain the current view of the fighters you would only really buff SK, Bruiser and Zerker. Guard only need a small increase if any. There is no real reason to give all fighters 360 block. It is currently working fine aside from strikethrough. If you want that much hate gain you should be fairly locked into your group set up (Paladins are the exception but it has been our downfall for gaining any sort of help to the class)Crusaders - Add 1 single block type ability on 2 min recast. Something original would be a single Magic reflect if damage is more than 30% of Crusaders health. Remove shield restriction on Knights Stance to actually make 2h close to DW in DPS.Nothing really wrong with this /shrugSKs- Make Bloodletter castable in-combat. Change Mythical buff to generate significant hate as the buff was originally intended.SK get three triggers of Bloodletter because it can not be cast in combat. If you want the Paladins ability to cast the death save in combat it should be only trigger to match as well.Of course than I would want to know why any raid would want to take a Templar/Defiler/Warden over multiple Inq/Mystics. So you might as well follow up this thread with what healers need to be balanced along with what SOE can add to content to make it more difficult to need more defensive healers.I know for a fact that guilds will still role with a defiler and templar in MT group just like they do now. The over all damage you would recieve would remain unchanged. The only real diference would be the one shot wonders.</blockquote>your taking this to the extreme again...</blockquote>Welcome to the bruener problem NERF all other fighters buff shadowknights. Notice how he fails to include the main reasons guilds are starting not to use temps and defilers is the fact they DO NOT have 2 group cures and the main reasons inqusitors are the best healer now is they can cure on the run, while falling in the air, NO POWER, and nearly instantanous. Wardens are still very good and wanted healer and would be better once shatter infections is fixed. Defilers need a second group cure, but thier wards still mean they are a maintank group healer. Templars have some issues but have been having those issues since SF BEFORE the fighter mess.</blockquote>I'm sorry...I don't see anything about nerfs in that post. In fact that post was made as stated what would need some bumps if nerfs aren't going to happen.The reason guilds don't use defilers and temps is because their extra heals aren't needed with Brawlers owning the game. Inq/Mystic bring much more DPS and can handle all the healing that is required.If Brawlers took damage like every other Fighter you would see more Defilers/Temp used.Of course simple people want to completely ignore how messed up the mechanics are with where Brawlers currently are and instead of coming out with the necessary fixes they would rather just bump everybody up. The answer isn't constantly increasing everybody all the time, and you are deluding yourself if you don't think they are going to run some adjustments. Guards Mythical was nerfed after RoK. SKs Grave Sac went thru nerfs, reflect was nerfed, Bloodletter was nerfed. Zerks had Adrenaline nerfed.</blockquote>It hs very little to do with the marginal dps those clases bring to the MAIN TANK GROUP and everything to do with the ability to cure. Templars have been having issues since SF. I can link the threads if needed it has LITTLE to do with fighters in DOV.You have been making it a nerf brawler and buff shadowknight issue creating some self deluded role of emergency tank and even when blanka trolls you by suggesting your class take the position of emergenecy tank you cry it off. You kno w nothing of class balance and are completely a self serving fool.

Gungo

08-30-2011, 05:20 PM

<cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote>EDIT: Oh I forgot to add in the "buffing" line to bring things in line with Brawlers to either itemize or AA to make 2h viable for tanking.</blockquote>Your auto atk is ALREADY equivilant to dual wield. Dual wield suffers a 33% delay penalty on EACH WEAPON. As a shadowknight without this penalty you also get KNIGHTS stance you increase your weapon damage by an additional 25%.

Bruener

08-30-2011, 05:27 PM

<cite>Gungo@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote>It hs very little to do with the marginal dps those clases bring to the MAIN TANK GROUP and everything to do with the ability to cure. Templars have been having issues since SF. I can link the threads if needed it has LITTLE to do with fighters in DOV.You have been making it a nerf brawler and buff shadowknight issue creating some self deluded role of emergency tank and even when blanka trolls you by suggesting your class take the position of emergenecy tank you cry it off. You kno w nothing of class balance and are completely a self serving fool.</blockquote>Why is it hard for you to comprehend that adjustments doesn't always mean buffing. If you want to turn Templars into Inq thats fine...personally I think classes should try and maintain as much class identity as possible. And you aer wrong...Templars were awesome in SF. In fact near the end of SF pretty sure we had 3 in a raid due to what they could do to keep a tank up.I guess playing the nerfed encounters you just don't know.

Bruener

08-30-2011, 05:30 PM

<cite>Gungo@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote>EDIT: Oh I forgot to add in the "buffing" line to bring things in line with Brawlers to either itemize or AA to make 2h viable for tanking.</blockquote>Your auto atk is ALREADY equivilant to dual wield. Dual wield suffers a 33% delay penalty on EACH WEAPON. As a shadowknight without this penalty you also get KNIGHTS stance you increase your weapon damage by an additional 25%.</blockquote>30k =/= 70k.Not sure how you do your math but that is just plain incorrect.Funny how you are completely blind to ALL the mechanics favoring your class.

Buzzing

08-30-2011, 05:35 PM

ugg... Knights Stance only applies if you are using a shield. So two handers do not dps the same as duel wield. However it is a huge advantage for tanking with a shield on as we suffer less dps loss. (we as in SK and Pali)

Buzzing

08-30-2011, 05:40 PM

<cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Gungo@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote>It hs very little to do with the marginal dps those clases bring to the MAIN TANK GROUP and everything to do with the ability to cure. Templars have been having issues since SF. I can link the threads if needed it has LITTLE to do with fighters in DOV.You have been making it a nerf brawler and buff shadowknight issue creating some self deluded role of emergency tank and even when blanka trolls you by suggesting your class take the position of emergenecy tank you cry it off. You kno w nothing of class balance and are completely a self serving fool.</blockquote>Why is it hard for you to comprehend that adjustments doesn't always mean buffing. If you want to turn Templars into Inq thats fine...personally I think classes should try and maintain as much class identity as possible. And you aer wrong...Templars were awesome in SF. In fact near the end of SF pretty sure we had 3 in a raid due to what they could do to keep a tank up.I guess playing the nerfed encounters you just don't know.</blockquote>The reason I normally suggest buffing the other classes to equalize is that if you nerfed the ones that are in the lead now, you would also have to correct all the content we face as well. Changing all of the content is more work and requires more testing (given that it has already been tested now)

Bruener

08-30-2011, 06:08 PM

<cite>Buzzing@Butcherblock wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Gungo@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote>It hs very little to do with the marginal dps those clases bring to the MAIN TANK GROUP and everything to do with the ability to cure. Templars have been having issues since SF. I can link the threads if needed it has LITTLE to do with fighters in DOV.You have been making it a nerf brawler and buff shadowknight issue creating some self deluded role of emergency tank and even when blanka trolls you by suggesting your class take the position of emergenecy tank you cry it off. You kno w nothing of class balance and are completely a self serving fool.</blockquote>Why is it hard for you to comprehend that adjustments doesn't always mean buffing. If you want to turn Templars into Inq thats fine...personally I think classes should try and maintain as much class identity as possible. And you aer wrong...Templars were awesome in SF. In fact near the end of SF pretty sure we had 3 in a raid due to what they could do to keep a tank up.I guess playing the nerfed encounters you just don't know.</blockquote>The reason I normally suggest buffing the other classes to equalize is that if you nerfed the ones that are in the lead now, you would also have to correct all the content we face as well. Changing all of the content is more work and requires more testing (given that it has already been tested now)</blockquote>Or it could mean more representation of Defensive healers.

Buzzing

08-30-2011, 06:27 PM

<cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Buzzing@Butcherblock wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Gungo@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote>It hs very little to do with the marginal dps those clases bring to the MAIN TANK GROUP and everything to do with the ability to cure. Templars have been having issues since SF. I can link the threads if needed it has LITTLE to do with fighters in DOV.You have been making it a nerf brawler and buff shadowknight issue creating some self deluded role of emergency tank and even when blanka trolls you by suggesting your class take the position of emergenecy tank you cry it off. You kno w nothing of class balance and are completely a self serving fool.</blockquote>Why is it hard for you to comprehend that adjustments doesn't always mean buffing. If you want to turn Templars into Inq thats fine...personally I think classes should try and maintain as much class identity as possible. And you aer wrong...Templars were awesome in SF. In fact near the end of SF pretty sure we had 3 in a raid due to what they could do to keep a tank up.I guess playing the nerfed encounters you just don't know.</blockquote>The reason I normally suggest buffing the other classes to equalize is that if you nerfed the ones that are in the lead now, you would also have to correct all the content we face as well. Changing all of the content is more work and requires more testing (given that it has already been tested now)</blockquote>Or it could mean more representation of Defensive healers.</blockquote>and more work. I make no claim that it won't help or hurt healers, just that it will take more testing and more time to change.

Gungo

08-30-2011, 06:45 PM

<cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Gungo@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote>EDIT: Oh I forgot to add in the "buffing" line to bring things in line with Brawlers to either itemize or AA to make 2h viable for tanking.</blockquote>Your auto atk is ALREADY equivilant to dual wield. Dual wield suffers a 33% delay penalty on EACH WEAPON. As a shadowknight without this penalty you also get KNIGHTS stance you increase your weapon damage by an additional 25%.</blockquote>30k =/= 70k.Not sure how you do your math but that is just plain incorrect.Funny how you are completely blind to ALL the mechanics favoring your class.</blockquote>DO the math the SAME WEAPONS in both players hand will be at most a difference of 7% auto atk damage. I am not blind i just dont need to make things up like you do constantly to make a point.

Gungo

08-30-2011, 06:47 PM

<cite>Buzzing@Butcherblock wrote:</cite><blockquote>ugg... Knights Stance only applies if you are using a shield. So two handers do not dps the same as duel wield. However it is a huge advantage for tanking with a shield on as we suffer less dps loss. (we as in SK and Pali)</blockquote>I was comparing crusaders sword and board vs dual wield. In which case its at most a 7% difference. In most cases for a crusader its better to go sword and boad then any available 2 hander.

Gungo

08-30-2011, 06:53 PM

<cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Buzzing@Butcherblock wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Gungo@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote>It hs very little to do with the marginal dps those clases bring to the MAIN TANK GROUP and everything to do with the ability to cure. Templars have been having issues since SF. I can link the threads if needed it has LITTLE to do with fighters in DOV.You have been making it a nerf brawler and buff shadowknight issue creating some self deluded role of emergency tank and even when blanka trolls you by suggesting your class take the position of emergenecy tank you cry it off. You kno w nothing of class balance and are completely a self serving fool.</blockquote>Why is it hard for you to comprehend that adjustments doesn't always mean buffing. If you want to turn Templars into Inq thats fine...personally I think classes should try and maintain as much class identity as possible. And you aer wrong...Templars were awesome in SF. In fact near the end of SF pretty sure we had 3 in a raid due to what they could do to keep a tank up.I guess playing the nerfed encounters you just don't know.</blockquote>The reason I normally suggest buffing the other classes to equalize is that if you nerfed the ones that are in the lead now, you would also have to correct all the content we face as well. Changing all of the content is more work and requires more testing (given that it has already been tested now)</blockquote>Or it could mean more representation of Defensive healers.</blockquote>Defensive healers issues have little to do with fighter balance and everything to do with them lacking the the tools needed into todays raid mechanics. Temps and defilers lack the 2 group cures EVERY OTHER HEALER has. Todays content is designed around PREVENTING large amounts of damage or Death prevents and fast curing with some control effects. Putting an inquisitor and mystic in the main tank group has little effect on the raids overall dps and gives maintank groups easier time to deal with curing the maintank group.I guess i need to link you the thread started in SF with templars ALREADY complaining about inqusitors fulfilling thier role. Which again HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH DOV.

Buzzing

08-30-2011, 07:13 PM

<cite>Gungo@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Buzzing@Butcherblock wrote:</cite><blockquote>ugg... Knights Stance only applies if you are using a shield. So two handers do not dps the same as duel wield. However it is a huge advantage for tanking with a shield on as we suffer less dps loss. (we as in SK and Pali)</blockquote>I was comparing crusaders sword and board vs dual wield. In which case its at most a 7% difference. In most cases for a crusader its better to go sword and boad then any available 2 hander.</blockquote>I'm at work but I'll try to remember to snag a couple of numbers. You may be correct, I have played with both my two hander and with a sword/board. I can't duel wield or I would grab those as well. If what you are saying is true then there should be change in my dps when using a two hander or only a 7% change (indicating it would be a total waste to use a two hander)

Boli32

08-30-2011, 08:01 PM

<cite>Buzzing@Butcherblock wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Gungo@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Buzzing@Butcherblock wrote:</cite><blockquote>ugg... Knights Stance only applies if you are using a shield. So two handers do not dps the same as duel wield. However it is a huge advantage for tanking with a shield on as we suffer less dps loss. (we as in SK and Pali)</blockquote>I was comparing crusaders sword and board vs dual wield. In which case its at most a 7% difference. In most cases for a crusader its better to go sword and boad then any available 2 hander.</blockquote>I'm at work but I'll try to remember to snag a couple of numbers. You may be correct, I have played with both my two hander and with a sword/board. I can't duel wield or I would grab those as well. If what you are saying is true then there should be change in my dps when using a two hander or only a 7% change (indicating it would be a total waste to use a two hander)</blockquote>plus you can't use stonewall.

BChizzle

08-30-2011, 10:19 PM

SOE-MOD-02

08-30-2011, 10:59 PM

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Controlor

08-31-2011, 02:42 AM

<cite>Gungo@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Buzzing@Butcherblock wrote:</cite><blockquote>ugg... Knights Stance only applies if you are using a shield. So two handers do not dps the same as duel wield. However it is a huge advantage for tanking with a shield on as we suffer less dps loss. (we as in SK and Pali)</blockquote>I was comparing crusaders sword and board vs dual wield. In which case its at most a 7% difference. In most cases for a crusader its better to go sword and boad then any available 2 hander.</blockquote>Just looking at DoV parse threads on Flames forums.Paladins: 25 - 45k (most are on the 25k side)Guardians: 25 - 40k (most on 30k side... dont know if they are sword / board or duel weild)Shadowknights: 25 - 50k (most on the 40k side)Berzerkers: Dont know they dont really update their DoV parse thread.Monks: 50 - 80k (most on the 70k side)Bruisers: 40 - 80k (most on the 70k side)So yah Knight Stance =/= duel weild dps considering brawlers are able to go defensive and still duel weild. I do not know whether they guardian parses are sword and board or duel weilding as well as they dont state which they are using.

BChizzle

08-31-2011, 03:15 AM

<cite>Controlor wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Gungo@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Buzzing@Butcherblock wrote:</cite><blockquote>ugg... Knights Stance only applies if you are using a shield. So two handers do not dps the same as duel wield. However it is a huge advantage for tanking with a shield on as we suffer less dps loss. (we as in SK and Pali)</blockquote>I was comparing crusaders sword and board vs dual wield. In which case its at most a 7% difference. In most cases for a crusader its better to go sword and boad then any available 2 hander.</blockquote>Just looking at DoV parse threads on Flames forums.Paladins: 25 - 45k (most are on the 25k side)Guardians: 25 - 40k (most on 30k side... dont know if they are sword / board or duel weild)Shadowknights: 25 - 50k (most on the 40k side)Berzerkers: Dont know they dont really update their DoV parse thread.Monks: 50 - 80k (most on the 70k side)Bruisers: 40 - 80k (most on the 70k side)So yah Knight Stance =/= duel weild dps considering brawlers are able to go defensive and still duel weild. I do not know whether they guardian parses are sword and board or duel weilding as well as they dont state which they are using.</blockquote>Not sure where your sorces are but brawlers aren't 80k or even close to it on a single target. On ae fights we do spec for it because go figure we don't have the AE's that other tanks have and have to depend on ae auto but beyond that monks are in the same auto attack range as any other tank. You also don't take into account combat mastery, which would affect any plate tank that was in our group just as much as it would help us.

Boli32

08-31-2011, 05:28 AM

Who CARES about Knight's stance; its a nice bonus when using a shield but its not as powerful as using DWing esp when you consider BOTH weapons can proc AoE attacks, double attacks and flurrys. The twohanders in game simply are not powerful enough to warrent using (esp as half of them don't even have 2 red/white slots).Not only that but it takes 2 clicks to equip from a 2hander to a sword/board vs only one click if you are DWing.- shield first and you have 3s without a weapon- weapon first and not only do you have no shield but you also get no KS bonus.Plus Crane Flock not only gives 100% Aoe Auto but 100% Multi attack as well.

LygerT

08-31-2011, 12:49 PM

<cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote>Playing the game of just buff everybody else up to the OP'd level of Brawlers....All Fighters - Increase all DPS currently when Offensive to be more in line with T2 DPS classes. Make all avoidance abilities immune to strikethru and give all Fighters 360 degree avoidance since groups of mobs are made to try and move behind you. Increase all Figher taunt generation to be 5x what it currently is to allow for much better self hate generation....basically allow for more flexibility than having to be locked into MT type groups for transfers to tank anything.Crusaders - Add 1 single block type ability on 2 min recast. Something original would be a single Magic reflect if damage is more than 30% of Crusaders health. Remove shield restriction on Knights Stance to actually make 2h close to DW in DPS.SKs- Make Bloodletter castable in-combat. Change Mythical buff to generate significant hate as the buff was originally intended.Of course than I would want to know why any raid would want to take a Templar/Defiler/Warden over multiple Inq/Mystics. So you might as well follow up this thread with what healers need to be balanced along with what SOE can add to content to make it more difficult to need more defensive healers.</blockquote>I find it funny as hell you are still asking for more DPS. You will never learn will you?Anyways how is more dps going to help you in your emergency tank role? I like Corys idea of an AE interrupt.</blockquote>*edited to remove forum violation*</blockquote>well i thought it was kind of funny too. TANKS shouldn't do T2 DPS unless you sacrifice ALL survivability in stance switches.360* avoidance? so we should now have immunity to something that has been in game since launch? part of the challenge of playing a tank class is figuring out how to position mobs correctly yet you're telling someone else to L2P, i got a kick out of that.strikethrough was added to create the current balance in tanks we have, perhaps just accept that it will remain this way until next xpac or keep moaning about how leather is OP through this xpac where you had your xpac last year. regardless of what YOU want, SKs weren't going to have their cake and eat it forever, be thankful they did give you a massive boost to be perhaps one of the most desirable well rounded tanks for over a year.

Bruener

08-31-2011, 01:14 PM

<cite>Lyger@Permafrost wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote>Playing the game of just buff everybody else up to the OP'd level of Brawlers....All Fighters - Increase all DPS currently when Offensive to be more in line with T2 DPS classes. Make all avoidance abilities immune to strikethru and give all Fighters 360 degree avoidance since groups of mobs are made to try and move behind you. Increase all Figher taunt generation to be 5x what it currently is to allow for much better self hate generation....basically allow for more flexibility than having to be locked into MT type groups for transfers to tank anything.Crusaders - Add 1 single block type ability on 2 min recast. Something original would be a single Magic reflect if damage is more than 30% of Crusaders health. Remove shield restriction on Knights Stance to actually make 2h close to DW in DPS.SKs- Make Bloodletter castable in-combat. Change Mythical buff to generate significant hate as the buff was originally intended.Of course than I would want to know why any raid would want to take a Templar/Defiler/Warden over multiple Inq/Mystics. So you might as well follow up this thread with what healers need to be balanced along with what SOE can add to content to make it more difficult to need more defensive healers.</blockquote>I find it funny as hell you are still asking for more DPS. You will never learn will you?Anyways how is more dps going to help you in your emergency tank role? I like Corys idea of an AE interrupt.</blockquote>*edited to remove forum violation*</blockquote>well i thought it was kind of funny too. TANKS shouldn't do T2 DPS unless you sacrifice ALL survivability in stance switches.360* avoidance? so we should now have immunity to something that has been in game since launch? part of the challenge of playing a tank class is figuring out how to position mobs correctly yet you're telling someone else to L2P, i got a kick out of that.strikethrough was added to create the current balance in tanks we have, perhaps just accept that it will remain this way until next xpac or keep moaning about how leather is OP through this xpac where you had your xpac last year.</blockquote>Well, I am the one for adjusting Brawlers instead of raising every other Fighter class a ton. What I listed is simply what would need to happen to balance Plate fighters to Brawler level.Brawlers have 360 avoidance...which does help a ton on any type of positioning and big groups of mobs that want to sneak behind you.Brawlers DW or can use a 2h while tanking and not lose their avoidance....which provides significantly more DPS.Brawlers have multiple saves on faster reuses than most of the other tanks. Their avoidance abilities are truly 100% avoidance. And in the case of death saves making Bloodletter castable in combat puts it on par with other Fighter death saves.Fighter DPS taking such a huge nerf this xpac has done nothing but create problems and create even more of a cookie cutter groups. Fighters doing T2 DPS in SF allowed for my diversity in raids and actually feeling like bringing a 4th fighter wasn't a huge loss outside of the couple encounters that might end up needing a 4th....and lets be honest I don't know any encounter in DoV yet that requires 4 Fighters....its why we went from 4 full time in SF to 3 in DoV. All that DoV has done is restrict down Fighter spots and lower down healer spots to grab as many T1 DPS spots as possible because of how huge of a DPS gap they have over everybody else. Because of that gap now ALL fighters need as close to a perfect hate set up as possible to be able to hold mobs which really lowered the flexibility of raid set ups. Fighters SHOULD not HAVE to completely rely on transfers and hate buffs from other classes to even try to do their job. Those transfers and buffs should be a bonus that that class offers...not a complete necessity.SF was balanced. TSO saw SKs awesome. SF saw some nerfs to SKs along with some buffs to other Fighters and saw a huge mix of ALL fighter types doing their job and clearing content. DoV is stupid broken with you either get Brawlers or you don't progress until the mobs go through nerfs. Unlike TSO with SKs Brawlers are both the most Offensive fighter and the most Defensive fighter rolled into one and no other xpac EVER has ever seen a Fighter with such an advantage in progression. Its not like I am the only one that notices this....go check with the top guilds pushing progression and what they are seeing for Fighter mechanics. So you either buff up every fighter to that level and basically guarantee a set up of 4 INQ in raid or you fix what is broken and start bringig back Templars/Defilers/Wardens more for what they can do to keep a tank alive.Most of you guys have no concept on balance at all and probably don't have any idea how the mechanics are working in progression. Probably the same people that didn't understand the mitigation nerf, or why would SOE ever nerf Adrenaline.EDIT: To point out another bad mechanic that is unbalanced the amount of uncontested block Brawlers receive compared to Plate tanks for the same +block chance amount. Brawlers cap I think at 179, while Plate tanks are like 239. It probably has to do with no increase at all on shields to allow block chance to give higher amounts.

LygerT

08-31-2011, 02:40 PM

i don't know why anyone bothers.this is the brawler expansion, you're trying to nerf them but you took it upon yourself to do the exact opposite not only a short while ago. guards still do the job with brawlers and most any other tank can still oftank. more shoehorned? yes, but you still need other tanks.the term "hipocrite" is in the dictionary.i don't remember the last raid encounter that required 4 tanks aside from the sisters in SoH which only required 3 and you could still easily work around that. what you're expecting is unrealistic. what i advocate is realistic, fighter consolidation with more duties for 3 tanks, hopefully if balanced decently you would see one of each archetype in a raid setup without feeling like you're dragging a sub-par fighter DPS around. this can easily be done by adding more ADDs and the current memwiping mechanic for main tanks switching in and out like Xebnok, which was still easily doable by 2 experienced tanks as progression mob as it wasn't too often. there was also that second mob in SoH that you needed 2 fighters for, but that and the sisters are stupid obvious mechanics to make the necessity of more fighters in raid to do the job and feel like they were doing something.sure in an ideal world i'd prefer to see every tank viable for a main tank role, consolidation would make that more realistic. but you still have 1-2 more classes that need that spotlight before everyone has had their turn. i'm not even referring to SK/zerks except as a possibility as the zerk being the mid line class from which i tend to judge all others which has been average in most areas for a long while so i don't expect much for it. paladins have been stepped on lately, is to whom i'm referring to.

Bruener

08-31-2011, 03:11 PM

<cite>Lyger@Permafrost wrote:</cite><blockquote>i don't know why anyone bothers.this is the brawler expansion, you're trying to nerf them but you took it upon yourself to do the exact opposite not only a short while ago. guards still do the job and most any other tank can still oftank.the term "hipocrite" is in the dictionary.i don't remember the last raid encounter that required 4 tanks aside from the sisters in SoH which only required 3 and you could still easily work around that. what you're expecting is unrealistic. what i advocate is realistic, fighter consolidation with more duties for 3 tanks, hopefully if balanced decently you would see one of each archetype in a raid setup without feeling like you're dragging a sub-par fighter DPS around. this can easily be done by adding more ADDs and the current memwiping mechanic for main tanks switching in and out like Xebnok, which was still easily doable by 2 experienced tanks as progression mob as it wasn't too often.</blockquote>I have a way to do it....and its exactly what SF was. You make Fighter DPS good. You close the huge gap that T1 DPS now has. You make CC important by allowing it to make encounters easier by other tanks moving and positioning mobs.4RT and all of UD3 are some great examples of how using 4 Fighters made things easier and because of where Fighter DPS was in relation to raid it was definitely worth it.You don't need gimmicks and all that BS. Fighters need exactly what every other class has as a role in raids along with their primary, excepting healers which there is never a shortage of need for.Somebody made a list earlier of how scouts and mages work. Despite their primary rolls differing they still have the expectation of providing good DPS.Fighters are stuffed into a single role more than any other class and it is a roll that has very limited spots needed. Sorry if as a great player a Fighter could make a mediocre T1 DPS class look bad. Thats how it should be. Not a mediocre DPS class blowing up a fully offensive Fighter just because of an inflation on DPS stats they received.Hypocrit? How is that? By defending SKs in SF when stuff was actually balanced between fighters? By trying to keep whiners from crying constantly to nerf SKs trying to avoid the mess that DoV rolled out for my class? Yeah...guilty for trying to keep things balanced. Odd that I was also a big pusher for Guardian changes in a good direction (not just added DPS)...again for balance. I know you are mad because balance also meant nerfing Adrenaline because of how ridiculous of an ability it was. Imagine DoV with Zerks 50% damage reduction for 50% of the time again.....they would crush Brawlers and Guards in survivability. The change to Adrenaline is not something I would have recommended though....I just thought the reuse on it was way too short for how long the duration was. I also agreed with the nerf to Grave Sac on SKs after TSO because of how ridiculous it could lock AE mobs to you, and was good with a nerf to LC because of how much damage it could push back (unfortunately like Adrenaline nerf they went too far and killed the defensive use of it too). I was fine with the heal crit nerf, although it was a joke and completely misplaced since it was gear procs doing the majority of healing.Here is the concern about how things are with Brawlers right now and why if mechanics don't change it will stay that way for a long time. DoV is going to last another couple years. There is no level cap raise coming. They are not putting in a new AA tree for the "x-pac". DoV unlike past xpacs is planned to last 3x the length. The xpac is right around the corner...and all they are doing is adding AAs that can be put in current trees (btw, which fighter do you think would take the most advantage of being able to dump another 50 AAs in?). There is no xpac coming out where they can give some fighters a boost through AAs/new spells while giving the other Fighters very little.

Buzzing

08-31-2011, 03:55 PM

<cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote>I have a way to do it....and its exactly what SF was. You make Fighter DPS good. You close the huge gap that T1 DPS now has. You make CC important by allowing it to make encounters easier by other tanks moving and positioning mobs.4RT and all of UD3 are some great examples of how using 4 Fighters made things easier and because of where Fighter DPS was in relation to raid it was definitely worth it.You don't need gimmicks and all that BS. Fighters need exactly what every other class has as a role in raids along with their primary, excepting healers which there is never a shortage of need for.Somebody made a list earlier of how scouts and mages work. Despite their primary rolls differing they still have the expectation of providing good DPS.Fighters are stuffed into a single role more than any other class and it is a roll that has very limited spots needed. Sorry if as a great player a Fighter could make a mediocre T1 DPS class look bad. Thats how it should be. Not a mediocre DPS class blowing up a fully offensive Fighter just because of an inflation on DPS stats they received.Hypocrit? How is that? By defending SKs in SF when stuff was actually balanced between fighters? By trying to keep whiners from crying constantly to nerf SKs trying to avoid the mess that DoV rolled out for my class? Yeah...guilty for trying to keep things balanced. Odd that I was also a big pusher for Guardian changes in a good direction (not just added DPS)...again for balance. I know you are mad because balance also meant nerfing Adrenaline because of how ridiculous of an ability it was. Imagine DoV with Zerks 50% damage reduction for 50% of the time again.....they would crush Brawlers and Guards in survivability. The change to Adrenaline is not something I would have recommended though....I just thought the reuse on it was way too short for how long the duration was. I also agreed with the nerf to Grave Sac on SKs after TSO because of how ridiculous it could lock AE mobs to you, and was good with a nerf to LC because of how much damage it could push back (unfortunately like Adrenaline nerf they went too far and killed the defensive use of it too). I was fine with the heal crit nerf, although it was a joke and completely misplaced since it was gear procs doing the majority of healing.Here is the concern about how things are with Brawlers right now and why if mechanics don't change it will stay that way for a long time. DoV is going to last another couple years. There is no level cap raise coming. They are not putting in a new AA tree for the "x-pac". DoV unlike past xpacs is planned to last 3x the length. The xpac is right around the corner...and all they are doing is adding AAs that can be put in current trees (btw, which fighter do you think would take the most advantage of being able to dump another 50 AAs in?). There is no xpac coming out where they can give some fighters a boost through AAs/new spells while giving the other Fighters very little.</blockquote>It might suprise you, but I actually agree with most all of your post.I do not feel nerfing Brawlers would actaully help anything unless you changed the current way that raid mobs are working in todays raid content. If all we did was nerf those abilities then no one could kill the content and that isn't a good solution either. If you changed how the content worked alltogether almost no one would need a change to there class (at least only a couple would and not much of a change at that) If the trend was to not kill the tanks every 45 seconds none of it would be an issue (not even the abilities that brawlers currently have)It was me that posted the breakdown of class roles and part of the reson for it (though I didn't explain it before) is that class balance is harsh when you consider raid spots.There is a hug imbalance in this all together.A typical raid will run 3 fighters 8 healers 4 bards and 4 chanters. That leaves only 5 slots for a dps class to get inNow there are 8 classes that are considered a high dps class (Wizard, Warlock, Conjurer, Necromancer, Assassin, Ranger, Brigand, Swashbuckler)That means that 8 classes are fighting for 5 raid spots as apposed to 6 fighters fighting for 3. The % is weighted in favor of the DPS in that model but if you switch and take 4 fighters it would simply reverse the order.If you consider all of this the entire raid set up is at an inbalance unless you took one of every single class.Edit - I'm not at all aposed to boosting dps of fighters to make it a real choice between a fighter or a DPS, but there is a ton more to the balance then just that.

LygerT

08-31-2011, 09:09 PM

<cite>Buzzing@Butcherblock wrote:</cite><blockquote>That means that 8 classes are fighting for 5 raid spots as apposed to 6 fighters fighting for 3. The % is weighted in favor of the DPS in that model but if you switch and take 4 fighters it would simply reverse the order.</blockquote>as i mention just about everywhere lately, tank class consolidation would drop the figure to 3 fighter classes which strangely fits exactly into your average setup.too bad i don't think sony would go for it and many people would moan about consolidation, however if you take the strengths from both classes to be consolidated into 1 subclass you would be better off than each class is now.

BChizzle

08-31-2011, 09:12 PM

Why would brawlers need nerfing they are fullfilling their MT and OT role, I don't think SK's need nerfing because they fill their emergency tank role so well.

circusgirl

08-31-2011, 09:54 PM

Does anyone else find it funny that we simultaneously are being told that templers and defilers are useless because mobs don't hit hard enough for them to be needed and that plate tanks are not viable because mobs hit too hard?

Silzin

08-31-2011, 10:08 PM

Bruener

08-31-2011, 10:20 PM

Controlor

09-01-2011, 01:53 AM

<cite>Vinka@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>Does anyone else find it funny that we simultaneously are being told that templers and defilers are useless because mobs don't hit hard enough for them to be needed and that plate tanks are not viable because mobs hit too hard?</blockquote>There are other issues with those healers as already stated. Their utility / dps and cures are big things. Their utility is more for sustained damage and not for 1 shotting mobs. If the sustained damage of all raid mobs were increased and the 1 shotting damage drastically reduced you would see a need for more fighters and less of an issue with the stoneskin/DI imbalance in fighters. As mentioned before the mobs in TSO and lesser extent SF the mobs were not designed around one shotting the tank but for doing heavy constant damage. This has changed where they do less constant damage and either 1 shots or aoes that the cure needs to be precasted or else it will wipe you.

BChizzle

09-01-2011, 01:59 AM

Boli32

09-01-2011, 05:36 AM

Sustained damage is very different to spike damage.Lets sa potential heal output:Inquisitor: 8k hpsTemplar: 12k hpsMystic: 10k hpsDefiler: 12k hpsFor basic mobs autoattack lets say a plate tank takes less damage "in general" so :Plate tank needs 12k hps to stay alive.Brawler Tank needs 15k hps to stay alive.In short you don't *need* defiler/templar and mystic/inquisitor work.BUT every 45s an AE or a Frontal will hit whoever is tanking the mob and kill them:- 90% of the time a guard or a Brawler can put up an effect which reduces that damage to zero or low enough to survive it.- 20% of the time a crusader or a zerker can do the sameSolution: run Defiler/templar/Warden in MT group for all defensive triggers and deathsaves bringing up the chance a crusader or a zerker can do the same to 80% of the time.HOWEVER not only do you have to replace a DPS in the raid to do it, but the groups overall DPS will be lower in general and there is no inquisitory mythical cliky to avoid status effect AoEs. Whilst there is scantury and Shatter infections the recast on these is much higher.In short you need to rely on multiple healers and the tank and others timing their deathsaves and stoneskins perfectly; and if any sort of additional spike damage occurs or someone makes a mistake BAMN tank dead.Plus with strikethrough immunity on brawler def stance and 30% DR proc to reduce potential double attacks/flurries from the mob - in general it is PLATE tanks who die from spike damage not leather.It is the raiding equivilent of a "Top Gear Race"; whlist the brawlers and monks can cruise there in their spanky sports car issues are easily overcome as the transport network is designed for them. Crusaders and Zerkers have to deal with the timetables of public transport and going from train > bus > taxi > Metro > plane > boat > walking.Sure its a close race in the end - but the car always wins and they have a much easier - and relaxing time over it.

BChizzle

09-01-2011, 05:46 AM

<cite>Boli@Splitpaw wrote:</cite><blockquote>Sustained damage is very different to spike damage.Lets sa potential heal output:Inquisitor: 8k hpsTemplar: 12k hpsMystic: 10k hpsDefiler: 12k hpsFor basic mobs autoattack lets say a plate tank takes less damage "in general" so :Plate tank needs 12k hps to stay alive.Brawler Tank needs 15k hps to stay alive.In short you don't *need* defiler/templar and mystic/inquisitor work.BUT every 45s an AE or a Frontal will hit whoever is tanking the mob and kill them:- 90% of the time a guard or a Brawler can put up an effect which reduces that damage to zero or low enough to survive it.- 20% of the time a crusader or a zerker can do the sameSolution: run Defiler/templar/Warden in MT group for all defensive triggers and deathsaves bringing up the chance a crusader or a zerker can do the same to 80% of the time.HOWEVER not only do you have to replace a DPS in the raid to do it, but the groups overall DPS will be lower in general and there is no inquisitory mythical cliky to avoid status effect AoEs. Whilst there is scantury and Shatter infections the recast on these is much higher.In short you need to rely on multiple healers and the tank and others timing their deathsaves and stoneskins perfectly; and if any sort of additional spike damage occurs or someone makes a mistake BAMN tank dead.Plus with strikethrough immunity on brawler def stance and 30% DR proc to reduce potential double attacks/flurries from the mob - in general it is PLATE tanks who die from spike damage not leather.It is the raiding equivilent of a "Top Gear Race"; whlist the brawlers and monks can cruise there in their spanky sports car issues are easily overcome as the transport network is designed for them. Crusaders and Zerkers have to deal with the timetables of public transport and going from train > bus > taxi > Metro > plane > boat > walking.Sure its a close race in the end - but the car always wins and they have a much easier - and relaxing time over it.</blockquote>Yet plates are again asking for more dps thereby completely destroying your argument, plates don't use the tools handed to them and raids have decided to use lesser healers for more utility.

Boli32

09-01-2011, 06:04 AM

<cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite><blockquote>Yet plates are again asking for more dps thereby completely destroying your argument, plates don't use the tools handed to them and raids have decided to use lesser healers for more utility.</blockquote>You mean like ability to dual weild whilst tanking?I am fully in <a href="http://beetny.com/eq2aa/?GU61;f02s11@31@348a144a@148a1688@17112j4@15@2455@ 13555554@14@155@1111@25354121n@35@15@45@251@255@15 144@2551131e@2a@2aa@18a@11" target="_blank">MT Spec</a> but the survibility difference from my OT spec is practically zero... oh except I turn every encoutner into a power drain fight and if it is a power drain fight... well my survibility remains the same.Sure as a pally if I "take and survive" damage I can deal with the spikes but I cannot heal if I'm dead and asking for a rez.I have *never* asked for more DPS, only the ability to survive any agro I can gather which is what *any* tanks want.The only time I have asked for DPS for tanks was that bringing additional tanks should not be a detriment to the raid force. In TSF a tank did decent DPS (not as good as real DPS) but the difference between DPS and tanks right now is quite franky stupid.

BChizzle

09-01-2011, 06:34 AM

<cite>Boli@Splitpaw wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite><blockquote>Yet plates are again asking for more dps thereby completely destroying your argument, plates don't use the tools handed to them and raids have decided to use lesser healers for more utility.</blockquote>You mean like ability to dual weild whilst tanking?I am fully in <a href="http://beetny.com/eq2aa/?GU61;f02s11@31@348a144a@148a1688@17112j4@15@2455@ 13555554@14@155@1111@25354121n@35@15@45@251@255@15 144@2551131e@2a@2aa@18a@11" target="_blank">MT Spec</a> but the survibility difference from my OT spec is practically zero... oh except I turn every encoutner into a power drain fight and if it is a power drain fight... well my survibility remains the same.Sure as a pally if I "take and survive" damage I can deal with the spikes but I cannot heal if I'm dead and asking for a rez.I have *never* asked for more DPS, only the ability to survive any agro I can gather which is what *any* tanks want.The only time I have asked for DPS for tanks was that bringing additional tanks should not be a detriment to the raid force. In TSF a tank did decent DPS (not as good as real DPS) but the difference between DPS and tanks right now is quite franky stupid.</blockquote>This whole duel wield while tanking is silly, a brawlers shield comes from their defensive stance no brawler is tanking without their defensive stance on AKA their shield. The amount lost for being forced to be in defensive stance to tank is 8 crit bonus, 53% attack speed, and 104 weapon skills which is absolutely comparable to going sword and board with knight stance.

Boli32

09-01-2011, 07:05 AM

<cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Boli@Splitpaw wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite><blockquote>Yet plates are again asking for more dps thereby completely destroying your argument, plates don't use the tools handed to them and raids have decided to use lesser healers for more utility.</blockquote>You mean like ability to dual weild whilst tanking?I am fully in <a href="http://beetny.com/eq2aa/?GU61;f02s11@31@348a144a@148a1688@17112j4@15@2455@ 13555554@14@155@1111@25354121n@35@15@45@251@255@15 144@2551131e@2a@2aa@18a@11" target="_blank">MT Spec</a> but the survibility difference from my OT spec is practically zero... oh except I turn every encoutner into a power drain fight and if it is a power drain fight... well my survibility remains the same.Sure as a pally if I "take and survive" damage I can deal with the spikes but I cannot heal if I'm dead and asking for a rez.I have *never* asked for more DPS, only the ability to survive any agro I can gather which is what *any* tanks want.The only time I have asked for DPS for tanks was that bringing additional tanks should not be a detriment to the raid force. In TSF a tank did decent DPS (not as good as real DPS) but the difference between DPS and tanks right now is quite franky stupid.</blockquote>This whole duel wield while tanking is silly, a brawlers shield comes from their defensive stance no brawler is tanking without their defensive stance on AKA their shield. The amount lost for being forced to be in defensive stance to tank is 8 crit bonus, 53% attack speed, and 104 weapon skills which is absolutely comparable to going sword and board with knight stance.</blockquote>When I tank HM named - unless there is a percentage based DT on me I use defensive stance for 2k extra health and slight increase to mitigation... so I'm loosing 100+ melee skills, 200 strength and my hit rate is pathetic.Why?... well it certainly doesn't help with agro I just hope against all hope the next AoE doesn't kill me.

Bruener

09-01-2011, 09:58 AM

Blanka you are way off base assuming that Plate tanks aren't spec'ing fully defensive. The problem is there is no spec or adornments that are going to negate the one shots for Crusaders/Zerks.As far as your big "loss" having to go defensive are you trying to say that 8% crit bonus is the same type of loss as going to 1h+board? The attack speed and wep skill doesn't even make a difference based on where it is in a raid anyway.Just face it, you play the most OP'd tank for progression in relation to other tanks that the game has ever seen. You can blame it on mechanics, you can blame it on other Fighters lacking enough tools, and/or you can blame it on Brawlers having too many tools. The point is the advantage is big and really trying to pretend like it doesn't exist is ridiculous when you can see and hear about how much of a difference it makes in progression.And stop twisting what I posted about ALL fighters getting all around more DPS. As Boli pointed out that is for better diversification in raid purposes in general. It is not just Plate tanks asking for more DPS. It is about what is better for the game and more enjoyable while also allowing for more diversity in raid set ups.Do you really not understand the difference items like these can make in mechanics?

BChizzle

09-01-2011, 10:07 AM

Silzin

09-01-2011, 10:34 AM

<cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote>Blanka you are way off base assuming that Plate tanks aren't spec'ing fully defensive. The problem is there is no spec or adornments that are going to negate the one shots for Crusaders/Zerks.As far as your big "loss" having to go defensive are you trying to say that 8% crit bonus is the same type of loss as going to 1h+board? The attack speed and wep skill doesn't even make a difference based on where it is in a raid anyway.Just face it, you play the most OP'd tank for progression in relation to other tanks that the game has ever seen. You can blame it on mechanics, you can blame it on other Fighters lacking enough tools, and/or you can blame it on Brawlers having too many tools. The point is the advantage is big and really trying to pretend like it doesn't exist is ridiculous when you can see and hear about how much of a difference it makes in progression.And stop twisting what I posted about ALL fighters getting all around more DPS. As Boli pointed out that is for better diversification in raid purposes in general. It is not just Plate tanks asking for more DPS. It is about what is better for the game and more enjoyable while also allowing for more diversity in raid set ups.Do you really not understand the difference items like these can make in mechanics?</blockquote>Although many will dispute it, for a very long time brawlers where is a very similar position to what you are saying. We had to out gear content in order to be able to tank it and not just get one shotted by auto attaches. I know that the mob have brutal AoE’s in this xpac instead of nasty auto attaches. But instead of changing brawlers witch are know viable in all content try to get your self a few more tools. Also the mobs PROBABLY need nurfed again…. Increasing the auto attach dmg of the mobs will also favor plat tanks again. There really is not that much needed to let plat tanks shine in the tanking realm again. I also think that the Div’s know that Paly’s need some more help being the 3rd Defensive tank. They have basically said that they are going to be taking a nether swipe at classes after the GU61 stuff settles down. The trouby I know is on the chopping block, the paly is probably on the shortlist also.

Boli32

09-01-2011, 10:42 AM

<cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote>Blanka you are way off base assuming that Plate tanks aren't spec'ing fully defensive. The problem is there is no spec or adornments that are going to negate the one shots for Crusaders/Zerks.As far as your big "loss" having to go defensive are you trying to say that 8% crit bonus is the same type of loss as going to 1h+board? The attack speed and wep skill doesn't even make a difference based on where it is in a raid anyway.Just face it, you play the most OP'd tank for progression in relation to other tanks that the game has ever seen. You can blame it on mechanics, you can blame it on other Fighters lacking enough tools, and/or you can blame it on Brawlers having too many tools. The point is the advantage is big and really trying to pretend like it doesn't exist is ridiculous when you can see and hear about how much of a difference it makes in progression.And stop twisting what I posted about ALL fighters getting all around more DPS. As Boli pointed out that is for better diversification in raid purposes in general. It is not just Plate tanks asking for more DPS. It is about what is better for the game and more enjoyable while also allowing for more diversity in raid set ups.Do you really not understand the difference items like these can make in mechanics?</blockquote>You keep asking for more dps, monks, bruisers and guardians arent a better choice than you because of dps, do you understand it?</blockquote>tbh increases in fighter DPS are not the issue... although they will help fighters who are not tanking get onto raids as more than pity invites.And yes... you have nailed the issue dead on: "monks, bruisers and guardians *are* a better choice than you".Why... well that much is obvious as crusaders and zerkers CANNOT TANK. as tanking denotes both suriving and holding agro. and when you have a choice that even on the best of days will die every few min vs a tank which does not it doesn't take a rocket scientist to choose between them.This is half game mechanics and half skill set both of which work in brawlers favour currently - before TSF brawlers *did* have issues with surviving agro and tanking for extended periods;but they *did* have a nice selection of snaps and damage immunities to compensate. So over the next couple of expansions you have steadily been given more tools to survive agro to such an extent that on a mob by mob basis a brawler will generally take as much damage as say a paladin or a beserker and less than a guardian.Well you would say that's fair and just deal with it... BUT whilst you have grown in ability to tank on a sustained basis you have also kept your temp immunities and anti spike damage capabilities. so when Dov came along and the harder mobs revolved around AoEs or Frontals which would kill the tank UNLESS he used such an ability you started to exceel.Aside from the guardian no other plate tank has the ability to deal with damage and death dealing spikes EXCEPT brawlers.I have never begrudged a brawlers desire to tank, (although I personally think that a role for a brawler tank should be more tank support than full tanking; you are afterall wearing "Borat-underwear"); at the end of the day you like the rest of us just want a place in a raid and a role you can call your own.So please PLEASE stop griping on about stuff saying "things are just fine" and "they are balanced" and all the rest of the rubbish you have been coming out and look at the bigger picture:ALL tanks should have *both* sustained damage prevention AND spike damage preventionAnything less is simply not acceptable to anyone - the same could be said for agro as well "sustained agro and spike(snap) agro" we all want the same tools.Tell you what I'll give you an ability which will proc a heavy Hate Over Time on you for every *unsuccessful* attack on you; and you give me a short reuse stoneskin ability and a single target rescue on a (resonable) cast time..... or we can just drop the agro stuff and balance the tanks on surviving HM content first....

Bruener

09-01-2011, 11:17 AM

LygerT

09-01-2011, 11:43 AM

<cite>Boli@Splitpaw wrote:</cite><blockquote>I have never begrudged a brawlers desire to tank, (although I personally think that a role for a brawler tank should be more tank support than full tanking; you are afterall wearing "Borat-underwear"); at the end of the day you like the rest of us just want a place in a raid and a role you can call your own.</blockquote>it's always bothered me a bit, leather tanks should have the least survivability but the highest DPS but can still manage OT duties and temporary emergency duties as well as tank heroic content easily.i view brawlers very similar to how i see my own class, zerk, which is a sacrifice to destroy mobs quicker in exchange for taking more damage.it's just counter intuitive that we're seeing them as one of the best epic tanks now, at character creation there is a choice to be made and that choice doesn't include "being the best at every aspect of being a tank" yet i see plenty of people asking for just that each expansion, and we always see one or two classes get almost exactly that and it's a load of sh^t IMO.

Buzzing

09-01-2011, 12:36 PM

<cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite><blockquote>You keep asking for more dps, monks, bruisers and guardians arent a better choice than you because of dps, do you understand it?</blockquote>I think you missed it actually, he said ALL tanks should recieve a boost in dps, not just plate. He is asking that there be a real choice between bringing another tank and bringing another DPS.

Boli32

09-01-2011, 12:43 PM

Real dps should do more dps... but when a tank is doing only around 20-30% of what can be pushed out by "real DPS" the disparity is too much.*all* tanks should be a lot closer to bards and enchanters than inquisitors and furys.

LygerT

09-01-2011, 12:49 PM

part of that issue is the drastic push in DPS over the last 2 expansions and the mechanics behind them. it wasn't long ago that you had top tier DPS pushing 30k, now it is 300k. good luck for tanks keeping up with that, it's rather sad i also see many healers pushing as much DPS in these PQs as some of the better geared tanks are(~60k DPS, i've seen more than a handful of healers actually tank the RW and hold aggro like a champ, while i'm sure with ideal groups most tanks in real raids are doing well over 100k now but that is still only 1/3 of T1).starting to feel like aeralik's vision of tanks not DPSing at all seems to be coming true.

Buzzing

09-01-2011, 01:16 PM

<cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote>The raising ALL FIGHTER DPS is a seperate issue for healthier raiding mechanics for ALL FIGHTERS.</blockquote>As most everyone agrees with this I will add it to the main post as an over all change for the better in terms of fighters.

Gungo

09-01-2011, 02:31 PM

<cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote>Blanka you are way off base assuming that Plate tanks aren't spec'ing fully defensive. The problem is there is no spec or adornments that are going to negate the one shots for Crusaders/Zerks.As far as your big "loss" having to go defensive are you trying to say that 8% crit bonus is the same type of loss as going to 1h+board? The attack speed and wep skill doesn't even make a difference based on where it is in a raid anyway.Just face it, you play the most OP'd tank for progression in relation to other tanks that the game has ever seen. You can blame it on mechanics, you can blame it on other Fighters lacking enough tools, and/or you can blame it on Brawlers having too many tools. The point is the advantage is big and really trying to pretend like it doesn't exist is ridiculous when you can see and hear about how much of a difference it makes in progression.And stop twisting what I posted about ALL fighters getting all around more DPS. As Boli pointed out that is for better diversification in raid purposes in general. It is not just Plate tanks asking for more DPS. It is about what is better for the game and more enjoyable while also allowing for more diversity in raid set ups.Do you really not understand the difference items like these can make in mechanics?</blockquote>Shadowknights, zerkers, and bruisers shouldnt be able to take the one shots as well as guardians monks and paladins.You keep asking for more dps for those classes fine but you should NOT get more defensive then what you have on top of asking for increased dps.Other then that Paladins need a reliable stone skin to compete with guards and monks. Or are we going back to the bruener game of you asking for EVERYTHING for shadowknights again?

Gungo

09-01-2011, 02:34 PM

<cite>Buzzing@Butcherblock wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite><blockquote>You keep asking for more dps, monks, bruisers and guardians arent a better choice than you because of dps, do you understand it?</blockquote>I think you missed it actually, he said ALL tanks should recieve a boost in dps, not just plate. He is asking that there be a real choice between bringing another tank and bringing another DPS.</blockquote>I dont agree nor do i think it was balanced in TSO at ALL with the amount of dps some fighters *COUGH* SHADOWKNIGHT*COUGH* were putting out on raid wides. Shadowknights at the time w a busted legionaries were outdpsing rogues/summoners on raid wides and on select few fights pushing tier 1 classes.While I do think fighters should have a noticeable dps increase in offensive stance and a noticeable defensive gain in defensive stance I do not beleive a fighter should outdps even a troubador. The only people really advoating such outragious claims as to outdps scouts is the players who want an overpowered DO EVERYTHING class. Fighters already heal, tank, some crowd control/utility and now they want to dps like a scout. It is the only class with thier hands in everyone cookie jar. ALL fighter's relation to dps should be between troubador, inqusitor, mystic, fury and below brigands. In other words fighters should NOT be tier 2 dps like bruener wants again but a clear tier 3 dps class. We are not far off from that mark now.

Buzzing

09-01-2011, 03:15 PM

<cite>Gungo@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote>We are not far off from that mark now.</blockquote>The "far off part" is all I would be asking for <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> I in no way feel I need my dps to be higher then Brig Swash. However I do feel there should be a real consideration between haveing another tank in raid that can assist if one of your primary go down or to take another DPS that will kill the content a bit faster.Not a lot is needed for a gain for this to be the case, and it would be across the board.

BChizzle

09-01-2011, 06:41 PM

<cite>Gungo@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote>Blanka you are way off base assuming that Plate tanks aren't spec'ing fully defensive. The problem is there is no spec or adornments that are going to negate the one shots for Crusaders/Zerks.As far as your big "loss" having to go defensive are you trying to say that 8% crit bonus is the same type of loss as going to 1h+board? The attack speed and wep skill doesn't even make a difference based on where it is in a raid anyway.Just face it, you play the most OP'd tank for progression in relation to other tanks that the game has ever seen. You can blame it on mechanics, you can blame it on other Fighters lacking enough tools, and/or you can blame it on Brawlers having too many tools. The point is the advantage is big and really trying to pretend like it doesn't exist is ridiculous when you can see and hear about how much of a difference it makes in progression.And stop twisting what I posted about ALL fighters getting all around more DPS. As Boli pointed out that is for better diversification in raid purposes in general. It is not just Plate tanks asking for more DPS. It is about what is better for the game and more enjoyable while also allowing for more diversity in raid set ups.Do you really not understand the difference items like these can make in mechanics?</blockquote>Shadowknights, zerkers, and bruisers shouldnt be able to take the one shots as well as guardians monks and paladins.You keep asking for more dps for those classes fine but you should NOT get more defensive then what you have on top of asking for increased dps.Other then that Paladins need a reliable stone skin to compete with guards and monks. Or are we going back to the bruener game of you asking for EVERYTHING for shadowknights again?</blockquote>This...I play a monk I should have better survivability than an SK on a single target hard hitting mob. As should a guard and a paly.

Bruener

09-01-2011, 08:20 PM

<cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Gungo@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote>Blanka you are way off base assuming that Plate tanks aren't spec'ing fully defensive. The problem is there is no spec or adornments that are going to negate the one shots for Crusaders/Zerks.As far as your big "loss" having to go defensive are you trying to say that 8% crit bonus is the same type of loss as going to 1h+board? The attack speed and wep skill doesn't even make a difference based on where it is in a raid anyway.Just face it, you play the most OP'd tank for progression in relation to other tanks that the game has ever seen. You can blame it on mechanics, you can blame it on other Fighters lacking enough tools, and/or you can blame it on Brawlers having too many tools. The point is the advantage is big and really trying to pretend like it doesn't exist is ridiculous when you can see and hear about how much of a difference it makes in progression.And stop twisting what I posted about ALL fighters getting all around more DPS. As Boli pointed out that is for better diversification in raid purposes in general. It is not just Plate tanks asking for more DPS. It is about what is better for the game and more enjoyable while also allowing for more diversity in raid set ups.Do you really not understand the difference items like these can make in mechanics?</blockquote>Shadowknights, zerkers, and bruisers shouldnt be able to take the one shots as well as guardians monks and paladins.You keep asking for more dps for those classes fine but you should NOT get more defensive then what you have on top of asking for increased dps.Other then that Paladins need a reliable stone skin to compete with guards and monks. Or are we going back to the bruener game of you asking for EVERYTHING for shadowknights again?</blockquote>This...I play a monk I should have better survivability than an SK on a single target hard hitting mob. As should a guard and a paly.</blockquote>Naw, you should go back to your emergency/CC role SOE gave you the tools for in the first place where Leathers belong.Paladins/Guards - MTSK/Zerk - OT.

BChizzle

09-01-2011, 08:25 PM

<cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Gungo@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote>Blanka you are way off base assuming that Plate tanks aren't spec'ing fully defensive. The problem is there is no spec or adornments that are going to negate the one shots for Crusaders/Zerks.As far as your big "loss" having to go defensive are you trying to say that 8% crit bonus is the same type of loss as going to 1h+board? The attack speed and wep skill doesn't even make a difference based on where it is in a raid anyway.Just face it, you play the most OP'd tank for progression in relation to other tanks that the game has ever seen. You can blame it on mechanics, you can blame it on other Fighters lacking enough tools, and/or you can blame it on Brawlers having too many tools. The point is the advantage is big and really trying to pretend like it doesn't exist is ridiculous when you can see and hear about how much of a difference it makes in progression.And stop twisting what I posted about ALL fighters getting all around more DPS. As Boli pointed out that is for better diversification in raid purposes in general. It is not just Plate tanks asking for more DPS. It is about what is better for the game and more enjoyable while also allowing for more diversity in raid set ups.Do you really not understand the difference items like these can make in mechanics?</blockquote>Shadowknights, zerkers, and bruisers shouldnt be able to take the one shots as well as guardians monks and paladins.You keep asking for more dps for those classes fine but you should NOT get more defensive then what you have on top of asking for increased dps.Other then that Paladins need a reliable stone skin to compete with guards and monks. Or are we going back to the bruener game of you asking for EVERYTHING for shadowknights again?</blockquote>This...I play a monk I should have better survivability than an SK on a single target hard hitting mob. As should a guard and a paly.</blockquote>Naw, you should go back to your emergency/CC role SOE gave you the tools for in the first place where Leathers belong.Paladins/Guards - MTSK/Zerk - OT.</blockquote>Sorry emergency/cc role is your role.

Bruener

09-01-2011, 09:05 PM

<cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite><blockquote><blockquote>Sorry emergency/cc role is your role.</blockquote></blockquote>Nope. Yours first with the tools of your class designed around it. Need to get you back in line.

BChizzle

09-01-2011, 09:08 PM

<cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite><blockquote><blockquote>Sorry emergency/cc role is your role.</blockquote></blockquote>Nope. Yours first with the tools of your class designed around it. Need to get you back in line.</blockquote>You are at the front of the line grabbing mobs after us brawlers die and holding them for us for a few secs, you are very useful in your role /pathead

Bruener

09-01-2011, 09:47 PM

<cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite><blockquote><blockquote>Sorry emergency/cc role is your role.</blockquote></blockquote>Nope. Yours first with the tools of your class designed around it. Need to get you back in line.</blockquote>You are at the front of the line grabbing mobs after us brawlers die and holding them for us for a few secs, you are very useful in your role /pathead</blockquote>Don't let the incoming nerfs hurt your feelings too bad. Hey remember when Brawlers owned for tanking back in T5 due to broken avoidance mechanics.....yeah, that was a tough fall.Go get 'em!!! /smackbutt

BChizzle

09-02-2011, 12:02 AM

<cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite><blockquote><blockquote>Sorry emergency/cc role is your role.</blockquote></blockquote>Nope. Yours first with the tools of your class designed around it. Need to get you back in line.</blockquote>You are at the front of the line grabbing mobs after us brawlers die and holding them for us for a few secs, you are very useful in your role /pathead</blockquote>Don't let the incoming nerfs hurt your feelings too bad. Hey remember when Brawlers owned for tanking back in T5 due to broken avoidance mechanics.....yeah, that was a tough fall.Go get 'em!!! /smackbutt</blockquote>There are no incoming nerfs at all and brawlers dont need anything besides a little more recast on their deathsave. Remember when you were able to not even use an OT and could just have an SK tank everything, well its not coming back.

The_Cheeseman

09-02-2011, 01:31 AM

<cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote>Naw, you should go back to your emergency/CC role SOE gave you the tools for in the first place where Leathers belong.Paladins/Guards - MTSK/Zerk - OT.</blockquote>Ahh, so the truth comes out. You don't want fighter balance, you want to go back to the days when Brawlers weren't even in the running for tank positions and you only had to compete with 3 other classes instead of 5. Sorry, but brawlers are tanks, that's what we've always been designed to do, even if the mechanics didn't always work properly. You're going to have to deal with the fact that we "leathers" can not just perform adequately, but even excel as tanks in today's game. I wish I could feel more sympathy for your plight, because it seems like our roles have simply reversed and you're now getting a bit of the bitter taste that we brawlers have had to stomach for years previous, but your attitude is making it very difficult. I understand that you don't represent the entire shadowknight community, but if your primary agenda is to get brawlers nerfed so that we go back to being merely this mythical "emergency tank" role you seem to have pulled from the deepest recesses of your imagination, I am inclined to hope that the devs let you languish for another few years until you learn what the actual definition of "balance" is.

Boli32

09-02-2011, 05:14 AM

tbh fighter avoidance should have only ever been given to brawlers in the first place....

Bruener

09-02-2011, 10:08 AM

<cite>The_Cheeseman wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote>Naw, you should go back to your emergency/CC role SOE gave you the tools for in the first place where Leathers belong.Paladins/Guards - MTSK/Zerk - OT.</blockquote>Ahh, so the truth comes out. You don't want fighter balance, you want to go back to the days when Brawlers weren't even in the running for tank positions and you only had to compete with 3 other classes instead of 5. Sorry, but brawlers are tanks, that's what we've always been designed to do, even if the mechanics didn't always work properly. You're going to have to deal with the fact that we "leathers" can not just perform adequately, but even excel as tanks in today's game. I wish I could feel more sympathy for your plight, because it seems like our roles have simply reversed and you're now getting a bit of the bitter taste that we brawlers have had to stomach for years previous, but your attitude is making it very difficult. I understand that you don't represent the entire shadowknight community, but if your primary agenda is to get brawlers nerfed so that we go back to being merely this mythical "emergency tank" role you seem to have pulled from the deepest recesses of your imagination, I am inclined to hope that the devs let you languish for another few years until you learn what the actual definition of "balance" is.</blockquote>No, I want things to go back to SF balance. This is where Brawlers could do any tank spot the BEST for a SHORT duration based on their temps. Fighter DPS was good, and Brawlers should be at the top. Utility that Brawlers bring buffing the MT is the BEST and hence every raid should want/need one. Allowing Brawlers to be the BEST at everything ALL the time is not balanced.I also didn't agree when SKs were prime MT material in TSO. I still don't think they should be and loved seeing Guards restored with the abilities to be that spot. I would like to see the Paladin pushed up to be the major competition for that spot...not Brawlers.You can call it OT if you want if that makes you feel better about your spot. Its CC, a 2nd OT spot. The one that can save a raid just by picking up anything if another tank dies. The one that can run across the room and grab a mob without healers and the worry about dying. No other tanks are given the type of tools do control mobs like Brawlers are. Don't you think there is some reason that those tools were given out?If suddenly SOE wants to change their vision and delegate that position to other Tanks...than they HAVE to give similar tools to do that job. Right now they don't exist on other Fighters in the abundance they do on Brawlers, and in the case of some abilities that are similar on other Fighters they do not have nearly as fast of a recast.It is way more healthy for Fighter mechanics to have 2 types of Fighters competing per slot versus all 6 competing for 3 spots, and 2 of those Fighters being the best for all 3 spots.

BChizzle

09-02-2011, 10:33 AM

2nd OT and CC is your job Duele grats and enjoy, meanwhile on realistic land the rest of us will stick with the ST tanks being best on ST and AE tanks being best on AE.

Bruener

09-02-2011, 11:17 AM

<cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite><blockquote>2nd OT and CC is your job Duele grats and enjoy, meanwhile on realistic land the rest of us will stick with the ST tanks being best on ST and AE tanks being best on AE.</blockquote>You make no sense. Right now "ST" tanks own ST by a huge margin...oh and they have better tools to handle AE as well. Monks still take way less damage than "AE" tanks on groups of mobs and can hold agro against a raid just fine due to transfers/hate buffs and abilities like Mantis with being able to smack every mob in front of them every auto attack round. Not to mention that a Monk have survival abilities that work awesome on ST and even better on AE. You know, things like Tsunami.Or how about the fact that Bruisers are stronger than any other Fighter on ST excepting maybe Monk when it comes to survivability.IF, and that is a big if because SOE has blurred the lines a ton, IF tanks are supposed to be divided into ST and AE categories than above Fighters need adjustments made to make sure they are in the position they should be. They also need to rework on abilities to make sure they are more ST focused instead of the best in both areas. I am sure all those "heroic" tanks would love that.The way it is now the "AE" tanks can't even come close to ST tanking like Brawlers and Guards. So the vice versa needs to be set up to make sure those ST tanks CAN'T even come close to surviving one mob hitting on them like AE tanks can. You know, this might be a great idea you have. It could be real easy to fix as well....abilities that are designed to avoid damage coming in fast on ST tanks just need to be changed to not work that way and instead should be changed to work more towards ST. Like Tsunami could be the parry ability it is, but could change it for the target of the monk only. The all around damage reduction would need to be changed since it provides an even better benefit against multiple mobs (talking about the 30% damage reduction for 3 seconds that can be up every 10 seconds the Brawler is hit) because if you have multiple mobs on you it basically guarantees 30% damage reduction 30% of the time from every mob.Yeah maybe you are right. Maybe we should try and split them better into ST and AE. Oh, and of course there needs to be a lot more AE need for Fighters on raids than too. Lots more adds...and not talking a ST add that is basically another named. We need lots of multiple mobs spawning on every encounter that tear through the raid unless they are tanks (so not something scouts and mages can tank for the 5 seconds it takes to kill them like in TSO).I really don't think the ST tanks outside of raiding would like these changes too much though....

SOE-MOD-08

09-02-2011, 11:40 AM

This post has moved: <a href="/eq2/posts/preList.m?topic_id=500098&post_id=5622863" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">/eq2/posts/preList.m?topic_id=50009...post_id=5622863</a> Removed for trolling

BChizzle

09-02-2011, 11:45 AM

<cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote>You make no sense. Right now "ST" tanks own ST by a huge margin...oh and they have better tools to handle AE as well. Monks still take way less damage than "AE" tanks on groups of mobs and can hold agro against a raid just fine due to transfers/hate buffs and abilities like Mantis with being able to smack every mob in front of them every auto attack round. Not to mention that a Monk have survival abilities that work awesome on ST and even better on AE. You know, things like Tsunami.Or how about the fact that Bruisers are stronger than any other Fighter on ST excepting maybe Monk when it comes to survivability.IF, and that is a big if because SOE has blurred the lines a ton, IF tanks are supposed to be divided into ST and AE categories than above Fighters need adjustments made to make sure they are in the position they should be. Monks should not be able to hold multiple mobs off of healers even....which is balanced since "AE" tanks can't even come close to standing up to a ST in survivability like Monks can. There also needs to be a rework on abilities to make sure they are more ST focused instead of the best in both areas. I am sure all those "heroic" tanks would love that.The way it is now the "AE" tanks can't even come close to ST tanking like Brawlers and Guards. So the vice versa needs to be set up to make sure those ST tanks CAN'T even come close to surviving one mob hitting on them like AE tanks can. You know, this might be a great idea you have. It could be real easy to fix as well....abilities that are designed to avoid damage coming in fast on ST tanks just need to be changed to not work that way and instead should be changed to work more towards ST. Like Tsunami could be the parry ability it is, but could change it for the target of the monk only. The all around damage reduction would need to be changed since it provides an even better benefit against multiple mobs (talking about the 30% damage reduction for 3 seconds that can be up every 10 seconds the Brawler is hit) because if you have multiple mobs on you it basically guarantees 30% damage reduction 30% of the time from every mob.Yeah maybe you are right. Maybe we should try and split them better into ST and AE. Oh, and of course there needs to be a lot more AE need for Fighters on raids than too. Lots more adds...and not talking a ST add that is basically another named. We need lots of multiple mobs spawning on every encounter that tear through the raid unless they are tanks (so not something scouts and mages can tank for the 5 seconds it takes to kill them like in TSO).I really don't think the ST tanks outside of raiding would like these changes too much though....</blockquote>Wrong, monks don't take better ae damage and they dont hold ae agro as effectively.I'd explain it to you but you aren't smart enough to understand.You really have no idea what other tanks can do and all you do is constantly ask for the dumbest things that would basically break classes all the while trying to make yours a god again. Please just do us a favor and go back to your emergency tank role you created for yourself.