Paladin GU 61 - Arch Heal and others [Archive]

Anurra

08-03-2011, 07:19 PM

Hello,It seems Arch Heal has not been changed in GU 61. Hopefully, it was accidently overlooked, but please, try to find time to look at it as it is almost worthless at the moment.I know the community has some suggestions for it, so I'll let them do the talking.

tsunewolf

08-04-2011, 03:23 AM

Can you fix holy ground while your at it? Our class defining ability that we don't get until lv 80 only adding 1 position is pathetic. I understand 1 position per hit on the recast being over powered and it needed to be fixed, but it was nerfed to nothing more than a dps tool. It's short range and only 1 position makes it near worthless for anything else.

Anurra

08-04-2011, 11:52 AM

<cite>Against@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>Can you fix holy ground while your at it? Our class defining ability that we don't get until lv 80 only adding 1 position is pathetic. I understand 1 position per hit on the recast being over powered and it needed to be fixed, but it was nerfed to nothing more than a dps tool. It's short range and only 1 position makes it near worthless for anything else.</blockquote>Perhaps they could increase the recast time by some amount (25% or whatever) and then add the 1 position per hit component.

Anurra

08-04-2011, 12:01 PM

Here are some additional comments:1. The ward booster AA (4% per level) does not work correctly because wards only receive a third of potency increases. So instead of being 20% it really becomes 6.7% This needs to be fixed.2. Arch Heal: Here are some ideas I found (these are NOT my ideas) on other websites:<ul><li>"change archheal to a stoneskin so that we'll no longer be the only tanks without a stoneskin"</li><li>This is from Boli23's post in the Paladin forum on this site: "This is an endline which is USELESS beyond soloing or small grouping. It should have been changed long ago to enhance all heals rather than add what is a useless heal. Moving the 16% heal potency from TSF in crusader tree to this spot would be ideal. It woudl also allow the cruader tree to be more crusader friendly." See this for more details: <a href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?topic_id=503097" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/...topic_id=503097</a></li><li>Here is another set of ideas from Boli23 (from the Paladin forum on this site) about changing the group heal but maybe some can apply to arch heal? <a href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?topic_id=502150" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/...topic_id=502150</a></li></ul>3. Heretic's Destruction: Make it so it cannot be interrupted.

Talathion

08-04-2011, 01:42 PM

<cite>Lawrs@Permafrost wrote:</cite><blockquote>Here are some additional comments:1. The ward booster AA (4% per level) does not work correctly because wards only receive a third of potency increases. So instead of being 20% it really becomes 6.7% This needs to be fixed.2. Arch Heal: Here are some ideas I found (these are NOT my ideas) on other websites:<ul><li>"change archheal to a stoneskin so that we'll no longer be the only tanks without a stoneskin"</li><li>This is from Boli23's post in the Paladin forum on this site: "This is an endline which is USELESS beyond soloing or small grouping. It should have been changed long ago to enhance all heals rather than add what is a useless heal. Moving the 16% heal potency from TSF in crusader tree to this spot would be ideal. It woudl also allow the cruader tree to be more crusader friendly." See this for more details: <a rel="nofollow" href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?topic_id=503097" target="_blank">http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/...topic_id=503097</a></li><li>Here is another set of ideas from Boli23 (from the Paladin forum on this site) about changing the group heal but maybe some can apply to arch heal? <a rel="nofollow" href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?topic_id=502150" target="_blank">http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/...topic_id=502150</a></li></ul>3. Heretic's Destruction: Make it so it cannot be interrupted.</blockquote>Berserkers don't have a stoneskin.

Yimway

08-04-2011, 02:11 PM

<cite>Against@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>Can you fix holy ground while your at it? Our class defining ability that we don't get until lv 80 only adding 1 position is pathetic. I understand 1 position per hit on the recast being over powered and it needed to be fixed, but it was nerfed to nothing more than a dps tool. It's short range and only 1 position makes it near worthless for anything else.</blockquote>Change it to a target lock and remove the hate position.

Irgun

08-04-2011, 02:17 PM

<cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Against@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>Can you fix holy ground while your at it? Our class defining ability that we don't get until lv 80 only adding 1 position is pathetic. I understand 1 position per hit on the recast being over powered and it needed to be fixed, but it was nerfed to nothing more than a dps tool. It's short range and only 1 position makes it near worthless for anything else.</blockquote>Change it to a target lock and remove the hate position.</blockquote>Stay out of this thread and mind your own business (as productive)Epics are immune to targetlocks, still.

kiku

08-04-2011, 02:29 PM

I like the stoneskin Idea i might accually spec fot it. Kinda like the monk one. have it absorb 1 hit melee or magical if its above 35% of our HP with a base reuse of 1 minAs for Holy Ground nothing wrong with it, make it castable on the move and allow multi proc cfrom consecrate effect it. As it is now only the first hit of the dmg over time hits it.

tsunewolf

08-04-2011, 03:00 PM

Having to rely on virulent ire procs is something we shouldn't have to do. They either need to add a snap, change holy ground, change our myth clicky to something more in line with the sk one, add a focus effect/aa that adds positionals for holy ground, or increase the hate xfer cap along with everything else they are uncapping.

Raviel

08-04-2011, 03:10 PM

<cite>Talathion@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Lawrs@Permafrost wrote:</cite><blockquote>Here are some additional comments:1. The ward booster AA (4% per level) does not work correctly because wards only receive a third of potency increases. So instead of being 20% it really becomes 6.7% This needs to be fixed.2. Arch Heal: Here are some ideas I found (these are NOT my ideas) on other websites:<ul><li>"change archheal to a stoneskin so that we'll no longer be the only tanks without a stoneskin"</li><li>This is from Boli23's post in the Paladin forum on this site: "This is an endline which is USELESS beyond soloing or small grouping. It should have been changed long ago to enhance all heals rather than add what is a useless heal. Moving the 16% heal potency from TSF in crusader tree to this spot would be ideal. It woudl also allow the cruader tree to be more crusader friendly." See this for more details: <a rel="nofollow" href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?topic_id=503097" target="_blank">http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/...topic_id=503097</a></li><li>Here is another set of ideas from Boli23 (from the Paladin forum on this site) about changing the group heal but maybe some can apply to arch heal? <a rel="nofollow" href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?topic_id=502150" target="_blank">http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/...topic_id=502150</a></li></ul>3. Heretic's Destruction: Make it so it cannot be interrupted.</blockquote>Berserkers don't have a stoneskin.</blockquote>wall of force.

Controlor

08-04-2011, 05:00 PM

<cite>kiku wrote:</cite><blockquote>As for Holy Ground nothing wrong with it, make it castable on the move and allow multi proc cfrom consecrate effect it. As it is now only the first hit of the dmg over time hits it.</blockquote>Consecrate and Castigate have a whole host of issues that are annoying in how they act.Consecrate - Holy ground only procs off the first hit which would be ok if that ment Consecrate acted like a dot (as dots would only proc off the first hit). However It does not act like a dot because when time warp is running and you cast consecrate durring that time period, only the triggers that go off durring that period gets SDA. Once TW ends even if you casted consecrate durring the SDA period you no longer get SDA off the dmg. So it does not act like a dot. They really need to make up their mind if each new hit of it is its own individual spell cast in which case HG should trigger off each of the hits. Or if it acts like a dot in which case if you cast it durring TW you should SDA off every trigger.Castigate - With the change from it doing damange only when it cured an effect to it being able to do damage regardless of if anything was cured they borked it. That is they changed it to do damage regardless of curing but it still is "cure" tagged. So it will NEVER cause soemthing that procs off damaging spells to proc off Castigate. This includes Holy ground, any item procs, Peace of Mind, Profection of the Meastro, Elemental Toxicity, and so forth. Since it is also counted as a cure spell any damage it does will NOT count towards Crusader's Faith either. This is annoying when you are at 50% have CF running and hit that spell to cure 3 dots and you still are at 50%. They need to change this to be considered a combat spell not a cure spell, similar to Zealot Smite (though keep Castigate to exactly what it already does just change it to act as a damage spell).

Talathion

08-04-2011, 05:07 PM

<cite>Raviel@Guk wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Talathion@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Lawrs@Permafrost wrote:</cite><blockquote>Here are some additional comments:1. The ward booster AA (4% per level) does not work correctly because wards only receive a third of potency increases. So instead of being 20% it really becomes 6.7% This needs to be fixed.2. Arch Heal: Here are some ideas I found (these are NOT my ideas) on other websites:<ul><li>"change archheal to a stoneskin so that we'll no longer be the only tanks without a stoneskin"</li><li>This is from Boli23's post in the Paladin forum on this site: "This is an endline which is USELESS beyond soloing or small grouping. It should have been changed long ago to enhance all heals rather than add what is a useless heal. Moving the 16% heal potency from TSF in crusader tree to this spot would be ideal. It woudl also allow the cruader tree to be more crusader friendly." See this for more details: <a rel="nofollow" href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?topic_id=503097" target="_blank">http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/...topic_id=503097</a></li><li>Here is another set of ideas from Boli23 (from the Paladin forum on this site) about changing the group heal but maybe some can apply to arch heal? <a rel="nofollow" href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?topic_id=502150" target="_blank">http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/...topic_id=502150</a></li></ul>3. Heretic's Destruction: Make it so it cannot be interrupted.</blockquote>Berserkers don't have a stoneskin.</blockquote>wall of force.</blockquote>Its not a stoneskin, or if it is it doesn't work like that.

kiku

08-04-2011, 05:22 PM

<cite>Talathion@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Raviel@Guk wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Talathion@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Lawrs@Permafrost wrote:</cite><blockquote>Here are some additional comments:1. The ward booster AA (4% per level) does not work correctly because wards only receive a third of potency increases. So instead of being 20% it really becomes 6.7% This needs to be fixed.2. Arch Heal: Here are some ideas I found (these are NOT my ideas) on other websites:<ul><li>"change archheal to a stoneskin so that we'll no longer be the only tanks without a stoneskin"</li><li>This is from Boli23's post in the Paladin forum on this site: "This is an endline which is USELESS beyond soloing or small grouping. It should have been changed long ago to enhance all heals rather than add what is a useless heal. Moving the 16% heal potency from TSF in crusader tree to this spot would be ideal. It woudl also allow the cruader tree to be more crusader friendly." See this for more details: <a rel="nofollow" href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?topic_id=503097" target="_blank">http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/...topic_id=503097</a></li><li>Here is another set of ideas from Boli23 (from the Paladin forum on this site) about changing the group heal but maybe some can apply to arch heal? <a rel="nofollow" href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?topic_id=502150" target="_blank">http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/...topic_id=502150</a></li></ul>3. Heretic's Destruction: Make it so it cannot be interrupted.</blockquote>Berserkers don't have a stoneskin.</blockquote>wall of force.</blockquote>Its not a stoneskin, or if it is it doesn't work like that.</blockquote>Will absorb any physical attacks when over 30% of your hp for a total of 2 attacks. Thats a stoneskin...

Talathion

08-04-2011, 05:26 PM

<cite>kiku wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Talathion@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Raviel@Guk wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Talathion@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Lawrs@Permafrost wrote:</cite><blockquote>Here are some additional comments:1. The ward booster AA (4% per level) does not work correctly because wards only receive a third of potency increases. So instead of being 20% it really becomes 6.7% This needs to be fixed.2. Arch Heal: Here are some ideas I found (these are NOT my ideas) on other websites:<ul><li>"change archheal to a stoneskin so that we'll no longer be the only tanks without a stoneskin"</li><li>This is from Boli23's post in the Paladin forum on this site: "This is an endline which is USELESS beyond soloing or small grouping. It should have been changed long ago to enhance all heals rather than add what is a useless heal. Moving the 16% heal potency from TSF in crusader tree to this spot would be ideal. It woudl also allow the cruader tree to be more crusader friendly." See this for more details: <a rel="nofollow" href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?topic_id=503097" target="_blank">http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/...topic_id=503097</a></li><li>Here is another set of ideas from Boli23 (from the Paladin forum on this site) about changing the group heal but maybe some can apply to arch heal? <a rel="nofollow" href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?topic_id=502150" target="_blank">http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/...topic_id=502150</a></li></ul>3. Heretic's Destruction: Make it so it cannot be interrupted.</blockquote>Berserkers don't have a stoneskin.</blockquote>wall of force.</blockquote>Its not a stoneskin, or if it is it doesn't work like that.</blockquote>Will absorb any physical attacks when over 30% of your hp for a total of 2 attacks. Thats a stoneskin...</blockquote>Oh, I'm not even specced for it because it has a high reuse and procs only once usually.Its also really hard to hold aggro when I avoid/stoneskin attacks.

Bunnie_Princess

08-04-2011, 05:36 PM

<cite>Talathion@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>kiku wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Talathion@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Raviel@Guk wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Talathion@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Lawrs@Permafrost wrote:</cite><blockquote>Here are some additional comments:1. The ward booster AA (4% per level) does not work correctly because wards only receive a third of potency increases. So instead of being 20% it really becomes 6.7% This needs to be fixed.2. Arch Heal: Here are some ideas I found (these are NOT my ideas) on other websites:<ul><li>"change archheal to a stoneskin so that we'll no longer be the only tanks without a stoneskin"</li><li>This is from Boli23's post in the Paladin forum on this site: "This is an endline which is USELESS beyond soloing or small grouping. It should have been changed long ago to enhance all heals rather than add what is a useless heal. Moving the 16% heal potency from TSF in crusader tree to this spot would be ideal. It woudl also allow the cruader tree to be more crusader friendly." See this for more details: <a rel="nofollow" href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?topic_id=503097" target="_blank">http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/...topic_id=503097</a></li><li>Here is another set of ideas from Boli23 (from the Paladin forum on this site) about changing the group heal but maybe some can apply to arch heal? <a rel="nofollow" href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?topic_id=502150" target="_blank">http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/...topic_id=502150</a></li></ul>3. Heretic's Destruction: Make it so it cannot be interrupted.</blockquote>Berserkers don't have a stoneskin.</blockquote>wall of force.</blockquote>Its not a stoneskin, or if it is it doesn't work like that.</blockquote>Will absorb any physical attacks when over 30% of your hp for a total of 2 attacks. Thats a stoneskin...</blockquote>Oh, I'm not even specced for it because it has a high reuse and procs only once usually.</blockquote>Its a good ability. Cast it when ya see the mob casting a good 90k hit or have act timers on like HM kyrtocs the belt mob (3rd mob) his massive smash lands for like 90k physical dmg.Using that ability ya just blocked it. I know wards cover it (sometimes) but its not perfect. The ability is nice tied with stoneskin ability from heroic tree that reflects back thats another set of massive hits ya can avoid.Im not sure maybe you dont raid HM stuff but some of those hits hurt and the stoneskin, DP is all we have. the first mob in tallons hits for 140k lol ya need stoneskins or 3 healers rotating death prevents or ya can be screwed if the wrong type of tank IE Paly, SK, Zerker

Talathion

08-04-2011, 05:39 PM

<cite>Bunnie_Princess wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Talathion@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>kiku wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Talathion@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Raviel@Guk wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Talathion@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Lawrs@Permafrost wrote:</cite><blockquote>Here are some additional comments:1. The ward booster AA (4% per level) does not work correctly because wards only receive a third of potency increases. So instead of being 20% it really becomes 6.7% This needs to be fixed.2. Arch Heal: Here are some ideas I found (these are NOT my ideas) on other websites:<ul><li>"change archheal to a stoneskin so that we'll no longer be the only tanks without a stoneskin"</li><li>This is from Boli23's post in the Paladin forum on this site: "This is an endline which is USELESS beyond soloing or small grouping. It should have been changed long ago to enhance all heals rather than add what is a useless heal. Moving the 16% heal potency from TSF in crusader tree to this spot would be ideal. It woudl also allow the cruader tree to be more crusader friendly." See this for more details: <a rel="nofollow" href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?topic_id=503097" target="_blank">http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/...topic_id=503097</a></li><li>Here is another set of ideas from Boli23 (from the Paladin forum on this site) about changing the group heal but maybe some can apply to arch heal? <a rel="nofollow" href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?topic_id=502150" target="_blank">http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/...topic_id=502150</a></li></ul>3. Heretic's Destruction: Make it so it cannot be interrupted.</blockquote>Berserkers don't have a stoneskin.</blockquote>wall of force.</blockquote>Its not a stoneskin, or if it is it doesn't work like that.</blockquote>Will absorb any physical attacks when over 30% of your hp for a total of 2 attacks. Thats a stoneskin...</blockquote>Oh, I'm not even specced for it because it has a high reuse and procs only once usually.</blockquote>Its a good ability. Cast it when ya see the mob casting a good 90k hit or have act timers on like HM kyrtocs the belt mob (3rd mob) his massive smash lands for like 90k physical dmg.Using that ability ya just blocked it. I know wards cover it (sometimes) but its not perfect. The ability is nice tied with stoneskin ability from heroic tree that reflects back thats another set of massive hits ya can avoid.Im not sure maybe you dont raid HM stuff but some of those hits hurt and the stoneskin, DP is all we have. the first mob in tallons hits for 140k lol ya need stoneskins or 3 healers rotating death prevents or ya can be screwed if the wrong type of tank IE Paly, SK, Zerker</blockquote>I'd rather have another tank tanking HM, Zerkers don't have as much health as other tanks and Only one weak stoneskin with a 1 minute 50 second recast that blocks 1-2 hits on a 10 second timer.(like a monk, or bruiser, or paladin, or Guardian)Honestly, I wish Zerkers got the thing Brawlers got, the 30% Damage reduction for 3 seconds and comes back up every 10 seconds, thats almost exactly what we need, also could of used the 15% strikethrough Sks got, but meh.

Lera

08-04-2011, 06:14 PM

<cite>Controlor wrote:</cite><blockquote>Consecrate - Holy ground only procs off the first hit which would be ok if that ment Consecrate acted like a dot (as dots would only proc off the first hit). However It does not act like a dot because when time warp is running and you cast consecrate durring that time period, only the triggers that go off durring that period gets SDA. Once TW ends even if you casted consecrate durring the SDA period you no longer get SDA off the dmg. So it does not act like a dot. They really need to make up their mind if each new hit of it is its own individual spell cast in which case HG should trigger off each of the hits. Or if it acts like a dot in which case if you cast it durring TW you should SDA off every trigger.</blockquote>They should also bring back the old Consecrate animation.

Anurra

08-04-2011, 08:13 PM

<cite>Lera@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Controlor wrote:</cite><blockquote>Consecrate - Holy ground only procs off the first hit which would be ok if that ment Consecrate acted like a dot (as dots would only proc off the first hit). However It does not act like a dot because when time warp is running and you cast consecrate durring that time period, only the triggers that go off durring that period gets SDA. Once TW ends even if you casted consecrate durring the SDA period you no longer get SDA off the dmg. So it does not act like a dot. They really need to make up their mind if each new hit of it is its own individual spell cast in which case HG should trigger off each of the hits. Or if it acts like a dot in which case if you cast it durring TW you should SDA off every trigger.</blockquote>They should also bring back the old Consecrate animation.</blockquote>Yess!

Dark_fairy

08-04-2011, 09:09 PM

<cite>Talathion@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Bunnie_Princess wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Talathion@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>kiku wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Talathion@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Raviel@Guk wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Talathion@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Lawrs@Permafrost wrote:</cite><blockquote>Here are some additional comments:1. The ward booster AA (4% per level) does not work correctly because wards only receive a third of potency increases. So instead of being 20% it really becomes 6.7% This needs to be fixed.2. Arch Heal: Here are some ideas I found (these are NOT my ideas) on other websites:<ul><li>"change archheal to a stoneskin so that we'll no longer be the only tanks without a stoneskin"</li><li>This is from Boli23's post in the Paladin forum on this site: "This is an endline which is USELESS beyond soloing or small grouping. It should have been changed long ago to enhance all heals rather than add what is a useless heal. Moving the 16% heal potency from TSF in crusader tree to this spot would be ideal. It woudl also allow the cruader tree to be more crusader friendly." See this for more details: <a rel="nofollow" href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?topic_id=503097" target="_blank">http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/...topic_id=503097</a></li><li>Here is another set of ideas from Boli23 (from the Paladin forum on this site) about changing the group heal but maybe some can apply to arch heal? <a rel="nofollow" href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?topic_id=502150" target="_blank">http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/...topic_id=502150</a></li></ul>3. Heretic's Destruction: Make it so it cannot be interrupted.</blockquote>Berserkers don't have a stoneskin.</blockquote>wall of force.</blockquote>Its not a stoneskin, or if it is it doesn't work like that.</blockquote>Will absorb any physical attacks when over 30% of your hp for a total of 2 attacks. Thats a stoneskin...</blockquote>Oh, I'm not even specced for it because it has a high reuse and procs only once usually.</blockquote>Its a good ability. Cast it when ya see the mob casting a good 90k hit or have act timers on like HM kyrtocs the belt mob (3rd mob) his massive smash lands for like 90k physical dmg.Using that ability ya just blocked it. I know wards cover it (sometimes) but its not perfect. The ability is nice tied with stoneskin ability from heroic tree that reflects back thats another set of massive hits ya can avoid.Im not sure maybe you dont raid HM stuff but some of those hits hurt and the stoneskin, DP is all we have. the first mob in tallons hits for 140k lol ya need stoneskins or 3 healers rotating death prevents or ya can be screwed if the wrong type of tank IE Paly, SK, Zerker</blockquote>I'd rather have another tank tanking HM, Zerkers don't have as much health as other tanks and Only one weak stoneskin with a 1 minute 50 second recast that blocks 1-2 hits on a 10 second timer.(like a monk, or bruiser, or paladin, or Guardian)Honestly, I wish Zerkers got the thing Brawlers got, the 30% Damage reduction for 3 seconds and comes back up every 10 seconds, thats almost exactly what we need, also could of used the 15% strikethrough Sks got, but meh.</blockquote>Well for that fight need 3 tanks 2 on the named and 1 for adds with co-op. Paly are not much better off on HM sure we got amends aggro control ect but for those huge hits we got nothing but 1 death prevent. I would love to have a single stoneskin.Our SK is not much better off. Guard / monk seems the way to be.

OrcSlayer96

08-05-2011, 05:59 PM

Demonstration of faith AA if they dont change the 1/3rd effectiveness to it needs to be 12% per rank for the max rank of 60%(the real 20% they originally said it was before the heal crit changes and other fighter penalties). Keep Holy ground as is for the 1 hate position initial and damage/threat for each hit during the duration, but make it a combat art or cant be interrupted by moving like other positionals on fighters. Holy Ground is considered 2 seperate spells by the mechanics currently so it cannot be queued like other abilities till the hate position component has fired off at least. With the radius/range at 10 meters, making it castable on the run is commonsense.Take our Myth buff Holy Avenger that creates a heal pet that lasts .001 secs in battle and change it to a 2-3 hate position long range spell with similar distance range of faithful cry end line and 2 min recast. Take Archheal end line and drop the small heal for large power ability and replace with 4 second duration all damage stoneskin with a recast of 1 min. Will make the healing line once again a viable option to put points in and paladins will have to decide what is worth more, the heretic's destruction or 4 endlines. Call it Holy Shield or something other than Arch Heal.Numbers can be moved around for balance, but those changes would be alot more viable than the current ones we have..<img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

lollipop

08-05-2011, 06:07 PM

<cite>OrcSlayer96 wrote:</cite><blockquote>Demonstration of faith AA if they dont change the 1/3rd effectiveness to it needs to be 12% per rank for the max rank of 60%(the real 20% they originally said it was before the heal crit changes and other fighter penalties). Keep Holy ground as is for the 1 hate position initial and damage/threat for each hit during the duration, but make it a combat art or cant be interrupted by moving like other positionals on fighters. Holy Ground is considered 2 seperate spells by the mechanics currently so it cannot be queued like other abilities till the hate position component has fired off at least. With the radius/range at 10 meters, making it castable on the run is commonsense.Take our Myth buff Holy Avenger that creates a heal pet that lasts .001 secs in battle and change it to a 2-3 hate position long range spell with similar distance range of faithful cry end line and 2 min recast. Take Archheal end line and drop the small heal for large power ability and replace with 4 second duration all damage stoneskin with a recast of 1 min. Will make the healing line once again a viable option to put points in and paladins will have to decide what is worth more, the heretic's destruction or 4 endlines. Call it Holy Shield or something other than Arch Heal.Numbers can be moved around for balance, but those changes would be alot more viable than the current ones we have..<img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" /></blockquote>nice, i mean numbers prolly need adjustment but that owuld put us in line with like monks and what not for tanking. I mean wont have as many abilitys but that would sure help a ton.

Talathion

08-05-2011, 06:14 PM

Why not ask for something cool?a proc that procs 2.0 times per minute and gives you a ward based on 0.01% of the mob's max HP.a 10000 ward if the mob has 1000000 HP

OrcSlayer96

08-05-2011, 06:25 PM

<cite>Talathion@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>Why not ask for something cool?a proc that procs 2.0 times per minute and gives you a ward based on 0.01% of the mob's max HP.a 10000 ward if the mob has 1000000 HP</blockquote>Because i trust my judgement when to cast a 4 sec duration all damage stoneskin versus Soe's RNG mechanics and calculations to proc a ward. A all damage stoneskin is something paladins do not have, we already have a decent ward we usually precast on pulls and a long range hate position on a moderate reuse timer would help out alot. Of the 2, i would actually like to see the arch heal changed to the short duration stoneskin as a endline should be useful for the 20 aa spent for it, not a waste of aa and power spent on casting like the current mechanic.

Juravael

08-05-2011, 06:31 PM

<cite>Lera@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Controlor wrote:</cite><blockquote>Consecrate - Holy ground only procs off the first hit which would be ok if that ment Consecrate acted like a dot (as dots would only proc off the first hit). However It does not act like a dot because when time warp is running and you cast consecrate durring that time period, only the triggers that go off durring that period gets SDA. Once TW ends even if you casted consecrate durring the SDA period you no longer get SDA off the dmg. So it does not act like a dot. They really need to make up their mind if each new hit of it is its own individual spell cast in which case HG should trigger off each of the hits. Or if it acts like a dot in which case if you cast it durring TW you should SDA off every trigger.</blockquote>They should also bring back the old Consecrate animation.</blockquote>I agree 100%

Prrasha

08-05-2011, 06:47 PM

<cite>Glenedhel@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Lera@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>They should also bring back the old Consecrate animation.</blockquote>I agree 100%</blockquote>The modified-curtsey-every-3-seconds thing? The "please kick me right in the chin while I refuse to defend myself" animation? For a tank? No thank you.

Talathion

08-05-2011, 07:09 PM

<cite>OrcSlayer96 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Talathion@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>Why not ask for something cool?a proc that procs 2.0 times per minute and gives you a ward based on 0.01% of the mob's max HP.a 10000 ward if the mob has 1000000 HP</blockquote>Because i trust my judgement when to cast a 4 sec duration all damage stoneskin versus Soe's RNG mechanics and calculations to proc a ward. A all damage stoneskin is something paladins do not have, we already have a decent ward we usually precast on pulls and a long range hate position on a moderate reuse timer would help out alot. Of the 2, i would actually like to see the arch heal changed to the short duration stoneskin as a endline should be useful for the 20 aa spent for it, not a waste of aa and power spent on casting like the current mechanic.</blockquote>Thats not your type of class, you should want something that more "abuses" your class.a proc that procs 2.0 times per minute and gives you a ward based on 0.01% of the target's max HP.a 10000 ward if the mob has 1000000 HPThats exactly WHAT You need in the new Raiding Zones, even though it won't do much in heroics or Solo, you really don't need help in those areas.

tsunewolf

08-05-2011, 08:00 PM

<cite>Talathion@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>OrcSlayer96 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Talathion@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>Why not ask for something cool?a proc that procs 2.0 times per minute and gives you a ward based on 0.01% of the mob's max HP.a 10000 ward if the mob has 1000000 HP</blockquote>Because i trust my judgement when to cast a 4 sec duration all damage stoneskin versus Soe's RNG mechanics and calculations to proc a ward. A all damage stoneskin is something paladins do not have, we already have a decent ward we usually precast on pulls and a long range hate position on a moderate reuse timer would help out alot. Of the 2, i would actually like to see the arch heal changed to the short duration stoneskin as a endline should be useful for the 20 aa spent for it, not a waste of aa and power spent on casting like the current mechanic.</blockquote>Thats not your type of class, you should want something that more "abuses" your class.a proc that procs 2.0 times per minute and gives you a ward based on 0.01% of the target's max HP.a 10000 ward if the mob has 1000000 HPThats exactly WHAT You need in the new Raiding Zones, even though it won't do much in heroics or Solo, you really don't need help in those areas.</blockquote>No it isn't, paladin's are long overdue for a stoneskin/another form of hate position gain. Paladin's are the only tank without a bunch of AA overhaul this expac, we need something to compete with the other tanks.

Fyang

08-05-2011, 09:26 PM

They keeping nerf Pal since last expac, We should get some love now.

Netty

08-06-2011, 02:45 AM

Manawall just saying... Its the stoneskin buff you dident have..

tsunewolf

08-06-2011, 03:20 AM

<cite>Netty wrote:</cite><blockquote>Manawall just saying... Its the stoneskin buff you dident have..</blockquote>Manawall =/= stoneskin by far.

Hikinami

08-06-2011, 05:32 AM

It's funny other class subtrees are getting fourth endlines. With Arch heal there we might as well only have three! Something really needs to be done, after the crit heal nerf having an endline that's a heal is rather pointless. Our class really does need more snaps and big save buttons. Please SoE I'm begging ya.

Nephiere

08-06-2011, 12:56 PM

I would really like to see arch heal made into a maintainable buff, something like a grp reactive that procs a 2k heal on all damage as long as it isnt direct. It wouldnt help us while we are MTing so much but it would go a long way toward helping out with the aoe damage in raid/groups. Would be a nice compliment to prayer of healing(which should be raised, or changed).And yes I wish they would fix our ward aa to ACTUALLY give us 20% increase...5 aa for 6.7% is mehEDIT: How about strikethru immunity on stonewall?

Irgun

08-06-2011, 03:00 PM

- Strikethrough immunity on stonewall- Arch-heal as a passive ability allowing our heals to crit again- Change Holy Ground as it was before (shortbuff lasting 13secs) - 1hate position on any hit + 2 hits stoneskinSo, you still gotta do something to get aggro back + your snap will stoneskin 2 times.For the amount of strikethroughs on raids, big spikedamage on aoes + a reliable stoneskin its the right way to go.

Talathion

08-06-2011, 03:04 PM

<cite>Irgin@Valor wrote:</cite><blockquote>- Strikethrough immunity on stonewall- Arch-heal as a passive ability allowing our heals to crit again- Change Holy Ground as it was before (shortbuff lasting 13secs) - 1hate position on any hit + 2 hits stoneskinSo, you still gotta do something to get aggro back + your snap will stoneskin 2 times.For the amount of strikethroughs on raids, big spikedamage on aoes + a reliable stoneskin its the right way to go.</blockquote>heals should critical, period.

Netty

08-06-2011, 03:20 PM

Strikethrough immunity need to be put on all temp avoidance thingies with a 100% rate really... If something say 100% it need to be 100% aswell. That would really make a nice change and help out many tank classes.

Odys

08-07-2011, 12:14 AM

Well i hate archealing but the fact that one of our mythical buf is useless is more disturbing.My warden non permanent mythical buff is a 3 charges stoneskin with reasonnable reuse, even if the dev fashion flurries os 15 hits a 3 charge stoneskin is nice.Instead my paladin can have fun and summon a little dwarft with a wingy helmet to be sacrificed.I don't know what temporary effect get the other fighters but the one of teh paladin is ridiculous.

Anurra

08-07-2011, 02:10 PM

Well, we got some good replies. Hopefully the devs have looked at this thread and are considering some additional Paladin changes for GU 61.

Talathion

08-07-2011, 03:18 PM

I think Arch heal should be a HOT thats a percent based heal, but so should berserker's perseverance. (which is 100x worse then Arch heal is now)

Silverzx

08-07-2011, 09:28 PM

<cite>Lawrs@Permafrost wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Against@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>Can you fix holy ground while your at it? Our class defining ability that we don't get until lv 80 only adding 1 position is pathetic. I understand 1 position per hit on the recast being over powered and it needed to be fixed, but it was nerfed to nothing more than a dps tool. It's short range and only 1 position makes it near worthless for anything else.</blockquote>Perhaps they could increase the recast time by some amount (25% or whatever) and then add the 1 position per hit component.</blockquote>definitely agree, make it 1 position per hit, keep the increased damage but increase the recast by like 5% or so.

tsunewolf

08-09-2011, 07:08 PM

We've made some changes to your Expertise abilities, and while they aren't exactly what you're asking for in this thread, hopefully they'll end up being desirable.<ul ><li style="font: normal normal normal 10pt/normal verdana, geneva, lucida, 'lucida grande', arial, helvetica, sans-serif;">Gut Roar will simply grant 3 seconds of physical damage immunity, and the cast time was reduced to 0.25 seconds.</li><li style="font: normal normal normal 10pt/normal verdana, geneva, lucida, 'lucida grande', arial, helvetica, sans-serif;">Cyclone now grants 7% potency in addition to its other effects.</li><li style="font: normal normal normal 10pt/normal verdana, geneva, lucida, 'lucida grande', arial, helvetica, sans-serif;">Perseverance now procs if the Berserker falls below 50% (instead of 30%). When it procs, it grants the Berserker a buff which has a 10% chance to proc a physical stoneskin each time the Berserker is hit. The buff lasts 15 seconds.</li></ul>Let us know what you think. Considering the Adrenaline threat AA is balanced around not critting, would you guys rather have us repurpose Gut Roar or Perseverance as an offensive/aggro ability?What the %#$*, zerkers actually getting a dev response and they've already had a TON of revamp on AA and not a whisper from anything to help paladins?

Controlor

08-09-2011, 09:20 PM

Paladins are just not as vocal as zerkers <img src="/smilies/1cfd6e2a9a2c0cf8e74b49b35e2e46c7.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Nephiere

08-09-2011, 09:48 PM

Little patience guys, maybe they just havent gotten around to us. Keep posting and keep your fingers crossed and perhaps we'll hear something.

tsunewolf

08-09-2011, 10:06 PM

I think a dev plays a zerker

Controlor

08-10-2011, 02:06 PM

I was thinking something. If they are not gonna have heals crit any more than our split of 130 natural CB for Melee/Spell/Heal is a bit off. They should change it to 140 melee 140 spell 100 heal. Not going the full 150 as the other fighters get but still gives us something. ESPECIALLY since the gear wont have +spell skill on it for fighters which is going to hurt our casting DPS. Which as a paladin if you look at the top 5 dpsers for us (excluding slash) 1 of them are melee - Faith Cry - the rest are spells. Typically the top 8 dpses for us (excluding slash) are all spells except faith cry. I am sure SK's are in a similar boat as they have more spells than Paladins. So yah the lack of +spell skill is going to not boost our dps as much as it will boost the dps of every other tank.

Buzzing

08-10-2011, 02:26 PM

<cite>Controlor wrote:</cite><blockquote>Paladins are just not as vocal as zerkers <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/1cfd6e2a9a2c0cf8e74b49b35e2e46c7.gif" border="0" /></blockquote>there isn't many Paladins left <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" />

tsunewolf

08-10-2011, 04:17 PM

Flavour wise, why isn't stonewall a stoneskin? Sounds much better in my opinion and would be an easy fix.

Talathion

08-10-2011, 05:29 PM

Arch Heal, 3% Heal Every Second forever, Costs 1% Mana Every Second and No mana to cast.Fast Cast, and Until Canceled.Its Reuse is 10 Seconds, and it Stacks, the More you use it, the more mana it burns.((can probably get up to 12% healing every second, but it takes 4% Mana Every second.))All stacks will cancel when you run out of power.Warning: If you run out of power while using the spell as a penalty, targets effected (with the spell on them) will have immunity to ALL HEALING abilitys for 15 seconds.So you have to watch the stacks and your power.

Nephiere

08-10-2011, 08:06 PM

The 3% HoT isnt bad, if its a grp heal. I'd prefer it to be a maintained buff, but at 3% forever is too much. if its a good heal, i dont mind the mana cost, but immunity to all heals is stupid. I still think the way to go is to make it a maintained grp reactive that procs a 3% of the paladin's health, so at 50k hp u're looking at roughly 1500 healed. Make it trigger all damage that isnt direct (to make it interesting and less powerful). If you are MTing, or OTing, then at best you only get the benefit of proccing when u are caught between overlapping aoes from different mobs. 1500x5= 7500 This is very close to what arch heal does as a single target heal for me, if it does proc on the paladin then you are looking at a 9k heal triggered across 6 people, which is not unrealistic.Still would like the aa ward % fixed, that been talked about since beta.

Talathion

08-10-2011, 08:09 PM

<cite>Retrebution@Najena wrote:</cite><blockquote>The 3% HoT isnt bad, if its a grp heal. I'd prefer it to be a maintained buff, but at 3% forever is too much. if its a good heal, i dont mind the mana cost, but immunity to all heals is stupid. I still think the way to go is to make it a maintained grp reactive that procs a 3% of the paladin's health, so at 50k hp u're looking at roughly 1500 healed. Make it trigger all damage that isnt direct (to make it interesting and less powerful). If you are MTing, or OTing, then at best you only get the benefit of proccing when u are caught between overlapping aoes from different mobs. 1500x5= 7500 This is very close to what arch heal does as a single target heal for me, if it does proc on the paladin then you are looking at a 9k heal triggered across 6 people, which is not unrealistic.Still would like the aa ward % fixed, that been talked about since beta.</blockquote>Its stackable, and the immunity to heals is a penalty if you don't cancel the buff before you run out of power.If you cancel the buff at 1 power, your target doesn't get healing immunity, its basicly just a penalty.I think it would add a little flavor and skill to the class.

Fyang

08-10-2011, 10:20 PM

I feel Arch Heal is Ok for me, It bring 300-400 Hps for me. I can easily heal myself when I got a big hit cuz its fast casting.But increase its amount is better than now.

Boli32

08-11-2011, 10:55 AM

Paladin<ul><li>Enhance: Lay on Hands now also reduces the power cost of Lay on Hands.</li><li>Enhance: Devout Sacrifice now also reduces the power cost of Devout Sacrifice.</li><li>Enhance: Demonstration of Faith now also applies an arcane mitigation reduction to any enemy striking the target of Demonstration of Faith.</li><li>Enhance: Intercept now also heals the target when Intercept expires naturally.</li></ul>1> Lay on Hands power cost: This should be 20% per AA; the idea behind p[ower reduction is nice and all but honeslty unless LoH power comsumption is reduced DRASTICALLY or completly it is not really worth it.2> Ditto power consumption for devout Sacrifice is pretty much "meh".3> The mitigation debuff is ~ 1.5k arcane. you have to be hit by the mob in question, it only lasts for 10seconds and most of the time the ward is used up fast; so at best the mob gets a mitigation reduction for 10seconds; and vs multiple mobs unless they are hitting for virtually nothing only 1 or 2 will get the debuff; not somethgin which is fantastic...4> You serious? Intercept has a duration of 1min40s having someone *not* hit by something in that time and actually needing a heal approach ZERO.This is what I would do:Paladin <ul><li>Enhance: Lay on Hands now also reduces the power cost of Lay on Hands by 20% per point.</li><li>Enhance: Devout Sacrifice (5 points) : Any "overheal" is converted into a ward.</li><li>Enhance: Demonstration of Faith now also applies an arcane AND PHYSICAL mitigation reduction to any enemy striking the target of Demonstration of Faith; this effect lasts for 24s even if the ward has expired before then.</li><li>Enhance: Intercept: adds a taunt effect when it triggers increasing the hate of the caster; at 5 ranks the hate potion of the caster is also increased. </li><li>Arch Healer: Increases Heals by 16% (an AA from the endline of the CRUSADER tree and virtually useless to SKs)</li></ul>of course.... I'm not in charge - but every one of these abilities directly assists the paladin class without being too overpowered. We're not asking for much just for the development team to listen and read what people who regually play the paladin class need.

Irgun

08-11-2011, 11:00 AM

*looking at overall AA changes*<img src="/eq2/images/smilies/385970365b8ed7503b4294502a458efa.gif" border="0" />*looking at mine*<img src="/eq2/images/smilies/0320a00cb4bb5629ab9fc2bc1fcc4e9e.gif" border="0" />

Anurra

08-11-2011, 11:04 AM

<cite>Boli@Splitpaw wrote:</cite><blockquote>Paladin<ul><li>Enhance: Lay on Hands now also reduces the power cost of Lay on Hands.</li><li>Enhance: Devout Sacrifice now also reduces the power cost of Devout Sacrifice.</li><li>Enhance: Demonstration of Faith now also applies an arcane mitigation reduction to any enemy striking the target of Demonstration of Faith.</li><li>Enhance: Intercept now also heals the target when Intercept expires naturally.</li></ul>1> Lay on Hands power cost: This should be 20% per AA; the idea behind p[ower reduction is nice and all but honeslty unless LoH power comsumption is reduced DRASTICALLY or completly it is not really worth it.2> Ditto power consumption for devout Sacrifice is pretty much "meh".3> The mitigation debuff is ~ 1.5k arcane. you have to be hit by the mob in question, it only lasts for 10seconds and most of the time the ward is used up fast; so at best the mob gets a mitigation reduction for 10seconds; and vs multiple mobs unless they are hitting for virtually nothing only 1 or 2 will get the debuff; not somethgin which is fantastic...4> You serious? Intercept has a duration of 1min40s having someone *not* hit by something in that time and actually needing a heal approach ZERO.This is what I would do:Paladin <ul><li>Enhance: Lay on Hands now also reduces the power cost of Lay on Hands by 20% per point.</li><li>Enhance: Devout Sacrifice (5 points) : Any "overheal" is converted into a ward.</li><li>Enhance: Demonstration of Faith now also applies an arcane AND PHYSICAL mitigation reduction to any enemy striking the target of Demonstration of Faith; this effect lasts for 24s even if the ward has expired before then.</li><li>Enhance: Intercept: adds a taunt effect when it triggers increasing the hate of the caster; at 5 ranks the hate potion of the caster is also increased. </li><li>Arch Healer: Increases Heals by 16% (an AA from the endline of the CRUSADER tree and virtually useless to SKs)</li></ul>of course.... I'm not in charge - but every one of these abilities directly assists the paladin class without being too overpowered. We're not asking for much just for the development team to listen and read what people who regually play the paladin class need.</blockquote>What ^^^^he^^^^ said!

Dark_fairy

08-11-2011, 11:07 AM

<cite>Lawrs@Permafrost wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Boli@Splitpaw wrote:</cite><blockquote>Paladin<ul><li>Enhance: Lay on Hands now also reduces the power cost of Lay on Hands.</li><li>Enhance: Devout Sacrifice now also reduces the power cost of Devout Sacrifice.</li><li>Enhance: Demonstration of Faith now also applies an arcane mitigation reduction to any enemy striking the target of Demonstration of Faith.</li><li>Enhance: Intercept now also heals the target when Intercept expires naturally.</li></ul>1> Lay on Hands power cost: This should be 20% per AA; the idea behind p[ower reduction is nice and all but honeslty unless LoH power comsumption is reduced DRASTICALLY or completly it is not really worth it.2> Ditto power consumption for devout Sacrifice is pretty much "meh".3> The mitigation debuff is ~ 1.5k arcane. you have to be hit by the mob in question, it only lasts for 10seconds and most of the time the ward is used up fast; so at best the mob gets a mitigation reduction for 10seconds; and vs multiple mobs unless they are hitting for virtually nothing only 1 or 2 will get the debuff; not somethgin which is fantastic...4> You serious? Intercept has a duration of 1min40s having someone *not* hit by something in that time and actually needing a heal approach ZERO.This is what I would do:Paladin <ul><li>Enhance: Lay on Hands now also reduces the power cost of Lay on Hands by 20% per point.</li><li>Enhance: Devout Sacrifice (5 points) : Any "overheal" is converted into a ward.</li><li>Enhance: Demonstration of Faith now also applies an arcane AND PHYSICAL mitigation reduction to any enemy striking the target of Demonstration of Faith; this effect lasts for 24s even if the ward has expired before then.</li><li>Enhance: Intercept: adds a taunt effect when it triggers increasing the hate of the caster; at 5 ranks the hate potion of the caster is also increased. </li><li>Arch Healer: Increases Heals by 16% (an AA from the endline of the CRUSADER tree and virtually useless to SKs)</li></ul>of course.... I'm not in charge - but every one of these abilities directly assists the paladin class without being too overpowered. We're not asking for much just for the development team to listen and read what people who regually play the paladin class need.</blockquote>What ^^^^he^^^^ said!</blockquote>I like these more, I mean wow i feel like we got screwed. Looking at SK adds and monks and well everyone else we get mana reduction on some heals.........wow kinda seals it for me my monk is going to be my raid main.

OrcSlayer96

08-11-2011, 11:22 AM

<cite>Boli@Splitpaw wrote:</cite><blockquote>Paladin<ul><li>Enhance: Lay on Hands now also reduces the power cost of Lay on Hands.</li><li>Enhance: Devout Sacrifice now also reduces the power cost of Devout Sacrifice.</li><li>Enhance: Demonstration of Faith now also applies an arcane mitigation reduction to any enemy striking the target of Demonstration of Faith.</li><li>Enhance: Intercept now also heals the target when Intercept expires naturally.</li></ul>1> Lay on Hands power cost: This should be 20% per AA; the idea behind p[ower reduction is nice and all but honeslty unless LoH power comsumption is reduced DRASTICALLY or completly it is not really worth it.2> Ditto power consumption for devout Sacrifice is pretty much "meh".3> The mitigation debuff is ~ 1.5k arcane. you have to be hit by the mob in question, it only lasts for 10seconds and most of the time the ward is used up fast; so at best the mob gets a mitigation reduction for 10seconds; and vs multiple mobs unless they are hitting for virtually nothing only 1 or 2 will get the debuff; not somethgin which is fantastic...4> You serious? Intercept has a duration of 1min40s having someone *not* hit by something in that time and actually needing a heal approach ZERO.This is what I would do:Paladin <ul><li>Enhance: Lay on Hands now also reduces the power cost of Lay on Hands by 20% per point.</li><li>Enhance: Devout Sacrifice (5 points) : Any "overheal" is converted into a ward.</li><li>Enhance: Demonstration of Faith now also applies an arcane AND PHYSICAL mitigation reduction to any enemy striking the target of Demonstration of Faith; this effect lasts for 24s even if the ward has expired before then.</li><li>Enhance: Intercept: adds a taunt effect when it triggers increasing the hate of the caster; at 5 ranks the hate potion of the caster is also increased. </li><li>Arch Healer: Increases Heals by 16% (an AA from the endline of the CRUSADER tree and virtually useless to SKs)</li></ul>of course.... I'm not in charge - but every one of these abilities directly assists the paladin class without being too overpowered. We're not asking for much just for the development team to listen and read what people who regually play the paladin class need.</blockquote>Once again Boli hits it out of the park, i would prefer these changes over a wannabe adrenaline power reduction that Tal posted for Arch Heal. If the coding for overheal on devout sacrifice is too time consuming, add at rank 5 a ward tossed on the paladin that is at least half the min amount of the heal. We already have a intense power drain option in the form of manawall and i know the vast majority of paladins have at best this as a alt mirror spec. We dont want to be a clone of another fighter, we just want our innate spells/aa's working correctly and not stuck at outdated enhancements that were lackluster before fighter crit nerf and other mechanic changes.

Darkstar101

08-11-2011, 12:15 PM

How about Arch Healing as a buff that gives the paladin a self ward based in the amount healed from our single target and group heal? Would make the relatively weak group heal more appealing.

Irgun

08-11-2011, 12:28 PM

Lower mana costs for both heals are neither nice, nor bad - theyre just unnecessary - not a change/improvement at all.A heal if an intercept with a duration of 1:40mins wont trigger is.....erh.....you wont get this to work, not even in one out of hundredthousand tries when youre fighting - useless.So, only the debuff component of the ward left, which is neither a snap nor some reliable special to counter spikedamage, both what we need atm.Sorry guys...../failTry again! (including the considerations which make sense and got posted here)

Yimway

08-11-2011, 02:14 PM

<cite>Boli@Splitpaw wrote:</cite><blockquote><ul><li>Enhance: Devout Sacrifice (5 points) : Any "overheal" is converted into a ward.</li></ul></blockquote>Any overheal of Devout Sacrifice, or any overheal from the paladin at all? Any cap on the ward? Decaying?Also the previous poster requesting Stonewall become a stoneskin is reasonable. Reasonable request, but I question if the reuse timer should be adjusted up slightly to balance that change out.

Controlor

08-11-2011, 02:24 PM

<cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Boli@Splitpaw wrote:</cite><blockquote><ul><li>Enhance: Devout Sacrifice (5 points) : Any "overheal" is converted into a ward.</li></ul></blockquote>Any overheal of Devout Sacrifice, or any overheal from the paladin at all? Any cap on the ward? Decaying?Also the previous poster requesting Stonewall become a stoneskin is reasonable. Reasonable request, but I question if the reuse timer should be adjusted up slightly to balance that change out.</blockquote>I think he was saying any overheal for devout sacrafice. There would have to be a cap on it i am sure because than if you are at full health you could just cast devout and get a ward that is twice the size of our current ward rendering that spell less useful (though the Devout is still on a long timer).And again dev's please change the Demonstration of Faith AA that increases the ward amount to properly reflect the aa itself.

tsunewolf

08-11-2011, 03:12 PM

Paladin<ul ><li>Enhance: Lay on Hands now also reduces the power cost of Lay on Hands.</li><li>Enhance: Devout Sacrifice now also reduces the power cost of Devout Sacrifice.</li><li>Enhance: Demonstration of Faith now also applies an arcane mitigation reduction to any enemy striking the target of Demonstration of Faith.</li><li>Enhance: Intercept now also heals the target when Intercept expires naturally.</li></ul><div>These changes do nothing to help paladin's in any realistic way.</div>

Nephiere

08-11-2011, 07:46 PM

Like what Boli said for the most part, still think arch heal should be some kind of grp maintained ability ( i bet they wouldnt move the heal % from the crusader's tree, i'm sure we arent the only subclass that both sides can't 100% utilize ).-If we are going to get stuck with a heal on intercept then it should proc the heal on trigger, and it should proc 2 heals if below the health % margin required to proc 2 intercepts.-I doubt we'll get both arcane and physical on our ward, but if they just bumped up the duration to 24s that would still be decent.-a ward effect on devout would be awesome.EDIT: And what's up with the sk cb boost? I'm not knocking them, I'm glad they got it...but if we aren't going to get our wrath line boosted then we should get some equally kick butt aa adjustments to either our heals, stonewall (honestly i like this as is except for not having strikethrough immunity), or hate!

Ymarik

08-11-2011, 08:22 PM

Since I play my paladin more than anything else, I've been following this thread with some interest. I figured I would toss in a bit of feedback as well.Boli is a pro. His critique is right on the money.Intercept: A heal at the end of the duration if it hasn't been triggered? If it hasn't been triggered, why would the heal be needed?Demonstration of Faith:A 1.5k arcane mitigation debuff when something hits the ward? Raid mobs have a debuff cap of some kind, and if the raid is performing properly this debuff will be completely useless. How about an ongoing mitigation debuff vs all damage that can exceed the caps that have been put on mobs debuff? Or how about boosting my mitigation against all damage types by 20% when the ward is up? Then I could time big AOEs with this thing...Lay on Hands power cost: If I'm hitting LoH, it's because I need a big heal NOW. Power is the last thing on my mind.Devout Sacrament power cost: Again, if I'm hitting it it's because I will need a big heal NOW very soon.Boli's suggestions are good.Here are some other things that I would use on my paladin:<ol><li>Another snap - we have fewer than any other tank. Yes, ire procs are available, but not every situation is right for an ire proc.</li><li>A limited stoneskin ability - Most other tanks have at least one button that lets them not joust red text.</li><li>Enhanced combat leadership - give us an AA line that boosts it. One possible way to implementt: 1st AA adds a trigger for entire group, 2nd AA adds 25-50 weapon/magic skills to group, 3rd AA adds 25-50 more weapon/magic skills to group, 4th AA adds cb and potency, 5th and final AA makes it raidwide. That would be worth casting and it would stick with the motif of us boosting our group/raid!.</li><li>A limited duration anti-root immunity: Aura of the Crusader is awesome, but if you have to hit the button before you joust you might not make it. A short duration immunity to roots and snares could be timed for when you know a root/snare is coming. Even cooler would be an AA line that allows you to do it for your group!</li><li>Make the mythical pet immune to AOEs and I'll use it in every fight every time it's up. Make it go around corners and I'll use it to pull. Give it a decent range and I'll use it to pull Statue of Rallos Zek.</li><li>A self-insta resurrection - similar to the group insta-resurrection clerics get, but usable only on me. This would allow me to recover a fight quickly when catastrophe strikes.</li><li>The ability to cure trauma - I'm not sure what prompted the 'no trauma' cures, but I'd pay AA to get the ability.</li></ol>Shadowknights seem to be getting an across-the-board increase in survivability and DPS potential. By comparison, paladins are getting an unneeded change to intercept, a useless change to a heal that already gets cast less than anything else, and power reductions to what are essentially emergency buttons. I am not saying "they got it, so we should get something equivalent". I am, however, questioning the reasoning behind what appears to be a pretty serious discrepancy in changes to the two types of crusader.If GU61 goes live with paladins as is, the ranks of paladins may thin considerably.If you are serious about doing good things to all classes AA lines, I strongly encourage you to read this thread and pay attention to the postings from people who play paladins on a regular basis.

Controlor

08-11-2011, 09:11 PM

<cite>Ymarik wrote:</cite><blockquote>Since I play my paladin more than anything else, I've been following this thread with some interest. I figured I would toss in a bit of feedback as well.Boli is a pro. His critique is right on the money.Intercept: A heal at the end of the duration if it hasn't been triggered? If it hasn't been triggered, why would the heal be needed?Demonstration of Faith:A 1.5k arcane mitigation debuff when something hits the ward? Raid mobs have a debuff cap of some kind, and if the raid is performing properly this debuff will be completely useless. How about an ongoing mitigation debuff vs all damage that can exceed the caps that have been put on mobs debuff? Or how about boosting my mitigation against all damage types by 20% when the ward is up? Then I could time big AOEs with this thing...Lay on Hands power cost: If I'm hitting LoH, it's because I need a big heal NOW. Power is the last thing on my mind.Devout Sacrament power cost: Again, if I'm hitting it it's because I will need a big heal NOW very soon.Boli's suggestions are good.Nothing against Boli but that suggestion of anything not used turned into a ward can make that spell OP. It becomes something you cast to start a fight and get a 25k ward. That would lead to a lot of complaints. However something does need to be done other than reduce power, and dont increase heal amount either unless it is a reactive. If anything i would say that 5th rank adds a 5 trigger reactive or something. Or a temp buff.Here are some other things that I would use on my paladin:<ol><li>Another snap - we have fewer than any other tank. Yes, ire procs are available, but not every situation is right for an ire proc.</li></ol>Yes<ol><li>A limited stoneskin ability - Most other tanks have at least one button that lets them not joust red text.</li></ol>I like the idea of turning Stonewall into a stoneskin if they dont make it immune to strike through. If they have it immune to strike through than possibly change Arch to a stoneskin.<ol><li>Enhanced combat leadership - give us an AA line that boosts it. One possible way to implementt: 1st AA adds a trigger for entire group, 2nd AA adds 25-50 weapon/magic skills to group, 3rd AA adds 25-50 more weapon/magic skills to group, 4th AA adds cb and potency, 5th and final AA makes it raidwide. That would be worth casting and it would stick with the motif of us boosting our group/raid!.</li></ol>Simple way is to have it say 5 triggers instead of 1 or triple / quadruple the damage for that 1 trigger doesnt need another aa line to buff it up.<ol><li>A limited duration anti-root immunity: Aura of the Crusader is awesome, but if you have to hit the button before you joust you might not make it. A short duration immunity to roots and snares could be timed for when you know a root/snare is coming. Even cooler would be an AA line that allows you to do it for your group!</li></ol>This wouldnt happen would be to much anger by non paladin / crusaders for it. <ol><li>Make the mythical pet immune to AOEs and I'll use it in every fight every time it's up. Make it go around corners and I'll use it to pull. Give it a decent range and I'll use it to pull Statue of Rallos Zek.</li></ol>Yes as well as increase the dmg / heal it does. Or change it into another snap spell. Possibly change it so it is still not immune to AOE but it increases hate position by 1 initially and every time the pet hits a mob it increases hate by 1. This would make it into a snap that your not guaranteed to get a lot of hate from but at least 1 hate from.<ol><li>A self-insta resurrection - similar to the group insta-resurrection clerics get, but usable only on me. This would allow me to recover a fight quickly when catastrophe strikes.</li></ol>This wouldnt be that bad of an option instead of arch heal.<ol><li>The ability to cure trauma - I'm not sure what prompted the 'no trauma' cures, but I'd pay AA to get the ability.</li></ol>We have 2 spells that cure trauma, ZS and Consecrate. We can also do like every other non crusader fighter and use potions so i dont see them adding cure trauma to our cure spell. The brawler cure for trauma is on a much longer recast than ours and i dont think ti cures everything either.<ol><li>No rez-sickness when rezzed - this would be cool, unique, and usable.</li></ol>We have the focus that removes the rez effect from our rez if you want to take it so they wont change any AA for it.Shadowknights seem to be getting an across-the-board increase in survivability and DPS potential. By comparison, paladins are getting an unneeded change to intercept, a useless change to a heal that already gets cast less than anything else, and power reductions to what are essentially emergency buttons. I am not saying "they got it, so we should get something equivalent". I am, however, questioning the reasoning behind what appears to be a pretty serious discrepancy in changes to the two types of crusader.If GU61 goes live with paladins as is, the ranks of paladins may thin considerably.If you are serious about doing good things to all classes AA lines, I strongly encourage you to read this thread and pay attention to the postings from people who play paladins on a regular basis. </blockquote>

Talathion

08-11-2011, 09:14 PM

Pallymonks!

Cellia

08-11-2011, 09:54 PM

These GU61's change not cool. Many Paladin need not Healing AA Change.Need Position up ability and stoneskin ability.Paladin is not healer... Paladin is Tank!

Fyang

08-11-2011, 10:29 PM

I'd like to heal. <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Controlor

08-11-2011, 11:14 PM

<cite>Talathion@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>Pallymonks!</blockquote>You confuse me with this statement. Where have we been calling for monk stuff?Pretty much it is:1) current changes on test for paladins are pretty much meaningless as power itself is not an issue with the current mechanics. So they are superficial (and the change to intervene is LAUGHABLE).2) Asking for 1 more positional snap as paladins have the least amount of all the tanks. Dont give me "you have amends" either as hate transfer is capped at 50% so after coercer + dirge + assassin combo in a raid you are only getting like 9% of that transfer from amends. Plus once pretty much any tank has hate they have little trouble holding it, mem wipes paladins are struggling because of lack of snaps.3) Asking for strikethrough on our temp buff for melee avoid (which every temp melee avoid buff should have) and/or 1 decent stoneskin buff that isnt so restrictive as manwell or divine aura. A 1 or 2 hit stone skin buff that would be fine.4) Asking for our Demonstration of Faith +20% ward amount aa to actually GIVE +20% to our ward instead of +6.7%.5) Asking to change Arch healing and our myth clicky.I dont see how this turns us into Pallymonks

Odys

08-11-2011, 11:32 PM

Mythical clicky an arhchealing have to be adressed.

Irgun

08-12-2011, 03:00 AM

<cite>Controlor wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Talathion@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>Pallymonks!</blockquote>You confuse me with this statement. Where have we been calling for monk stuff?Pretty much it is:1) current changes on test for paladins are pretty much meaningless as power itself is not an issue with the current mechanics. So they are superficial (and the change to intervene is LAUGHABLE).2) Asking for 1 more positional snap as paladins have the least amount of all the tanks. Dont give me "you have amends" either as hate transfer is capped at 50% so after coercer + dirge + assassin combo in a raid you are only getting like 9% of that transfer from amends. Plus once pretty much any tank has hate they have little trouble holding it, mem wipes paladins are struggling because of lack of snaps.3) Asking for strikethrough on our temp buff for melee avoid (which every temp melee avoid buff should have) and/or 1 decent stoneskin buff that isnt so restrictive as manwell or divine aura. A 1 or 2 hit stone skin buff that would be fine.4) Asking for our Demonstration of Faith +20% ward amount aa to actually GIVE +20% to our ward instead of +6.7%.5) Asking to change Arch healing and our myth clicky.I dont see how this turns us into Pallymonks</blockquote>qfe!

Cyrdemac

08-12-2011, 04:32 AM

<cite>Controlor wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Talathion@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>Pallymonks!</blockquote>You confuse me with this statement. Where have we been calling for monk stuff?Pretty much it is:1) current changes on test for paladins are pretty much meaningless as power itself is not an issue with the current mechanics. So they are superficial (and the change to intervene is LAUGHABLE).2) Asking for 1 more positional snap as paladins have the least amount of all the tanks. Dont give me "you have amends" either as hate transfer is capped at 50% so after coercer + dirge + assassin combo in a raid you are only getting like 9% of that transfer from amends. Plus once pretty much any tank has hate they have little trouble holding it, mem wipes paladins are struggling because of lack of snaps.3) Asking for strikethrough on our temp buff for melee avoid (which every temp melee avoid buff should have) and/or 1 decent stoneskin buff that isnt so restrictive as manwell or divine aura. A 1 or 2 hit stone skin buff that would be fine.4) Asking for our Demonstration of Faith +20% ward amount aa to actually GIVE +20% to our ward instead of +6.7%.5) Asking to change Arch healing and our myth clicky.I dont see how this turns us into Pallymonks</blockquote>He is referring to the borked AA lines on test where everybody is a Monk right now <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" />And you have got a 46% Amends on raids (+5 on raid boots), so you cap out with another 4% (the reason why Sigil isnt as effective as for other tanks) but yes..Amends is S... on memwhiping mobs, wich are very familiar this addon.

Glenolas

08-12-2011, 05:44 AM

<cite>Talathion@AntoniaBayle wrote</cite><blockquote>Its also really hard to hold aggro when I avoid/stoneskin attacks.</blockquote>Huh??You might want to have your shamans hold off on the wards then. Imagine how many attacks they are causing you to avoid.

Glenolas

08-12-2011, 06:00 AM

<cite>Lawrs@Permafrost wrote:</cite><blockquote><ul><li>"change archheal to a stoneskin so that we'll no longer be the only tanks without a stoneskin"</li></ul></blockquote>For some time my paladin has been able to block all attacks for 8s on about a 1 minute timer. Isn't that the same function as a stoneskin?

Boli32

08-12-2011, 08:58 AM

<cite>Glenolas wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Lawrs@Permafrost wrote:</cite><blockquote><ul><li>"change archheal to a stoneskin so that we'll no longer be the only tanks without a stoneskin"</li></ul></blockquote>For some time my paladin has been able to block all attacks for 8s on about a 1 minute timer. Isn't that the same function as a stoneskin?</blockquote>> Only works for melee attacks> Can be struckthrough> Only works for frontals> doesn't work on 99.9% of Raid mobs AoEs which can one shot you.In short... no at best it reduces melee damage so you have more wards up for AoEs death touches and mad frontals; but we have no way of stopping any potentially one shotting attack other than having our death prevent trigger or using a healer death prevent unlike every other tank; yes some stoneskins are melee only... but hey.. none of yours can be struckthrough...

Maergoth

08-12-2011, 09:32 AM

I posted this in a different thread accidentally, but here's my opinion.. basically the same as a few others.The paladin class currently has 3 major flaws. Below are the issues and suggested fixes either to AAs or otherwise. Our class focuses are also the worst of any class, without a single desireable one. That would be a good place to start.1. Spike Damage / One ShotsShadowknights have many more saves they can use, as well as two more DI triggers. They can preserve those DI triggers much easier by rotating saves, sacrificing one trigger, saves come back up, sacrifice another trigger, saves again, final trigger, DI, saves, DI. This pattern is similar for other classes. Guardians have stoneskins to prevent these absolutely massive frontal AOEs. Brawlers have more saves than I can even count. Paladin saves are so weak we have to use multiple saves at once, AND only have one DI trigger. Having one less save translates to us dying three rounds of AOES earlier. Not just one round earlier. We have zero rotation potential, and none of our heals fix thix problem at all.The solution: Synergize with our passive hategain and change Devout Sacrament into a channeled 5s duration stoneskin. It can completely stun us for all I care. We need an actual stoneskin on a reasonable recast to even remotely scratch the survivability requirements of the expansion. Warriors are monsters of physical damage tanking, there's no reason Crusaders can't have some advantage versus these ridiculous elemental, noxious, and arcane AoEs. Put magic damage reduction on our defensive stance or something instead of arch heal. Equally useful, but for crusaders in general, would be to allow our Int line reflect to be reuse modifiable. It's currently hard locked at 3 minutes flat. AoEs are every 45 seconds or so on average, meaning it's up every 4 sets of AOES or so. Change the heal potency end line to reuse reduction down to a minute and thirty seconds. Divine Aura should be changed to damage reduction, or work on the upper 50% of damage instead of only the lower 50%. Either way, the recast needs to be bumped down. Our ward is underpowered as ever, and needs to be higher value. Lower recast WILL NOT even touch this problem, just double or triple the amount and fix the AA for it.2. Lack of Spike Aggro and VersatilityThis becomes less of an issue if the above gets dealt with. Currently, our hate generation is hinged solidly on amends. This used to be fine, but now everyone is capping hate transfers. Where amends gave us the ability to control the direction of our hate generation, now we absolutely have to put it on the highest dps in the group and have them beating on the same target as everyone else. Sigil of Heroism is a big purple "generate slightly more aggro than normal" button. Our versatility is practically gone, and should that passive transfer hate not go as planned, we're in big trouble.Guardians have reinforcement to do exactly what they need it to. Brawlers have all kinds of unique hate manipulation tools. Our holy ground is a DPS buff that I can't use at will, and it's an aggro tool that doesn't get aggro at will. It's mediocre all around, and while it needed nerfed from the 24 positions it used to be, it's misplaced. Without a solid, unique aggro snap, we can't recover from memwipes or deaths at all. They are the absolute bane of our existence. Our only option is to stack up on so much virulent ire procs that we can't actually use our AOEs or DPS WITHOUT getting aggro. inb4 put it on your bow. You try that, let me know how well it works. I would be fine with dropping the positions and aggro altogether, and just modifying our single target and encounter taunts to have strong positionals for the duration. Brawlers get something like this. Additionally, uncap hate transfer and we'll be able to work with that at least. This problem has a million solutions. We need positionals, and unique versatility. That's that.3. Non-Tanking Utility / DPSFrankly, every single class in the game is getting more and more individually useful. Summoners got their big DPS boost, Shadowknights still have their bloodletters to lean on, Guardians are rivaling brawlers in the strength and number of their temps and saves. Oh, and Brawlers have combat mastery which instantly lands them in the scout group.Paladins, however, have gotten less useful. They have made our heals better since the last time this was all discussed. However, with the massive boost to HP pool since then, they have fallen back into place. We don't need higher values, we need unique tools. The whole problem with the Paladin class is the lack of uniqueness. Our 10 second raid wide buff lost its lustre as being worthy of jcap. Sure, it still helps, but 10 potency and crit bonus is much less noticeable with the huge influx of those stats on every piece of gear.We aren't particularly useful. We have no contributions to the raid that anyone cares about. Nothing worth attaching a macro for. Nothing that is missed when we're playing a different game instead of raiding as a mediocre class. Our DPS is bottom of the barrel, despite the workarounds such as bowing which are getting squashed. Lay hands is an ongoing joke, not because it's useless. Rather, because saving a random scout or mage who is forced to tank following a one-shot paladin and inability to regain control of the mob is the most useful thing the paladin has done all raid. We need utility. We don't need DPS. I'm going to catch flak for this, but I don't care. To be wanted in a raid is a great thing. Our mythical clicky is absolutely worthless. Convert it into the mage equivalent of Combat Mastery so we can at least belong in a group. I like that idea, heard it in Paladin chat. Have it apply to priests too, so it can act as a pseudo save when things get dicy. We need group based utility, and an over-all rehashing of our current abilities. The potency/crit bonus has to be fixed to scale like EVERY OTHER EQUIVALENT ENDLINE. Crusader's Faith giving hit rate bonuses is virtually worthless. Granting huge amount of weapon/casting skills would be more useful. Raid read hit rates are close to 100%. Our DPS can stay the same as long as the hate issues, utility and survivability issues above are addressed.The changes put through on test virtually ignore all of this. Power consumption is definitely not the issue. A heal on interecede.. is creative, but useless. Arcane mit debuff on the ward may improve raid parse, but with a 10 second duration it isn't useful or wanted. I'm not saying our class is currently incapable. I'm definitely not saying we can't perform in specific situations. However, every other class is getting boosted. We are maintaining mediocrity because our abilities all scale poorly with itemization and their uniqueness is being distributed to other classes. Summoners are getting a transfer with the update. Glorious transfer capping for everyone. WE NEED UNIQUENESS. We need to be desireable, and we need to excel at SOMETHING.I happen to be a self-proclaimed authority on the class in general, and have enough of a grasp on current end-game raiding and the game around me to know that these issues do exist and need to be addressed. Preferrably before we become the next ranger or berserker. Oh, and fix berserkers too.

Nakash

08-12-2011, 12:24 PM

<cite>Maergoth wrote:</cite><blockquote>Shadowknights have many more saves they can use, as well as two more DI triggers. They can preserve those DI triggers much easier by rotating saves, sacrificing one trigger, saves come back up, sacrifice another trigger, saves again, final trigger, DI, saves, DI.</blockquote>Dont want to hijack this thread but SK share (along with also having flaws of there own) some major Problems when it comes to Ooops or save spells.Our spells are no stoneskin spells. Furor is based on parry and a strike through passes right throu it wich is no fun with mobs haveing more the 35% strike through. DA is useless against spike damage, bloodletter cant be cycled an will be consumed very quicky. Hatefull Respite absorbs one hit and mobs do AE or specials with double hits. Blood Siphon before an Hard AE can Kill youre Group. Oops spells should be able to work. Mobs avoiding them by strike through or double hits forcing you to use two together and even then its not save. Was very anoying on Zeks Statue to find out that one "save" after the other was bypassed.Upcomming changes will push caster dps again, while taunts are getting more and more useless cause of the gap between aggro and damage been dealt.

Talathion

08-12-2011, 12:28 PM

Your mythical clicky [remove for content] because your mythical has 10% Damage Reduction and 10% Healing When Hit.If you want an awesome mythical clicky, ask to remove your 5% Damage Reduction and 10% Healing When Hit.Paladins are fine, they just need strikethrough Immunity (like all the other tanks), otherwise they are better off then most tanks, brawlers are just OP.

Maergoth

08-12-2011, 12:30 PM

Implyiing you actually have a clue about end-game tank balance. 10% *PHYSICAL* damage reduction is bare minimums. We don't need strikethrough immunity (lawl), and the 10% healing when hit is garbage overall. Check the parse. We don't die randomly to melee hits, this is true.This isn't excellence, it's a standard as a plate tank, and unattributed to our mythical clicky at all. However, other tanks excel in their own way, and we have bare minimums.<cite>Azzaroth@Valor wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Maergoth wrote:</cite><blockquote>Shadowknights have many more saves they can use, as well as two more DI triggers. They can preserve those DI triggers much easier by rotating saves, sacrificing one trigger, saves come back up, sacrifice another trigger, saves again, final trigger, DI, saves, DI.</blockquote>Dont want to hijack this thread but SK share (along with also having flaws of there own) some major Problems when it comes to Ooops or save spells.</blockquote>a one trigger stoneskin is fine when you're coupling it with parry and/or have good timing. We have nothing like that. Your group hp siphon ward is also an acceptable save. Additionally, bloodletter can be recast after you die, because you aren't thrown immediately back into combat. Our death save is balanced around the ability to reuse it in combat, but there's very little difference when dying is much more frequent for a paladin.

Talathion

08-12-2011, 12:32 PM

<cite>Maergoth wrote:</cite><blockquote>Implyiing you actually have a clue about end-game tank balance. 10% damage reduction is bare minimums. We don't need strikethrough immunity (lawl), and the 10% healing when hit is garbage overall. Check the parse. </blockquote>You don't want strikethrough immunity... 10% damage reduction worthless? ... 10% healing forever garbage?Lol ok Buddy...Anyways, since its garbage, just have the dev's remove it and ask for whatever you want...

Maergoth

08-12-2011, 12:36 PM

It's not worthless, it's necessary. 10% damage reduction is good, because we have no reliable alternatives to keep ourselves alive. Absolutely every emergency has to be saved for the AOEs. Even if it means using stonewall to build up wards with demonstration of faith at the last second. Other classes are granted tools, not just buffered with necessity. This isn't a tool.Strikethrough doesn't matter because melee hits don't matter. Only one-shotting AOEs matter, for any tank in the game. Oh, and some tanks don't even have to worry about those.

Talathion

08-12-2011, 12:37 PM

<cite>Maergoth wrote:</cite><blockquote>It's not worthless, it's necessary. 10% damage reduction is good, because we have no reliable alternatives to keep ourselves alive. Absolutely every emergency has to be saved for the AOEs. Even if it means using stonewall to build up wards with demonstration of faith at the last second. Other classes are granted tools, not just buffered with necessity. This isn't a tool.Strikethrough doesn't matter because melee hits don't matter. Only one-shotting AOEs matter, for any tank in the game. Oh, and some tanks don't even have to worry about those.</blockquote>You mean Brawlers?

Maergoth

08-12-2011, 12:40 PM

Brawlers, Shadowknights, even guardians have stoneskins. Paladins have not a single ability that can prevent an AOE.

Talathion

08-12-2011, 12:42 PM

<cite>Maergoth wrote:</cite><blockquote>Brawlers, Shadowknights, even guardians have stoneskins. Paladins have not a single ability that can prevent an AOE.</blockquote>mean either <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" />I TAKE IT LIKE A BRO!!!

Maergoth

08-12-2011, 12:47 PM

Raid something formidable. Your class suffers from similar issues, which doesn't have a place in the paladin thread. At least your class is fun, same with brawlers. Paladins are boring AND underpowered. You have temps, some sort of casting order. Ours is just whack-a-mole.

Talathion

08-12-2011, 12:51 PM

<cite>Maergoth wrote:</cite><blockquote>Raid something formidable. Your class suffers from similar issues, which doesn't have a place in the paladin thread. At least your class is fun, same with brawlers. Paladins are boring AND underpowered. You have temps, some sort of casting order. Ours is just whack-a-mole.</blockquote>I thought I just mashed buttons, thats all I do <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Gungo

08-12-2011, 12:51 PM

In general the paladin clicky should be made immune to non direct aoe just like every other temp pet. (shared stats would make it decent as well)and if paladins are suppose to be a defensive tank they honestly do need some sort of reliable emergency stone skin.

Buzzing

08-12-2011, 03:43 PM

to be honest if the gave us a good emergency stone skin and fixed our ward AA's I would be satisfied. I don't mind doing less dps given that amends can and does make up for it most of the time (considering you can amends the bard and rock three healers in a pinch). My requests would be simpleGive the ward the 20% that the aa says it will bechange stonewall to a 3 hit stoneskin (yes change it as we don't actually need an additional block though I wouldn't argue if you gave it to us as an addition)The only other aa's that are actually that broken is the arch healing... toss it or make it worth while (stoneskin option as apposed to stonewall or at least make the heal on par)

Talathion

08-12-2011, 03:46 PM

Make Arch Heal into:Zealotry:Adds Additional Divine Damage to the Max Damage of Weapons.5-10% of all Caster's Damage Will also Heal the Caster.

Buzzing

08-12-2011, 03:53 PM

<cite>Talathion@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>Make Arch Heal into:Zealotry:Adds Additional Divine Damage to the Max Damage of Weapons.5-10% of all Caster's Damage Will also Heal the Caster.</blockquote>at least I would take it then =)

Buzzing

08-12-2011, 03:58 PM

as for our myth Clicky.... it is useless... but the actual buff is the shizzy so I will continue to cast it on the duck duck goose fights right along with my cows and chickens

Talathion

08-12-2011, 05:03 PM

<cite>Buzzing@Butcherblock wrote:</cite><blockquote>as for our myth Clicky.... it is useless... but the actual buff is the shizzy so I will continue to cast it on the duck duck goose fights right along with my cows and chickens</blockquote>Change Myth Clicky to a Stoneskin that Absorbs 1 Non-Physical Damage Attack, 1 min reuse, lasts 30 seconds.Call it Spellsword.

Buzzing

08-12-2011, 06:11 PM

<cite>Talathion@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Buzzing@Butcherblock wrote:</cite><blockquote>as for our myth Clicky.... it is useless... but the actual buff is the shizzy so I will continue to cast it on the duck duck goose fights right along with my cows and chickens</blockquote>Change Myth Clicky to a Stoneskin that Absorbs 1 Non-Physical Damage Attack, 1 min reuse, lasts 30 seconds.Call it Spellsword.</blockquote>I would take it =)

lollipop

08-12-2011, 06:45 PM

<cite>Talathion@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Buzzing@Butcherblock wrote:</cite><blockquote>as for our myth Clicky.... it is useless... but the actual buff is the shizzy so I will continue to cast it on the duck duck goose fights right along with my cows and chickens</blockquote>Change Myth Clicky to a Stoneskin that Absorbs 1 Non-Physical Damage Attack, 1 min reuse, lasts 30 seconds.Call it Spellsword.</blockquote>1 non-physical attack over 40% of the paly's max HP would be nice

lollipop

08-12-2011, 06:48 PM

Tho the honest root of the problem is bad designed content. They made content able to one shot tanks over and over unless group and single ward is on them. Making it impossible to raid one without several shaman. And two made classes that can stoneskin attacks maditory if your shamans cant time it perfect or you have several death prevents and your dps is so high it dies before they run out.Instead of trying to balance all the tanks around that poor design , maybe they need to take a look at how they designed things, yes the mobs needed higher outgoing dps but NO they didnt need massive 90-100k hits break em up small but faster.

Odys

08-12-2011, 11:51 PM

<cite>lollipop wrote:</cite><blockquote>Tho the honest root of the problem is bad designed content. They made content able to one shot tanks over and over unless group and single ward is on them. Making it impossible to raid one without several shaman. And two made classes that can stoneskin attacks maditory if your shamans cant time it perfect or you have several death prevents and your dps is so high it dies before they run out.Instead of trying to balance all the tanks around that poor design , maybe they need to take a look at how they designed things, yes the mobs needed higher outgoing dps but NO they didnt need massive 90-100k hits break em up small but faster.</blockquote>I fully agree, mob average dps on let's say 1mn is pathetic, but it's insane on 1-2 seconds. It more or less made warder kings and clerics princes.It made Daura probably useless (hit for more than 50%) and made stoneskins almost mandatory.I also dislike the amount of DPS check figth that are there, if you above a threshold the encounter is trivial if not it's very hard or impossible. 5% more dps should never decrease the encounter difficulty by 100%.Indeed people running the encounter design shop are really poor designers. The only way they found to make something difficult was to enforce insta curing and to introduce mad spike damage.

Maergoth

08-13-2011, 03:34 AM

That's something else I meant to mention. Paladins do well with poor setups, whereas other tanks kind of rely on being set up for.I can be thrown into the mage group, amends the warlock, and do better than pretty much any tank in that situation. Other tanks would have aggro issues, where we have amends. Other tanks would have survivability issues without wards, but our heals actually become useful when we're not locked green (Assuming we don't get one-shotted).The hitch though is that unfortunately, the offtank can't survive in the mage group currently, and they are having groups built around them. If you're getting a tailored group, then that benefit is completely null and void.<ul><li>You'll have cleric shaman, which makes our heals near useless. </li><li>You'll have aggro of some kind if you need to hold a mob being burned down. You will most likely get either a dirge or a coercer, making it easy to throw a scout transfer in there.</li><li> At this point we don't really have the advantage of amends because any tank will be getting huge transfers and hate gain. Sure, we will be getting more transfers in most situations and our hate will still "keep up", assuming our amends target is able to stay in on the mob we are fighting. Unfortunately, skirting by is not good. Other tanks have more reliable aggro tools at this point, and can easily be capped on transfers themselves.</li></ul>So the raid leader has built a solid offtank group.. now to choose the tank for it. If you answered Paladin, you are wrong. So wrong, that you are now aware of our issue. The same goes for the main tank position. There is just someone better for everything, and the more our group gains, the more our class diminishes in excellence.We are fine for casual raiding, we always have been.A rez is a crutch for the poor jouster,heals are crutches for lack of heal buttons being pressed or a single healer group in easy content.Our hate gain plus weaker positionals are plenty to handle memwipes or death induced aggro recovery in a raid doing much lower damage. Holy ground's numerical threat addition is massive in low threat low dps situations.Our raid wide potency / crit bonus buff is great for people who don't have all the gear.This is a pattern that is maintained if you compare our usefulness in endgame raiding versus casual raiding. In pretty much every situation, we seem balanced for doing well facing adversity. We need to be balanced for hardcore raiding as well, and there's absolutely no reason our class can't scale properly. % based heals, or properly modifiable ones. More hate positions somewhere instead of numerical threat on holy ground, since positions take over when DPS ramps up. Saves that don't wimp out when the heat gets turned up (Divine Aura lol).Keep this all in mind. Will apend it to the main post for ease of access.<a href="list.m?topic_id=504754%EF%BF%BD"></a><a href="list.m?topic_id=504754">Current Paladin Issues</a>

Maergoth

08-13-2011, 06:50 AM

<cite>Maergoth wrote:</cite><blockquote>Equally useful, but for crusaders in general, would be to allow our Int line reflect to be reuse modifiable. It's currently hard locked at 3 minutes flat. AoEs are every 45 seconds or so on average, meaning it's up every 4 sets of AOES or so. Change the heal potency end line to reuse reduction down to a minute and thirty seconds.√</blockquote>One catagory down, though it would be nice if we didn't share every save with shadowknights (Manawall, reflect, divine aura). Still holding out for something unique.Next: Snaps. Keep it up please, you're making this crusade worth it for once.

Cyrdemac

08-13-2011, 09:08 AM

<div>Enhance: Lay of Hands reduced Power cost by 15% (around 50 Mana?)Enhance: Devout Sacrifice reduced Power cost by 15% (around 40 Mana?)Enhance: Demonstration of Faith debuffing Mobs hitting Target of Ward by 1480 divine for 10 seconds (a ward with 30 sec recast wich expires after one hit due to its low value)Enhance: Intercept healing the target when it expires naturally without triggering by 10% of targets HP? (around 4k heal after 1 minute and 40 sec on a 40k hp mage? Will he even notice it?)Overall..uselessAlmost loled when I saw, how useless they were.</div>

Irgun

08-13-2011, 10:42 AM

Left:- Stonewall: strikethrough-immunity- Holy Ground: revert it back to a shortbuff, but with only 1position/hit- Arch-Heal: there are so many possibilities to change this into something usefule.g. a shortbuff like self-equilibrium: if a blow would be fatal heals paladin by 50%hp + stoneskins next 2 hitsORa plain stoneskin for a few hitsORa huge damagereduction (limited duration) + a ward-syphon based on the grps powerORa passive ability influencing our heals SIGNIFICANTLY, e.g. allowing crits again, or increasing base by 33% and adding a stoneskin to e.g. Devout Sacrament etc.No matter in what it gets changed, it should be something that if you click it, you wont die instantly, meaning no stupid restictions like on Divine Aura.

Maergoth

08-13-2011, 12:34 PM

Please don't give us strikethrough immunity. As plate tanks, we take melee hits just fine. I wouldn't trade AOE survivability for melee survivability any day. Stonewall already gets the job done. Strikethroughs aren't good, but are never an "issue".That's brawler territory, and that's fine. It's their uniqueness.1 position per hit on holy ground would annihilate its use for DPS purposes, and the softcore snap potential that acts as an advantage over Sacrament. Adds spawn, holy ground, aoes, oops.. named. Co op struck.Stoneskins.. yes. Steal groups mana for a ward.. why?Heal bonuses: No. No amount of boosted heal amount will make them practical. They will still be fundamentally flawed in the sense that they do not help us recover. If a big AOE hits and knocks us down to near dead, 100% healing with lay hands does not allow our wards or reactives to recover and stabilize us.Reliability is important, however, so I agree there.Please keep in mind that these changes are supposed to fix issues with the class, not issues you're having with the class. I'm not trying to be arrogant, but it's a waste of everyone's time to implement imbalanced or inappropriate changes. Just try to keep that in mind when making suggestions. They don't get much feedback, but different feedback isn't always productive.

Irgun

08-13-2011, 03:20 PM

I agree on the stonewall-strikethroughpart.Holy ground as a snap tool: yes, for dps purpose: not primarelyAnd you dont have to aoe next to the named on spawning adds - just use a macro or cycle through them and pull them individually, its quite possible since adds get their coop-buff 6secs after spawning.So Holy Ground as a shortbuff like it used to be would be the better option.And yes, an improvement of our given heals shouldnt be necessary if Archhealing or our Mythclickie would be changed in something that really saves us if we`re in need.Oh, and Demonstration of Faith AA should increase the ward by 20% as in the description, if not: just change the description to 6.7% so people are more aware its false advertising atm. ~

Controlor

08-13-2011, 07:20 PM

If HG was 1 hate position per hit it would make it too powerful of a snap. AT most if you were increasing the snap of it you would change the initial hit to 3 to 5 positions. This would be in line with other things as it is unresistable and 45 sec reuse (after caping reuse). This would allow you to still use it as an OT tool if you dont want agro on named .... Back out of combat 10 meters then HG than joust to pop back in (as joust is 15 meters).Also what did they do with the reflect end line?

Irgun

08-14-2011, 05:13 AM

<cite>Controlor wrote:</cite><blockquote>If HG was 1 hate position per hit it would make it too powerful of a snap. </blockquote>Not really, reinforcement is the same.

Maergoth

08-14-2011, 05:13 AM

Legionaire's Conviction is now a 2 minute reuse, still unmodifiable by your own reuse though.Reinforcement is overpowered, but that's their unique aggro tool. I wouldn't even want reinforcement.

Boli32

08-14-2011, 09:10 AM

Two small things will allow the paladin to compete competativly for the tank spot in hard mode content.1. Another snap; 3min reuse and 5 positions would be ideal..2. A Stoneskin effect ideally on approximatly 60s timer single trigger but max health checkThose two things a paladin is not asking for to be ubbah or even overpowered... just so we can actually do our job properly in raids - throwing more heals at us just won't work as however powerful heals are you cannot heal yourself if you are already dead. We are meant to be the second most defensive tank in game... or joint most defensive with guards but quite franky we are not. Swap our myth clicky and arch heal for the above and you wuill have a fixed, but not completly over powered class.

Maergoth

08-14-2011, 11:25 PM

Any plans to cover the utility and aggro issues brought up before?

Talathion

08-14-2011, 11:31 PM

Guys, edit your first page with all the feedback your getting.Your first page is a mess, make it easier to read so the devs can see your feedback.