GU 61 - 08/11: Guardian Changes

[aislynn00]

<p>First off, I haven't been able to actually test these changes on the test server yet (I'm at work currently), so my observations are based on the descriptions in the test update notes.</p><blockquote><p>Enhance: Rescue now also improves the range of Rescue.</p></blockquote><p>Better than nothing, but Rescue is already the longest range CA guardians have (aside from our two basic taunts.)  How about changing the ability to Enhance: Cry of the Warrior, which adds 1 hate position to Cry of the Warrior per rank and renders it irresistible at the max rank (just like Rescue)?</p><p>Alternatively, drop Enhance: Rescue for Enhance: Taunts, which increases the hate generated by our two taunts by 5% per rank while rendering them irresistible at the max rank?</p><blockquote><p>Enhance: Sentry Watch now also improves the radius of Sentry Watch.</p></blockquote><p>Assuming the radius improvement is at least 3m per rank, this is a very welcome change, enough to cause me to invest the full 5 AA points. </p><p>If it is less than 3m, on the other hand, the ability should be changed to afford at the very least that figure per rank (resulting in 35 m radius at the max rank.)</p><blockquote><p>Enhance: Tower of Stone now also reduces the power cost of Tower of Stone.</p></blockquote><p>This change completely misses the mark, I'm sorry to say.  Given that ToS is able to be used at most once every 60 seconds, any power cost reduction is irrelevant.</p><p>Instead, I suggest you make ToS insta-cast at the final rank, or at least drop its base cast time to 0.25.  This is entirely in line with the damage prevention abilities other fighters have, especially considering this is supposed to be the guardian's forte.</p><p>As another alternative, Enhance: ToS could add a small buff to the guardian at the termination of ToS which affords, say, 3% damage reduction per rank for 15 sec (max of 15% damage reduciton.)</p><blockquote><p>Enhance: Guardian Sphere now also improves the duration of Guardian Sphere.</p></blockquote><p>Assuming the duration improvement is 2 sec per rank or better, this constitutes a nice change.</p><blockquote><p>Enhance: Reinforcement's final rank will allow Reinforcement to trigger when the Guardian uses a hostile spell, such as a taunt.</p></blockquote><p>I don't see many guardians investing points in Enhance: Reinforcement because of this change. </p><p>Reinforcement lasts 13 sec.  In that time frame, using only auto-attacks and CA's, you are already able to go from the bottom of the hate list to the very top.  Being able to gain another three positions due to the three taunts that you could squeeze in isn't particularly attractive.</p><p>Much better would be adding some sort of worthwhile buff to the guardian for the duration of Reinforcement, for instance 3% Flurry per rank or 2% Damage Reduction per rank.</p>

[slippery]

<p>Solo I have 38k power. Tower of Stone costs 79 to cast. I use .002% power when I cast it. That enhancement in no way makes the AA any more useful. Allowing reinforcement to proc on taunts really doesn't help me at all. At the final rank have it add an extra position and we might be talking. I don't mind extra Range on rescue. Being able to get something from farther away is always helpful. Sentry Watch and Guardian Sphere I'll have to log in to see actual numbers before I can really comment.</p>

[Brildean]

<p>The tower of stone they should have added more stoneskins per point spent.. not a power reduction cost.  This is hardly overpowering. 4 triggers at master spell and 9 triggers with 5 aa points spent.  Mobs hit fast now and ae's come fast. this would bring this spell from lvl 55 to dov era.</p>

[Talathion]

<p>You guys should..not..post feedback without first seeing the changes.</p><p>Reinforcement may proc on ever 2-3 taunts, making it SICK for all you know.</p><p>Currently everyone on test is a monk...</p>

[Brildean]

<p>on a buff that last 13 seconds.. an enhacnement to make it proc on taunts. it already procs on Taunting blows, so only thing it doen'st proc on is provoke and shout currently.  Spending 5 aa's to have it proc on 2 taunts isn't so awesome as it sounds.</p>

[Yimway]

<p><cite>Karnos@Guk wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Enhance: Rescue now also improves the range of Rescue.</p><p>Better than nothing</p></blockquote><p>Actually, this is quite nice.  I very much approve this change.  The number of times I need to use rescue and I don't have to move to do so seems to be the minority lately.</p><p><cite>Karnos@Guk wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><blockquote><p>Enhance: Sentry Watch now also improves the radius of Sentry Watch.</p></blockquote><p>Assuming the radius improvement is at least 3m per rank, this is a very welcome change, enough to cause me to invest the full 5 AA points. </p></blockquote><p>Its meh, but SW was always meh.  If we want to enhance sentry watch this is the best option.  If I want the cherry on top, the 5th rank would make it work against all damage =P</p><p><cite>Karnos@Guk wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><blockquote><p>Enhance: Reinforcement's final rank will allow Reinforcement to trigger when the Guardian uses a hostile spell, such as a taunt.</p></blockquote><p>I don't see many guardians investing points in Enhance: Reinforcement because of this change. </p></blockquote><p>I agree this does not change my valuation of the AA at all.  It seems to me it was adjusted to provide benefit for exactly one encounter in game.</p>

[Undorett]

<p><p >To comment to the OP, Cry of the Warrior is already irresistible, this is something implemented that was implemented during DOV Beta.<span>  </span>If you never picked the ability back up after SF, it is now a dandy ability to have for 1 point. Weighing in on the changes: Thumbs up for the Rescue, Sphere, and Sentry Watch changes (assuming as others have the radius on SW and the time additions on Sphere are reasonable) I would like to ask for a slight tweak to either the Sphere or Sphere AA as long as it is being touched already.<span>  </span>Could you increase the duration the stoneskin procs stay on our group mates? <span> </span>Either on the base skill or the AA, for someone reading this who doesn’t know, your group mate must be hit for a stoneskin “counter” to go up on that player, once up it lasts on them for 10 seconds.<span>  </span>In most cases they are not hit within those 10 seconds and the stoneskin “counter” drops off of them without doing a thing.<span>  </span>If this was increased, it would make the skill more beneficial to our group mates. As for the change to Tower of Stone, it is completely unnecessary, as others have stated, we do not have power issues with this skill, we have issues with its cast time (if anything).<span>  </span>This current AA improvement has not increased the AA’s usefulness at all. The enhancement to Reinforcement will not add any additional usefulness to the skill either.<span>  </span>Right now in the 13 seconds the skill lasts, powering through all of your CAs you can get to the top of the hate list.<span>  </span>The only potential improvement I could see in this skill as others have stated would be to have it do 2 positions with 5 points, or have it add some sort of DPS boost while it is active. On an additional note, it looks like every one of our EOF reuse AAs is getting a slight bump to give it some use other than just its reuse with the exception of Unyielding Will.<span>  </span>I would suggest moving the bonus to allow you to not die when casting this skill down to the EOF tree (the only reason anyone puts any AA into the SF version), and removing the AA completely from the SF portion of the tree and replacing it with a new and improved AA of some sort.<span>  </span>Many good ideas have been posted in numerous threads.</p></p>

[Undorett]

At work, anyone have the details on the changes now? Also anyone seen today's update notes? All I have seen is the MA curve starts at 600.

[slippery]

If you are bound and determined to go the route of adding to what can proc reinforcement, make it any combat action. At least let me proc it with ranged attacks as well.

[aislynn00]

<p>I finally managed to check out the AA changes after the devs got the "monk for a day" changes reversed (too bad; I'd much rather have retained the monk AA's, especially their stoneskin ability with half the recast of ToS; who gives a d4mn that it only blocks one hit; you only need it to block one AE, and monks get to block at least twice as many as guardians.)</p><p>At any rate, it was a wholly disappointing test:</p><p>Enhance: Guardian Sphere only adds 1 sec per AA, amounting to a total of 5 sec increased duration for a 5 AA point investment.  That is at best <em>half</em> of what it should have been to make it worth the AA's.  Make it 2 or 2.5 sec per rank (30 or 32.5 sec duration respectively), and it would be reasonable.</p><p>Enhance: Sentry Watch is too weak as well.  Even with a 5 AA point investment, the ability still doesn't extend to 35m, which is the bare minimum range the ability should have in order to be effectively usesful against any giant-sized mobs.  Increase the range bonus to 15 - 20% per AA (i.e., an effect radius of 35 - 40 m at max rank), and the ability would be worthwhile.</p><p>Enhance: Rescue is merely 1m per point, resulting in 15m range at max rank.  At 5 AA points, completely overpriced and underpowered.  I was certain it would have been at least 2.5m per point, giving us one single CA with significant range, even if only on a 5 min timer.  But no.</p><p>Enhance: Tower of Stone still serves no purpose whatsoever after you hit the reuse cap (which happens at 1 or, at most, 2 ranks in decent gear).  Even if you made ToS cost zero power, it wouldn't be worth a single AA.  I still think changing the cast time to 0 - 0.25 sec at max rank or a significant <em>base</em> reuse time reduction (so it can go below 60 sec at max Ability Reuse) are the best ways ahead.  Alternatively, a significant short-term buff triggered when ToS expires.</p><p>Enhance: Reinforcement still completely fails to impress. Letting Reinforcement proc off more things isn't going to make it more attractive; it already procs off every single CA we have, which is more than we are able to spam in 13 sec.  Either make it do <em>more per proc</em> (e.g., +500% to the Reinforcement hate proc, 3000 damage per proc, or +1 hate position per proc at max rank) or add a non-proc buff component to it.</p>

[slippery]

I like the Tower of Stone change. The AA completely removes the power cost, so if you have no power at all (frequently on hard content lately) you can still cast it. That means instead of standing there dieing because the touch ate all your power you can still stoneskin. Other stuff you are overreacting some. Reinforcement needs to proc on ranged attack to so you can turn on ranged auto while chasing the mob. Sentry Watch should be 15%. Guardian Sphere is fine, but it would be nice to get .5-1 second added to the "Stoneskin" proc duration as well as the 1 second duration.

[aislynn00]

<p><cite>slippery wrote:</cite></p><blockquote>I like the Tower of Stone change. The AA completely removes the power cost, so if you have no power at all (frequently on hard content lately) you can still cast it. That means instead of standing there dieing because the touch ate all your power you can still stoneskin. </blockquote><p>That's what Block and Last Man Standing are for.  Besides, I generally want to use ToS before that touch hits, not after.</p><p>Now, the unreasonably long cast time of ToS has killed me more times than I care to remember; an improvement in that regard would be very welcome indeed.  As for balance, why exactly does ToS have to have a 1 sec casting time when monks, brawlers, berserkers, and so on have emergency abilities that either cast extremely fast (0.25 - 0.5 sec base) or are downright instantaneous?</p><blockquote>Other stuff you are overreacting some. Reinforcement needs to proc on ranged attack to so you can turn on ranged auto while chasing the mob. Sentry Watch should be 15%. Guardian Sphere is fine, but it would be nice to get .5-1 second added to the "Stoneskin" proc duration as well as the 1 second duration.</blockquote><p>Reinforcement proc'ing off ranged attacks (and taunts, for that matter) should be the default, not something you have to pay AA for.  Something I'm not even going to be able to take advantage of in most fights certainly isn't worth 5 AA to me.</p><p>As for Sentry Watch, as I mentioned, I would be okay with 15%, but 20% is preferable.  Let's not forget that we're talking about the range on a death preventer, an all-or-nothing change: too short a range and the ability doesn't do anything at all; long enough range, and it does exactly what it is supposed to, nothing more, nothing less--additional range beyond that won't make it better, so adding that extra range can't really tip the balance too far. </p><p>I'm just trying to get the ability tweaked to the point where I know I can rely on it while tanking giants, dragons, and the like with huge hit boxes, which I'm sure Xelgad would agree is reasonable--after all, if the ability doesn't actually do anything, then why do we have it?</p><p>Finally, as for Guardian Sphere, if the duration increase remained at 1 sec per rank and we additionally got 1 - 2 sec added to the duration of the actual stoneskin procs, including those on group members, I would be pleased.  I have been complaining about the duration of those stoneskins on group members ever since the ability was originally revamped, though, so I have all but given up at this point.</p>

[aislynn00]

<p><cite>Talathion@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>You guys should..not..post feedback without first seeing the changes.</p><p>Reinforcement may proc on ever 2-3 taunts, making it SICK for all you know.</p></blockquote><p>You seem to misunderstand the taunt/Reinforcement change: taunts will only proc a hate position increase while the 13-sec duration Reinforcement buff is running. </p><p>You'll be able to get off around three taunts during a 13 sec period, but why would you; you could just cast three combat arts instead and get the same number of hate position increases.</p>

[Talathion]

<p>what it should do is give all taunts a 20% chance to proc reinforcement.</p>

[Grifion]

<p><cite>Talathion@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>what it should do is give all taunts a 20% chance to proc reinforcement.</p></blockquote><p>What? An ability proc another ability? A chance to proc Reinforcement whenever the Guardian uses a taunt? That makes no sense.</p>

[Talathion]

<p><cite>Grifion wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Talathion@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>what it should do is give all taunts a 20% chance to proc reinforcement.</p></blockquote><p>What? An ability proc another ability? A chance to proc Reinforcement whenever the Guardian uses a taunt? That makes no sense.</p></blockquote><p>Yes it does, reinforcement goes off again when ya taunt.</p>

[Undorett]

<p>reinforcement is not maintained all the time, thats like saying when you use your taunts it would have a chance to proc rescue</p>

[Talathion]

<p><cite>Undorett wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>reinforcement is not maintained all the time, thats like saying when you use your taunts it would have a chance to proc rescue</p></blockquote><p>yeah why is that bad?</p><p>You use a taunt, reinforcement procs, the recast goes on it, you can use another taunt and it auto-uses reinforcement again if it procs.</p><p>It basicly passively uses reinforcement for you.</p>

[Yimway]

<p><cite>Karnos@Guk wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Enhance: Guardian Sphere only adds 1 sec per AA, amounting to a total of 5 sec increased duration for a 5 AA point investment.  That is at best <em>half</em> of what it should have been to make it worth the AA's.  Make it 2 or 2.5 sec per rank (30 or 32.5 sec duration respectively), and it would be reasonable.</p></blockquote><p>To be clear this only enhanced the buff not the proc from the buff?</p><p>Adjusting the proc 5 seconds longer would make a huge difference.  Making the buff itself last longer, meh.</p>

[aislynn00]

<p><cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Karnos@Guk wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Enhance: Guardian Sphere only adds 1 sec per AA, amounting to a total of 5 sec increased duration for a 5 AA point investment.  That is at best <em>half</em> of what it should have been to make it worth the AA's.  Make it 2 or 2.5 sec per rank (30 or 32.5 sec duration respectively), and it would be reasonable.</p></blockquote><p>To be clear this only enhanced the buff not the proc from the buff?</p><p>Adjusting the proc 5 seconds longer would make a huge difference.  Making the buff itself last longer, meh.</p></blockquote><p>Indeed, it only improves the duration of Guardian Sphere, not the duration of the stoneskins aforementioned buff procs.  Hence why I consider 5 sec a very minor improvement. </p><p>5 sec additional duration on the stoneskins would make the ability much more effective as a way of lowering the impact of the occasional hard-hitting AE, especially as far as the group is concerned.  Currently, two AE's have to hit within 10 sec for the buff to do anything to help the group, which is the exception rather than the rule.</p><p>Of course, the ideal solution would be adding an initial stoneskin when Guardian Sphere is cast, so you would be able to use it right before an AE and be certain that the group would be protected from the initial hit.</p>

[aislynn00]

<p><cite>Talathion@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Undorett wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>reinforcement is not maintained all the time, thats like saying when you use your taunts it would have a chance to proc rescue</p></blockquote><p>yeah why is that bad?</p><p>You use a taunt, reinforcement procs, the recast goes on it, you can use another taunt and it auto-uses reinforcement again if it procs.</p><p>It basicly passively uses reinforcement for you.</p></blockquote><p>That isn't how it works. </p><p>You proc a hate position increase (not the Reinforcement buff itself) when you cast a taunt <em>only</em> during the 13 sec while Reinforcement is running.</p>

[Yimway]

<p><cite>Karnos@Guk wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Talathion@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>It basicly passively uses reinforcement for you.</p></blockquote><p>That isn't how it works. </p><p>You proc a hate position increase (not the Reinforcement buff itself) when you cast a taunt <em>only</em> during the 13 sec while Reinforcement is running.</p></blockquote><p>Tala needs to refrain talking about things he's never done and has no experience with...</p>