Drunder raid loot

[Bremer]

<p>Like the progression from solo and heroic to raid gear the progression from EM to Drunder EM to HM gear isn't fully working:</p><p><img src="http://img99.imageshack.us/img99/3347/armband.png" /></p><p>The Drunder item has more reuse speed than the HM item and it lacks multi attack.</p><p><img src="http://img705.imageshack.us/img705/1124/bogen.png" /></p><p>The EM and HM items have flurry, the Drunder item not</p><p><img src="http://img585.imageshack.us/img585/7200/ringy.png" /></p><p>The Drunder item (without picture) has no multiattack.</p><p>Also the scout belt from the first named in Sullon's Spire has no multiattack, the EM and HM items have 20+.</p><p>The armor from Drunder EM has more Sta and Str/Agi/etc than HM gear, all blue stats are worse.</p><p>All EM fighter, scout, priest, mage primary and secondary items and all scout priest mage ranged items have the same amount of critAll Drunder fighter, scout, priest, mage primary and secondary items and all scout priest mage ranged items have the same amount of crit.All HM fighter, scout, priest, mage primary and secondary items and all scout priest mage ranged items have the same amount of crit.The only exception is the fighter ranged item. The fighter EM ranged item has less crit chance than Heroic drops and all other classes EM drops. The fighter Drunder ranged item has less crit chance than the EM item of all other classes and so on.</p>

[Silzin]

A nether problem to compound this is that in order to kill the EM drunder mobs, you guild needs to be in mostly DoV HM gear... so almost nothing in EM Drunder will be upgrades.

[Yimway]

<p><cite>Silzin@Crushbone wrote:</cite></p><blockquote>A nether problem to compound this is that in order to kill the EM drunder mobs, you guild needs to be in mostly DoV HM gear... so almost nothing in EM Drunder will be upgrades.</blockquote><p>They've already stated these encounters are scaled harder than intended and will be nerfed in GU61.</p><p>I do agree with the OP, the drunder gear does not seem to scale where it should be (between EM and HM).  And that appears to be mostly centered around how MA is distrubuted.</p><p>Also, I've noticed several of the pieces have the wrong focus effect.  Guardian focus on beserker item, etc.</p>

[Gaige]

<p>Only change to Drunder afaik is the first named in Vallons (who is killable as is anyway).  Where did you see otherwise?</p>

[Banditman]

<p>I find it a complete travesty that in an expansion where the primary means to advance your character is Itemization, the execution of it is such a total failure as to be absurd.</p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">Newsflash for Development:  Itemization *is* the game right now when it comes to character advancement, and MMO's are all about character development and advancement.</span></p>

[Yimway]

<p><cite>Gaige wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Only change to Drunder afaik is the first named in Vallons (who is killable as is anyway).  Where did you see otherwise?</p></blockquote><p>Test patch notes last week:</p><p><strong>POPULATION / ZONE PROGRESSION</strong><em><strong>Sullon’s Spire, Tallon’s Stronghold, and Vallon’s Tower x4 raid zones (NOT challenge mode)</strong></em></p><ul><li>Several of the encounters in the zone have been made less powerful so that <strong>the challenge from these zones is more in line with the rewards</strong>.  In particular boss npcs will tend to melee attack for less damage, and many of their aoe spells will also do less damage, as well as be more mitigateable.</li></ul><p> <em><strong>Vallon’s Tower x4 raid zone (NOT challenge mode)</strong></em></p><ul><li>Lichlord Skulldugger’s Tactical Immunity does not last as long, and has a better description attached to its examine icon.</li></ul><p>------------------------------</p><p>This is now the 2nd or 3rd time they've tweaked these zones?  I expect they'll continue to modify them until they are appropriately set between EM and HM of the orriginal release.  It is clear to me the point system on the itemization was intended for these Drunder EM's to fit between that content level, as soon as the challenge is set there I think the content will be more appreciated/utilized.</p><p>The content as it is, is going largely unplayed.</p>

[Talathion]

<p>The gear should be between those...</p>

[Gaige]

<p><cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>The content as it is, is going largely unplayed.</p></blockquote><p>Weird since they're clearable already~</p>

[Quicksilver74]

<p><cite>Gaige wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>The content as it is, is going largely unplayed.</p></blockquote><p>Weird since they're clearable already~</p></blockquote><p>Only to really good players, not to the majority.</p>

[Yimway]

<p><cite>Gaige wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>The content as it is, is going largely unplayed.</p></blockquote><p>Weird since they're clearable already~</p></blockquote><p>Duh, however look at the relatively low % of guilds progressing that content.  Drunder being content placed between EM and HM, you would expect guilds killing some HM would be making more progress in Drunders EM than they are.  The reality is they know many of the HM fights from the orriginal 3 zones are easier and offer more rewards for the same time spent.</p><p>In that regard, the challenge level of Drunder EM failed to hit the mark and they are adjusting it, I expect they'll continue adjusting it until it is atleast consumed to some degree by all casual raiding folks.</p><p>Now, if the challenge of drunder EM currently is where it was designed to be, then the itemization needs some serious attention.  The direction patches are going seems to indicate the challenge was the part that was off.</p>

[Silzin]

<p><cite>Gaige wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>The content as it is, is going largely unplayed.</p></blockquote><p>Weird since they're clearable already~</p></blockquote><p>They are Clearable my guilds in mostly DoV HM gear.  I have not seen a single guild killing even the 1st Drunder mob that does not have at least 3-4 HM on farm, AND this is not how it should be.</p>

[Silzin]

NM, 2 ppl beat me to it...

[Quicksilver74]

<p>I wish more zones were like Shard of Hate, in that it's accessible to every guild, but only clearable by the top.</p>

[Gaige]

<p>So you want EM challenge but better than EM gear.</p><p>Go figure, never saw that coming.  If the gear is better than launch EM the challenge has to be harder than launch EM.</p>

[Yimway]

<p><cite>Gaige wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>So you want EM challenge but better than EM gear.</p><p>Go figure, never saw that coming.  If the gear is better than launch EM the challenge has to be harder than launch EM.</p></blockquote><p>Again, duh, it should not however be harder than any launch HM (or atleast more than a couple of them).</p><p>There are a ton of guilds with 4-6 HM's on farm that haven't killed any mobs in Drunder EM.</p><p>My own guild is progressing drunder, but its largely viewed as a waste of time regarding its challenge vs reward if any other timer is available.</p>

[LardLord]

<p>Drunder should not have even had an easy mode.  It should have been like the Underfoot Depths of this expansion.  They need to stop trying to fit so many tiers of progression into the game because it's impossible to make all these tiers relevant and balanced.</p>

[Gaige]

<p><cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Again, duh, it should not however be harder than any launch HM (or atleast more than a couple of them).</p><p>There are a ton of guilds with 4-6 HM's on farm that haven't killed any mobs in Drunder EM.</p><p>My own guild is progressing drunder, but its largely viewed as a waste of time regarding its challenge vs reward if any other timer is available.</p></blockquote><p>That is how crit mit progression works.  New zones require more.  The EM Drunder stuff is better than launch EM stuff so I don't see the validity of the complaints.</p>

[LardLord]

<p><cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Again, duh, it should not however be harder than any launch HM (or atleast more than a couple of them).</p><p>There are a ton of guilds with 4-6 HM's on farm that haven't killed any mobs in Drunder EM.</p><p>My own guild is progressing drunder, but its largely viewed as a waste of time regarding its challenge vs reward if any other timer is available.</p></blockquote><p>The problem is that there's already a smooth progression from easy Statue to the first HM mobs such as Gunnr and Frostbeard. There's not really any space between vanilla easy modes and vanilla hard modes to fit Drunder easy modes.</p>

[feldon30]

Currently, the required progression is EM launch -> HM launch -> EM Drunder -> HM Drunder. Shouldn't it be EM launch -> EM Drunder -> HM Drunder? Considering how few people are doing HM launch.

[Silzin]

From what i have seen gear CM, CC, and the mobs CM/CC requirements progression is EM launch -> EM Drunder -> HM launch -> HM Drunder.. Problem is that the EM Drunder mobs still much harder (NON Cit hits) then a lot or most of the HM launch mobs.

[Banditman]

<p><cite>Silzin@Crushbone wrote:</cite></p><blockquote>From what i have seen gear CM, CC, and the mobs CM/CC requirements progression is EM launch -> EM Drunder -> HM launch -> HM Drunder.. Problem is that the EM Drunder mobs still much harder (NON Cit hits) then a lot or most of the HM launch mobs.</blockquote><p>The Devs seem to agree with you, based on the upcoming nerfs to the Drunder EM zones.</p>

[NViDiaFReaK]

<p><cite>feldon30 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote>Currently, the required progression is EM launch -> HM launch -> EM Drunder -> HM Drunder. Shouldn't it be EM launch -> EM Drunder -> HM Drunder? Considering how few people are doing HM launch.</blockquote><p>you'd think so .. this has been posted and talked about since drunder was announced..  nothing has been done about it..no suprise</p>

[Yimway]

<p><cite>Quabi@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>The problem is that there's already a smooth progression from easy Statue to the first HM mobs such as Gunnr and Frostbeard. There's<strong> not really any space between</strong> vanilla easy modes and vanilla hard modes to fit Drunder easy modes.</p></blockquote><p>I actually disagree.  While there isn't much room between the encounters you mention (cause for some guilds those 2 HM's are easier than statue).  As I see it  there are 2 ways in which encounters can scale dificulty.  One is execution challenge from the script being complicated, the other is raw damage output from something just hitting really hard.</p><p>I don't agree in that guilds are finding the turtle guy HM easier than drunder EM, and looking at typical progression it appears they are.</p><p>The problem is the mix of the two factors on Drunder EM sets the bar just a tad too high for alot of guilds.  You can either simplify the scripts (I don't recommend) or tone the damage / mana drain output down 10-20% (I do recommend).</p>

[LardLord]

<p><cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Quabi@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>The problem is that there's already a smooth progression from easy Statue to the first HM mobs such as Gunnr and Frostbeard. There's<strong> not really any space between</strong> vanilla easy modes and vanilla hard modes to fit Drunder easy modes.</p></blockquote><p>I actually disagree.  While there isn't much room between the encounters you mention (cause for some guilds those 2 HM's are easier than statue).  As I see it  there are 2 ways in which encounters can scale dificulty.  One is execution challenge from the script being complicated, the other is raw damage output from something just hitting really hard.</p><p>I don't agree in that guilds are finding the turtle guy HM easier than drunder EM, and looking at typical progression it appears they are.</p><p>The problem is the mix of the two factors on Drunder EM sets the bar just a tad too high for alot of guilds.  You can either simplify the scripts (I don't recommend) or tone the damage / mana drain output down 10-20% (I do recommend).</p></blockquote><p>Even if they lower the damage in Drunder EM zones, your time is still going to be better spent in either vanilla EM or vanilla HM.  I doubt Turt HM is actually any easier than the current Sullon's/Tallon's nameds (except the end bosses?), but if you're going to spend time on progression, it makes much more sense to kill Turt, which grants better loot and leads to two pinatas.  The only way Drunder EM zones will have a point is if they're nerfed to the point that they can take the place of the vanilla EM zones, which means they should never have been created in the first place. </p><p><strong>EDIT: </strong>And if there's a problem in HM progression, they should just fix that.  Glancing over guild progress, it appears people are progressing pretty smoothly through HM content, except Munderrad seems to be holding a lot of guilds up.  If they nerf the KB on Munderrad like they did with Eirreen and Valdemar, then low-mid level guilds could start progressing in HM Zek instead of Drunder EM.</p>

[Talathion]

<p>Wanna know something funny?</p><p>Estate of Unrest (EOF), when it was released, saw more people then all 6 of these zones combined, had content that catored to raiders, groupers and was overall fun and challenging, and had no critical Mitigation.</p><p>Its first 2 months saw probably 280x more people (people actually running the zone) then ALL 6 Drundar Zones combined.</p>

[Yimway]

<p><cite>Quabi@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite></cite> I doubt Turt HM is actually any easier than the current Sullon's/Tallon's nameds (except the end bosses?)</p></blockquote><p>I would say the execution dificulty of Turt Hm equals that of many of the Drunder scripts.  And looking at our parses, the damage output from the Drunder encounters is far more than the damage output of Turt HM.</p><p>I'm interested to see where those numbers line up after GU61.  It is my opinion that our incoming damamge in drunder should be less than our incoming damage on Kraytoc HM encounters.</p>

[Felshades]

<p><cite>Gaige wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>So you want EM challenge but better than EM gear.</p><p>Go figure, never saw that coming.  If the gear is better than launch EM the challenge has to be harder than launch EM.</p></blockquote><p>They're harder than HM with worse gear.</p><p>That's the problem. What part of that are you not understanding?</p><p>Head. Backside. Remove one from the other.</p>

[Felshades]

<p><cite>Quabi@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Drunder should not have even had an easy mode.  It should have been like the Underfoot Depths of this expansion.  They need to stop trying to fit so many tiers of progression into the game because it's impossible to make all these tiers relevant and balanced.</p></blockquote><p>How about get rid of EM/HM and just make more and different raids with more levels of difficulty?</p><p>2-3 easy ones, 2-3 harder ones, 2-3 OMG WE CAN'T CLEAR THIS ones.</p><p>Instead of reusing the same stupid raid for two different difficulties that screws things up when they add a new zone. Oh, the new easy mode drops worse gear than the old hard mode but you need the old hard mode gear to clear it!</p><p>Risk/reward ratio here is out of whack.</p>

[LardLord]

<p><cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p> It is my opinion that our incoming damamge in drunder should be less than our incoming damage on Kraytoc HM encounters.</p></blockquote><p>I'd welcome a shift more towards survivability checks in Drunder.  Running with 4-6 healers because DPS is really all that matters is starting to get old.</p>

[Gaige]

<p><cite>Sakiri@Crushbone wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>They're harder than HM with worse gear.</p><p>That's the problem. What part of that are you not understanding?</p><p>Head. Backside. Remove one from the other.</p></blockquote><p>How many of them have you killed?  Quit talking without experience imo, since I've killed more of EM Drunder than anyone outside my guild.</p><p><span style="font-family: 'Times New Roman'; font-size: medium;"><div><p><cite>Sakiri@Crushbone wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>How about get rid of EM/HM and just make more and different raids with more levels of difficulty?</p><p>2-3 easy ones, 2-3 harder ones, 2-3 OMG WE CAN'T CLEAR THIS ones.</p></blockquote><p>They did that for years until scrubs complained about not being able to see all the zones/bosses and finish the quests that required expansion boss kills.</p></div></span></p>

[Talathion]

<p>Drundar Bracelet needs Multiattack and the Drundar Bow needs Flurry.</p>