If Mages and Ect get spell autoattack, are you going to lower they're spells damage?

[Talathion]

<p>Or Raise Damage of Melee?</p><p>Just a concern.</p>

[Morghus]

<p>No reason to, mage autoattack does not deal near as much as even a priest's autoattack. Currently, with around 215 crit bonus and 5000 int in a raid, I hit for max 8 - 15k or so with a HM weapon.</p>

[Talathion]

<p>Thats still alot, even if it doens't seem like it, since its not interruptable like melee combat and probably hits more.</p>

[Morghus]

<p><cite>Talathion@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Thats still alot, even if it doens't seem like it, since its not interruptable like melee combat and probably hits more.</p></blockquote><p>Mage weapons currently have the same 6.0 delay as hard hitting scout weapons, and hit for that low amount of damage with my stats. Also, mages have next to nothing in the way of flurry, multi-attack, aoe auto, and dps mod. If anything, it will finally equalize the amount of procs mages get compared to melee classes.</p>

[LardLord]

<p>As long as spell auto does no more damage for mages than melee auto does for them, it should be fine.</p>

[Talathion]

<p>They don't have to time they're autoattacks though.</p>

[Silzin]

they are taking about giving your a weapon that can go in your ranged weapon slot and will give your a significant ranged attach just like melee pplz auto attach. they will also be giving you are MA, Flury, DPS mob, Hast, etc... it sounds like to me it will be more then just 8-15k but the melee dps mob and hast are being uncapped so we will be doing alot more dmg with our auto attach, and weapon skills will add to CA damage. they are changing several factors on damage output so there is no telling atm.

[LardLord]

<p>Yeah, on second thought, there will still be major problems eventually. </p><p>Basically, on live right now (or at least at DoV launch): 1 potency (mage) = 1 potency (scout) + 1 MA (scout)</p><p>When spell auto launches: 1 MA (scout) >>> 1 MA (mage), since mages have lower auto-attack multiplier and DPS/haste buffs, ect.</p><p>Over time, mages will gain those stats, and if 1 MA (scout) is made to equal 1 MA (mage), mages will do a lot more DPS than scouts, since they get more DPS from 1 potency.  So in order to futureproof the system, you'd probably want to try to make those stats equally valuable for casters and melee...rather than worrying about imbalances occuring slowly as people get new gear and AAs.</p>

[theriatis]

<p>Just scrap that Idea with the Autoattack.</p><p>If i wanted autoattack, i would play a Scout.</p><p>Regards, a Wizard.</p>

[Lethe5683]

<p><cite>theriatis wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Just scrap that Idea with the Autoattack.</p><p>If i wanted autoattack, i would play a Scout.</p><p>Regards, a Wizard.</p></blockquote><p>+1</p>

[Trensharo]

<p><cite>theriatis wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Just scrap that Idea with the Autoattack.</p><p>If i wanted autoattack, i would play a Scout.</p><p>Regards, a Wizard.</p></blockquote><p>I agree with this.</p>

[Davngr1]

<p>i have to agree. this mage auto attack will do nothing but further remove unique gameplay. </p><p> just scrap this idea it's nonsense.</p>

[Odys]

<p>Wondering if we are leading back to original Eq1. Playing a scout in Eq1 was certainly triival and frustrating.</p><p>With the raise of MA, 70% of the dps of scouts now come from auto attack. I m quite sure than many of them are simply half AFk in raids and instances.</p><p>With spell auto attack mages may now dream to be able to AFK too.</p><p>Tanks are already almost afk (due to hate mod and transfert most don't even taunt or use any skill).</p><p>By the end of the year only priests will still play, but i m sure that more form of passive heals and cures will be added.</p><p>By the end of 2012 we will all push one button, we will all be Eq1 scouts.</p>

[Banditman]

<p>In terms of balance, there is no need to change anything with the addition of mage auto attack.  When they add this feature, they are also uncapping DPS mod and rolling Haste over into Flurry for melee players.</p><p>The only real change here will be that proc rates between Spell Casters and Melee will finally equalize.</p>

[Zabjade]

<p><span style="color: #00cc00;">From what I hear it's going to be connected to their ranged weapons they they are getting, I could be wrong Still trying to find out all of the info.</span></p>

[Banditman]

<p>The information I've read says that there is a new "kind" of item coming that will go in the ranged slot for Mages / Caster Priests.  We can already equip Symbols there, but this will be something of a different sort.</p>

[thegriss]

<p><cite>Gorock@Storms wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Wondering if we are leading back to original Eq1. Playing a scout in Eq1 was certainly triival and frustrating.</p><p>With the raise of MA, 70% of the dps of scouts now come from auto attack. I m quite sure than many of them are simply half AFk in raids and instances.</p><p>With spell auto attack mages may now dream to be able to AFK too.</p><p>Tanks are already almost afk (due to hate mod and transfert most don't even taunt or use any skill).</p><p>By the end of the year only priests will still play, but i m sure that more form of passive heals and cures will be added.</p><p>By the end of 2012 we will all push one button, we will all be Eq1 scouts.</p></blockquote><p>Nah when discovery comes out priest wont be around much either... Mercs inc <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/e78feac27fa924c4d0ad6cf5819f3554.gif" border="0" /> will be a very sad time for EQ2</p>

[LardLord]

<p><cite>Banditman wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>In terms of balance, there is no need to change anything with the addition of mage auto attack.  When they add this feature, they are also uncapping DPS mod and rolling Haste over into Flurry for melee players.</p><p>The only real change here will be that proc rates between Spell Casters and Melee will finally equalize.</p></blockquote><p>That's what I thought at first too, but it won't stay that way forever.  DPS/haste and I think soon even MA will all be on steep diminishing returns curves, so the damage from mage auto-attack will approach the damage from scout auto-attack (sooner or later), while the damage from spells will continue to be higher than the damage from combat arts.</p><p><strong>EDIT:</strong> I strongly agree with the "just scrap it" sentiment, but it might even be better if they just didn't emphasize or itemize for it at all and left it to do practically no DPS.  That way it would not really do anything besides equalize proc rates.</p>

[Gaige]

<p><cite>Banditman wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>When they add this feature, they are also uncapping DPS mod and rolling Haste over into Flurry for melee players.</p></blockquote><p>Not really.  Every 200 haste over the cap is 1% flurry.  Likewise with DPS mod.</p>

[Silzin]

<p><cite>Gaige wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Banditman wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>When they add this feature, they are also uncapping DPS mod and rolling Haste over into Flurry for melee players.</p></blockquote><p>Not really.  Every 200 haste over the cap is 1% flurry.  Likewise with DPS mod.</p></blockquote><p></p><p >I have not hurd any one say anything about real amounts for the Hast to Flurry amount or the new curve on DPS mob.... where did u get this numbers?  Are you sure u are not makig them up?</p>

[Banditman]

<p>I for one am looking forward to it.  Looking for more CB and Potency is really all a Mage has to look for these days, and quite frankly, that's awful boring.</p><p>If they create balance issues, they'll have to fix them.  That's in their court.  Right now, Mages are up against a wall.  They have absolutely nothing to strive for.  Yea, they will get CB and Potency, just like melee, but other than that?  Jack and crap.</p>

[LardLord]

<p><cite>Banditman wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I for one am looking forward to it.  Looking for more CB and Potency is really all a Mage has to look for these days, and quite frankly, that's awful boring.</p><p>If they create balance issues, they'll have to fix them.  That's in their court.  Right now, Mages are up against a wall.  They have absolutely nothing to strive for.  Yea, they will get CB and Potency, just like melee, but other than that?  Jack and crap.</p></blockquote><p>Other than that you can get ability mod and spell double attack.  Just like scouts can get ability mod and multi-attack.</p><p><strong>EDIT:</strong> And Flurry doesn't count...1 Flurry = 3 MA...they should have merged those stats because they function so similarly.  Either that, or, if people like Flurry, they should create new stats like Super Potency and Super Crit Bonus where 1 Super Stat = 3 normal stats.</p>

[Davngr1]

<p><cite>Quabi@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><strong></strong>I strongly agree with the "just scrap it" sentiment, but it might even be better if they just didn't emphasize or itemize for it at all and left it to do practically no DPS.  That way it would not really do anything besides equalize proc rates.</p></blockquote><p> this works, just add a range auto.  </p><p>  at any rate this will never be balanced if the mage auto actually does a good amount of damage since mages won't have to be with in aoe distance to deal all most 100% of their damage then.  </p><p> meaning mage will be able to take advantage of no joust, no aoe game play like ranger but with much higher spell/ability damage.</p>

[Banditman]

<p>Ability mod is no longer itemized for, except as a set bonus.  I don't think I've seen SDA itemized either, except as part of a set bonus or available as an adorn which fits on only ONE slot.  While SDA is "uncapped", as far as I know, the maximum available in game at present is somewhere around 25%, and that only for Wizards who get 10% from their Mythical and 5% from a buff not their own.  So SDA is effectively "capped" at 10%.  I'll try to restrain my excitement.</p><p>Again, when a melee DPS seeks to grow his damage, what does he typically fall back on?  My experience has been that it's almost always MA, as that is the uncapped stat most readily available in quantity.  He can aquire this from a very wide variety of sources.  Buffs, AA's, procs, items . . . many sources.</p><p>Like I said, I look forward to it.  I hope it's balanced, and if not, I assume they will take steps to correct it.  Nerfing has never been a problem for SOE.</p>

[Banditman]

<p><cite>Davngr1 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Quabi@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><strong></strong>I strongly agree with the "just scrap it" sentiment, but it might even be better if they just didn't emphasize or itemize for it at all and left it to do practically no DPS.  That way it would not really do anything besides equalize proc rates.</p></blockquote><p> this works, just add a range auto.  </p><p>  at any rate this will never be balanced if the mage auto actually does a good amount of damage since mages won't have to be with in aoe distance to deal all most 100% of their damage then.  </p><p> meaning mage will be able to take advantage of no joust, no aoe game play like ranger but with much higher spell/ability damage.</p></blockquote><p>This is misleading.</p><p>Many Mages, and by many, I mean all of the "DPS" Mages, have multiple spells with limited range on them.  I cannot speak for Warlocks or Necromancers specifically, but Wizards and Conjurors have very "big" spells that require a range of 10m to hit a target.</p><p>Thus, no, we are not exempt from jousting if we want to execute on our maximum potential for DPS.</p>

[LardLord]

<p><cite>Banditman wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Ability mod is no longer itemized for, except as a set bonus.  I don't think I've seen SDA itemized either, except as part of a set bonus or available as an adorn which fits on only ONE slot.  While SDA is "uncapped", as far as I know, the maximum available in game at present is somewhere around 25%, and that only for Wizards who get 10% from their Mythical and 5% from a buff not their own.  So SDA is effectively "capped" at 10%.  I'll try to restrain my excitement.</p></blockquote><p>The point is that if they want to give mages "more stats to chase" they can start itemizing SDA (or ability mod)...they don't need to create this whole new mechanic for that purpose.</p>

[Banditman]

<p>You're right, they absolutely could.  I would be just as thrilled if they did that.  My excitement is centered around two things:</p><p>1.  Equalizing proc rates.  That has been a thorn in my side for a long time now.  It's still going to remain slightly problematic for me even after this mechanic, since as a Summoner, my pet cannot trigger my procs and much of my casting is directed at my pet instead of the mob.</p><p>2.  Something to pursue.  Mages have had very very little to pursue this expansion.  Now they have it.</p>

[Seidhkona]

<p><cite>Talathion@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Thats still alot, even if it doens't seem like it, since its not interruptable like melee combat and probably hits more.</p></blockquote><p>I think you're overlooking the fact that to use this new autoattack the mage has to be alive.  Given the rate at which people clad in toilet paper crumple, I just see it as a way to get some of the DPS back from when they're dead /evil grin.</p>

[Nrgy]

<p>I could be way off base here ... and late to this party for sure ... but I read this as Mages will be getting Auto Attack which applies to their spells.  Mages already Auto-Attack with thier weapon.</p><p>Spell Auto Attack would allow a mage to attack while interacting with the keyboard much less than they currently do in the same way every melee weapon works now for all classes.  (a.k.a. /afk-DPS or 2-boxing)</p><p>Again this might have been read wrong ... I'm not sure what all the talk about multi-attack and flurry have to do with Mages in general ... unless SOE is pushing to a single class Tank-Healer-DPS all rolled into one.  But then they are bringing back the BL so that actually might be true.</p><p>Spell-Auto-Attack + Focused Casting ............. wow!  everyone will be 'Towing' around extra DPS now. </p>

[Davngr1]

<p><cite>Banditman wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Davngr1 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Quabi@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><strong></strong>I strongly agree with the "just scrap it" sentiment, but it might even be better if they just didn't emphasize or itemize for it at all and left it to do practically no DPS.  That way it would not really do anything besides equalize proc rates.</p></blockquote><p> this works, just add a range auto.  </p><p>  at any rate this will never be balanced if the mage auto actually does a good amount of damage since mages won't have to be with in aoe distance to deal all most 100% of their damage then.  </p><p> meaning mage will be able to take advantage of no joust, no aoe game play like ranger but with much higher spell/ability damage.</p></blockquote><p>This is misleading.</p><p>Many Mages, and by many, I mean all of the "DPS" Mages, have multiple spells with limited range on them.  I cannot speak for Warlocks or Necromancers specifically, but Wizards and Conjurors have very "big" spells that require a range of 10m to hit a target.</p><p>Thus, no, we are not exempt from jousting if we want to execute on our maximum potential for DPS.</p></blockquote><p> it's really not misleading at all. </p><p>  even if those close limited range spells did 10% of your damage(a huge amount) you would still do 90% of your potential while being safe from close range aoe's and not having to joust.</p><p> on the other hand if a melee dps moves out of melee range he looses 80%+ of his damage easy.</p>

[Banditman]

<p>I assure you, Fusion and BoD are more than 10% of Wizard DPS.  Not to mention the upgrades to Thunderclap that causes it to do considerably more damage the closer you are to the mob.</p><p>Looking forward to seeing how it plays out.</p>

[Gaige]

<p><cite>Silzin@Crushbone wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I have not hurd any one say anything about real amounts for the Hast to Flurry amount or the new curve on DPS mob.... where did u get this numbers?  Are you sure u are not makig them up?</p></blockquote><p>Xelgad told me his intentions for the curves at Fan Faire.</p><p><span style="font-family: 'Times New Roman'; font-size: medium;"><div><p><cite>Sigrdrifa@Lucan DLere wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I think you're overlooking the fact that to use this new autoattack the mage has to be alive.  Given the rate at which people clad in toilet paper crumple, I just see it as a way to get some of the DPS back from when they're dead /evil grin.</p></blockquote><p>What game are you playing?  Mages don't have survivability issues at all.</p></div></span></p>

[Bruener]

<p><cite>Gaige wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Banditman wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>When they add this feature, they are also uncapping DPS mod and rolling Haste over into Flurry for melee players.</p></blockquote><p>Not really.  Every 200 haste over the cap is 1% flurry.  Likewise with DPS mod.</p></blockquote><p>Lol, those are pretty ridiculous numbers and I have a feeling he was pulling your leg.  The goal is to get people wanting those stats more and leaning away from teh same old same old MA.  DPS mod though I am sure is going to be a pretty flat curve because of the huge output increase it has.</p><p>I would think a ratio of like 100 haste gives 5% flurry would be a decent number.  Thats really only equivalent to 15% MA in dps gain so not overly significant, and even with people hitting like 500 total haste they are still only getting like 15% Flurry (45% MA equivalant).</p><p>At least this is how I would envision it.  I might think differently though seeing how my class gets a whopping 50 haste versus some of the other classes.</p>

[Gaige]

<p>/shrug</p><p>I doubt he was, since he specifically referenced monks and other classes that can already break like what, 500 haste in raids?</p>

[Silzin]

<p><cite>Gaige wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>/shrug</p><p>I doubt he was, since he specifically referenced monks and other classes that can already break like what, 500 haste in raids?</p></blockquote><p>at the rasheo of 20 Hast is 1 Flurry, 500 hast would only have 15 flurry.  that barly sound like it even worth the time and effert to drive your hast up that high.  but i am talking as a monk.....</p>

[Gaige]

<p>15% flurry is 45% ma, that seems worth it for a stat you already have to me.</p>

[Silzin]

In raid i am tanking or OTing and thos i dont have the classes that would give me all of hast in the world. i am over capped in raid but i am no where near 500... i may be able to hit 500 with the right classes but i am not there. so the dps, hate and servivabilitie that i would lows for getting that much hate probably wouldnt be worth the dps gain from the flurry. the flurry would be nice since i am over cap any way, but if its 1 flurry for 100 hast, they might as well not do it. 1 flurry for ~20 hast would make it more worth it, but i probably wouldnt try to get it over dps mob or MA

[Talathion]

<p>well I'm hoping they make mage autoattack where they "MUST" time there auto-attacks... or mages spells need to be brought down a bit.</p><p>They're DPS is fine atm, right where it should be.</p><p>Or they can't autoattack while moving.</p><p>Or cast root spells while moving.</p>

[Trensharo]

<p>They should make sure they give my pet spell auto attack as well... since it's pretty clear they're going to do it.</p>

[urgthock]

<p><cite>Talathion@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>well I'm hoping they make mage autoattack where they "MUST" time there auto-attacks... or mages spells need to be brought down a bit.</p></blockquote><p>Timing auto spell attacks for mages simply isn't really all that feasible if they actually want to accomplish what they are trying to accomplish here, which appears to be proc normalization. Most spells cast way too slow <strong>compared to</strong> combat arts.</p>

[Silzin]

They already stated that spell auto attach will not have to be timed. they said it just after they announced it.

[Talathion]

<p>Mages already do alot of damage, this might get rediculous, especially when they can MOVE while casting.</p>

[Bruener]

<p><cite>Gaige wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>/shrug</p><p>I doubt he was, since he specifically referenced monks and other classes that can already break like what, 500 haste in raids?</p></blockquote><p>Yeah, might be about right.  I know as a SK I can't even touch 300 in raids with haste from multiple people and my procs going.</p><p>The whole spill-over idea is nice, but it goes right back to some classes have a ton while others have very little.</p><p>Somethings better than nothing though I guess, at least that 500 haste will mean something, just not much.</p>

[Ryai]

You guys underestimate how powerful flurry is. Spell multi attack is a more equivalent stat than anything else. It's something that has to be very carefully added. 100 haste-1% flurry would actually be ok. 50-1 would be better I think, but it would be really easy for it to get out of hand. I dont know why people are worried about mage spell attack. If it's equivalent to Mage autoattack right now, it will do almost nothing compared to their spells. Especially considering that mages spec potency over most everything which has no effect on autoattack and that they have zero itemized ma/dps(if it even affects it)/haste.

[disappointed]

<p><cite>Davngr1 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Banditman wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Davngr1 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p> this works, just add a range auto.  </p><p>  at any rate this will never be balanced if the mage auto actually does a good amount of damage since mages won't have to be with in aoe distance to deal all most 100% of their damage then.  </p><p> meaning mage will be able to take advantage of no joust, no aoe game play like ranger but with much higher spell/ability damage.</p></blockquote><p>This is misleading.</p><p>Many Mages, and by many, I mean all of the "DPS" Mages, have multiple spells with limited range on them.  I cannot speak for Warlocks or Necromancers specifically, but Wizards and Conjurors have very "big" spells that require a range of 10m to hit a target.</p><p>Thus, no, we are not exempt from jousting if we want to execute on our maximum potential for DPS.</p></blockquote><p> it's really not misleading at all. </p><p>  even if those close limited range spells did 10% of your damage(a huge amount) you would still do 90% of your potential while being safe from close range aoe's and not having to joust.</p><p> on the other hand if a melee dps moves out of melee range he looses 80%+ of his damage easy.</p></blockquote><p>lol. wrong. just go play a "DPS" mage. jousting in general is in favour of melee classes. the end.as it is now - mages would have to joust aswell because of the close range while doing zero dps.melee dps have auto attack and maybe some range CA aswell they can apply on the move.</p>

[Bruener]

<p><cite>Cyan@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote>You guys underestimate how powerful flurry is. Spell multi attack is a more equivalent stat than anything else. It's something that has to be very carefully added. 100 haste-1% flurry would actually be ok. 50-1 would be better I think, but it would be really easy for it to get out of hand. I dont know why people are worried about mage spell attack. If it's equivalent to Mage autoattack right now, it will do almost nothing compared to their spells. Especially considering that mages spec potency over most everything which has no effect on autoattack and that they have zero itemized ma/dps(if it even affects it)/haste.</blockquote><p>Actualy you overestimate how powerful flurry is.  1 Flurry = 3 Multi-Attack.  That means for a whopping 100 haste you get the same addition as what 3 MA would give?  Or if Gaige is right 200 haste gives you the equivalent gain of 3 MA?</p><p>Really the numbers at that point are such a tiny gain that people definitely will not actively seek the stat at all.  But for those classes that seem to be aquiring a huge amount of it it won't seem like some total waste.  Meaning most likely if that is how numbers are going to roll out you will not even see a little bump in overall DPS.  I mean look at it like this, lets say you hit 600 haste and the conversion is 200:1 haste to flurry over the 200 haste cap.  That means for that 400 extra haste you get the equivalent of a yellow adornment.</p><p>And the reason people worry about mage spell auto attack is because it is unneeded and by design it becomes just a pulsing DPS stat even more easy mode than auto attack since you don't even have to worry about timing it.  Than the worry is that maybe it launches balanced but as Mages stat more and more for it it could have the potential to increase to the same % of a parse that Auto Attack does while the growth of their other DPS won't decline to balance it.</p>

[Ryai]

Bruener, I'm not sure if you're advocating for or against flurry. And everything you posted doesn't make much sense about it. Go find a reliable brawler who achieves decent flurry rates. Get a dirge and then watch what they parse with BC and without it. You'll find there are huge returns with it, especially dual wielding. One flurry can be the equivalent of 100-300% multi attack. It's nothing to scoff at. It's a powerful, powerful stat. The only other stat in game with returns that high per percent is spell multi attack. As for mage auto attack, I think it's completely valid to worry that it is balanced correctly. However, the need for balance already exists since mages have a disproportionately low chance to proc powerful effects compared to fighters and scouts. Especially the slower casting ones. I'm not expecting bows for mages. I'm expecting an autoattack that will hit as hard as mage autoattack does now anyways. Hardly game breaking when you actually look at parses.

[Gaige]

<p>[Removed for Content] are you talking about 1 flurry equal to 300% MA.  Are you crazy?</p>

[CorpseGoddess]

<p>I don't know about lowering <em>they're </em>spell damage, but they may lower <em>their </em>spell damage.  You never can tell.</p><p>...this message brought to you by your local chapter of People Who Can't Stand To See Grammar Horribly Mangled.</p>

[Ryai]

By 1 flurry, I mean one hit. Not 1%. One flurry hit can be the same as 3 multi attacks. A straight up 1-3 equivalency doesn't work because of flurry's ability to skip the progression MA goes through. 100 to 200 never results in more than 2 MAs for example. Flurry being too liberally handed out will result in melee nerfs. Because it might equate out just fine in the long term, but people are historically incapable of examining larger data sets. They'll see that one time where the flurry hit every time on top of

[Lethe5683]

<p>Flurry should not exist.</p>

[Gaige]

<p>They can remove flurry when they remove SDA OH and every other unique effect from class mythicals, since removing the flurry stat will make the assassin mythical about worthless and absolutely bland.</p>

[Loldawg]

<p>Lore wise - it feels stupid for casters to get some weird auto-attack. It also takes zero thought to execute. Not fun. Not totally clear why they even did this. Normalizing proc rates doesn't seem important enough to me. I'd rather not be completely homogeonized w/ every other class - I like the pros and cons of choosing a calss. Everyone getting the same benefits is boring.</p>

[Bruener]

<p><cite>Cyan@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote>Bruener, I'm not sure if you're advocating for or against flurry. And everything you posted doesn't make much sense about it. Go find a reliable brawler who achieves decent flurry rates. Get a dirge and then watch what they parse with BC and without it. You'll find there are huge returns with it, especially dual wielding. One flurry can be the equivalent of 100-300% multi attack. It's nothing to scoff at. It's a powerful, powerful stat. The only other stat in game with returns that high per percent is spell multi attack. As for mage auto attack, I think it's completely valid to worry that it is balanced correctly. However, the need for balance already exists since mages have a disproportionately low chance to proc powerful effects compared to fighters and scouts. Especially the slower casting ones. I'm not expecting bows for mages. I'm expecting an autoattack that will hit as hard as mage autoattack does now anyways. Hardly game breaking when you actually look at parses.</blockquote><p>Maybe you missed the post from Xelgad about the actual increase flurry chance gives.  1% Flurry is the same increase as 3% MA.</p><p>I know exactly how Flurry works.  I can get about 18% Flurry in a raid if for some wierd reason I got BC and the % increase to DPS is not that big.  In fact 18% Flurry chance is a similar increase as 54% MA.  Maybe people don't realize that the % chance of Flurry actually doing the max amounts of hits is very small.  Most of the time a Flurry will hit for 2-3 hits.  Avg out lets say you have 100% Flurry chance....3 hits being a stretch for the norm.  100% Flurry than equals 300% MA.  1 Flurry equals 3 MA.</p><p>In a way I am an advocate for more Flurry % based off the spill over of haste.  However, the classes that can reach huge amounts of it easily should have their haste toned down to be in line with other characters.  Many classes get to hit a whopping 50% haste self buffed, thow in some procs and maybe 100% haste on average.  While other classes are hitting 3x that amount.  Spill over stats are a great idea and could allow people to focus on other stats instead of just MA...but those with outlier amounts would have to be brought in line if they were going to give a decent amount out.  Otherwise as Gaige pointed out they will probably do such a minimal amount that those couple outlier classes at least feel like their astronomical amount of a stat is going towards something instead of nothing while it ends up having almost no impact on DPS output.</p>

[Talathion]

<p><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Cyan@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote>Bruener, I'm not sure if you're advocating for or against flurry. And everything you posted doesn't make much sense about it. Go find a reliable brawler who achieves decent flurry rates. Get a dirge and then watch what they parse with BC and without it. You'll find there are huge returns with it, especially dual wielding. One flurry can be the equivalent of 100-300% multi attack. It's nothing to scoff at. It's a powerful, powerful stat. The only other stat in game with returns that high per percent is spell multi attack. As for mage auto attack, I think it's completely valid to worry that it is balanced correctly. However, the need for balance already exists since mages have a disproportionately low chance to proc powerful effects compared to fighters and scouts. Especially the slower casting ones. I'm not expecting bows for mages. I'm expecting an autoattack that will hit as hard as mage autoattack does now anyways. Hardly game breaking when you actually look at parses.</blockquote><p>Maybe you missed the post from Xelgad about the actual increase flurry chance gives.  1% Flurry is the same increase as 3% MA.</p><p>I know exactly how Flurry works.  I can get about 18% Flurry in a raid if for some wierd reason I got BC and the % increase to DPS is not that big.  In fact 18% Flurry chance is a similar increase as 54% MA.  Maybe people don't realize that the % chance of Flurry actually doing the max amounts of hits is very small.  Most of the time a Flurry will hit for 2-3 hits.  Avg out lets say you have 100% Flurry chance....3 hits being a stretch for the norm.  100% Flurry than equals 300% MA.  1 Flurry equals 3 MA.</p><p>In a way I am an advocate for more Flurry % based off the spill over of haste.  However, the classes that can reach huge amounts of it easily should have their haste toned down to be in line with other characters.  Many classes get to hit a whopping 50% haste self buffed, thow in some procs and maybe 100% haste on average.  While other classes are hitting 3x that amount.  Spill over stats are a great idea and could allow people to focus on other stats instead of just MA...but those with outlier amounts would have to be brought in line if they were going to give a decent amount out.  Otherwise as Gaige pointed out they will probably do such a minimal amount that those couple outlier classes at least feel like their astronomical amount of a stat is going towards something instead of nothing while it ends up having almost no impact on DPS output.</p></blockquote><p>So.. yeah as a berserker I get 400 haste, thats 1% extra flurry for me when the guy with 100 haste gets a 10% flurry buff?</p><p>so basicly they get 100% Attack speed and 10% flurry (if you had an illy it would be 125% attack speed), and I get 125% Attack speed and 1% flurry?</p>

[Ryai]

<p><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Maybe you missed the post from Xelgad about the actual increase flurry chance gives.  1% Flurry is the same increase as 3% MA.</p><p>I know exactly how Flurry works.  I can get about 18% Flurry in a raid if for some wierd reason I got BC and the % increase to DPS is not that big.  In fact 18% Flurry chance is a similar increase as 54% MA.  Maybe people don't realize that the % chance of Flurry actually doing the max amounts of hits is very small.  Most of the time a Flurry will hit for 2-3 hits.  Avg out lets say you have 100% Flurry chance....3 hits being a stretch for the norm.  100% Flurry than equals 300% MA.  1 Flurry equals 3 MA.</p><p>In a way I am an advocate for more Flurry % based off the spill over of haste.  However, the classes that can reach huge amounts of it easily should have their haste toned down to be in line with other characters.  Many classes get to hit a whopping 50% haste self buffed, thow in some procs and maybe 100% haste on average.  While other classes are hitting 3x that amount.  Spill over stats are a great idea and could allow people to focus on other stats instead of just MA...but those with outlier amounts would have to be brought in line if they were going to give a decent amount out.  Otherwise as Gaige pointed out they will probably do such a minimal amount that those couple outlier classes at least feel like their astronomical amount of a stat is going towards something instead of nothing while it ends up having almost no impact on DPS output.</p></blockquote><p>When capped out sure, but I'm saying in practice there is a difference. Also, you don't dual weild. You're a crusader. That means your flurry benefits are far, far, far less. Flurry isn't an SK stat.</p>

[Gaige]

<p><cite>Cyan@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>When capped out sure, but I'm saying in practice there is a difference. Also, you don't dual weild. You're a crusader. That means your flurry benefits are far, far, far less. Flurry isn't an SK stat.</p></blockquote><p>MA outparses flurry for me, and I'm fairly sure I have some of the highest flurry you can even atain, something like 57% in raids.</p>

[Silzin]

The huge problem with making Haste a 100:1 ratio to flurry is that is relay make uncapping haste useless, and unless they do the same stupid ratio to DPS mod making it useless to over cap as well. then all of the classes that get huge amounts of dps mod instead of haste and are balanced that way will become way unbalanced. so they will need to find some way of balancing what one MA adorn, one DPS Mod adorn, and one Attach Speed adorn can give if you are already caped on dps and haste. I may be wrong but i dont think making dps and hast so useless that a 100:1 haste to flurry and a dps mod of about as useless is going to make people think about attach speed or dps over MA.... EVER. White Attach Speed adorn gives 4.9% at superiors White Multi Attach adorn gives 4.6% at superiors if at over cap these are wanted to give somewhat close of a dps gain then even a 10:1 is not enuff. a ~ 3 or 4 to 1 would be about balanced. but thats from the adorn level not what some classes can hit.

[Ryai]

Gaige, I'm also sure you have ridiculously high MA. Are you even in the ballpark of 400% anymore?

[steelbadger]

<p>Flurry is just a flavour stat now that DA is MA and has been uncapped.  I'm not entirely sure why it still exists, if SOE wants to simplify stats so much Flurry CAN be converted to MA at a rate of 1%=3%.</p><p>Cyan, the hard truth is that Flurry is a shadow of it's former self, it is no longer SOOO AWESOME like it used to be.  Yes, on it's own merit it is a powerful stat, but mathematically it is worth 3MA, nothing more and nothing less.  There is no difference 'in practice'.  1% Flurry is the same as 3% MA no matter what your stats are and no matter what weapons you're wielding.</p><p>Neither can proc things.</p><p>Both can hit off both off-hand and main-hand.</p><p>Both are contested to the same degree.</p><p>Both are modified by the same stats (Primary, DPS, Base Melee Mod).</p><p>It makes flurry pretty redundant really, but if you want to balance them against eachother it also makes life very easy.</p>

[millie]

<p><cite>steelbadger wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Flurry is just a flavour stat now that DA is MA and has been uncapped.  I'm not entirely sure why it still exists, if SOE wants to simplify stats so much Flurry CAN be converted to MA at a rate of 1%=3%.</p><p>Cyan, the hard truth is that Flurry is a shadow of it's former self, it is no longer SOOO AWESOME like it used to be.  Yes, on it's own merit it is a powerful stat, but mathematically it is worth 3MA, nothing more and nothing less.  There is no difference 'in practice'.  1% Flurry is the same as 3% MA no matter what your stats are and no matter what weapons you're wielding.</p><p>Neither can proc things.</p><p>Both can hit off both off-hand and main-hand.</p><p>Both are contested to the same degree.</p><p>Both are modified by the same stats (Primary, DPS, Base Melee Mod).</p><p>It makes flurry pretty redundant really, but if you want to balance them against eachother it also makes life very easy.</p></blockquote><p>As I understand it Flurry normalises to 1% Flurry = 3MA over time, however Flurry is a burst of hits.   If you are playing a bard and the "burst" occurs during an RO you can get much higher recorded damage.  I am much less sure that if it occurs during a VC whether you get more VC procs but this may also be the case.</p><p>In any case higher recorded damage in RO = higher VC proc for group = higher dps</p>

[Ryai]

That was my point. SMA also normalizes out over time, but when viewed on short timescales it's extremely spiky for what it does. 100% flurry does equal 300% MA. But 50% flurry can perform vastly different than 150% MA is my point, depending on the RNG. Granted, that can go either way, but I still contend that I would much, much rather have 50% flurry over 150% MA, simply for the raw spike damage potential comparatively.

[EQPrime]

<p><cite>millie wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>As I understand it Flurry normalises to 1% Flurry = 3MA over time, however Flurry is a burst of hits.   If you are playing a bard and the "burst" occurs during an RO you can get much higher recorded damage.  I am much less sure that if it occurs during a VC whether you get more VC procs but this may also be the case.</p><p>In any case higher recorded damage in RO = higher VC proc for group = higher dps</p></blockquote><p>RO does not record flurry, MA, procs, or sda.</p>