So this has always bugged me... brawlers have more mitigation then plates? [Archive]

Talathion

07-14-2011, 05:50 PM

Why do brawlers have more mitigation then plate tanks? And almost double there avoidance? And the highest health?And the best fighter DPS and the best Accuracy?And the best Damage Reduction abilitys?Just wondering why is all.

Silzin

07-14-2011, 06:01 PM

<cite>Talathion@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>Why do brawlers have more mitigation then plate tanks? And almost double there avoidance? And the highest health?And the best fighter DPS and the best Accuracy?And the best Damage Reduction abilitys?Just wondering why is all.</blockquote>It looks like YOU think that ALL of your questions are true?When given equal gear, adorns, stances, skill, and buffs.... only the avoidance line is true, and plate tanks come can come very close to your uncontested block.

Talathion

07-14-2011, 06:03 PM

<cite>Silzin@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Talathion@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>Why do brawlers have more mitigation then plate tanks? And almost double there avoidance? And the highest health?And the best fighter DPS and the best Accuracy?And the best Damage Reduction abilitys?Just wondering why is all.</blockquote>It looks like YOU think that ALL of your questions are true?When given equal gear, adorns, stances, skill, and buffs.... only the avoidance line is true, and plate tanks come can come very close to your uncontested block.</blockquote>No Strikethrough Immunity makes uncontested block worthless.

Buzzing

07-14-2011, 06:19 PM

if your brawler friends are showing you up at survivability, then you need to suck less...

Silzin

07-14-2011, 06:48 PM

whether a mob has any Strikethrough or not has no bearing on the players avoidance. it has a lot to do with how your avoidance is checked, but not on your uncontested block #. I know that mobs Strikethrough reduces the effective avoidance of plat tanks, but mobs with large amounts of Strikethrough could not be as common as it is in this expansion.

Bruener

07-14-2011, 06:52 PM

They don't have the same mitigation, it is however pretty close now. And with abilities added to avoid one shots they will take less damage overall. I believe the one ability is a proc for 40% damage reduction for like 3 seconds after taking a hit...basically making it so a MA second hit is going to do a lot less damage than it would on any other tank.Hit for hit Brawlers do not take any higher spike damage than Plate tanks.Avoidance gap has actually grown due to strike thru while the actual damage taken on a hit has shrunk considerably.Not sure how Brawlers even die in this game being able to cycle thru abilities that truly avoid all melee hits half the time and filling in with everything else they have or the other half of the time.Nothing is forever though and all things come to an end.

Silzin

07-14-2011, 07:02 PM

Bruener its 30%, and its up for 3 sec's out of every 30 sec's. So 10% of the time, ya it helps us not randomly get 1 shotted any more and is needed.

Corydonn

07-14-2011, 07:06 PM

<cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote>Nothing is forever though and all things come to an end.</blockquote>Diamonds are forever, And I'm the Cullinan.P.S. Talathion our warden has more mitgation than you do, So quit whining.

Bruener

07-14-2011, 07:07 PM

<cite>Corydonn wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote>Nothing is forever though and all things come to an end.</blockquote>Diamonds are forever, And I'm the Cullinan.</blockquote>Princess Cut!!!!

Buzzing

07-14-2011, 07:14 PM

<cite>Silzin@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote>whether a mob has any Strikethrough or not has no bearing on the players avoidance. it has a lot to do with how your avoidance is checked, but not on your uncontested block #. I know that mobs Strikethrough reduces the effective avoidance of plat tanks, but mobs with large amounts of Strikethrough could not be as common as it is in this expansion. </blockquote>Only if you assume that we don't want the brawlers to die at random <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/908627bbe5e9f6a080977db8c365caff.gif" border="0" />

Bruener

07-14-2011, 07:59 PM

They should make a mechanic on mobs that is a % chance of ignoring all mitigation.And than they should make all Plate tanks immune to it when in defensive stance.Woot <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/97ada74b88049a6d50a6ed40898a03d7.gif" border="0" />

Talathion

07-14-2011, 08:10 PM

<cite>Silzin@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote>Bruener its 30%, and its up for 3 sec's out of every 30 sec's (10 seconds, not 30, I look at every other tanks skills!). So 10% of the time, ya it helps us not randomly get 1 shotted any more and is needed.</blockquote>Um.. you dodge and parry and block so much its more like this"its up every time its needed"

Corydonn

07-14-2011, 08:13 PM

<cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote>They should make a mechanic on mobs that is a % chance of ignoring all mitigation.And than they should make all Plate tanks immune to it when in defensive stance.Woot <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/97ada74b88049a6d50a6ed40898a03d7.gif" border="0" /></blockquote>Brawlers would be immune without any stances unless the mob is a diamond or is using a diamond weapon or has diamond claws.

Bruener

07-14-2011, 08:18 PM

<cite>Silzin@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote>Bruener its 30%, and its up for 3 sec's out of every 30 sec's. So 10% of the time, ya it helps us not randomly get 1 shotted any more and is needed.</blockquote>Actually Silzin your right it is 30% but it can be up every 10 sec.Maybe for you it is every 30 sec because that is how often you actually get hit.

Buzzing

07-14-2011, 08:20 PM

<cite>Talathion@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Silzin@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote>Bruener its 30%, and its up for 3 sec's out of every 30 sec's (10 seconds, not 30, I look at every other tanks skills!). So 10% of the time, ya it helps us not randomly get 1 shotted any more and is needed.</blockquote>Um.. you dodge and parry and block so much its more like this"its up every time its needed"</blockquote>Wait hold on... I wan't to see tears!! If your dieing to much do something else...

Morghus

07-14-2011, 08:21 PM

The thing about Tuor is, he can't ever learn how to step up his game. He has to bring everyone and everything down to his level in order to stand a chance, or even feel good about himself. If he cant do it, it's impossible. If someone else can, they shouldn't.

Talathion

07-14-2011, 08:23 PM

<cite>Buzzing@Butcherblock wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Talathion@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Silzin@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote>Bruener its 30%, and its up for 3 sec's out of every 30 sec's (10 seconds, not 30, I look at every other tanks skills!). So 10% of the time, ya it helps us not randomly get 1 shotted any more and is needed.</blockquote>Um.. you dodge and parry and block so much its more like this"its up every time its needed"</blockquote>Wait hold on... I wan't to see tears!! If your dieing to much do something else...</blockquote>says the person playing a brawler, probably, since you can't die.

Talathion

07-14-2011, 08:29 PM

<cite>Morghus wrote:</cite><blockquote>The thing about Tuor is, he can't ever learn how to step up his game. He has to bring everyone and everything down to his level in order to stand a chance, or even feel good about himself. If he cant do it, it's impossible. If someone else can, they shouldn't.</blockquote>I remember certain unnamed brawlers saying the same thing about berserkers in SF...What did we get?Heal Crit Nerf...Blood Rage Nerf...Berserk Nerf...Adrenaline Nerf..Lets not derail the subject though.

Morghus

07-14-2011, 08:31 PM

<cite>Talathion@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Morghus wrote:</cite><blockquote>The thing about Tuor is, he can't ever learn how to step up his game. He has to bring everyone and everything down to his level in order to stand a chance, or even feel good about himself. If he cant do it, it's impossible. If someone else can, they shouldn't.</blockquote>I remember certain unnamed brawlers saying the same thing about berserkers in SF...What did we get?Heal Crit Nerf...Blood Rage Nerf...Berserk Nerf...Adrenaline Nerf..Lets not derail the subject though.</blockquote>I remember no such thing. Also, I am not a brawler.

Silzin

07-14-2011, 08:54 PM

<cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Silzin@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote>Bruener its 30%, and its up for 3 sec's out of every 30 sec's. So 10% of the time, ya it helps us not randomly get 1 shotted any more and is needed.</blockquote>Actually Silzin your right it is 30% but it can be up every 10 sec.Maybe for you it is every 30 sec because that is how often you actually get hit.</blockquote>I apologize Bruener, i didnt intend on it being an attach on you, just trying to corect an obvious mistake and i make one my self.

Bruener

07-14-2011, 08:59 PM

<cite>Silzin@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Silzin@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote>Bruener its 30%, and its up for 3 sec's out of every 30 sec's. So 10% of the time, ya it helps us not randomly get 1 shotted any more and is needed.</blockquote>Actually Silzin your right it is 30% but it can be up every 10 sec.Maybe for you it is every 30 sec because that is how often you actually get hit.</blockquote>I apologize Bruener, i didnt intend on it being an attach on you, just trying to corect an obvious mistake and i make one my self.</blockquote>Luv ya man.I really only got in this thread to stir up the converstations with Cory in guild chat!!!!

Talathion

07-14-2011, 09:05 PM

<cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Silzin@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Silzin@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote>Bruener its 30%, and its up for 3 sec's out of every 30 sec's. So 10% of the time, ya it helps us not randomly get 1 shotted any more and is needed.</blockquote>Actually Silzin your right it is 30% but it can be up every 10 sec.Maybe for you it is every 30 sec because that is how often you actually get hit.</blockquote>I apologize Bruener, i didnt intend on it being an attach on you, just trying to corect an obvious mistake and i make one my self.</blockquote>Luv ya man.I really only got in this thread to stir up the converstations with Cory in guild chat!!!!</blockquote>I only started it cuz its troo.

Dorieon

07-15-2011, 03:15 AM

<cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote>They should make a mechanic on mobs that is a % chance of ignoring all mitigation.And than they should make all Plate tanks immune to it when in defensive stance.Woot <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/97ada74b88049a6d50a6ed40898a03d7.gif" border="0" /></blockquote>I agree, and when they do that they should also make mobs with 100% strikethrough and make them crit double attack any tank not a brawler trying to tank them.Oh and all trash should have 100% strikethrough.Woot <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/97ada74b88049a6d50a6ed40898a03d7.gif" border="0" />

Bruener

07-15-2011, 11:04 AM

<cite>Dorieon@Guk wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote>They should make a mechanic on mobs that is a % chance of ignoring all mitigation.And than they should make all Plate tanks immune to it when in defensive stance.Woot <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/97ada74b88049a6d50a6ed40898a03d7.gif" border="0" /></blockquote>I agree, and when they do that they should also make mobs with 100% strikethrough and make them crit double attack any tank not a brawler trying to tank them.Oh and all trash should have 100% strikethrough.Woot <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/97ada74b88049a6d50a6ed40898a03d7.gif" border="0" /></blockquote>Well I do believe they have had some mobs that can buff up to 100% strikethru.....still waiting for the mit ignore mechanic though.Or realistically they should not have a mechanic in place to damage tanks a lot more and fail by having 2 tanks completely immune to the mechanic.

Talathion

07-15-2011, 12:22 PM

Most DoV Raid mobs have a 10-25% Strikethrough Chance.

Dorieon

07-16-2011, 12:21 AM

<cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Dorieon@Guk wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote>They should make a mechanic on mobs that is a % chance of ignoring all mitigation.And than they should make all Plate tanks immune to it when in defensive stance.Woot <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/97ada74b88049a6d50a6ed40898a03d7.gif" border="0" /></blockquote>I agree, and when they do that they should also make mobs with 100% strikethrough and make them crit double attack any tank not a brawler trying to tank them.Oh and all trash should have 100% strikethrough.Woot <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/97ada74b88049a6d50a6ed40898a03d7.gif" border="0" /></blockquote>Well I do believe they have had some mobs that can buff up to 100% strikethru.....still waiting for the mit ignore mechanic though.Or realistically they should not have a mechanic in place to damage tanks a lot more and fail by having 2 tanks completely immune to the mechanic.</blockquote>I know what you meant and I was being intentionally dense.My guard can spec/adorn really high strikethrough avoidance and he has no issues with strikethrough even though he can't reach my numbers.I can spec alot of points and adorns into mit but I will never reach a guard's numbers (or most plate tanks if they went defensive).It seems even. But I agree it isn't.Give plate tanks 25% strikethrough avoidance and lets put this discussion to sleep.

Talathion

07-16-2011, 12:33 AM

<cite>Dorieon@Guk wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Dorieon@Guk wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote>They should make a mechanic on mobs that is a % chance of ignoring all mitigation.And than they should make all Plate tanks immune to it when in defensive stance.Woot <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/97ada74b88049a6d50a6ed40898a03d7.gif" border="0" /></blockquote>I agree, and when they do that they should also make mobs with 100% strikethrough and make them crit double attack any tank not a brawler trying to tank them.Oh and all trash should have 100% strikethrough.Woot <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/97ada74b88049a6d50a6ed40898a03d7.gif" border="0" /></blockquote>Well I do believe they have had some mobs that can buff up to 100% strikethru.....still waiting for the mit ignore mechanic though.Or realistically they should not have a mechanic in place to damage tanks a lot more and fail by having 2 tanks completely immune to the mechanic.</blockquote>I know what you meant and I was being intentionally dense.My guard can spec/adorn really high strikethrough avoidance and he has no issues with strikethrough even though he can't reach my numbers.I can spec alot of points and adorns into mit but I will never reach a guard's numbers (or most plate tanks if they went defensive).It seems even. But I agree it isn't.Give plate tanks 25% strikethrough avoidance and lets put this discussion to sleep.</blockquote>The only "strikethrough avoidance" is strikethrough immunity they're is nothing else.The Problem is Monks/Bruisers are getting AS MUCH or More MITIGATION...I am suggesting something drastic, like redoing ALL mitigation. (to be honest, they're should be no cap, and mitigation should be solid DR by number with no diminishing returns).1000 Mitigation = 10% Damage Reduction. - Non-Raid Clothies2000 Mitigation = 20% Damage Reduction. - Raiding Clothies3000 Mitigation = 30% Damage Reduction. - Wardens/Furys4000 Mitigation = 40% Damage Reduction. - This is where non-raid brawlers should be. (and beastlords)5000 Mitigation = 50% Damage Reduction. - This is where raid brawlers should be, and Dirges.6000 Mitigation = 60% Damage Reduction. - Defilers/Mystics/Scouts7000 Mitigation = 70% Damage Reduction. - Templars/Inquisitors7500 Mitigation = 75% Damage Reduction. - This is Where Paladins/Shadowknights should be.8000 Mitigation = 80% Damage Reduction - This is Where Warriors Should be. - And the Best Crusaders.8500 Mitigation = 85% Damage Reduction - Only the Best Warriors can Achieve this.9000 Mitigation = 90% Damage Reduction - Capped.66-70% Mitigation = where brawlers/plate tanks are now. (this is just wrong...)

Dorieon

07-17-2011, 04:47 AM

<cite>Talathion@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>The only "strikethrough avoidance" is strikethrough immunity they're is nothing else.The Problem is Monks/Bruisers are getting AS MUCH or More MITIGATION...</blockquote>Bah, you're right. I was drunk when I posted and mixed up my mechanics. Strikethrough/strikethrough immunity blah, blah.The point stands, give plates 25% strikethrough immunity in D stance. And I do not have more mit than my plate tanks when we are both defensive.

circusgirl

07-17-2011, 10:21 AM

Well, I have slightly more mit when I'm in defensive than our crusaders, but I can tell you exactly why:<ul><li>I am tanking in defensive, he is working in offensive</li><li>I am wearing the cloak from wing 2 UFD which carries +1200 mitigation, while he is wearing this expansion's cloak</li><li>I am using the +2.5 mitigation/+2 crit mit adornments, he is using +7 double attack adorns</li><li>I have a few more pieces of gear than him</li><li>I have taken every defensive AA possible, he is in a more balanced spec</li><li>I am in a group with an assassin, two healers, and a dirge, all of whom have mit buffs, while he is in a group with one healer and a troub running offensive songs.</li></ul><div>The thing you'll notice about that list is that every single thing on there is something a plate tank could do. They can use last expansion's mit gear, use a defensive spec and stance, put on defensive adornments, and be in a group specifically tailored to up their mitigation, or have built up more dkp over time. There are circumstances in which brawlers can reach plate-like mitigation, but for those brawlers who do it it's because of a lot of very disparate factors which all add up. And don't forget that the avoidance gap between plate tanks and brawlers can be erased just as easily by having a brawler in defensive put his avoidance lend on the tank and a cleric with shield ally doing the same. </div>

Talathion

07-17-2011, 11:43 AM

<cite>Vinka@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>Well, I have slightly more mit when I'm in defensive than our crusaders, but I can tell you exactly why:<ul><li>I am tanking in defensive, he is working in offensive</li><li>I am wearing the cloak from wing 2 UFD which carries +1200 mitigation, while he is wearing this expansion's cloak</li><li>I am using the +2.5 mitigation/+2 crit mit adornments, he is using +7 double attack adorns</li><li>I have a few more pieces of gear than him</li><li>I have taken every defensive AA possible, he is in a more balanced spec</li><li>I am in a group with an assassin, two healers, and a dirge, all of whom have mit buffs, while he is in a group with one healer and a troub running offensive songs.</li></ul><div>The thing you'll notice about that list is that every single thing on there is something a plate tank could do. They can use last expansion's mit gear, use a defensive spec and stance, put on defensive adornments, and be in a group specifically tailored to up their mitigation, or have built up more dkp over time. There are circumstances in which brawlers can reach plate-like mitigation, but for those brawlers who do it it's because of a lot of very disparate factors which all add up. And don't forget that the avoidance gap between plate tanks and brawlers can be erased just as easily by having a brawler in defensive put his avoidance lend on the tank and a cleric with shield ally doing the same. </div></blockquote>Theres adornments with 2.5% Uncontested Parry/Riposte I can put on all my armor? Tell Me where so I can get up to 85% Avoidance, since getting +2.5 mitigation is worthless for a plate tank because of diminishing returns. (it helps you alot, but it helps me so little that it would be better to do something else, I don't really know why you wasted your adorns on this since you probably already hit diminishing returns curve, would be better to get Double Attack or Critical Mitigation).You think with 300 AA I couldn't spec all defensively either? its just impossible not to think I've done all this before making this post, the fact stands that brawlers have more mitigation... look at there heroic aa... whenever they get hit they can pretty much make double attacks/flurrys on them 30% less damage, and they DO NOT get hit very often, but when they DO get hit its WAY less then a plate tank is. Remember along time ago when you said avoidance tanks wanted to avoid more because we had such a high mitigation advantage? YEAH, we did have almost 15-20% more damage reduction and it WAS fair to ask that, but guess what? This world works both ways, not one way.... Why do you have the best damage reduction abilitys in the game, the highest mitigation, and the highest avoidance? (You do not even have to use a shield...)The problem magnifies when you have a bruiser who has all of this and stacks riposte chance, a bruiser has a 25% (even more with a dirge/mystic) chance to stoneskin when they riposte! And they are riposting 50% of all attacks, so even when they do get hit, its either reduced by 30% damage, OR stoneskinned permamently.

Corydonn

07-17-2011, 02:09 PM

<cite>Talathion@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>Theres adornments with 2.5% Uncontested Parry/Riposte I can put on all my armor? Tell Me where so I can get up to 85% Avoidance, since getting +2.5 mitigation is worthless for a plate tank because of diminishing returns. (it helps you alot, but it helps me so little that it would be better to do something else, I don't really know why you wasted your adorns on this since you probably already hit diminishing returns curve, would be better to get Double Attack or Critical Mitigation).You think with 300 AA I couldn't spec all defensively either? its just impossible not to think I've done all this before making this post, the fact stands that brawlers have more mitigation... look at there heroic aa... whenever they get hit they can pretty much make double attacks/flurrys on them 30% less damage, and they DO NOT get hit very often, but when they DO get hit its WAY less then a plate tank is. Remember along time ago when you said avoidance tanks wanted to avoid more because we had such a high mitigation advantage? YEAH, we did have almost 15-20% more damage reduction and it WAS fair to ask that, but guess what? This world works both ways, not one way.... Why do you have the best damage reduction abilitys in the game, the highest mitigation, and the highest avoidance? (You do not even have to use a shield...)The problem magnifies when you have a bruiser who has all of this and stacks riposte chance, a bruiser has a 25% (even more with a dirge/mystic) chance to stoneskin when they riposte! And they are riposting 50% of all attacks, so even when they do get hit, its either reduced by 30% damage, OR stoneskinned permamently.</blockquote>1. If you think Mitigation Increase is better on a brawler than a plate tank, Learn the mechanics. It was nerfed awhile back and you need more mitigation with higher level mobs.2. I didn't know I could get 50% Riposte Chance, It'd be awesome if I could though... But... Plate tanks get this same riposte chance on gear since all the gear is the same now.3. Yes Brawlers are overpowered but your arguements are useless if you don't even know the mechanics behind why they are overpowered.

ChrissyFaey

07-17-2011, 02:29 PM

For the sake of this game I pray that no one ever listens to Talathion's ideas.Berserkers hold their own in content quite well at the moment - and they have more mitigation than brawlers. PQ gear doesn't count.

Bruener

07-17-2011, 03:10 PM

<cite>Corydonn wrote:</cite><blockquote>3. Yes Brawlers are overpowered but your arguements are useless if you don't even know the mechanics behind why they are overpowered.</blockquote>Brawlers take note of this one. It would be wise to start think of your own balancing ideas instead of letting SOE drop the hammer on you.The classes weren't designed with the intent to get hit way less often taken even less damage when hit while still being able to parse as much if not more than any other Fighter, basically rewind them back to SF.

Corydonn

07-17-2011, 03:19 PM

<cite>ChrissyFaey wrote:</cite><blockquote>Berserkers hold their own in content quite well at the moment - and they have more mitigation than brawlers. PQ gear doesn't count.</blockquote>The only tank that might need some buffing is SKs, Zerkers are fine if not overpowered as well.

circusgirl

07-17-2011, 06:46 PM

<cite>Talathion@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Vinka@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>Well, I have slightly more mit when I'm in defensive than our crusaders, but I can tell you exactly why:<ul><li>I am tanking in defensive, he is working in offensive</li><li>I am wearing the cloak from wing 2 UFD which carries +1200 mitigation, while he is wearing this expansion's cloak</li><li>I am using the +2.5 mitigation/+2 crit mit adornments, he is using +7 double attack adorns</li><li>I have a few more pieces of gear than him</li><li>I have taken every defensive AA possible, he is in a more balanced spec</li><li>I am in a group with an assassin, two healers, and a dirge, all of whom have mit buffs, while he is in a group with one healer and a troub running offensive songs.</li></ul><div>The thing you'll notice about that list is that every single thing on there is something a plate tank could do. They can use last expansion's mit gear, use a defensive spec and stance, put on defensive adornments, and be in a group specifically tailored to up their mitigation, or have built up more dkp over time. There are circumstances in which brawlers can reach plate-like mitigation, but for those brawlers who do it it's because of a lot of very disparate factors which all add up. And don't forget that the avoidance gap between plate tanks and brawlers can be erased just as easily by having a brawler in defensive put his avoidance lend on the tank and a cleric with shield ally doing the same. </div></blockquote>Theres adornments with 2.5% Uncontested Parry/Riposte I can put on all my armor? Tell Me where so I can get up to 85% Avoidance, since getting +2.5 mitigation is worthless for a plate tank because of diminishing returns. (it helps you alot, but it helps me so little that it would be better to do something else, I don't really know why you wasted your adorns on this since you probably already hit diminishing returns curve, would be better to get Double Attack or Critical Mitigation).You think with 300 AA I couldn't spec all defensively either? its just impossible not to think I've done all this before making this post, the fact stands that brawlers have more mitigation... look at there heroic aa... whenever they get hit they can pretty much make double attacks/flurrys on them 30% less damage, and they DO NOT get hit very often, but when they DO get hit its WAY less then a plate tank is. Remember along time ago when you said avoidance tanks wanted to avoid more because we had such a high mitigation advantage? YEAH, we did have almost 15-20% more damage reduction and it WAS fair to ask that, but guess what? This world works both ways, not one way.... Why do you have the best damage reduction abilitys in the game, the highest mitigation, and the highest avoidance? (You do not even have to use a shield...)The problem magnifies when you have a bruiser who has all of this and stacks riposte chance, a bruiser has a 25% (even more with a dirge/mystic) chance to stoneskin when they riposte! And they are riposting 50% of all attacks, so even when they do get hit, its either reduced by 30% damage, OR stoneskinned permamently.</blockquote>There's food and drink with 2.5% parry on them, which adds more to your avoidance than it does to mine, due to the way in which avoidance checks are ordered. The adornments with actual mitigation on them can only go in two slots, not on all seven, so that argument really doesn't hold water. Your argument about not having to use a shield is pretty weightless as well; I don't have to use a shield, but I do have to go defensive. You don't have to go defensive, but you do have to use a shield. The damage reduction ability you're refering to lasts for 3 seconds and has a 10 second downtime.

Talathion

07-17-2011, 07:25 PM

<cite>Vinka@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Talathion@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Vinka@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>Well, I have slightly more mit when I'm in defensive than our crusaders, but I can tell you exactly why:<ul><li>I am tanking in defensive, he is working in offensive</li><li>I am wearing the cloak from wing 2 UFD which carries +1200 mitigation, while he is wearing this expansion's cloak</li><li>I am using the +2.5 mitigation/+2 crit mit adornments, he is using +7 double attack adorns</li><li>I have a few more pieces of gear than him</li><li>I have taken every defensive AA possible, he is in a more balanced spec</li><li>I am in a group with an assassin, two healers, and a dirge, all of whom have mit buffs, while he is in a group with one healer and a troub running offensive songs.</li></ul><div>The thing you'll notice about that list is that every single thing on there is something a plate tank could do. They can use last expansion's mit gear, use a defensive spec and stance, put on defensive adornments, and be in a group specifically tailored to up their mitigation, or have built up more dkp over time. There are circumstances in which brawlers can reach plate-like mitigation, but for those brawlers who do it it's because of a lot of very disparate factors which all add up. And don't forget that the avoidance gap between plate tanks and brawlers can be erased just as easily by having a brawler in defensive put his avoidance lend on the tank and a cleric with shield ally doing the same. </div></blockquote>Theres adornments with 2.5% Uncontested Parry/Riposte I can put on all my armor? Tell Me where so I can get up to 85% Avoidance, since getting +2.5 mitigation is worthless for a plate tank because of diminishing returns. (it helps you alot, but it helps me so little that it would be better to do something else, I don't really know why you wasted your adorns on this since you probably already hit diminishing returns curve, would be better to get Double Attack or Critical Mitigation).You think with 300 AA I couldn't spec all defensively either? its just impossible not to think I've done all this before making this post, the fact stands that brawlers have more mitigation... look at there heroic aa... whenever they get hit they can pretty much make double attacks/flurrys on them 30% less damage, and they DO NOT get hit very often, but when they DO get hit its WAY less then a plate tank is. Remember along time ago when you said avoidance tanks wanted to avoid more because we had such a high mitigation advantage? YEAH, we did have almost 15-20% more damage reduction and it WAS fair to ask that, but guess what? This world works both ways, not one way.... Why do you have the best damage reduction abilitys in the game, the highest mitigation, and the highest avoidance? (You do not even have to use a shield...)The problem magnifies when you have a bruiser who has all of this and stacks riposte chance, a bruiser has a 25% (even more with a dirge/mystic) chance to stoneskin when they riposte! And they are riposting 50% of all attacks, so even when they do get hit, its either reduced by 30% damage, OR stoneskinned permamently.</blockquote>There's food and drink with 2.5% parry on them, which adds more to your avoidance than it does to mine, due to the way in which avoidance checks are ordered. The adornments with actual mitigation on them can only go in two slots, not on all seven, so that argument really doesn't hold water. Your argument about not having to use a shield is pretty weightless as well; I don't have to use a shield, but I do have to go defensive. You don't have to go defensive, but you do have to use a shield. The damage reduction ability you're refering to lasts for 3 seconds and has a 10 second downtime.</blockquote>I'm pretty sure uncontested is uncontested nomatter what class you are, even if you have a 50% Chance to block and a 50% Chance to parry, it will check both and if you fail both you will still get hit, so no, it DOES add that much avoidance.The Damage Reduction Ability ONLY happens when you need it, in a raid when your fighting a named, nameds attack REALLY slow and really hard this expansion, when a named hits you, its reduced, the second one is parryed usually, then by the time he swings again its up again.Do you even understand how Overpowered your class is right now? Its worse then shadowknight's in TSO.Destiny of Monks.

Corydonn

07-17-2011, 08:37 PM

<cite>Talathion@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>The Damage Reduction Ability ONLY happens when you need it, in a raid when your fighting a named, nameds attack REALLY slow and really hard this expansion, when a named hits you, its reduced, the second one is parryed usually, then by the time he swings again its up again.</blockquote>Again, Stop talking like you actually play the game. If you actually ran the x2 yourself instead of buying the updates. You would know that raid mobs attack FAST in DoV and Tsserina especially fast for being an x2 mob. The x4 mobs auto so fast it's almost necessary to keep it fully slowed or any tank will spike out.

circusgirl

07-17-2011, 09:55 PM

If you have 0% block and you put on 5% parry food, you gain 5% avoidance.If you have 50% block and you put on 5% parry food, you gain 2.5% avoidance.Avoidance is gained on a curve too.

Talathion

07-18-2011, 12:47 AM

<cite>Corydonn wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Talathion@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>The Damage Reduction Ability ONLY happens when you need it, in a raid when your fighting a named, nameds attack REALLY slow and really hard this expansion, when a named hits you, its reduced, the second one is parryed usually, then by the time he swings again its up again.</blockquote>Again, Stop talking like you actually play the game. If you actually ran the x2 yourself instead of buying the updates. You would know that raid mobs attack FAST in DoV and Tsserina especially fast for being an x2 mob. The x4 mobs auto so fast it's almost necessary to keep it fully slowed or any tank will spike out.</blockquote>Because buying your updates means you don't know how to play the game? Obviously.

Corydonn

07-18-2011, 01:00 AM

<cite>Talathion@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>Because buying your updates means you don't know how to play the game? Obviously.</blockquote>Obviously if you don't know the mechanics behind the mobs and aren't killing stuff every day to know. Yes, Yes it does.

Talathion

07-18-2011, 01:03 AM

<cite>Corydonn wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Talathion@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>Because buying your updates means you don't know how to play the game? Obviously.</blockquote>Obviously if you don't know the mechanics behind the mobs and aren't killing stuff every day to know. Yes, Yes it does.</blockquote>I'm pretty sure im swimming and your on the boat of truthfullness sailing across the sea of wrong.

BChizzle

07-18-2011, 09:32 AM

Brawlers don't get as much mit as an equally geared and AA'd plate tank. Plate tanks get as much avoidance as an equally geared and AA'd brawler. Strikethrough helps to balance those two together, but obviously Strikethrough levels need to be balanced as not to weigh things to heavely towards a brawler, but that is a mob issue not a class issue.Fact is plate tanks don't need to gear and AA towards mit as much as brawlers do, since instead they spec for more DPS then they come here and cry about it. No brawler is tanking anything hard in offensive stance meanwhile every plate tank is tanking things in offensive.Anyways this is hardly comparable to the zerker/sk overpowered issues in the past and if anything tanks are balanced better than they have ever been.

Bruener

07-18-2011, 03:16 PM

<cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite><blockquote>Brawlers don't get as much mit as an equally geared and AA'd plate tank. Plate tanks get as much avoidance as an equally geared and AA'd brawler. Strikethrough helps to balance those two together, but obviously Strikethrough levels need to be balanced as not to weigh things to heavely towards a brawler, but that is a mob issue not a class issue.Fact is plate tanks don't need to gear and AA towards mit as much as brawlers do, since instead they spec for more DPS then they come here and cry about it. No brawler is tanking anything hard in offensive stance meanwhile every plate tank is tanking things in offensive.Anyways this is hardly comparable to the zerker/sk overpowered issues in the past and if anything tanks are balanced better than they have ever been.</blockquote>I think you might be a little out of touch with how things really are.Yes, as stated Brawlers have slightly less mitigation that Plate tanks. Notice the word slightly because really it is very small now. However Brawlers have much more damage reduction.....basically 30% damage reduction on every single Multi-Attack from a mob or if they just happen to have a bad roll and get a couple close attacks incoming.As far as avoidance, the spread on avoidance is a lot further than the spread on Mitigation. The only time it is close is if the Plate tanks is actually using the much superior lend of a Brawler because their avoidance is higher. Couple simple reasons why there is a gap...1st for some reason Brawlers get to turn some of their contested avoidance into uncontested avoidance in defensive. It means that those +parry stats that are worthless on other tanks are actually worth something. Now, I am not sure if it is Bruiser specific but also being able to throw up a stoneskin 25% of the time they riposte means that they get a lot more stoneskins as well, which is nothing more than another form of avoidance.Start talking about strike thru and the fact that it creates that much more of a gap since for some reason they made 2 tanks comlpetely immune to the mechanic. They could remove this mechanic and the avoidance gap would be where it would need to be, throw in the mechanic and it just gets stupid. Probably the worst design of the mechanic that should have been fixed when it started getting over-used is the fact that it makes certain abilities that other tanks have too much of a luck ability. Abilities like Dragoons, Furor, Stonewall that were designed and balanced for avoiding all melee attacks for a short duration. As a SK Furor has become completely undependable and when some mobs are beating on me when stuff hits the fan more times than not it simply leads to a death.I will still stand by my statement that SF saw the best balance of tanks post-Guard changes, excepting probably Adrenaline being too fast on the reuse. Perception was what caused the mess we have in DoV. Brawlers although extremely powerful in SF had the bad perception still (funny since some people still see things bad for Brawlers in DoV) while on the other side Crusaders had an extremely good perception coming out of TSO. Brawlers got even more luving, Crusaders got jack based on this perception and now it is basically a TSO with things flopped Brawlers and Crusaders while Warriors are riding out the middle. Hopefully the new AA tree adjustments break this trend, otherwise come next xpac time I am sure we are going to see a lot of changes mechanically between them.

BChizzle

07-18-2011, 03:46 PM

<cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite><blockquote>Brawlers don't get as much mit as an equally geared and AA'd plate tank. Plate tanks get as much avoidance as an equally geared and AA'd brawler. Strikethrough helps to balance those two together, but obviously Strikethrough levels need to be balanced as not to weigh things to heavely towards a brawler, but that is a mob issue not a class issue.Fact is plate tanks don't need to gear and AA towards mit as much as brawlers do, since instead they spec for more DPS then they come here and cry about it. No brawler is tanking anything hard in offensive stance meanwhile every plate tank is tanking things in offensive.Anyways this is hardly comparable to the zerker/sk overpowered issues in the past and if anything tanks are balanced better than they have ever been.</blockquote>I think you might be a little out of touch with how things really are.Yes, as stated Brawlers have slightly less mitigation that Plate tanks. Notice the word slightly because really it is very small now. However Brawlers have much more damage reduction.....basically 30% damage reduction on every single Multi-Attack from a mob or if they just happen to have a bad roll and get a couple close attacks incoming.As far as avoidance, the spread on avoidance is a lot further than the spread on Mitigation. The only time it is close is if the Plate tanks is actually using the much superior lend of a Brawler because their avoidance is higher. Couple simple reasons why there is a gap...1st for some reason Brawlers get to turn some of their contested avoidance into uncontested avoidance in defensive. It means that those +parry stats that are worthless on other tanks are actually worth something. Now, I am not sure if it is Bruiser specific but also being able to throw up a stoneskin 25% of the time they riposte means that they get a lot more stoneskins as well, which is nothing more than another form of avoidance.Start talking about strike thru and the fact that it creates that much more of a gap since for some reason they made 2 tanks comlpetely immune to the mechanic. They could remove this mechanic and the avoidance gap would be where it would need to be, throw in the mechanic and it just gets stupid. Probably the worst design of the mechanic that should have been fixed when it started getting over-used is the fact that it makes certain abilities that other tanks have too much of a luck ability. Abilities like Dragoons, Furor, Stonewall that were designed and balanced for avoiding all melee attacks for a short duration. As a SK Furor has become completely undependable and when some mobs are beating on me when stuff hits the fan more times than not it simply leads to a death.I will still stand by my statement that SF saw the best balance of tanks post-Guard changes, excepting probably Adrenaline being too fast on the reuse. Perception was what caused the mess we have in DoV. Brawlers although extremely powerful in SF had the bad perception still (funny since some people still see things bad for Brawlers in DoV) while on the other side Crusaders had an extremely good perception coming out of TSO. Brawlers got even more luving, Crusaders got jack based on this perception and now it is basically a TSO with things flopped Brawlers and Crusaders while Warriors are riding out the middle. Hopefully the new AA tree adjustments break this trend, otherwise come next xpac time I am sure we are going to see a lot of changes mechanically between them.</blockquote>So let me get this straight, all last year you were claiming crusaders weren't top of the tanking food chain, but now you are admitting that they were and are now claiming yet again that they aren't? Why should your opinion even matter when you have clearly exposed yourself as a liar?All you do all day is ignore things like the fact that it takes 10 aa points to get that damage reduction, the fact that after it procs it won't proc again for 10 seconds. Meanwhile you can spend your 10 aa's in things that increase your dps all the while tanking in offensive stance with an always on deathsave.

Silzin

07-18-2011, 03:58 PM

Bruener they need to make all temp abilities that are designed to avoid hits make the recipient immune to Strikethrough for the duration of the ability. This mixed with being a bit more conservative with large amounts of Strikethrough on mobs with probably fix the problems that people are seeing.

Buzzing

07-18-2011, 04:19 PM

<cite>Talathion@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Buzzing@Butcherblock wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Talathion@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Silzin@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote>Bruener its 30%, and its up for 3 sec's out of every 30 sec's (10 seconds, not 30, I look at every other tanks skills!). So 10% of the time, ya it helps us not randomly get 1 shotted any more and is needed.</blockquote>Um.. you dodge and parry and block so much its more like this"its up every time its needed"</blockquote>Wait hold on... I wan't to see tears!! If your dieing to much do something else...</blockquote>says the person playing a brawler, probably, since you can't die.</blockquote>bloody hell, I am gone for the weekend and I am called a Brawler... Figures

Bruener

07-18-2011, 06:06 PM

<cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote>I think you might be a little out of touch with how things really are.Yes, as stated Brawlers have slightly less mitigation that Plate tanks. Notice the word slightly because really it is very small now. However Brawlers have much more damage reduction.....basically 30% damage reduction on every single Multi-Attack from a mob or if they just happen to have a bad roll and get a couple close attacks incoming.As far as avoidance, the spread on avoidance is a lot further than the spread on Mitigation. The only time it is close is if the Plate tanks is actually using the much superior lend of a Brawler because their avoidance is higher. Couple simple reasons why there is a gap...1st for some reason Brawlers get to turn some of their contested avoidance into uncontested avoidance in defensive. It means that those +parry stats that are worthless on other tanks are actually worth something. Now, I am not sure if it is Bruiser specific but also being able to throw up a stoneskin 25% of the time they riposte means that they get a lot more stoneskins as well, which is nothing more than another form of avoidance.Start talking about strike thru and the fact that it creates that much more of a gap since for some reason they made 2 tanks comlpetely immune to the mechanic. They could remove this mechanic and the avoidance gap would be where it would need to be, throw in the mechanic and it just gets stupid. Probably the worst design of the mechanic that should have been fixed when it started getting over-used is the fact that it makes certain abilities that other tanks have too much of a luck ability. Abilities like Dragoons, Furor, Stonewall that were designed and balanced for avoiding all melee attacks for a short duration. As a SK Furor has become completely undependable and when some mobs are beating on me when stuff hits the fan more times than not it simply leads to a death.I will still stand by my statement that SF saw the best balance of tanks post-Guard changes, excepting probably Adrenaline being too fast on the reuse. Perception was what caused the mess we have in DoV. Brawlers although extremely powerful in SF had the bad perception still (funny since some people still see things bad for Brawlers in DoV) while on the other side Crusaders had an extremely good perception coming out of TSO. Brawlers got even more luving, Crusaders got jack based on this perception and now it is basically a TSO with things flopped Brawlers and Crusaders while Warriors are riding out the middle. Hopefully the new AA tree adjustments break this trend, otherwise come next xpac time I am sure we are going to see a lot of changes mechanically between them.</blockquote>So let me get this straight, all last year you were claiming crusaders weren't top of the tanking food chain, but now you are admitting that they were and are now claiming yet again that they aren't? Why should your opinion even matter when you have clearly exposed yourself as a liar?All you do all day is ignore things like the fact that it takes 10 aa points to get that damage reduction, the fact that after it procs it won't proc again for 10 seconds. Meanwhile you can spend your 10 aa's in things that increase your dps all the while tanking in offensive stance with an always on deathsave.</blockquote>Please show me where I said that Crusaders were the top of the food chain in the above post. If you reread you would probably notice that I said TSO. In SF Crusaders were not given as much as other tanks for abilities and it was actually balanced. DoV is the expansion that flipped it on its head. Good try.I know that it takes 10 AA. 10 AA for a guaranteed 30% damage reduction following any hit to be applied to any Multi Attack or the very small chance as a Brawler that you would actually get back to back hits on a bad roll is an extremely good spend of AAs. Please don't even try to compare the AAs you have received this xpac to the AAs Crusaders have received. Every single endline as a Crusader is junk in the Heroic tree and the best thing we get in the line before is adding a few seconds to an ability that doesn't end up healing much at all in raids. And please save it that you don't spend your AAs in offensive abilities. I have seen your trees and SOE has made it extremely easy for you to spec for everything worth while Defensive and Offensive easily. Furthermore you make it sound like it is such a detriment for you to go into Defensive stance. The fact is a Brawler can actually get more DPS out of their Defensive stance while still keeping all their uncontested avoidance, parsing as high as any other Fighter if not higher, and DW'ing while they do it.It has become common knowledge that Brawlers are OP'd atm because they are top Offensive tank while being top Defensive tank as well...not sacrificing at all for either. Stances have no meaning at all any more offensively is the problem and their mass amount of survivability trick abilities are on way too short of reuse. I am still an advocate for removing stances so that makes the stance issue a wash....and to fix things without dropping a hammer on Brawlers would probably take increasing their reuses by 50% at least.Its so great that you bring up the "always on deathsave" as well. Considering that you have a Death Save that has 1 more trigger and has more than a long enough duration to be up until another one of your fast recast abilities is up and yours can be cast in-combat every few minutes and can be used even if your group members are dead you have no room to talk at all. 3 Triggers was way way too much for SKs that have less survivability abilities already....but for some reason its ok for Brawlers that have more abilities to use more often than any other tank?

circusgirl

07-18-2011, 06:15 PM

It isn't a 30% guaranteed damage reduction. It's 30% off the second hit of a double attack once every 10 seconds. Big difference.

BChizzle

07-18-2011, 06:34 PM

<cite>Vinka@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>It isn't a 30% guaranteed damage reduction. It's 30% off the second hit of a double attack once every 10 seconds. Big difference.</blockquote>Its a huge difference and he will never acknowledge the fact that we still get hit more in those remaining 7 seconds plus the first hit isn't reduced. He will also never acknowlegde the fact that the stuff that kills tanks usually isn't auto attacks but instead huge combat arts and spells things that his own class is much more effective at taking on.Its basically Duele's thing, cry about all other tanks having some usefulness while not acknowledging his own tanks strengths. He wants SK's to go back to being the best at absolutely everything.

Corydonn

07-18-2011, 06:40 PM

<cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite><blockquote>Its a huge difference and he will never acknowledge the fact that we still get hit more in those remaining 7 seconds plus the first hit isn't reduced. He will also never acknowlegde the fact that the stuff that kills tanks usually isn't auto attacks but instead huge combat arts and spells things that his own class is much more effective at taking on.Its basically Duele's thing, cry about all other tanks having some usefulness while not acknowledging his own tanks strengths. He wants SK's to go back to being the best at absolutely everything.</blockquote>Brawlers get to block those huge CAs and Spells and things and SKs have had their ability to reduce those hits nerfed on reuse... Jus Sayin.

BChizzle

07-18-2011, 06:52 PM

<cite>Corydonn wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite><blockquote>Its a huge difference and he will never acknowledge the fact that we still get hit more in those remaining 7 seconds plus the first hit isn't reduced. He will also never acknowlegde the fact that the stuff that kills tanks usually isn't auto attacks but instead huge combat arts and spells things that his own class is much more effective at taking on.Its basically Duele's thing, cry about all other tanks having some usefulness while not acknowledging his own tanks strengths. He wants SK's to go back to being the best at absolutely everything.</blockquote>BRUISERS get to block those huge CAs and Spells and things and SKs have had their ability to reduce those hits nerfed on reuse... Jus Sayin.</blockquote>Fixed it for you

Corydonn

07-18-2011, 06:59 PM

<cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Corydonn wrote:</cite><blockquote>BRUISERS get to block those huge CAs and Spells and things and SKs have had their ability to reduce those hits nerfed on reuse... Jus Sayin.</blockquote>Fixed it for you</blockquote>You're denying an awful lot to the uber monk survivability. Superior Guard + Outward Calm > Stone Deaf and Inner Focus is the same. Provoking stance is like a bolster/DG which is a round of death saves on AEs upon itself.

BChizzle

07-18-2011, 08:13 PM

<cite>Corydonn wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Corydonn wrote:</cite><blockquote>BRUISERS get to block those huge CAs and Spells and things and SKs have had their ability to reduce those hits nerfed on reuse... Jus Sayin.</blockquote>Fixed it for you</blockquote>You're denying an awful lot to the uber monk survivability. Superior Guard + Outward Calm > Stone Deaf and Inner Focus is the same. Provoking stance is like a bolster/DG which is a round of death saves on AEs upon itself.</blockquote>Superior guard can get eaten by an auto and rendered useless against a spell or ca, outward calm is just a magic ward which does nothing on a CA. But the point is every tank has abilities that are good. I'll take 5% better incoming heals 100% of the time thanks, and Ill take a always on multiple count deathsave too, and Ill take group immunity with damage reduction too while you are at it thanks.

Talathion

07-18-2011, 08:39 PM

Adrenaline sucks now, not even damage reduction anymore...(which sucks because our biggest problem is spike damage since berserkers don't have the health that ALL OTHER TANKS IN THE GAME get.).25% DR is way better then 5% better heals, especially when you group with a shaman...

Bruener

07-18-2011, 08:53 PM

<cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Corydonn wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Corydonn wrote:</cite><blockquote>BRUISERS get to block those huge CAs and Spells and things and SKs have had their ability to reduce those hits nerfed on reuse... Jus Sayin.</blockquote>Fixed it for you</blockquote>You're denying an awful lot to the uber monk survivability. Superior Guard + Outward Calm > Stone Deaf and Inner Focus is the same. Provoking stance is like a bolster/DG which is a round of death saves on AEs upon itself.</blockquote>Superior guard can get eaten by an auto and rendered useless against a spell or ca, outward calm is just a magic ward which does nothing on a CA. But the point is every tank has abilities that are good. I'll take 5% better incoming heals 100% of the time thanks, and Ill take a always on multiple count deathsave too, and Ill take group immunity with damage reduction too while you are at it thanks.</blockquote>I bet you would because you enjoy being completely OP'd and will stack up as much as you can while trying to underplay the class completely hoping that you just keep getting more and more.Either that or you really are oblivious to how powerful your own class is.How about you answer this question for me....how many MAs do you get hit by if you avoid an auto attack? Also, how may MA's and procs do you get off of a successful hit with strikethru versus if you miss the attack?I mean I am sure we can make a list of how much stuff really needs to be changed if you want....but I am sure the Devs already have such a list going.

BChizzle

07-18-2011, 09:22 PM

<cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote>I bet you would because you enjoy being completely OP'd and will stack up as much as you can while trying to underplay the class completely hoping that you just keep getting more and more.</blockquote>This sounds alot like what this whole forum has been accusing you of doing for years. Don't try and turn things around Duele we can see through your ruse, you arent bright enough to make it work.Again, SK are the highest parsing tank, SK's have the best deathsave, SK's have a crazy reflect temp, SK's can heal like nobodys business, SK's get healed for 5% more 100% of the time, SK's offer insane group utility more than any other tank.Just settle into your role of utility tank and enjoy. There is nothing wrong with each tank having their niche.

Corydonn

07-18-2011, 09:36 PM

<cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite><blockquote>Superior guard can get eaten by an auto and rendered useless against a spell or ca, outward calm is just a magic ward which does nothing on a CA. </blockquote>With Co-op strike on everything, You aren't tanking more than one thing and mobs don't auto while casting.... Also Stone Deaf is just magic damage, Which does nothing on a CA.Hmm... It's probably just the content that makes Monks and Bruisers OP tanks. If I'm tanking swarms of mobs I'm either not holding aggro or I'm dying. SKs on the other hand...

BChizzle

07-18-2011, 10:48 PM

<cite>Corydonn wrote:</cite><blockquote>Hmm... It's probably just the content that makes Monks and Bruisers OP tanks. If I'm tanking swarms of mobs I'm either not holding aggro or I'm dying. SKs on the other hand...</blockquote>Monks are great at single target, nobody has claimed otherwise, they don't hold a candle to SK's on multi-targets, bruisers are in the middle. Each tanks have their own strengths.

Bruener

07-18-2011, 11:07 PM

<cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote>I bet you would because you enjoy being completely OP'd and will stack up as much as you can while trying to underplay the class completely hoping that you just keep getting more and more.</blockquote>This sounds alot like what this whole forum has been accusing you of doing for years. Don't try and turn things around Duele we can see through your ruse, you arent bright enough to make it work.Again, SK are the highest parsing tank, SK's have the best deathsave, SK's have a crazy reflect temp, SK's can heal like nobodys business, SK's get healed for 5% more 100% of the time, SK's offer insane group utility more than any other tank.Just settle into your role of utility tank and enjoy. There is nothing wrong with each tank having their niche.</blockquote>Woot keep the mis-info coming.The difference between a Brawler parse and a SK parse is minimal at best. In fact due to a ridiculously high amount of strike-thru while tanking a Monk is easily the highest parsing tank. SKs deathsave is extremely weak when compared to other Fighter death saves, specifically Brawlers. Bloodletter cannot be cast in combat versus the other tanks death saves. It has 2 triggers, not 3 like the Brawler death save. It requires multiple people for it to proc since it drains the group of health, unlike other Fighters. On a 20 minute Vlad parse lets say how many times do you think a Brawler uses their Death Save and has it proc compared to the 1 time a SK can use theirs unless they are willing to die to recast it after the 3 min reuse is up?Reflect. Very few Crusaders spec for reflect. You are talking about sinking 24 AA in an almost worthless line to get the ability. The ability used to be a must have. Than SOE changed it to be completely unmodifiable. 24 AA for a 3 min static reuse ability that only does 40% damage reduction on 1 round of AEs (magic only damage) is not a good Defensive choice at all. And we all know how much the offensive of the ability went down when they made it so it can't crit or be modified by any other means.Odd that on a raid because of the multiple use of Death Saves a Brawler will be pretty close to my HPS. I average between 1200-1500 HPS in a raid while tanking. Its because the heals are extremely weak. 1/3 of that comes from the whopping 1.5k regen group ward that is peanuts when you compare that it is 1.5k ward for group while everybody is sitting 50-60k health and it used to be like 1k ward when everybody was 20k health.5% more heal. Make sure you throw in there for everybody that that does not include wards. The single best heal in the game that prevents actual spike damage it does not include. Made it a garbage spec. Change it to affect wards and than we can talk.Insane group utility? No more than any other tank LOL.Your class is grossly OP'd. You can't keep trying to deflect to SKs because they have become so underpowered because of people like you that it is becoming obvious. Just ask any healer that heals both

BChizzle

07-18-2011, 11:46 PM

So you don't use your defensive stuff ok lolz.

Silzin

07-19-2011, 12:05 AM

If yall spent half as much time trying to get your class abilities fixed instead of trying to get others nerfed then you would get a lot further. Most of this thread has turned into "WAWA Brawlers can finally really tank and a good one took my raid set.... they must be over powered".

BChizzle

07-19-2011, 12:09 AM

Basically he doesn't use his defensive abilities then complains his class can't tank.

Silzin

07-19-2011, 12:10 AM

<cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite><blockquote>Basically he doesn't use his defensive abilities then complains his class can't tank.</blockquote>that is about what i am getting from several in this thread... ya

Bruener

07-19-2011, 12:12 AM

<cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite><blockquote>So you don't use your defensive stuff ok lolz.</blockquote>Troll. Lolz.

BChizzle

07-19-2011, 12:35 AM

<cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite><blockquote>So you don't use your defensive stuff ok lolz.</blockquote>Troll. Lolz.</blockquote>You say you aren't defensive enough then say you don't use skills that make you more defensive, Everything you accuse brawlers being OP for we have to choose to take, we have to choose to be in DEFENSIVE STANCE to be immune to strike through, something you don't do, we have to choose DEFENSIVE aa's something you choose not to do. We have to choose DEFENSIVE adorns something you choose not to do. Basically you just don't know how to spec for tanking.

Bruener

07-19-2011, 12:37 AM

<cite>Silzin@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote>If yall spent half as much time trying to get your class abilities fixed instead of trying to get others nerfed then you would get a lot further. Most of this thread has turned into "WAWA Brawlers can finally really tank and a good one took my raid set.... they must be over powered".</blockquote>Yeah, been explaining how things were going to wind up from Beta. Its not like my job was any easier with a bunch of the same people here whining about how "bad" they had it and how "OP'd" SKs were when they were actually balanced.I mean how do you even expect them to add any type of ability at all to Brawlers when they can avoid and reduce so much damage so often right now? I mean what do you want them to just sit there and be invincible while their healers sit there and twiddle their thumbs?All I did was state the obvious on how things look right now. Believe me I have been working hard to get SKs the tweaks they need.

Bruener

07-19-2011, 12:38 AM

<cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite><blockquote>So you don't use your defensive stuff ok lolz.</blockquote>Troll. Lolz.</blockquote>You say you aren't defensive enough then say you don't use skills that make you more defensive, Everything you accuse brawlers being OP for we have to choose to take, we have to choose to be in DEFENSIVE STANCE to be immune to strike through, something you don't do, we have to choose DEFENSIVE aa's something you choose not to do. We have to choose DEFENSIVE adorns something you choose not to do. Basically you just don't know how to spec for tanking.</blockquote>There is a HUGE difference between abilities that actually work and are good compared to abilities that suck. Can't spell it out much more than that for you.

BChizzle

07-19-2011, 01:25 AM

<cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite><blockquote>So you don't use your defensive stuff ok lolz.</blockquote>Troll. Lolz.</blockquote>You say you aren't defensive enough then say you don't use skills that make you more defensive, Everything you accuse brawlers being OP for we have to choose to take, we have to choose to be in DEFENSIVE STANCE to be immune to strike through, something you don't do, we have to choose DEFENSIVE aa's something you choose not to do. We have to choose DEFENSIVE adorns something you choose not to do. Basically you just don't know how to spec for tanking.</blockquote>There is a HUGE difference between abilities that actually work and are good compared to abilities that suck. Can't spell it out much more than that for you.</blockquote>Your abilities work fine. You choose not to take them.

Talathion

07-19-2011, 01:47 AM

<cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite><blockquote>So you don't use your defensive stuff ok lolz.</blockquote>Troll. Lolz.</blockquote>You say you aren't defensive enough then say you don't use skills that make you more defensive, Everything you accuse brawlers being OP for we have to choose to take, we have to choose to be in DEFENSIVE STANCE to be immune to strike through, something you don't do, we have to choose DEFENSIVE aa's something you choose not to do. We have to choose DEFENSIVE adorns something you choose not to do. Basically you just don't know how to spec for tanking.</blockquote>There is a HUGE difference between abilities that actually work and are good compared to abilities that suck. Can't spell it out much more than that for you.</blockquote>Your abilities work fine. You choose not to take them.</blockquote>SK Defensive Stance Adds +200 Stamina and 5% Base Uncontested Avoidance and 15% Mitigation!Paladin Defensive Stance Adds +200 Stamina and 5% Base Uncontested Avoidance and 15% Mitigation!Bruiser Defensive Stance Adds +0 Stamina and +2.6% Base Avoidance and 25% Mitigation and 16% Uncontested Deflection Avoidance and Strikethrough Immunity!Monk Defensive Stance Adds +0 Stamina and +2.6% Base Avoidance and 25% Mitigation and 16% Uncontested Deflection Avoidance and Strikethrough Immunity!Guardian Defensive Stance Adds +0 Stamina and 2.4% Base Uncontested Avoidance and 15% Mitigation...Berserker Defensive Stance Adds +0 Stamina and +0% Base Uncontested Avoidance and 15% Mitigation... Defensive Stance for a berserker is useless, offensive stance adds a huge damage proc. (def stance for guardian is also pretty useless, they're offensive stance adds some nice stuff.)(most berserkers use the level 1 defensive stance for its the best one, or none at all)

Bruener

07-19-2011, 11:00 AM

<cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite><blockquote>So you don't use your defensive stuff ok lolz.</blockquote>Troll. Lolz.</blockquote>You say you aren't defensive enough then say you don't use skills that make you more defensive, Everything you accuse brawlers being OP for we have to choose to take, we have to choose to be in DEFENSIVE STANCE to be immune to strike through, something you don't do, we have to choose DEFENSIVE aa's something you choose not to do. We have to choose DEFENSIVE adorns something you choose not to do. Basically you just don't know how to spec for tanking.</blockquote>There is a HUGE difference between abilities that actually work and are good compared to abilities that suck. Can't spell it out much more than that for you.</blockquote>Your abilities work fine. You choose not to take them.</blockquote>Yeah, sure.I really am not sweating it. Its common knowledge how OP'd Brawlers are now. Its also common knowledge how squishy SKs have become. Now all its going to take is time.Expect no loving as a Brawler for a long time is all.

BChizzle

07-19-2011, 11:53 AM

<cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite><blockquote>So you don't use your defensive stuff ok lolz.</blockquote>Troll. Lolz.</blockquote>You say you aren't defensive enough then say you don't use skills that make you more defensive, Everything you accuse brawlers being OP for we have to choose to take, we have to choose to be in DEFENSIVE STANCE to be immune to strike through, something you don't do, we have to choose DEFENSIVE aa's something you choose not to do. We have to choose DEFENSIVE adorns something you choose not to do. Basically you just don't know how to spec for tanking.</blockquote>There is a HUGE difference between abilities that actually work and are good compared to abilities that suck. Can't spell it out much more than that for you.</blockquote>Your abilities work fine. You choose not to take them.</blockquote>Yeah, sure.I really am not sweating it. Its common knowledge how OP'd Brawlers are now. Its also common knowledge how squishy SKs have become. Now all its going to take is time.Expect no loving as a Brawler for a long time is all.</blockquote>Maybe you wouldn't be so squishy if you used defensive stance, defensive adorns and defensive aa's. All things brawlers are required to do to be effective tanks.

Boli32

07-19-2011, 01:01 PM

Actually there is very little difference between a crusader tank fully defensive speced and one offensive speced: A few extra k health from adorns/stance; and a small increase in mitigation. Warriors a bigger difference but not overly so.Brawlers in general appear to have more mitigation than plate tanks for the smple reason they use defensive stance and plate tanks use offensive stance. The reason? Hit RatesTanks in general are screwed on hit rates.... DPS classes cry murder if their hit rate/resist rate drops below 90%... or in some cases 95% where as tanks have to deal with 60-70% hit rates. That is the main reason most tanks choose a reduced mitigation value its so they can actually hit the mob reliablly.Its no accident the biggest increases in tank DPS came with expansions which had a relativly high hit rate for tanks (TSO and TSF 80-90%) and low dps for tanks came with expansions which had a large frontal block (RoK and DoV 60-70%). Its a useless mechanic to reduce fighter DPS which serves no real purpose except to infuriate fighters.They should just merge stances into the self buff and be done with it; you're never going to please everyone with multiple stances unless they really *really* made a difference to both DPS or Survibility.

Talathion

07-19-2011, 01:10 PM

<cite>Boli32 wrote:</cite><blockquote>Actually there is very little difference between a crusader tank fully defensive speced and one offensive speced: A few extra k health from adorns/stance; and a small increase in mitigation. Warriors a bigger difference but not overly so.Brawlers in general appear to have more mitigation than plate tanks for the smple reason they use defensive stance and plate tanks use offensive stance. The reason? Hit RatesTanks in general are screwed on hit rates.... DPS classes cry murder if their hit rate/resist rate drops below 90%... or in some cases 95% where as tanks have to deal with 60-70% hit rates. That is the main reason most tanks choose a reduced mitigation value its so they can actually hit the mob reliablly.Its no accident the biggest increases in tank DPS came with expansions which had a relativly high hit rate for tanks (TSO and TSF 80-90%) and low dps for tanks came with expansions which had a large frontal block (RoK and DoV 60-70%). Its a useless mechanic to reduce fighter DPS which serves no real purpose except to infuriate fighters.They should just merge stances into the self buff and be done with it; you're never going to please everyone with multiple stances unless they really *really* made a difference to both DPS or Survibility.</blockquote>I would use my defensive stance if it added the following: 20%ish Uncontested Avoidance (like brawlers), Strikethrough Immunity, 25% Mitigation Increase instead of 15%. (which I don't understand because they have more mitigation now).I'm sure my SK And Paladin friends would use it too then! <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" />A Suggested Fix that would help everyone!- Remove All Strikethrough Immunity.- Remove Parry/Defense from all stances, its stupid.- Remove Crushing/Piercing/Slashing from all stances, lolAdd the Following to Defensive Stance:Brawlers: +16% Uncontested Deflection Chance, 15% Mitigation Increase, 15% Strikethrough Chance. (M)Crusaders: +200 Stamina, +16% Damage Reduction, +4% Base Avoidance, 15% Strikethrough Chance. (M)Warriors: +200 Stamina, +16% Damage Reduction, +4% Base Avoidance, 15% Strikethrough Chance. (M)Add the Following to Offensive Stance:Brawlers: +20% Multi-Attack Chance, +20% Accuracy, +20% AOE Autoattack.Crusader: +20% Multi-Attack Chance, +20% Accuracy, +10% Spell Damage, +0.1 Auto-Attack Modifier.Warrior: +20% Multi-Attack Chance, +20% Accuracy, +0.2 Auto-Attack Modifier.Add Strikethrough Immunity to the Following Skills:Shadowknight's Furor. (Shadowknight)Defensive Minded. (Guardian)Stonewall. (Paladin)Bob And Weave. (Monk)Impenetrable Will. (Brawler)Battle Frenzy. (Berserker)

BChizzle

07-19-2011, 01:37 PM

<cite>Talathion@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Boli32 wrote:</cite><blockquote>Actually there is very little difference between a crusader tank fully defensive speced and one offensive speced: A few extra k health from adorns/stance; and a small increase in mitigation. Warriors a bigger difference but not overly so.Brawlers in general appear to have more mitigation than plate tanks for the smple reason they use defensive stance and plate tanks use offensive stance. The reason? Hit RatesTanks in general are screwed on hit rates.... DPS classes cry murder if their hit rate/resist rate drops below 90%... or in some cases 95% where as tanks have to deal with 60-70% hit rates. That is the main reason most tanks choose a reduced mitigation value its so they can actually hit the mob reliablly.Its no accident the biggest increases in tank DPS came with expansions which had a relativly high hit rate for tanks (TSO and TSF 80-90%) and low dps for tanks came with expansions which had a large frontal block (RoK and DoV 60-70%). Its a useless mechanic to reduce fighter DPS which serves no real purpose except to infuriate fighters.They should just merge stances into the self buff and be done with it; you're never going to please everyone with multiple stances unless they really *really* made a difference to both DPS or Survibility.</blockquote>I would use my defensive stance if it added the following: 20%ish Uncontested Avoidance (like brawlers), Strikethrough Immunity, 25% Mitigation Increase instead of 15%. (which I don't understand because they have more mitigation now).I'm sure my SK And Paladin friends would use it too then! <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" />A Suggested Fix that would help everyone!- Remove Strikethrough Immunity/Base Avoidance from all stances, its stupid OP.- Remove Parry/Defense from all stances, its stupid.- Remove Crushing/Piercing/Slashing from all stances, lolAdd the Following to Defensive Stance:Brawlers: +16% Uncontested Deflection Chance, 15% Mitigation Increase, 15% Strikethrough Chance. (M)Crusaders: +200 Stamina, +16% Damage Reduction, +4% Base Avoidance, 15% Strikethrough Chance. (M)Warriors: +200 Stamina, +16% Damage Reduction, +4% Base Avoidance, 15% Strikethrough Chance. (M)Add the Following to Offensive Stance:Brawlers: +20% Multi-Attack Chance, +20% Accuracy, +20% AOE Autoattack.Crusader: +20% Multi-Attack Chance, +20% Accuracy, +10% Spell Damage, +0.1 Auto-Attack Modifier.Warrior: +20% Multi-Attack Chance, +20% Accuracy, +0.2 Auto-Attack Modifier.</blockquote>Brawlers only get uncontested avoid from their defensive stance because they don't get shields. It is completely rediculous you would ask for uncontested avoidance in your defensive stance when you already get it from your shield.It makes me laugh plates complain that brawlers have almost near your mit while they are in defensive stance while plates can hit one button and go to defensive stance and the mit levels aren't even close. We should compare u in offensive stance to me.I have just under 7k mit in offensive, how does that compare? I have 0 uncontested block in offensive how does that compare?Plates are OP they don't even need to use their defensive abilities, I think its time for a nerf.

circusgirl

07-19-2011, 01:45 PM

I think Cory said one of the most reasonable things here--right now pretty much all the content is forced single target. We could use a few more mobs with some swarm adds that a shadowknight or zerker can really shine on. The problem isn't the mechanics--those are pretty [Removed for Content] well balaced, it's that content has swung too far in the direction of single target. It's the same thing that made Shadowknights so obscenely powerful in TSO: content that happened to be perfect for their class.

LygerT

07-19-2011, 01:54 PM

<cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite><blockquote>So you don't use your defensive stuff ok lolz.</blockquote>Troll. Lolz.</blockquote>You say you aren't defensive enough then say you don't use skills that make you more defensive, Everything you accuse brawlers being OP for we have to choose to take, we have to choose to be in DEFENSIVE STANCE to be immune to strike through, something you don't do, we have to choose DEFENSIVE aa's something you choose not to do. We have to choose DEFENSIVE adorns something you choose not to do. Basically you just don't know how to spec for tanking.</blockquote>There is a HUGE difference between abilities that actually work and are good compared to abilities that suck. Can't spell it out much more than that for you.</blockquote>Your abilities work fine. You choose not to take them.</blockquote>Yeah, sure.I really am not sweating it. Its common knowledge how OP'd Brawlers are now. Its also common knowledge how squishy SKs have become. Now all its going to take is time.Expect no loving as a Brawler for a long time is all.</blockquote>sounds like an echo here. only the classes have changed.

Talathion

07-19-2011, 01:57 PM

<cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Talathion@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Boli32 wrote:</cite><blockquote>Actually there is very little difference between a crusader tank fully defensive speced and one offensive speced: A few extra k health from adorns/stance; and a small increase in mitigation. Warriors a bigger difference but not overly so.Brawlers in general appear to have more mitigation than plate tanks for the smple reason they use defensive stance and plate tanks use offensive stance. The reason? Hit RatesTanks in general are screwed on hit rates.... DPS classes cry murder if their hit rate/resist rate drops below 90%... or in some cases 95% where as tanks have to deal with 60-70% hit rates. That is the main reason most tanks choose a reduced mitigation value its so they can actually hit the mob reliablly.Its no accident the biggest increases in tank DPS came with expansions which had a relativly high hit rate for tanks (TSO and TSF 80-90%) and low dps for tanks came with expansions which had a large frontal block (RoK and DoV 60-70%). Its a useless mechanic to reduce fighter DPS which serves no real purpose except to infuriate fighters.They should just merge stances into the self buff and be done with it; you're never going to please everyone with multiple stances unless they really *really* made a difference to both DPS or Survibility.</blockquote>I would use my defensive stance if it added the following: 20%ish Uncontested Avoidance (like brawlers), Strikethrough Immunity, 25% Mitigation Increase instead of 15%. (which I don't understand because they have more mitigation now).I'm sure my SK And Paladin friends would use it too then! <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" />A Suggested Fix that would help everyone!- Remove Strikethrough Immunity/Base Avoidance from all stances, its stupid OP.- Remove Parry/Defense from all stances, its stupid.- Remove Crushing/Piercing/Slashing from all stances, lolAdd the Following to Defensive Stance:Brawlers: +16% Uncontested Deflection Chance, 15% Mitigation Increase, 15% Strikethrough Chance. (M)Crusaders: +200 Stamina, +16% Damage Reduction, +4% Base Avoidance, 15% Strikethrough Chance. (M)Warriors: +200 Stamina, +16% Damage Reduction, +4% Base Avoidance, 15% Strikethrough Chance. (M)Add the Following to Offensive Stance:Brawlers: +20% Multi-Attack Chance, +20% Accuracy, +20% AOE Autoattack.Crusader: +20% Multi-Attack Chance, +20% Accuracy, +10% Spell Damage, +0.1 Auto-Attack Modifier.Warrior: +20% Multi-Attack Chance, +20% Accuracy, +0.2 Auto-Attack Modifier.Add Strikethrough Immunity to the Following Skills:Shadowknight's Furor.Defensive Minded.Stonewall.Bob And Weave.Impenetrable Will.Battle Frenzy.</blockquote>Brawlers only get uncontested avoid from their defensive stance because they don't get shields. It is completely rediculous you would ask for uncontested avoidance in your defensive stance when you already get it from your shield.(wrong, Brawlers always have a a base round shield protection equipped since EOF, learn your class better.)It makes me laugh plates complain that brawlers have almost near your mit while they are in defensive stance while plates can hit one button and go to defensive stance and the mit levels aren't even close. We should compare u in offensive stance to me.(More Mitigation for plate tanks do not matter, since going from 7500 to 9000 is only 1.5% Extra Damage Reduction, but going from 6000 to 7500 is 9% Damage Reduction.)I have just under 7k mit in offensive, how does that compare? I have 0 uncontested block in offensive how does that compare?(wrong again, you have MORE block then plate tanks, and +block chance does double for you then what it does for us)Plates are OP they don't even need to use their defensive abilities, I think its time for a nerf.(yeah! nerf those berserkers for not using there uber defensive stance!)<img src="http://img199.imageshack.us/img199/3052/45519884.png" width="306" height="359" />(sad isn't it?)</blockquote>Because Having 7500 (Brawler) Mitigation is 65% Damage Reduction.Having 8800 Mitigation (Warrior/Crusader) is 67% Damage Reduction. (THANKS DIMINISHING RETURNS!)Such a Huge Difference, oh and you forgot that red/blue text above, I marked it "just" for you.((sorry for overshadowing everyone above with this post))

BChizzle

07-19-2011, 02:41 PM

<cite>Talathion@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Talathion@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Boli32 wrote:</cite><blockquote>Actually there is very little difference between a crusader tank fully defensive speced and one offensive speced: A few extra k health from adorns/stance; and a small increase in mitigation. Warriors a bigger difference but not overly so.Brawlers in general appear to have more mitigation than plate tanks for the smple reason they use defensive stance and plate tanks use offensive stance. The reason? Hit RatesTanks in general are screwed on hit rates.... DPS classes cry murder if their hit rate/resist rate drops below 90%... or in some cases 95% where as tanks have to deal with 60-70% hit rates. That is the main reason most tanks choose a reduced mitigation value its so they can actually hit the mob reliablly.Its no accident the biggest increases in tank DPS came with expansions which had a relativly high hit rate for tanks (TSO and TSF 80-90%) and low dps for tanks came with expansions which had a large frontal block (RoK and DoV 60-70%). Its a useless mechanic to reduce fighter DPS which serves no real purpose except to infuriate fighters.They should just merge stances into the self buff and be done with it; you're never going to please everyone with multiple stances unless they really *really* made a difference to both DPS or Survibility.</blockquote>I would use my defensive stance if it added the following: 20%ish Uncontested Avoidance (like brawlers), Strikethrough Immunity, 25% Mitigation Increase instead of 15%. (which I don't understand because they have more mitigation now).I'm sure my SK And Paladin friends would use it too then! <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" />A Suggested Fix that would help everyone!- Remove Strikethrough Immunity/Base Avoidance from all stances, its stupid OP.- Remove Parry/Defense from all stances, its stupid.- Remove Crushing/Piercing/Slashing from all stances, lolAdd the Following to Defensive Stance:Brawlers: +16% Uncontested Deflection Chance, 15% Mitigation Increase, 15% Strikethrough Chance. (M)Crusaders: +200 Stamina, +16% Damage Reduction, +4% Base Avoidance, 15% Strikethrough Chance. (M)Warriors: +200 Stamina, +16% Damage Reduction, +4% Base Avoidance, 15% Strikethrough Chance. (M)Add the Following to Offensive Stance:Brawlers: +20% Multi-Attack Chance, +20% Accuracy, +20% AOE Autoattack.Crusader: +20% Multi-Attack Chance, +20% Accuracy, +10% Spell Damage, +0.1 Auto-Attack Modifier.Warrior: +20% Multi-Attack Chance, +20% Accuracy, +0.2 Auto-Attack Modifier.Add Strikethrough Immunity to the Following Skills:Shadowknight's Furor.Defensive Minded.Stonewall.Bob And Weave.Impenetrable Will.Battle Frenzy.</blockquote>Brawlers only get uncontested avoid from their defensive stance because they don't get shields. It is completely rediculous you would ask for uncontested avoidance in your defensive stance when you already get it from your shield.(wrong, Brawlers always have a a base round shield protection equipped since EOF, learn your class better.)It makes me laugh plates complain that brawlers have almost near your mit while they are in defensive stance while plates can hit one button and go to defensive stance and the mit levels aren't even close. We should compare u in offensive stance to me.(More Mitigation for plate tanks do not matter, since going from 7500 to 9000 is only 1.5% Extra Damage Reduction, but going from 6000 to 7500 is 9% Damage Reduction.)I have just under 7k mit in offensive, how does that compare? I have 0 uncontested block in offensive how does that compare?(wrong again, you have MORE block then plate tanks, and +block chance does double for you then what it does for us)Plates are OP they don't even need to use their defensive abilities, I think its time for a nerf.(yeah! nerf those berserkers for not using there uber defensive stance!)<img src="http://img199.imageshack.us/img199/3052/45519884.png" width="306" height="359" />(sad isn't it?)</blockquote>Because Having 7500 (Brawler) Mitigation is 65% Damage Reduction.Having 8800 Mitigation (Warrior/Crusader) is 67% Damage Reduction. (THANKS DIMINISHING RETURNS!)Such a Huge Difference, oh and you forgot that red/blue text above, I marked it "just" for you.((sorry for overshadowing everyone above with this post))</blockquote>First off brawler have 0 uncontested avoid from thier offensive stance I know my class. They don't have a round shield built into anything, but here is a screen shot for you to help you understand things.<img src="http://i120.photobucket.com/albums/o176/mallent/uncontestedavoid.jpg" width="509" height="478" />You calculations on mitigation are a complete and utter joke as well since you aren't even factoring in the level difference in calculating mit checks. You lack even the most basic understanding of game mechanics here.Lastly brawlers don't get double the benefit from block chance. In fact since brawlers are stuck with their stance with the right shield plates would absolutely own us in this department but that is a matter of itemization and has NOTHING to do with class mechanics.You should just stop commenting on things you don't even have the basic grasp on. Plate tanks need to learn to gear, spec and buff properly end of story.

Bruener

07-19-2011, 02:57 PM

<cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite><blockquote>You should just stop commenting on things you don't even have the basic grasp on. Plate tanks need to learn to gear, spec and buff properly end of story.</blockquote>The fact is Brawlers do not need to spec any more at all than Plate tanks. The fact is Brawlers take less damage due to certain mechanics put in to make sure they don't have much spike damage. The fact is Brawlers avoid a lot more damage due to avoidance tanking + strikethru immunity + parry abilities that actually work + saves on fast reuse + stoneskins. The fact is Brawlers do all that while in Defensive which actually produces as much if not more DPS than their Offensive stance while DW'ing....meaning as much if not the most DPS as any other Fighter.Now combine all that with content that is being designed to be less spiky with physical damage (faster more hits for less % of hp) and content that actually is designed to not even use physical damage (Vlad adds do Magic damage as their auto attack making mitigation worthless, however avoidance still matters).As far as the ST content versus AE content I really don't buy that much. Parses on Brawlers show them parsing just as high as SKs on AE content. As far as type of abilities to avoid damage on AE versus ST the only abilities that become less effective are stoneskins. However abilities like Tsunami and flat damage reduction along with superior all around avoidance become much more effective. Wouldn't suprise me if even with Drunder AE content that we find the same issues. After all we are not talking about Guards that would notice a difference.

LygerT

07-19-2011, 02:59 PM

<cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite><blockquote>You should just stop commenting on things you don't even have the basic grasp on. Plate tanks need to learn to gear, spec and buff properly end of story.</blockquote>right.i'm sure all the plate tanks need to L2P and none can comment as they all need to learn basic mechanics of how to gear to absorb damage.

BChizzle

07-19-2011, 03:11 PM

<cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite><blockquote>You should just stop commenting on things you don't even have the basic grasp on. Plate tanks need to learn to gear, spec and buff properly end of story.</blockquote>The fact is Brawlers do not need to spec any more at all than Plate tanks. The fact is Brawlers take less damage due to certain mechanics put in to make sure they don't have much spike damage. The fact is Brawlers avoid a lot more damage due to avoidance tanking + strikethru immunity + parry abilities that actually work + saves on fast reuse + stoneskins. The fact is Brawlers do all that while in Defensive which actually produces as much if not more DPS than their Offensive stance while DW'ing....meaning as much if not the most DPS as any other Fighter.Now combine all that with content that is being designed to be less spiky with physical damage (faster more hits for less % of hp) and content that actually is designed to not even use physical damage (Vlad adds do Magic damage as their auto attack making mitigation worthless, however avoidance still matters).As far as the ST content versus AE content I really don't buy that much. Parses on Brawlers show them parsing just as high as SKs on AE content. As far as type of abilities to avoid damage on AE versus ST the only abilities that become less effective are stoneskins. However abilities like Tsunami and flat damage reduction along with superior all around avoidance become much more effective. Wouldn't suprise me if even with Drunder AE content that we find the same issues. After all we are not talking about Guards that would notice a difference.</blockquote>Complete and utter lies. You said flat out you don't use defensive stance while brawlers have to use defensive stance or they are dead in seconds, you said flat out you don't use your improved heal aa's while in the aa tree in the exact spot but on a brawler you are complaining that we spec for damage reduction. I bet an inspection of your gear shows very little in tanking adorns and its all dps things.Also, don't bring up this duel wielding nonsense when you get full on duel wield dps as a crusader WHILE WEARING A SHIELD!Complaining about survivability when you don't choose to gear, buff and spec for it makes you a complete joke. I really don't care if your dps takes a hit when you go defensive because so does mine, I don't care that your dps takes a hit when you spec defensive SO DOES MINE. Join reality already, you aren't going to get buffed so you can go full out DPS mode and outsurvive tanks that go defensive.

BChizzle

07-19-2011, 03:12 PM

<cite>Lygerr@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite><blockquote>You should just stop commenting on things you don't even have the basic grasp on. Plate tanks need to learn to gear, spec and buff properly end of story.</blockquote>right.i'm sure all the plate tanks need to L2P and none can comment as they all need to learn basic mechanics of how to gear to absorb damage.</blockquote>If they say they want more survivability but are unwilling to take the survivability tools handed to then then yes they need to L2P.

LygerT

07-19-2011, 03:28 PM

<cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Lygerr@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite><blockquote>You should just stop commenting on things you don't even have the basic grasp on. Plate tanks need to learn to gear, spec and buff properly end of story.</blockquote>right.i'm sure all the plate tanks need to L2P and none can comment as they all need to learn basic mechanics of how to gear to absorb damage.</blockquote>If they say they want more survivability but are unwilling to take the survivability tools handed to then then yes they need to L2P.</blockquote>strangely when i see a lopsided argument this actually how it usually is:1) the person claiming non issue is a poor player to the point that when classes are imbalanced that their average skill tells them that there is no issue and that things are balanced.2) generally when i see more than a few people make claims pointing in a certain direction, there usually is some sort of basis or truth behind it and not a strategic plot to get classes nerfed.granted i would rather see classes get some fixes than for certain people to post up threads about things of this nature as it gives off the impression of "nerf". but when SOE doesn't listen, people will do just about anything in an effort to try and be heard from the voice in the sky. of course i have done the same in the past, so this comment can be construed as hipocritical..

BChizzle

07-19-2011, 03:58 PM

<cite>Lygerr@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote>strangely when i see a lopsided argument this actually how it usually is:1) the person claiming non issue is a poor player to the point that when classes are imbalanced that their average skill tells them that there is no issue and that things are balanced.2) generally when i see more than a few people make claims pointing in a certain direction, there usually is some sort of basis or truth behind it and not a strategic plot to get classes nerfed.granted i would rather see classes get some fixes than for certain people to post up threads about things of this nature as it gives off the impression of "nerf". but when SOE doesn't listen, people will do just about anything in an effort to try and be heard from the voice in the sky. of course i have done the same in the past, so this comment can be construed as hipocritical..</blockquote>You can talk about how average my skills are all you want, but it doesn't take some super greatly skilled level player to realize that more mit = more survivability especially when there guys crying are hovering around the 9-10k mark. It doesn't also take a great player to point out there while Duele crys about not being able to live he doesn't spec for his reflect he doesn't spec for improved heals and probably a huge amount of other things.

Bruener

07-19-2011, 04:14 PM

<cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite><blockquote>You should just stop commenting on things you don't even have the basic grasp on. Plate tanks need to learn to gear, spec and buff properly end of story.</blockquote>The fact is Brawlers do not need to spec any more at all than Plate tanks. The fact is Brawlers take less damage due to certain mechanics put in to make sure they don't have much spike damage. The fact is Brawlers avoid a lot more damage due to avoidance tanking + strikethru immunity + parry abilities that actually work + saves on fast reuse + stoneskins. The fact is Brawlers do all that while in Defensive which actually produces as much if not more DPS than their Offensive stance while DW'ing....meaning as much if not the most DPS as any other Fighter.Now combine all that with content that is being designed to be less spiky with physical damage (faster more hits for less % of hp) and content that actually is designed to not even use physical damage (Vlad adds do Magic damage as their auto attack making mitigation worthless, however avoidance still matters).As far as the ST content versus AE content I really don't buy that much. Parses on Brawlers show them parsing just as high as SKs on AE content. As far as type of abilities to avoid damage on AE versus ST the only abilities that become less effective are stoneskins. However abilities like Tsunami and flat damage reduction along with superior all around avoidance become much more effective. Wouldn't suprise me if even with Drunder AE content that we find the same issues. After all we are not talking about Guards that would notice a difference.</blockquote>Complete and utter lies. You said flat out you don't use defensive stance while brawlers have to use defensive stance or they are dead in seconds, you said flat out you don't use your improved heal aa's while in the aa tree in the exact spot but on a brawler you are complaining that we spec for damage reduction. I bet an inspection of your gear shows very little in tanking adorns and its all dps things.Yes we have been thru this. I don't take improved heal AAs because guess what Reuse speed is better and those points in Potency are better since they do affect my tiny heals, prob as much if not more than what the 5% would since the 5% does not affect the best heals in game, wards. I use the same adorns that our Brawlers use, except our MT uses some more +hate adorns and Cory prefers the block chance adorns versus the flurry adorns something I am seriously contemplating swapping out but debating on if it is worth it for the very small amount of uncontested block it will actually net me that unlike the Brawlers can get struck thru a lot.If you honestly think Brawlers have to adorn all special with Defensive adornments and some special gear you are wrong. SOE made plenty sure that thru a small mitigation gap on diminishing returns along with damage reduction galore they do not take spike damage any more than any other tank. In fact breaking down parses I am sure actual high spikes are lower due to damage reduction.Also, don't bring up this duel wielding nonsense when you get full on duel wield dps as a crusader WHILE WEARING A SHIELD!Check your numbers. Your numbers don't work out in Math or in actual game play. A 1h doing 25% more damage does not equal 2 1h for damage. Looking through lots and lots of numbers on parses and looking right over on Flames to people that post parses I see SKs getting about 30-35k DPS from their auto attack while I see Brawlers sitting around 80k. Yeah...that is equal. Not to mention that those numbers can be hit while a Brawler is in defensive getting more benefits than a shield offers a Plate tank.Complaining about survivability when you don't choose to gear, buff and spec for it makes you a complete joke. I really don't care if your dps takes a hit when you go defensive because so does mine, I don't care that your dps takes a hit when you spec defensive SO DOES MINE. No, see that is the problem. It really doesn't. As a Monk you have the best hit rates in the game. The negatives of Defensive stance are non-existent. As a Brawler you wield 2 weapons all the time while other Fighters are using just 1. That also means twice the procs. Maybe now you can see the problem.....there is absolutely no down side and it is all upside. The upside is more than all the other Fighters. Its an obvious issue, and one that everybody is aware about and like the other times this obvious problem is shown it probably means getting a whole let less Join reality already, you aren't going to get buffed so you can go full out DPS mode and outsurvive tanks that go defensive.Odd that you get to go full out defensive which is more than any other tank, and be as offensive as any other Fighter at the same time. I am not asking to be full out DPS mode and outsurvive every other tank. I need more survivability options to choose from because in the current content it is easy to plow thru a tank that gets struck thru and takes more damage and gets hit more often with only a couple tools on very long reuse timers. I am also just pointing out why Brawlers obviously are way ahead of other tanks in the game currently. OP'd is a perception in relation to other tanks. If SOE wants tanks to be able to do what Brawlers do all the time than they just need to beef up some of the other Fighters a lot.</blockquote>

BChizzle

07-19-2011, 04:34 PM

You are such a fool, going defensive drops a brawlers DPS massively just the same as it does for you. The difference is good players understand at the end of the day you need to live to win while all players like you care about is how high you parse while failing.

Talathion

07-19-2011, 05:03 PM

<cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite><blockquote>You are such a fool, going defensive drops a brawlers DPS massively just the same as it does for you. The difference is good players understand at the end of the day you need to live to win while all players like you care about is how high you parse while failing.</blockquote>Instead of making stuff up, here are the real facts.<img src="http://img7.imageshack.us/img7/5883/44997155.png" />Sorry Bro, you don't lose anything from going into defensive stance, except like 0.3% Accuracy and 52.8 attack speed, which you really don't need since you should have 100ish unbuffed... (with group buffs it should be like 200).

circusgirl

07-19-2011, 05:38 PM

Main tank groups tend to have classes that buff dps, not haste. We also have 8 crit bonus on our offensive stance that we lose out on.

Talathion

07-19-2011, 05:41 PM

<cite>Vinka@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>Main tank groups tend to have classes that buff dps, not haste. We also have 8 crit bonus on our offensive stance that we lose out on.</blockquote>Nice that the top 6 out of 10 guilds WW use Monks as Main Tank.You also gain Riposte chance with stance mastery in defensive stance, Uncontested Riposte Chance > Critical Bonus 100% of the time. (especially if your a bruiser, more stoneskins!)The Fact remains you lose almost nothing.(small note: its creepy that I know too much about other tank classes abilitys/red slot adornments)

BChizzle

07-19-2011, 06:03 PM

<cite>Vinka@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>Main tank groups tend to have classes that buff dps, not haste. We also have 8 crit bonus on our offensive stance that we lose out on.</blockquote>Really no sense with arguing with someone who thinks we get a round shield.

LygerT

07-19-2011, 06:30 PM

<cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Vinka@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>Main tank groups tend to have classes that buff dps, not haste. We also have 8 crit bonus on our offensive stance that we lose out on.</blockquote>Really no sense with arguing with someone who thinks we get a round shield.</blockquote>i may not defend him but it seems you have equal footing in your arguents, regardless of how wrong about certain things each of you are.

circusgirl

07-19-2011, 06:40 PM

<cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Vinka@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>Main tank groups tend to have classes that buff dps, not haste. We also have 8 crit bonus on our offensive stance that we lose out on.</blockquote>Really no sense with arguing with someone who thinks we get a round shield.</blockquote>I'm more annoyed by the way they tend to combine the strengths of bruisers and monks to pretend that we're some uber class with 6 tsunamis, four stoneskins, 50% strikethrough and the ability to stoneskin on every riposte.

BChizzle

07-19-2011, 06:54 PM

<cite>Vinka@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Vinka@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>Main tank groups tend to have classes that buff dps, not haste. We also have 8 crit bonus on our offensive stance that we lose out on.</blockquote>Really no sense with arguing with someone who thinks we get a round shield.</blockquote>I'm more annoyed by the way they tend to combine the strengths of bruisers and monks to pretend that we're some uber class with 6 tsunamis, four stoneskins, 50% strikethrough and the ability to stoneskin on every riposte.</blockquote>Sk and Zerks are AE tanks and have the ability to do everything an AE tank can do, they can also MT when needed. People like Duele will sit there and talk about he would rather spec potency instead of enhanced heals but the he ignores the fact that if a brawler chooses to spec for the damage reduction reactive that they lose out on the potency he thinks is so amazing. They basically want everything with no sacrifice to their DPS. What Xelgad shoud do is introduce a mechanic that forces them into their defensive stance like for example shield not counting while they are in offensive, then they can see what its like to have to sacrifice DPS to be a tank.

Talathion

07-19-2011, 07:08 PM

<cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Vinka@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Vinka@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>Main tank groups tend to have classes that buff dps, not haste. We also have 8 crit bonus on our offensive stance that we lose out on.</blockquote>Really no sense with arguing with someone who thinks we get a round shield.</blockquote>I'm more annoyed by the way they tend to combine the strengths of bruisers and monks to pretend that we're some uber class with 6 tsunamis, four stoneskins, 50% strikethrough and the ability to stoneskin on every riposte.</blockquote>Sk and Zerks are AE tanks and have the ability to do everything an AE tank can do, they can also MT when needed. People like Duele will sit there and talk about he would rather spec potency instead of enhanced heals but the he ignores the fact that if a brawler chooses to spec for the damage reduction reactive that they lose out on the potency he thinks is so amazing. They basically want everything with no sacrifice to their DPS. What Xelgad shoud do is introduce a mechanic that forces them into their defensive stance like for example shield not counting while they are in offensive, then they can see what its like to have to sacrifice DPS to be a tank.</blockquote>Yeah, lets force all tanks into defensive stance! (says the person with the amazing defensive stance while the other tanks get crap).While we are at it, lets put a real decrease on Monk's Defensive Stance, how about them losing there Flurry When they are in defensive?<img src="http://img546.imageshack.us/img546/6406/berserker04stancedefens.jpg" width="523" height="423" />

BChizzle

07-19-2011, 07:30 PM

<cite>Talathion@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Vinka@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Vinka@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>Main tank groups tend to have classes that buff dps, not haste. We also have 8 crit bonus on our offensive stance that we lose out on.</blockquote>Really no sense with arguing with someone who thinks we get a round shield.</blockquote>I'm more annoyed by the way they tend to combine the strengths of bruisers and monks to pretend that we're some uber class with 6 tsunamis, four stoneskins, 50% strikethrough and the ability to stoneskin on every riposte.</blockquote>Sk and Zerks are AE tanks and have the ability to do everything an AE tank can do, they can also MT when needed. People like Duele will sit there and talk about he would rather spec potency instead of enhanced heals but the he ignores the fact that if a brawler chooses to spec for the damage reduction reactive that they lose out on the potency he thinks is so amazing. They basically want everything with no sacrifice to their DPS. What Xelgad shoud do is introduce a mechanic that forces them into their defensive stance like for example shield not counting while they are in offensive, then they can see what its like to have to sacrifice DPS to be a tank.</blockquote>Yeah, lets force all tanks into defensive stance! (says the person with the amazing defensive stance while the other tanks get crap).While we are at it, lets put a real decrease on Monk's Defensive Stance, how about them losing there Flurry When they are in defensive?<img src="http://img546.imageshack.us/img546/6406/berserker04stancedefens.jpg" width="523" height="423" /></blockquote>Brawler flurry is an AA choice, they don't have to choose it. But I don't see how losing 50 haste, 27 defense 8 crit bonus and 100 offensive skills isn't a penalty. What I do see is you trying to twist things. You want to compare tanking compare Brawler in offensive tanking vs plate tank in offensive, then compare both in defensive where you have a massive mit advantage.

Bruener

07-19-2011, 08:06 PM

<cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Vinka@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Vinka@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>Main tank groups tend to have classes that buff dps, not haste. We also have 8 crit bonus on our offensive stance that we lose out on.</blockquote>Really no sense with arguing with someone who thinks we get a round shield.</blockquote>I'm more annoyed by the way they tend to combine the strengths of bruisers and monks to pretend that we're some uber class with 6 tsunamis, four stoneskins, 50% strikethrough and the ability to stoneskin on every riposte.</blockquote>Sk and Zerks are AE tanks and have the ability to do everything an AE tank can do, they can also MT when needed. People like Duele will sit there and talk about he would rather spec potency instead of enhanced heals but the he ignores the fact that if a brawler chooses to spec for the damage reduction reactive that they lose out on the potency he thinks is so amazing. They basically want everything with no sacrifice to their DPS. What Xelgad shoud do is introduce a mechanic that forces them into their defensive stance like for example shield not counting while they are in offensive, then they can see what its like to have to sacrifice DPS to be a tank.</blockquote>Odd that the AE tanks are not the ones that have AE target locks isn't it? The problem is you keep talking about enhanced heals and it is a garbage ability, as stated because it does not include the most important heals which are wards...you know the heal that prevents the spikes? Tell you what, if I had the damage reduction reactive you can bet that I would be spec'd for it. You can also bet I would spec for the enhanced heals if it actually included wards. Stop talking about the ability as if it is actually worth something. It is not, it is garbage. Next I am sure you will go ahead and preach about how good Manawall is even though it is a junk ability as well. Guess how well damage absorption based on your power works with all these power draining fights?Here is the difference....the abilities that you keep talking about as defensive for a SK are junk. The abilities that you think you are so great for choosing to spec defensively as a Monk are AWESOME. It makes a real big difference in what you choose to spec when you have a junk defensive ability versus an Awesome defensive ability.Furthermore, it is ridiculous that you think it is ok for you to spec all the Defensive stuff you want, to sit in defensive stance, supposedly use all Defensive adornments and still parse as high as any other Offensive tank. You have no penalties for doing what you choose to do and that is what is broken. People claimed SKs had the same thing in TSO with how offensive they could be....the big difference now compared to than is that SKs were not the most defensive tanks, unlike Brawlers that are. OP'd you hypocrit.Not like it matters, your opinion has ALWAYS been for your own agenda completely and the fact is you wouldn't know balanced if it smacked you in the testicles. I mean you couldn't even tell how powerful your own toon was in SF when a Brawler could dominate. But I can handle you having to be OP'd. Just stay out of my way as I work on getting my stuff fixed and stop pretending that you are not enjoying the best of everything right now.

Talathion

07-19-2011, 08:18 PM

<cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Vinka@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Vinka@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>Main tank groups tend to have classes that buff dps, not haste. We also have 8 crit bonus on our offensive stance that we lose out on.</blockquote>Really no sense with arguing with someone who thinks we get a round shield.</blockquote>I'm more annoyed by the way they tend to combine the strengths of bruisers and monks to pretend that we're some uber class with 6 tsunamis, four stoneskins, 50% strikethrough and the ability to stoneskin on every riposte.</blockquote>Sk and Zerks are AE tanks and have the ability to do everything an AE tank can do, they can also MT when needed. People like Duele will sit there and talk about he would rather spec potency instead of enhanced heals but the he ignores the fact that if a brawler chooses to spec for the damage reduction reactive that they lose out on the potency he thinks is so amazing. They basically want everything with no sacrifice to their DPS. What Xelgad shoud do is introduce a mechanic that forces them into their defensive stance like for example shield not counting while they are in offensive, then they can see what its like to have to sacrifice DPS to be a tank.</blockquote>Odd that the AE tanks are not the ones that have AE target locks isn't it? The problem is you keep talking about enhanced heals and it is a garbage ability, as stated because it does not include the most important heals which are wards...you know the heal that prevents the spikes? Tell you what, if I had the damage reduction reactive you can bet that I would be spec'd for it. You can also bet I would spec for the enhanced heals if it actually included wards. Stop talking about the ability as if it is actually worth something. It is not, it is garbage. Next I am sure you will go ahead and preach about how good Manawall is even though it is a junk ability as well. Guess how well damage absorption based on your power works with all these power draining fights?Here is the difference....the abilities that you keep talking about as defensive for a SK are junk. The abilities that you think you are so great for choosing to spec defensively as a Monk are AWESOME. It makes a real big difference in what you choose to spec when you have a junk defensive ability versus an Awesome defensive ability.Furthermore, it is ridiculous that you think it is ok for you to spec all the Defensive stuff you want, to sit in defensive stance, supposedly use all Defensive adornments and still parse as high as any other Offensive tank. You have no penalties for doing what you choose to do and that is what is broken. People claimed SKs had the same thing in TSO with how offensive they could be....the big difference now compared to than is that SKs were not the most defensive tanks, unlike Brawlers that are. OP'd you hypocrit.Not like it matters, your opinion has ALWAYS been for your own agenda completely and the fact is you wouldn't know balanced if it smacked you in the testicles. I mean you couldn't even tell how powerful your own toon was in SF when a Brawler could dominate. But I can handle you having to be OP'd. Just stay out of my way as I work on getting my stuff fixed and stop pretending that you are not enjoying the best of everything right now.</blockquote>Also, besides all that... Theres a monk that would NOT spec for 11% flurry... why?

BChizzle

07-19-2011, 08:20 PM

<cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Vinka@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Vinka@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>Main tank groups tend to have classes that buff dps, not haste. We also have 8 crit bonus on our offensive stance that we lose out on.</blockquote>Really no sense with arguing with someone who thinks we get a round shield.</blockquote>I'm more annoyed by the way they tend to combine the strengths of bruisers and monks to pretend that we're some uber class with 6 tsunamis, four stoneskins, 50% strikethrough and the ability to stoneskin on every riposte.</blockquote>Sk and Zerks are AE tanks and have the ability to do everything an AE tank can do, they can also MT when needed. People like Duele will sit there and talk about he would rather spec potency instead of enhanced heals but the he ignores the fact that if a brawler chooses to spec for the damage reduction reactive that they lose out on the potency he thinks is so amazing. They basically want everything with no sacrifice to their DPS. What Xelgad shoud do is introduce a mechanic that forces them into their defensive stance like for example shield not counting while they are in offensive, then they can see what its like to have to sacrifice DPS to be a tank.</blockquote>Odd that the AE tanks are not the ones that have AE target locks isn't it? The problem is you keep talking about enhanced heals and it is a garbage ability, as stated because it does not include the most important heals which are wards...you know the heal that prevents the spikes? Tell you what, if I had the damage reduction reactive you can bet that I would be spec'd for it. You can also bet I would spec for the enhanced heals if it actually included wards. Stop talking about the ability as if it is actually worth something. It is not, it is garbage. Next I am sure you will go ahead and preach about how good Manawall is even though it is a junk ability as well. Guess how well damage absorption based on your power works with all these power draining fights?Here is the difference....the abilities that you keep talking about as defensive for a SK are junk. The abilities that you think you are so great for choosing to spec defensively as a Monk are AWESOME. It makes a real big difference in what you choose to spec when you have a junk defensive ability versus an Awesome defensive ability.Furthermore, it is ridiculous that you think it is ok for you to spec all the Defensive stuff you want, to sit in defensive stance, supposedly use all Defensive adornments and still parse as high as any other Offensive tank. You have no penalties for doing what you choose to do and that is what is broken. People claimed SKs had the same thing in TSO with how offensive they could be....the big difference now compared to than is that SKs were not the most defensive tanks, unlike Brawlers that are. OP'd you hypocrit.Not like it matters, your opinion has ALWAYS been for your own agenda completely and the fact is you wouldn't know balanced if it smacked you in the testicles. I mean you couldn't even tell how powerful your own toon was in SF when a Brawler could dominate. But I can handle you having to be OP'd. Just stay out of my way as I work on getting my stuff fixed and stop pretending that you are not enjoying the best of everything right now.</blockquote>News flash bruiser is an ae tank. I don't parse as high as a SK in my defensive build my dps drops massively but I don't care since I am tanking a mob not dpsing and while I am pretty sure I am not the top parsing monk out there I am pretty competitive within the class and can beat any parse Ive seen posted on EQ2 flames by a monk. I cannot however do 500k dps on Taaltak (no miracles) like an SK can, that sir is the reality you claim your class is hurting compared to other tanks DPS wise but actual good sk's are putting up beast numbers.

BChizzle

07-19-2011, 08:21 PM

<cite>Talathion@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Vinka@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Vinka@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>Main tank groups tend to have classes that buff dps, not haste. We also have 8 crit bonus on our offensive stance that we lose out on.</blockquote>Really no sense with arguing with someone who thinks we get a round shield.</blockquote>I'm more annoyed by the way they tend to combine the strengths of bruisers and monks to pretend that we're some uber class with 6 tsunamis, four stoneskins, 50% strikethrough and the ability to stoneskin on every riposte.</blockquote>Sk and Zerks are AE tanks and have the ability to do everything an AE tank can do, they can also MT when needed. People like Duele will sit there and talk about he would rather spec potency instead of enhanced heals but the he ignores the fact that if a brawler chooses to spec for the damage reduction reactive that they lose out on the potency he thinks is so amazing. They basically want everything with no sacrifice to their DPS. What Xelgad shoud do is introduce a mechanic that forces them into their defensive stance like for example shield not counting while they are in offensive, then they can see what its like to have to sacrifice DPS to be a tank.</blockquote>Odd that the AE tanks are not the ones that have AE target locks isn't it? The problem is you keep talking about enhanced heals and it is a garbage ability, as stated because it does not include the most important heals which are wards...you know the heal that prevents the spikes? Tell you what, if I had the damage reduction reactive you can bet that I would be spec'd for it. You can also bet I would spec for the enhanced heals if it actually included wards. Stop talking about the ability as if it is actually worth something. It is not, it is garbage. Next I am sure you will go ahead and preach about how good Manawall is even though it is a junk ability as well. Guess how well damage absorption based on your power works with all these power draining fights?Here is the difference....the abilities that you keep talking about as defensive for a SK are junk. The abilities that you think you are so great for choosing to spec defensively as a Monk are AWESOME. It makes a real big difference in what you choose to spec when you have a junk defensive ability versus an Awesome defensive ability.Furthermore, it is ridiculous that you think it is ok for you to spec all the Defensive stuff you want, to sit in defensive stance, supposedly use all Defensive adornments and still parse as high as any other Offensive tank. You have no penalties for doing what you choose to do and that is what is broken. People claimed SKs had the same thing in TSO with how offensive they could be....the big difference now compared to than is that SKs were not the most defensive tanks, unlike Brawlers that are. OP'd you hypocrit.Not like it matters, your opinion has ALWAYS been for your own agenda completely and the fact is you wouldn't know balanced if it smacked you in the testicles. I mean you couldn't even tell how powerful your own toon was in SF when a Brawler could dominate. But I can handle you having to be OP'd. Just stay out of my way as I work on getting my stuff fixed and stop pretending that you are not enjoying the best of everything right now.</blockquote>Also, besides all that... Theres a monk that would NOT spec for 11% flurry... why?</blockquote>Its 6% flurry I thought you knew everything there is to know about other tanks?

Bruener

07-19-2011, 08:32 PM

<cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite><blockquote>News flash bruiser is an ae tank. I don't parse as high as a SK in my defensive build my dps drops massively but I don't care since I am tanking a mob not dpsing and while I am pretty sure I am not the top parsing monk out there I am pretty competitive within the class and can beat any parse Ive seen posted on EQ2 flames by a monk. I cannot however do 500k dps on Taaltak (no miracles) like an SK can, that sir is the reality you claim your class is hurting compared to other tanks DPS wise but actual good sk's are putting up beast numbers.</blockquote>LOL. Blanka says everything is balanced because of 1 freak 41 sec parse on an extremely easy encounter where the group had everything stacked up ready to go.Whew. And I was worried. Now I can rest easy knowing that everything is A-ok because obviously that shows it is.Pretty stupid.

Talathion

07-19-2011, 08:40 PM

<cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite><blockquote>News flash bruiser is an ae tank. I don't parse as high as a SK in my defensive build my dps drops massively but I don't care since I am tanking a mob not dpsing and while I am pretty sure I am not the top parsing monk out there I am pretty competitive within the class and can beat any parse Ive seen posted on EQ2 flames by a monk. I cannot however do 500k dps on Taaltak (no miracles) like an SK can, that sir is the reality you claim your class is hurting compared to other tanks DPS wise but actual good sk's are putting up beast numbers.</blockquote>LOL. Blanka says everything is balanced because of 1 freak 41 sec parse on an extremely easy encounter where the group had everything stacked up ready to go.Whew. And I was worried. Now I can rest easy knowing that everything is A-ok because obviously that shows it is.Pretty stupid.</blockquote>If there wasn't anything wrong then this issue wouldn't be 7-soon to be 8 pages...

Corydonn

07-19-2011, 08:46 PM

<cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote>LOL. Blanka says everything is balanced because of 1 freak 41 sec parse on an extremely easy encounter where the group had everything stacked up ready to go.Whew. And I was worried. Now I can rest easy knowing that everything is A-ok because obviously that shows it is.Pretty stupid.</blockquote>Hey as long as we are just looking at zonewides. The SK wins out <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

LygerT

07-19-2011, 08:56 PM

<cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite><blockquote>Brawler flurry is an AA choice, they don't have to choose it. But I don't see how losing 50 haste, 27 defense 8 crit bonus and 100 offensive skills isn't a penalty. What I do see is you trying to twist things. You want to compare tanking compare Brawler in offensive tanking vs plate tank in offensive, then compare both in defensive where you have a massive mit advantage.</blockquote>news flash, most plate tanks STILL can't switch to defensive because they will lose too much hate to control aggro(low hit rates and offensive procs). all that for marginal gains due to DR, which basically make it almost worthless to do anything outside of offensive stance.

BChizzle

07-19-2011, 09:13 PM

<cite>Lygerr@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite><blockquote>Brawler flurry is an AA choice, they don't have to choose it. But I don't see how losing 50 haste, 27 defense 8 crit bonus and 100 offensive skills isn't a penalty. What I do see is you trying to twist things. You want to compare tanking compare Brawler in offensive tanking vs plate tank in offensive, then compare both in defensive where you have a massive mit advantage.</blockquote>news flash, most plate tanks STILL can't switch to defensive because they will lose too much hate to control aggro(low hit rates and offensive procs). all that for marginal gains due to DR, which basically make it almost worthless to do anything outside of offensive stance.</blockquote>Welcome to the thread, its titled brawlers have more mit than plates, its not titled when I spec defensively I have trouble holding agro. If it were titled that plates would have first been required to actually spec defensively in the first place which will never happen since they want to be super offensive tanks who also survive the best.

circusgirl

07-20-2011, 12:27 AM

<cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Vinka@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Vinka@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>Main tank groups tend to have classes that buff dps, not haste. We also have 8 crit bonus on our offensive stance that we lose out on.</blockquote>Really no sense with arguing with someone who thinks we get a round shield.</blockquote>I'm more annoyed by the way they tend to combine the strengths of bruisers and monks to pretend that we're some uber class with 6 tsunamis, four stoneskins, 50% strikethrough and the ability to stoneskin on every riposte.</blockquote>Sk and Zerks are AE tanks and have the ability to do everything an AE tank can do, they can also MT when needed. People like Duele will sit there and talk about he would rather spec potency instead of enhanced heals but the he ignores the fact that if a brawler chooses to spec for the damage reduction reactive that they lose out on the potency he thinks is so amazing. They basically want everything with no sacrifice to their DPS. What Xelgad shoud do is introduce a mechanic that forces them into their defensive stance like for example shield not counting while they are in offensive, then they can see what its like to have to sacrifice DPS to be a tank.</blockquote>Odd that the AE tanks are not the ones that have AE target locks isn't it? The problem is you keep talking about enhanced heals and it is a garbage ability, as stated because it does not include the most important heals which are wards...you know the heal that prevents the spikes? Tell you what, if I had the damage reduction reactive you can bet that I would be spec'd for it. You can also bet I would spec for the enhanced heals if it actually included wards. Stop talking about the ability as if it is actually worth something. It is not, it is garbage. Next I am sure you will go ahead and preach about how good Manawall is even though it is a junk ability as well. Guess how well damage absorption based on your power works with all these power draining fights?Here is the difference....the abilities that you keep talking about as defensive for a SK are junk. The abilities that you think you are so great for choosing to spec defensively as a Monk are AWESOME. It makes a real big difference in what you choose to spec when you have a junk defensive ability versus an Awesome defensive ability.Furthermore, it is ridiculous that you think it is ok for you to spec all the Defensive stuff you want, to sit in defensive stance, supposedly use all Defensive adornments and still parse as high as any other Offensive tank. You have no penalties for doing what you choose to do and that is what is broken. People claimed SKs had the same thing in TSO with how offensive they could be....the big difference now compared to than is that SKs were not the most defensive tanks, unlike Brawlers that are. OP'd you hypocrit.Not like it matters, your opinion has ALWAYS been for your own agenda completely and the fact is you wouldn't know balanced if it smacked you in the testicles. I mean you couldn't even tell how powerful your own toon was in SF when a Brawler could dominate. But I can handle you having to be OP'd. Just stay out of my way as I work on getting my stuff fixed and stop pretending that you are not enjoying the best of everything right now.</blockquote>Quit conflating bruisers and monks. We are not the same class. We do not have the same abilities. It's a little ridiculous for folks to talk about a bruiser's target lock in one paragraph and then in the next go on about how monks are so awesomeMonks don't have an AE target lock.

Talathion

07-20-2011, 06:13 AM

A good way to start a fix for Shadowknight/Berserker would be to make all non-percent based heals critical again.

Silzin

07-20-2011, 09:30 AM

<cite>Talathion@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>A good way to start a fix for Shadowknight/Berserker would be to make all non-percent based heals critical again.</blockquote>Or give your Defensive stance something that would help you hold agro and take dmg better.

Wasuna

07-20-2011, 11:17 AM

Crit heals is another thread. Crit heals effect 3 of the six fighter classes and if they change that again then we are now in a discussion on what the other three classes get as compensation.

Bruener

07-20-2011, 01:52 PM

<cite>Wasuna wrote:</cite><blockquote>Crit heals is another thread. Crit heals effect 3 of the six fighter classes and if they change that again then we are now in a discussion on what the other three classes get as compensation.</blockquote>The other 3 don't "need" anything currently. The 3 that crit heals would affect are the 3 that are currently behind the curve. They are the ones that "need" a few changes. I really don't want to focus on crit heals though because it still comes to the point that when the healers are doing their job the heals will always be very minimal and really all that it does is make those 3 Fighters better at solo'ing and better in heroic content with bad healers. That is not where any Fighter is hurting.The area of issue is specifically in raiding content and the lack of survivability tools that a few fighters have compared to others. Every Fighter holds agro like a champ this xpac because SOE has bumped those lacking before and due to forced buffs every tank group is getting the hate buffs and siphons as well. DPS is in the toilet from last xpac which is an entirely different issue and one that probably will be addressed as the game updates happen. The gap between T1 and everybody else has just gotten way too big which really hinders any type of DPS burn fight. DPS overall though there is a very small margin between what Fighters put out....which at best is mediocre in a setting.Really the issue is the amount of abilities some Fighters get compared to others. And just as important the reuse difference on those abilities. Its real simple to put a list of abilities and discuss their effectiveness for every Fighter class and how often they can use the abilities to come up with 3 Fighters with lot of reusable abilities and 3 not. Than of course add in the effectiveness of abilities with the whole strike thru mechanics.Hopefully the future AA changes reflect the above issues.

Corydonn

07-20-2011, 02:14 PM

<cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote>Every Fighter holds agro like a champ this xpac because SOE has bumped those lacking before and due to forced buffs every tank group is getting the hate buffs and siphons as well. </blockquote>I don't want you complaining ever again when you rip aggro from me!

Caethre

07-20-2011, 02:22 PM

(( The problem with this thread is simple. Yes, the thread has the title "brawlers have more mitigation then plates". However, just because the title of this thread says that, that does not mean the statement is true.Sure, compare a PQ-geared Plate Tank with a HM-raidgeared Brawler, and you will see that, obviously. But how is that a valid comparison to be making? Hey, once the silly comparisons start, why not go further, and complain that a Level 90 Brawler has more mitigation than a Level 10 Beserker? *laughs*Back on planet reality, brawlers simply do not have more mitigation than equivalent plate tanks.Equivalent means - same level, same AAs, same gear/adorns setup, same quality of buffs, and same stance.The statement "brawlers have more mitigation then plates" is FALSE.Everything that follows from that is ... garbage. ))

Controlor

07-20-2011, 02:22 PM

<cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote>The area of issue is specifically in raiding content and the lack of survivability tools that a few fighters have compared to others. Every Fighter holds agro like a champ this xpac because SOE has bumped those lacking before and due to forced buffs every tank group is getting the hate buffs and siphons as well. DPS is in the toilet from last xpac which is an entirely different issue and one that probably will be addressed as the game updates happen. The gap between T1 and everybody else has just gotten way too big which really hinders any type of DPS burn fight. DPS overall though there is a very small margin between what Fighters put out....which at best is mediocre in a setting.Really the issue is the amount of abilities some Fighters get compared to others. And just as important the reuse difference on those abilities. Its real simple to put a list of abilities and discuss their effectiveness for every Fighter class and how often they can use the abilities to come up with 3 Fighters with lot of reusable abilities and 3 not. Than of course add in the effectiveness of abilities with the whole strike thru mechanics.Hopefully the future AA changes reflect the above issues.</blockquote>That is a half decent idea. Someone post a comprehensive list of all defensive abilities that each tank can get. From there you can than start talking about the balance between defense of not.Something likeMonk:Ability 1 - does this - base reuse 5 min.Include all the modifiers that going defensive would bring to that ability as well (such as bruisers removing the -melee stats on def stance from AA, or crusaders getting 10% strike / accuracy / resist less on crusaders faith)Cory:"I don't want you complaining ever again when you rip aggro from me!"I think that is more due to grave sacrament (possibly a SDA'ed GS if timed with TW).

Bruener

07-20-2011, 02:28 PM

<cite>Corydonn wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote>Every Fighter holds agro like a champ this xpac because SOE has bumped those lacking before and due to forced buffs every tank group is getting the hate buffs and siphons as well. </blockquote>I don't want you complaining ever again when you rip aggro from me!</blockquote>You shouldn't have it in the first place most likely!!!!

LardLord

07-20-2011, 02:31 PM

Brawlers should have more temps, though. Since Xelgad took over, the idea for the class has basically been to give them a ton of temps, so that they can spike their survivability to ridiculous levels at times, but, at other times, their survivability would be relatively low. The up time on those temps is really high now, though, and the baseline survivability for the class is higher than it has ever been, too.Things would probably be a lot more in balance if they just lowered the up time on Brawlers Tenacity (by lowering AA'd duration and/or increasing recast) and then maybe take the mit off the self buffs that was added with DoV. Are you with me, Corydonn?!

Corydonn

07-20-2011, 02:38 PM

<cite>Quabi@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>Brawlers should have more temps, though. Since Xelgad took over, the idea for the class has basically been to give them a ton of temps, so that they can spike their survivability to ridiculous levels at times, but, at other times, their survivability would be relatively low. The up time on those temps is really high now, though, and the baseline survivability for the class is higher than it has ever been, too.Things would probably be a lot more in balance if they just lowered the up time on Brawlers Tenacity (by lowering AA'd duration and/or increasing recast) and then maybe take the mit off the self buffs that was added with DoV. Are you with me, Corydonn?!</blockquote>That'd likely be the best option, Bruisers still have two useless mit temps and Monks have one but... I'd almost rather not see those fixed.And to respond to Duele, Any ToRZ HM boss usually takes notice to the nuclear warheads on the end of your arrows!

Talathion

07-20-2011, 03:08 PM

Non-Critting Percent heals means No overpowered Reaver again, No Overpowered Battle Frenzy or VoM, No Overpowered Brawler Heals.The Reason Critical heals were nerfed is because the percent based criticals were rediculous.Paladins Reuse on there heals were doubled, so making them critical would be a little more balanced.Shadowknight's non-Reaving HOTs/Heals are only doing about 720 HPS in Raids.Berserkers Blood Rage is only doing about 380 HPS ZW. (because it was made for criticaling and not changed.)Berserkers Ward of Rage is only doing 130 HPS ZW. (because it was made for criticaling and not changed.)

Bruener

07-20-2011, 03:49 PM

<cite>Corydonn wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Quabi@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>Brawlers should have more temps, though. Since Xelgad took over, the idea for the class has basically been to give them a ton of temps, so that they can spike their survivability to ridiculous levels at times, but, at other times, their survivability would be relatively low. The up time on those temps is really high now, though, and the baseline survivability for the class is higher than it has ever been, too.Things would probably be a lot more in balance if they just lowered the up time on Brawlers Tenacity (by lowering AA'd duration and/or increasing recast) and then maybe take the mit off the self buffs that was added with DoV. Are you with me, Corydonn?!</blockquote>That'd likely be the best option, Bruisers still have two useless mit temps and Monks have one but... I'd almost rather not see those fixed.And to respond to Duele, Any ToRZ HM boss usually takes notice to the nuclear warheads on the end of your arrows!</blockquote>Yeah, yeah....I knew you were going to cycle to that.As for what Quabi said that is probably it in a nut shell. Pre-DoV it was about benig a CC tank, emergency tank with amazing temp abilities to do that job. In SF was the prime of what they could do, grabbing mobs and moving them easily and controlling things if anything started to hit the fan, or fast add pick up...while also bringing the single best survivability tool to the MT (avoidance buff) and good DPS. DoV just sees them taking less damage and getting hit way less as a baseline compared to other Fighters while still keeping all those temp abilities and even adding some additional damage avoiding tools (damage reduction reactive, beefing to Death Save).Simple way to look at it is the class was always designed as an emergency, CC, DPS tank. In DoV SOE decided to take away spike damage they took because of player complaints and that combined with what was present before makes for a superior Fighter.

BChizzle

07-20-2011, 03:56 PM

<cite>Quabi@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>Brawlers should have more temps, though. Since Xelgad took over, the idea for the class has basically been to give them a ton of temps, so that they can spike their survivability to ridiculous levels at times, but, at other times, their survivability would be relatively low. The up time on those temps is really high now, though, and the baseline survivability for the class is higher than it has ever been, too.Things would probably be a lot more in balance if they just lowered the up time on Brawlers Tenacity (by lowering AA'd duration and/or increasing recast) and then maybe take the mit off the self buffs that was added with DoV. Are you with me, Corydonn?!</blockquote>I would be ok with a slight increase to the death prevent recast but not a lowering of the duration, its hard enough to predict when a brawler is going to spike. As far as more temps, no no and no brawlers have enough temps.

LardLord

07-20-2011, 04:06 PM

<cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Quabi@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>Brawlers should have more temps, though. Since Xelgad took over, the idea for the class has basically been to give them a ton of temps, so that they can spike their survivability to ridiculous levels at times, but, at other times, their survivability would be relatively low. The up time on those temps is really high now, though, and the baseline survivability for the class is higher than it has ever been, too.Things would probably be a lot more in balance if they just lowered the up time on Brawlers Tenacity (by lowering AA'd duration and/or increasing recast) and then maybe take the mit off the self buffs that was added with DoV. Are you with me, Corydonn?!</blockquote>I would be ok with a slight increase to the death prevent recast but not a lowering of the duration, its hard enough to predict when a brawler is going to spike. As far as more temps, no no and no brawlers have enough temps.</blockquote>Yeah, I meant Brawlers should have more temps than other tanks, not more temps than they have now.

Silzin

07-20-2011, 04:10 PM

<cite>Quabi@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>Brawlers should have more temps, though. Since Xelgad took over, the idea for the class has basically been to give them a ton of temps, so that they can spike their survivability to ridiculous levels at times, but, at other times, their survivability would be relatively low. The up time on those temps is really high now, though, and the baseline survivability for the class is higher than it has ever been, too.Things would probably be a lot more in balance if they just lowered the up time on Brawlers Tenacity (by lowering AA'd duration and/or increasing recast) and then maybe take the mit off the self buffs that was added with DoV. Are you with me, Corydonn?!</blockquote>If you want a place to reduce Mit on the Brawlers i would say it would be better to reduce or remove the +mit in the class and shadows lines that we get seperitly. the gaw Mit that was added will help an under geared brawler stay up much more then the +Mit will help, and you can get about the same effect of reducing our Mit this way.

Talathion

07-20-2011, 04:23 PM

The Mitigation they got from skills and the Character tree is rediculous.

BChizzle

07-20-2011, 04:35 PM

<cite>Silzin@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Quabi@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>Brawlers should have more temps, though. Since Xelgad took over, the idea for the class has basically been to give them a ton of temps, so that they can spike their survivability to ridiculous levels at times, but, at other times, their survivability would be relatively low. The up time on those temps is really high now, though, and the baseline survivability for the class is higher than it has ever been, too.Things would probably be a lot more in balance if they just lowered the up time on Brawlers Tenacity (by lowering AA'd duration and/or increasing recast) and then maybe take the mit off the self buffs that was added with DoV. Are you with me, Corydonn?!</blockquote>If you want a place to reduce Mit on the Brawlers i would say it would be better to reduce or remove the +mit in the class and shadows lines that we get seperitly. the gaw Mit that was added will help an under geared brawler stay up much more then the +Mit will help, and you can get about the same effect of reducing our Mit this way.</blockquote>They don't need to touch brawler mit, it is fine where it is. Despite what some people would have you believe it isn't anywhere close to plate levels and plate tanks are crying about mit while not utilizing their defensive stance mit bonus.

Talathion

07-20-2011, 04:38 PM

<cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Silzin@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Quabi@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>Brawlers should have more temps, though. Since Xelgad took over, the idea for the class has basically been to give them a ton of temps, so that they can spike their survivability to ridiculous levels at times, but, at other times, their survivability would be relatively low. The up time on those temps is really high now, though, and the baseline survivability for the class is higher than it has ever been, too.Things would probably be a lot more in balance if they just lowered the up time on Brawlers Tenacity (by lowering AA'd duration and/or increasing recast) and then maybe take the mit off the self buffs that was added with DoV. Are you with me, Corydonn?!</blockquote>If you want a place to reduce Mit on the Brawlers i would say it would be better to reduce or remove the +mit in the class and shadows lines that we get seperitly. the gaw Mit that was added will help an under geared brawler stay up much more then the +Mit will help, and you can get about the same effect of reducing our Mit this way.</blockquote>They don't need to touch brawler mit, it is fine where it is. Despite what some people would have you believe it isn't anywhere close to plate levels and plate tanks are crying about mit while not utilizing their defensive stance mit bonus.</blockquote>Dude DID You even LOOK at some of the defensive stances other tanks get compared to yours?Your Defensive stance is 15 times better then mine is.

Silzin

07-20-2011, 04:43 PM

<cite>Talathion@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite>Dude DID You even LOOK at some of the defensive stances other tanks get compared to yours?Your Defensive stance is 15 times better then mine is.</blockquote>then U need to work on OUR Defensive stance.... all of the other things are just symptoms of a problem, this looks like the problem its self.

Talathion

07-20-2011, 04:45 PM

<cite>Silzin@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Talathion@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite>Dude DID You even LOOK at some of the defensive stances other tanks get compared to yours?Your Defensive stance is 15 times better then mine is.</blockquote>then U need to work on OUR Defensive stance.... all of the other things are just symptoms of a problem, this looks like the problem its self.</blockquote>The only way to fix it would be to add 50% strikethrough.

Bruener

07-20-2011, 05:30 PM

<cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Silzin@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Quabi@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>Brawlers should have more temps, though. Since Xelgad took over, the idea for the class has basically been to give them a ton of temps, so that they can spike their survivability to ridiculous levels at times, but, at other times, their survivability would be relatively low. The up time on those temps is really high now, though, and the baseline survivability for the class is higher than it has ever been, too.Things would probably be a lot more in balance if they just lowered the up time on Brawlers Tenacity (by lowering AA'd duration and/or increasing recast) and then maybe take the mit off the self buffs that was added with DoV. Are you with me, Corydonn?!</blockquote>If you want a place to reduce Mit on the Brawlers i would say it would be better to reduce or remove the +mit in the class and shadows lines that we get seperitly. the gaw Mit that was added will help an under geared brawler stay up much more then the +Mit will help, and you can get about the same effect of reducing our Mit this way.</blockquote>They don't need to touch brawler mit, it is fine where it is. Despite what some people would have you believe it isn't anywhere close to plate levels and plate tanks are crying about mit while not utilizing their defensive stance mit bonus.</blockquote>You are basically the only one that refutes how close Mitigation really is. But you know what I will go along with it and say sure don't change mitigation.What needs to be changed is removing all damage reduction on abilities.

Talathion

07-20-2011, 05:33 PM

<cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Silzin@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Quabi@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>Brawlers should have more temps, though. Since Xelgad took over, the idea for the class has basically been to give them a ton of temps, so that they can spike their survivability to ridiculous levels at times, but, at other times, their survivability would be relatively low. The up time on those temps is really high now, though, and the baseline survivability for the class is higher than it has ever been, too.Things would probably be a lot more in balance if they just lowered the up time on Brawlers Tenacity (by lowering AA'd duration and/or increasing recast) and then maybe take the mit off the self buffs that was added with DoV. Are you with me, Corydonn?!</blockquote>If you want a place to reduce Mit on the Brawlers i would say it would be better to reduce or remove the +mit in the class and shadows lines that we get seperitly. the gaw Mit that was added will help an under geared brawler stay up much more then the +Mit will help, and you can get about the same effect of reducing our Mit this way.</blockquote>They don't need to touch brawler mit, it is fine where it is. Despite what some people would have you believe it isn't anywhere close to plate levels and plate tanks are crying about mit while not utilizing their defensive stance mit bonus.</blockquote>You are basically the only one that refutes how close Mitigation really is. But you know what I will go along with it and say sure don't change mitigation.What needs to be changed is removing all damage reduction on abilities.</blockquote>You mean how they pretty much broke adrenaline by removing its DR? AND MAKING IT NOT CRIT <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

BChizzle

07-20-2011, 05:37 PM

<cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Silzin@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Quabi@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>Brawlers should have more temps, though. Since Xelgad took over, the idea for the class has basically been to give them a ton of temps, so that they can spike their survivability to ridiculous levels at times, but, at other times, their survivability would be relatively low. The up time on those temps is really high now, though, and the baseline survivability for the class is higher than it has ever been, too.Things would probably be a lot more in balance if they just lowered the up time on Brawlers Tenacity (by lowering AA'd duration and/or increasing recast) and then maybe take the mit off the self buffs that was added with DoV. Are you with me, Corydonn?!</blockquote>If you want a place to reduce Mit on the Brawlers i would say it would be better to reduce or remove the +mit in the class and shadows lines that we get seperitly. the gaw Mit that was added will help an under geared brawler stay up much more then the +Mit will help, and you can get about the same effect of reducing our Mit this way.</blockquote>They don't need to touch brawler mit, it is fine where it is. Despite what some people would have you believe it isn't anywhere close to plate levels and plate tanks are crying about mit while not utilizing their defensive stance mit bonus.</blockquote>You are basically the only one that refutes how close Mitigation really is. But you know what I will go along with it and say sure don't change mitigation.What needs to be changed is removing all damage reduction on abilities.</blockquote>You can't be that dumb. You have already admitted that tanks have a mit advantage already even with a brawler full out defensive and the plate tank in offensive, add 25% to that from your defensive stance and it isn't even close. I mean seriously nobody can be that dumb.

Talathion

07-20-2011, 06:01 PM

a less then -2% Damage reduction (you have more mitigation) from our amazing mitigation advantage is sick bro

BChizzle

07-20-2011, 06:38 PM

<cite>Talathion@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>a less then -2% Damage reduction (you have more mitigation) from our amazing mitigation advantage is sick bro</blockquote>Against a level 90 mob, try figuring out what the difference is on a 98 and get back to me.

Hennyo

07-20-2011, 06:52 PM

While I think most of what Talathion posts is either trolling or highly biased, I do think that berserkers could use a little help with a few things. First off adrenaline could have some of its DR put back, like say 10 or 15 percent, as well as allowing all fighter heals to crit, this one included. Also allowing AoE autos to have some benefit over 100 percent should be considered. As well as also buffing defensive stance on berserkers, but I believe this is a plate tank in general issue, to have it make more of a difference when tanking. Changes like these I think would go a long way to fixing some of the current balance issues tanks have.

Corydonn

07-20-2011, 08:10 PM

<cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Talathion@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>a less then -2% Damage reduction (you have more mitigation) from our amazing mitigation advantage is sick bro</blockquote>Against a level 90 mob, try figuring out what the difference is on a 98 and get back to me.</blockquote>You are trying to argue with someone who doesn't actually play or know how to play the game, Just ignore it.

Bruener

07-20-2011, 08:42 PM

<cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Silzin@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Quabi@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>Brawlers should have more temps, though. Since Xelgad took over, the idea for the class has basically been to give them a ton of temps, so that they can spike their survivability to ridiculous levels at times, but, at other times, their survivability would be relatively low. The up time on those temps is really high now, though, and the baseline survivability for the class is higher than it has ever been, too.Things would probably be a lot more in balance if they just lowered the up time on Brawlers Tenacity (by lowering AA'd duration and/or increasing recast) and then maybe take the mit off the self buffs that was added with DoV. Are you with me, Corydonn?!</blockquote>If you want a place to reduce Mit on the Brawlers i would say it would be better to reduce or remove the +mit in the class and shadows lines that we get seperitly. the gaw Mit that was added will help an under geared brawler stay up much more then the +Mit will help, and you can get about the same effect of reducing our Mit this way.</blockquote>They don't need to touch brawler mit, it is fine where it is. Despite what some people would have you believe it isn't anywhere close to plate levels and plate tanks are crying about mit while not utilizing their defensive stance mit bonus.</blockquote>You are basically the only one that refutes how close Mitigation really is. But you know what I will go along with it and say sure don't change mitigation.What needs to be changed is removing all damage reduction on abilities.</blockquote>You can't be that dumb. You have already admitted that tanks have a mit advantage already even with a brawler full out defensive and the plate tank in offensive, add 25% to that from your defensive stance and it isn't even close. I mean seriously nobody can be that dumb.</blockquote>No, I am not "that" dumb...however you spewwing out a bunch of junk like this really makes you look the part.I admitted that Plate tanks have a mit advantage....I did not state anything about Brawlers going "full out" defensive and plate tanks offensive. A Brawler in Defensive stance will have equal mitigation to a Plate tank in Offensive stance. Neither probably would actually be adorning for +mit since unlike you most tanks understand how little it nets them and how little of a difference it makes. Snap on Defensive stance and as a SK I will net probably 1k more mitigation....yeah, the amount of a single item roughly which is what people see. On raids that mitigation difference nets no specific advantage because as stated Brawlers have other means to "mitigate" the damage. It is easy to look at a parse lets say from a SK tanking and than look at a parse from a Monk tanking and notice that the Monk average hit is lower than what the SK takes. Than it is just as easy to scan over on the parse and see that highest hit for melee is definitely not a higher number on the Monks parse. This is because of damage reduction if you haven't figured it out.So mitigation numbers were brought closer than before, while Damage Reduction is not given out to other Fighters as much as it was to Brawlers because of deceiving feedback claiming that Brawlers needed more to handle spike damage.And, really what makes you look like you have no clue what you are talking about is the fact that Plate fighter Defensive stance gives +15% mit, not 25% (like Brawlers have).The fact is 1k mitigation difference is a drop in the bucket, especially as you stated earlier in this thread that it is the AEs that are the things killing tanks. Damage reduction however is the problem because it more than covers the small gap in mitigation. To top it off Damage reduction is not secluded to Physical damage.

BChizzle

07-20-2011, 08:55 PM

1k more mit is NOT a drop in the bucket, this is where you just completely fail to understand how mitigation works. 1k more mit is amazing at absorbing physical damage and you actually get more than that. You just don't get it and its so simple, if I could add 1k more mit I sure as hell would. Don't cry to me about your classes survivability when you don't even use the tools handed to you.

Talathion

07-20-2011, 09:02 PM

<cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite><blockquote>1k more mit is NOT a drop in the bucket, this is where you just completely fail to understand how mitigation works. 1k more mit is amazing at absorbing physical damage and you actually get more than that. You just don't get it and its so simple, if I could add 1k more mit I sure as hell would. Don't cry to me about your classes survivability when you don't even use the tools handed to you.</blockquote>1k Mitigation after 8k is 0.4% Damage Reduction.Whats better, 0.4% Damage Reduction, or 30% Damage Reduction+an 16k AE Ward?But what do I know I barley know how to play at all and I stink <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

BChizzle

07-20-2011, 09:51 PM

<cite>Talathion@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite><blockquote>1k more mit is NOT a drop in the bucket, this is where you just completely fail to understand how mitigation works. 1k more mit is amazing at absorbing physical damage and you actually get more than that. You just don't get it and its so simple, if I could add 1k more mit I sure as hell would. Don't cry to me about your classes survivability when you don't even use the tools handed to you.</blockquote>1k Mitigation after 8k is 0.4% Damage Reduction.Whats better, 0.4% Damage Reduction, or 30% Damage Reduction+an 16k AE Ward?But what do I know I barley know how to play at all and I stink <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" /></blockquote>Keep pulling completely inaccurate numbers out of the air.

Silzin

07-20-2011, 10:42 PM

<cite>Talathion@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite><blockquote>1k more mit is NOT a drop in the bucket, this is where you just completely fail to understand how mitigation works. 1k more mit is amazing at absorbing physical damage and you actually get more than that. You just don't get it and its so simple, if I could add 1k more mit I sure as hell would. Don't cry to me about your classes survivability when you don't even use the tools handed to you.</blockquote>1k Mitigation after 8k is 0.4% Damage Reduction.Whats better, 0.4% Damage Reduction, or 30% Damage Reduction+an 16k AE Ward?But what do I know I barley know how to play at all and I stink <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" /></blockquote>Agented a lvl 90 Solo mob +~1k mit takes me from 66.5% to 69.1%. i know that i a much larger difference against a lvl 98 Epic. but the calculation in complicated i dont need to do it to prove my point. Talathion take your own statement to hart and just stop making yourself look worse.

Boli32

07-21-2011, 06:00 AM

<cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote>The fact is 1k mitigation difference is a drop in the bucket, especially as you stated earlier in this thread that it is the AEs that are the things killing tanks. Damage reduction however is the problem because it more than covers the small gap in mitigation. To top it off Damage reduction is not secluded to Physical damage.</blockquote>Actually dunno about the other classes but the Damage reduction I get is only for PHYSICAL attacks only; Spell Damage reduction is another stat altogether.

Dorieon

07-21-2011, 07:51 AM

<cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote>No, I am not "that" dumb...however you spewwing out a bunch of junk like this really makes you look the part.I admitted that Plate tanks have a mit advantage....I did not state anything about Brawlers going "full out" defensive and plate tanks offensive. A Brawler in Defensive stance will have equal mitigation to a Plate tank in Offensive stance. Neither probably would actually be adorning for +mit since unlike you most tanks understand how little it nets them and how little of a difference it makes. Snap on Defensive stance and as a SK I will net probably 1k more mitigation....yeah, the amount of a single item roughly which is what people see. On raids that mitigation difference nets no specific advantage because as stated Brawlers have other means to "mitigate" the damage. It is easy to look at a parse lets say from a SK tanking and than look at a parse from a Monk tanking and notice that the Monk average hit is lower than what the SK takes. Than it is just as easy to scan over on the parse and see that highest hit for melee is definitely not a higher number on the Monks parse. This is because of damage reduction if you haven't figured it out.So mitigation numbers were brought closer than before, while Damage Reduction is not given out to other Fighters as much as it was to Brawlers because of deceiving feedback claiming that Brawlers needed more to handle spike damage.And, really what makes you look like you have no clue what you are talking about is the fact that Plate fighter Defensive stance gives +15% mit, not 25% (like Brawlers have).The fact is 1k mitigation difference is a drop in the bucket, especially as you stated earlier in this thread that it is the AEs that are the things killing tanks. Damage reduction however is the problem because it more than covers the small gap in mitigation. To top it off Damage reduction is not secluded to Physical damage.</blockquote>1. Brawlers do not and can not get more mit than an equally geared plate tank in D stance. The entire thread is nonsense due to the title. If your D stance is busted, try and fix it.2. 1k mit is huge. If it wasn't then you wouldn't have brawlers speccing for 250mit like it was crack. Just because you don't appreciate it doesn't make it worthless. What adorn do you have on your chest slot btw?3. 15% of plate armor is roughly the same or more as 25% of leather armor. So stop acting like our D stance gives us more than yours. 25% of 5000= 1250 15% of 8500= 1275 numbers are evil4. I'm with Vinka, stop trying to lump Monks and Bruisers into a super class so your arguements sound better. Learn the differences between the two and you might actually make a decent arguement at some point.5. Brawlers are tanks duele, not emergency tanks. Just plain tanks. Get used to it. Wrap your head around it and accept the competition. It might actually make you better.

Talathion

07-21-2011, 12:28 PM

<cite>Dorieon@Guk wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote>No, I am not "that" dumb...however you spewwing out a bunch of junk like this really makes you look the part.I admitted that Plate tanks have a mit advantage....I did not state anything about Brawlers going "full out" defensive and plate tanks offensive. A Brawler in Defensive stance will have equal mitigation to a Plate tank in Offensive stance. Neither probably would actually be adorning for +mit since unlike you most tanks understand how little it nets them and how little of a difference it makes. Snap on Defensive stance and as a SK I will net probably 1k more mitigation....yeah, the amount of a single item roughly which is what people see. On raids that mitigation difference nets no specific advantage because as stated Brawlers have other means to "mitigate" the damage. It is easy to look at a parse lets say from a SK tanking and than look at a parse from a Monk tanking and notice that the Monk average hit is lower than what the SK takes. Than it is just as easy to scan over on the parse and see that highest hit for melee is definitely not a higher number on the Monks parse. This is because of damage reduction if you haven't figured it out.So mitigation numbers were brought closer than before, while Damage Reduction is not given out to other Fighters as much as it was to Brawlers because of deceiving feedback claiming that Brawlers needed more to handle spike damage.And, really what makes you look like you have no clue what you are talking about is the fact that Plate fighter Defensive stance gives +15% mit, not 25% (like Brawlers have).The fact is 1k mitigation difference is a drop in the bucket, especially as you stated earlier in this thread that it is the AEs that are the things killing tanks. Damage reduction however is the problem because it more than covers the small gap in mitigation. To top it off Damage reduction is not secluded to Physical damage.</blockquote>1. Brawlers do not and can not get more mit than an equally geared plate tank in D stance. The entire thread is nonsense due to the title. If your D stance is busted, try and fix it.2. 1k mit is huge. If it wasn't then you wouldn't have brawlers speccing for 250mit like it was crack. Just because you don't appreciate it doesn't make it worthless. What adorn do you have on your chest slot btw?3. 15% of plate armor is roughly the same or more as 25% of leather armor. So stop acting like our D stance gives us more than yours. 25% of 5000= 1250 15% of 8500= 1275 numbers are evil4. I'm with Vinka, stop trying to lump Monks and Bruisers into a super class so your arguements sound better. Learn the differences between the two and you might actually make a decent arguement at some point.5. Brawlers are tanks duele, not emergency tanks. Just plain tanks. Get used to it. Wrap your head around it and accept the competition. It might actually make you better.</blockquote>Wrong, if they are grouped with a healer who gives there mitigation buff to them, the extra 10% will take you near plate if not a little over.

circusgirl

07-21-2011, 01:03 PM

<cite>Talathion@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Dorieon@Guk wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote>No, I am not "that" dumb...however you spewwing out a bunch of junk like this really makes you look the part.I admitted that Plate tanks have a mit advantage....I did not state anything about Brawlers going "full out" defensive and plate tanks offensive. A Brawler in Defensive stance will have equal mitigation to a Plate tank in Offensive stance. Neither probably would actually be adorning for +mit since unlike you most tanks understand how little it nets them and how little of a difference it makes. Snap on Defensive stance and as a SK I will net probably 1k more mitigation....yeah, the amount of a single item roughly which is what people see. On raids that mitigation difference nets no specific advantage because as stated Brawlers have other means to "mitigate" the damage. It is easy to look at a parse lets say from a SK tanking and than look at a parse from a Monk tanking and notice that the Monk average hit is lower than what the SK takes. Than it is just as easy to scan over on the parse and see that highest hit for melee is definitely not a higher number on the Monks parse. This is because of damage reduction if you haven't figured it out.So mitigation numbers were brought closer than before, while Damage Reduction is not given out to other Fighters as much as it was to Brawlers because of deceiving feedback claiming that Brawlers needed more to handle spike damage.And, really what makes you look like you have no clue what you are talking about is the fact that Plate fighter Defensive stance gives +15% mit, not 25% (like Brawlers have).The fact is 1k mitigation difference is a drop in the bucket, especially as you stated earlier in this thread that it is the AEs that are the things killing tanks. Damage reduction however is the problem because it more than covers the small gap in mitigation. To top it off Damage reduction is not secluded to Physical damage.</blockquote>1. Brawlers do not and can not get more mit than an equally geared plate tank in D stance. The entire thread is nonsense due to the title. If your D stance is busted, try and fix it.2. 1k mit is huge. If it wasn't then you wouldn't have brawlers speccing for 250mit like it was crack. Just because you don't appreciate it doesn't make it worthless. What adorn do you have on your chest slot btw?3. 15% of plate armor is roughly the same or more as 25% of leather armor. So stop acting like our D stance gives us more than yours. 25% of 5000= 1250 15% of 8500= 1275 numbers are evil4. I'm with Vinka, stop trying to lump Monks and Bruisers into a super class so your arguements sound better. Learn the differences between the two and you might actually make a decent arguement at some point.5. Brawlers are tanks duele, not emergency tanks. Just plain tanks. Get used to it. Wrap your head around it and accept the competition. It might actually make you better.</blockquote>Wrong, if they are grouped with a healer who gives there mitigation buff to them, the extra 10% will take you near plate if not a little over.</blockquote>Yes, and if that plate tank groups with the same healer, then THEY can get extra mitigation too!You can't compare a buffed brawler to an unbuffed plate tank, that's absolutely ridiculous.

Kimber

07-21-2011, 05:19 PM

Its what he does I would have thought ya'll would have figured that out and let this die out around page 5 or so

LygerT

07-21-2011, 07:25 PM

but there's no other threads going..

Talathion

07-21-2011, 11:05 PM

<cite>Vinka@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Talathion@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Dorieon@Guk wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote>No, I am not "that" dumb...however you spewwing out a bunch of junk like this really makes you look the part.I admitted that Plate tanks have a mit advantage....I did not state anything about Brawlers going "full out" defensive and plate tanks offensive. A Brawler in Defensive stance will have equal mitigation to a Plate tank in Offensive stance. Neither probably would actually be adorning for +mit since unlike you most tanks understand how little it nets them and how little of a difference it makes. Snap on Defensive stance and as a SK I will net probably 1k more mitigation....yeah, the amount of a single item roughly which is what people see. On raids that mitigation difference nets no specific advantage because as stated Brawlers have other means to "mitigate" the damage. It is easy to look at a parse lets say from a SK tanking and than look at a parse from a Monk tanking and notice that the Monk average hit is lower than what the SK takes. Than it is just as easy to scan over on the parse and see that highest hit for melee is definitely not a higher number on the Monks parse. This is because of damage reduction if you haven't figured it out.So mitigation numbers were brought closer than before, while Damage Reduction is not given out to other Fighters as much as it was to Brawlers because of deceiving feedback claiming that Brawlers needed more to handle spike damage.And, really what makes you look like you have no clue what you are talking about is the fact that Plate fighter Defensive stance gives +15% mit, not 25% (like Brawlers have).The fact is 1k mitigation difference is a drop in the bucket, especially as you stated earlier in this thread that it is the AEs that are the things killing tanks. Damage reduction however is the problem because it more than covers the small gap in mitigation. To top it off Damage reduction is not secluded to Physical damage.</blockquote>1. Brawlers do not and can not get more mit than an equally geared plate tank in D stance. The entire thread is nonsense due to the title. If your D stance is busted, try and fix it.2. 1k mit is huge. If it wasn't then you wouldn't have brawlers speccing for 250mit like it was crack. Just because you don't appreciate it doesn't make it worthless. What adorn do you have on your chest slot btw?3. 15% of plate armor is roughly the same or more as 25% of leather armor. So stop acting like our D stance gives us more than yours. 25% of 5000= 1250 15% of 8500= 1275 numbers are evil4. I'm with Vinka, stop trying to lump Monks and Bruisers into a super class so your arguements sound better. Learn the differences between the two and you might actually make a decent arguement at some point.5. Brawlers are tanks duele, not emergency tanks. Just plain tanks. Get used to it. Wrap your head around it and accept the competition. It might actually make you better.</blockquote>Wrong, if they are grouped with a healer who gives there mitigation buff to them, the extra 10% will take you near plate if not a little over.</blockquote>Yes, and if that plate tank groups with the same healer, then THEY can get extra mitigation too!You can't compare a buffed brawler to an unbuffed plate tank, that's absolutely ridiculous.</blockquote>Buffed Brawler: About 8400 Mit w/ my defiler.Buffed Plate Tank: About 8600 Mit w/ my defiler.

Dorieon

07-22-2011, 02:06 AM

<cite>Talathion@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Vinka@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Talathion@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Dorieon@Guk wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote>No, I am not "that" dumb...however you spewwing out a bunch of junk like this really makes you look the part.I admitted that Plate tanks have a mit advantage....I did not state anything about Brawlers going "full out" defensive and plate tanks offensive. A Brawler in Defensive stance will have equal mitigation to a Plate tank in Offensive stance. Neither probably would actually be adorning for +mit since unlike you most tanks understand how little it nets them and how little of a difference it makes. Snap on Defensive stance and as a SK I will net probably 1k more mitigation....yeah, the amount of a single item roughly which is what people see. On raids that mitigation difference nets no specific advantage because as stated Brawlers have other means to "mitigate" the damage. It is easy to look at a parse lets say from a SK tanking and than look at a parse from a Monk tanking and notice that the Monk average hit is lower than what the SK takes. Than it is just as easy to scan over on the parse and see that highest hit for melee is definitely not a higher number on the Monks parse. This is because of damage reduction if you haven't figured it out.So mitigation numbers were brought closer than before, while Damage Reduction is not given out to other Fighters as much as it was to Brawlers because of deceiving feedback claiming that Brawlers needed more to handle spike damage.And, really what makes you look like you have no clue what you are talking about is the fact that Plate fighter Defensive stance gives +15% mit, not 25% (like Brawlers have).The fact is 1k mitigation difference is a drop in the bucket, especially as you stated earlier in this thread that it is the AEs that are the things killing tanks. Damage reduction however is the problem because it more than covers the small gap in mitigation. To top it off Damage reduction is not secluded to Physical damage.</blockquote>1. Brawlers do not and can not get more mit than an equally geared plate tank in D stance. The entire thread is nonsense due to the title. If your D stance is busted, try and fix it.2. 1k mit is huge. If it wasn't then you wouldn't have brawlers speccing for 250mit like it was crack. Just because you don't appreciate it doesn't make it worthless. What adorn do you have on your chest slot btw?3. 15% of plate armor is roughly the same or more as 25% of leather armor. So stop acting like our D stance gives us more than yours. 25% of 5000= 1250 15% of 8500= 1275 numbers are evil4. I'm with Vinka, stop trying to lump Monks and Bruisers into a super class so your arguements sound better. Learn the differences between the two and you might actually make a decent arguement at some point.5. Brawlers are tanks duele, not emergency tanks. Just plain tanks. Get used to it. Wrap your head around it and accept the competition. It might actually make you better.</blockquote>Wrong, if they are grouped with a healer who gives there mitigation buff to them, the extra 10% will take you near plate if not a little over.</blockquote>Yes, and if that plate tank groups with the same healer, then THEY can get extra mitigation too!You can't compare a buffed brawler to an unbuffed plate tank, that's absolutely ridiculous.</blockquote>Buffed Brawler: About 8400 Mit w/ my defiler.Buffed Plate Tank: About 8600 Mit w/ my defiler. </blockquote>Not equally geared and not both in D stance.

Talathion

07-22-2011, 01:17 PM

<cite>Dorieon@Guk wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Talathion@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Vinka@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Talathion@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Dorieon@Guk wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote>No, I am not "that" dumb...however you spewwing out a bunch of junk like this really makes you look the part.I admitted that Plate tanks have a mit advantage....I did not state anything about Brawlers going "full out" defensive and plate tanks offensive. A Brawler in Defensive stance will have equal mitigation to a Plate tank in Offensive stance. Neither probably would actually be adorning for +mit since unlike you most tanks understand how little it nets them and how little of a difference it makes. Snap on Defensive stance and as a SK I will net probably 1k more mitigation....yeah, the amount of a single item roughly which is what people see. On raids that mitigation difference nets no specific advantage because as stated Brawlers have other means to "mitigate" the damage. It is easy to look at a parse lets say from a SK tanking and than look at a parse from a Monk tanking and notice that the Monk average hit is lower than what the SK takes. Than it is just as easy to scan over on the parse and see that highest hit for melee is definitely not a higher number on the Monks parse. This is because of damage reduction if you haven't figured it out.So mitigation numbers were brought closer than before, while Damage Reduction is not given out to other Fighters as much as it was to Brawlers because of deceiving feedback claiming that Brawlers needed more to handle spike damage.And, really what makes you look like you have no clue what you are talking about is the fact that Plate fighter Defensive stance gives +15% mit, not 25% (like Brawlers have).The fact is 1k mitigation difference is a drop in the bucket, especially as you stated earlier in this thread that it is the AEs that are the things killing tanks. Damage reduction however is the problem because it more than covers the small gap in mitigation. To top it off Damage reduction is not secluded to Physical damage.</blockquote>1. Brawlers do not and can not get more mit than an equally geared plate tank in D stance. The entire thread is nonsense due to the title. If your D stance is busted, try and fix it.2. 1k mit is huge. If it wasn't then you wouldn't have brawlers speccing for 250mit like it was crack. Just because you don't appreciate it doesn't make it worthless. What adorn do you have on your chest slot btw?3. 15% of plate armor is roughly the same or more as 25% of leather armor. So stop acting like our D stance gives us more than yours. 25% of 5000= 1250 15% of 8500= 1275 numbers are evil4. I'm with Vinka, stop trying to lump Monks and Bruisers into a super class so your arguements sound better. Learn the differences between the two and you might actually make a decent arguement at some point.5. Brawlers are tanks duele, not emergency tanks. Just plain tanks. Get used to it. Wrap your head around it and accept the competition. It might actually make you better.</blockquote>Wrong, if they are grouped with a healer who gives there mitigation buff to them, the extra 10% will take you near plate if not a little over.</blockquote>Yes, and if that plate tank groups with the same healer, then THEY can get extra mitigation too!You can't compare a buffed brawler to an unbuffed plate tank, that's absolutely ridiculous.</blockquote>Buffed Brawler: About 8400 Mit w/ my defiler.Buffed Plate Tank: About 8600 Mit w/ my defiler. </blockquote>Not equally geared and not both in D stance.</blockquote>Equally geared in Rygorr Armor, but the Plate guy was in Off Stance. (because hes forced to be).Defensive Stance offers no benefit for crusaders besides extra stamina, and if your a warrior it offers no benefit period.

circusgirl

07-22-2011, 02:26 PM

Except for all that mitigation you're complaining about.

Talathion

07-22-2011, 05:40 PM

<cite>Vinka@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>Except for all that mitigation you're complaining about.</blockquote>Vinka, you serious think anything after 8500+ Mitigation offers ANY benefit besides other things you could stack/get?Your Class abilitys have so much damage reduction its rediculious.

Kimber

07-22-2011, 06:16 PM

<cite>Talathion@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Vinka@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>Except for all that mitigation you're complaining about.</blockquote>Vinka, you serious think anything after 8500+ Mitigation offers ANY benefit besides other things you could stack/get?Your Class abilitys have so much damage reduction its rediculious.</blockquote>So lets see you are complaining that brawlers who have for a long time been on the short end of the mitigation stick have finaly caught up with the rest of the tanks. Nice........I am not saying that brawlers are not sitting pretty right now cause they are. A few years ago it was Guards then Crusaders ( ok more SK than Pally but they were both sitting rather nice ). It is the cycle we have soon Guards will prolly be on top again.As for your coments about Def stance being usless. I really do not know what to say other than you realize that tanks are not supposed to be DPS We have an Off stance to increase our DPS for when we are not tanking and be usfull to the raid or group. I am not saying that everyone should be tanking in Def stance it is the logical choice howerver if you have the zone out geared or its trivial content by all means use Off stance but if you are dieing to mobs and running Off stance as a tank then you might want to try Def stance and the rest of the raid should then watch thier threat. Threat is everyones responsibility not just the tank. I find it amazing that after all the posts and differant ways it has been explained that you still do not understand this simple concept. I guess some people just want to be OP or FOTM and not balance the game for all./thread

Talathion

07-22-2011, 06:44 PM

<cite>Kimber@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Talathion@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Vinka@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>Except for all that mitigation you're complaining about.</blockquote>Vinka, you serious think anything after 8500+ Mitigation offers ANY benefit besides other things you could stack/get?Your Class abilitys have so much damage reduction its rediculious.</blockquote>So lets see you are complaining that brawlers who have for a long time been on the short end of the mitigation stick have finaly caught up with the rest of the tanks. Nice........I am not saying that brawlers are not sitting pretty right now cause they are. A few years ago it was Guards then Crusaders ( ok more SK than Pally but they were both sitting rather nice ). It is the cycle we have soon Guards will prolly be on top again.As for your coments about Def stance being usless. I really do not know what to say other than you realize that tanks are not supposed to be DPS We have an Off stance to increase our DPS for when we are not tanking and be usfull to the raid or group. I am not saying that everyone should be tanking in Def stance it is the logical choice howerver if you have the zone out geared or its trivial content by all means use Off stance but if you are dieing to mobs and running Off stance as a tank then you might want to try Def stance and the rest of the raid should then watch thier threat. Threat is everyones responsibility not just the tank. I find it amazing that after all the posts and differant ways it has been explained that you still do not understand this simple concept. I guess some people just want to be OP or FOTM and not balance the game for all./thread</blockquote>You who claim to be a berserker or have one, should "I HOPE" know why we do not use our defensive stance.

LygerT

07-22-2011, 07:35 PM

as with anything there is a method of approach.solo = offensive, anything else you will likely die quicker and hurt the mob less in the long run your health for the mobs health. for heroic named example you are much more likely to survive by burning the [Removed for Content] out of it versus trying to survive through it.both grouping and raiding you can use defensive but require hate buffs to be able to use it, if you have no transfers/buffs then offensive will barely keep you aggro off DD classes. the focus is to be as offensive as possible to deal damage as fast as possible without dying, raid tanks often use defensive including zerkers. if you raid without buffs to hold aggro then your raid is faulty, not the stance.the only valid point is that the zerk defensive stance is one of the most worthless of all tanks, so why use it at all? to help stay alive, even if it cuts your DPS in half, if you survive and maintain aggro then you did your job. sure it won't help much, but sometimes you have to use everything at your disposal which is how ALL raid guilds down mobs their first time.

Talathion

07-22-2011, 07:43 PM

<cite>Lygerr@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote>as with anything there is a method of approach.solo = offensive, anything else you will likely die quicker and hurt the mob less in the long run your health for the mobs health. for heroic named example you are much more likely to survive by burning the [Removed for Content] out of it versus trying to survive through it.both grouping and raiding you can use defensive but require hate buffs to be able to use it, if you have no transfers/buffs then offensive will barely keep you aggro off DD classes. the focus is to be as offensive as possible to deal damage as fast as possible without dying, raid tanks often use defensive including zerkers. if you raid without buffs to hold aggro then your raid is faulty, not the stance.the only valid point is that the zerk defensive stance is one of the most worthless of all tanks, so why use it at all? to help stay alive, even if it cuts your DPS in half, if you survive and maintain aggro then you did your job. sure it won't help much, but sometimes you have to use everything at your disposal which is how ALL raid guilds down mobs their first time.</blockquote><img src="http://img146.imageshack.us/img146/5549/64133453.png" />Zerker's Needs 5% Base AvoidanceZerker's Needs 218.2 Stamina.Defense and Parry is worthless.Why use defensive stance if it DOES not provide my class protection? I get more protection from procs from hitting the mob then defensive stance provides.Losing Accuracy Sucks.When that happens (they buff defensive stance to be more in line with other classes) I just might use Defensive Stance, otherwise it stays at (apprentice I) forever.

Kimber

07-22-2011, 08:04 PM

<cite>Talathion@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Lygerr@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote>as with anything there is a method of approach.solo = offensive, anything else you will likely die quicker and hurt the mob less in the long run your health for the mobs health. for heroic named example you are much more likely to survive by burning the [Removed for Content] out of it versus trying to survive through it.both grouping and raiding you can use defensive but require hate buffs to be able to use it, if you have no transfers/buffs then offensive will barely keep you aggro off DD classes. the focus is to be as offensive as possible to deal damage as fast as possible without dying, raid tanks often use defensive including zerkers. if you raid without buffs to hold aggro then your raid is faulty, not the stance.the only valid point is that the zerk defensive stance is one of the most worthless of all tanks, so why use it at all? to help stay alive, even if it cuts your DPS in half, if you survive and maintain aggro then you did your job. sure it won't help much, but sometimes you have to use everything at your disposal which is how ALL raid guilds down mobs their first time.</blockquote><img src="http://img146.imageshack.us/img146/5549/64133453.png" />Zerker's Needs 5% Base AvoidanceZerker's Needs 218.2 Stamina.Defense and Parry is worthless.Why use defensive stance if it DOES not provide my class protection? I get more protection from procs from hitting the mob then defensive stance provides.Losing Accuracy Sucks.When that happens (they buff defensive stance to be more in line with other classes) I just might use Defensive Stance, otherwise it stays at (apprentice I) forever.</blockquote>Defense and Parry are not worthless check ACT some timeIf you really dont like losing the accuracy ( none of us do but to live some times you need to ) you can always spec down the Wis line you would have to drop the one of the other ( let me see if I remember the words ) worthless lines as you put it since I seem to remember you saying you did not like end line str or end line stam as they did nothing for the class nm that Str will keep you alive a lil longer and end lin Stam will let you spam click Adren a few more times since you seem to think you have to use it every time its up ( from what you said ) and run your self out of power.You know what you said up there for some one that claims to have a zerk I should know why we dont use Def stance. For someone that claims to be a tank and raid I would hope YOU WHO CLAIM TO BE A TANK would know how to optimize your surviablity for your raid to clear content by using everything at your disposal including Def stance.

Talathion

07-22-2011, 08:19 PM

<cite>Kimber@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Talathion@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Lygerr@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote>as with anything there is a method of approach.solo = offensive, anything else you will likely die quicker and hurt the mob less in the long run your health for the mobs health. for heroic named example you are much more likely to survive by burning the [Removed for Content] out of it versus trying to survive through it.both grouping and raiding you can use defensive but require hate buffs to be able to use it, if you have no transfers/buffs then offensive will barely keep you aggro off DD classes. the focus is to be as offensive as possible to deal damage as fast as possible without dying, raid tanks often use defensive including zerkers. if you raid without buffs to hold aggro then your raid is faulty, not the stance.the only valid point is that the zerk defensive stance is one of the most worthless of all tanks, so why use it at all? to help stay alive, even if it cuts your DPS in half, if you survive and maintain aggro then you did your job. sure it won't help much, but sometimes you have to use everything at your disposal which is how ALL raid guilds down mobs their first time.</blockquote><img src="http://img146.imageshack.us/img146/5549/64133453.png" />Zerker's Needs 5% Base AvoidanceZerker's Needs 218.2 Stamina.Defense and Parry is worthless.Why use defensive stance if it DOES not provide my class protection? I get more protection from procs from hitting the mob then defensive stance provides.Losing Accuracy Sucks.When that happens (they buff defensive stance to be more in line with other classes) I just might use Defensive Stance, otherwise it stays at (apprentice I) forever.</blockquote>Defense and Parry are not worthless check ACT some timeIf you really dont like losing the accuracy ( none of us do but to live some times you need to ) you can always spec down the Wis line you would have to drop the one of the other ( let me see if I remember the words ) worthless lines as you put it since I seem to remember you saying you did not like end line str or end line stam as they did nothing for the class nm that Str will keep you alive a lil longer and end lin Stam will let you spam click Adren a few more times since you seem to think you have to use it every time its up ( from what you said ) and run your self out of power.You know what you said up there for some one that claims to have a zerk I should know why we dont use Def stance. For someone that claims to be a tank and raid I would hope YOU WHO CLAIM TO BE A TANK would know how to optimize your surviablity for your raid to clear content by using everything at your disposal including Def stance.</blockquote>Waste 22 Points in AA lines to get a worthless aa ability, or get Ethereal Adornment of Weaponry... hmm.. hard choice!Might I suggest using Defense/Parry against Raid or Drundar Mobs? you will find it quite worthless.

Kimber

07-22-2011, 08:55 PM

Ahh so the other lines are good to use now? You said not long ago that they were worthless........I am pretty sure they are not worthless however with your track record of calling something worthless and changing your mind after you try it and find out that its not I think I will leave it at that......../thread

Talathion

07-22-2011, 10:19 PM

<cite>Kimber@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>Ahh so the other lines are good to use now? You said not long ago that they were worthless........I am pretty sure they are not worthless however with your track record of calling something worthless and changing your mind after you try it and find out that its not I think I will leave it at that......../thread</blockquote>Most of our Endlines are worthless, except Dragoon's Reflexes, Relentless Assault.

LygerT

07-23-2011, 06:12 PM

they're not worthless.. but also not as good as they should be considering what many other classes have been given recently.

aislynn00

07-27-2011, 11:17 AM

<cite>Kimber@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>Defense and Parry are not worthless check ACT some time</blockquote>The Defense and Parry skills increase my avoidance by precisely zero percent vs any current tier raid boss. Solely uncontested avoidance matters. That's what ACT tells me.