Tank balance/roles in GU 61 [Archive] - EQ2 Forum Archive @ EQ2Wire

Arctic_Wulfe

08-21-2011, 08:16 PM

The last time I heard a dev talk about class roles, it was said that guardians are supposed to be the ultimate raiding tank, and berserkers are meant to be grouping tanks. Lame, but that is the "official" thoughts on the matters. Brawlers still need some serious love, but even they are getting buffs to be able to raid tank. Crusaders, on the other hand, seem to live outside of any sort of class rules. Paladins get to be able to do everything fairly well, and shadowknights get to do everything very well.There really is a flaw with this. Shadowknights can raid spectacularly- the second best main tank behind the guardian, arguably the first. They are also the second best group tank, behind the berserker- again, arguably the first. Combine the last expansion heavy dependance on stuns/stifle and other impairments to create a challenge, sks ability to self cure and ability to give their group short durations of immunity is invaluable. When someone asks who the best tank in the game is in level chat, the answer is always shadowknight- because it is true.With the new aa changes, you have given other classes very little, in comparison to shadowknights. I would simply like to point out that there is a huge inconsistency in the amount of the bonus for sk's new expertise changes. 15% strikethrough- it would take more than 2 red adornments to achieve this amount. Or, both a red and yellow forearm adornment gives 13%. Compare to the rangers 8% da, or the guardian 3% flurry, both of which can be almost achieved with a single red adornment. The double adornments slot trick would grant the guardian 4.5% flurry, and the ranger 12% da. And of course, with up to 10% to max health, it would take, impossibly, around 3 of the stout red adornments to achieve the same health gained from this from a raid geared shadowknight.At time of writing, there is 30 level 90 shadowknights logged on my server. Combine all other plate tanks, there are 34. To say sks are the most popular is an understatement. It's not hard to see why.

Talathion

08-21-2011, 08:20 PM

<cite>Arctic_Wulfe wrote:</cite><blockquote>The last time I heard a dev talk about class roles, it was said that guardians are supposed to be the ultimate raiding tank, and berserkers are meant to be grouping tanks. Lame, but that is the "official" thoughts on the matters. Brawlers still need some serious love, but even they are getting buffs to be able to raid tank. Crusaders, on the other hand, seem to live outside of any sort of class rules. Paladins get to be able to do everything fairly well, and shadowknights get to do everything very well.There really is a flaw with this. Shadowknights can raid spectacularly- the second best main tank behind the guardian, arguably the first. They are also the second best group tank, behind the berserker- again, arguably the first. Combine the last expansion heavy dependance on stuns/stifle and other impairments to create a challenge, sks ability to self cure and ability to give their group short durations of immunity is invaluable. When someone asks who the best tank in the game is in level chat, the answer is always shadowknight- because it is true.With the new aa changes, you have given other classes very little, in comparison to shadowknights. I would simply like to point out that there is a huge inconsistency in the amount of the bonus for sk's new expertise changes. 15% strikethrough- it would take more than 2 red adornments to achieve this amount. Or, both a red and yellow forearm adornment gives 13%. Compare to the rangers 8% da, or the guardian 3% flurry, both of which can be almost achieved with a single red adornment. The double adornments slot trick would grant the guardian 4.5% flurry, and the ranger 12% da. And of course, with up to 10% to max health, it would take, impossibly, around 3 of the stout red adornments to achieve the same health gained from this from a raid geared shadowknight.At time of writing, there is 30 level 90 shadowknights logged on my server. Combine all other plate tanks, there are 34. To say sks are the most popular is an understatement. It's not hard to see why.</blockquote>Brawlers are much better then Shadowknights, 10 fold.Brawlers are the best Group and Raid Tanks, your information is flawed and wrong.

kiku

08-21-2011, 08:25 PM

<cite>Arctic_Wulfe wrote:</cite><blockquote>The last time I heard a dev talk about class roles, it was said that guardians are supposed to be the ultimate raiding tank, and berserkers are meant to be grouping tanks. Lame, but that is the "official" thoughts on the matters. Brawlers still need some serious love, but even they are getting buffs to be able to raid tank. Crusaders, on the other hand, seem to live outside of any sort of class rules. Paladins get to be able to do everything fairly well, and shadowknights get to do everything very well.There really is a flaw with this. Shadowknights can raid spectacularly- the second best main tank behind the guardian, arguably the first. They are also the second best group tank, behind the berserker- again, arguably the first. Combine the last expansion heavy dependance on stuns/stifle and other impairments to create a challenge, sks ability to self cure and ability to give their group short durations of immunity is invaluable. When someone asks who the best tank in the game is in level chat, the answer is always shadowknight- because it is true.With the new aa changes, you have given other classes very little, in comparison to shadowknights. I would simply like to point out that there is a huge inconsistency in the amount of the bonus for sk's new expertise changes. 15% strikethrough- it would take more than 2 red adornments to achieve this amount. Or, both a red and yellow forearm adornment gives 13%. Compare to the rangers 8% da, or the guardian 3% flurry, both of which can be almost achieved with a single red adornment. The double adornments slot trick would grant the guardian 4.5% flurry, and the ranger 12% da. And of course, with up to 10% to max health, it would take, impossibly, around 3 of the stout red adornments to achieve the same health gained from this from a raid geared shadowknight.At time of writing, there is 30 level 90 shadowknights logged on my server. Combine all other plate tanks, there are 34. To say sks are the most popular is an understatement. It's not hard to see why.</blockquote>wow welcome back to TSO. SK dont have half the tools they need nor do paly or zerkers. Brawlers own.

Arctic_Wulfe

08-21-2011, 08:37 PM

Ah, the sad story of not having the apparent fortune to raid with a brawler. Good for the brawlers, but having another class better than the class better than most of the other plate tanks is not very reassuring. And my point on the aa changes still stand.Edit: I gess I assumed because I have not seen a raid force with a brawler mt. I assume you guys know several?

Elskidor

08-21-2011, 08:51 PM

It's Guardians/Brawlers right now. Brawlers got some great stuff this year, much like the summoner. Only difference is they weren't happy when realizing how well the summoner was doing so they kicked them back abit, which really should have been done to the brawler. Sure, make brawlers great tanks, but there just isn't a good excuse for them to be tanking as well as a Guardian. Kick them back to level of zerker/crusaders or go back and rework the others, and twink the Guard up a tad more.

Davngr1

08-21-2011, 08:55 PM

i said this would happen.. dev's should have just given guards some utllity and damage, so they could keep tank survivability about equal between all tanks. a tank that dies is useless and a tank that can't control an encounter is useless period. all tanks should be able to do both.. how they do them is were class comes in.

LardLord

08-21-2011, 09:16 PM

Gungo

08-21-2011, 09:25 PM

<cite>Talathion@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Arctic_Wulfe wrote:</cite><blockquote>The last time I heard a dev talk about class roles, it was said that guardians are supposed to be the ultimate raiding tank, and berserkers are meant to be grouping tanks. Lame, but that is the "official" thoughts on the matters. Brawlers still need some serious love, but even they are getting buffs to be able to raid tank. Crusaders, on the other hand, seem to live outside of any sort of class rules. Paladins get to be able to do everything fairly well, and shadowknights get to do everything very well.There really is a flaw with this. Shadowknights can raid spectacularly- the second best main tank behind the guardian, arguably the first. They are also the second best group tank, behind the berserker- again, arguably the first. Combine the last expansion heavy dependance on stuns/stifle and other impairments to create a challenge, sks ability to self cure and ability to give their group short durations of immunity is invaluable. When someone asks who the best tank in the game is in level chat, the answer is always shadowknight- because it is true.With the new aa changes, you have given other classes very little, in comparison to shadowknights. I would simply like to point out that there is a huge inconsistency in the amount of the bonus for sk's new expertise changes. 15% strikethrough- it would take more than 2 red adornments to achieve this amount. Or, both a red and yellow forearm adornment gives 13%. Compare to the rangers 8% da, or the guardian 3% flurry, both of which can be almost achieved with a single red adornment. The double adornments slot trick would grant the guardian 4.5% flurry, and the ranger 12% da. And of course, with up to 10% to max health, it would take, impossibly, around 3 of the stout red adornments to achieve the same health gained from this from a raid geared shadowknight.At time of writing, there is 30 level 90 shadowknights logged on my server. Combine all other plate tanks, there are 34. To say sks are the most popular is an understatement. It's not hard to see why.</blockquote>Brawlers are much better then Shadowknights, 10 fold.Brawlers are the best Group and Raid Tanks, your information is flawed and wrong.</blockquote>The stuff the makes brawlers good raid tanks (strikethrough immunity) doesnt mean jack in heroic tanking. The stuff that is useless in raids heal procs and high aoe agro is much better in heroic settings. While brawlers are much better in aoe control nowadays they still dont compare to the shadowknigth/zerker.Regardless to say brawlers are the best heroic tank is your own bias and has no basis in fact. As a raid maintank you are correct monks and guardians are preferred.

EvilAstroboy

08-21-2011, 09:28 PM

<cite>Arctic_Wulfe wrote:</cite><blockquote>Ah, the sad story of not having the apparent fortune to raid with a brawler. Good for the brawlers, but having another class better than the class better than most of the other plate tanks is not very reassuring. And my point on the aa changes still stand.Edit: I gess I assumed because I have not seen a raid force with a brawler mt. I assume you guys know several?</blockquote>This thread is fail. All decent guilds use brawlers now, and SKs are at the bottom of the tank pile. There are so many because they were FOTM for TSO / SF and people couldnt be bothered re-rolling. They still do the job for heroic zones, but they are the worst raid tank in this expansion. Although Zerkers arent too far ahead.

Bruener

08-21-2011, 09:36 PM

<cite>Gungo@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote>Regardless to say brawlers are the best heroic tank is your own bias and has no basis in fact. As a raid maintank you are correct monks, and guardians are preferred.</blockquote>And as a raid Offtank either Brawler or Guard still owns. Oh and probably as a 3rd tank having another Brawler or Guard owns too.So sick of having to brawler tank encounters because they are basically broken for everybody else.

The_Cheeseman

08-22-2011, 01:06 AM

<cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote>And as a raid Offtank either Brawler or Guard still owns. Oh and probably as a 3rd tank having another Brawler or Guard owns too.So sick of having to brawler tank encounters because they are basically broken for everybody else.</blockquote>I know it's wrong to feel this way, but having played a monk since launch day, I am SO excited about being on the other side of this sentiment for the first time. However, I honestly don't think the issue is one of brawlers being better than other tanks in a vacuum, it's more the fact that Velious content seems to cater to the brawler's strengths. It's mostly single-target encounters that hit like trucks no matter how much mitigation you have, so that avoidance temps, death prevents, and stoneskins are the name of the game. What makes brawlers seem to overpowered in Velious is the fact that new armor has brought every fighter so high into the mitigation curve that the stat is mostly pointless, and weaker armor is meant to be one of the major disadvantages of the brawler classes.Once again, it's just a matter of the numbers getting so high that the mechanics of the game stop working well.

Xalmat

08-22-2011, 01:10 AM

<cite>The_Cheeseman wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite>Once again, it's just a matter of the numbers getting so high that the mechanics of the game stop working well.</blockquote>Why are the devs even allowing this to happen?

scalzo

08-22-2011, 03:32 AM

Wow I have never seen so many cry babies about brawlers tanking? Brawler is a fighter correct? Then it is a tank correct? I have been playing the Monk class since the T-5 days and now it's the most balanced that I have seen it. For many years Brawlers where treated as the red headed step child of EQ2. Now they have a proper place and all we get is QQ. The Brawler class is not OP.

x82nd77

08-22-2011, 10:49 AM

<cite>scalzo wrote:</cite><blockquote>Wow I have never seen so many cry babies about brawlers tanking? Brawler is a fighter correct? Then it is a tank correct? I have been playing the Monk class since the T-5 days and now it's the most balanced that I have seen it. For many years Brawlers where treated as the red headed step child of EQ2. Now they have a proper place and all we get is QQ. The Brawler class is not OP.</blockquote>I remember when the shadowknights were the "step children" of Norrath...see how well fixes to them worked out? Half the population are sks.

urgthock

08-22-2011, 11:15 AM

<cite>Gungo@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote>The stuff the makes brawlers good raid tanks (strikethrough immunity) doesnt mean jack in heroic tanking. The stuff that is useless in raids heal procs and high aoe agro is much better in heroic settings. While brawlers are much better in aoe control nowadays they still dont compare to the shadowknigth/zerker.Regardless to say brawlers are the best heroic tank is your own bias and has no basis in fact. As a raid maintank you are correct monks and guardians are preferred.</blockquote>This is exactly correct. It appears that the Heroic AA given to brawlers are absolutely IDEAL for the content that exists in DoV when combined with their inherent strikethrough immunity. I don't see how that makes brawlers overpowered; merely perfectly balanced for the current content. Also, since the "flavor" of guardians is damage avoidance via stoneskins and other abilities that completely negate damage as opposed to the other 3 tanks that all have abilities that mitigate damage, it is easy to see why players of those other 3 tanks feel the way they do. It is also interesting to note that while eveyrone states that Guardians are "fine", they complain that brawlers are overepowered. I think that they believe this because they have grown accustomed to the idea that brawlers "should be" inferior tanks and they no longer are. That does not make brawlers overpowered. That is simply a flaw in their perceptions.For what it's worth, I do think that some of the damage mitigation abilities of the other tanks should either be a bit buffed up or some additional damage avoidance abilities should be added, IF the devs plan on continuing to design mobs the way they are now. If they instead plan on making more group encounters or utilizing other mechanics for mobs, then you will start to see those other tanks shine a bit more. It is all relative to the current design of mob encounters.

ShamusOB

08-22-2011, 11:19 AM

circusgirl

08-22-2011, 11:20 AM

Can I just say, its rather nice that now we're at a point where folks on the forums literally can not agree about whether individual classes are the best or worst at their job? We've had both brawlers and shadowknights declared the best fighters and the worst fighters in this post. Frankly, I think thats rather heartening! Personally, I think brawlers are really strong right now, but it's mostly because of content choices like cooperative strike and putting strikethrough on the fail mechanic buffs--content choices that they are continually tweaking to make less preferential to brawlers. You have 6 seconds to get control of a cooperative strike mob now, making brawler's avoidance less of an issue, and they're removing strikethrough from the fail mechanic buffs. Things are still very heavily single-target, but there's still a lot of places where AE tanks can shine.

Talathion

08-22-2011, 11:37 AM

<cite>Vinka@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>Can I just say, its rather nice that now we're at a point where folks on the forums literally can not agree about whether individual classes are the best or worst at their job? We've had both brawlers and shadowknights declared the best fighters and the worst fighters in this post. Frankly, I think thats rather heartening! Personally, I think brawlers are really strong right now, but it's mostly because of content choices like cooperative strike and putting strikethrough on the fail mechanic buffs--content choices that they are continually tweaking to make less preferential to brawlers. You have 6 seconds to get control of a cooperative strike mob now, making brawler's avoidance less of an issue, and they're removing strikethrough from the fail mechanic buffs. Things are still very heavily single-target, but there's still a lot of places where AE tanks can shine.</blockquote>I wanna be a Monk with 100% AOE autoattack! <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

ShamusOB

08-22-2011, 11:50 AM

This whole idea of sks needing to be fixed is amusing. Zerkers needing a fix is equally amusing. You complainers need to understand your role in a raid. Zerkers are still miles ahead of any tank at swarm adds. Youre an OT learn to love it because its what your class does best. You'll find that you can also parse a lot more this way. Sks have so much rediculous AE dps and utility you belong in the mage group dpsing and helping pick up adds. No other tank has half the utility of an sk. Guards issue is there aren't enough good ones left showing how capable they are of locking down one mob and staying alive. If you think they are bad get good. Brawlers can tank since SF, half of you just didn't notice how useful they can be. Stop being so mad about Brawlers actually having raid slots when they never did. Brawlers were terrible just as long as sks were so that defense can go out the window. The content doesn't cater to aoe tanks standing in the middle of a pile of mobs all snapping and blasting their business all over everyone else this xpac, cry about that not Brawlers.

Talathion

08-22-2011, 11:52 AM

<cite>ShamusOB wrote:</cite><blockquote>This whole idea of sks needing to be fixed is amusing. Zerkers needing a fix is equally amusing. You complainers need to understand your role in a raid. Zerkers are still miles ahead of any tank at swarm adds. Youre an OT learn to love it because its what your class does best. You'll find that you can also parse a lot more this way. Sks have so much rediculous AE dps and utility you belong in the mage group dpsing and helping pick up adds. No other tank has half the utility of an sk. Guards issue is there aren't enough good ones left showing how capable they are of locking down one mob and staying alive. If you think they are bad get good. Brawlers can tank since SF, half of you just didn't notice how useful they can be. Stop being so mad about Brawlers actually having raid slots when they never did. Brawlers were terrible just as long as sks were so that defense can go out the window. The content doesn't cater to aoe tanks standing in the middle of a pile of mobs all snapping and blasting their business all over everyone else this xpac, cry about that not Brawlers.</blockquote>Because every raid and heroic has a bunch of swarming adds! amiright?!

ShamusOB

08-22-2011, 11:56 AM

Talathion

08-22-2011, 11:58 AM

<cite>ShamusOB wrote:</cite><blockquote>This whole idea of sks needing to be fixed is amusing. Zerkers needing a fix is equally amusing. You complainers need to understand your role in a raid. Zerkers are still miles ahead of any tank at swarm adds. Youre an OT learn to love it because its what your class does best. You'll find that you can also parse a lot more this way. Sks have so much rediculous AE dps and utility you belong in the mage group dpsing and helping pick up adds. No other tank has half the utility of an sk. Guards issue is there aren't enough good ones left showing how capable they are of locking down one mob and staying alive. If you think they are bad get good. Brawlers can tank since SF, half of you just didn't notice how useful they can be. Stop being so mad about Brawlers actually having raid slots when they never did. Brawlers were terrible just as long as sks were so that defense can go out the window. The content doesn't cater to aoe tanks standing in the middle of a pile of mobs all snapping and blasting their business all over everyone else this xpac, cry about that not Brawlers.</blockquote>Because every raid and heroic has a bunch of swarming adds! amiright?!Posted that twice, right?

ShamusOB

08-22-2011, 12:32 PM

Yes every raid zone has these. Stop wanting everything every other class has. If you played the others you would wish for things zerkers have. Maby I should post this 3 times for you to read.

Buzzing

08-22-2011, 12:41 PM

<cite>ShamusOB wrote:</cite><blockquote>This whole idea of sks needing to be fixed is amusing. Zerkers needing a fix is equally amusing. You complainers need to understand your role in a raid. Zerkers are still miles ahead of any tank at swarm adds. Youre an OT learn to love it because its what your class does best. You'll find that you can also parse a lot more this way. Sks have so much rediculous AE dps and utility you belong in the mage group dpsing and helping pick up adds. No other tank has half the utility of an sk. Guards issue is there aren't enough good ones left showing how capable they are of locking down one mob and staying alive. If you think they are bad get good. Brawlers can tank since SF, half of you just didn't notice how useful they can be. Stop being so mad about Brawlers actually having raid slots when they never did. Brawlers were terrible just as long as sks were so that defense can go out the window. The content doesn't cater to aoe tanks standing in the middle of a pile of mobs all snapping and blasting their business all over everyone else this xpac, cry about that not Brawlers.</blockquote>love how all the class blance posts niglect the pali...

Maergoth

08-22-2011, 12:49 PM

Monk>Bruiser>Guardian>SK>Paladin>BerserkerZerkers are the best at something at least, swarm adds. Unfortunately, there aren't many swarm adds. Paladins aren't the best at anything, and are the worst at MOST things.v-- Completely ignored --v<a href="list.m?topic_id=504897">Paladin In-Testing Feedback Thread </a>^-- Completely ignored --^That's the problem. Lack of communication with players. Less people play paladins, less noise is generated, and most people don't have enough of a clue nor care to provide feedback. When good players give feedback, it's completely ignored.They just dartboard their OP class yearly, guessing Paladins are the bulls-eye and SOE isn't good at darts.

Elskidor

08-22-2011, 01:10 PM

I'd take a Pally over a Zerker or SK actually.Hey, my Warlock could tank better than a Brawler a couple years ago, can we fix this and make Warlocks the number 1 tank in game? Fighters are boring. C'mon it's not too much to ask when seeing how screwed up the rest of the classes are. Turn all their spells to have a siphon health that crits, and give the option for the zillion SK's to betray to them. Nobody wants an SK anymore anyhow. Brawlers tank/heal/dps, might aswell let a Mage.

Boli32

08-22-2011, 01:15 PM

SKs and zerkers have more snaps than pallys (thus better at OTing) and have more stoneskins/death prevents (thus better at MTing) SKs and zerkers also give better buffs and utility to their group/raid and do more DPS.But pallys are obviously OPed.....

Buzzing

08-22-2011, 01:36 PM

<cite>Boli@Splitpaw wrote:</cite><blockquote>SKs and zerkers have more snaps than pallys (thus better at OTing) and have more stoneskins/death prevents (thus better at MTing) SKs and zerkers also give better buffs and utility to their group/raid and do more DPS.But pallys are obviously OPed.....</blockquote>I'm guessing that most of the Paladin population as quite, betrayed or rolled a monk. Most of what they must be basing there assumptions on is that we are still some how showing up in the end game. Really all it is, is the die hards that have been playing the class threw all the low points. Most of the Paldins that are left raiding the end game have been doing just that for a very long time. I can only point out maybe a handful of Paladins you could even recognize anymore and they are amongst the best players in game, not just as a Paladin but as players in general.

Bruener

08-22-2011, 01:50 PM

There is so much false info going on this thread that I think I will just have a string of replies pointing out everything that is wrong.To clarify right off the bat Brawlers are OP'd right now in progression tanking.Crusaders and Zerkers need a little bump in tools to handle spike damage since that is all that it is about in todays game.

Gungo

08-22-2011, 01:54 PM

<cite>Maergoth wrote:</cite><blockquote>Monk>Bruiser>Guardian>SK>Paladin>BerserkerZerkers are the best at something at least, swarm adds. Unfortunately, there aren't many swarm adds. Paladins aren't the best at anything, and are the worst at MOST things.v-- Completely ignored --v<a href="list.m?topic_id=504897">Paladin In-Testing Feedback Thread </a>^-- Completely ignored --^That's the problem. Lack of communication with players. Less people play paladins, less noise is generated, and most people don't have enough of a clue nor care to provide feedback. When good players give feedback, it's completely ignored.They just dartboard their OP class yearly, guessing Paladins are the bulls-eye and SOE isn't good at darts.</blockquote>Class balance doesnt need a whole lot to make it alot balanced. Give paladins a reliable castable stone skin.Put a small amount of damage reduction on adrenaline for zerkers 10% or so. Make bloodletter castable in combat. (recast on expiration)All death saves should NOT be improved unless by direct means such as red adorns, AA's , etc. (The whole permnant death save up all the time mechanic is out of hand)Put strikethough immunity on all avoidance temps even the paladin 100% block ability; WHILE IN DEFENSIVE STANCE.

circusgirl

08-22-2011, 01:54 PM

<cite>Talathion@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Vinka@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>Can I just say, its rather nice that now we're at a point where folks on the forums literally can not agree about whether individual classes are the best or worst at their job? We've had both brawlers and shadowknights declared the best fighters and the worst fighters in this post. Frankly, I think thats rather heartening! Personally, I think brawlers are really strong right now, but it's mostly because of content choices like cooperative strike and putting strikethrough on the fail mechanic buffs--content choices that they are continually tweaking to make less preferential to brawlers. You have 6 seconds to get control of a cooperative strike mob now, making brawler's avoidance less of an issue, and they're removing strikethrough from the fail mechanic buffs. Things are still very heavily single-target, but there's still a lot of places where AE tanks can shine.</blockquote>I wanna be a Monk with 100% AOE autoattack! <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" /></blockquote>Hey, me too!

Gungo

08-22-2011, 01:56 PM

<cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote>There is so much false info going on this thread that I think I will just have a string of replies pointing out everything that is wrong.To clarify right off the bat Brawlers are OP'd right now in progression tanking.Crusaders and Zerkers need a little bump in tools to handle spike damage since that is all that it is about in todays game.</blockquote>BRUENER motto nerf all other tansk buff shadowknights even in tso when his class was the OP class. Good thing most people already know he has no idea what he is talking about.

circusgirl

08-22-2011, 02:01 PM

<cite>Maergoth wrote:</cite><blockquote>Monk>Bruiser>Guardian>SK>Paladin>BerserkerZerkers are the best at something at least, swarm adds. Unfortunately, there aren't many swarm adds. Paladins aren't the best at anything, and are the worst at MOST things.v-- Completely ignored --v<a href="list.m?topic_id=504897">Paladin In-Testing Feedback Thread </a>^-- Completely ignored --^That's the problem. Lack of communication with players. Less people play paladins, less noise is generated, and most people don't have enough of a clue nor care to provide feedback. When good players give feedback, it's completely ignored.They just dartboard their OP class yearly, guessing Paladins are the bulls-eye and SOE isn't good at darts.</blockquote>That's not entirely true. Paladins are the best at tanking in a non-ideal setup. They're the best at coping with your swashy, coercer, or dirge being on vacation. Unfortunately, they don't really shine as much as other classes when they're given that ideal group setup, and that hurts them a lot in high-end play.

slippery

08-22-2011, 02:11 PM

I'm pretty sure most of the people in this thread haven't even pulled the majority of raid encounters.

ShamusOB

08-22-2011, 02:23 PM

I've killed almost everything killable and pulled the rest minus sorren because no one cares about it. I think Brawlers are good for sure and have their place in raids. Things aren't so out of balance as this thread would like people to believe.

slippery

08-22-2011, 02:33 PM

Prior to changes tomorrow Drunder HM zones are impossible without Brawlers. Statue isn't much better, and if you actually want to execute a strat on Tormax other than burn good luck with a non brawler tank on the dragon. Even on all the other stuff, the difference in the amount of damage a Brawler takes vs a Plate tank is substantial. They just don't get hit. Trying to say otherwise is just ignorant.

slippery

08-22-2011, 02:34 PM

That isn't even touching on the quantity and speed of Monk snaps

LardLord

08-22-2011, 02:39 PM

You have to press buttons correctly to show how Brawlers are blatantly overpowered. If you waste all your temps (or are playing with someone who wastes all their temps), I could see how you might not think Brawlers are all that great, heh.EDIT: Gearing/buffing/spec'ing for reuse also makes it more obvious.

Gungo

08-22-2011, 03:41 PM

Back in TSO when they gave shadowknights a PERMANANT 100% multiple trigger death saved they started to ruin the game in the fact they needed to account for the fact players will tank content and need to be killed multiple times in order to increase the challenge of todays raid tanks.Now we are at the point were SOE is programming mutliple Death prevent or die mechanics, because now brawlers have a death save with multiple triggers that is up a good portion of the time. Other IMMUNITY temp buffs such as stoneskins and to a much lesser degree avoidbuffs/damage reduction (they dont negate super high damage aoe's or insta kill mechanics)also add to the issue.Now some fighters(paladins) dont have the tools needed to prevent these insta gibe effects, some fighters (shadowknights) cant keep up thier death prevents in longer duration fights and some fighters(zerkers) didnt have enough of these tools to prevent them with a reoccuring cast time of 30-45 secs on aoe's/death effects pre gu61.Now maybe it was SOE intention fighters would have to absorb/switch tank these encounters death effects in some fasion, but some fighters can deal with these effects by themselves making them ideal maintanks.Even with strikethrough changes which is needed since strikethrough was a POOR mechanic to decrease uncontested avoidance on tanks. (epic npcs need to naturally contest uncontested avoidance in a progressive based fasion such as buffs that reduce uncontested avoidance by 20% in DOV, uncapping avoidance skills to give uncontested avoidance is a good step toward this design). The main issue is death prevents. In TSO shadowknights were the most stable tank because of thier death prevent. In DOV brawlers are because of thier death prevent.They need to make ALL death prevents unmodifiable unless by direct means. They should also make the shadowknights death prevent castable in combat. They should also give paladins a reliable stoneskin. Zerkers may be fine after these changes or they can use an additional 10% damage reduction on adrenaline. I honestly dont know yet how the new changes will play out in practical use. If all those changes dont balance tank classes enough then they should make ALL avoidance temps for fighters strikethrough immune including the paladin 100% block ability, while in DEFENSIVE STANCE. Those changes should in theory give all tanks the tools to absorb/avoid the current prevent or die mechanics in todays raid game. This doesnt get into agro, hate gain, or positionals abilities which should be balanced in its own way.

Silzin

08-22-2011, 03:47 PM

I think the idea of “Put strikethough immunity on all avoidance temps even the paladin 100% block ability; WHILE IN DEFENSIVE STANCE.” Should be implemented regardless of other changes. These temp buffs are designed as a short time to help stabilize the tank and let the healers catch up est.

LardLord

08-22-2011, 03:50 PM

<cite>Gungo@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote>They need to make ALL death prevents unmodifiable unless by direct means. </blockquote>Tbh they could apply that to all defensive temps and things would probably be a lot more balanced...heck of a nerf, though.

Corydonn

08-22-2011, 03:50 PM

<cite>slippery wrote:</cite><blockquote>Prior to changes tomorrow Drunder HM zones are impossible without Brawlers. Statue isn't much better, and if you actually want to execute a strat on Tormax other than burn good luck with a non brawler tank on the dragon. Even on all the other stuff, the difference in the amount of damage a Brawler takes vs a Plate tank is substantial. They just don't get hit. Trying to say otherwise is just ignorant.</blockquote>This.

Gungo

08-22-2011, 04:01 PM

<cite>Quabi@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Gungo@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote>They need to make ALL death prevents unmodifiable unless by direct means. </blockquote>Tbh they could apply that to all defensive temps and things would probably be a lot more balanced...heck of a nerf, though.</blockquote>True, because if they wanted to balance classes it could be controlled alot easier with adornments/AA's adjustments to those abilities.But not all defensive temps are equal. Avoid buffs and SMALL AMOUNTS of damage reductions will reduce damage they wont prevent super high damage frontal/aoe's or death mechanics from killing your tanks.Stone skins which are significantly better then the above 2 defense temps SHOULD be controllable since they should be in smaller amounts 1-2 stone skins per ability. And these shouldnt work on deathtouch abilites. Also alot of the castable stone skin abilites such a as guardians Tower of stone already have significant amount of AA's toward them to reduce the recast already.Long duration fast recast death prevents means the game has to be designed to kill tanks multiple times.You also need to make sure all fighters have the tools to survive these raid encounters and the simple fact is some fighters dont have the tools. A mass defensive temp nerf will still mean no fighter will be able to tank the current content.

LardLord

08-22-2011, 04:16 PM

<cite>Gungo@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote>But not all defensive temps are equal. Avoid buffs and SMALL AMOUNTS of damage reductions will reduce damage they wont prevent super high damage frontal/aoe's or death mechanics from killing your tanks.Stone skins which are significantly better then the above 2 defense temps SHOULD be controllable since they should be in smaller amounts 1-2 stone skins per ability. And these shouldnt work on deathtouch abilites. Also alot of the castable stone skin abilites such a as guardians Tower of stone already have significant amount of AA's toward them to reduce the recast already.</blockquote>I agree that long duration temps that only slightly reduce damage aren't much of a problem, except that they can be stacked with other temps (including healer temps like DG) to have a significant effect.The problem with stoneskins scaling with reuse is that tanks without as many stoneskins (or other similar anti-spike temps) have seen their survivability fall behind. Considering it can always been timed perfectly with mob cast bars, the difference between Superior Guard casting every 60 seconds and casting every 30-40 seconds is huge on many raid encounters. That's a survivability increase that tanks who rely on more passive survivability tools will not see. Monks get the normal increase to mit/avoidance/crit mit/ect, while also getting a huge bonus from reuse. It's similar to what we had last year with fighter heals scaling so quickly.

Yimway

08-22-2011, 04:18 PM

LardLord

08-22-2011, 04:24 PM

<cite>Gungo@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote>You also need to make sure all fighters have the tools to survive these raid encounters and the simple fact is some fighters dont have the tools. A mass defensive temp nerf will still mean no fighter will be able to tank the current content.</blockquote>The content needs to be killable obviously, but you also need to make sure that you don't put too much responsibility on the fighters for their own survivability, or there won't be any need for defensive healers.

Gungo

08-22-2011, 04:31 PM

<cite>Quabi@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Gungo@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote>But not all defensive temps are equal. Avoid buffs and SMALL AMOUNTS of damage reductions will reduce damage they wont prevent super high damage frontal/aoe's or death mechanics from killing your tanks.Stone skins which are significantly better then the above 2 defense temps SHOULD be controllable since they should be in smaller amounts 1-2 stone skins per ability. And these shouldnt work on deathtouch abilites. Also alot of the castable stone skin abilites such a as guardians Tower of stone already have significant amount of AA's toward them to reduce the recast already.</blockquote>I agree that long duration temps that only slightly reduce damage aren't much of a problem, except that they can be stacked with other temps (including healer temps like DG) to have a significant effect.The problem with stoneskins scaling with reuse is that tanks without as many stoneskins (or other similar anti-spike temps) have seen their survivability fall behind. Considering it can always been timed perfectly with mob cast bars, the difference between Superior Guard casting every 60 seconds and casting every 30-40 seconds is huge on many raid encounters. That's a survivability increase that tanks who rely on more passive survivability tools will not see. Monks get the normal increase to mit/avoidance/crit mit/ect, while also getting a huge bonus from reuse. It's similar to what we had last year with fighter heals scaling so quickly.</blockquote>I agree and a monk really only has 2 stone skins, superior guard(single (Does it prevent spell damage?) stoneskin) and inner focus(2x physical damage only). I dont really consider 2 stoneskin abilities excessive in todays game even at that recast especially if superior guard is physical only.Guardians have multiple more (which is why they were designed by the developers to be the most reliable maintank.) Paladins need a stoneskin ability(preferably both physical/spell) along with thier block ability (physical damage only).Those are suppose to be the more defensive tanks. Zerkers now have several stoneskin type abilities after gu61. Shadowknights have 2 as well along with mana wall.Bruisers have 2 as well (not including the random stoneskin proc abilites which is not reliable to prevent the aoe/death prevents we are discussing).I still think death prevents being up most of the time is what is hurting tank balance right now. It has been since TSO and bloodletter.

Gungo

08-22-2011, 04:31 PM

<cite>Quabi@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Gungo@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote>You also need to make sure all fighters have the tools to survive these raid encounters and the simple fact is some fighters dont have the tools. A mass defensive temp nerf will still mean no fighter will be able to tank the current content.</blockquote>The content needs to be killable obviously, but you also need to make sure that you don't put too much responsibility on the fighters for their own survivability, or there won't be any need for defensive healers.</blockquote>True, especially on the defensive healer part.

Buzzing

08-22-2011, 05:49 PM

<cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>slippery wrote:</cite><blockquote>Prior to changes tomorrow Drunder HM zones are impossible without Brawlers. Statue isn't much better, and if you actually want to execute a strat on Tormax other than burn good luck with a non brawler tank on the dragon. Even on all the other stuff, the difference in the amount of damage a Brawler takes vs a Plate tank is substantial. They just don't get hit. Trying to say otherwise is just ignorant.</blockquote>^^^ This.But Xelgad already knows this.</blockquote>right... but nothing I can see is on the plate to actually fix it.Don't nerf brawlers, I think it is bad A that they can tank raids now. However there should be other options as well. I would like to be considered for tanking based on my skill and not tossed aside because I'm a pali.

Bruener

08-22-2011, 06:01 PM

<cite>Gungo@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Quabi@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Gungo@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote>But not all defensive temps are equal. Avoid buffs and SMALL AMOUNTS of damage reductions will reduce damage they wont prevent super high damage frontal/aoe's or death mechanics from killing your tanks.Stone skins which are significantly better then the above 2 defense temps SHOULD be controllable since they should be in smaller amounts 1-2 stone skins per ability. And these shouldnt work on deathtouch abilites. Also alot of the castable stone skin abilites such a as guardians Tower of stone already have significant amount of AA's toward them to reduce the recast already.</blockquote>I agree that long duration temps that only slightly reduce damage aren't much of a problem, except that they can be stacked with other temps (including healer temps like DG) to have a significant effect.The problem with stoneskins scaling with reuse is that tanks without as many stoneskins (or other similar anti-spike temps) have seen their survivability fall behind. Considering it can always been timed perfectly with mob cast bars, the difference between Superior Guard casting every 60 seconds and casting every 30-40 seconds is huge on many raid encounters. That's a survivability increase that tanks who rely on more passive survivability tools will not see. Monks get the normal increase to mit/avoidance/crit mit/ect, while also getting a huge bonus from reuse. It's similar to what we had last year with fighter heals scaling so quickly.</blockquote>I agree and a monk really only has 2 stone skins, superior guard(single (Does it prevent spell damage?) stoneskin) and inner focus(2x physical damage only). I dont really consider 2 stoneskin abilities excessive in todays game even at that recast especially if superior guard is physical only.Guardians have multiple more (which is why they were designed by the developers to be the most reliable maintank.) Paladins need a stoneskin ability(preferably both physical/spell) along with thier block ability (physical damage only).Those are suppose to be the more defensive tanks. Zerkers now have several stoneskin type abilities after gu61. Shadowknights have 2 as well along with mana wall.Bruisers have 2 as well (not including the random stoneskin proc abilites which is not reliable to prevent the aoe/death prevents we are discussing).I still think death prevents being up most of the time is what is hurting tank balance right now. It has been since TSO and bloodletter.</blockquote>Both Crusaders have Manawall. It is a garbage ability.Hey lets make a survivability temp buff that works on using huge amounts of power and than just keep pumping out mass amounts of encounters that drain power.Sometimes the ability gets to absorb like 1 big hit and drain the tank completely of power. Most of the time the ability doesn't absorb anything because the Crusader has such little amount of power.Of course this was pointed out in Beta but it was deemed to give Crusaders nothing for DoV.

Bremer

08-22-2011, 06:06 PM

<cite>Gungo@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote>Zerkers now have several stoneskin type abilities after gu61. Bruisers have 2 as well (not including the random stoneskin proc abilites which is not reliable to prevent the aoe/death prevents we are discussing).</blockquote>So a shortime buff with a chance to proc stoneskin when you fall under 50 % counts as reliable to prevent aoe/death?

Gungo

08-22-2011, 06:20 PM

<cite>Bremer wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Gungo@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote>Zerkers now have several stoneskin type abilities after gu61. Bruisers have 2 as well (not including the random stoneskin proc abilites which is not reliable to prevent the aoe/death prevents we are discussing).</blockquote>So a shortime buff with a chance to proc stoneskin when you fall under 50 % counts as reliable to prevent aoe/death?</blockquote>No but a 3 sec complete physical damage immunity is.

Buzzing

08-22-2011, 06:21 PM

Gungo

08-22-2011, 06:23 PM

<cite>Buzzing@Butcherblock wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Bremer wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Gungo@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote>Zerkers now have several stoneskin type abilities after gu61. Bruisers have 2 as well (not including the random stoneskin proc abilites which is not reliable to prevent the aoe/death prevents we are discussing).</blockquote>So a shortime buff with a chance to proc stoneskin when you fall under 50 % counts as reliable to prevent aoe/death?</blockquote>and... derailed...</blockquote>He is being purposefully obtuse. Zerks got a 3 sec physical damage immunity this LU. It will prevent any physical aoe/damage they receive. Including any physical damage death effects we were discussing.

Buzzing

08-22-2011, 06:35 PM

<cite>Gungo@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Buzzing@Butcherblock wrote:</cite><blockquote>and... derailed...</blockquote>He is being purposefully obtuse. Zerks got a 3 sec physical damage immunity this LU. It will prevent any physical aoe/damage they receive.</blockquote>I know, was just pointing out that when people argue like this nothing really gets done. We toss each other under the bus and the topic fades out.I'm not saying I have never tossed peeps under the bus, just noting that it doesn't normally help at all.

Demonator

08-23-2011, 10:57 AM

Everything was so balanced in SF tank wise, and the ones that complain it - just did not how to play the game. every tank was capable of MT, OT, DPS (Granted Guardian were lowest on the dps scale, but highest on survivability IF THEY KNEW HOW TO PLAY - which has always been the case).I Hope a dev reads this thread and understand that tanks are so out of wack right now its rediculous..I'm not one them people who cry to nerf the other tank and make mine better, cause thats just not how i do things, but the dev's can very well see which tanks are capable atm, and which aren't, and all i personally ask is to bring the hurting tanks (Cough, Zerker, Pali, Sk) Up to the same tanking abilities as the Capable tanks, without nerfing them..

Bremer

08-23-2011, 12:04 PM

<cite>Gungo@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Buzzing@Butcherblock wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Bremer wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Gungo@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote>Zerkers now have several stoneskin type abilities after gu61. Bruisers have 2 as well (not including the random stoneskin proc abilites which is not reliable to prevent the aoe/death prevents we are discussing).</blockquote>So a shortime buff with a chance to proc stoneskin when you fall under 50 % counts as reliable to prevent aoe/death?</blockquote>and... derailed...</blockquote>He is being purposefully obtuse. Zerks got a 3 sec physical damage immunity this LU. It will prevent any physical aoe/damage they receive. Including any physical damage death effects we were discussing.</blockquote>Gut Roar could block an AE before. Nothing changed. And it only works against physical damage.Against non-physical damage Berserkers have Perfect Counter on a 4 min reuse timer, then DI and than they are out of tools. While a Bruiser can rotate Stone Deaf, Tenacity, Unyielding Resolve, Impenetrable Will (to leave wards intact) and you make it sound as if it was more or less equal.

Buzzing

08-23-2011, 12:11 PM

without a dev to let us know, we don't actually know what else has been changed if anything. Some of the requests could have been fixed. The comunity has been told several times now that a lot of what has been pointed out has been changed already, it just hasn't shown up in the updates.Given this thread and most other Tank threads have not gotten a responce from the dev team I am going to guess that it is more an after thought. Not much more with change in the next two days as they fix bug that have been reported.Great effort but I don't think all these changes are going to happen this GU or at least by the release of that GU.

Yimway

08-23-2011, 12:44 PM

<cite>Buzzing@Butcherblock wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>slippery wrote:</cite><blockquote>Prior to changes tomorrow Drunder HM zones are impossible without Brawlers. Statue isn't much better, and if you actually want to execute a strat on Tormax other than burn good luck with a non brawler tank on the dragon. Even on all the other stuff, the difference in the amount of damage a Brawler takes vs a Plate tank is substantial. They just don't get hit. Trying to say otherwise is just ignorant.</blockquote>^^^ This.But Xelgad already knows this.</blockquote>right... but nothing I can see is on the plate to actually fix it.Don't nerf brawlers, I think it is bad A that they can tank raids now. However there should be other options as well. I would like to be considered for tanking based on my skill and not tossed aside because I'm a pali.</blockquote>In the 7 years of this game, when have they _ever_ fixed these issues outside of an expansion release? Given the next xpac is really Velious content 2.0 and not a full expansion, I expect it wont really get addressed to whatever is beyond Velious...I'm already gearing my monk <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Buzzing

08-23-2011, 12:48 PM

<cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Buzzing@Butcherblock wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>slippery wrote:</cite><blockquote>Prior to changes tomorrow Drunder HM zones are impossible without Brawlers. Statue isn't much better, and if you actually want to execute a strat on Tormax other than burn good luck with a non brawler tank on the dragon. Even on all the other stuff, the difference in the amount of damage a Brawler takes vs a Plate tank is substantial. They just don't get hit. Trying to say otherwise is just ignorant.</blockquote>^^^ This.But Xelgad already knows this.</blockquote>right... but nothing I can see is on the plate to actually fix it.Don't nerf brawlers, I think it is bad A that they can tank raids now. However there should be other options as well. I would like to be considered for tanking based on my skill and not tossed aside because I'm a pali.</blockquote>In the 7 years of this game, when have they _ever_ fixed these issues outside of an expansion release? Given the next xpac is really Velious content 2.0 and not a full expansion, I expect it wont really get addressed to whatever is beyond Velious...I'm already gearing my monk <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" /></blockquote>Yeah I have an 80 bruser... Might betray him and start gearing it if stays like it is.Really who is the better tank being based on the content is fine with me... but keeping the expansion and releasing new content as you go may mean it will stay as is.

Gungo

08-23-2011, 02:28 PM

<cite>Bremer wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Gungo@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Buzzing@Butcherblock wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Bremer wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Gungo@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote>Zerkers now have several stoneskin type abilities after gu61. Bruisers have 2 as well (not including the random stoneskin proc abilites which is not reliable to prevent the aoe/death prevents we are discussing).</blockquote>So a shortime buff with a chance to proc stoneskin when you fall under 50 % counts as reliable to prevent aoe/death?</blockquote>and... derailed...</blockquote>He is being purposefully obtuse. Zerks got a 3 sec physical damage immunity this LU. It will prevent any physical aoe/damage they receive. Including any physical damage death effects we were discussing.</blockquote>Gut Roar could block an AE before. Nothing changed. And it only works against physical damage.Against non-physical damage Berserkers have Perfect Counter on a 4 min reuse timer, then DI and than they are out of tools. While a Bruiser can rotate Stone Deaf, Tenacity, Unyielding Resolve, Impenetrable Will (to leave wards intact) and you make it sound as if it was more or less equal.</blockquote>Can you even read we were discussing stone skin type abilities. Gut roar absorbs all physical not just one MELEE attack anymore so it wont just drop off the next auto atk that hits it blocks ANY physical. Did you even read what i wrote half those stone skins listed only block PHYSICAL.Stone deaf is spell only, inner focus is physical only. those are the only 2 stone skins type abilites bruisers get. Just like the 4 stone skin type abilites you get (perfect counter, gut roar, DI, wall of force). You also get 2 death saves(madness and unyielding) instead of tenacity. You also get your own avoidance buff dragoon reflexes like impenetrable/unyielding. You are also comparing stuff that doesnt matter since this expansion is about prevents or die so an avodiance buffs is significantly less useful. You are either being purposefully obtuse or just flat out lying or maybe you just need to learn what other classes including your own has in eq2. If you cant figure out how to cycle at a minimum 6 death prevention abilites as a zerker you might want to play another class other then a fighter.

Regholdain

08-24-2011, 06:17 PM

This may derail this conversation a bit, but has it ever occured to anyone that the tanks have been purposely designed from day one to represent a specific fighter architype, and thusly are not all supposed to be able to handle the same exact content in the same exact way? This is why in some content one tank subclass or another does better than another. It's the way they intend the game to be and is in no way a reflection on "balance". If you give all tanks similar abilities then you are just watering down the pool and making them all the same. While I understand you all want more tanks to choose from for given raids, why is it so bad that one subclass should shine over others in certain content? It makes sense to me that in some situations certain types of fighters would work better than others. This gives the game a certain level of reality and the subclasses some uniqueness.The real question is the balance of the end-game content from expansion to expansion. Why do the devs favor certain classes over others from one exp to the other, and not balance the encounters so that a handful of tanks would have to switch off depending on the encounter they are facing? Or perhaps balance the raid zones so that from one to the other different fighters would be needed within the same expansion's content? I.E. a guard would work awesome on this encounter, but maybe an SK on the next, etc. Maybe there's just not as much variability in the raid mobs as would give all fighters the chance to shine?*edited to clarify*

Kilraah

08-24-2011, 07:37 PM

<cite>Regholdain wrote:</cite><blockquote>This may derail this conversation a bit, but has it ever occured to anyone that the tanks have been purposely designed from day one to represent a specific fighter architype, and thusly are not all supposed to be able to handle the same exact content in the same exact way? This is why in some content one tank subclass or another does better than another. It's the way they intend the game to be and is in no way a reflection on "balance". If you give all tanks similar abilities then you are just watering down the pool and making them all the same. While I understand you all want more tanks to choose from for given raids, why is it so bad that one subclass should shine over others in certain content? It makes sense to me that in some situations certain types of fighters would work better than others. This gives the game a certain level of reality and the subclasses some uniqueness.The real question is the balance of the end-game content from expansion to expansion. Why do the devs favor certain classes over others from one exp to the other, and not balance the encounters so that a handful of tanks would have to switch off depending on the encounter they are facing? Or perhaps balance the raid zones so that from one to the other different fighters would be needed within the same expansion's content? I.E. a guard would work awesome on this encounter, but maybe an SK on the next, etc. Maybe there's just not as much variability in the raid mobs as would give all fighters the chance to shine?*edited to clarify*</blockquote>Fully agree.Kil

Netty

08-25-2011, 03:33 AM

<cite>Gungo@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Bremer wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Gungo@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Buzzing@Butcherblock wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Bremer wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Gungo@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote>Zerkers now have several stoneskin type abilities after gu61. Bruisers have 2 as well (not including the random stoneskin proc abilites which is not reliable to prevent the aoe/death prevents we are discussing).</blockquote>So a shortime buff with a chance to proc stoneskin when you fall under 50 % counts as reliable to prevent aoe/death?</blockquote>and... derailed...</blockquote>He is being purposefully obtuse. Zerks got a 3 sec physical damage immunity this LU. It will prevent any physical aoe/damage they receive. Including any physical damage death effects we were discussing.</blockquote>Gut Roar could block an AE before. Nothing changed. And it only works against physical damage.Against non-physical damage Berserkers have Perfect Counter on a 4 min reuse timer, then DI and than they are out of tools. While a Bruiser can rotate Stone Deaf, Tenacity, Unyielding Resolve, Impenetrable Will (to leave wards intact) and you make it sound as if it was more or less equal.</blockquote>Can you even read we were discussing stone skin type abilities. Gut roar absorbs all physical not just one MELEE attack anymore so it wont just drop off the next auto atk that hits it blocks ANY physical. Did you even read what i wrote half those stone skins listed only block PHYSICAL.Stone deaf is spell only, inner focus is physical only. those are the only 2 stone skins type abilites bruisers get. Just like the 4 stone skin type abilites you get (perfect counter, gut roar, DI, wall of force). You also get 2 death saves(madness and unyielding) instead of tenacity. You also get your own avoidance buff dragoon reflexes like impenetrable/unyielding. You are also comparing stuff that doesnt matter since this expansion is about prevents or die so an avodiance buffs is significantly less useful. You are either being purposefully obtuse or just flat out lying or maybe you just need to learn what other classes including your own has in eq2. If you cant figure out how to cycle at a minimum 6 death prevention abilites as a zerker you might want to play another class other then a fighter.</blockquote>Really? If you have strikethrough immunity ANY 100% avoidance buff is better than stoneskin on physical attacks. I would trade both of the zerk death save for the brawler one in a sec... last what zerks are running with dragoon reflexes? I even respeced it for my guard when we started to hit HM mobs since it dont work 50% of the time... You can say all you want and count up all the tools you want when the fact still is that some tools are better. What is DI btw???

Netty

08-25-2011, 03:47 AM

And manawall drains 10% of the hit absorbed. It might be bad when tanking more than one mob but nice when tanking one. I dont understand some ppl really. The crusaders complaining about this one when i rember i few of them complained about AD that the power dident matter since the buff did so much and so on... If you dont want to spec it dont but dont complain that you dont have any stoneskin stuff then.

Boli32

08-25-2011, 05:36 AM

<cite>Netty wrote:</cite><blockquote>And manawall drains 10% of the hit absorbed. It might be bad when tanking more than one mob but nice when tanking one. I dont understand some ppl really. The crusaders complaining about this one when i rember i few of them complained about AD that the power dident matter since the buff did so much and so on... If you dont want to spec it dont but dont complain that you dont have any stoneskin stuff then.</blockquote>It only works off unmitigated damage so the "double attack for 45k" would take off a *lot* more power than just 4.5k.I speced it once - I have no wish to return to a spec which made every fight a power drain fight and pressing the button when *not* at full power meant you may not have enough power to actually survive the attack.

Bruener

08-25-2011, 10:02 AM

<cite>Boli@Splitpaw wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Netty wrote:</cite><blockquote>And manawall drains 10% of the hit absorbed. It might be bad when tanking more than one mob but nice when tanking one. I dont understand some ppl really. The crusaders complaining about this one when i rember i few of them complained about AD that the power dident matter since the buff did so much and so on... If you dont want to spec it dont but dont complain that you dont have any stoneskin stuff then.</blockquote>It only works off unmitigated damage so the "double attack for 45k" would take off a *lot* more power than just 4.5k.I speced it once - I have no wish to return to a spec which made every fight a power drain fight and pressing the button when *not* at full power meant you may not have enough power to actually survive the attack.</blockquote>Yes. I have seen my power go from about full to complete out by having Manawall absorb one AE. There is a huge difference between slowly losing 50% of your power over tics that a simple feed can keep up with even when you are low on power and having an ability that can chunk out 20k, 30k+ power on a single hit.The ability is a dumb design and it was pointed out in DoV beta that it was...but there was no change. The ability should be completely replaced with something that has no effect on power...or an ability that can be used even on the mass amount of power drain encounters. Like a 10 second physical absorbing ability that costs 50% of current power to cast. Or even spread the power drain among the group. So the 10% drains the power of the group divided equally which would be significantly better since most of the time the tank is oop due to mechanics but the rest of the group has a lot of power.Really though the Crusader Heroic tree endlines have got to be the worst designed endlines out there for raiding period. One is useless in raiding because of the death blow mechanic and not like there is a ton of adds all the time. One is mediocre but nothing special, basically a mediocre encounter hit that can happen to cure if there is a need, and than manawall that is unusable. Hopefully in the upcoming class balancing that is supposedly coming after 61 they address a lot of these issues. There is a lot that they should be looking at thats for sure....WTB AAs in the Crusader tree that aren't designed just for Paladins.

Gungo

08-25-2011, 12:29 PM

<cite>Netty wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite> </cite>Really? If you have strikethrough immunity ANY 100% avoidance buff is better than stoneskin on physical attacks. I would trade both of the zerk death save for the brawler one in a sec... last what zerks are running with dragoon reflexes? I even respeced it for my guard when we started to hit HM mobs since it dont work 50% of the time... You can say all you want and count up all the tools you want when the fact still is that some tools are better. What is DI btw???</blockquote>Aoe kills tanks auto atks do not. I have both and a physical stone skin will absorb that 45-75k physical frontal the avoid buff will not. A physical stone skin will save a tank for a player who knows what they are doing apparently you do not. Unyielding is fien the recast just long, visions has also been improved this update and is up PERMANANTLY. Dragoon reflexes is fine now Strike through was nerfed it works ALOT more reliable now.

Bruener

08-25-2011, 01:21 PM

Netty

08-25-2011, 02:25 PM

<cite>Gungo@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Netty wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite>Really? If you have strikethrough immunity ANY 100% avoidance buff is better than stoneskin on physical attacks. I would trade both of the zerk death save for the brawler one in a sec... last what zerks are running with dragoon reflexes? I even respeced it for my guard when we started to hit HM mobs since it dont work 50% of the time... You can say all you want and count up all the tools you want when the fact still is that some tools are better. What is DI btw???</blockquote>Aoe kills tanks auto atks do not. I have both and a physical stone skin will absorb that 45-75k physical frontal the avoid buff will not. A physical stone skin will save a tank for a player who knows what they are doing apparently you do not. Unyielding is fien the recast just long, visions has also been improved this update and is up PERMANANTLY. Dragoon reflexes is fine now Strike through was nerfed it works ALOT more reliable now.</blockquote>So you want to trade death saves then? oh yes i do know what im talking about. you dont tho. Are you really trying to defend the fact that those buffs are more usefull most of the time with the strikethough immunity? If you avoid getting hit you wont have to waste wards and heals on normal attacks untill that aoe hit... So you are fully healed for that duration and even if you drop down some in health that temp buff should still be running after the aoe. You do infact get a chance to reduce the inc damage aswell from MA:s aswell. Dragoon reflexes isent fine... 100% should be 100% just as it is for you. All tanks buff like this need to have strikethough immunity on them to work as they should. Dragoon reflexes is not fine... Since it dont work on a 100% base. And the fact that you cant cast anything (other than taunts) makes it even worse if it dont do what the buff say. Specing dragoon reflexes for a tank mean you have to waste 22 on stuff you dont need to get one ab that doesen do what it says.. So tell me again whats so good about it?

Netty

08-25-2011, 02:27 PM

Anurra

08-25-2011, 03:01 PM

Hey guys,It makes NO sense to talk about Paladins (and maybe even Shadowknights) in reference to tanks for GU61. This is because the developers absolutely hate Paladins and completely ignore us.From their view point, everything is just fine. I mean, if it wasn't fine, they wouldn't have given us the worthless changes to our AAs for GU 61.If anyone ever mentions ANY reference to Crusaders in this thread from here on out, I will be REPORTING you to the moderators.THANKS!

Boli32

08-25-2011, 05:50 PM

<cite>Lawrs@Permafrost wrote:</cite><blockquote>Hey guys,It makes NO sense to talk about Paladins (and maybe even Shadowknights) in reference to tanks for GU61. This is because the developers absolutely hate Paladins and completely ignore us.From their view point, everything is just fine. I mean, if it wasn't fine, they wouldn't have given us the worthless changes to our AAs for GU 61.If anyone ever mentions ANY reference to Crusaders in this thread from here on out, I will be REPORTING you to the moderators.THANKS!</blockquote>hey you can't report us... pallys got reduced power consumption on our heals and the ability to heal someone who has not been hurt!/sarcasm off