Warden AAs on test [Archive] - EQ2 Forum Archive @ EQ2Wire

Odys

08-02-2011, 03:52 AM

I know that our class is not supported nymore, but let's try.Ok so the only change made is the cure final that now will cure if someone health fall below 50%. This could be interesting.BUT STILL like 60 or 70 AAS are currently useless (in group or raid) in the warden tree. Movement AAS :They are fine, but it's mostly to solo or do the rare heroic in which rooting is interesting.The only AA that is really almost useless is Improve snare.CA AAS :-- CA AAs are still almost useless due to very long recast time on those abilties. Currently the spell version do more damage and can be used twice mor often.==> Reuse time must be ajusted & damage revisited.CURE AASFuries do get "herbal remedies" which works on any cure. In our cure tree we have like 5-6 different abilties and all do crap. Using 20 AAS we don't even get close to the effect of herbal remedies with 5 ranks.Either suppress the cure AA or let them work on any cure.- Ability one grant HOT on any cure (like herbal remedies)- Ability two grant a ward.- Ability three ??- Ability 4 decrease the tick interval for tranquility , with rank it would be 1-2 second (in order to make the spell usefull)This or just invent something else.Enhance healing grove :We don't use our tree anymore since he may does 100 hps for the 2 second he lives. Replace this AA or change the healing grove spell.Enhance death intervention :Even with the 10% crit bonus the spell is still extremelly weak. Remove 5 AAs (cure tree, healing grove) and let us get 5% max health heal per rank (so up to 25%).We also need very much a group version of instinct costing 5 points.

ChrissyFaey

08-02-2011, 05:48 AM

I will first state that I do not often participate in heroic content while on my warden so I cannot speak on behalf of balance in this context - wardens, in my experience, are one of the better healers for this level of game-play. Now that they have been given a charm ability, soloing will be quite a bit more fun.The real problem with the class manifests itself on raids - and it's an imaginary problem in a few ways. The lack of desirability for wardens comes from the inability of ACT to accurately show a warden's contributions to a raid. Wardens just don't get many tools to help them feel like they're doing as much as the other priests due to the parse-based nature of the high end game.It is a fun class, and it would get more appreciation if the game wasn't as DPS oriented as it is. But that really cannot be helped. It's hard to strike the balance when it comes to defensive healers ... the only reason defilers haven't fallen out of popularity is because wards are the best mechanic for healing.Anyhow, here's my thoughts ~Movement Line - Enhance: Willow Wisp and Enhance: Spirit of the Wolf are pretty great AA's, though I have not found much use for the snare or root abilities. Being a melee priest with an offensive stance to support melee combat, being able to root better doesn't really do much for soloing as it would a more spell-based damage dealer. It doesn't bode changing since it makes sense when you take Nature Walk that the ones leading up to it involved root - and well, Nature Walk is one of those abilities keeping wardens desirable.Wardens Tree (Or Combat Arts) - I like everything about these AA's, though I have heard that the damage calculation for combat arts is off somewhere. They're definitely worth taking still ... if most content does not call for a defensive priest, then you might as well help what you can by damaging. It's good to have that option, plus the offensive stance is tied in to these abilities and will only proc off combat arts and not spells (unfortunatey!).Renewal - Enhance: Resurrection is pretty medicore. Our resurrection spells cast too slow to really compete with the other rezzers on board, and most people tend to get mad when they're stuck with rez sickness a minute later like some nerf ninja sniping them. Shame, since warden rezzes are like minature bolster buffs. Enhance: Healing Grove is useless. I agree with the above. Since regeneration heals count last after wards and reactives, the two warden pets do little to nothing most of the time. I only cast this thing when I want to look cool by standing next to a palm tree for screenshot opportunities.Enhance: Death Intervention and Reformation are rather good. I definitely value the reuse speed on the death prevention spells - though it has lost some value since capping reuse time. I wish the death saves were more reliable ... since they do not heal so much, it's easy for the second trigger to fire instantly and the tank to immediately get flurried into oblivion. Instead of improving crit bonus or heal amount, I'd prefer a damage reduction component added to the saves after successfully triggering. Lessen the amount of deaths from poor luck involving multi-attacks and flurries.Remedies (Cure) Line - On test, I was having difficulty assigning AA's for my warden since I really did not want many of these. There is no need to desire adding a small heal over time to either the group or single cures... a warden is always doing heal over time spells, and most of the potential healing there is soaked up by wards and reactives. I'd probably prefer a temporary max HP or defensive buff added to cures instead of these. One of the AA provides a damage shield on cure ... which is not all that useful, since it means one must cast neitherTunare's Grace nor Verdant Whisper, and instead single target cure the tank, for this one to do anything. It provides unlikely benefits to single target cure any other group member with this one. It would be -greatly- improved were it changed instead to a damage proc of a similar manner to Tunare's Grace.Shatter Infections. I hear they reduced the radius and the duration because previously it would only proc once on a person, rather than cure for the duration. Even so, it is too situational to be very desirable. Currently there isn't very much in between when it comes to detriments ... they land, and you cure them - or they land, and one shot your group. What I would love to see is a death save component added to this ability so it protects briefly from one shot deaths, and actually has a chance to trigger.Group Instinct has been something desired by the warden community for a very long time. It would result in furies getting group primal fury, of course, if it were ever granted. Primal fury is a better spell for furies than instinct is for wardens when it comes doing their primary job, so it'd likely drive folks crazy all the more. Wouldn't mind the added utility from it, but it might cause a bit of a balance gap for a priest that brings so much defense to also provide so great an offense. The class does feel like it needs something to be more desirable, but I think most of it is frustration due to the defensive tools not being as capable as they should be. But hey, I'd take instinct if they offered!

Odys

08-02-2011, 07:43 AM

Well even if it seems contradcitory i agree with your post.For CA : i always have them, but the converted spell damage is too low and recast too high.For cure : All priest plagued with a cure tree want it to be remove or made usefull. Having AA for specific cure is a non sense, we cure in a 4 ways (tunare, verdant wisper, single cure, tranquility). Cure AA should either help against spike damage or allow a more pro-active curing (tranquility quikcer tick, group tranquility ...)Movement : cool AAs but almost useless at level cap --- sure i was rooting in Erudin Palace, and i sometimes root in Kael 2). They are very sweet when you solo from 1 to 90.Anti deaht : I m fed up to see a tank 1 shot with 2 improved anti death on + hierophantic genesis, turtle shell, and muy regens on.Rez : Not only we have a poor casting time but also a very short range. We are probably the worst rezzer in game. Some cure AAs could be reverted into rezzing AAs.

Rosvita

08-02-2011, 10:08 AM

I've been saying for a long time that the entire warden tree needs looking at I agree with most of whats being saidNature's walk is awesome and I love it but wardens really don't use roots cause we are melee.CA conversions don't scale correctly and the recast is abysmalOur rezzes are pathetic even when improved and the death interventions even when used proactively can failThe cure line is a joke (might I also same the same of the mystic and templar cure lines too) and the changes to shatter infection which few take already make it even more pointless.

Wolfsbaine

08-02-2011, 12:14 PM

I would love to see them get rid of a few things on the Wardens. I love playing that class and I think they should give us more Melee tools. I would love to get rid of the CA versions of our spells. Yeah sometimes they do a tiny bit more damage but the recast is terrible. I think wardens are still viable in raids. I WISH they would take the charm and mez crap and throw it out the window. I would have to drop a couple decent buffs off myself or group members just to charm a mob for 7 mins. That to me doesnt seem like it is worth it. Another thing I would like to see is them to actually MAKE slashing weapons for healers. I love having a sword to hack at mobs and if I want to do something like that I have to use my enervated. I would love to see the warden class focus more on the melee aspect of DPS. I dont want to se us doing 100k DPS because we are primarly healers first. I think something like Instinct proccing off melee hits for us would be batter. I would also like to see aspect of the forest turned into a group buff, or the group HP buff raised a lil bit more.

ChrissyFaey

08-02-2011, 02:41 PM

We seem to have two threads on this subject ... oops.Wardens probably shouldn't receive more damage. Despite sharing combat art lines with mystics and inquisitors, there's a pretty big difference in the mentality that went behind each class. Wardens are supposed to be more in line with Templars when it comes to defense - it's just really not working out too well that way for either classes.Some tweaks I would like to see for the class.Infuriating Thorns - Made to cast instantly. It is the only save that wardens can cast outside their group and it loses a lot of its strength when there is a cast time attached to it.Tunare's Watch, Nature's Renewal (Death Saves) - The base reuse times for these abilities is 5 and 10 minutes respectively, and wardens receive an AA that reduces the reuse time by 50 percent. Wardens already endeavor to have reuse speed as high as they can manage, which has no effect on these reduced abilities. It would be good were the base reuse times of these spells reduced so that they can be used more reliably in timing hard-hitting aoes since we have very few tools to address spike damage.Cyclone - The same as above. 10 minute recast base, and isn't too much better than Divine Guidance that recasts every three minutes for a cleric, and that's group wide. The base reuse of cyclone really ought to be halved so it sees more viability.Shatter Infections - Mentioned above. Give it some measure of death prevention or damage reduction so we actually see it work. Most detriments are nothing or all when it comes to the HP bar, and wardens are left standing blankly when that one shot happens.Nature Walk - With the change coming in regarding moving while casting, it would be REALLY awesome if Nature Walk reduced the slow it causes some. Raiders would certainly desire wardens if they could reduce that penalty as well.Heroic Tree Endline ~ Faith of the Fallen ... it completely heals a target and provides a ward equal to the amount healed. It very likely does not belong with the class that has heal over time spells constantly ticking and reducing the maximum effectiveness it will land by the second. Would rather this ability be scrapped and something entirely different put in its place - maybe a duration health increase / damage reduction / stat boost for the group instead. I tend to spec Howling of the Pack and haven't been inclined to spec otherwise in some time.

crackers_87

08-03-2011, 08:32 AM

<cite>Wolfsbaine@The Bazaar wrote:</cite><blockquote>I would love to see them get rid of a few things on the Wardens. I love playing that class and I think they should give us more Melee tools. I would love to get rid of the CA versions of our spells. Yeah sometimes they do a tiny bit more damage but the recast is terrible. I think wardens are still viable in raids. I WISH they would take the charm and mez crap and throw it out the window. I would have to drop a couple decent buffs off myself or group members just to charm a mob for 7 mins. That to me doesnt seem like it is worth it. Another thing I would like to see is them to actually MAKE slashing weapons for healers. I love having a sword to hack at mobs and if I want to do something like that I have to use my enervated. I would love to see the warden class focus more on the melee aspect of DPS. I dont want to se us doing 100k DPS because we are primarly healers first. I think something like Instinct proccing off melee hits for us would be batter. I would also like to see aspect of the forest turned into a group buff, or the group HP buff raised a lil bit more.</blockquote>!!!!!!!No Don't Get rid of CA versions of our spells!!!!!!!! Being able to do 100k+ dps & still keep my group up & cured is what keeps me in raid full time.

Hamervelder

08-04-2011, 04:51 AM

<cite>Gorock@Storms wrote:</cite><blockquote>I know that our class is not supported nymore, but let's try.Ok so the only change made is the cure final that now will cure if someone health fall below 50%. This could be interesting.BUT STILL like 60 or 70 AAS are currently useless (in group or raid) in the warden tree. Movement AAS :They are fine, but it's mostly to solo or do the rare heroic in which rooting is interesting.The only AA that is really almost useless is Improve snare.CA AAS :-- CA AAs are still almost useless due to very long recast time on those abilties. Currently the spell version do more damage and can be used twice mor often.==> Reuse time must be ajusted & damage revisited.CURE AASFuries do get "herbal remedies" which works on any cure. In our cure tree we have like 5-6 different abilties and all do [Removed for Content]. Using 20 AAS we don't even get close to the effect of herbal remedies with 5 ranks.Either suppress the cure AA or let them work on any cure.- Ability one grant HOT on any cure (like herbal remedies)- Ability two grant a ward.- Ability three ??- Ability 4 decrease the tick interval for tranquility , with rank it would be 1-2 second (in order to make the spell usefull)This or just invent something else.Enhance healing grove :We don't use our tree anymore since he may does 100 hps for the 2 second he lives. Replace this AA or change the healing grove spell.Enhance death intervention :Even with the 10% crit bonus the spell is still extremelly weak. Remove 5 AAs (cure tree, healing grove) and let us get 5% max health heal per rank (so up to 25%).We also need very much a group version of instinct costing 5 points.</blockquote>I think your post is generally accurate, with the exception of your opinion concerning CA's and your assessment of our DI's. Regarding the Wardens line, check the parses of some of the top-parsing wardens. They're not using our spells, they're using our CA's. Even though the spells do a little bit more damage and recast a bit faster than the CA's, they don't trigger Glacial Assault, and that makes a huge difference. Glacial Assault can trigger for well over 10k in a raid setting, and none of the spells do enough damage to offset that amount. The CA's also cast much faster than the spells, so where you may only get one or two spells off between auto-attacks, I can get four CA's and a group heal off in the same time. Plus, with seven CA's to choose from, by the time I finish the second round of casting, some of my CA's are coming up again and ready to go.Regarding Enhance: Death Intervention, I used to share your opinion, until DoV came along and boosted crit bonus and potency immensely. My DI's heal the group nearly to full when they trigger, and with Reformation, both DI's trigger twice. Having a two-trigger group DI and a two-trigger individual DI is absolutely essential. Most of our other AA's are somewhat blah, although being immune to root is essential to any warden, in my opinion. The entire cure line, with the exception to Ehance: Cure Curse is useless, and the update to warden AA's doesn't change that. I like the changes you suggested to the cure line. At this point, almost anything would be an improvement to that line.

Odys

08-04-2011, 05:56 AM

Well currently we don't die anymoe -- at least in my group -- since we are finishing the EM content, so i simply cannot see see DI snce we stay in the green even with me in offensive stance. But when i did some run in original drunder my anti death could not save a tank taking 100K hits (both where running).Next raid i will try to find them of the parse <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />I did tries on a target dummy, and my dps is quite the same with spells or CA. I agree that CA may help a bit but honestly i could really do without -- till dov i would have cried without them --. Moreover in half of the encounters i m not in melee range.The reason why in "top parse" people use CA is simple they use the melee battle stance because they are buffed by inqui/subju or illu. Without haste/dps mod buf the spell casting stance + furie spec (+10% to spell) just output as much damage as melee stance + glacial assault and CA.Note also that this depend on how long is the fight <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />.