Recent Illusionist AA changes. [Archive] - EQ2 Forum Archive @ EQ2Wire

ShadowMunkie

08-12-2011, 05:03 PM

First off Xelgad if you are readin gthis, thank you for giving illusionist a boost to some of the more worthless/useless AA's. With that said I'd like to add that the following change is not nerly enough.Enhance: Personae Reflection now also improves the reflection's maximum health.The pet has around 20,000 ish health without the AA into the pet. With it into the pet it has about 26,000 ish health. That is in no way going to help with pet survivability for the pet in any aspect. Most AE's hit for 50k+ damage and even with full crit mit it still takes a chunk of damage away from people with 60k+ health.My proposal is to increase it from 10% max health gain to 25% max health gain and also give Coercer's an AA exactly like it. Make Enhance: Charm to increase the max health of possessed essence and charmed pets as well as the resistability to charm. While the Coercer possess essence is already a lot more health than ours it will help the survivability of a good portion of our dps.

LivelyHound

08-15-2011, 10:07 AM

I agree, increasing the hp of the pet is not going to work. If they up the hp so that the pet can survive in raid it will be overpowered in solo. What is needed is a non-direct aoe block of some sort, make it castable on fast refresh or make it permanent but either way its the only real answer to the pet dying in raid wihtout seriously overpowering it in solo. My last suggestion for this was 20% indirect dmg reduction per point.As to the change to phase... thank you for at least attempting to address phase. But you need to change the basic spell because the partial memwipe is fatal thanks to dots, pets and other issues. I would say make it a port+memwipe+tank target lock for short duration, however target locks are notorious for not working so please don't <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" /> You can find my ideas in : <a rel="nofollow" href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?start=105&topic_id=461894?" target="_blank">http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/...461894?</a> I havn't updated them in a while because basically what was broke is still broke.

Priam Pendragon

08-15-2011, 11:52 AM

Phase is slightly better now for heroic content, but epic it's pretty worthless as the mob will probably be stun immune anyway.Just lower the casting time for the pet down 2 seconds base and be done with it please.Things that need looked at still are phase, illusionary allies, doppleganger (manasoul heroic AA, it give 10 times less than description says it should). Pychic Trauma is a dot and should be affected by spell double attack. Spell auto attack kicking in on every spell attack makes the melee aspects of the strength line useless. Agility line for alot of raiders is also useless even with uncapped stats. Spending 32 almost worthless points in stamina for a decent aoe avoid is also pretty bad. Wisdom line even with uncapped stats and the dot, that's weaker than the priets brand new AOE dot, is still worthless. There's also something wrong with an illy having to call out to a coercer to feed his group, coercers have group mana feeds, which is fine, but an illy should have inately much stronger in group mana regen, the mythical just isn't doing it on the HM mana drainers anymore.

ShadowMunkie

08-15-2011, 02:46 PM

<cite>Priam Pendragon wrote:</cite><blockquote>Phase is slightly better now for heroic content, but epic it's pretty worthless as the mob will probably be stun immune anyway.Just lower the casting time for the pet down 2 seconds base and be done with it please.Things that need looked at still are phase, illusionary allies, doppleganger (manasoul heroic AA, it give 10 times less than description says it should). Pychic Trauma is a dot and should be affected by spell double attack. Spell auto attack kicking in on every spell attack makes the melee aspects of the strength line useless. Agility line for alot of raiders is also useless even with uncapped stats. Spending 32 almost worthless points in stamina for a decent aoe avoid is also pretty bad. Wisdom line even with uncapped stats and the dot, that's weaker than the priets brand new AOE dot, is still worthless. There's also something wrong with an illy having to call out to a coercer to feed his group, coercers have group mana feeds, which is fine, but an illy should have inately much stronger in group mana regen, the mythical just isn't doing it on the HM mana drainers anymore.</blockquote>Priam I'll try to answer your comments with as constructive feedback as I can.Physic Trauma is not a regular DoT spell. Its a retroactive direct daamge spell, meaning you only cast the first tick of it after that you have no control over it otherwise it would be too powerful therefore it cannot and should not be effected by spell doublecast.As far as Illusionist mana regen, Coercer's normally double my power regeneration however I have gotten it down to them only being a couple hundred points of power per second over mine. While its not their regeneration and we have to work 10 times harder than they do, I feel that power regeneration is closely matched. With that said I do agree our mythical is cr@p, it was good back in the day but, its worthless now.Daydream is actually pretty powerful, its on a .28 second recast and honestly its in my timewarp rotation on test and its hitting for a ton of damage. Think of it as free damage just about. You don't really lose anything from casting it and its just as good as other DoTs.

Priam Pendragon

08-15-2011, 04:58 PM

Sorry I disagree big time with the mana regen, if you think we are on par with Coercers for mana regeneration you obviosly don't raid the hard mode mana drainers, even sinking all your points into the Manasoul AA won't get you even remotely close to the coercer.On PT, can you please explain how an extra 5 ticks (on average) from timewarp every minute is possibly too powerful.On the wisdom dot, i really don't care so much, it's the other 'used to be worth while' lines that I'm concerned about. It's an easy choice to avoid wisdom all togethor when the strength and agi lines mean something, but now that they will be worth next to nothing, the wisdom pos dot, may be the best option, and I doubt it will make it into rotation.Edit: You sure it's on a .25 recast? I can see it as .25 casting speed, but the recast is probably more like nightmare at 25 seconds.

Encantador

08-15-2011, 05:36 PM

The base cast is .5 sec and the base recast 30 sec.

ShadowMunkie

08-15-2011, 05:43 PM

<cite>Priam Pendragon wrote:</cite><blockquote>Sorry I disagree big time with the mana regen, if you think we are on par with Coercers for mana regeneration you obviosly don't raid the hard mode mana drainers, even sinking all your points into the Manasoul AA won't get you even remotely close to the coercer.On PT, can you please explain how an extra 5 ticks (on average) from timewarp every minute is possibly too powerful.On the wisdom dot, i really don't care so much, it's the other 'used to be worth while' lines that I'm concerned about. It's an easy choice to avoid wisdom all togethor when the strength and agi lines mean something, but now that they will be worth next to nothing, the wisdom pos dot, may be the best option, and I doubt it will make it into rotation.Edit: You sure it's on a .25 recast? I can see it as .25 casting speed, but the recast is probably more like nightmare at 25 seconds.</blockquote>@Bold: Yeah I meant casting, I think the recast is something like 30second or close to that. I wasn't in game at the time.@Other:Obviously coercer's are extremely power with power regneration however saying I do not hard HM power drain encounters is kinda idiotic considering you either did not look at the guild I am in or you just like talking trash. We have killed Eireen HM while its a tough encounter the first time we killed it I was 700 pps behind the coercer, the last time I killed it I was 900 pps behind the Coercer.Coercer: 2300+ (MT Group)Me: 1400+ (OT Group)Second Illy: 1000+ (Mage Group)Third Illy: 700+ (OT Group)I coordinated with my group more this time so we lost less power over all, I knew whenever my healers were preventing themselves and when I needed to flow them the only issue I had was giving my tank power but, he dealt with it, Manatap was running and it was enough for him to do what he needed to do.PT is already a power ability, its too powerful for an AA ability in my opinion.

Encantador

08-15-2011, 06:09 PM

<cite>Senkai@Everfrost wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Priam Pendragon wrote:</cite><blockquote>Sorry I disagree big time with the mana regen, if you think we are on par with Coercers for mana regeneration you obviosly don't raid the hard mode mana drainers, even sinking all your points into the Manasoul AA won't get you even remotely close to the coercer.On PT, can you please explain how an extra 5 ticks (on average) from timewarp every minute is possibly too powerful.On the wisdom dot, i really don't care so much, it's the other 'used to be worth while' lines that I'm concerned about. It's an easy choice to avoid wisdom all togethor when the strength and agi lines mean something, but now that they will be worth next to nothing, the wisdom pos dot, may be the best option, and I doubt it will make it into rotation.Edit: You sure it's on a .25 recast? I can see it as .25 casting speed, but the recast is probably more like nightmare at 25 seconds.</blockquote>@Bold: Yeah I meant casting, I think the recast is something like 30second or close to that. I wasn't in game at the time.@Other:Obviously coercer's are extremely power with power regneration however saying I do not hard HM power drain encounters is kinda idiotic considering you either did not look at the guild I am in or you just like talking trash. We have killed Eireen HM while its a tough encounter the first time we killed it I was 700 pps behind the coercer, the last time I killed it I was 900 pps behind the Coercer.Coercer: 2300+ (MT Group)Me: 1400+ (OT Group)Second Illy: 1000+ (Mage Group)Third Illy: 700+ (OT Group)I coordinated with my group more this time so we lost less power over all, I knew whenever my healers were preventing themselves and when I needed to flow them the only issue I had was giving my tank power but, he dealt with it, Manatap was running and it was enough for him to do what he needed to do.PT is already a power ability, its too powerful for an AA ability in my opinion.</blockquote>Its a sad day when a chanter describes PT as overpowered. If it is, then so is Enchanted Vigor because they do about the same extra damage. Its particularly sad given how low DPS for chanters has sunk.

Priam Pendragon

08-15-2011, 07:57 PM

<cite>Senkai@Everfrost wrote:</cite><blockquote>@Bold: Yeah I meant casting, I think the recast is something like 30second or close to that. I wasn't in game at the time.@Other:Obviously coercer's are extremely power with power regneration however saying I do not hard HM power drain encounters is kinda idiotic considering you either did not look at the guild I am in or you just like talking trash. We have killed Eireen HM while its a tough encounter the first time we killed it I was 700 pps behind the coercer, the last time I killed it I was 900 pps behind the Coercer.Coercer: 2300+ (MT Group)Me: 1400+ (OT Group)Second Illy: 1000+ (Mage Group)Third Illy: 700+ (OT Group)I coordinated with my group more this time so we lost less power over all, I knew whenever my healers were preventing themselves and when I needed to flow them the only issue I had was giving my tank power but, he dealt with it, Manatap was running and it was enough for him to do what he needed to do.PT is already a power ability, its too powerful for an AA ability in my opinion.</blockquote>Eireen is not a mana drain fight, it's a simple joustable aoe. Try Tormax, then you'll see what I'm talking about. On a real mana drain fight, you flowing your healers is a mistake, because a coercer can't flow them and your group.PT can be powerful and it's just as often the suxors, there are plenty of times where I don't even get the first tick. You're only looking at max damage, you should look at the average which is initial + 5 = 6 total.

ShadowMunkie

08-15-2011, 08:13 PM

<cite>Priam Pendragon wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Senkai@Everfrost wrote:</cite><blockquote>@Bold: Yeah I meant casting, I think the recast is something like 30second or close to that. I wasn't in game at the time.@Other:Obviously coercer's are extremely power with power regneration however saying I do not hard HM power drain encounters is kinda idiotic considering you either did not look at the guild I am in or you just like talking trash. We have killed Eireen HM while its a tough encounter the first time we killed it I was 700 pps behind the coercer, the last time I killed it I was 900 pps behind the Coercer.Coercer: 2300+ (MT Group)Me: 1400+ (OT Group)Second Illy: 1000+ (Mage Group)Third Illy: 700+ (OT Group)I coordinated with my group more this time so we lost less power over all, I knew whenever my healers were preventing themselves and when I needed to flow them the only issue I had was giving my tank power but, he dealt with it, Manatap was running and it was enough for him to do what he needed to do.PT is already a power ability, its too powerful for an AA ability in my opinion.</blockquote>Eireen is not a mana drain fight, it's a simple joustable aoe. Try Tormax, then you'll see what I'm talking about. On a real mana drain fight, you flowing your healers is a mistake, because a coercer can't flow them and your group.PT can be powerful and it's just as often the suxors, there are plenty of times where I don't even get the first tick. You're only looking at max damage, you should look at the average which is initial + 5 = 6 total.</blockquote>I'm glad you KNOW what I am looking at, yet I took your figures and did the math.Here is the math just so you know. PT for myself hits between 35k - 80k intial + 5 triggers total damage = 210,000 - 480,000 damage doubling that is in the ball park of 420,000 - 960,000 with intiail + 5 triggers. The ability is overpowered whenever it comes into the ball park of wizard spells. You might not look at it like this but, its the sad fact that enchanters are lower teir DPS and shouldn't have any type of damage compared to a wizard.No we haven't tried HM Tormax yet, with that said I will still continue to power feed my healers because its not anyones job but, my own to do it. Its hard to compete with coercer's power regeneration but, I still have the ability to compete with it. I agree that manasoul ----- and is worthless in fact I haven't even specced into it, after I found out how little it gave back.@Encntador: Enchanted Vigor is useless unless you give it to a assassin or a wizard, no one else benefits from the amount of DPS it gives other than high dpsing classes. While it might seem overpowered no one takes it because it plain out right -----.

Priam Pendragon

08-15-2011, 08:43 PM

<cite>Senkai@Everfrost wrote:</cite><blockquote>Here is the math just so you know. PT for myself hits between 35k - 80k intial + 5 triggers total damage = 210,000 - 480,000 damage doubling that is in the ball park of 420,000 - 960,000 with intiail + 5 triggers. The ability is overpowered whenever it comes into the ball park of wizard spells. You might not look at it like this but, its the sad fact that enchanters are lower teir DPS and shouldn't have any type of damage compared to a wizard.No we haven't tried HM Tormax yet, with that said I will still continue to power feed my healers because its not anyones job but, my own to do it. Its hard to compete with coercer's power regeneration but, I still have the ability to compete with it. I agree that manasoul ----- and is worthless in fact I haven't even specced into it, after I found out how little it gave back.@Encntador: Enchanted Vigor is useless unless you give it to a assassin or a wizard, no one else benefits from the amount of DPS it gives other than high dpsing classes. While it might seem overpowered no one takes it because it plain out right -----.</blockquote>Right, so your average PT is 335k every 20 seconds (assuming your have the gear for 100% reuse) you realize that 16.7k / second is a rounding error for wizard damage yeah? If not your wizards are slacking. Allowing PT to multi-attack will still only affect 1 out of 3 PT's due to the 1 minute recast of Time Warp (leaving out the 2 though 8% or so from gear). Your getting an extra 335k / minute or 5.6k (rounded up) per second.So there you go PT 16.7k / sec with spell double allowed 22.3k .. not overpowered and certainly no where near what wizard nukes are doing with timewarp.Feed your healers, that's your job. When you actually fight a mana drain fight, feed your healers, then come back and comment please.

Nyxxian

08-16-2011, 12:14 AM

My guild isn't fighting HM mobs, but I have felt the pinch on fights like Imperator Kolskeggr. The power drain on that fight can get nasty (especially when your raid isn't an ideal set-up, like ours often is). And having the nasty power drain really isn't the problem: It's that the coercers group is able to handle it and mine often isn't. I hit manatap, I have the enervated buff, people are autoattacking, etc. But I don't have a good way to snap back mana to the group in the case of a drain. Manasoul seemed like it would be good but I didn't find it nearly as valuable as I'd hoped due to the damage component. Quite simply, a mob with a nasty power drain probably also has a nasty aoe and me ticking off 10% of my health that quickly is trouble. That and it really seems like it doesn't return much in the way of mana. Again, I know that might be the sort of problem HM raiders don't have, but it's a challenge for a more casual group like mine. I'd like to see something done to address that sort of "oh snap" power issue for illies. Heck, maybe we could turn Illusory Allies into something useful with that. Have the damage the mob used to kill the copies convert into a power heal for the group. Put it on a 5 or 6 minute timer so it's an "oh snap" sort of ability. It's sort of a silly idea, but it's something...

Priam Pendragon

08-16-2011, 05:03 AM

Yeah, most AoE drains are either joustable or aviodable for the most part and illy's do have some tools to fight the aoe's and low mana issues. The real mana drain fights are incurable detrimentals that drain somewhere between 400 and 700% more mana than normal (plus other draining abilities), and last the entire fight which is around 10 to 20 minutes. Thats when it becomes obvious how lacking the illy is in the mana reg department compared to his counterpart.

Encantador

08-16-2011, 06:02 AM

In terms of power regen yes coercers have it all over every other class. But do not undervalue the illu's power usage reductions. Within their own group illu's are doing fine. Yeah could be better, but nothing to cry about. Illu's have great buffs and okay DPS. Boost their personal DPS a bit and all is well. [Well apart from CC being useless.]However it seems developers want to make coercers even better at power regen while giving illu's trivial bit more DPS. Hard to understand their thinking.Better out of group power management for illu's and more personal DPS for coercers would be my choice of direction.

Priam Pendragon

08-16-2011, 12:51 PM

<cite>Encantador wrote:</cite><blockquote>In terms of power regen yes coercers have it all over every other class. But do not undervalue the illu's power usage reductions. Within their own group illu's are doing fine. Yeah could be better, but nothing to cry about. Illu's have great buffs and okay DPS. Boost their personal DPS a bit and all is well. [Well apart from CC being useless.]However it seems developers want to make coercers even better at power regen while giving illu's trivial bit more DPS. Hard to understand their thinking.Better out of group power management for illu's and more personal DPS for coercers would be my choice of direction.</blockquote>Sure we do fine until there is a long drawn out persistant mana drain fight, and there are plenty of them. I'm not undervalueing illy mana regen, I'm simply stating the truth, that you will end up spamming every mana regen tool you have and it won't be anywhere close to what you need and you will end up calling for help from the coercers.Notice I'm not asking for a coercer nerf, I'm simply asking for illusionists to get a bump to mana reg so we don't need to ask for mana regen from our counterpart.Coercers and Illy DPS is virtually tied, our mana reg isn't. To me that is wrong, Illy's should have better in group mana regen and approxiametly the same dps still.

Nrgy

08-16-2011, 01:56 PM

<cite>Priam Pendragon wrote:</cite><blockquote>Notice I'm not asking for a coercer nerf, I'm simply asking for illusionists to get a bump to mana reg so we don't need to ask for mana regen from our counterpart.</blockquote>^^^ This is how is ALWAYS starts, but in the end its the Nerf not the buff which makes it into life. History always repeats itself.

Encantador

08-16-2011, 02:02 PM

<cite>Priam Pendragon wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Encantador wrote:</cite><blockquote>In terms of power regen yes coercers have it all over every other class. But do not undervalue the illu's power usage reductions. Within their own group illu's are doing fine. Yeah could be better, but nothing to cry about. Illu's have great buffs and okay DPS. Boost their personal DPS a bit and all is well. [Well apart from CC being useless.]However it seems developers want to make coercers even better at power regen while giving illu's trivial bit more DPS. Hard to understand their thinking.Better out of group power management for illu's and more personal DPS for coercers would be my choice of direction.</blockquote>Sure we do fine until there is a long drawn out persistant mana drain fight, and there are plenty of them. I'm not undervalueing illy mana regen, I'm simply stating the truth, that you will end up spamming every mana regen tool you have and it won't be anywhere close to what you need and you will end up calling for help from the coercers.Notice I'm not asking for a coercer nerf, I'm simply asking for illusionists to get a bump to mana reg so we don't need to ask for mana regen from our counterpart.Coercers and Illy DPS is virtually tied, our mana reg isn't. To me that is wrong, Illy's should have better in group mana regen and approxiametly the same dps still.</blockquote>Amusing. I think most people would say that Illu's do more DPS than coercers and have far better buffs. Coercers have better power regen. But for you thats wrong. Coercer cannot be better than Illu at anything. Well equalise the power regen abilities and you will have 4 illusionist and 0 coercers instead of the 3 illu and 1 coercer that lots of guilds run with now.

ShadowMunkie

08-16-2011, 02:52 PM

<cite>Priam Pendragon wrote:</cite><blockquote>The real mana drain fights are incurable detrimentals that drain somewhere between 400 and 700% more mana than normal (plus other draining abilities), and last the entire fight which is around 10 to 20 minutes.</blockquote>@Bold: We have tools to fight that, if this really is the arguement then, I think you honestly need to re-evaluate what you know about our abilities more. In Tallon's stronghold before it got nerfed the second to last name had a 450% uncurable detriment that ate power, my guild killed it whenever the banners had 80,000,000 health and no thats not a type-o; it took us 20 minutes to kill it and my group never struggled with power for a single second.I think Tallon also had a nasty power drain but, once again before the nerfs my guild killed it without any group struggling with power.While we haven't fought HM Tormax, I doubt any group will struggle with power. Our groups aren't anywhere close to being maximized, we have attendance fail sometimes due to vacation and such but, we still kill stuff. While I agree our power regeneration doesn't shine 100% of the time, those that know how to manipulate the system surely can indeed compete with coercer's.

Priam Pendragon

08-16-2011, 03:13 PM

<cite>Encantador wrote:</cite><blockquote>Amusing. I think most people would say that Illu's do more DPS than coercers and have far better buffs. Coercers have better power regen. But for you thats wrong. Coercer cannot be better than Illu at anything. Well equalise the power regen abilities and you will have 4 illusionist and 0 coercers instead of the 3 illu and 1 coercer that lots of guilds run with now.</blockquote>I think most high end raiders know they do about the same dps in raids, and that coercers smoke illies in mana reg. There is only 1 spot really for a permanent illy, and thats in the mage group. Our job is primarily mana regeneration. I tell you what, gives us all your mana reg abilities and you can have the extra 5% dps and be dependent on us to feed you. No deal? go figure.

Buzzing

08-16-2011, 03:18 PM

<cite>Priam Pendragon wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Encantador wrote:</cite><blockquote>In terms of power regen yes coercers have it all over every other class. But do not undervalue the illu's power usage reductions. Within their own group illu's are doing fine. Yeah could be better, but nothing to cry about. Illu's have great buffs and okay DPS. Boost their personal DPS a bit and all is well. [Well apart from CC being useless.]However it seems developers want to make coercers even better at power regen while giving illu's trivial bit more DPS. Hard to understand their thinking.Better out of group power management for illu's and more personal DPS for coercers would be my choice of direction.</blockquote>Sure we do fine until there is a long drawn out persistant mana drain fight, and there are plenty of them. I'm not undervalueing illy mana regen, I'm simply stating the truth, that you will end up spamming every mana regen tool you have and it won't be anywhere close to what you need and you will end up calling for help from the coercers.Notice I'm not asking for a coercer nerf, I'm simply asking for illusionists to get a bump to mana reg so we don't need to ask for mana regen from our counterpart.Coercers and Illy DPS is virtually tied, our mana reg isn't. To me that is wrong, Illy's should have better in group mana regen and approxiametly the same dps still.</blockquote>how about asking for about the same regen... saying you should have more just seems selfish... Your roles in raid are diferent and tbh the corcer groups are generally needing the power more anyway...

Priam Pendragon

08-16-2011, 03:27 PM

<cite>Senkai@Everfrost wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Priam Pendragon wrote:</cite><blockquote>The real mana drain fights are incurable detrimentals that drain somewhere between 400 and 700% more mana than normal (plus other draining abilities), and last the entire fight which is around 10 to 20 minutes.</blockquote>@Bold: We have tools to fight that, if this really is the arguement then, I think you honestly need to re-evaluate what you know about our abilities more. In Tallon's stronghold before it got nerfed the second to last name had a 450% uncurable detriment that ate power, my guild killed it whenever the banners had 80,000,000 health and no thats not a type-o; it took us 20 minutes to kill it and my group never struggled with power for a single second.I think Tallon also had a nasty power drain but, once again before the nerfs my guild killed it without any group struggling with power.While we haven't fought HM Tormax, I doubt any group will struggle with power. Our groups aren't anywhere close to being maximized, we have attendance fail sometimes due to vacation and such but, we still kill stuff. While I agree our power regeneration doesn't shine 100% of the time, those that know how to manipulate the system surely can indeed compete with coercer's.</blockquote>@bold: nuff said. Come back and appalogize when you fight any of the HM mana drainers. I never said EM anything was a problem, but gratz for your accomplishment of being able to keep your group fed on an EM encounter.

Flamewi

08-16-2011, 03:29 PM

<cite>Priam Pendragon wrote:</cite><blockquote>I think most high end raiders know they do about the same dps in raids, and that coercers smoke illies in mana reg.</blockquote>Ummm.... LARGE "no" to both those statements. Generally illy's smoke coercers in DPS on raids (generally coercers are, on average, between 20-50k lower on dps than any illy I've ever seen, myself included). Also illy's generally have the highest power replenishment on any raid I've ever seen (either myself or the other illy in my guild ALWAYS top the power replenishment parse on our raids).This info correction brought to you by a high end raider.

Priam Pendragon

08-16-2011, 03:33 PM

<cite>Buzzing@Butcherblock wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Priam Pendragon wrote:</cite><blockquote>Coercers and Illy DPS is virtually tied, our mana reg isn't. To me that is wrong, Illy's should have better in group mana regen and approxiametly the same dps still.</blockquote>how about asking for about the same regen... saying you should have more just seems selfish... Your roles in raid are diferent and tbh the corcer groups are generally needing the power more anyway...</blockquote>I'd love to have the same regen abilities, but I'd settle for not having to rely on coercers for help on the HM draining encounters. Illy dps is as posted above trivially better than coercer (IMO) to give us the same regen would just enrage the coercers, and rightfully so, why even have two classes.

Priam Pendragon

08-16-2011, 03:35 PM

<cite>Flamewing@Butcherblock wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Priam Pendragon wrote:</cite><blockquote>I think most high end raiders know they do about the same dps in raids, and that coercers smoke illies in mana reg.</blockquote>Ummm.... LARGE "no" to both those statements. Generally illy's smoke coercers in DPS on raids (generally coercers are, on average, between 20-50k lower on dps than any illy I've ever seen, myself included). Also illy's generally have the highest power replenishment on any raid I've ever seen (either myself or the other illy in my guild ALWAYS top the power replenishment parse on our raids).This info correction brought to you by a high end raider.</blockquote>umm yeah, let me guess, you haven't fought a HM Tormax or anything past that either yeah?

Flamewi

08-16-2011, 03:40 PM

Actually yeah. i've been in tons of fights with massive power drain issues associated with them (Drundar raid zones come to mind as even nastier imo) and still the same result.

Priam Pendragon

08-16-2011, 03:45 PM

<cite>Flamewing@Butcherblock wrote:</cite><blockquote>Actually yeah. i've been in tons of fights with massive power drain issues associated with them (Drundar raid zones come to mind as even nastier imo) and still the same result.</blockquote>Wait you've fought in a HM drunder mana drain fight? I doubt it, because as far as I know no-one has killed Hragold the Frenzied which is the first HM drunder mana drain that I'm aware of.Is there any Illusionist who disagrees with me on our serious need for much better group mana regen that has at the VERY LEAST KILLED HM TORMAX?

Flamewi

08-16-2011, 03:46 PM

I said "HM" Drundar? *eyes his previous post* Nope. Didn't think so. Whew! <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" />You are seriously mistaken on the mana drain fights in Drundar btw. Sullon's and Tallon's raid zones have some NAAAAAAAAAAASTY mana drains in them.

Buzzing

08-16-2011, 03:49 PM

<cite>Priam Pendragon wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Buzzing@Butcherblock wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Priam Pendragon wrote:</cite><blockquote>Coercers and Illy DPS is virtually tied, our mana reg isn't. To me that is wrong, Illy's should have better in group mana regen and approxiametly the same dps still.</blockquote>how about asking for about the same regen... saying you should have more just seems selfish... Your roles in raid are diferent and tbh the corcer groups are generally needing the power more anyway...</blockquote>I'd love to have the same regen abilities, but I'd settle for not having to rely on coercers for help on the HM draining encounters. Illy dps is as posted above trivially better than coercer (IMO) to give us the same regen would just enrage the coercers, and rightfully so, why even have two classes.</blockquote>DPS groups vs Tank groups. At least that is what I am seeing atm for the two classes being diferent.

Priam Pendragon

08-16-2011, 03:52 PM

<cite>Flamewing@Butcherblock wrote:</cite><blockquote>I said "HM" Drundar? *eyes his previous post* Nope. Didn't think so. Whew! <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" />You are seriously mistaken on the mana drain fights in Drundar btw. Sullon's and Tallon's raid zones have some NAAAAAAAAAAASTY mana drains in them.</blockquote>I never said anything about easy mode "EM" being any kind of issue, EM is nothing, I've specifically mentioned HM everytime. Congradulations on being able to keep your group feed on EM. Do HM Tormax at the least then come back and we can talk.HM Tormax, anyone?

Fitz

08-16-2011, 03:56 PM

Stop sounding like emotional children; bickering is unproductive. Fact: The illy has better buffs and dps. Fact: The coercer has better regen. If you give the illy better regen, no one will use a coercer in raid. The earlier claim that only one group needs an illy is laughable; if your raid doesn't run with three illies, you are losing out on dps. If the illy wants a power buff, then they need a buff or dps nerf. Otherwise you have two enchanters, both equivalent power regen, but one happens to dps higher and have more useful buffs. I wonder which one would be chosen for raid.

Flamewi

08-16-2011, 03:59 PM

<cite>Fitz wrote:</cite><blockquote>Stop sounding like emotional children; bickering is unproductive. Fact: The illy has better buffs and dps. Fact: The coercer has better regen. If you give the illy better regen, no one will use a coercer in raid. The earlier claim that only one group needs an illy is laughable; if your raid doesn't run with three illies, you are losing out on dps. If the illy wants a power buff, then they need a buff or dps nerf. Otherwise you have two enchanters, both equivalent power regen, but one happens to dps higher and have more useful buffs. I wonder which one would be chosen for raid. </blockquote>Still disagree (personal opinion only based on tons of ACT data over the last 6 years) but 100% agree with everything else. Illy's own on raids and not running with a bunch of them is, for sure, very silly. You just screw over your overall raid dps quite a bit if you don't.

Priam Pendragon

08-16-2011, 04:01 PM

<cite>Fitz wrote:</cite><blockquote>Stop sounding like emotional children; bickering is unproductive. Fact: The illy has better buffs and dps. Fact: The coercer has better regen. If you give the illy better regen, no one will use a coercer in raid. The earlier claim that only one group needs an illy is laughable; if your raid doesn't run with three illies, you are losing out on dps. If the illy wants a power buff, then they need a buff or dps nerf. Otherwise you have two enchanters, both equivalent power regen, but one happens to dps higher and have more useful buffs. I wonder which one would be chosen for raid. </blockquote>Sounds like an uninformed coercer. Have you killed HM Tormax?Alright, anyone got HM Tormax down passed 90% disagree?

Encantador

08-16-2011, 04:12 PM

<cite>Priam Pendragon wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Encantador wrote:</cite><blockquote>Amusing. I think most people would say that Illu's do more DPS than coercers and have far better buffs. Coercers have better power regen. But for you thats wrong. Coercer cannot be better than Illu at anything. Well equalise the power regen abilities and you will have 4 illusionist and 0 coercers instead of the 3 illu and 1 coercer that lots of guilds run with now.</blockquote>I think most high end raiders know they do about the same dps in raids, and that coercers smoke illies in mana reg. There is only 1 spot really for a permanent illy, and thats in the mage group. Our job is primarily mana regeneration. I tell you what, gives us all your mana reg abilities and you can have the extra 5% dps and be dependent on us to feed you. No deal? go figure.</blockquote>All our mana regen abilities in exchange for yours plus giving us 5% more DPS than illusionists plus boosting our buffs to be way better than illusionists. I probably would accept that deal. I don't mind either way. So long as we are different but equally valued I am happy. Now comparing us to other mages and other members of the raid, there I am not so happy <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />. We (enchanters) don't do enough DPS by a long way.As for 1 permanent illu ????? wow we live in different universes. If we have a bad attendance day and only 1 illu logs on, we will sit a good inq so she can play her alt illu (no disrespect to her but the alt illu is nothing like as well geared). They are not there just for their power regen either. There is always room for 2 illusionists. I would have to ask the raid leaders if they would like to run 3.I feel quite lucky to be in a guild that regularly runs 2 coercers. Though in part thats because we can't recruit enough illusionists. The demand for illusionists is noticeably greater than the supply.

Priam Pendragon

08-16-2011, 05:04 PM

<cite>Encantador wrote:</cite><blockquote>All our mana regen abilities in exchange for yours plus giving us 5% more DPS than illusionists plus boosting our buffs to be way better than illusionists. I probably would accept that deal. I don't mind either way. So long as we are different but equally valued I am happy. Now comparing us to other mages and other members of the raid, there I am not so happy <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" />. We (enchanters) don't do enough DPS by a long way.As for 1 permanent illu ????? wow we live in different universes. If we have a bad attendance day and only 1 illu logs on, we will sit a good inq so she can play her alt illu (no disrespect to her but the alt illu is nothing like as well geared). They are not there just for their power regen either. There is always room for 2 illusionists. I would have to ask the raid leaders if they would like to run 3.I feel quite lucky to be in a guild that regularly runs 2 coercers. Though in part thats because we can't recruit enough illusionists. The demand for illusionists is noticeably greater than the supply.</blockquote>Really you'd take the deal? You'd rather have a trivial amount better dps and TimeWarp than continue raiding? Is your guild willing to farm EZ mode and HM up to Tormax forever? If not your going to regret taking that deal unless you like sitting for the challenging encounters.Listen, I don't disagree with any of you on the EM content. You could run 4 illy's or 4 coercers and be just fine, what I'm talking about is specifically the persistant long mana draining fights that start with HM Tormax.Being sad about the other mage dps compared to ours is really silly. If you got into this class for any reasons other than mana reg and utility you probably made a mistake in class selection.Now onto the way better buffs aurgement.. make your case. Timewarp is going to be your only real arguement of any significance due to stat inflation, and i'll conceed it's nice spike damage (for certain groups, and on trash and short burn fights), and go..

Encantador

08-16-2011, 08:42 PM

I really do not want an argument. So whatever you post after this will be the final word. I will not be posting in this thread again.I started by suggesting illu's needed a boost in their out of group power regen and coercers a boost to their personal DPS. You seem to think illusionists need a large power regen boost and should be the best at everything. So lets agree to differ.BTW illusionist buffs compared to coercerThe biggy Time warp, group SDA, extra triggers, extra ticks on heals/dots/reactives versus well probably Coercive Healing 15% to most heals/wards for one healer.Haste versus DPS are a wash though haste looks more useful after 61 ... whatever, nothing to argue about.attached to these (if coercer spends 5AA just for the CB)10% DA versus 5CBSynergism = small deaggro + damage + 5CB. Coercer nothing really perhaps 5CB on Peaceful Link if coercer spends 5AA just for this (deaggro on PL not worth anything since troub + personal deaggro capped for classes that might want it).Arms of Imagination %age chance to AE autoattack versus nothing.Illusory Arms 25% DA versus nothing.STR/WIS/AGI buff on Flash of Brilliance versus nothing.Time Compression, currently almost useless, 10% reuse/20% cast speed/40% recovery single target versus 15% casting speed (on Breeze hence group) which is completely useless.Coercers do have 4 more buffs...Enraging Demeanor hate boost and hate transfer with 10% potency. This plus mana regen plus CH are the reasons we are still wanted in the MT group.Coercive Shout a highly situational aggro boost that virtually no coercer specs.Intellectual Remedy a healer boost that again very very few coercers will spec other than to see if they can detect an affect.Siren's Stare single target small damage proc added to single target taunts.Since I am no expert on Illusionists there are problably more illusionist rune/mythical/AA buffs.Comparing the two ... coercers offer DPS classes virtually nothing (just a few CB) and one tank and one healer something noticeable. Illusionists offer everyone something.

Priam Pendragon

08-16-2011, 10:25 PM

I don't want to argue either, I'm just asking for better in group mana (not better than coercer, just better to where we aren't dependent on coercers for the hard mode mana fights). I'm fine with coercers having more personal dps, just not to the desparity of the last xpac again. (Yes I remember Illy's doing more before that, but it's actually really close this time). I'd actually like to see lots of our enchanter line aa's fixed which is what i posted earler. Mana was just what everyone picked up on.

ShadowMunkie

08-17-2011, 03:45 AM

<cite>Priam Pendragon wrote:</cite><blockquote>I don't want to argue either, I'm just asking for better in group mana (not better than coercer, just better to where we aren't dependent on coercers for the hard mode mana fights). I'm fine with coercers having more personal dps, just not to the desparity of the last xpac again. (Yes I remember Illy's doing more before that, but it's actually really close this time). I'd actually like to see lots of our enchanter line aa's fixed which is what i posted earler. Mana was just what everyone picked up on.</blockquote>I think all enchatners agree that several of our abilities need fixing still, there is a ton of AA in the illusionist AND coercer tree dealing with stuns, stifles, and mezzes that need to be changed or enhanced further.In all honesty, if Manasoul worked correctly illusionist's wouldn't need to rely on coercer's as much, it would add the single needed ability during the downtime of savante. Right now as it stands there is a 30 second window where savante is undergoing recast and I don't have anything up to reduce power cost/replenish it.Other changes that need to be made is Savant's Insight needs to be changed. Its only gotten because its needed to get Volitile Magic. No one in their right mind would choose its enhancement just like no one chooses perpetuality's ehancement. They looked good on paper but, failed when added to the game.

Priam Pendragon

08-17-2011, 04:34 AM

<cite>Senkai@Everfrost wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Priam Pendragon wrote:</cite><blockquote>I don't want to argue either, I'm just asking for better in group mana (not better than coercer, just better to where we aren't dependent on coercers for the hard mode mana fights). I'm fine with coercers having more personal dps, just not to the desparity of the last xpac again. (Yes I remember Illy's doing more before that, but it's actually really close this time). I'd actually like to see lots of our enchanter line aa's fixed which is what i posted earler. Mana was just what everyone picked up on.</blockquote>I think all enchatners agree that several of our abilities need fixing still, there is a ton of AA in the illusionist AND coercer tree dealing with stuns, stifles, and mezzes that need to be changed or enhanced further.In all honesty, if Manasoul worked correctly illusionist's wouldn't need to rely on coercer's as much, it would add the single needed ability during the downtime of savante. Right now as it stands there is a 30 second window where savante is undergoing recast and I don't have anything up to reduce power cost/replenish it.Other changes that need to be made is Savant's Insight needs to be changed. Its only gotten because its needed to get Volitile Magic. No one in their right mind would choose its enhancement just like no one chooses perpetuality's ehancement. They looked good on paper but, failed when added to the game.</blockquote>Totally agree, and yeah getting manasoul to work as written would help big time.

Faeward

08-17-2011, 05:10 AM

I really think Manatap should restore more power.

Priam Pendragon

08-17-2011, 01:28 PM

<cite>Inglip@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>I really think Manatap should restore more power.</blockquote>Yep, extract mana, manatap and the mythical should all be increased to accomadate inflated mana.

bmg

08-17-2011, 07:09 PM

<cite>Senkai@Everfrost wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Priam Pendragon wrote:</cite><blockquote>I don't want to argue either, I'm just asking for better in group mana (not better than coercer, just better to where we aren't dependent on coercers for the hard mode mana fights). I'm fine with coercers having more personal dps, just not to the desparity of the last xpac again. (Yes I remember Illy's doing more before that, but it's actually really close this time). I'd actually like to see lots of our enchanter line aa's fixed which is what i posted earler. Mana was just what everyone picked up on.</blockquote>In all honesty, if Manasoul worked correctly illusionist's wouldn't need to rely on coercer's as much, it would add the single needed ability during the downtime of savante. Right now as it stands there is a 30 second window where savante is undergoing recast and I don't have anything up to reduce power cost/replenish it.</blockquote>Ok..so what am I missing? Only 30 second window where savante is down? The reuse timer doesn't start until savante is finished, unlike Flash of Brilliance where reuse starts immediately. Am I missing something?

Priam Pendragon

08-18-2011, 12:06 AM

<cite>Lenarr@Lucan DLere wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Senkai@Everfrost wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Priam Pendragon wrote:</cite><blockquote>I don't want to argue either, I'm just asking for better in group mana (not better than coercer, just better to where we aren't dependent on coercers for the hard mode mana fights). I'm fine with coercers having more personal dps, just not to the desparity of the last xpac again. (Yes I remember Illy's doing more before that, but it's actually really close this time). I'd actually like to see lots of our enchanter line aa's fixed which is what i posted earler. Mana was just what everyone picked up on.</blockquote>In all honesty, if Manasoul worked correctly illusionist's wouldn't need to rely on coercer's as much, it would add the single needed ability during the downtime of savante. Right now as it stands there is a 30 second window where savante is undergoing recast and I don't have anything up to reduce power cost/replenish it.</blockquote>Ok..so what am I missing? Only 30 second window where savante is down? The reuse timer doesn't start until savante is finished, unlike Flash of Brilliance where reuse starts immediately. Am I missing something?</blockquote>Not sure where the 30 seconds came from, I just assumed he was talking about a rotation of his Savant, Manacloak and Channelled Focus. But yeah, it's recast starts when it expires not when cast.

Glenolas

08-18-2011, 01:55 AM

<cite>Senkai@Everfrost wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite><blockquote>Right now as it stands there is a 30 second window where savante is undergoing recast and I don't have anything up to reduce power cost/replenish it.</blockquote></blockquote>The best you'll ever get the dead time between back to back Savantes is 75 seconds. (100% reuse on 150 sec base). Unlike most spells, Savant's reuse countdown does NOT start at the moment it fires, but at the moment its duration is up.So you get 55s up, 75 to 150 down, depending on your ability reuse.

ShadowMunkie

08-18-2011, 02:45 AM

<cite>Glenolas wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Senkai@Everfrost wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite><blockquote>Right now as it stands there is a 30 second window where savante is undergoing recast and I don't have anything up to reduce power cost/replenish it.</blockquote></blockquote>The best you'll ever get the dead time between back to back Savantes is 75 seconds. (100% reuse on 150 sec base). Unlike most spells, Savant's reuse countdown does NOT start at the moment it fires, but at the moment its duration is up.So you get 55s up, 75 to 150 down, depending on your ability reuse.</blockquote>This but, its you can manager power with Mana Cloak and Channeled Focus between that time. IE: You cast Savante, wait until its down, cast Channeled Focus, wait until its down cast Mana Cloak, and normally the mob is close to dead by the time the second Savante is down.