Shared pet stats and buffs [Archive] - EQ2 Forum Archive @ EQ2Wire

Trensharo

08-18-2011, 03:16 AM

Xalmat is wrong.If a buff adds to your visible combat stats (Crit, Casting Speed, Reuse, SDA, Pot, CB, etc.), the pet will also get the increase. It uses your stats as a base (and it's AAs add on top of what you have).So, for TC, the pet gets 5% SDA. Part of the problem the Devs had with the SDA AA is the amount of SDA a Summoner could stack onto a pet with AA+Adornments+TC. 23.8%.Synergism with CB Focus: Pet gets the CB even tho it's cast on you.UT: Pet gets everything but the DoT ticks (Non-Visible Addition).Pet won't get buffs that add % Spell Damage, but those are typically group buffs.There are a few stats that aren't shared, though (like STA and Resists).

Lethe5683

08-18-2011, 03:19 AM

<cite>Trenshero@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>Xalmat is wrong.</blockquote>Depends on the buff I think.

Trensharo

08-18-2011, 03:21 AM

Yep, edited my post.

Elf_Queen

08-18-2011, 08:26 PM

Is there a link where the devs say this somewhere? wouldnt mind reading it...seems to be a bit of confusion for people. I would love to have some solid facts to go by. Not that I dont believe you but the conj I group with would be happy to know I can cast TC on him and not just the pet, he asked me to just TC his pet before but if I can in fact TC him AND it works on the pet it would be good news!

Oink

08-18-2011, 08:59 PM

<cite>Gems@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote> Is there a link where the devs say this somewhere? wouldnt mind reading it...seems to be a bit of confusion for people. I would love to have some solid facts to go by. Not that I dont believe you but the conj I group with would be happy to know I can cast TC on him and not just the pet, he asked me to just TC his pet before but if I can in fact TC him AND it works on the pet it would be good news!</blockquote>He can just confirm it himself. Have him possess minion, look at his pet's casting and reuse times, and then do so again with Time Compression on him and see they do not change.There are specific stats that are shared; "Spell casting time" is not one, while "Ability casting time" is. There are lists of which ones share and which don't.

Banditman

08-19-2011, 10:16 AM

Don't look at the pet's stats through Possess Minion, look at the actual abilities themselves. Did the cast time go down? Did the reuse go down? There you go. Possess Minion doesn't always give you a good picture just looking at the persona screen, but the abilities are usually an accurate barometer.

Maevianiu

08-19-2011, 08:49 PM

NOTE: Any buffs that affect a group/raid do not transfer from the owner to the pet (that would be doubling up) but single target ones that grant the stats below should go to both the owner and the pet when cast on the owner.The following stats are copied from the owner to the pet:Attributes, potency, ability mod, crit bonus (pvp and pve), crit chance, toughness, doublecast chance (pve and pvp), ability casting speed, Ability Recovery Speed, Ability Reuse Speed, Spell Reuse Speed.Also, when testing with possessing a pet, be sure to cast some other buff on the pet as well to force the pet's stats to get resent to your client. So cast the buff on the owner that you want to test, and some other mitigation buff or something like that on the pet to force the pet's stats to update.If you find any of these working kinda wonky post about it on the forums and we can look into it when we get a chance.

Xalmat

08-19-2011, 11:03 PM

<cite>Maevianiu wrote:</cite><blockquote>NOTE: Any buffs that affect a group/raid do not transfer from the owner to the pet (that would be doubling up) but single target ones that grant the stats below should go to both the owner and the pet when cast on the owner.The following stats are copied from the owner to the pet:Attributes, potency, ability mod, crit bonus (pvp and pve), crit chance, toughness, doublecast chance (pve and pvp), ability casting speed, Ability Recovery Speed, Ability Reuse Speed, Spell Reuse Speed.Also, when testing with possessing a pet, be sure to cast some other buff on the pet as well to force the pet's stats to get resent to your client. So cast the buff on the owner that you want to test, and some other mitigation buff or something like that on the pet to force the pet's stats to update.If you find any of these working kinda wonky post about it on the forums and we can look into it when we get a chance.</blockquote>Thanks for the information.The only attribute that carries over for Summoners is the Summoner's INT, and even then it doesn't carry over for power pool calculations, only the pet's damage output.Summoner's STA does nothing to the pet, the pet itself needs to have its STA buffed for it to gain HP.The following stats need to be included as well in the future, since they matter just as much:HP and StaminaPhysical, Elemental, Arcane, Noxious MitigationDPS ModHaste ModFlurry ModMulti-Attack ModAE ModStrikethroughAccuracy(Spell auto-attack stats should convert to melee auto-attack stats for the pet)Crushing, Slashing, PiercingDisruption, Subjugation, Ordination, MinistrationFocusDefense, Parry

Raviel

08-19-2011, 11:26 PM

physical mitigation and resists should carry over as well imo, would go a long way in preventing pet 1shots

QQ-Fatman

08-20-2011, 12:50 AM

Please fix pet one shot problem for raiders (especially for chanters).Please also fix limited pets too (they need to share stats.)Thank you!!!

Banditman

08-20-2011, 03:23 AM

If it doesn't one shot me, it shouldn't one shot my pet. It really is that simple.

Arynai

08-20-2011, 05:54 AM

Enchanted Vigor does not transfer.

Rijacki

08-20-2011, 12:10 PM

<cite>Xalmat wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Maevianiu wrote:</cite><blockquote>NOTE: Any buffs that affect a group/raid do not transfer from the owner to the pet (that would be doubling up) but single target ones that grant the stats below should go to both the owner and the pet when cast on the owner.The following stats are copied from the owner to the pet:Attributes, potency, ability mod, crit bonus (pvp and pve), crit chance, toughness, doublecast chance (pve and pvp), ability casting speed, Ability Recovery Speed, Ability Reuse Speed, Spell Reuse Speed.Also, when testing with possessing a pet, be sure to cast some other buff on the pet as well to force the pet's stats to get resent to your client. So cast the buff on the owner that you want to test, and some other mitigation buff or something like that on the pet to force the pet's stats to update.If you find any of these working kinda wonky post about it on the forums and we can look into it when we get a chance.</blockquote>Thanks for the information.The only attribute that carries over for Summoners is the Summoner's INT, and even then it doesn't carry over for power pool calculations, only the pet's damage output.Summoner's STA does nothing to the pet, the pet itself needs to have its STA buffed for it to gain HP.The following stats need to be included as well in the future, since they matter just as much:HP and StaminaPhysical, Elemental, Arcane, Noxious MitigationDPS ModHaste ModFlurry ModMulti-Attack ModAE ModStrikethroughAccuracy(Spell auto-attack stats should convert to melee auto-attack stats for the pet)Crushing, Slashing, PiercingDisruption, Subjugation, Ordination, MinistrationFocusDefense, Parry</blockquote>and Crit Mit, that needs to cover the pet, too.

Xalmat

08-20-2011, 02:29 PM

Last I checked, Crit Mit has transferred to the pet since TSO. Does it no longer do so?

Oink

08-20-2011, 06:30 PM

TSO & SF pet crit mit was based on your int, now it's just shared directly across.

Xalmat

08-20-2011, 10:40 PM

<cite>Oink@Blackburrow wrote:</cite><blockquote>TSO & SF pet crit mit was based on your int, now it's just shared directly across.</blockquote>Only partially true. Crit Mit from INT was, at most, 10%. The rest came directly from gear.

Nrgy

08-22-2011, 02:13 PM

<cite>Maevianiu wrote:</cite><blockquote>NOTE: Any buffs that affect a group/raid do not transfer from the owner to the pet (that would be doubling up) but single target ones that grant the stats below should go to both the owner and the pet when cast on the owner.The following stats are copied from the owner to the pet:Attributes, potency, ability mod, crit bonus (pvp and pve), crit chance, toughness, doublecast chance (pve and pvp), ability casting speed, Ability Recovery Speed, Ability Reuse Speed, Spell Reuse Speed.Also, when testing with possessing a pet, be sure to cast some other buff on the pet as well to force the pet's stats to get resent to your client. So cast the buff on the owner that you want to test, and some other mitigation buff or something like that on the pet to force the pet's stats to update.If you find any of these working kinda wonky post about it on the forums and we can look into it when we get a chance.</blockquote>I would have though it would have been FAR easier to scale the pet based 100% on the summoners stats and transfer EVERY stat over rather then trying to have some stats inate to the pet and having some other stats transfer over through the shared mechanics.If Pets shared all stats then they would be easier to both balance and manage. Then any AA's which enhanced the pet would have a scalable base that could be adjusted more easily and more directly. Having a single point of base stats, the summoners, rather then having a mixed base, some from the summoners and some from the Pets, makes balancing more difficult on the mechanics side. Doubling stats on the pet becasue the summoners has a buff that applies to the pet as well is messy.If the Pet ONLY recieved its abilities, health, power and other attributes from the summoner and no buffs actually applied to the pet directly would make it easier on everyone; the players, the Developers, the buffers, etc ...

Haciv

08-23-2011, 12:46 AM

Luhai

08-23-2011, 07:23 AM

Are you seriously trying to get a groupwide(!) damage proc nerfed that might top the zonewide parse once in a blue moon?

Banditman

08-23-2011, 12:11 PM

If ET is topping your zonewide, you have some terribad players involved there. Seriously.In fact, ET is decidedly inferior to Frigid Gift when less than 3 mobs are involved.

Bremer

08-23-2011, 12:24 PM

<cite>Banditman wrote:</cite><blockquote>If ET is topping your zonewide, you have some terribad players involved there. Seriously.In fact, ET is decidedly inferior to Frigid Gift when less than 3 mobs are involved.</blockquote>You've never fought the boars in the Drunder x2, ET rocks there.

Haciv

08-23-2011, 02:51 PM

<cite>Luhai wrote:</cite><blockquote>Are you seriously trying to get a groupwide(!) damage proc nerfed that might top the zonewide parse once in a blue moon?</blockquote> No, I don't want to get the proc nerfed. I want to get pets nerfed so they can't double and triple up the dps from it for the summoner (and anyone with a shared stats pet).<cite>Banditman wrote:</cite><blockquote>If ET is topping your zonewide, you have some terribad players involved there. Seriously.In fact, ET is decidedly inferior to Frigid Gift when less than 3 mobs are involved.</blockquote> I have some 500K parses where ET was over 120K of the damage. Even on near 300k zonewides from current tier x4 zones it can top the damage list. You're doing it wrong.---------------------------------------------Here's the problem I see. If summoners are balanced around being able to double and triple dip buffs, then they are weak when they dont have them. If they are balanced around not having the procs, then they become overpowered when they have them. There needs to be some sort of in-between imho. Balancing a class that gets double or triple benefit from procs (such as summoners) vs a class that only gets a single benefit (such as sorcs) seems to be hard to do given the varying playstyles in the game.. I think nerfing damage procs from triggering for the caster and the pet while BOOSTING your personal (or maybe pet) spell damage would be a step in the right direction to a balance for summoners in a solo, group, and raid environment. Overall, I'm not looking to nerf summoners into the ground, and if you don't understand what I'm saying and where I'm coming from then please don't bother replying. I think they should be less reliant on needing damage procs and have more damage coming from summoner (or pet) casted spells.

Luhai

08-23-2011, 03:03 PM

<cite>Haciv wrote:</cite><blockquote> I want to get pets nerfed</blockquote>And this is the part where noone takes you serious anymore. Calling for nerfs on other classes is just pathetic.Everyone has seen THAT ONE parse where THIS ONE person has done a lot of damage. How about we get manaburn nerfed since I'm pretty sure I've seen a wizard once topping the parse with it?Every bloody class in EQ2 nowadays relies on procs for DPS. If you're specifically trying to get our pets nerfed because of 1 situational proc that even YOU benefit from you're taking the totally wrong approach and should just shut up.

Haciv

08-23-2011, 03:19 PM

<cite>Luhai wrote:</cite><blockquote>How about we get manaburn nerfed since I'm pretty sure I've seen a wizard once topping the parse with it?</blockquote>Nerf it all you want, it's not even in my top 5 for zonewides. Besides, it's kind of hard to nerf a spell that doesn't even benefit from crit bonus, has a 5 sec cast with a 5 min reuse, and takes all your power when you cast it.

Haciv

08-23-2011, 03:24 PM

<cite>Luhai wrote:</cite><blockquote>Every bloody class in EQ2 nowadays relies on procs for DPS.</blockquote>I don't rely on group / damage procs as my main source of DPS. I rely on my class damage spells, it's a novel idea I know.

Banditman

08-23-2011, 03:43 PM

<cite>Bremer wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Banditman wrote:</cite><blockquote>If ET is topping your zonewide, you have some terribad players involved there. Seriously.In fact, ET is decidedly inferior to Frigid Gift when less than 3 mobs are involved.</blockquote>You've never fought the boars in the Drunder x2, ET rocks there.</blockquote>Reading is FUNdamental. I said, very clearly, when less than 3 mobs are involved.Those boars very clearly are more than three mobs.Yes, ET is a nice piece of utility against trash mobs. Against named mobs, Frigid Gift is far superior.

LardLord

08-23-2011, 03:50 PM

<cite>Banditman wrote:</cite><blockquote>Yes, ET is a nice piece of utility against trash mobs. Against named mobs, Frigid Gift is far superior.</blockquote>Wait until Elements of War (at least the HM)...there's at least one awesome AE fight (not trash).

Bremer

08-23-2011, 04:10 PM

<cite>Banditman wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Bremer wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Banditman wrote:</cite><blockquote>If ET is topping your zonewide, you have some terribad players involved there. Seriously.In fact, ET is decidedly inferior to Frigid Gift when less than 3 mobs are involved.</blockquote>You've never fought the boars in the Drunder x2, ET rocks there.</blockquote>Reading is FUNdamental.</blockquote>You said players were bad if ET was doing topping your zonewide, I gave an example where it is not the case. I didn't intended to imply that it is very good buff. On small encounters the damage is bad, as you said.

Banditman

08-23-2011, 04:46 PM

It doesn't top ZW, even there. Even in the x4 versions, it doesn't top ZW.

Haciv

08-23-2011, 05:05 PM

<cite>Banditman wrote:</cite><blockquote>It doesn't top ZW, even there. Even in the x4 versions, it doesn't top ZW.</blockquote>It tops it in x4 Sullons ZW, that's for sure. Here's Necro vs Lock both in the same group as an example:<img src="http://img718.imageshack.us/img718/1125/etox.jpg" width="772" height="1120" />

Sigmaz01

08-24-2011, 12:37 AM

Vicah is that you <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" />? btw i had diety spells up on that which is why ET was crazy on most trash fights! Also consider vicah that these new drunder zones have alot of trash that are linked encounters meaning uber ZWs! So yea in places like kael or kraytocs its really not all that good consider trash does not live all that long. Oh and yea the group consisted of a necro, warlock, and a conjy so thats double ETs <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> and we like to time our ETs as well! Your group only had 1x summoner a conjy.

Haciv

08-24-2011, 01:14 AM

<cite>Sigmaz01 wrote:</cite><blockquote>Vicah is that you <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" />? btw i had diety spells up on that which is why ET was crazy on most trash fights! Also consider vicah that these new drunder zones have alot of trash that are linked encounters meaning uber ZWs! So yea in places like kael or kraytocs its really not all that good consider trash does not live all that long. Oh and yea the group consisted of a necro, warlock, and a conjy so thats double ETs <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" /> and we like to time our ETs as well! Your group only had 1x summoner a conjy.</blockquote>Here's the most recent Kraytoc I can find. I think you were in my group. For a zone where it's "not all that good", it sure seems to still rock out a very large portion of your dps (because you can double dip the procs).This not only illustrates how many procs you are getting but also shows a good ET vs Frigid Gift comparison.<img src="http://img14.imageshack.us/img14/4144/etox5.jpg" width="774" height="639" />

Sigmaz01

08-24-2011, 01:43 AM

That is another double summoner group bro.

Haciv

08-24-2011, 02:32 AM

<cite>Sigmaz01 wrote:</cite><blockquote>That is another double summoner group bro.</blockquote>The issue isn't the proc. It's the fact that anyone with a pet can get twice the benefit. Classes balanced on other classes damage procs seems broken to me and I think the parses reflect that.

Banditman

08-24-2011, 10:00 AM

When you put 2 Summoners in the, shockingly, it makes ET look a lot better. Probably because it is up twice as often. Or something like that.

Gaarysal

08-24-2011, 10:41 AM

<cite>Banditman wrote:</cite><blockquote>When you put 2 Summoners in the, shockingly, it makes ET look a lot better. Probably because it is up twice as often. Or something like that.</blockquote>You are missing the point. Both sets of parses are from 2 people, a sorc and a summoner IN THE SAME GROUP. There can be sorc + 5 summoners it does not matter. You look at the number of procs that etox, frigid gift, curse of darkness, pom, vc ect did and the summoner is proccing it more than double or tripple (if the sol ro blessing pet is used) than the sorc. This adds up to insane amounts of dps from the same temp buffs that should be applying equally to everyone in the group, sure some classes will cast faster and get a few more procs and it will do a bit more dps. I think what he's trying to get at is it's not fair that just because your class has a pet it automatically gets 8k+ more dps from one proc buff. And don't say its a benefit or "feature" of the summoner/shaman/chanter classes because anyone with sol ro, innoruk, and a few other deities can exploit an otherwise crappy blessing to pump out massive dps. Not to mention a templar hammer or ranger hawk.Having a class's dps "balanced" by relying on group procs is just terrible mechanics especially in group and solo play.

Banditman

08-24-2011, 11:16 AM

Now look at the other side of the coin. Personal procs are NOT proc'ed by our pets.So, while I am healing, curing, death preventing, positioning, buffing and otherwise managing my pet, I am not casting anything that will trigger any personal procs (or group procs for that matter) I may have. Pet management, for better or for worse, is a huge part of our game.I also don't see Sorcerers losing 50 - 60% of their DPS to an AE . . . over and over and over and over. Happens to Summoners all the time. Worse, it's an effective 100% loss, because we must then spend time doing nothing while we resummon a dead pet or continue at 40% effectiveness.Yes, in trivial situations, where everything goes right, we have an advantage that can sometimes be stronger for us than for other classes. SO WHAT? We have NUMEROUS disadvantages that other classes absolutely do not share.

Sigmaz01

08-24-2011, 12:04 PM

Well if you dont want summoner pets to gain group buffs in such then their damage will need to be double or tripled and they also need to have way more HP!

Haciv

08-24-2011, 01:40 PM

<cite>Sigmaz01 wrote:</cite><blockquote>Well if you dont want summoner pets to gain group buffs in such then their damage will need to be double or tripled and they also need to have way more HP!</blockquote>Yeah, I'm with ya on the HP. They should have more HP than what they have now, though Soulburn may have to be tweaked thereafter.If you read my previous posts, I clearly stated that Summoner (or Pet) damage should be increased to compensate for the loss of group damage procs (though you're way off on double or triple, lol). I also think that the Necro single target stun should be fixed to have damage, and I also think that Dooming Darkness should be fixed as well. /shockEdit: Actually, if you look at the Sullon's ZW I posted and cut the DPS you got from group temps by 2/3 you STILL would of beat the Warlock on the AE heavy zone. Maybe I was wrong thinking you needed anything extra to compensate afterall. <cite>Banditman wrote:</cite><blockquote>I also don't see Sorcerers losing 50 - 60% of their DPS to an AE . . . over and over and over and over. </blockquote>You're right, I lose 100% of my DPS to an AE. Do you even raid on any sort of competitive level? Sorc's die a lot to AE's on any mob that matters because of the range on Fusion, Blast of Dev, & T-Clap. Necro's can Bloodpact their pet permanantly, and Conj's have an AE immune proc from their myth that's up more often than not. Sorc's lose more DPS from deaths on AE's than Summoners (at least Necro's).<cite>Banditman wrote:</cite><blockquote>Personal procs are NOT proc'ed by our pets. </blockquote>Thank goodness. Neither should group & raid damage procs.

Banditman

08-24-2011, 02:44 PM

I raid all the time cowboy, do you?If you knew jack about Summoner classes you would know that Conjurors do not have any sort of meaningful AE immunity. Sure, we have a Mythical proc . . . that only procs on hostile spells. Which as I explained before, is not something that a Conjuror is doing consistently.Sounds to me like a Wizzy got spanked by a skilled Summoner and is salty.

dotdotdot

08-24-2011, 03:20 PM

I'd be curious to see what the chanter parsed in those double summoner group. Comparing a sorc (who has longest cast times) to a summoner (faster cast time + two beings casting) with a 100% proc is always going to give the edge to the summoner. Simply put, they can get more casts in during the time the proc is up, so of course they're going to get more hits. And having the pet also casting in that time adds to the number of procs.Chanters, who cast fastest and also have a pet (that doesn't compare dps wise to a summoner pet), would be a much more fair comparison to make if you want to check proc hits.

Trensharo

08-24-2011, 04:06 PM

I've never seen ET proc that high with only one summoner in a party in Kraytocs or Kael instances.That being said, I've never put much weight in ZW parses, anyways so /shrugs/

Trensharo

08-24-2011, 04:22 PM

<cite>Gaarysal@Permafrost wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Banditman wrote:</cite><blockquote>When you put 2 Summoners in the, shockingly, it makes ET look a lot better. Probably because it is up twice as often. Or something like that.</blockquote>You are missing the point. Both sets of parses are from 2 people, a sorc and a summoner IN THE SAME GROUP. There can be sorc + 5 summoners it does not matter. You look at the number of procs that etox, frigid gift, curse of darkness, pom, vc ect did and the summoner is proccing it more than double or tripple (if the sol ro blessing pet is used) than the sorc. This adds up to insane amounts of dps from the same temp buffs that should be applying equally to everyone in the group, sure some classes will cast faster and get a few more procs and it will do a bit more dps. I think what he's trying to get at is it's not fair that just because your class has a pet it automatically gets 8k+ more dps from one proc buff. And don't say its a benefit or "feature" of the summoner/shaman/chanter classes because anyone with sol ro, innoruk, and a few other deities can exploit an otherwise crappy blessing to pump out massive dps. Not to mention a templar hammer or ranger hawk.Having a class's dps "balanced" by relying on group procs is just terrible mechanics especially in group and solo play.</blockquote>I hardly get to read such idiocy. You've made my day.

Haciv

08-24-2011, 04:24 PM

<cite>Banditman wrote:</cite><blockquote>I raid all the time cowboy, do you?If you knew jack about Summoner classes you would know that Conjurors do not have any sort of meaningful AE immunity. Sure, we have a Mythical proc . . . that only procs on hostile spells. Which as I explained before, is not something that a Conjuror is doing consistently.Sounds to me like a Wizzy got spanked by a skilled Summoner and is salty.</blockquote>YEEHAW Cowboy!Necro beating a Warlocks on AE fights is what I originally showed. Somehow you equated this to Conjurors and Wizards.How does depending on other people to provide you with damage procs have anything to do with "skill"? Next thing you'll say is that Dirge auto attack takes skill.<cite>dotdotdot wrote:</cite><blockquote>I'd be curious to see what the chanter parsed in those double summoner group. Comparing a sorc (who has longest cast times) to a summoner (faster cast time + two beings casting) with a 100% proc is always going to give the edge to the summoner. Simply put, they can get more casts in during the time the proc is up, so of course they're going to get more hits. And having the pet also casting in that time adds to the number of procs.Chanters, who cast fastest and also have a pet (that doesn't compare dps wise to a summoner pet), would be a much more fair comparison to make if you want to check proc hits.</blockquote> Here's the chanter from that group iirc.<img src="http://img217.imageshack.us/img217/7603/etox6.jpg" width="778" height="581" /><cite>Trenshero@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>I've never seen ET proc that high with only one summoner in a party in Kraytocs or Kael instances.That being said, I've never put much weight in ZW parses, anyways so /shrugs/</blockquote> Ok... you don't put much weight in ZW's. Even though that show's a full picture of named + trash.How bout just a trash parse?<img src="http://img825.imageshack.us/img825/1008/etox4.jpg" width="776" height="580" />Maybe a named parse where 4 of the top 6 damage is damage procs being double dipped?<img src="http://img853.imageshack.us/img853/9697/sullon1.jpg" width="769" height="317" />

Trensharo

08-24-2011, 04:36 PM

<cite>Haciv wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Sigmaz01 wrote:</cite><blockquote>Well if you dont want summoner pets to gain group buffs in such then their damage will need to be double or tripled and they also need to have way more HP!</blockquote>Yeah, I'm with ya on the HP. They should have more HP than what they have now, though Soulburn may have to be tweaked thereafter.If you read my previous posts, I clearly stated that Summoner (or Pet) damage should be increased to compensate for the loss of group damage procs (though you're way off on double or triple, lol). I also think that the Necro single target stun should be fixed to have damage, and I also think that Dooming Darkness should be fixed as well. /shockEdit: Actually, if you look at the Sullon's ZW I posted and cut the DPS you got from group temps by 2/3 you STILL would of beat the Warlock on the AE heavy zone. Maybe I was wrong thinking you needed anything extra to compensate afterall. That's cause the Warlock isn't all that great. However, maybe his gear just isn't that good. I don't have enough information to gauge that. It should not even be close to difficult for a Warlock to beat a Necro in Sullon's. In fact a Lock can best a Warlock there even if he's lazy about it.<cite>Banditman wrote:</cite><blockquote>I also don't see Sorcerers losing 50 - 60% of their DPS to an AE . . . over and over and over and over. </blockquote>You're right, I lose 100% of my DPS to an AE. Do you even raid on any sort of competitive level? Sorc's die a lot to AE's on any mob that matters because of the range on Fusion, Blast of Dev, & T-Clap. Necro's can Bloodpact their pet permanantly, and Conj's have an AE immune proc from their myth that's up more often than not. Sorc's lose more DPS from deaths on AE's than Summoners (at least Necro's).You don't lose 100% of your DPS to AoE, not even close. Summoners have a lot of hurdles in HM content. From Pets getting riposte on MOB turns to AoEs that fire off and 1-shot them. Even for a Necro making sure it doesn't die (especially on Add Switches) requires more management than a Wizard to stay alive, and on some encounters it's a real PITA to manage hte pet, like Tert HM where even as a Necro if your pet dies to Ripste or something it can end up taking 10+ seconds to get/buff a new one and start DPSing again. On other encounters if your mana gets drained then Blood Pact drops and any AoE can 1 shot the pet, causing a loop where everytime you finish summoning one, it gets one shotted before you can get Blood Pact on it (Hragdol or whatever in Sullons, for example). Get Velium Cipher or something if you're bad and die all the time. I've seen it works wonders.<cite>Banditman wrote:</cite><blockquote>Personal procs are NOT proc'ed by our pets. </blockquote>Thank goodness. Neither should group & raid damage procs.Shut up.</blockquote>Red Text.

Trensharo

08-24-2011, 04:43 PM

<cite>Haciv wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite><a href="mailto:Trenshero@Antonia">Trenshero@Antonia</a> Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>I've never seen ET proc that high with only one summoner in a party in Kraytocs or Kael instances.That being said, I've never put much weight in ZW parses, anyways so /shrugs/</blockquote> Ok... you don't put much weight in ZW's. Even though that show's a full picture of named + trash.How bout just a trash parse?<img src="http://img825.imageshack.us/img825/1008/etox4.jpg" width="776" height="580" />Maybe a named parse where 4 of the top 6 damage is damage procs being double dipped?<img src="http://img853.imageshack.us/img853/9697/sullon1.jpg" width="769" height="317" /></blockquote>You're trolling us.Necro pets do not cast Igneous Flames.EDIT: Or Shocking Flames. OR Storm of Flames.^^- Those are all Fiery Magician Spells, not Grim Sorcerer. Either your toon is some Hybrid Summoner, or you're trolling hard, buddy.You had a Conjuror name their pet after you to combine the procs from their pet with yours to inflate ET's parse, then you posted here asking for a nerf. Way to go, owning yourself.Lol... That explains how you got 614 ET procs in a 30 second 4-6 Trash MOB encounter parse.EDIT #2: All of your Necro parses have Conjuror pet spells in the Pie Chart break-down. Nice try, but fail more.For Reference:Conjuror Pet Spells: <a href="http://eq2.wikia.com/wiki/Fiery_Magician_VI">http://eq2.wikia.com/wiki/Fiery_Magician_VI</a>

Haciv

08-24-2011, 05:19 PM

<cite>Trenshero@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>Please post a parse from a group with only one summoner in it.Doubling up the buff isn't really helping your argument, Mr. Sigmaz.</blockquote>I'm not Sigmaz, I'm Vicah.Finding parses without doubled up summoners is tough for me. We have 2 conjs, 2 locks, 2 wiz, and a necro in guild of which 6 of those are in 2 groups at any given time. Typically if all 3 summoners are in raid the Necro and a Conj are together. I'm sure I could dig up some parses where the summoners (necro specifically) aren't dominating with doubled up buffs but it's not the norm.Here's a good single target, Conj parse w/o the 2nd summoner there. Again, look at the temp buffs. Top 2 damage are temp buffs. Ice Lash and VC are way up there too.<img src="http://img854.imageshack.us/img854/3041/throne1.jpg" width="774" height="320" />

Trensharo

08-24-2011, 05:21 PM

You're trolling. See above Edits. I'm done with you until you can explain how a Necro got conjuror pet spells in all of those parses.Either you're trolling us, or you got trolled harder than I've ever seen.And Elemetal Bast is nice for temp procs, BTW. Interestingly ET doesn't show up in that parse O.O

Haciv

08-24-2011, 05:31 PM

<cite>Trenshero@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>You're trolling. See above Edits. I'm done with you until you can explain how a Necro got conjuror pet spells in all of those parses.Either you're trolling us, or you got trolled harder than I've ever seen.And Elemetal Bast is nice for temp procs, BTW. Interestingly ET doesn't show up in that parse O.O</blockquote>It's called Servant of the Flame, Sol Ro pet, that's probably casting the spells you don't recognize as being Necro specific. I'm not trolling, those are legit parses, anyone in my guild can back me up on that. You can see the same spells on the Illy parse I posted too.ET was low on that Gunnr parse, though (again) it's not ET that is the problem. It's double and triple dipping all damage temps that is the problem as a whole.EDIT: What do you mean by "And Elemetal Bast is nice for temp procs, BTW" ? That just doesn't even make any sense at all.

dotdotdot

08-24-2011, 05:41 PM

<cite>Haciv wrote:</cite><blockquote>dotdotdot wrote:<blockquote>I'd be curious to see what the chanter parsed in those double summoner group. Comparing a sorc (who has longest cast times) to a summoner (faster cast time + two beings casting) with a 100% proc is always going to give the edge to the summoner. Simply put, they can get more casts in during the time the proc is up, so of course they're going to get more hits. And having the pet also casting in that time adds to the number of procs.Chanters, who cast fastest and also have a pet (that doesn't compare dps wise to a summoner pet), would be a much more fair comparison to make if you want to check proc hits.</blockquote> Here's the chanter from that group iirc.<img src="http://img217.imageshack.us/img217/7603/etox6.jpg" width="778" height="581" /></blockquote>Hmm.... so why aren't you screaming that chanters are double dipping. The chanter in this parse had more hit than the sorc as well, almost by twice! Obviously you fail to understand 100% procs... the person getting more casts in will net more dps from that singular proc. Necros have this really cool spell called Undead Tide which will also proc ET... i like to call mine up before casting ET as well, its called maximizing my dps. And that necro obviously was using another pet as well (sol ro it looks like), thus garnering even more procs. That's the benefit of 100% procs!BTW, group buffs are meant to hit the pet, thus why the dev specifically said that group buffs on the summoner do not carry over to the pet. So things like ET, POM, FG, etc are MEANT to proc off both the summoner and the pet. I don't see what the issue is that you have with it. Unless you can prove FROM LOGS (not parses) that summoner pets are in fact procing things like ET twice for each cast, you're just assuming that something is broken. I don't think anything is broken.

Banditman

08-24-2011, 05:45 PM

<cite>Haciv wrote:</cite><blockquote>It's called Servant of the Flame, Sol Ro pet, that's probably casting the spells you don't recognize as being Necro specific. I'm not trolling, those are legit parses, anyone in my guild can back me up on that. You can see the same spells on the Illy parse I posted too.</blockquote>So, you are not only showing a two Summoner parse, you are showing the parse from the PoV of a Necro who had not only his own pet, but the Sol Ro temp pet (protected by Blood Pact no less!) *also* proc'ing all the temps.Yes, it absolutely will make things look out of balance.I'm done explaining to you how this works. Your entire arguement is based around the thought that Summoners don't need to use as much "skill" as other classes in pumping out big numbers. That's not at all true. What is true is that a Summoner spends a lot of time and effort in pet maintenance which doesn't show up in a parse. The really good Summoners have this stuff down to second nature and make it look effortless. It isn't. Just as the really good [insert non-Summoner DPS class here] also have things that they make look easy which probably are not.

Haciv

08-24-2011, 05:58 PM

<cite>Banditman wrote:</cite><blockquote>So, you are not only showing a two Summoner parse, you are showing the parse from the PoV of a Necro who had not only his own pet, but the Sol Ro temp pet (protected by Blood Pact no less!) *also* proc'ing all the temps.</blockquote>I showed a ZW, of which the pet was only up for a portion of this time. I also stated that even without the double and triple dips that the Necro would of still won the zonewide over the Warlocks with most of the mobs linked AE encounters. <cite>Banditman wrote:</cite><blockquote>Yes, it absolutely will make things look out of balance. </blockquote>Is there any way to view it? lol<cite>Banditman wrote:</cite><blockquote>I'm done explaining to you how this works. Your entire arguement is based around the thought that Summoners don't need to use as much "skill" as other classes in pumping out big numbers. That's not at all true. What is true is that a Summoner spends a lot of time and effort in pet maintenance which doesn't show up in a parse. The really good Summoners have this stuff down to second nature and make it look effortless. It isn't. Just as the really good [insert non-Summoner DPS class here] also have things that they make look easy which probably are not.</blockquote> Yes, there are skilled summoners. I'm guilded with 3 of them. There's a difference between skill and broken mechanics though.

Trensharo

08-24-2011, 06:07 PM

<cite>Haciv wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Trenshero@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>You're trolling. See above Edits. I'm done with you until you can explain how a Necro got conjuror pet spells in all of those parses.Either you're trolling us, or you got trolled harder than I've ever seen.And Elemetal Bast is nice for temp procs, BTW. Interestingly ET doesn't show up in that parse O.O</blockquote>It's called Servant of the Flame, Sol Ro pet, that's probably casting the spells you don't recognize as being Necro specific. I'm not trolling, those are legit parses, anyone in my guild can back me up on that. You can see the same spells on the Illy parse I posted too.ET was low on that Gunnr parse, though (again) it's not ET that is the problem. It's double and triple dipping all damage temps that is the problem as a whole.EDIT: What do you mean by "And Elemetal Bast is nice for temp procs, BTW" ? That just doesn't even make any sense at all.</blockquote>I don't expect it to make much sense to you <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Trensharo

08-24-2011, 06:10 PM

A Necro with SolRo diety?

Haciv

08-24-2011, 06:11 PM

<cite>Trenshero@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Haciv wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Trenshero@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>You're trolling. See above Edits. I'm done with you until you can explain how a Necro got conjuror pet spells in all of those parses.Either you're trolling us, or you got trolled harder than I've ever seen.And Elemetal Bast is nice for temp procs, BTW. Interestingly ET doesn't show up in that parse O.O</blockquote>It's called Servant of the Flame, Sol Ro pet, that's probably casting the spells you don't recognize as being Necro specific. I'm not trolling, those are legit parses, anyone in my guild can back me up on that. You can see the same spells on the Illy parse I posted too.ET was low on that Gunnr parse, though (again) it's not ET that is the problem. It's double and triple dipping all damage temps that is the problem as a whole.EDIT: What do you mean by "And Elemetal Bast is nice for temp procs, BTW" ? That just doesn't even make any sense at all.</blockquote>I don't expect it to make much sense to you <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" /></blockquote>No, seriously. Explain what you meant there.You mispelled Elemental and you mispelled Blast, and you claimed it "is nice for temp procs". I guess I'm a noob, help me understand what you were trying to tell me.

Haciv

08-24-2011, 06:12 PM

<cite>Trenshero@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>A Necro with SolRo diety?</blockquote>Sure, what not? Get a 3rd pet to pew pew your parse to the top with temp buffs. It's a neutral Deity, so anyone can pick it up. /shrug

dotdotdot

08-24-2011, 06:13 PM

<cite>Haciv wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Trenshero@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Haciv wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Trenshero@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>You're trolling. See above Edits. I'm done with you until you can explain how a Necro got conjuror pet spells in all of those parses.Either you're trolling us, or you got trolled harder than I've ever seen.And Elemetal Bast is nice for temp procs, BTW. Interestingly ET doesn't show up in that parse O.O</blockquote>It's called Servant of the Flame, Sol Ro pet, that's probably casting the spells you don't recognize as being Necro specific. I'm not trolling, those are legit parses, anyone in my guild can back me up on that. You can see the same spells on the Illy parse I posted too.ET was low on that Gunnr parse, though (again) it's not ET that is the problem. It's double and triple dipping all damage temps that is the problem as a whole.EDIT: What do you mean by "And Elemetal Bast is nice for temp procs, BTW" ? That just doesn't even make any sense at all.</blockquote>I don't expect it to make much sense to you <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" /></blockquote>No, seriously. Explain what you meant there.You mispelled Elemental and you mispelled Blast, and you claimed it "is nice for temp procs". I guess I'm a noob, help me understand what you were trying to tell me.</blockquote>You misspelled misspelled.... just sayin.

Haciv

08-24-2011, 06:17 PM

<cite>dotdotdot wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Haciv wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Trenshero@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Haciv wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Trenshero@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>You're trolling. See above Edits. I'm done with you until you can explain how a Necro got conjuror pet spells in all of those parses.Either you're trolling us, or you got trolled harder than I've ever seen.And Elemetal Bast is nice for temp procs, BTW. Interestingly ET doesn't show up in that parse O.O</blockquote>It's called Servant of the Flame, Sol Ro pet, that's probably casting the spells you don't recognize as being Necro specific. I'm not trolling, those are legit parses, anyone in my guild can back me up on that. You can see the same spells on the Illy parse I posted too.ET was low on that Gunnr parse, though (again) it's not ET that is the problem. It's double and triple dipping all damage temps that is the problem as a whole.EDIT: What do you mean by "And Elemetal Bast is nice for temp procs, BTW" ? That just doesn't even make any sense at all.</blockquote>I don't expect it to make much sense to you <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" /></blockquote>No, seriously. Explain what you meant there.You mispelled Elemental and you mispelled Blast, and you claimed it "is nice for temp procs". I guess I'm a noob, help me understand what you were trying to tell me.</blockquote>You misspelled misspelled.... just sayin.</blockquote>lol. I'm not even gonna edit that to be correct. /facePalmI deserve that, thx.

Trensharo

08-24-2011, 06:18 PM

How did the Sol Ro temp pet do 8% of his ZW, not counting procs, with only 25% uptime (10 minutes out of 34+, it has a 1 50 minute reuse or something)?Unless you're Neutral and playing on a PvP server going SolRo over Bert or Anashti is idiotic.

Haciv

08-24-2011, 06:23 PM

<cite>Trenshero@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>How did the Sol Ro temp pet do 8% of his ZW, not counting procs, with only 25% uptime (10 minutes out of 34+, it has a 1 50 minute reuse or something)?Unless you're Neutral and playing on a PvP server going SolRo over Bert or Anashti is idiotic.</blockquote>It's a fairly powerful lil pet. Maybe you should pick it up and try it.

SacDaddy420

08-24-2011, 06:30 PM

trensharo the more i read your posts the more i realize you have alot to learn.

dotdotdot

08-24-2011, 06:32 PM

<cite>Sacdaddicus@Guk wrote:</cite><blockquote>trensharo the more i read your posts the more i realize you have alot to learn.</blockquote>Yep... he is right sometimes, but generally using outdated info.

Gaarysal

08-24-2011, 07:19 PM

<cite>Trenshero@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Gaarysal@Permafrost wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Banditman wrote:</cite><blockquote>When you put 2 Summoners in the, shockingly, it makes ET look a lot better. Probably because it is up twice as often. Or something like that.</blockquote>You are missing the point. Both sets of parses are from 2 people, a sorc and a summoner IN THE SAME GROUP. There can be sorc + 5 summoners it does not matter. You look at the number of procs that etox, frigid gift, curse of darkness, pom, vc ect did and the summoner is proccing it more than double or tripple (if the sol ro blessing pet is used) than the sorc. This adds up to insane amounts of dps from the same temp buffs that should be applying equally to everyone in the group, sure some classes will cast faster and get a few more procs and it will do a bit more dps. I think what he's trying to get at is it's not fair that just because your class has a pet it automatically gets 8k+ more dps from one proc buff. And don't say its a benefit or "feature" of the summoner/shaman/chanter classes because anyone with sol ro, innoruk, and a few other deities can exploit an otherwise crappy blessing to pump out massive dps. Not to mention a templar hammer or ranger hawk.Having a class's dps "balanced" by relying on group procs is just terrible mechanics especially in group and solo play.</blockquote>I hardly get to read such idiocy. You've made my day.</blockquote>No matter how many summoners you have THE RATIO OF THE PROCS IS THE SAME. Roughly 2:1 with no blessing and 3:1 with the blessing. The sorc gets the double tripple quad ect ETs just like the summoner."And Elemental Blast is nice for temp procs, BTW"You must still wear a aITEM -1343573124 -666022740:Planar Orb of the Wanderer/a look at all those procs! oh wait those mechanics were nerfed like 5 years ago. And if it is proccing off every hit that IS broken as well as if undead tide is proccing temps as someone said.

Sigmaz01

08-24-2011, 08:42 PM

Well as i said before...i used diety spells like the ro pet so yea my dps is gonna be high hehe like in those parses! If any sorc used the ro pet and is able to keep that thing alive then they to will be able to parse really high. The good thing about being a necro and having this diety spell is bloodpact which provides 100% ae avoidence.

Zephanor

08-24-2011, 10:34 PM

This thread took and interesting dive, lol!In any event on topic I agree with those that have called for additional shared stats. I rarely if ever cast my pet while raiding anymore. It's just not worth it which is a shame because with shared pot, cb, ab, etc, etc it actually does okay, certainly a world better than SF. But when it dies on pull because it has no crit mit or resists... just sad. What good are all those other shared stats if it can't even use them? It's great for soloing or beating up the training dummy but really a waste otherwise and that's disappointing.

Zindrik

08-25-2011, 12:50 AM

First of all I would like to point out that I play a conjuror, and I been playing him since day 1, so I've been through all the ups and downs of the class and a nerf would hurt me just as much as anyone else here.I don't see why everyone is making such a big deal about pets triggering ET, the only fights where it does more damage than other proc buffs is on 3+ linked mobs. A much bigger deal is PoTM which is up nearly 100% of the time with 2 troubs in raid, and VC which does way more damage for people with pets than other proc buffs for obvious reasons. Regarding the Sol Ro pet, I have to agree that it is stupidly overpowered for summoners (necros especially). As a conjuror the pet is a huge dps boost when it's up since it procs dissonate note, potm, pom, et, gift, vc, AND self-cast buffs like Blazing Avatar. But it's squishy as hell and requires constant cycling of saves and stoneskins to keep it alive on any fight with an average aoe.As a necro you get all of the above MINUS the squishy part cause of Bloodpact. Add in a little "trick" that summoners can use to keep the pet up past the 10 minutes that a regular blessing lasts, and you can't seriously tell me that it doesn't seem a little overpowered. Why am I posting all this if I'm benefiting from it? Because, it's stupid to have a blessing that increases summoners dps by THIRTY PERCENT (which is what it currently does, more or less), while non-summoners hardly get any use out of it.And I do agree that summoners rely WAY too much on procs for dps. It's sickening to know that without a chanter and 2+ troubs in raid I can't do even half the dps that I can do with them, because procs make up such a ridiculous percentage of a summoner's dps.IMO they should make all pets not trigger procs, and increase the base damage of spells (or add more ticks to spells) to make up for it. Granted it would take some work to balance it properly, but it would be better overall than having the whole game balanced around procs (which demands that you have a perfect group setup or else you're screwed). Temp buffs that trigger procs should be about adding a small boost to dps, not an enormous boost like it is currently. Also, make procs from gear and war runes do more damage so they are worth using again!

Trensharo

08-25-2011, 05:06 AM

Not changing diety for that pet. Bertox is better.Summoner DPS is balanced around the pets getting the procs. If you nerf the procs, the pets will need a substancial DPS upgrade and Sorcs like the person in question would still cry about it because the pet spells will be topping every parse and they'll claim that Summoners can /pet attack and AFK and still do T1 DPS levels.

slaw

08-25-2011, 12:41 PM

As a coercer and having spoke with other top coercers as well as illys we feel very strongly that our pets are worth less in most raids. Specifically the issues I care about are with the coercer pet. We just want to be able to use the abilities we have. Not a hard request. Sure in easy mode you can manage to keep a pet alive on some trash fights. But since having a pet up adds a decent amount of dps it is aggravating to not have it up or to cast a Possesed Essence, buff it and send it in (10seconds of my time) and then see it get one-shotted.Possible fix? 1) Lower the cast time considerably!!!2) Extend the range to posses a pet to 50m!!! Currently I am within aggro range to posses a pet in raids. Which means I'm either making a pet during a fight or attempting suicide.3) Share critmit and hp - if I don't get one shotted my pet shouldn't either. This would not be OP in any way at all.4) and/or ranged ability that equals its melee dps ability (currently ranged dps on pet is meaningless)--or--Remove the pet ability and replace it with temp pet that procs damage or something.OH AND FIX CHARM SO IT DOESNT AGGRO EVERYTHING LOS in KAEL!thanks