Paladin GU 61 (power is not the issue) [Archive]

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cschror

08-11-2011, 09:41 PM

If all you can find wrong with the Paladin class is a power cost of healing spells then you need to do a few things.1. Make a Paladin2. Put gear on it.3. Join a Raid Guild.4. Try to tank something.Then you can watch yourself go splat and fix things like theStoneskin (for survival, it needs to absorb all damage)Our ward (how about instant cast and 4 times bigger)Holy Ground (much more hate and 6 positional)Healing spells (group heal is the worst, 10 times bigger is closer to what it needs)Defensive Stance (needs parry, more defense, more armor mitigation, add +crit mitigation)Offensive Stance (needs more DPS, a lot more, add +crit bonus, + potency)And.... while you are at it check out the severe lack of DPS the Paladin class has. Paladins do less DPS than ALL other tank classes by almost half.Here is an idea. How about CURE CURSE SELF for Paladins.If you really want to make Paladins happy. Why not add Dual Wield?Go ahead and make fun of the post. You know Paladins are a dying class.

Odys

08-12-2011, 12:01 AM

The group heal could be at most multiplied by 2, otherwise due to fast recast you will run even hard instance with paladin being MT and healer.I agree that the paladin defensive stance is very weak when compared with the berzeker one, may be this is intended because we have partial immunites (DA and others). But it's clear that our mitigatiion is quite lower.i don't care about the offensive stance, around 60 i understood that it was only increasing weapon skill and adding a bit of dps (due to str buf) but that it was increasing the damage taken by a lot. I never used since even when i solo.I don't have much aggor issue and my dps is fine ... but ok it's my very first tank and i'm not yet raiding. But our x2 was a paladin and we completed the x2 2 monthes before the other half of our x4 raid who was using a sk. It seems to me that the paladin is very able to survive (Divine aura, wall of mana, stonewall, crusader faith, lay on hand ...).

Controlor

08-12-2011, 02:18 AM

First off there is already a paladin thread concerning GU61 updates. So i am sure this thread will either be merged locked or abandoned. However your comments are a bit over what they realistically should be.<cite>cschror wrote:</cite><blockquote>If all you can find wrong with the Paladin class is a power cost of healing spells then you need to do a few things.1. Make a Paladin2. Put gear on it.3. Join a Raid Guild.4. Try to tank something.Then you can watch yourself go splat and fix things like theStoneskin (for survival, it needs to absorb all damage)-- Already mentioned but yes need a proper stoneskin.Our ward (how about instant cast and 4 times bigger)-- No, all that needs to happen is that the AA that is supposed to increase the ward amount by 20% needs to actually increase it by 20% (not the current 6.7%).Holy Ground (much more hate and 6 positional)-- Realistically would be 3 to 5 hate positions as an initial hit which would be good. You dont need to increase the hate amount on it really either.Healing spells (group heal is the worst, 10 times bigger is closer to what it needs)-- As the person above me mentioned 2 times as much would be the max it is fast cast and fast recast and 2X would put it at about a 10k heal. 10X as much would be unrealistic because would be a 50k heal.Defensive Stance (needs parry, more defense, more armor mitigation, add +crit mitigation)-- CM wouldnt be put on our defensive stance (unless it was added to the other plate tank defensive stances, ignoring brawlers because they have strikethrough immunity). More mit would be nice as well though.Offensive Stance (needs more DPS, a lot more, add +crit bonus, + potency)-- They wouldnt add CB to our offensive, nor dps, nor haste, however potency may do and would be for that.And.... while you are at it check out the severe lack of DPS the Paladin class has. Paladins do less DPS than ALL other tank classes by almost half.-- Guards fall under our dps and depending on the group set up so does berzerker. However this may change with the change to +skill increase stuff. In which case paladins may drop to the lowest end. If that happens things need a bit more changing.Here is an idea. How about CURE CURSE SELF for Paladins.-- Healers would complain WAY to much for that to happen (as would every other tank).If you really want to make Paladins happy. Why not add Dual Wield?Go ahead and make fun of the post. You know Paladins are a dying class.</blockquote>

Talathion

08-12-2011, 02:24 AM

<cite>cschror wrote:</cite><blockquote>If all you can find wrong with the Paladin class is a power cost of healing spells then you need to do a few things.1. Make a Paladin2. Put gear on it.3. Join a Raid Guild.4. Try to tank something.Then you can watch yourself go splat and fix things like theStoneskin (for survival, it needs to absorb all damage)Our ward (how about instant cast and 4 times bigger)Holy Ground (much more hate and 6 positional)Healing spells (group heal is the worst, 10 times bigger is closer to what it needs)Defensive Stance (needs parry, more defense, more armor mitigation, add +crit mitigation)Offensive Stance (needs more DPS, a lot more, add +crit bonus, + potency)And.... while you are at it check out the severe lack of DPS the Paladin class has. Paladins do less DPS than ALL other tank classes by almost half.Here is an idea. How about CURE CURSE SELF for Paladins.If you really want to make Paladins happy. Why not add Dual Wield?Go ahead and make fun of the post. You know Paladins are a dying class.</blockquote>I think the issue is all the bad players playing paladin atm.I bolded the statements that are not true in red.I bolded all the LoL statements in green.Quit complaining about your class, Paladins do MORE DPS on single targets then berserkers do, and with a shield, and you want to do more?! You have amends, the best hate tool in the game, and you also have one of the best mythicals in the game for raiding.Learn to play and abuse your class and role, enough said.

Controlor

08-12-2011, 02:48 AM

<cite>Talathion@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>cschror wrote:</cite><blockquote>If all you can find wrong with the Paladin class is a power cost of healing spells then you need to do a few things.1. Make a Paladin2. Put gear on it.3. Join a Raid Guild.4. Try to tank something.Then you can watch yourself go splat and fix things like theStoneskin (for survival, it needs to absorb all damage)Our ward (how about instant cast and 4 times bigger)Holy Ground (much more hate and 6 positional)Healing spells (group heal is the worst, 10 times bigger is closer to what it needs)Defensive Stance (needs parry, more defense, more armor mitigation, add +crit mitigation)Offensive Stance (needs more DPS, a lot more, add +crit bonus, + potency)And.... while you are at it check out the severe lack of DPS the Paladin class has. Paladins do less DPS than ALL other tank classes by almost half.Here is an idea. How about CURE CURSE SELF for Paladins.If you really want to make Paladins happy. Why not add Dual Wield?Go ahead and make fun of the post. You know Paladins are a dying class.</blockquote>I think the issue is all the bad players playing paladin atm.I bolded the statements that are not true in red.I bolded all the LoL statements in green.Quit complaining about your class, Paladins do MORE DPS on single targets then berserkers do, and with a shield, and you want to do more?! You have amends, the best hate tool in the game, and you also have one of the best mythicals in the game for raiding.Learn to play and abuse your class and role, enough said.</blockquote>Will people seriously get off this trip. Amends has not been a factor in raiding for years. It is only useful if you as a paladin are severly undergeared vs dpsers in heroic content and you dont have other hate transfers. It is very limited in its power. The cap of 50% hate transfer means in raids with coerc/dirge/assasin you are only getting about 9% hate transfer out of it.The myth buff is ok but it is not one of the best. the 10% dmg reduc is melee only (which is not the vast majority of damage done) and the 10% heal only heals you back if you take damage, like any heal wards will prevent the heal. So yah that is also a false statement.However i agree that the red is false and the green is way over the top.

Talathion

08-12-2011, 02:56 AM

<cite>Controlor wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Talathion@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>cschror wrote:</cite><blockquote>If all you can find wrong with the Paladin class is a power cost of healing spells then you need to do a few things.1. Make a Paladin2. Put gear on it.3. Join a Raid Guild.4. Try to tank something.Then you can watch yourself go splat and fix things like theStoneskin (for survival, it needs to absorb all damage)Our ward (how about instant cast and 4 times bigger)Holy Ground (much more hate and 6 positional)Healing spells (group heal is the worst, 10 times bigger is closer to what it needs)Defensive Stance (needs parry, more defense, more armor mitigation, add +crit mitigation)Offensive Stance (needs more DPS, a lot more, add +crit bonus, + potency)And.... while you are at it check out the severe lack of DPS the Paladin class has. Paladins do less DPS than ALL other tank classes by almost half.Here is an idea. How about CURE CURSE SELF for Paladins.If you really want to make Paladins happy. Why not add Dual Wield?Go ahead and make fun of the post. You know Paladins are a dying class.</blockquote>I think the issue is all the bad players playing paladin atm.I bolded the statements that are not true in red.I bolded all the LoL statements in green.Quit complaining about your class, Paladins do MORE DPS on single targets then berserkers do, and with a shield, and you want to do more?! You have amends, the best hate tool in the game, and you also have one of the best mythicals in the game for raiding.Learn to play and abuse your class and role, enough said.</blockquote>Will people seriously get off this trip. Amends has not been a factor in raiding for years. It is only useful if you as a paladin are severly undergeared vs dpsers in heroic content and you dont have other hate transfers. It is very limited in its power. The cap of 50% hate transfer means in raids with coerc/dirge/assasin you are only getting about 9% hate transfer out of it.The myth buff is ok but it is not one of the best. the 10% dmg reduc is melee only (which is not the vast majority of damage done) and the 10% heal only heals you back if you take damage, like any heal wards will prevent the heal. So yah that is also a false statement.However i agree that the red is false and the green is way over the top.</blockquote>I didn't say it didn't have its drawbacks, I said it was the best tool in the game to control hate, am I wrong?

Controlor

08-12-2011, 03:23 AM

In certain select situations it may be the best, however these are "limited" situations. In terms of raiding no. Pretty much the situation where it may be the best is if the paladin is undergeared or has massively less dps than the top dps class in group (heaven forbid way less than the top 2 dps in group). Though this situation prob happends a lot with poorly geared (read PQ geared) paladins grouping with raid geared locks. In this case even with amends the lock will prob still rip agro.

Vulkan_NTooki

08-12-2011, 03:37 AM

I wouldnt mind dual wielding.. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Not because it should increase my dps by much, but because I fancy dual wielding.. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Talathion

08-12-2011, 04:07 AM

<cite>Vulkan_NTooki wrote:</cite><blockquote>I wouldnt mind dual wielding.. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" /> Not because it should increase my dps by much, but because I fancy dual wielding.. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" /></blockquote>You can dual weild as soon as I have Knight's Stance + my Combat arts did 2x more damage to be more in line with yours.

Maergoth

08-12-2011, 04:44 AM

The paladin class currently has 3 major flaws.1. Spike Damage / One ShotsShadowknights have many more saves they can use, as well as two more DI triggers. They can preserve those DI triggers much easier by rotating saves, sacrificing one trigger, saves come back up, sacrifice another trigger, saves again, final trigger, DI, saves, DI. This pattern is similar for other classes. Guardians have stoneskins to prevent these absolutely massive frontal AOEs. Brawlers have more saves than I can even count. Paladin saves are so weak we have to use multiple saves at once, AND only have one DI trigger. Having one less save translates to us dying three rounds of AOES earlier. Not just one round earlier. We have zero rotation potential, and none of our heals fix thix problem at all.The solution: Synergize with our passive hategain and change Devout Sacrament into a channeled 5s duration stoneskin. It can completely stun us for all I care. We need an actual stoneskin on a reasonable recast to even remotely scratch the survivability requirements of the expansion. Warriors are monsters of physical damage tanking, there's no reason Crusaders can't have some advantage versus these ridiculous elemental, noxious, and arcane AoEs. Put magic damage reduction on our defensive stance or something. Equally useful, but for crusaders in general, would be to allow our Int line reflect to be reuse modifiable. It's currently hard locked at 3 minutes flat. AoEs are every 45 seconds or so on average, meaning it's up every 4 sets of AOES or so. Change the heal potency end line to reuse reduction down to a minute and thirty seconds. Divine Aura should be changed to damage reduction, or work on the upper 50% of damage instead of only the lower 50%. Either way, the recast needs to be bumped down. Our ward is underpowered as ever, and needs to be higher value. Lower recast WILL NOT even touch this problem, just double or triple the amount and fix the AA for it.2. Lack of Spike Aggro and VersatilityThis becomes less of an issue if the above gets dealt with. Currently, our hate generation is hinged solidly on amends. This used to be fine, but now everyone is capping hate transfers. Where amends gave us the ability to control the direction of our hate generation, now we absolutely have to put it on the highest dps in the group and have them beating on the same target as everyone else. Sigil of Heroism is a big purple "generate slightly more aggro than normal" button. Our versatility is practically gone, and should that passive transfer hate not go as planned, we're in big trouble.Guardians have reinforcement to do exactly what they need it to. Brawlers have all kinds of unique hate manipulation tools. Our holy ground is a DPS buff that I can't use at will, and it's an aggro tool that doesn't get aggro at will. It's mediocre all around, and while it needed nerfed from the 24 positions it used to be, it's misplaced. Without a solid, unique aggro snap, we can't recover from memwipes or deaths at all. They are the absolute bane of our existence. Our only option is to stack up on so much virulent ire procs that we can't actually use our AOEs or DPS WITHOUT getting aggro. inb4 put it on your bow. You try that, let me know how well it works. I would be fine with dropping the positions and aggro altogether, and just modifying our single target and encounter taunts to have strong positionals for the duration. Brawlers get something like this. This problem has a million solutions. We need positionals, and unique versatility. That's that.3. Non-Tanking Utility / DPSFrankly, every single class in the game is getting more and more individually useful. Summoners got their big DPS boost, Shadowknights still have their bloodletters to lean on, Guardians are rivaling brawlers in the strength and number of their temps and saves. Oh, and Brawlers have combat mastery which instantly lands them in the scout group.Paladins, however, have gotten less useful. They have made our heals better since the last time this was all discussed. However, with the massive boost to HP pool since then, they have fallen back into place. We don't need higher values, we need unique tools. The whole problem with the Paladin class is the lack of uniqueness. Our 10 second raid wide buff lost its lustre as being worthy of jcap. Sure, it still helps, but 10 potency and crit bonus is much less noticeable with the huge influx of those stats on every piece of gear.We aren't particularly useful. We have no contributions to the raid that anyone cares about. Nothing worth attaching a macro for. Nothing that is missed when we're playing a different game instead of raiding as a mediocre class. Our DPS is bottom of the barrel, despite the workarounds such as bowing which are getting squashed. Lay hands is an ongoing joke, not because it's useless. Rather, because saving a random scout or mage who is forced to tank following a one-shot paladin and inability to regain control of the mob is the most useful thing the paladin has done all raid. We need utility. We don't need DPS. I'm going to catch flak for this, but I don't care. To be wanted in a raid is a great thing. Our mythical clicky is absolutely worthless. Convert it into the mage equivalent of Combat Mastery so we can at least belong in a group. I like that idea, heard it in Paladin chat. Have it apply to priests too, so it can act as a pseudo save when things get dicy. We need group based utility, and an over-all rehashing of our current abilities. The potency/crit bonus has to be fixed to scale like EVERY OTHER EQUIVALENT ENDLINE. Crusader's Faith giving hit rate bonuses is virtually worthless. Granting huge amount of weapon/casting skills would be more useful. Raid read hit rates are close to 100%. Our DPS can stay the same as long as the hate issues, utility and survivability issues above are addressed.The changes put through on test virtually ignore all of this. Power consumption is definitely not the issue. A heal on interecede.. is creative, but useless. Arcane mit debuff on the ward may improve raid parse, but with a 10 second duration it isn't useful or wanted. I'm not saying our class is currently incapable. I'm definitely not saying we can't perform in specific situations. However, every other class is getting boosted. We are maintaining mediocrity because our abilities all scale poorly with itemization and their uniqueness is being distributed to other classes. Summoners are getting a transfer with the update. Glorious transfer capping for everyone. WE NEED UNIQUENESS. We need to be desireable, and we need to excel at SOMETHING.I happen to be a self-proclaimed authority on the class in general, and have enough of a grasp on current end-game raiding and the game around me to know that these issues do exist and need to be addressed. Preferrably before we become the next ranger or berserker. Oh, and fix berserkers too.

cschror

08-12-2011, 06:38 PM

Maergoth is only pointing out the most important complaints. My point was that Dev's need to play the class to fix it. I do not think a dev played a paladin since LU19. The class is fundamentally screwed up and needs to be fixed or eliminate the class all together.