Overcaps

[SacDaddy420]

<p>I heard Haste was getting a big jump in the amount of Flurry it gives overcap....</p><p>Any chance casters can see the same bump in SMA from casting speed?</p>

[Gaige]

<p>Just lol.</p><p>Wasn't a big jump anyway, its still completely useless.</p>

[SacDaddy420]

<p>so why cant they be equal curves if its so "useless and small"?</p>

[Gaige]

<p>Probably because SMA is like 100x more powerful than flurry.  We're talking like 2.8% flurry for every 200 haste over the cap btw.</p><p>I still can't understand how the #1 complainer about MA is also the biggest beggar for SMA.</p>

[SacDaddy420]

<p>no, it isnt.  Compare ranger auto attacks to chanter spell damage and then tell me that SMA is "100x more powerful"</p>

[SacDaddy420]

<p>and why am i the biggest complainer?  Probably b/c we dont get hardly any of it, and you get 600%+</p>

[Gaige]

<p><cite>Sacdaddicus@Guk wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>no, it isnt.  Compare ranger auto attacks to chanter spell damage and then tell me that SMA is "100x more powerful"</p></blockquote><p>Compare troub auto attacks to wizard spell casts~</p><div><p><cite>Sacdaddicus@Guk wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>and why am i the biggest complainer?  Probably b/c we dont get hardly any of it, and you get 600%+</p></blockquote><p>I mean an autoattack that hits for an average of 11k is comparable to ice comet which hits for an average of 408k, or Fusion which hits for an average of 506k.  Even ice spears has a higher average hit than scout auto attack~</p><p>So sure, 40 autoattack hits to equal one ice comet.  SMA isn't overpowered, no way.</p><p>Even with rangers, who you love to complain about, its like 8 auto hits for 1 ice comet~</p><p>Not to mention flurry isn't a guarantee of anything other than one more hit anyway.</p></div>

[Talathion]

<p><cite>Gaige wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Sacdaddicus@Guk wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>no, it isnt.  Compare ranger auto attacks to chanter spell damage and then tell me that SMA is "100x more powerful"</p></blockquote><p>Compare troub auto attacks to wizard spell casts~</p></blockquote><p>if Wizards get SDA from overcapping casting speed then I'm going to make a wizard and be king!  I'll have like 40 spell double attack and not afraid of anything!</p>

[SacDaddy420]

<p><cite>Gaige wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><div><p>I mean an autoattack that hits for an average of 11k is comparable to ice comet which hits for an average of 408k, or Fusion which hits for an average of 506k.  Even ice spears has a higher average hit than scout auto attack~</p><p>So sure, 40 autoattack hits to equal one ice comet.  SMA isn't overpowered, no way.</p><p>Even with rangers, who you love to complain about, its like 8 auto hits for 1 ice comet~</p><p>Not to mention flurry isn't a guarantee of anything other than one more hit anyway.</p></div></blockquote><p>Youre lowballin and you know it.   Our ranger's auto attack is 80k average.  Gauranteed 6 hits a swing thru MA.  50% chance for 3 more.  Thats 720K, and thats just an average.  It been over a million many times.</p><p>so ice comet, with its 22.5 sec reuse- 5 and a half swings</p><p>Fusion?   90 sec reuse.  Care to do the math?</p><p>Why's it always got to be like this between us gaige?  All this thread is about is upping the silly low returns on casting speed.  You cant even lay off for that, huh?  Perhaps they should revert haste back to last weeks formula then.</p>

[Gaige]

<p>Nope.</p><p>I took average hits from the most recent parses posted in the parse threads~</p>

[Gaige]

<p><cite>Sacdaddicus@Guk wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Our ranger's auto attack is 80k average.</p></blockquote><p>Um...</p><p><img src="http://i.imgur.com/7DZE0.png" width="1285" height="811" /></p><p>Its never 80k average, not even on shorter fights which skew the average higher anyway.  Please stop making stuff up to try to help your cause.</p><div><p><cite>Sacdaddicus@Guk wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>50% chance for 3 more. </p></blockquote><p>It isn't possible that your ranger is at 50% flurry.</p><p><div><p><cite>Sacdaddicus@Guk wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Why's it always got to be like this between us gaige? </p></blockquote><p>Probably because you insist on trying to get wizards to be completely overpowered when the DPS classes are the most balanced they have been for multiple expansions.</p></div></p></div>

[SacDaddy420]

<p>I dunno what scout class you're talking about has 11K average hits...</p>

[Gaige]

<p><cite>Sacdaddicus@Guk wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I dunno what scout class you're talking about has 11K average hits...</p></blockquote><p>Oh I dunno either:</p><p><img src="http://i.imgur.com/bWj0X.png" width="799" height="449" /></p><p>Besides not like assassins hit much harder than 11k average:</p><p><img src="http://i.imgur.com/Zk12g.png" width="746" height="766" /></p><p>You going to post anything that is true or just rely on made up numbers and exaggerations in your desperate plead to get the most overpowered stat in the game?</p>

[SacDaddy420]

<p>we both know that fight and we both know that he's hitting alot of things that dont even live long enough to get debuffed.    I am not making up his average auto attack on a fully debuffed, burn mob.  A couple posts in that thread above the parse you just posted, was a Gregor @ 70K.  Why dont you just not even post in a thread I make for once.  You're the one whose always got to fight.  My OP was a simple request.</p>

[SacDaddy420]

<p>and great job posting some bard in pq gear's parse. </p>

[Gaige]

<p><cite>Sacdaddicus@Guk wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>A couple posts in that thread above the parse you just posted, was a Gregor @ 70K.  </p></blockquote><p>So 70k is 80k now in your world?  All of your numbers were put together using this mythical 80k average that no parse he has ever posted has shown.</p><p>I use Vald because of the duration.  The longer the fight goes on the more a true average auto attack hit emerges.  Quit crying about me using actual parses to back up what I'm saying.</p><div><p><cite>Sacdaddicus@Guk wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>My OP was a simple request.</p></blockquote><p>That is not needed.  You're lucky you get any additonal SMA at all.  SOE hates it, its overpowered and it isn't even balanced among mage classes.</p><p>The last thing wizards need is more SMA.  The huge nerfs melees are getting in GU61 should be enough to shut you up for awhile.</p><div><p><cite>Sacdaddicus@Guk wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>and great job posting some bard in pq gear's parse. </p></blockquote><p>You asked for a scout hitting for 11k avg with auto attack.  I posted Kold's Vald with 15k avg in the best gear a scout can possibly get too~</p><p>I love how you totally ignore how Kold has some auto attacks hitting for a whopping 5.3k.  Or your rangers auto attack hitting for a low of 19k.  You exaggerate how good auto attack is, how hard it its for and totally neglect the fact that even with all of this MA and flurry scouts are still barely competitive with good mages.</p><p>OMG 5300 DAMAGE IS SO COMPARABLE TO 800K FROM A DOUBLE ICE COMET~</p></div></div>

[SacDaddy420]

<p>done editing your posts so i can reply yet?</p>

[Gaige]

<p>I'd rather edit and be factual than make up numbers like you and hope SOE takes pity on the fact that you can't beat your ranger~</p>

[Talathion]

<p>DPS Mod needs to turn into Autoattack Modifier after you get 200. <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

[SacDaddy420]

<p>oh ok i see.  well then since that first kill Gregor is like 8 minutes longer, its a true assumption of average hit, correct?</p><p>lets use 70K.  Why thats 420K damage every 4 secs!  He's at I believe 47% chance to Flurry.  630K.  average~</p>

[Talathion]

<p><cite>Sacdaddicus@Guk wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>oh ok i see.  well then since that first kill Gregor is like 8 minutes longer, its a true assumption of average hit, correct?</p><p>lets use 70K.  Why thats 420K damage every 4 secs!  He's at I believe 47% chance to Flurry.  630K.  average~</p></blockquote><p>Thats cuz Predators are a little top notch compared to other scouts.</p>

[SacDaddy420]

<p>why are you even here tuor?</p>

[Talathion]

<p><cite>Sacdaddicus@Guk wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>why are you even here tuor?</p></blockquote><p>I thought it was a troll thread :/</p><p>Wait your serious?</p>

[Gaige]

<p><cite>Sacdaddicus@Guk wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p> He's at I believe 47% chance to Flurry.</p></blockquote><p>Nope.</p><p><div><p><cite>Sacdaddicus@Guk wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>lets use 70K.  Why thats 420K damage every 4 secs!</p></blockquote><p>YOU CAN'T DO THAT.  You're so thick headed.  The odds of getting every hit to be 70k or more for the amount of hits you're talking about are like extremely small.</p><p>It's more like 20k, 25k, 35k, 65k, 60k, 50k = 255k not 420k - and even 255k is on the high side.</p></div></p>

[SacDaddy420]

<p>sure about that cochise?~    I know its in the upper 40s in raid but I guess I'll find out exactly just for you cupcake~</p><p>/sigh~</p><p>Anyway I'd like devs to consider upping the infintesimal amount of SMA mages will get from having casting speed overcap.   TY, have a nice day.</p>

[Gaige]

<p>I'm positive he doesn't have 47% in raid.  I'd be impressed if it was upper 40s tbh, if it is he has to be spec'ing for it and have like every flurry buff.</p>

[SacDaddy420]

<p><cite>Gaige wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>lets use 70K.  Why thats 420K damage every 4 secs!</p><div><p>YOU CAN'T DO THAT.  You're so thick headed.  The odds of getting every hit to be 70k or more for the amount of hits you're talking about are like extremely small.</p><p>It's more like 20k, 25k, 35k, 65k, 60k, 50k = 255k not 420k - and even 255k is on the high side.</p></div></blockquote><p>Uh..~   Are we looking at the same thing?~   I'm talking about the average crushing hits on a 27 min first kill of Gregor.  Why dont you link that one, for everyone to see.   Since duration makes true averages arise (your own words)~</p><p>~</p>

[Gaige]

<p><cite>Sacdaddicus@Guk wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Anyway I'd like devs to consider upping the infintesimal amount of SMA mages will get from having casting speed overcap.   TY, have a nice day.</p></blockquote><p>You already get a lot of SMA:</p><div><p><cite>Xelgad wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Haste to Flurry:</p><ul><li>200: 0%</li><li>300: 1.46%</li><li>500: 2.87%</li><li>700: 4.2%</li><li>900: 5.5%</li><li>1200: 6.73%</li></ul><p>Ability Casting Speed to Doublecast:</p><ul><li>100: 0%</li><li>200: 0.75%</li><li>300: 1.5%</li><li>400: 2.25%</li><li>500: 3%</li></ul></blockquote></div><p>I'd say you have nothing to complain about since SMA is so much better than Flurry~</p>

[SacDaddy420]

<p>~</p>

[Gaige]

<p><div><p><cite>daray wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Wizards aren't excessively far behind atm. As someone in this thread said, balance between the top 4 dps classes is actually closer than it has been in a while</p></blockquote><p>See this?  Its a wizard who is better/smarter than you making sense.  Ever see him ask for more SMA?  Ya, I haven't either.</p><p>Just go away and quit posting these nonsense threads.  GU61 is full of serious bugs and issues, no one needs to see 18 threads of you whining about wizards being so woefully far behind with more and more pleading for SMA.</p></div></p>

[Buzzing]

<p><cite>Gaige wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Sacdaddicus@Guk wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Anyway I'd like devs to consider upping the infintesimal amount of SMA mages will get from having casting speed overcap.   TY, have a nice day.</p></blockquote><p>You already get a lot of SMA:</p><div><p><cite>Xelgad wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Haste to Flurry:</p><ul><li>200: 0%</li><li>300: 1.46%</li><li>500: 2.87%</li><li>700: 4.2%</li><li>900: 5.5%</li><li>1200: 6.73%</li></ul><p>Ability Casting Speed to Doublecast:</p><ul><li>100: 0%</li><li>200: 0.75%</li><li>300: 1.5%</li><li>400: 2.25%</li><li>500: 3%</li></ul></blockquote></div><p>I'd say you have nothing to complain about since SMA is so much better than Flurry~</p></blockquote><p>not sure why I even took the time to read this thread...</p><p>none the less</p><p>at 500 you actually get more SMA the you do Flurry using there corisponding stats (haste for flurry and casting speed for double cast)</p>

[SacDaddy420]

<p>I never said or implied I was -excessively- far behind anyone.   You do that.</p><p>~</p>

[Ge'Sar]

<p><cite>Gaige wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Probably because SMA is like 100x more powerful than flurry.  We're talking like 2.8% flurry for every 200 haste over the cap btw.</p><p>I still can't understand how the #1 complainer about MA is also the biggest beggar for SMA.</p></blockquote><p>Compared to 1000 for 3.5%... ya those are almost equitable.</p><p>And how can you not understand it, both are ways to equal the percieved inbalance.</p>

[Ge'Sar]

<p><cite>Gaige wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Sacdaddicus@Guk wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>no, it isnt.  Compare ranger auto attacks to chanter spell damage and then tell me that SMA is "100x more powerful"</p></blockquote><p>Compare troub auto attacks to wizard spell casts~</p></blockquote><p>Why would we compare t1 dps to the most abused class in the game atm? Nothing like scewing your stats.   Let's compare it to assasins and rangers, our scout t1's.</p>

[daray]

With regards to spell haste > SDA conversion, the numbers are negligible enough that no mage is going to overly care to chase spell haste for the purposes of SDA. I'm sure spell haste will just be one of those stats that is "there", but unless it ends up being itemized in significant quantities (possible), this conversion rate probably wont factor much into any min/maxing decisions. Anyway, I'm not really inspired by the addition of overcap conversions - there are other ways to provide item growth while leaving certain stats at an acceptable level across complete gear sets. Certain of these overcap conversions are paving the way for these stats to be itemized in much higher quantities on gear anyway, and that also makes many (older) AA choices kind of laughable. SOE needs to redesign certain additive "fixed number" AAs (like spell haste in this case) to be multiplicative of current values so that AAs also "scale" with the game as it grows. And this methodology could be applied to many AAs across all classes. But I guess that is a debate for another time.

[Gaige]

<p>I brought up troubs because he insists on bringing up rangers vs chanters.  No one autoattacks like they do, so balancing everything based on them is silly~</p>

[Ge'Sar]

<p><cite>Gaige wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Sacdaddicus@Guk wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Anyway I'd like devs to consider upping the infintesimal amount of SMA mages will get from having casting speed overcap.   TY, have a nice day.</p></blockquote><p>You already get a lot of SMA:</p><div><p><cite>Xelgad wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Haste to Flurry:</p><ul><li>200: 0%</li><li>300: 1.46%</li><li>500: 2.87%</li><li>700: 4.2%</li><li>900: 5.5%</li><li>1200: 6.73%</li></ul><p>Ability Casting Speed to Doublecast:</p><ul><li>100: 0%</li><li>200: 0.75%</li><li>300: 1.5%</li><li>400: 2.25%</li><li>500: 3%</li></ul></blockquote></div><p>I'd say you have nothing to complain about since SMA is so much better than Flurry~</p></blockquote><p>Wait, these aren't the original numbers are they? damnit, I missed a dev post *goes hunting*</p>

[Gaige]

<p>They are but the flurry barely changed, and again SMA is already more powerful than flurry anyway~  If anything they probably increased the flurry to make it more inline with the SMA you could already acquire.</p>

[Ge'Sar]

<p><cite>Gaige wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>They are but the flurry barely changed, and again SMA is already more powerful than flurry anyway~  If anything they probably increased the flurry to make it more inline with the SMA you could already acquire.</p></blockquote><p>Somehow I had it my head it was half what you just posted (and now see in the original thread).</p><p>You're certainly right that SMA is more powerful than flurry.   That doesn't mean these curves aren't idiotic.  There are much more logical ways to do the overcaps than soe has done.    It feels like a meaningless 'buff'.  A placebo for the masses that want improvement.</p>

[Kruschev2086]

I would like to question one thing. Itemization. How much MA does your Kael/Rygorr geared scout have pre-adorn? How much cast speed does a keal/rygorr caster get? Forget the buffs from groups. Forget the self buffs. Forget the adorns. Unless serious cast speed is put onto gear, no caster will have those kinds of cast speeds.

[Ge'Sar]

<p><cite>Kruschev2086 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote>I would like to question one thing. Itemization. How much MA does your Kael/Rygorr geared scout have pre-adorn? How much cast speed does a keal/rygorr caster get? Forget the buffs from groups. Forget the self buffs. Forget the adorns. Unless serious cast speed is put onto gear, no caster will have those kinds of cast speeds.</blockquote><p>Which is one of several reasons this whole thing is just dumb</p>

[Gaige]

<p><cite>Kruschev2086 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote>Unless serious cast speed is put onto gear, no caster will have those kinds of cast speeds.</blockquote><p>Not like I'm walking around with 1200 haste either~</p>

[Kruschev2086]

<p>In a group with an SK as an illy, running Perpetuality, I can hit a whole 190% cast speed when death march is up, with a troub in group.  I have a baseline of 61% cast speed.  My cb/potency averages to around 172% to give you an idea of my gear.  Some x4 EM, some x4 hm stuff. </p><p>Spell MA has been in game since RoK (wizard myth), perhaps earlier, but I wasn't playing at that time.  Only now are we seeing any sort of actual boost to those values.  Sure, TC with the SF AAs and their whole 5%.  10% for necro pets.  It is a rediculously small boost at that.</p><p>HM rings grant a full 1% SMA on a set bonus.  Is it really that big of a deal to want a small boost?  Sac doesn't seem to be asking for the same SMA as a scout has MA.</p><p>Consider this if you will.  Scouts in SF had how much MA in HM gear?  Now how much do they have in HM?  How much did you have in TSO?  There has been a steady progression of your multi-attack, and not the same for SMA.  Are they the same mechanic?  No.  Does this mean SMA should be a wet dream of casters, never to be seen in realistic amounts in game?</p>

[slippery]

While I generally don't agree that Wizards are hurting or need help, this curve is pretty bad. You are talking 100 cast speed over cap for roughly .3% increase in dps