Remove ammo or endless quiver

[Roxus]

<p>I posted this on extended as well:</p><p>Devs, Is it time for ammo to be removed from the game or give rangers endless quiver?</p><p>Many of the mmo's have removed or do not use ammo, Everquest 1 has Endless quiver for Rangers.</p><p>Endless Quiver could be added in the ranger tree under shadows instead of reclamation?</p><p>I myself never buy arrows off the broker and I get friends to make them, but we use so many even with Arrow</p><p>Reclamation.</p><p>I am currently working on getting one of the Bow's from Deathtoll that will create ammo but no luck yet.</p><p>What do u guys think ?</p>

[Neiloch]

<p>While I agree 100% it's been discussed at great length by the players and unfortunately with no dev input on those threads.</p><p>All I ever see now is "it's not hard to get arrows" used as a reason why they <em>don't</em> need a version of endless quiver or removal of arrows. In reality it's just another reason why they SHOULD get rid of arrows, its so minor. At most right now it's busy work, it's not some huge feature that would be missed. It just takes up time and space and doesn't contribute anything to the fun factor of gameplay. It's useless fat that needs to be trimmed or a troublesome organ that you could easily live without.</p><p>Then again the devs might see it as a money sink and don't want to get rid of one. Also might be a crafter problem since that is most of the woodworkers business as far as I can tell. Of course most people I know that use a lot of arrows just make a woodworker and don't even participate in the server economies in that capacity.</p>

[Kram337]

<p>I have two ideas for arrows:</p><ul><li>Mobs start dropping generic arrows in small handfuls. When looted they become the type you have in your quiver or maybe just random types dropor</li><li>Arrows stop becoming stackable, they're just like a regular equiped item an you can craft them, quest for them, or find them as loot drops. So like you could get a fabled quiver/arrow from a raid mob or something</li></ul>

[Raahl]

<p>Sony, please do not remove ammo or add endless quivers.   Making the change suggested above will erase a section of the economy and make arrow crafters very unhappy.</p><p>Please look into what is eating up all the arrows and fix it to reduce the amount that gets used.  Perhaps making only auto attack/multiattack the only things that use arrows.</p>

[loramil]

<p><cite>Raahl wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Sony, please do not remove ammo or add endless quivers.   Making the change suggested above will erase a section of the economy and make arrow crafters very unhappy.</p><p>Please look into what is eating up all the arrows and fix it to reduce the amount that gets used.  <strong>Perhaps making only auto attack/multiattack the only things that use arrows.</strong></p></blockquote><p>I believe this is already the case; the only caveat being your CA's don't work if you don't work if you actually run out of ammo.</p>

[Neiloch]

<p><cite>Raahl wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Sony, please do not remove ammo or add endless quivers.   Making the change suggested above will erase a section of the economy and make arrow crafters very unhappy.</p><p>Please look into what is eating up all the arrows and fix it to reduce the amount that gets used.  Perhaps making only auto attack/multiattack the only things that use arrows.</p></blockquote><p>The fact that there is an entire economy based on just crafting arrows shows how badly designed the whole system is. Even if you called it a 'ammo' economy a huge share of that would just be field point arrows.</p><p>Well hey they could make the new mage auto attack use some sort of reagent. I'm sure they plan on making that powerful even though it will be introduced 'weak'. It will be a HUGE act of hypocrisy if they make caster auto attack anything remotely as powerful as melee or ranged auto attack and not use some sort of ammo, since it would completely destroy the argument of it being a ranged auto attack and that's why it needs to use ammo to 'balance' things out.</p><p>I'm afraid they just designed a [Removed for Content] poor system and won't go away any time soon. i can only hope they learn from their mistakes and won't make EQNext use ammo and only have a 1 class use it more than any other class by a ridiculously huge amount.</p>

[Raahl]

<p>Let me add, It is unfair that Rangers have to basically pay money for their DPS.  I could be swayed toward some solution that allows them to reduce this amount greatly.   Heck I could even be swayed towards the removal of standard ammo, but keeping special ammo that they can use to maximize their DPS.  Want the best arrows then it will cost ya.</p>

[Banedon_Toran]

<p>All the MUD's I ever played before EQ2 would allow the archer to loot a certain percentage of arrows from the corpse of the mob they killed, e.g. an archer might use 40 arrows to down a mob, but would loot 20~30 arrows from the corpse.  Obviously if you fail to kill the mob you don't get your arrows back.</p>

[GussJr]

<p>Or change "makeshift arrows" back to what it use to be, prior to SF (so we can make our own ammor again, isntead of saving a percentage)...but improve the stats of the arrows we make...</p><p>edit: spelling police</p>

[Neiloch]

<p><cite>GussJr wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Or change "makeshift arrows" back to what it use to be, prior to SF (so we can make our own ammor again, isntead of saving a percentage)...but improve the stats of the arrows we make...</p><p>edit: spelling police</p></blockquote><p>makeshift arrows was terrible before the change. Besides the obvious fact that they were THE worst arrows in the game, they also would have needed to be changed at this point to summon MUCH more. They never seemed willing to make the arrows on par or better than handcrafted ones. This was evident by the AA they tried to make for it to summon arrows just barely worse than handcrafted instead of a lot worse. So that whole idea was given up on pretty quickly. Even though I LOVED the fact on Vanguard rangers could make their own arrows through stuff they foraged, and they were the best arrows available to them. Vanguard rangers are still the best example of a ranger I have seen in a MMO to date.</p><p>I still think a good compromise would to make ammo work the same was as food, then turn all our arrow conservation stats into stats that extend how long they last. This could also expand on recipes as well as providing a way to craft more at once. You could craft 'bundles' of arrows that last different amounts of time. Small bundles last a half hour, large bundles last an hour, giant bundles last 3 hours for example. Then make them usable in current ammo containers as to not make ammo containers useless. Still using ammo we have to buy from crafters while circumventing the issue of good/high stats making us use ridiculous amounts.</p>

[Kram337]

<p><cite>Banedon_Toran wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>All the MUD's I ever played before EQ2 would allow the archer to loot a certain percentage of arrows from the corpse of the mob they killed, e.g. an archer might use 40 arrows to down a mob, but would loot 20~30 arrows from the corpse.  Obviously if you fail to kill the mob you don't get your arrows back.</p></blockquote><p>That sounds like a fair deal to me. In fact I really like that idea.</p><p>If I want maximum DPS it costs me 10p for 200 arrows. Blessed field point arrows. There's no way I can even come close to affording that, so instead I buy the worse ones for 42g a stack. Even that ends up being pretty expensive since I can go through 1000+ arrows a day.</p><p>I just wish my auto attack was free like every other class in the game.</p>

[Neiloch]

<p><cite>Kram337 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I just wish my auto attack was free like every other class in the game.</p></blockquote><p>This is kind of what I was hinting at when talking about the soon to be added caster auto attack.</p><p>The big argument for bow auto attack having to use arrows was that it's the price you pay for being able to auto attack at range. Well, they are adding a ranged auto attack that will presumably not 'cost' anything. This would effectively render that argument useless unless they want to be obvious hypocrites. They are introducing it 'weak' but they wouldn't be adding it unless they plan on eventually leaning on it more heavily in the future.</p><p>I'd LOVE to have a developer answer this question: If casters are getting a 'free' ranged auto attack as a source of DPS, why are rangers still having to pay for theirs?</p>

[Raeleafrae]

<p>Who wants to lay odds that somewhere down the line they'll replace the Befriend Animal AA with an ammo conservation AA, then tell us they hear our concerns and have taken steps to rectify the situation.</p><p>Except we'll still have to waste AA to get an ability that other people get for free.</p>

[Hellcatt]

<p><cite>Neiloch@Butcherblock wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Raahl wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Sony, please do not remove ammo or add endless quivers.   Making the change suggested above will erase a section of the economy and make arrow crafters very unhappy.</p><p>Please look into what is eating up all the arrows and fix it to reduce the amount that gets used.  Perhaps making only auto attack/multiattack the only things that use arrows.</p></blockquote><p>The fact that there is an entire economy based on just crafting arrows shows how badly designed the whole system is. Even if you called it a 'ammo' economy a huge share of that would just be field point arrows.</p><p>Well hey they could make the new mage auto attack use some sort of reagent. I'm sure they plan on making that powerful even though it will be introduced 'weak'. It will be a HUGE act of hypocrisy if they make caster auto attack anything remotely as powerful as melee or ranged auto attack and not use some sort of ammo, since it would completely destroy the argument of it being a ranged auto attack and that's why it needs to use ammo to 'balance' things out.</p><p>I'm afraid they just designed a [Removed for Content] poor system and won't go away any time soon. i can only hope they learn from their mistakes and won't make EQNext use ammo and only have a 1 class use it more than any other class by a ridiculously huge amount.</p></blockquote><p>LoL a mages only ammo is mana <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" />  But I agree no class should have to pay money to DPS.  And I am sure that mage auto attack going to be quite a bit less powerful than any other autoattack.</p>

[Neiloch]

<p><cite>Raeleafrae@Lucan DLere wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Who wants to lay odds that somewhere down the line they'll replace the Befriend Animal AA with an ammo conservation AA, then tell us they hear our concerns and have taken steps to rectify the situation.</p><p>Except we'll still have to waste AA to get an ability that other people get for free.</p></blockquote><p>In principal I agree we shouldn't have to waste an AA endline for this, but even if they did that (which I don't think they will) I would still get it.</p><p>They will never get rid of ammo because it would make some minority of tradeskillers mad and it would get rid of a money sink, small as it is.</p><p>I still think its BS and hypocritical that mages are going to get a ranged auto attack that doesn't require a reagent to be used.</p>

[azogouhl]

<p>The "money sink" involved is so small it's ridiculous. The majority of the money is staying in the player base, making the carpenters rich and the rangers poor. The impact on other classes is insignificant. The only way to fix the problem is for every ranger to be a carpenter and spend 70% of their time harvesting/crafting and 30% adventuring.</p><p>I am still a firm believer in the vanguard system of; forage these 3 items, combine them to make stack of arrows. Even better, they make THE BEST arrows in the game, and they are useable by rangers only.</p>

[Landiin]

One really don't understand this until you play and high level ranger. I know I didn't until I stated raiding and really playing him. Wow do we go through the Fn arrows. Something needs to be done about this. Now that mage's get ranged auto attack and don't have to use ammo it is really unfair to us rangers that have to spend plat on good arrows to DPS where others get to DPS for free.

[Kohast_Fel]

<p>I like the idea of being able to swap out my ammo to do different damage types or have bonus damage rather than having an endless supply of generic ammo.</p><p>Keep ammo in the game. It is one of the things that ruined another game I will not mention.</p>

[Kitsune75]

<p>... I was going to post about there being 342 companies in the US that solely make small arms ammunition according to a small business search site. This was in reference about "arrows ruining an economy", but then I noticed the date of the post I was going to quote.... I think that person has died of old age. Way to necro. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

[Neiloch]

<p><cite>Kohast_Fel wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I like the idea of being able to swap out my ammo to do different damage types or have bonus damage rather than having an endless supply of generic ammo.</p></blockquote><p>I like that idea too but too bad it is at best poorly implemented and any sense of that is an illusion. Anything but 'field point' is sub par on any content that has difficulty, and any performance increase the other types of arrows have are negligible, unless you like min/maxing for solo and outdated content, but anyone who does min/max use field point all the time anyway. At least repairing equipment is part of a death penalty which is pretty low as is.</p><p>Arrows are a boring chore and a pointless, small, moneysink. It's easily manageable creating arrows of any type before I start running content. But so is turning a small crank for a half hour before I start my day, doesn't mean I have to like it. Especially when it can easily be done away with, and no other class has to do anything remotely similar.</p><p><cite>Kohast_Fel wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Keep ammo in the game. It is one of the things that ruined another game I will not mention.</p></blockquote><p>If you are referencing WoW, that game was very much ruined before and after they simply removed ammo. Little impact outside of getting rid of a pointless busywork chore thus a quick improvement 'quality of life' for players.</p><p><cite>Kitsune75 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>... I was going to post about there being 342 companies in the US that solely make small arms ammunition according to a small business search site. This was in reference about "arrows ruining an economy", but then I noticed the date of the post I was going to quote.... I think that person has died of old age. Way to necro. <img src="../images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" /></p></blockquote><p>And? So? What? Comparing video game arrows to real life bullets doesn't draw a lot of parallels. unless you know of a lot of gun enthusiasts that create ALL of their own bullets, even one of the highest quality.</p>

[Kitsune75]

<p><cite>Neiloch@Butcherblock wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>And? So? What? Comparing video game arrows to real life bullets doesn't draw a lot of parallels. unless you know of a lot of gun enthusiasts that create ALL of their own bullets, even one of the highest quality.</p></blockquote><p>What?</p><p>Actually Most of the "gun enthusiasts" that I know do make their own rounds when it come to match shooting, but in reguards to most hunters I know they purchace their rounds. They purchase the rounds from companies that make a profit from selling to hunters and others that would rather purchase ammunition rather than make their own.</p><p>Here's the parallel. Removing ammunition from woodworkers would be an economic hit to the woodworkers that sell ammo, just like would happen if all firearm users in the US were required to create their own ammo.</p><p>I don't see that ammunition "ruins the economy" whether a game economy or a real life one. (which was my original point)</p><p>Having said my point, I can also say this I like the ideas of dropped ammo found in game, and perhaps of higher level ammo found on raid mobs, but I don't favor scrapping ammo entirely.</p>

[General_Info]

<p><cite>Kitsune75 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote>What?<p>Actually Most of the "gun enthusiasts" that I know do make their own rounds when it come to match shooting, but in reguards to most hunters I know they purchace their rounds. They purchase the rounds from companies that make a profit from selling to hunters and others that would rather purchase ammunition rather than make their own.</p><p>Here's the parallel. Removing ammunition from woodworkers would be an economic hit to the woodworkers that sell ammo, just like would happen if all firearm users in the US were required to create their own ammo.</p><p>I don't see that ammunition "ruins the economy" whether a game economy or a real life one. (which was my original point)</p><p>Having said my point, I can also say this I like the ideas of dropped ammo found in game, and perhaps of higher level ammo found on raid mobs, but I don't favor scrapping ammo entirely.</p></blockquote><p>There might be a way to make both sides happy what if the quantity of arrows produced per craft were increased and the bonuses on the arrows were higher and the eagle's talon bows did not require ammunition (but the bonuses on the arrows would be enough enticement to buy/craft them).</p><p>I have seen in many games that ammo for ranged non-magical classes is a sticking sore point. mages don't require ammunition all classes use power for their attacks so why dont mages types have some sort of magical ammo for their staffs?</p><p>people like things to be fair ranged classes that require ammunition while everyone else doesn't see ammo as an unfair economic or time disavantage(buying or crafting).</p><p>Making arrows is a grind i would be happy if they yeilded double or triple per craft even if the fuel and resource requirements were equally increased because it would reduce the time spent making them.</p>

[Errrorr]

<p>I go through 10k worth of arrows a night on a raid. Arrows are 25silver each on SP. 50gp a stack, so thats 25 Plat a night on arrows alone.</p><p>With Reforging coming, I'm totally considering dropping my MA adorns, gaining some MA elsewhere, and Speccing ammo conservation adorns.</p>

[CyclopsSlayer]

<p>Even just solo leveling 81-83 in the Sundered Frontier yesterday I went through most of 2400 arrows, one partial stack left at the end of the day. Also went through several vials of poison, but that is largely trivial.</p><p>Some days I can get them crafted for me for mat costs by a guildie, but not yesterday. Spent a bit over 4 plat for for 1 days play. Show me another class that has a constant and continous drain on their pocket just to play, come on, Warlocks? Wizards? Bard getting charged for lute strings?</p><p>Ranger is still fun to play, but if it gets to Raiding and needs to beg on a street corner every day just to afford a nights work... we'll have to reconsider things.</p><p>Until then I guess I will keep killing things with Plat Poisoning.  Feeding raw coins to mobs until they choke to death.</p>

[Kitsune75]

<p>This <em>might </em>work.</p><p>Next time a raiding ranger runs out of arrows, completely fill up your quiver with vendor tin arrows and then engage in the raid. When you're brought to task about your parsing, go through the motions of comparing all your gear and items <em>except the arrows</em> to find the flaw; save the arrows for last. Once everyone is good and riled up, then tell them that you were short on cash and purchased the tin arrows in a pinch and wait about 15-30 seconds for the shock to wear off (and the shouting to die down).</p><p>Then remind everyone that the time and expense that you spent on your toon was the same as everyone else, and in fact, you <em>just</em> went over it in fine detail. Finally, remind your guild that raiding is a <strong>group</strong> effort, and if the raid wants the best DPS it can get from a ranger, then they need to <strong>group up</strong> and divide the ammo costs.</p><p>It's logic and sound reasoning. Should work like a charm. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" /></p><p>--Kit</p><p>must learn to type...</p>

[Neiloch]

<p>Haha that's a long way for a little bit. And there's no way I would basically punish my guild for SoE's mistakes.</p><p>I think the most likely compromise is to increase how many arrows we can craft at a time. Considering how high multi-attack can get.</p><p>500 arrows at a time seems reasonable, just add some new recipes to ammo that use 5x the amount of resources but put out 5x the yield. Ideally I would like some way to customize how many I am making at a time, though. Right now crating arrows 100 at a time when the stacks go to 200 and most rangers use mutlple stacks a day, it's just a boring tedious chore. Increasing the yield would at least help with the 'tedious' part.</p><p>I really can't see how this would be objected to by anyone. Except maybe people who craft other things and would like a way to craft multiple things at once, which I really wouldn't have a problem with. Just make it so it only gives experience as if it were a single combine instead of 5 at a time.</p><p>I wouldn't be surprised if the devs had some sort of 'balance chart' or methodology that this would fly in the face of though. Probably the same one that says ranger bow CA's should do less DPS than melee ones lol.</p>

[CyclopsSlayer]

<p>Question? What is the actual cost to make that say Titanium field point arrow?</p><p>Does it truly cost 12-20 Silver for each and every arrow? Or is someone guilty of a bit of profiteering?</p><p>It sure isn't the cost of the wood and metal, which I and others drop tons of into the guilds resource depot. Sandpaper  and the amortized costs of training and time spent that seems to be heavily marked up part.</p>

[General_Info]

<p><cite>Rejek@Crushbone wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Question? What is the actual cost to make that say Titanium field point arrow?</p><p>Does it truly cost 12-20 Silver for each and every arrow? Or is someone guilty of a bit of profiteering?</p><p>It sure isn't the cost of the wood and metal, which I and others drop tons of into the guilds resource depot. Sandpaper  and the amortized costs of training and time spent that seems to be heavily marked up part.</p></blockquote><p>If you really want to check out the cost per 100 arrows it is as simple as looking up the recipe on the wikia and then looking at the price of the sandpaper per unit multiplied by how many is needed in the recipe.</p><p>In any case i have seen simple products which have no combat use listed on the broker for 400% the cost in fuels which shows it is always good to know how much stuff really costs to make.</p><p>increased arrows per craft with equally increased resources is a good solution for those that make their rangers woodworkers so they dont get ripped off by greedy people.</p><p>However this would advantage all those greedy people, personally i would prefer if classes which require ammo for their weapons got a production bonus on the ammo type their class uses when they craft them. (throwing knives, throwing hammers, arrows)</p>

[Neiloch]

<p>Cost itself is a non issue for me since I make my own. I get resources 'free' from the hirelings and only pay for the fuel. My issue is time sink tedium of actually making them. If I played anything but a ranger I would probably just buy them off the market and pay the premium for instant arrows, but I go through FAR too many arrows to justify that cost. If I could just make 2000 arrows in 1-4 combines I would be MUCH less annoyed. As it is its more like 8-10 combines for a short term fix.</p>

[rocthorne999]

<p>Myth clicky...ammo conservation and arrow reclamation...you will never run out of ammo...oh and if you have yellow slots that arent occupied use conservation adorn.</p>

[Neiloch]

<p>Are you insane? I have my myth (obviously) and maxed out arrow reclamation, I'm still burning through ~2000 arrows a raid night if i'm lucky. And anyone who would use conservation adorns is doing a poor job of playing their ranger, as a DPS class anyway. I guess if they are mostly RP'ing they would be fine.</p><p>I'd still like to see arrows converted into say, 'quivers' that act like food. Increase the ingrediants needed for each combine and make it so each use of one of these quivers provides arrows for x amount of time. Making it time based instead of object quantity based. At the very least increase the yields of arrow combines so people who want to adventure don't have to craft so much.</p>

[rocthorne999]

<p>Your saying your going thru ~2000 arrows per raid? then again i havent raided at endline with ranger so...that may or may not have something to do with it...then again i didnt go through arrows that quick when i would do dungeons all day.</p>

[Neiloch]

<p>Well monday night i made sure I had a full quiver at the beginning of raids. I then used ACT to add up time in actual combat opposed to just saying I was using arrows for the entire raid time.</p><p>I figured out that I used roughly 34 arrows per minute.</p>

[Landiin]

<p><cite>rocthorne999 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Myth clicky...ammo conservation and arrow reclamation...you will never run out of ammo...oh and if you have yellow slots that arent occupied use conservation adorn.</p></blockquote><p>What is you ma 50? I just just about deplete a quiver of arrows in a night of raiding on my ranger.</p>

[Corwinus]

<p>I concur with Neiloch and Toranx,</p><p>When raiding HM for 4h30 I bring 2 spotted leather quivers (26 slots each so 5200 arrows per quiver).One with titanium field point arrows for trash, the other with spirit blessed field point arrows for names.By the end of the raid session the Titanium arrows quiver is empty and the Spirit blessed quiver is half depleted.</p><p>I have the 5 points in Arrow Reclamation and my unbuffed MA is 445, with various buffs it can jump to the 530-580 range, so it is hitting 6 times consistently (I am not even mentioning flurry and Aoe attack which enhance even more the arrow consumption). This MA range is more and more common for a raid ranger these days and it will be even more when crit mit is removed because we will then be able to readorn to more MA among other things.</p><p>That topic of endless quiver is like beating a dead old horse unfortunately but maybe a mechanic that makes sure that we spend 1 arrow even if we multi attack x6 would already be a plus. I made the cost bearable by making a lvl 90 woodworker, any ranger does at that point, so the idea that if we are given an endless quiver it would "endanger norrath economy" is a moot point. This arrow situation is just an annoyance.</p><p>Cor</p>

[Neiloch]

<p>I don't think they will remove ammo or add endless quiver ever. Even though its technically possible to enact a 'endless quiver' if you want to sacrifice adornment slots just so you don't have grief no other class has to go through for their basic auto attack.</p><p>It's gotten to the point where my ammo is really the only thing I dread seeing. I like all the other general mechanics in the game or have come to accept them, but every time I get excited to play that is instantly knocked down a few notches after I realize I am going to need AT LEAST 2500 arrows ready to go.</p><p>More than anything, ammo should be looked at simply because it is ZERO FUN in a VIDEO GAME. You find me 1 person who TRULY feels that managing, crafting or selling obsurd amounts of ammo is the absolute highlight of playing EQ2 and I will shut up forever about ammo.</p>

[wullailhuit]

<p><img src="http://linkmaster.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/necropost.jpg" /></p>

[SOE-MOD-08]

<p>Please do not bump old threads.  Thank you.  </p>