Summoner Mage Pet Threat [Archive] - EQ2 Forum Archive @ EQ2Wire

Trensharo

07-01-2011, 05:14 AM

No one posts about this, but everyone knows there's an obvious issue with these pets' threat output. I'm not talking about Threat Jumps when EB/SBing or using Defensive stance. I'm talking, just period. The mage pets put out way too much Threat (TPS).I've grouped with some above decent (Good, Great) tanks and even eliminating all factors that can throw it's TPS out of whack (Using Offensive Stance, Getting it Amended and Linked, etc. - That's in addition to groupwide threat reduction buffs) there's simply no logical excuse for the amount of TPS these pets are pulling. If the Summoner didn't become the default next target when the pet pulled, that would be a bit less of an issue, but that's not how it works right now. It still causes some of us to resort to excessive YoYo'ing of Threat-Capped pets, especially in Heroic runs and when learning new Raid Encounters (i.e. Mikill where the tank has to kite the boss instead of straight up tank it). Trying to PUG instances like SC/Ascent/Pools/etc. leaves me tanking more than occasionally anything from single trash pulls to MOB encounters to named/bosses.This has nothing to do with wanting to press one button (Pet Attack) and forget about the pet. Their TPS is not balanced. They pull more TPS than the summoner with more -Threat/Threat Transfer buffs on them in Offensive Stance. I know this, because I never agro on my Necro, ALWAYS through the pet. Someone needs to look into this.Offensive stance needs to be changed to give a negative threat modifier instead of INT, since that is practically useless to the pet, anyways. That, or change it into a Synergism-type Pet Buff with a damage proc (4-5x a minute perhaps). Or, you can just change the -Threat skill in the Summoner tree to give a -Threat Modifier (passive scales with points spent in it) instead of a useless amount of Threat reduction per use? Or perhaps a chance to drop the pet down 1 in the Hate List the way the tank pet's skill bumps it up?I've tried 8 points in the -Threat buff in Heroic. If it helped, I didn't notice it, and those AAs are overbudgeted for what they give, anyways...

Ryai

07-01-2011, 05:48 AM

The pets probably suffer from pre-mythical warlock disease. I'm not positive, but I'm willing to bet there is really screwy mechanics going on with dot ticks from the pet. Especially sda'd ones now.

Jonjon

07-01-2011, 10:25 AM

I never have a problem with pet threat.We actually do damage now, it's not an attack and go afk thing.Magic leash, death prevention, stone skin, and healing on your pet are now part of your rotation.A good tank helps too then you only need to worry about the above spells when you EB 50% of the time, but give your tank a good warning and he wont even lose agro.

Trensharo

07-01-2011, 10:48 AM

<cite>Jonjon wrote:</cite><blockquote>I never have a problem with pet threat.We actually do damage now, it's not an attack and go afk thing.Magic leash, death prevention, stone skin, and healing on your pet are now part of your rotation.A good tank helps too then you only need to worry about the above spells when you EB 50% of the time, but give your tank a good warning and he wont even lose agro.</blockquote>Are you serious?By that, I mean, did you really just bloviate over this thread when you obviously only read the thread title and none of the posts?I'm not a Conjuror, I'm a Necro.The issue is not the Threat-Ups form using multi-hundred-K damage spells. Any sane person would expect to see a noticeable bump in their pet's Threat after Soulburning for 500k damage. The problem is the pet's TPS while DPSing - outside of Soulburning and using Defensive Stances with high Threat Modifiers.I'm not gonna comment on the Magic Leash part...Summoners were never able to perform well by /pet attack /afk, anyways, so I dunno why you're insinuating that is the way people played before they were massively boosted by DoV.The issue is not high damage skills like EB and Soulburn spiking the pet's Threat up. The issue is the pet's ridiculously high sustained TPS compared to both the summoner and other DPS (and non-DPS) classes that put out more damage with a much lower sustained TPS. It should not be that high. The TPS it sustains is not balanced for or even proportional to the damage it does. It should be lower - factorably so, IMO.I doubt you understood that, because you obviously didn't even bother to read my post.I did CC with a warlock with comparable gear last night, and my pet tanked every boss except the herbalist (for obvious reasons). The warlock maybe pulled agro on 5 trash mobs the entire instance despite doing comparable DPS to me and my pet combined. Their agro transfer is not so ridiculously good that this sort of disparity should be expected. Also note that when my pet pulls agro, it's because my pet itself pulled agro - it's own personal TPS is higher than a Warlock doing twice as much DPS as it is doing...I could Lifeburn 3-4 seconds after the pull with this gimpy Bruiser tank, and never pull agro while DPSing on top of the lifeburn, but my pet would still out-TPS me even though I didn't Soulburn and was running Offensive Stance.

CleeGrahamx2099

07-01-2011, 05:43 PM

I will have to keep an eye on Necromancers and Conjurors but if I get what you are saying correctly, then I don't know what the problem is ONLY because I am a tank, and I always amends the Necromancer, not the pet, and I still keep agro on the pet. I never Amends the pet with the necromancer and I keep agro. You are basically saying your pets threat meter is way up even if its just doing regular ole damage right? Just making sure I got all this straight because again, I am a 90 paladin, amends the necromancer, and I NEVER have a problem with the pet. Conjuror on the other hand, I amends the pet and then there we go, I never have a problem with the agro issue. If you are trying to state something different then let me know, but until then, I personally, haven't had a problem with keeping agro from either summoner's pets.

CleeGrahamx2099

07-01-2011, 05:46 PM

Oh, and, I am not trying to cause an argument.

Xillean

07-01-2011, 06:25 PM

Something does feel wrong, My pet pulls agro like its nothing, I have a great mt tanking when im in grp, I know its not him, but I barely do anything, no soulburn or life and the pet yanks it. Id like a redname response, please look into this. Seems to have changed after last weeks hotfix, not sure if it had anything to do iwth it but before last weeks I didnt have any problem with my pet, now it seems to do massive tps just by doing its normal stuff.

Wurm

07-01-2011, 06:50 PM

If I have summoner in the group I put amends on the pet.Most DPS classes just can't compare.

Davngr1

07-01-2011, 10:41 PM

conj pets are suppose to rip agro it's how devs balanced the fact you have two huge pet nukes. spec for the encounter deagro instead of soulburn. necromancer pets should be taking agro, if you are the tank or you are doing something wrong. other than the def stance, the necro pet has no hate buffs on it unlike the conj pet planeshift.edit. hope your conj pet dies as much as i died casting lifeburn.

kdmorse

07-02-2011, 12:14 AM

As a Wizard, I have to agree there's something a bit odd going on here.Pound for pound, summoner pets seem to be generating thread disproportionate to the amount of DPS they're doing. In a zone where I have no hate transfer on me, I can do over twice the DPS a summoner pet does, using no hate tricks, yet the summoner pet is the one ripping aggro off the tank constantly.It became a running joke in one zone, everyone stood well away from the summoners, cause that's where the mob kept turning and blasting. Didn't matter who was the one doing all the DPS...(And no, this wasn't EB. We all know when EB goes off, that's obvious)Now, if pets are 'supposed' to generate a disproportionate amount of hate, then it's all working as designed.-Ken

Trensharo

07-02-2011, 06:06 AM

<cite>Davngr1 wrote:</cite><blockquote>conj pets are suppose to rip agro it's how devs balanced the fact you have two huge pet nukes. spec for the encounter deagro instead of soulburn. necromancer pets should be taking agro, if you are the tank or you are doing something wrong. other than the def stance, the necro pet has no hate buffs on it unlike the conj pet planeshift.edit. hope your conj pet dies as much as i died casting lifeburn.</blockquote>Why even post this? Did you even think about it, at all? This is the dumbest thing I've read on this forum, ever. You have to be trolling us... There's no other explanation.I've already mentioned I've:1. Gotten the pet Amended/Linked (with an Amazing Tank this works decently, barely in some cases).2. Taken 8 points in the -Threat buff (for Mage Pet) in the Heroic Tree instead of 8 Reuse. This helps minimally, and the loss of the reuse probably had more to do with it than the Threat Reduction, IMO.3. Magic Leash is macroed to all my spells. It's cast on cooldown, I also have it on my bar so that I can use it when I have to call the pet off, to get some extra hate reduction alongside the "passive decrease" (since it's not DPSing, the tank is building a bigger lead, and the threat meter goes down).4. I've tried waiting longer. But how long should I wait, until every other DPS in the group has done millions of damage? The pet's TPS is ridiculous, so if you do give a headstart, it often has to be quite a factorable one.Edit: There are no Conjurors in this forum talking about the threat issues. Maybe you die in LB because your healers are as annoyed with you as I am right now. I and the person above your post obviously identified ourselves as Necros.There's no such thing as a pet designed to pull agro. Yes, Soulburn and EB are designed to generate a lot more threat than other spells. They do way more DPS than other spells, so the threat generated per cast has to be substantially higher to keep them in line. Getting threat capped occasionally is fine. Getting threat capped and it being your normal walk in the park is NOT fine.It also causes me (us?) to refuse grouping tanks who can use drops out of a specific heroic simply because they cannot keep agro off a Summoner's pet, which is stupid, but that's just the way the game is [for me] at the moment.

Davngr1

07-02-2011, 07:19 AM

missed the fact you were a necro, figured conj since necros don't have too many pet agro issues. are you using def stance instead of the offensive? this is news to me having necro pet have agro problems. this was usually reserved for planeshifted pets and EB. thought i guess soulburn would cause some problems. clearly this was a failed attempt to balance conj pets that some how nerfed necros since our pets don't have the stoneskins and death prevents. try taking removing other buffs off the pet one by one and see if that makes a difference. there was a bugged attached to the dps/haste buff a while back that would cause the pet jump agro back and forth. maybe it's the same type of bug.

Xillean

07-02-2011, 07:33 AM

Prehaps I dont understand how Peaceful link works or Synergism, but after hours of testing with my guildies, the pet didnt proc either of them a single time. Also they told me that thier spells both say it wont work on a pet, not sure if its always been that way or what, just recently dusted my necro off and began workin on her agian. I of course had those on myself and they worked fine, just did nothing for the pet.I do love the necro class, but something is clearly wrong with the mage pet at least, since I never use the other two I wont speak about them.Hate transfers like Amends and Shoulder the Burden worked correctly or appeared to. -Hate gain is either borked or simply isnt enough, I had our Gaurd put his -hate gain on my pet, had a troub with the grp -33 and the Gaurds grp -25, pet was at -51.8 (remember to account for the plus 21% that our d stance gives if you use the lvl 16 grandmaster) So while capped at -hate gain my pet still pulled agro and my tank was tuanting, snapping the whole nine yards, didnt seem to matter the pet would just yank it back and this was without a soulburn or me using life burn, just the pet doing its thing.With the Gaurds hate transfer Shoulder the burden plus all that neg hate gain my pet staid at 85% on the hate meter, forget soul burning, and dont get me started on Magic leash its a pos. It needs to be a postion lowering ability at minimum imo. I think it was Cyan above that mentioned about the SDA and I have to agree, before they changed it my pet barely budged out of 30 hate unless i hit soulburn and yeah we all know its going to climb the hate meter on that, but now it seems to have a insane tps and pulls agro just using its aa nukes and normal attacks.And these tests were done both via a training dummy and in Kael, Temple of Rallos and Ice Shard.Edited for typos because I fail at typing <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" />

Trensharo

07-02-2011, 09:34 AM

I know Synergism says it doesn't work on pets (have an Illy with the buff), but I'm not sure about Peaceful Link.@ Person above. All the questions you're asking me have already been answered in this thread, by me. Read my earlier posts.The issue isn't exclusive to Necro pets. Conjuror pets have the same issue. Even without EBing and SBing, their pets also have insane TPS.The only thing different is that their pets generate a bit more due to EB being cast from the pet, while Necros cast LB from the Summoner. Their Threat issues IRT EB are probably exacerbated by the overall TPS<img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />PS imbalance.

feldon30

07-02-2011, 10:59 AM

Wow some folks in this thread don't have a clue. I've seen group after group where the Conjuror fire pet has agro the entire time except those few seconds when the Fighter snaps agro and then it's right back on the Conjy pet soon enough. Might as well just buff the Conjy fire pet and let it tank.

melaine_dvarvensplitter

07-02-2011, 12:27 PM

I have ran into that issue on my Conj pet as well and I am not raid geared at all nor do I have 300 AA sitting on 270ish. My pet is mastered and I have put points into everything I can for my pet.I think a dehate would be very beneficial for the Off stance and actually give me a reason to use it.

Loldawg

07-02-2011, 12:35 PM

Peaceful Link doesn't work on pets.

Davngr1

07-02-2011, 03:50 PM

in your situation i would run some simple test to see if the pet bug is obvious or not. test#1 run act and cast on a dummy for about a minute then posses minion and do the same trying to keep the damage about the same► see how tps numbers stack uptest#2 run act and ask a tank with hate transfer (or box one) to place hate transfer on your self then on your pet► take notice of how the threat meter behaves and also see if the tps generated by the tank, you, or pet changed.run these test with all pet buffs then run them taking one pet buff off, reaply and run test again taking another (different) pet buff off► see if this makes an obvious difference, if it does then it's one of the pet buffs that are bugged and just don't use it till fixed. also try to keep track of your pets hits and what hit "rips" agro. some of the pet spells carry debuff's, debuff's carry their own hate generation mechanic that goes above and beyoned spell damage. perhaps when dot SDA was added, some how that debuff hate mechanic started being doubled as well. also keep in mind that the pet is a warlock and when it comes to dots and AE hate increases exponentially, not in a linear fashion like other hate generation.

Davngr1

07-02-2011, 03:55 PM

<cite>melaine_dvarvensplitter wrote:</cite><blockquote>I have ran into that issue on my Conj pet as well and I am not raid geared at all nor do I have 300 AA sitting on 270ish. My pet is mastered and I have put points into everything I can for my pet.I think a dehate would be very beneficial for the Off stance and actually give me a reason to use it.</blockquote> that's a good idea for conj but this seems to be a bug fo some sort. there's no reason for necro pets to be taking agro like that, conj on the other hand have always had agro issues because of planeshift and a useless offensive stance.

Felshades

07-02-2011, 04:00 PM

<cite>Cyan@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>The pets probably suffer from pre-mythical warlock disease. I'm not positive, but I'm willing to bet there is really screwy mechanics going on with dot ticks from the pet. Especially sda'd ones now.</blockquote>I like your warlock comment. That's what I called it. lol

Shotneedle

07-05-2011, 02:25 AM

The only time I (as my monk) ever have issue with conj pets is def stance SB followed by a PS/SDA'd EB. And even then any snap takes it back and keeps it on. Necro pets don't rip.Also, if I don't have a dirge in my group it can get really bad w/ conjs <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />.

Trensharo

07-05-2011, 02:46 AM

I'm well aware that better gear mitigates the issue and at the upper eschelon of progression it is less of an issue.However, for the Average player (i.e. not you), it's a real issue. Pets get threat-capped routinely.Your monk probably does 30% or more DPS than the tanks many of us group or raid with, which makes it very different.Mage damage tends to scale up faster than tank TPS. They tend to gain more from gear at the lower-mid end of raid progression, summoners especially.In any case, the pet TPS is terrible and finding yourself in a situation like this more than occasionally is stupid:<img src="http://i56.tinypic.com/2exncbt.png" width="475" height="88" />Kinda hard to Soulburn with that, and even Consumption is dangeous unless it's coupled with Elemental Toxicity. I've tried pushing the envelop. It doesn't work, and it can wipe whole raid groups (or raids).The threat issue is also a lot less apparent when you have < 1 minute kill speed on the MOBs we're killing.

Oink

07-05-2011, 02:47 AM

The only time I see pet's chain-ripping agro is bad or underbuffed tanks.The only thing this thread is going to accomplish is having pet DPS nerfed to solve your inability to find appropriate groups as that's the only tool SOE knows how to use.The problem isn't with pet's threat... it's you and your group.

Trensharo

07-05-2011, 02:48 AM

<cite>Oink@Blackburrow wrote:</cite><blockquote>The only time I see pet's chain-ripping agro is bad or underbuffed tanks.The only thing this thread is going to accomplish is having pet DPS nerfed to solve your inability to find appropriate groups as that's the only tool SOE knows how to use.The problem isn't with pet's threat... it's you and your group.</blockquote>I can assure you the problem isn't with me <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" />And I can assure you the problem isn't with my group.I shouldn't have to farm gear for months to not facepull raid mobs or heroic bosses off decent tanks.Also, I'm not the only one who posted that an issue exists.If they offload some of the DPS to the summoner so that the pet isn't ramping up so much threat, then that would be totally acceptable to me.

Oink

07-05-2011, 03:13 AM

I have 4 Summoners on my main account, and another 2 accounts each with level 90 summoners. My main raid character is a summoner and I raid with two other summoners. I run my pet in defensive stance and soulburn every 30 seconds, It doesn't rip agro, nor do the other summoners' pets in raid.The last ringwar I attended, my pet did with 23.5 million damage w/ -2.7million threat amost exclusively from Elemental Toxicity, and the most hated tanks having 12 million damage w/ +3.25million hate and 10.5 million damage w/ +3.5 million threat.This sucky holiday weekend showing where me and the pet did 27% of the total damage, yet my pet didn't rip agro. Hate modifiers work.If you're having issues, it's group setup or a horrible tank.If you don't have group dehate, your scout pet is there for that.

Boli32

07-05-2011, 06:11 AM

This is more of a raid issue than herioc but I was discussing with our conjurer and he was saying he prefers to put his mage pet in "defensive stance"; you know the one with the massive hate gain.As the pets survibility survives MUCH better with increased health and token mitigation and works out as more dps vs the int gain from the offensive stance.Since all pets in raids are pretty much 1 shot affairs the issue of ALL pet survbibility in raids will need to be looked at otherwise no matter how much summoner pet hate is adjusted you are still going to need to toggle the hate gain stance just to have them survive.And this is true of ALL pets... I don't want to think about how long my little "Holy Avenger" dies ; often surviving less time than it took to cast him. Considering he doesn't crit or actually do much at all this makes him, indeed *all* dumbfire pets useless to cast other than a gimic.

Trensharo

07-05-2011, 09:01 AM

<cite>Oink@Blackburrow wrote:</cite><blockquote>If you don't have group dehate, your scout pet is there for that.</blockquote>You're an idiot. I'm done with you.This thread is about the pet's TPS and its balance IRT the damage it does, which is NOT correct at the moment. Your total % of raid damage has nothign to do with it. You can be in a terrible raid where the other DPS underperform and end up with a high damage %. It's totally unrelated. I'm talking about the amount of TPS the pet sustains in relation to the DPS it sustained, even outside of Soulburning adn EBing.Also, I don't care about emo endgamers who don't wanna have their epeeens circumcised. I really don't.I care about them fixing obvious issues that it seems only a certain segment of players are trying to make seem like it doesn't exist (TBQH).Also, ALL summoners I know of use Defensive Stance on their pets. I mentioned trying it without because obviously I have tried different combinations of buffs/stances/etc. to mitigate the issue a bit. I use the level 14 GM one, when I run with it.It's not just a raid issue. It's also a heroic issue. When you try to do harder heroics like Drunder instances it can be a huge issue. Don't try to take an issue that affects everyone and limit it to a specific part of the game so that you can claim superior knowledge over other players you've out-progressed thus far (nice tactic, though).Again, there's nothing wrong with our players. Stop trying to make it look like obvious problem is obviously the player's fault. Total Damage Pet + Summoner doesn't <censored> matter because the pet and the summoner share different threat positions until the pet pulls and gets killed.

Trensharo

07-05-2011, 09:06 AM

<cite>Boli32 wrote:</cite><blockquote>This is more of a raid issue than herioc but I was discussing with our conjurer and he was saying he prefers to put his mage pet in "defensive stance"; you know the one with the massive hate gain.As the pets survibility survives MUCH better with increased health and token mitigation and works out as more dps vs the int gain from the offensive stance.Since all pets in raids are pretty much 1 shot affairs the issue of ALL pet survbibility in raids will need to be looked at otherwise no matter how much summoner pet hate is adjusted you are still going to need to toggle the hate gain stance just to have them survive.And this is true of ALL pets... I don't want to think about how long my little "Holy Avenger" dies ; often surviving less time than it took to cast him. Considering he doesn't crit or actually do much at all this makes him, indeed *all* dumbfire pets useless to cast other than a gimic.</blockquote>There's no issue with Summoner pet surviveability. However, if you go to the Illusionist forum there's a thread there where you can discuss stuff about that.This thread is about the pets' rediculous TPS in relation to the DPS they put out.

Vaylan77

07-05-2011, 09:34 AM

check the relevant class threads. there are posts about that. conjurer and necro pets pull agrro even if they don't defend and your far away out of mob range. it's a known issue. your tank cannot hold aggro because every mobs hates your pet and runs directly towards it. scout pet in my eyes pulls the most aggro - in off stance (so no taunting) and not attacking, not defeding me or itself.

Davngr1

07-05-2011, 12:33 PM

yea, there is somethinng screwy with pet hate right now. someone should run some test and pm one of the devs the info so they can figure out what is wrong. if this was some sort of "summoner" nerf then i guess it's something that summoners will have to live with from now on. it woulden't be the first time that devs changed mechanics to make new aa needed.

Boli32

07-05-2011, 01:10 PM

<cite>Trensharo@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Boli32 wrote:</cite><blockquote>This is more of a raid issue than herioc but I was discussing with our conjurer and he was saying he prefers to put his mage pet in "defensive stance"; you know the one with the massive hate gain.As the pets survibility survives MUCH better with increased health and token mitigation and works out as more dps vs the int gain from the offensive stance.Since all pets in raids are pretty much 1 shot affairs the issue of ALL pet survbibility in raids will need to be looked at otherwise no matter how much summoner pet hate is adjusted you are still going to need to toggle the hate gain stance just to have them survive.And this is true of ALL pets... I don't want to think about how long my little "Holy Avenger" dies ; often surviving less time than it took to cast him. Considering he doesn't crit or actually do much at all this makes him, indeed *all* dumbfire pets useless to cast other than a gimic.</blockquote>There's no issue with Summoner pet surviveability. However, if you go to the Illusionist forum there's a thread there where you can discuss stuff about that.This thread is about the pets' rediculous TPS in relation to the DPS they put out.</blockquote>Defensive stance on pet.. the *only* reason summers use the stance is to help their pet survive.It also massively increases the hate of the pet skewing the entire pet hate issue. As I said this is more an issue for raiders than people in groups as raiders are more likely to use the stance for the health gain.The spike damage from pets is rough to deal with at times, but unlike wizards manaburning they also have increased rather than decreated hate more often than not.

Geothe

07-05-2011, 01:15 PM

<cite>Trensharo@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>You're an idiot. I'm done with you.[......]Also, ALL summoners I know of use Defensive Stance on their pets. </blockquote>You use Defensive stance for your Pet?Been a long time since I've played my since my conjy but Defensive stance gives the pet percentaged based hate INCREASE, so of course its going to be pulling agro a lot easier.

Nrgy

07-05-2011, 02:23 PM

First off ... (after reading this thread) ... I have to think there are quite a few factors at work. I'll point out the accutate ones first as not to become a total flameboy, but I think there needs to be a little common ground set.<ul><li>Summoner Pets, since Shared Stats, do a ton more DPS... with DPS comes TPS.</li><li>Summoner Pets do have some big nukes... which generate big threat spikes</li><li>Necro Pets (specifically) have a good amount of SDA, they spell double A LOT. and I'd guess Conjy's SDA more then Necros</li><li>Def Stance Master @ 90 adds something like 46% hate gain (iirc) ... and should Never be used</li><li>Def Stance Grand master @ 14 adds only 21% hate gain (iirc) ... and should be used all of the time including in Heric groups and raids.</li><li>Magic Leash only reduces pet threat by a very small amount ( around 5,000) <ul><li>This AA should have been adjusted with Shared Stats.</li><li>This spell should be percentage based not a flat number</li><li>This spell should have more AA's make a bigger difference then a few hundred hate points as it does now.</li><li>This spell should have a threat position reduction added to it.</li><li>This spell should be case every time its hot.</li><li>This spell SUCKS in its current form</li></ul></li><li>Raid Tank DO NOT lose aggro to summoner pets</li><li>Good Tanks DO NOT lose aggro to summoner pets</li><li>Ripping Aggro once-in-a-while does not constitue a problem</li><li>Tanks which lose aggro to summoner pets all-the-time need to do a few things<ul><li>Gear up more</li><li>Use more TPS tools </li><li>Don't complain becasue they didn't follow the two above points</li></ul></li><li>Summoners in groups with tanks who lose aggro to pets all-the-time need to L2Control thier pets threat better</li><li>Other utility classes (Coercer, Illy, Paly, Dirge, etc.) have many hate transfer tools and are good to group with.</li><li>personal observation ... I don't ever see any summoner pets tanking PQ Epics ... hmmm ... just saying.</li></ul>The thread in the class forums about Pets getting aggo in situations when they are not attacking, not protecting caster or self and not buffing any group member boil down to a bug which very few people have experienced and nobody can duplicate. That thread should be used for nothing other then a /bug report. Neither summoners whom I've spoken with or myself have ever experienced a case where a pet gets aggo when they are not 'protecting' or 'attacking'.<ol><li>Either ... Summoner's who's Pets rip aggro *all the time* out gear/skill the Tank</li><li>OR ... See #1</li></ol>In short ... I feel (IMO) that the OP is crying wolf on summoner pet threat. I would like more tools to control pet threat or have the tools which we do have scale better. Otherwise pet threat for both summoners is ok in its current state.<cite>Geothe wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Trensharo@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>You're an idiot. I'm done with you.[......]Also, ALL summoners I know of use Defensive Stance on their pets. </blockquote>You use Defensive stance for your Pet?Been a long time since I've played my since my conjy but Defensive stance gives the pet percentaged based hate INCREASE, so of course its going to be pulling agro a lot easier.</blockquote>Defensive Stance increases Pet Hit Points by 16% @ Master and 16.5% at Grand Master. Providing more pet hitpoints and more DPS on health pool based spells such as Soulburn. The hate gain portion of the Def Stance is minimul (21% iirc) compared to the advantages of having nukes hit much harder. Tank and Utility classes have tools which EASILY offset this.

Ragnaphore

07-05-2011, 02:32 PM

<cite>Boli32 wrote </cite><blockquote> Defensive stance on pet.. the *only* reason summers use the stance is to help their pet survive.</blockquote> No, not even close. When not soloing, most summoners don't use Def. Stance to help their pet survive.Def. Stance = more HPs for the pet = bigger Soulburn = more DPS.

Laiina

07-05-2011, 04:18 PM

Laiina

07-05-2011, 04:21 PM

For the pet Defensive stance you can use the lowest level Grandmaster one (level 12?) and get the same buffs with less aggro.

Nrgy

07-05-2011, 04:52 PM

There is a balance between Tank Aggro and group DPS .. and the summoner pet certainly factors into that. That being said, if the Tank you are grouping with (in general) can't hold aggro from DPS (in general) then there are larger issues at work and they are not due to the pets TPS via DPS.Either you (the DPS class) are too powerful for the Tank or the Tank is not powerful enough. the OP is having issue with Gear balancing not pet aggro.This could also be an issue of L2P class skill and before it starts we should all agree that 'saying' your friend/buddy/guild mate or raid MT is skilled at thier class is not an opinion we care to comment on.<ul><li>Tanks have one job and thats to Hold Aggro</li><li>DPS classes have one job and thats to do DPS.<ul><li>for every threat spike a DPS class has there is a snap to counter it.</li></ul></li></ul>Our Tank rocks! but loses aggro to the DPS class *all the time* is not an agrument for broken mechanics.I was in a group the other day where the Illy would 'tank' (steal aggro) about 50% of the time..... broken mechanic? Weak Tank? I can tell you that the Illy was x4 Raid geared and the Tank was PQ + Heroic geared ... GO FIGURE.<cite>Laiina wrote:</cite><blockquote>For the pet Defensive stance you can use the lowest level Grandmaster one (level 12?) and get the same buffs with less aggro.</blockquote>You get Better buffs with less aggro ... since summoners are only using Def Stance for the HP bonus.using the GM (lv14) version your pet gains 16.5% hit points and adds 21% (iirc) hateusing the M1(lv88?) version your pet gains 16% hit points and adds 46% (iirc) hate

Nrgy

07-05-2011, 05:02 PM

<cite>Laiina wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Davngr1 wrote:</cite><blockquote>conj pets are suppose to rip agro it's how devs balanced the fact you have two huge pet nukes. spec for the encounter deagro instead of soulburn. necromancer pets should be taking agro, if you are the tank or you are doing something wrong. other than the def stance, the necro pet has no hate buffs on it unlike the conj pet planeshift.edit. hope your conj pet dies as much as i died casting lifeburn.</blockquote>If it is balanced due to the pet nukes, then why can my pet pull aggro from a mage that is doing 2x the damage?</blockquote>This is a topic about Summoner Pets pulling aggro from group or raid tanks not Mages.Some mages have class specific hate reduction ... not to mention the almighty Bewilderment. All may not be as it appears. If you are Duo'ing with a 'mage' (whatever that means) and you're at it for a fairly long period of time and your pet rips aggro 90% of the time regardless of how much DPS the other mage is doing ... well I can tell you that this is going to be true nearly 100% of the time.On top of all that summoner pets do get anything to change tier position on the hate list outside of the tier3 heroic tree AA... If a Wizzy hits w/ and Nuke and then hits bewilderment they are going to be below the pet on the hate list.However, if you do a Lifeburn on a solo mob go ahead and see if your pet can steal that aggro .. I doubt even a tier 10 PC will help that pet get the aggro.There are two things to consider ..<ul><li>Threat -- the amount of hate generated on a mob</li><li>Hate list -- The order in which a mob will attack </li></ul>You can have a higher threat number then another player but be lower in the hate list. In such cases the mob will use the Hate List to determine the order of attack.

Geothe

07-05-2011, 05:14 PM

....Seriously, The thread is complaining about Summoner pets generating too much agro and everyone is taking it par for the course that you must use defensive stance for the pet (which generates at a min 21% more agro!).Simple solution:If you're pulling too much agro, drop defensive stance. LOLBut honestly, the entire premise of complaining about agro generation when you are personally buffing the agro generation of your pet is quite laughable.

Trensharo

07-05-2011, 10:04 PM

<cite>Boli32 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Trensharo@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Boli32 wrote:</cite><blockquote>This is more of a raid issue than herioc but I was discussing with our conjurer and he was saying he prefers to put his mage pet in "defensive stance"; you know the one with the massive hate gain.As the pets survibility survives MUCH better with increased health and token mitigation and works out as more dps vs the int gain from the offensive stance.Since all pets in raids are pretty much 1 shot affairs the issue of ALL pet survbibility in raids will need to be looked at otherwise no matter how much summoner pet hate is adjusted you are still going to need to toggle the hate gain stance just to have them survive.And this is true of ALL pets... I don't want to think about how long my little "Holy Avenger" dies ; often surviving less time than it took to cast him. Considering he doesn't crit or actually do much at all this makes him, indeed *all* dumbfire pets useless to cast other than a gimic.</blockquote>There's no issue with Summoner pet surviveability. However, if you go to the Illusionist forum there's a thread there where you can discuss stuff about that.This thread is about the pets' rediculous TPS in relation to the DPS they put out.</blockquote>Defensive stance on pet.. the *only* reason summers use the stance is to help their pet survive.It also massively increases the hate of the pet skewing the entire pet hate issue. As I said this is more an issue for raiders than people in groups as raiders are more likely to use the stance for the health gain.The spike damage from pets is rough to deal with at times, but unlike wizards manaburning they also have increased rather than decreated hate more often than not.</blockquote>Defensive Stance adds 16.5% HP, which boosts Soulburn. That's why Summoner's use it. Please do at least a trivial level of research before trying to disagree with people. The primary reason why people use Defensive Stance is for Soulburn. SUMMONER pets don't have any huge surviveability issues - at least not in the content I'm clearing, outside of Mobs you have to hump which riposte the pet if you do not Anchor it smartly.GM Defensive Stance (16.5% Max HP) + Rending Adornment (10% Max HP) is a huge boost to Soulburn. That's why I use it, when I can.My current work around for the threat cap issue is to hope the pet doesn't get capped for the first 50% and just dismiss it and pocket out a new one for the latter half, and continue on. In Heroics I typically just tank the boss if the pet rips.No a pet won't tank a raid boss. It will turn it and either kill someone or get killed instantly unless the tank is quick on a snap.

Trensharo

07-05-2011, 10:18 PM

<cite>Geothe wrote:</cite><blockquote>....Seriously, The thread is complaining about Summoner pets generating too much agro and everyone is taking it par for the course that you must use defensive stance for the pet (which generates at a min 21% more agro!).Simple solution:If you're pulling too much agro, drop defensive stance. LOLBut honestly, the entire premise of complaining about agro generation when you are personally buffing the agro generation of your pet is quite laughable.</blockquote>Please read the thread (the part about testing with and without defensive stance), you're looking pretty trollish, ATM. LOL? If you go to a target dummy the pet will repeatedly rip agro off the summoner in Offensive stance (if not outright hold it until the dummy dies) despite doing significantly less DPS than the summoner. This also happens 85% of the time when I tank Bookie in Spires.To the other person, class specific hate reduction is not a factor. A mage doing 200k DPS should not be out-TPS by a pet doing 60-75k DPS - Shared Stats or not. It's pretty simple. The DPS spread is too large, not even Lv 14 GM Defensive Stance (which still leaves the mage pet with a negative hate mod when in a raid/raid group) is enough to push the mage pet up that high. It simply should not be sustaining that high a TPS. Shared stats has nothing to do with it. The pets don't do enough DPS to out-TPS wizards doing almost 200k, with less than half that DPS. It defies logic, and it's indefensible.The pet's spells are simply generating too much threat per cast, and it needs to be adjusted (down).For fully geared guilds killing mobs in record times this may be less of an issue. For guilds working up through content gearing up (and yes, drop rates are random and some gear disparity may be present for a while within the raid) it can be ( <- to not speak for everyone) an issue.

Trensharo

07-05-2011, 10:35 PM

<cite>Nrgy wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Laiina wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Davngr1 wrote:</cite><blockquote>conj pets are suppose to rip agro it's how devs balanced the fact you have two huge pet nukes. spec for the encounter deagro instead of soulburn. necromancer pets should be taking agro, if you are the tank or you are doing something wrong. other than the def stance, the necro pet has no hate buffs on it unlike the conj pet planeshift.edit. hope your conj pet dies as much as i died casting lifeburn.</blockquote>If it is balanced due to the pet nukes, then why can my pet pull aggro from a mage that is doing 2x the damage?</blockquote>This is a topic about Summoner Pets pulling aggro from group or raid tanks not Mages.Some mages have class specific hate reduction ... not to mention the almighty Bewilderment. All may not be as it appears. If you are Duo'ing with a 'mage' (whatever that means) and you're at it for a fairly long period of time and your pet rips aggro 90% of the time regardless of how much DPS the other mage is doing ... well I can tell you that this is going to be true nearly 100% of the time.On top of all that summoner pets do get anything to change tier position on the hate list outside of the tier3 heroic tree AA... If a Wizzy hits w/ and Nuke and then hits bewilderment they are going to be below the pet on the hate list.However, if you do a Lifeburn on a solo mob go ahead and see if your pet can steal that aggro .. I doubt even a tier 10 PC will help that pet get the aggro.There are two things to consider ..<ul><li>Threat -- the amount of hate generated on a mob</li><li>Hate list -- The order in which a mob will attack </li></ul>You can have a higher threat number then another player but be lower in the hate list. In such cases the mob will use the Hate List to determine the order of attack.</blockquote>Doing a LB on a solo mob is a terrible example, and I should not have to explain why... In fact, it's beyond terrible and the pet will probably kill it before you can get the LB off anyways.On anything you can tank with a mage pet, they are known for being exceptional tanks due to the amount of TPS they sustain, especially coupled with their DPS (which helped boost it up, yes, which explains some of the hysteria in this thread (they will nerf us, whaa! etc.)) now with shared stats.As for the Scout pet thing (which I quoted) the reason why the Scout pet won't ever pull agro is cause it does less than half the DPS of the mage pet.Pet and Owner share seperate threat pools and hate positions, and going from a 60-70k DPS pet to a 25-30k DPS pet with 33.6% Hate Reduction (on top of Group Buffs, etc.) is of course not going to pull agro off a MOB - you can use level 90 Master Defensive and it won't pull, cause it's beyond terrible and beyond useless. The issue isn't ME pulling or sustaining a ridiculous TPS level, it's the pet. You will not outTPS your pet over a sustained period, Ever. using a solo MOB example is terrible for that reason. It will die before you can get the LB off in worse cause, and way before the LB ticks out in the best case.I don't know any summoner that uses a Scout pet to raid or do Heroics.I have Magic Leash macroed to Pandemic and Blood Coil, so it's pretty much cast on cooldown.The issue is pet sustained pet TPS, as a result of the amount of threat they generate per point of damage. I don't have a Trensharo Leash and my pet still out-TPSes me when I spam Magic Leash even tho it does factorably less DPS than me.If you think they will nerf you instead of adjust the threat values just say it. Don't just come in with the token (tank is bad, group is bad, player is bad) responses and cloud the issue with "facts" that have no bearing on the subject and tarded examples like LBing a solo MOB.

Oink

07-06-2011, 01:24 AM

Fact is, some of the best players in the game have already come here and said there are no issues with pets taking and holding agro off good tanks w/ proper group setups.This is the first time 4 years, that summoners who solo epics are finally having their fighter pet hold agro off them, and you want that taken away.Since the introduction of critical strikes, summoner pets are finally to the point where they can do as much damage as the summoner themselves, and the only way to solve your threat issue, which isn't bugged, is to lower their damage. There is no seperate hidden threat values in spells.With GU60, pretty much everything summoners have been asking for for years have been granted to them: Shared stats, DoT tick cap removal, DoTs double-atacking, etc. And yes, your idiocy is going to get summoners who know what they're doing screwed over.As you stated, the scout pet has -33% group dehate, stone skins, natural AE protection, and won't AE mobs. After years of summoners being called utility classes, we actually have some. Yes it won't do the DPS the mage pet does, but you can't have everything. If your group has no other hate management utility, it's up to you to solve the issue, not complain about your pet ripping agro.You're more than welcome to pick Energy Clash instead of Soulburn if need positional hate change for your pet. The fact that spells like Peaceful Link doesn't work on pets since DoV is by design, based on current and appropriate threat generation.

Trensharo

07-06-2011, 04:36 AM

When was the last time you did more than forgettable DPS to a MOB while a tank pet is tanking it and had it hold agro off of you? The melee pets are broken beyond belief and the tank pet barely casts any of its taunts. It's ability to tank is completely dependent on the Summoner's choice to drive their damage output into the ground and hate list placement bumps in the Summoner and Heroic Tree (and bewilderment). Obviously Conjurors have it better than we do here due to EB and things like Plane Shift (as far as threat generation of thier tank pet is concerned).Fact is, the Mage pet TPS is disproportionate. Telling me how good someone else is and how they have no issues in their 50 second raid encounters does not negate that. Just because a few end-gamers think it's fine and are afraid they will be nerfed doesn't make it so.I didn't say the threat issue was BUGGED. I said the pets generate disproportionately high threat compared to a PC with similar buffs who does significantly more DPS. There's a difference, and mouthbreathers seem incapable of making that distinguishment.You: You're saying pet threat is bugged.Me: Pet threat is not tuned correctly. They are generating disproportionately high threat per point of damage compared to player characters. A pet doing 70k DPS should not be out-TPSing a DPS class doing over twice that. It shouldn't be possible, even with class-specific dehate AAs. The rift is just too large for it to overcome the DPS difference. The TPS should be toned down. They don't need to nerf damage to do that, nor did I say they should (however, offloading some damage to the Summoner would be an acceptable workaround, I did state that).The scout pet is useless. Don't talk about it. The -33.6% hate has to do with anything because a pet doing that little DPS will NEVER pull agro anyways. I've already stated I don't pull agro through my player character, even tho I factorably outDPS the pet and routinely fire off Lifeburn as the second damage skill when I engage a raid boss (after Blood Coil to get the pet in combat, etc.). Necros already have an AoE prevention that's just as good with virtually no cost (due to Lich Siphon) and no range restriction like Bubble. The buffs it provides outside of the one every pet gets and the stoneskin are of little worth to anyone but other summoners who undoubtedly will gladly let you summon it (if your raid leader is bad enough to agree to such a thing) but will never agree to summon it themselves, for reasons I've stated.I've already stated that I work around the issue. Working around the ISSUE doesn't mean it is NOT an ISSUE, however.There's nothing appropriate about a pet doing 70k DPS having a higher TPS than a Wizard doing 200k. No one expects a Chanter to pull agro before a Wizard, but it's okay for a pet to pull agro over a Wizard when even chanters can double their DPS at end-game?To state this is appropriate is just ... I won't go there. I'm sure you can finish that thought for me. The word filter on this forum will certainly pwn me, anyways.The pet deagro buff and Energy Clash are at the worse places in the wrong AA tree. Maybe they should replace Enhance Hearts with the Deagro Buff and put Energy Clash (however, only -1 position) in the place of Magic Leash. That would make a bit more sense, IMO. That, or they can allow Bewilderment to also decrease pet hate position as well as the Summoner's. It is not like I have just cried about the issue and not tried to give any suggestions (that it seems have been given in some cases, years ago).

Elskidor

07-06-2011, 11:36 AM

Mage pet is really screwy this expansion for sure. I play with a Conj in my group often and that pet always steals aggro and dies when the heavy DPSing begins. When I'm on my Warlock I can out dps the conj, and manage to stay safe away from stealing aggro unless I'm trying. He ends up having to do alot less dps just to assure the tank doesn't lose aggro. Very uncool. Then again most of the classes this year are totally messed up. The Summoners got a nice upgrade this expansion all except for this BIG problem.

Nrgy

07-06-2011, 11:40 AM

<cite>Trensharo@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote> When was the last time you did more than forgettable DPS to a MOB while a tank pet is tanking it and had it hold agro off of you? The melee pets are broken beyond belief and the tank pet barely casts any of its taunts. It's ability to tank is completely dependent on the Summoner's choice to drive their damage output into the ground and hate list placement bumps in the Summoner and Heroic Tree (and bewilderment). Obviously Conjurors have it better than we do here due to EB and things like Plane Shift (as far as threat generation of thier tank pet is concerned). Fact is, the Mage pet TPS is disproportionate. Telling me how good someone else is and how they have no issues in their 50 second raid encounters does not negate that. Just because a few end-gamers think it's fine and are afraid they will be nerfed doesn't make it so. I didn't say the threat issue was BUGGED. I said the pets generate disproportionately high threat compared to a PC with similar buffs who does significantly more DPS. There's a difference, and mouthbreathers seem incapable of making that distinguishment. You: You're saying pet threat is bugged. Me: Pet threat is not tuned correctly. They are generating disproportionately high threat per point of damage compared to player characters. A pet doing 70k DPS should not be out-TPSing a DPS class doing over twice that. It shouldn't be possible, even with class-specific dehate AAs. The rift is just too large for it to overcome the DPS difference. The TPS should be toned down. They don't need to nerf damage to do that, nor did I say they should (however, offloading some damage to the Summoner would be an acceptable workaround, I did state that). -> You have heard of Hate Reduction Adornments, Hate Reduction Spells, Abilities, Buffs, etc … Players tend to use the abilities they have available to them in intellectual ways, pets do not. Complaining that a player is using more of their abilities then their pure DPS spells is ridiculous. If a smart player buffs up their own Hate Reduction to -50% (easy) and uses positional hate list abilities then a 50K-Pet > 200K-Wizzy … if someone doesn’t realize this then this thread won’t help. The scout pet is useless. Don't talk about it. The -33.6% hate has to do with anything because a pet doing that little DPS will NEVER pull agro anyways. I've already stated I don't pull agro through my player character, even tho I factorably outDPS the pet and routinely fire off Lifeburn as the second damage skill when I engage a raid boss (after Blood Coil to get the pet in combat, etc.). Necros already have an AoE prevention that's just as good with virtually no cost (due to Lich Siphon) and no range restriction like Bubble. The buffs it provides outside of the one every pet gets and the stoneskin are of little worth to anyone but other summoners who undoubtedly will gladly let you summon it (if your raid leader is bad enough to agree to such a thing) but will never agree to summon it themselves, for reasons I've stated. -> The Scout pet is summoned to help the group not the Necro’s personal DPS … The rest of the above is pretty much whining. I've already stated that I work around the issue. Working around the ISSUE doesn't mean it is NOT an ISSUE, however. -> There is no ISSUE … These are the mechanic. The entire game is based on threat. Threat, admittedly, is difficult to balance and has been looked at and adjusted many times over the years. If anyone class is going to ever have anything to complain about its going to be the fighter class with healers being a close second. Summoners have nothing to complain about as they have many tools and attack styles to overcome nearly any Threat miscalculation. NO ISSUE HERE! There's nothing appropriate about a pet doing 70k DPS having a higher TPS than a Wizard doing 200k. No one expects a Chanter to pull agro before a Wizard, but it's okay for a pet to pull agro over a Wizard when even chanters can double their DPS at end-game? To state this is appropriate is just ... I won't go there. I'm sure you can finish that thought for me. The word filter on this forum will certainly pwn me, anyways. -> Again …. Players can think... Pets can not… but apparently the first part is not inclusive. The pet deagro buff and Energy Clash are at the worse places in the wrong AA tree. Maybe they should replace Enhance Hearts with the Deagro Buff and put Energy Clash (however, only -1 position) in the place of Magic Leash. That would make a bit more sense, IMO. That, or they can allow Bewilderment to also decrease pet hate position as well as the Summoner's. It is not like I have just cried about the issue and not tried to give any suggestions (that it seems have been given in some cases, years ago). -> The worst places… Joke right? IMO Lifeburn is to far down the tree also. I mean, come on, I have to spend 20 AA points before I can get it. Oh, and yeah, I think the Heroic tier 3 Hate Debuf should be moved to the Summoners tab under Intelligents because that’s where it makes more sense to me, IMO. -> Making Bewilderment apply to the pets hate position pretty much sums up someone’s entire understanding of a class or game mechanics and proves that there is none (<- this should be in caps). That statement is either so singularly focused on a personal specific playstyle or one of the grossest misunderstandings of mechanics I’ve ever read on a forum.</blockquote>I'll sum this up by repeating myself and others .... There is no issue with summoner pets aggro, specifically Necro pet aggro. Necormancers have many tools and abilities to manage threat. IMO, Necro's can manage thier own threat and the threat of thier pet better then any class in the game. For what its worth I play both a Necro and a Coercer @ 90, so I know a little something about what I'm talking about as threat is concerned. However, I am no expert. I would imagine that an expert would have even an easier time then me.

Wasuna

07-06-2011, 11:58 AM

I'm a Guardian. I'm 90/300. I have over 43K HP solo. I can hold agro off a 120K DPS Assassin in my sleep with me doing 20-30K DPS. I have no issues with necros and I have been in groups with them doing over 100K DPS. I have no issues with wizards even with thet manaburn (unless they do it when I pull... dumb wizards). I rarely have a dirge and coercer and usually only have 0-1 hate buffs. I'm 40% Hate agin solo form AA and Adornments.I HATE conjour mage pets. I can not keep agro off them for anything. No matter if I Shoulder the Burden them, moderate them... I just give up. I put my avoidance buff on them and try and keep my snap agros up to pull agro back.It has been this way for years. My wife has a conjour alt that she likes to play and I CAN NOT KEEP AGRO off that darn mage pet. Never could. Now with soulburn and all the extra DPS summoners do it's even worse.

Nrgy

07-06-2011, 05:53 PM

<cite>Wasuna wrote:</cite><blockquote>I'm a Guardian. I'm 90/300. I have over 43K HP solo. I can hold agro off a 120K DPS Assassin in my sleep with me doing 20-30K DPS. I have no issues with necros and I have been in groups with them doing over 100K DPS. I have no issues with wizards even with thet manaburn (unless they do it when I pull... dumb wizards). I rarely have a dirge and coercer and usually only have 0-1 hate buffs. I'm 40% Hate agin solo form AA and Adornments.I HATE conjour mage pets. I can not keep agro off them for anything. No matter if I Shoulder the Burden them, moderate them... I just give up. I put my avoidance buff on them and try and keep my snap agros up to pull agro back.It has been this way for years. My wife has a conjour alt that she likes to play and I CAN NOT KEEP AGRO off that darn mage pet. Never could. Now with soulburn and all the extra DPS summoners do it's even worse.</blockquote>I think everyone would agree that Conjy pets have always and will always rip aggro from even the best of tanks. This is not becasue of anything other then EB being what it is. EB is even more over powered now then it was before with the inflation of stats and the shared aspect of them.I have to admit I did chuckle when you said you HATE conjour pets and then said your wife likes to play one. That HAS to make for some interesting communication.Elemental Blast: where x= 50K<table cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0" width="100%"><tbody><tr><td colspan="2">The conjuror lends their minion elemental energies, allowing it to bombard its target with repeated blows.</td><td align="right"></td></tr> <tr><td colspan="3"> </td></tr> <tr><td>Target</td><td>Caster's Pet</td></tr> <tr><td>Power</td><td>Scales</td></tr> <tr><td>Casting</td><td>1.0 seconds</td></tr> <tr><td>Recast</td><td>3 minutes</td></tr> <tr><td>Range</td><td>Up to 50.0 meters</td></tr> <tr><td colspan="3"> </td></tr> <tr><td colspan="3">Effects:</td></tr> <tr><td colspan="3"><ul><li>Applies Elemental Blast. <ul><li>Inflicts x-y heat damage on target </li><li>Inflicts x-y heat damage on target </li><li>Inflicts x-y heat damage on target </li><li>Inflicts x-y heat damage on target </li><li>Inflicts x-y heat damage on target </li><li>Inflicts x-y heat damage on target </li><li>Inflicts x-y heat damage on target </li><li>Inflicts x-y heat damage on target </li><li>Inflicts x-y heat damage on target </li><li>Inflicts x-y heat damage on target </li></ul></li></ul>I am guessing that the TPS on a 500,000 DPS spike is quite hard to overcome. However, this is not a bug or hate mechanic issue, but more of an overpowered spell issue.</td></tr></tbody></table>

Loldawg

07-06-2011, 06:07 PM

Conjy pets pull aggro even without EB or SB. Doesn't matter how well geared the tank. The only way to not have them pull aggro is to tell them to back off and not attack. Their threat output is not tuned correctly.

Davngr1

07-06-2011, 08:03 PM

this is either a bug or an atempt by devs to balance conj or a combination of the two. the problem is that necros don't need balancing if anything they still need a small boost to catch up to SF AA conj vs. nec imbalance. btw 1 damage = 1 hate the cap on hate was raised i think but i have not looked into it yet so i will use old values(just factor in changes if you wish). hate gain is capped at 50%. with def stance hate gain is increased by 46% (i guess planeshift got a ninja boost? didn't it use to have a hate gain penalty?) so with the 46% hate from def buff: 1 damage = 1.46 hate since the off stance is useless most conj run with the def stance and that's why they have so many hate problems.

Trensharo

07-06-2011, 11:52 PM

<cite>Nrgy wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Trensharo@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>When was the last time you did more than forgettable DPS to a MOB while a tank pet is tanking it and had it hold agro off of you? The melee pets are broken beyond belief and the tank pet barely casts any of its taunts. It's ability to tank is completely dependent on the Summoner's choice to drive their damage output into the ground and hate list placement bumps in the Summoner and Heroic Tree (and bewilderment). Obviously Conjurors have it better than we do here due to EB and things like Plane Shift (as far as threat generation of thier tank pet is concerned).Fact is, the Mage pet TPS is disproportionate. Telling me how good someone else is and how they have no issues in their 50 second raid encounters does not negate that. Just because a few end-gamers think it's fine and are afraid they will be nerfed doesn't make it so.I didn't say the threat issue was BUGGED. I said the pets generate disproportionately high threat compared to a PC with similar buffs who does significantly more DPS. There's a difference, and mouthbreathers seem incapable of making that distinguishment.You: You're saying pet threat is bugged.Me: Pet threat is not tuned correctly. They are generating disproportionately high threat per point of damage compared to player characters. A pet doing 70k DPS should not be out-TPSing a DPS class doing over twice that. It shouldn't be possible, even with class-specific dehate AAs. The rift is just too large for it to overcome the DPS difference. The TPS should be toned down. They don't need to nerf damage to do that, nor did I say they should (however, offloading some damage to the Summoner would be an acceptable workaround, I did state that).-> You have heard of Hate Reduction Adornments, Hate Reduction Spells, Abilities, Buffs, etc … Players tend to use the abilities they have available to them in intellectual ways, pets do not. Complaining that a player is using more of their abilities then their pure DPS spells is ridiculous. If a smart player buffs up their own Hate Reduction to -50% (easy) and uses positional hate list abilities then a 50K-Pet > 200K-Wizzy … if someone doesn’t realize this then this thread won’t help.You're ignoring the fact that even if the Wizzy doesn't use these abilities, the pet will outTPS it. That's the issue, a glaring one, that you are blatantly ignoring. Go to a Target dummy and have the Wizzy attack the dummy with the pet. The pet will outTPS the Wizard especially on an Epic Dummy which is a sustained fight and not hte 40-70 second type of parses end-gamers tend to link on forums. I don't see why this is so hard for you to digest.The scout pet is useless. Don't talk about it. The -33.6% hate has to do with anything because a pet doing that little DPS will NEVER pull agro anyways. I've already stated I don't pull agro through my player character, even tho I factorably outDPS the pet and routinely fire off Lifeburn as the second damage skill when I engage a raid boss (after Blood Coil to get the pet in combat, etc.). Necros already have an AoE prevention that's just as good with virtually no cost (due to Lich Siphon) and no range restriction like Bubble. The buffs it provides outside of the one every pet gets and the stoneskin are of little worth to anyone but other summoners who undoubtedly will gladly let you summon it (if your raid leader is bad enough to agree to such a thing) but will never agree to summon it themselves, for reasons I've stated.-> The Scout pet is summoned to help the group not the Necro’s personal DPS … The rest of the above is pretty much whining.The issue is that it doesn't help anyone. Outside of the stoneskin proc, it's virtually useless. Other mages do not have these types of agro issues, and their design is clearly superior because position drops and dethreats are 100% effective for them, unlike summoners. The only reason anyone in a decent raid would use the scout is for either the stoneskin proc or the DeHate. The former has merit, but I'm not sure it's worth the cost (it's group only, and shared with real bards that are in every raid group), the latter is virtually useless because it doesn't even fix the root of the problem.I've already stated that I work around the issue. Working around the ISSUE doesn't mean it is NOT an ISSUE, however.-> There is no ISSUE … These are the mechanic. The entire game is based on threat. Threat, admittedly, is difficult to balance and has been looked at and adjusted many times over the years. If anyone class is going to ever have anything to complain about its going to be the fighter class with healers being a close second. Summoners have nothing to complain about as they have many tools and attack styles to overcome nearly any Threat miscalculation. NO ISSUE HERE!There's an issue. The Pet generates disproportionately high hate per point of damage compared to a player character. What tools do summoners have to prevent their pet from pulling in sustained fights where they get threat capped? Magic Leash doesn't work, and please show me a summoner that raids with a mage pet and Energy Clash. I'd like to know WHO does this.There's nothing appropriate about a pet doing 70k DPS having a higher TPS than a Wizard doing 200k. No one expects a Chanter to pull agro before a Wizard, but it's okay for a pet to pull agro over a Wizard when even chanters can double their DPS at end-game?To state this is appropriate is just ... I won't go there. I'm sure you can finish that thought for me. The word filter on this forum will certainly pwn me, anyways.-> Again …. Players can think... Pets can not… but apparently the first part is not inclusive.Apparently not.The pet deagro buff and Energy Clash are at the worse places in the wrong AA tree. Maybe they should replace Enhance Hearts with the Deagro Buff and put Energy Clash (however, only -1 position) in the place of Magic Leash. That would make a bit more sense, IMO. That, or they can allow Bewilderment to also decrease pet hate position as well as the Summoner's. It is not like I have just cried about the issue and not tried to give any suggestions (that it seems have been given in some cases, years ago).-> The worst places… Joke right? IMO Lifeburn is to far down the tree also. I mean, come on, I have to spend 20 AA points before I can get it. Oh, and yeah, I think the Heroic tier 3 Hate Debuf should be moved to the Summoners tab under Intelligents because that’s where it makes more sense to me, IMO. It's in the worse places because it's in a tree with a very low AA cap surrounded by AAs that are so clearly superior to them as to render them virtually useless. Yes, they're in the worst place. My NECRO doesn't have Agro problems. Replace the Shadows -Threat Talent with -Pet Threat, or Replace Magic Leash with it. Energy Clash should either be a pet skill that it casts on cooldown (Replace Minion mark with it, make it 1 position up/down depending on pet class, and add a Nox debuff to it - it's not hard), and then add something that actually gives us choices to the Heroic tree?The Heroic tree is bad not because all the AAs are bad, but because there really is no conditionals/choices below tier 2.-> Making Bewilderment apply to the pets hate position pretty much sums up someone’s entire understanding of a class or game mechanics and proves that there is none (<- this should be in caps). That statement is either so singularly focused on a personal specific playstyle or one of the grossest misunderstandings of mechanics I’ve ever read on a forum.The machanics are flawed because a pet pulling agro takes a summoner who hasn't even cast a spell and puts them at the top of the hate list. Two wrongs don't make a right, but this would be much better than the current situation, and a lot less overpowered than a Magic Leash that drops a hate position that can be spammed twice as often. Again, critical thinking fail.</blockquote>I'll sum this up by repeating myself and others .... There is no issue with summoner pets aggro, specifically Necro pet aggro. Necormancers have many tools and abilities to manage threat. IMO, Necro's can manage thier own threat and the threat of thier pet better then any class in the game. For what its worth I play both a Necro and a Coercer @ 90, so I know a little something about what I'm talking about as threat is concerned. However, I am no expert. I would imagine that an expert would have even an easier time then me.</blockquote>That's your opinion. Many people in this thread have disagreed with you.I can give two <censored> what you play, TBQH.

Trensharo

07-06-2011, 11:54 PM

<cite>Davngr1 wrote:</cite><blockquote>this is either a bug or an atempt by devs to balance conj or a combination of the two. the problem is that necros don't need balancing if anything they still need a small boost to catch up to SF AA conj vs. nec imbalance. btw 1 damage = 1 hate the cap on hate was raised i think but i have not looked into it yet so i will use old values(just factor in changes if you wish). hate gain is capped at 50%. with def stance hate gain is increased by 46% (i guess planeshift got a ninja boost? didn't it use to have a hate gain penalty?) so with the 46% hate from def buff: 1 damage = 1.46 hate since the off stance is useless most conj run with the def stance and that's why they have so many hate problems.</blockquote>We've already stated that no Summoners use leve 90 Master Defensive Stance on their pets. They use level 14 Grandmaster and that has ignorable hate procs with only a 21.9% hate modifier, or something like that.People using a level 90 Defensive Stance just need to be told to stop doing it. They probably haven't even bothered to read the skills' tooltips.However, pets still do significantly less DPS than the summoner and especially something like a Wizard or Warlock. Even with -Hate items on, the damage difference is too great for that small of a hate mod (in a raid the pet will have a negative hate mod even with the GM Defensive on) to allow them to out-TPS a Sorc.I've already tested this on a dummy, with and without Defensive stance and also with and without TC on the Wizard (i.e. the wizard was better buffed than me, notwithstanding he had somewhat better gear as well). The pet always ends up tanking despite down significantly less damage.There's no explanation for it outside of the threat values for their spells being out of whack.Additionally, outside of EB and some of the buffs each summoner geats (Plane Shift, Consumption, Blazing Avatar, etc.) Conjuror and Necro pets are virtually identical. So I dunno how you can stand here and say their pets are ridiculous compared to Necro pets even outside of EB... The way SoE balanced the mechanics of the respective skills, and with the addition of Shared stats, EB is the only thing that really ramps their pets up above Necro pets factorably IRT threat generation (huge TPS bumps, which level out over time but still allows it to stay ahead a bit). If you're going to take EB out of the equation, there isn't much of an argument for saying Conjy pets are so ridiculous IRT Threat Generation and saying theirs seems bugged while necros are "fine."

Davngr1

07-07-2011, 02:27 AM

<cite>Trensharo@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Davngr1 wrote:</cite><blockquote>this is either a bug or an atempt by devs to balance conj or a combination of the two. the problem is that necros don't need balancing if anything they still need a small boost to catch up to SF AA conj vs. nec imbalance. btw 1 damage = 1 hate the cap on hate was raised i think but i have not looked into it yet so i will use old values(just factor in changes if you wish). hate gain is capped at 50%. with def stance hate gain is increased by 46% (i guess planeshift got a ninja boost? didn't it use to have a hate gain penalty?) so with the 46% hate from def buff: 1 damage = 1.46 hate since the off stance is useless most conj run with the def stance and that's why they have so many hate problems.</blockquote>We've already stated that no Summoners use leve 90 Master Defensive Stance on their pets. They use level 14 Grandmaster and that has ignorable hate procs with only a 21.9% hate modifier, or something like that.People using a level 90 Defensive Stance just need to be told to stop doing it. They probably haven't even bothered to read the skills' tooltips.However, pets still do significantly less DPS than the summoner and especially something like a Wizard or Warlock. Even with -Hate items on, the damage difference is too great for that small of a hate mod (in a raid the pet will have a negative hate mod even with the GM Defensive on) to allow them to out-TPS a Sorc.I've already tested this on a dummy, with and without Defensive stance and also with and without TC on the Wizard (i.e. the wizard was better buffed than me, notwithstanding he had somewhat better gear as well). The pet always ends up tanking despite down significantly less damage.There's no explanation for it outside of the threat values for their spells being out of whack.Additionally, outside of EB and some of the buffs each summoner geats (Plane Shift, Consumption, Blazing Avatar, etc.) Conjuror and Necro pets are virtually identical. So I dunno how you can stand here and say their pets are ridiculous compared to Necro pets even outside of EB... The way SoE balanced the mechanics of the respective skills, and with the addition of Shared stats, EB is the only thing that really ramps their pets up above Necro pets factorably IRT threat generation (huge TPS bumps, which level out over time but still allows it to stay ahead a bit). If you're going to take EB out of the equation, there isn't much of an argument for saying Conjy pets are so ridiculous IRT Threat Generation and saying theirs seems bugged while necros are "fine."</blockquote>i didn't want to mention the lower level pet buff because that could get it nerfed but at any rate it's still adding more hate. conj pets do more damage then necro pets, if you don't know that then you really need to sit down with a conj and let him explain his class to you before you attempt to post about it. further more before planeshift use to increase hate as well but i guess conj got a boost and to think devs said EB would be balanced by conj pets dieing? lol so dumb anyway there is a problem and it might be a bug OR some type of balancing stealth nerf... the problem with that is that necro pets didn't need the nerf.

Trensharo

07-07-2011, 05:37 AM

<cite>Davngr1 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Trensharo@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Davngr1 wrote:</cite><blockquote>this is either a bug or an atempt by devs to balance conj or a combination of the two. the problem is that necros don't need balancing if anything they still need a small boost to catch up to SF AA conj vs. nec imbalance. btw 1 damage = 1 hate the cap on hate was raised i think but i have not looked into it yet so i will use old values(just factor in changes if you wish). hate gain is capped at 50%. with def stance hate gain is increased by 46% (i guess planeshift got a ninja boost? didn't it use to have a hate gain penalty?) so with the 46% hate from def buff: 1 damage = 1.46 hate since the off stance is useless most conj run with the def stance and that's why they have so many hate problems.</blockquote>We've already stated that no Summoners use leve 90 Master Defensive Stance on their pets. They use level 14 Grandmaster and that has ignorable hate procs with only a 21.9% hate modifier, or something like that.People using a level 90 Defensive Stance just need to be told to stop doing it. They probably haven't even bothered to read the skills' tooltips.However, pets still do significantly less DPS than the summoner and especially something like a Wizard or Warlock. Even with -Hate items on, the damage difference is too great for that small of a hate mod (in a raid the pet will have a negative hate mod even with the GM Defensive on) to allow them to out-TPS a Sorc.I've already tested this on a dummy, with and without Defensive stance and also with and without TC on the Wizard (i.e. the wizard was better buffed than me, notwithstanding he had somewhat better gear as well). The pet always ends up tanking despite down significantly less damage.There's no explanation for it outside of the threat values for their spells being out of whack.Additionally, outside of EB and some of the buffs each summoner geats (Plane Shift, Consumption, Blazing Avatar, etc.) Conjuror and Necro pets are virtually identical. So I dunno how you can stand here and say their pets are ridiculous compared to Necro pets even outside of EB... The way SoE balanced the mechanics of the respective skills, and with the addition of Shared stats, EB is the only thing that really ramps their pets up above Necro pets factorably IRT threat generation (huge TPS bumps, which level out over time but still allows it to stay ahead a bit). If you're going to take EB out of the equation, there isn't much of an argument for saying Conjy pets are so ridiculous IRT Threat Generation and saying theirs seems bugged while necros are "fine."</blockquote>i didn't want to mention the lower level pet buff because that could get it nerfed but at any rate it's still adding more hate. conj pets do more damage then necro pets, if you don't know that then you really need to sit down with a conj and let him explain his class to you before you attempt to post about it. further more before planeshift use to increase hate as well but i guess conj got a boost and to think devs said EB would be balanced by conj pets dieing? lol so dumb anyway there is a problem and it might be a bug OR some type of balancing stealth nerf... the problem with that is that necro pets didn't need the nerf.</blockquote>Conjuror pets do more damage because:1. They get more temps for their pet (One Procs Encounter Damage, as well)2. Elemental Blast is cast by the pet, Lifeburn is cast by the Necro - It has a Shorter reuse and can be Time Warped resulting in ridiculous damage (and threat) spikesI betrayed to Conjuror for months.Outside of those temps and EB, the pets are identical. Even the pet spells are literally identical outside of some of the Necro pet spells tapping Life and like that. Without EB, the pets sustain very similar threat levels. Again, I'm talking about sustained TPS, not threat spikes in short fights.When EB is used the Conjuror pet spikes higher damage and threat levels and thus it does have a TPS lead over the Necro pet. However, that does not mean the Necro pet doesn't share the same issues. The fact that the pet isn't pulling off the tank doesn't mean the Necro is taking the appropriate measures to ensure a threat-capped pet doesn't pull and wipe the group/raid.A couple tanks and few endgamers coming here calling me a whiner doesn't make an obvious issue that lots of people are dealing with right now go away, either.I've been in too many groups with Conjy's where a pet pulls and the target bounces quickly and repeatedly between the Fiery Magician and Grim Sorcerer.

Loldawg

07-07-2011, 12:45 PM

<cite>Trensharo@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>Even with -Hate items on, the damage difference is too great for that small of a hate mod (in a raid the pet will have a negative hate mod even with the GM Defensive on) to allow them to out-TPS a Sorc.</blockquote>From my testing, -Hate adorns on gear did not transfer -Hate to pet, which in my mind made these adornments pretty useless.

Cisgo

07-07-2011, 01:58 PM

<cite>Oink@Blackburrow wrote:</cite><blockquote>Fact is, some of the best players in the game have already come here and said there are no issues with pets taking and holding agro off good tanks w/ proper group setups.This is the first time 4 years, that summoners who solo epics are finally having their fighter pet hold agro off them, and you want that taken away.Since the introduction of critical strikes, summoner pets are finally to the point where they can do as much damage as the summoner themselves, and the only way to solve your threat issue, which isn't bugged, is to lower their damage. There is no seperate hidden threat values in spells.With GU60, pretty much everything summoners have been asking for for years have been granted to them: Shared stats, DoT tick cap removal, DoTs double-atacking, etc. And yes, your idiocy is going to get summoners who know what they're doing screwed over.As you stated, the scout pet has -33% group dehate, stone skins, natural AE protection, and won't AE mobs. After years of summoners being called utility classes, we actually have some. Yes it won't do the DPS the mage pet does, but you can't have everything. If your group has no other hate management utility, it's up to you to solve the issue, not complain about your pet ripping agro.You're more than welcome to pick Energy Clash instead of Soulburn if need positional hate change for your pet. The fact that spells like Peaceful Link doesn't work on pets since DoV is by design, based on current and appropriate threat generation.</blockquote> Can't state it any better than the above...well said. If in "your" experiences your pet is taking aggro, then simply adjust. I do not see an issue myself, and if I did I wouldn't run the defensive stance and sacrifice smaller Soulburns for starters. If the problem continues you have the option of respec and use EC instead of Soulburn. This complaint is very subjective do to many different factors in which others may not be subject to, (for example a subpar/underbuffed/undergeared tank). If anyone is having these aggro issues there are some tools at your disposal to correct them. But, the fact that some are stating that they are not having any issues (including myself), would lead me to believe that this is not a global issue, but a personal one.

Trensharo

07-08-2011, 12:46 AM

<cite>Lolkat@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Trensharo@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>Even with -Hate items on, the damage difference is too great for that small of a hate mod (in a raid the pet will have a negative hate mod even with the GM Defensive on) to allow them to out-TPS a Sorc.</blockquote>From my testing, -Hate adorns on gear did not transfer -Hate to pet, which in my mind made these adornments pretty useless. </blockquote>Yes, but I'm not the one who said to put it on, nor did I say the Hate transfered. That was in response to another post, that you apparently took out of context.There are some people replying as if they think I'm pulling agro through the Summoner, when it's the pet pulling agro. Wearing -Hate Items is no benefit and actually a deficit in pretty much every situation because my character (without the pet) has zero hate issues.Uisng a Scout pet for Hate Decrease doesn't do anything but make you look bad, especially since most raids will not put you in a party with another summoner, if they can help it.You will do more DPS killing your pet when it gets threat capped and resummoning than using a scout pet 100% of the time with all the talents for it (I've tested this, albeit only in an x2).

Ryai

07-08-2011, 05:55 AM

Has anyone actually verified that group dehates are applying to the pet? Via the target window and observing buffs? That would be one part of the problem. And by the way for the naysayers when wizards are generating million point manaburns without ripping and the necro pet in the same group is ripping with a much smaller EB it's more than just EB or soulburn. Also looking at numbers when pets are split out in parses, there is no reason they should be ripping when they are sometimes. Speaking from the perspective of a raid warlock and tank that get played regularly in hardmodes, I can tell you that there is specifically a disjoint with the necro pet. Conjies rip when they expect to. Just like wizards. But there is a reason that warlocks proc positional detaunts. Because the threat generated by DoTs(necro pet is DoT based) is insurmountable at a certain point. It's easy to test, tell the warlock in your raid to turn off their myth, they should rip crazy fast, over and over if they are decent. DoT based classes have the highest threat potential in the game. Combined with high spike damage, it makes it incredibly easy to rip. Claiming someone should be holding back or respeccing into debate is not valid when they are already generating less dps in the same group with the same buffs. That implies a balance and mechanics issue. Are the tools there? Perhaps. But only at the cost of being competitive in a raid scenario. Which is wrong unless summoners are designed to be tier 2 dps. As a subnote, heroic balance is not relevant to my discussion. Fights are too short there. Balance issues like this only truly emerge once you get over the 2 min mark. Before that, it's expected.

Trensharo

07-11-2011, 02:29 PM

This issue is being looked into. Thanks for the responses, everyone.

Banditman

07-12-2011, 02:17 PM

If you are having consistent, crippling problems with hate consider running a mirror with Minion's Intent in it until your tank learns to hold aggro.

Wasuna

07-12-2011, 02:41 PM

<cite>Banditman wrote:</cite><blockquote>If you are having consistent, crippling problems with hate consider running a mirror with Minion's Intent in it until your tank learns to hold aggro.</blockquote>Or, all of us low end tanks that are doing EM raids and x2 can just let the conjour and mage pet die until they learn how to control their hate becasue all conjours suck right?Please remmember that most of us do not have the luxury of running pick up groups with a dirge, coercer and big hate transfer. I'd really like you to show me how I'm suppose to learn how to pull hate mod buff out of my back side becasue that is all the LEARNING there is to it. I've played this game since EQ2 beta and tanked Drathnar (sp?) for one of the games first kills... I might not be the best tank in the game by a far margin but I sure know what the heck I'm doing so please.. show me how I'm suppose to pull hate mod buff and hate transfer out of my back side.I can keep agro off anything a necro wants to do with any pet they choose to use. I can NOT keep agro off a conjour mage pet without serious group setup and buffs.

Trensharo

07-12-2011, 02:56 PM

They're looking into it.I don't know why you took that bait, though.

Banditman

07-12-2011, 04:57 PM

Loranthala

07-12-2011, 05:45 PM

TBH I don't think there is a problem, unless its from summoners choosing to use defensive stance which not only increases the base hate, but also PROCS a hate proc. I don't understand how people use this stance and are still confused why their pets are creating so much more hate than their spells should.

Davngr1

07-12-2011, 06:12 PM

something did happen. i can't say exactly what it was but the tank pet is holding agro a lot better now too. i don't raid but the raiding summoners seem to be ok with this so i'm guessing it's something that summoner can live with.

Nrgy

07-12-2011, 06:54 PM

<cite>Wasuna wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Banditman wrote:</cite><blockquote>If you are having consistent, crippling problems with hate consider running a mirror with Minion's Intent in it until your tank learns to hold aggro.</blockquote>Or, all of us low end tanks that are doing EM raids and x2 can just let the conjour and mage pet die until they learn how to control their hate becasue all conjours suck right?Please remmember that most of us do not have the luxury of running pick up groups with a dirge, coercer and big hate transfer. I'd really like you to show me how I'm suppose to learn how to pull hate mod buff out of my back side becasue that is all the LEARNING there is to it. I've played this game since EQ2 beta and tanked Drathnar (sp?) for one of the games first kills... I might not be the best tank in the game by a far margin but I sure know what the heck I'm doing so please.. show me how I'm suppose to pull hate mod buff and hate transfer out of my back side.I can keep agro off anything a necro wants to do with any pet they choose to use. I can NOT keep agro off a conjour mage pet without serious group setup and buffs.</blockquote>Since this thread is still running I'll continue to restate the facts ...Tanks are suppose to hold aggro ... DPS are suppose to DPS ... healers are suppose to heal ... if everyone one does their job then the group/raid is successful.Can a Tank factor in additional hate without a Bard or Chanter?? Yes! Of course they can. There are many adornments they can use to build greater levels of hate ... If adorned for +Hate a tank can reach nearly +50% hate without any other class buffing them. There is armor with +Hate and +Threat procs all over the place. There is spell rotations which cause greater hate build up simply by adjusting which CA's they use in which order.I see this issue as nothing more than a poorly geared/adorned/played tank being in a group with a stock summoner. A stock (PQ geared) summoners (caster) can put out a ton of DPS. A stock (PQ geared) tank should never be allowed to tank an instance let alone an EM raid.Tanks are gear dependent ... class knowledge dependent ... adornment dependent ... Tanks need to know 'the' fight, this being EVERY Fight, better than any other class, including the healer. They need to use skills such as positional mob placement, LOS, recognize mob buffs, counter actions, be environmentatlly aware, Target ordering and must above all have knowledge of the scripting. If a tank player doesn't want to or can't put in the effort to be prepared for a group then there is little chance for success. Summoners have zero dependencies they could do 75% of the DPS without any armor being worn at all. The Pet is subject to AA's and the Summoners innate stats (Int). A summoner can always rip aggro from an unprepared tank but would be hard pressed to rip anything from a well prepared tank. It’s not the Pets threat that has anything to do with it. It’s the preparedness of the Summoners vs the tank and the tank must ALWAYS be two steps ahead.If summoners are grouping with stock PQ geared tanks which aren't certain of which CA's generate threat at the greatest rate then they might as well tell the healer to switch targets until the tank is ready to .. actually .. tank.Tanks fight mobs ... The rest of us stand around to loot mobs and try not to do dumb things.

Trensharo

07-13-2011, 02:02 AM

<cite>Nrgy wrote:</cite><blockquote>Summoners have zero dependencies they could do 75% of the DPS without any armor being worn at all.</blockquote>Is this a joke?Also: A tank can be on the same step as a Wizard, but must be two steps ahead of a Mage pet that does half the DPS of said Wizard? How can you not see the issue with this...

Trensharo

07-13-2011, 02:05 AM

<cite>Simonx@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote>TBH I don't think there is a problem, unless its from summoners choosing to use defensive stance which not only increases the base hate, but also PROCS a hate proc. I don't understand how people use this stance and are still confused why their pets are creating so much more hate than their spells should.</blockquote>We had the Defensive Stance discussion on Page one. Please revisit.

Banditman

07-13-2011, 09:59 AM

<cite>Nrgy wrote:</cite><blockquote>Summoners have zero dependencies they could do 75% of the DPS without any armor being worn at all. </blockquote>Did you really mean to write that? I don't think you did. Believe me, Summoners are just as gear dependant and buff dependant as the next class. On raids, I can lose anywhere from 25 to 40 percent of my DPS just by way of a Troubador being present or not.

Nrgy

07-13-2011, 05:37 PM

<cite>Banditman wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Nrgy wrote:</cite><blockquote>Summoners have zero dependencies they could do 75% of the DPS without any armor being worn at all. </blockquote>Did you really mean to write that? I don't think you did. Believe me, Summoners are just as gear dependant and buff dependant as the next class. On raids, I can lose anywhere from 25 to 40 percent of my DPS just by way of a Troubador being present or not.</blockquote><cite>Trenshero@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Nrgy wrote:</cite><blockquote>Summoners have zero dependencies they could do 75% of the DPS without any armor being worn at all.</blockquote>Is this a joke?Also: A tank can be on the same step as a Wizard, but must be two steps ahead of a Mage pet that does half the DPS of said Wizard? How can you not see the issue with this...</blockquote>Yes .. I really ment to write that and NO it is not a joke. If you have a Spell caster strip off every piece of gear and weapons and duel a Tank without gear or weapons then the Mage will win every time. That is what I mean by Mages not being gear dependant.Can a Mage output more DPS with better gear and weapons equipted? Of Course. But can a Mage do any DPS without gear? Of course they can.Can a Tank actually tank a mob without gear ... Of course not. They are gear dependant. They must have the BEST gear possible to be able to tank hard mobs. Mages do not need to have the best gear to DPS hard mobs, it only makes it easier/better/faster.Tanks must have Knowledge of mobs, knowledge of class, knowledge of gear .. without that knowledge they can not tank. If a tank has sub-standard gear, in comparison to a Mage, then they can not tank, for that mage. There is no rocket science at work here. Tanks with better gear tank better then tanks with sub-standard gear.Part of being a tank requires adornmenting properly. Adornments to increase hitpoints, Hate Gain, Resists all increase thier critical tanking stats. If a tank in sub-standard tanking gear believes they can tank effectively without properly preparing then they are wrong, its as simple as that. Mages, in general, do not have this same problem.A tank in equal gear (step) as a wizard is nothing more than a lazy tank. Maybe I'm being foolish thinking Tanks need to be more prepared and maybe that follows the over-kill crit-mit stat requests for heroic zones these days, but if someone is going to claim to be a 'Tank' then they need to actually be able to 'Tank'. The summoner pet isn't going to rip aggro from a real 'Tank'... all that aside I do group with a SK tank in DOV Heroics and this SK tank is NOT properly adorned, does NOT have the best-in-slot gear and does NOT have greater knowledge of the mobs scripts and I rarely ever rip aggro from them. When my Necro+Pet put out 50k DPS and the SK holds aggro then either they are extremely good at thier class or there aren't any real aggro issues at play. If my Necro+Pet put out 100k+ DPS then the pet is going to rip aggo nearly everytime. I wouldn't cry about bugs, issues or broken mechanics becasue I would expect it to happen.... When you're in a raid with a raid 'Tank' then I would expect that 100k+ DPS to not matter at all becasue the 'Tank' is prepared with gear, adornments and knowledge of the mobs script. This is not a Pet aggro issue.

Banditman

07-13-2011, 05:59 PM

What in the WORLD does a naked duel have to do with a Summoner doing 75% of his natural DPS without gear?Without gear, *everyone* is going to do only a fraction of their normal DPS. Without testing it, I'd guess it to be about 20 - 25%.

drakkenshie

07-13-2011, 07:53 PM

<cite>Trenshero@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>I know Synergism says it doesn't work on pets (have an Illy with the buff), but I'm not sure about Peaceful Link.@ Person above. All the questions you're asking me have already been answered in this thread, by me. Read my earlier posts.The issue isn't exclusive to Necro pets. Conjuror pets have the same issue. Even without EBing and SBing, their pets also have insane TPS.The only thing different is that their pets generate a bit more due to EB being cast from the pet, while Necros cast LB from the Summoner. Their Threat issues IRT EB are probably exacerbated by the overall TPS<img src="/eq2/images/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" />PS imbalance.</blockquote>When using the mage (fire) pet yes.But when I am tanking on my conjuror with my earthen avatar, I actually need more threat than I have.My mage pet has more threat than my tank pet, even at the same damage levels, and that can't be right.

Banditman

07-14-2011, 10:12 AM

When you are using your tank pet, the expectation is that you are using Perceptors Command every 5 seconds to keep your pet at the top of the hate list.Consider a spec something like <a href="http://www.beetny.com/eq2aa/?502i144a@54aa15a81@48@18@2212s5@5523155@152@15555 55@15@21@11551@25121o@35@15@355@315@11@11@1145@155 @11131e@1a@3a@1a8a1" target="_blank">this one</a>. I've been able to have my pet tank some really crazy stuff.

Wasuna

07-14-2011, 11:02 AM

Since some people can't read: I'm 90/300. I have 43K solo HP. I have 40% base hate mod through adornments/AA. I have played the same tank since EQ2 day 1 and even played the same class and name in EQ2 original beta. I know how to tank.Last night I was in the x2. I had a dirge and coercer and I was stealing 15% hate from the top DPS wizard and he was giving me 8% hate. I was basically hate capped. As the tank, I was the #5 dps out of 12 zone wide. Group 2 had a conjour (my wife). She was the #3 DPS zone wide so her pet was probably doing more DPS than I was but my hate mod was 98%.The only person/pet in that eitire raid that EVER pulled agro off me was the conjour mage pet. The beginning of the fight, the end of the fight, it did not matter. The coercer had the Peaceful Link on the pet and I believe the Illusionist put Synigersim on the pet also. I even went full offensive and DW to try and stop it but it didn't help.The funny part is, the pet would get agro, before I could do anything the mob would go kill the pet.... and run back to the tank. It never once killed the Conjour, it would ALWAYS kill the pet and run back to me. About half the time I would get a rescue off before it got out of range but when I didn't it never once agroed the conjour.I have grouped with some of the necros in this thread and tanked for them in Kael zones and such. They would multiply my dps by 3-4 times and I could still stand there and eat a sandwich and keep agro. Conjour mage pets are bad and I feel for any tank that doesn't have the group agro tools of a Guardian to deal with it as well as I can.

Nrgy

07-14-2011, 11:34 AM

<cite>Wasuna wrote:</cite><blockquote>Since some people can't read: I'm 90/300. I have 43K solo HP. I have 40% base hate mod through adornments/AA. I have played the same tank since EQ2 day 1 and even played the same class and name in EQ2 original beta. I know how to tank.Last night I was in the x2. I had a dirge and coercer and I was stealing 15% hate from the top DPS wizard and he was giving me 8% hate. I was basically hate capped. As the tank, I was the #5 dps out of 12 zone wide. Group 2 had a conjour (my wife). She was the #3 DPS zone wide so her pet was probably doing more DPS than I was but my hate mod was 98%.The only person/pet in that eitire raid that EVER pulled agro off me was the conjour mage pet. The beginning of the fight, the end of the fight, it did not matter. The coercer had the Peaceful Link on the pet and I believe the Illusionist put Synigersim on the pet also. I even went full offensive and DW to try and stop it but it didn't help.The funny part is, the pet would get agro, before I could do anything the mob would go kill the pet.... and run back to the tank. It never once killed the Conjour, it would ALWAYS kill the pet and run back to me. About half the time I would get a rescue off before it got out of range but when I didn't it never once agroed the conjour.I have grouped with some of the necros in this thread and tanked for them in Kael zones and such. They would multiply my dps by 3-4 times and I could still stand there and eat a sandwich and keep agro. Conjour mage pets are bad and I feel for any tank that doesn't have the group agro tools of a Guardian to deal with it as well as I can.</blockquote>Evaluate the ACT parse of the fight where the Pet is ripping the aggro and getting splatted shortly after. If the parse shows a huge DPS spike on the Pet right before it get killed then see which spell is causing it. ACT will also show the Threat of the Pet and show any spikes in there as well. It should work out that Mob Hate = DPS + threat.I have experienced and agree with everything in your post. Necro Pets are a PITA at times but between the tank and the Necro tools it is easy to manage. I don't play a Conjy and can not speak about them to any degree other then we all know EB has a huge DPS spike applied through the Pet and all Summoners have some tools to either increase or reduce Pet Hate....That being said nobody believes that Pet Hate generates any different then player hate (1) DPS = (1) Hate. DPS or Healing SPIKES might have an unknown weighted effect where a mob increases hate beyond normal due to incorrectly calculating sustained DPS/Healing. If a spell has a long refresh timer but hits like a ton of bricks it is not out of the realm of possibility that the mob is applying too much weight in its calculations of hate gain without considering the time involved between spikes.Beyond that if a spell has a known or hidden threat mechanic attached to it, the forumla could easily be skewed by the actions of the Summoner casting.

Wasuna

07-14-2011, 01:31 PM

None of that matters. Wizards manaburn for 600-900K and Assassins get a DOUBLE Assassinate at the END of a consealment chain (When their threat is highest) for 400-500K EACH and do not pull agro.I fully agree that the agro is a DPS spike (SB and EB) but putting the ability to do those spikes without any way to mitigate the agro is the problem. The conjour mage pet is the source of the damage for those spikes where as the necro spreads their DPS out more evenly between the pet and summoner.

drakkenshie

07-14-2011, 10:35 PM

Trensharo

07-15-2011, 01:40 AM

Conjurors have a slightly different view of the tank pet than Necros, especially now that even a Tank pet basically always has 100% Crit Rate and Potency/CB are uncapped.My Tank pet doesn't have any trouble holding agro, but that's because I make sure not to do more than 5k DPS on my Necro.The Fighter and Scout Pet are both beyond broken.Maybe with Beastlords coming SOE will be forced to fix the melee pets, unless they give them a mage pet too O.o

drakkenshie

07-15-2011, 05:23 AM

<cite>Nrgy wrote:</cite><blockquote>I'll sum this up by repeating myself and others .... There is no issue with summoner pets aggro, specifically Necro pet aggro. Necormancers have many tools and abilities to manage threat. IMO, Necro's can manage thier own threat and the threat of thier pet better then any class in the game. </blockquote>Yes there is an issue.You and others are just not listening. Over and over you keep stating things like EB and defensive stance or using tools, and that is not the issue.My mage pet can pull aggro off a tank without even trying, doing far less damage than others which are NOT pulling aggro.This is broken behavior.

drakkenshie

07-15-2011, 05:29 AM

<cite>Nrgy wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Wasuna wrote:</cite><blockquote>I'm a Guardian. I'm 90/300. I have over 43K HP solo. I can hold agro off a 120K DPS Assassin in my sleep with me doing 20-30K DPS. I have no issues with necros and I have been in groups with them doing over 100K DPS. I have no issues with wizards even with thet manaburn (unless they do it when I pull... dumb wizards). I rarely have a dirge and coercer and usually only have 0-1 hate buffs. I'm 40% Hate agin solo form AA and Adornments.I HATE conjour mage pets. I can not keep agro off them for anything. No matter if I Shoulder the Burden them, moderate them... I just give up. I put my avoidance buff on them and try and keep my snap agros up to pull agro back.It has been this way for years. My wife has a conjour alt that she likes to play and I CAN NOT KEEP AGRO off that darn mage pet. Never could. Now with soulburn and all the extra DPS summoners do it's even worse.</blockquote>I think everyone would agree that Conjy pets have always and will always rip aggro from even the best of tanks. This is not becasue of anything other then EB being what it is. EB is even more over powered now then it was before with the inflation of stats and the shared aspect of them.I have to admit I did chuckle when you said you HATE conjour pets and then said your wife likes to play one. That HAS to make for some interesting communication.Elemental Blast: where x= 50K<table cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0" width="100%"><tbody><tr><td colspan="2">The conjuror lends their minion elemental energies, allowing it to bombard its target with repeated blows.</td><td align="right"> </td></tr> <tr><td colspan="3"> </td></tr> <tr><td>Target</td><td>Caster's Pet</td></tr> <tr><td>Power</td><td>Scales</td></tr> <tr><td>Casting</td><td>1.0 seconds</td></tr> <tr><td>Recast</td><td>3 minutes</td></tr> <tr><td>Range</td><td>Up to 50.0 meters</td></tr> <tr><td colspan="3"> </td></tr> <tr><td colspan="3">Effects:</td></tr> <tr><td colspan="3"><ul><li>Applies Elemental Blast. <ul><li>Inflicts x-y heat damage on target </li><li>Inflicts x-y heat damage on target </li><li>Inflicts x-y heat damage on target </li><li>Inflicts x-y heat damage on target </li><li>Inflicts x-y heat damage on target </li><li>Inflicts x-y heat damage on target </li><li>Inflicts x-y heat damage on target </li><li>Inflicts x-y heat damage on target </li><li>Inflicts x-y heat damage on target </li><li>Inflicts x-y heat damage on target </li></ul></li></ul>I am guessing that the TPS on a 500,000 DPS spike is quite hard to overcome. However, this is not a bug or hate mechanic issue, but more of an overpowered spell issue.</td></tr></tbody></table></blockquote>This is true... but I'm pulling aggro all the time with my mage pet even if I do NOTHING except have the pet attack.No EB, nothing, just leave it to its own devices and it can strip aggro from a tank pretty easy.

drakkenshie

07-15-2011, 05:34 AM

<cite>Banditman wrote:</cite><blockquote>When you are using your tank pet, the expectation is that you are using Perceptors Command every 5 seconds to keep your pet at the top of the hate list.Consider a spec something like <a href="http://www.beetny.com/eq2aa/?502i144a@54aa15a81@48@18@2212s5@5523155@152@15555 55@15@21@11551@25121o@35@15@355@315@11@11@1145@155 @11131e@1a@3a@1a8a1" target="_blank">this one</a>. I've been able to have my pet tank some really crazy stuff.</blockquote>Actually every 10 seconds, and it only hits the current target.Like I said, it needs to be faster (5 seconds would be nice if I had it) and we need an AE taunt.I only have 160 AA or so but my tank spec is about like the one you list as far as I can go.

drakkenshie

07-15-2011, 05:38 AM

<cite>Wasuna wrote:</cite><blockquote>The only person/pet in that eitire raid that EVER pulled agro off me was the conjour mage pet. The beginning of the fight, the end of the fight, it did not matter. The coercer had the Peaceful Link on the pet and I believe the Illusionist put Synigersim on the pet also. I even went full offensive and DW to try and stop it but it didn't help.The funny part is, the pet would get agro, before I could do anything the mob would go kill the pet.... and run back to the tank. It never once killed the Conjour, it would ALWAYS kill the pet and run back to me. About half the time I would get a rescue off before it got out of range but when I didn't it never once agroed the conjour.I have grouped with some of the necros in this thread and tanked for them in Kael zones and such. They would multiply my dps by 3-4 times and I could still stand there and eat a sandwich and keep agro. Conjour mage pets are bad and I feel for any tank that doesn't have the group agro tools of a Guardian to deal with it as well as I can.</blockquote>Well said.This is exactly what I see on content around level 80 as well.I also see the same thing where the mob hits the pet, then goes back to the tank never touching me at all.It happens without using Elemental Blast or any heavy DPS.It is quite obviously broken behavior.Yes, of course I expect to pull aggro if I really put out a lot of DPS or make the pet do it, but I'm not. It's just happening with what amounts to pet auto-attack.

drakkenshie

07-15-2011, 05:39 AM

<cite>Nrgy wrote:</cite><blockquote>Evaluate the ACT parse of the fight where the Pet is ripping the aggro and getting splatted shortly after. If the parse shows a huge DPS spike on the Pet right before it get killed then see which spell is causing it. ACT will also show the Threat of the Pet and show any spikes in there as well. It should work out that Mob Hate = DPS + threat.</blockquote>I have looked at the parse, and there was no damage spike when the pet took aggro.My mage pet has pulled aggro off of tanks just sitting on its auto-attack and the tank was doing more DPS than it was.This cannot be correct behavior.[ crap, I meant to combine posts and submitted instead, up past my bedtime, sorry ]

Ryai

07-15-2011, 06:07 AM

There is so much misinformation in this thread now. I'm fairly certain the first problem is that hate buffs do not affect pets. It's a known fact that peaceful link does not work on summoner pets. I would extrapolate this to troubadour dehate as well. Seeing as how those two things are the majority of mage dehate in a raid, there is something weird going on. You can examine act parses, watch other mages generating higher spike dps, and still not pulling aggro or being anywhere close. And you can ask any tank. Summoners do not put put high enough spike damage to justify that kind of ripping. Wizards generate numbers 2-3 times as high and don't rip during time warps. And did someone really just try to claim summoner dps isn't dependent on gear? Parse please. You're wrong in so so many ways.

Trensharo

07-15-2011, 07:34 AM

<cite>drakkenshield wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Banditman wrote:</cite><blockquote>When you are using your tank pet, the expectation is that you are using Perceptors Command every 5 seconds to keep your pet at the top of the hate list.Consider a spec something like <a href="http://www.beetny.com/eq2aa/?502i144a@54aa15a81@48@18@2212s5@5523155@152@15555 55@15@21@11551@25121o@35@15@355@315@11@11@1145@155 @11131e@1a@3a@1a8a1" target="_blank">this one</a>. I've been able to have my pet tank some really crazy stuff.</blockquote>Actually every 10 seconds, and it only hits the current target.Like I said, it needs to be faster (5 seconds would be nice if I had it) and we need an AE taunt.I only have 160 AA or so but my tank spec is about like the one you list as far as I can go.</blockquote>I only have 300 AA, a full tank pet spec on my Necro, and the tank pet is garbage - plain and simple.It's *usable* if you drive your own DPS into the ground (More than 5 or 5k DPS and the tank pet cannot tank off of you (Necro). I don't care how much you're spamming Perceptor's Command... It's not gonna happen...).Actually, I have fraps installed, so I might log in in a bit to show you how incredible it is. Even some Necros are in denial and will blatantly come here and tell me it's fine, when it's not. The melee pets are broken as hell. Need to be fixed ASAP.

Banditman

07-15-2011, 10:03 AM

You need more re-use. Perceptors Command is a base 10 seconds, at cap you'll have it every 5.I will agree that there is something wrong with the "conversion" that is done for melee pets. Basically, melee pets mechanically should be using STR or AGI (depending on class) to determine their damage. Because we are Mages, some sort of conversion was done to use INT instead. That conversion is not working properly.There is a very distinct difference in damage done by shared abilities like Fury of the Elements and Blazing Conjuration when used by the Mage pet versus either of the melee pets - in favor of the Mage pet. If the conversion is being done properly, there should be no difference in damage for those abilities between different pets.

Nrgy

07-15-2011, 01:08 PM

<cite>Cyan@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>There is so much misinformation in this thread now. And did someone really just try to claim summoner dps isn't dependent on gear? Parse please. You're wrong in so so many ways.</blockquote>No... someone stated<ul><li>Tanks without (POOR) Gear can not hold aggro against summoner pets regardless of the summoners gear.</li><li>Tanks with (GOOD) gear have far less issues holding aggro, but some specific case still exist.</li><li>Tanks with (GREAT) knowledge of their class can overcome other DPS vs Aggro issues better then those without.</li><li>Tanks with (GREAT) gear have even less issues</li><li>Tanks in (POOR) gear can NOT hold aggro, are are rendered useless.</li><li>Summoners with (POOR) gear can still DPS, just to a lesser degree</li><li>Summoners with (GOOD) gear only increase their DPS it does NOT render them useless</li></ul>Someone can debate and disagree but I doubt they'll change my mind nor do I think they would be able to prove it untrue. Don't confuse Gear dependancy with performance level. Some classes can not function without gear and some classes only perform better with gear.Tanks REQUIRE gear to Tank ... DPS require gear to DPS better.

Trensharo

07-15-2011, 02:47 PM

<cite>Nrgy wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Cyan@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>There is so much misinformation in this thread now. And did someone really just try to claim summoner dps isn't dependent on gear? Parse please. You're wrong in so so many ways.</blockquote>No... someone stated<ul><li>Tanks without (POOR) Gear can not hold aggro against summoner pets regardless of the summoners gear.</li><li>Tanks with (GOOD) gear have far less issues holding aggro, but some specific case still exist.</li><li>Tanks with (GREAT) knowledge of their class can overcome other DPS vs Aggro issues better then those without.</li><li>Tanks with (GREAT) gear have even less issues</li><li>Tanks in (POOR) gear can NOT hold aggro, are are rendered useless.</li><li>Summoners with (POOR) gear can still DPS, just to a lesser degree</li><li>Summoners with (GOOD) gear only increase their DPS it does NOT render them useless</li></ul>Someone can debate and disagree but I doubt they'll change my mind nor do I think they would be able to prove it untrue. Don't confuse Gear dependancy with performance level. Some classes can not function without gear and some classes only perform better with gear.Tanks REQUIRE gear to Tank ... DPS require gear to DPS better.</blockquote>Laughing Out Loud.That's what you people stated, not me (in my OP) and not many others who replied to it.What I stated is simply, and you still haven't really addressed it. The pet's generate disproportionate TPS. What deagro skills other mages get doesn't matter. The pets still do (compared to T1 DPS classes) pathetic DPS yet they are putting out TPS on par with many tanks with tons of Hate Transfer on them (and Hate Mod Adorns, etc.).You people are the ones who hijacked the thread with claims of how bad the Summoner or Tank is and with blame games and idiotic theories of who's fault it must have been.A tank in bad gear will suck at tanking about as much as a DPS with Bad gear sucks at DPSing. A bad tank can tank fabulously off a Bad DPS. You can't say one benefits from gear more than the other when gear disparity in favor of the DPS class is built into your fail argument.Why are you looking for proof disproving your epic thread derail when you have filed to provide any proof that the pet's sustained TPS is balanced other than WorksForMe™?

disappointed

07-15-2011, 10:53 PM

easy solution : turn summoners into utility classes. problem solved.

Felshades

07-15-2011, 11:03 PM

<cite>Nrgy wrote:</cite><blockquote> A stock (PQ geared) tank should never be allowed to tank an instance</blockquote>Did you seriously just say this?How in the name of Hate do you expect the tank to get the gear to tank the instances then? SLR camp for a week or so to get full EM raid gear before stepping foot into a zone to get shards? Or to get their shards on a loldps so they can twink their tank alt out with Ry'gorr gear before learning how to tank?What *are* you smoking? Can I have some? Please?

drakkenshie

07-16-2011, 12:22 AM

<cite>Trenshero@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>drakkenshield wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Banditman wrote:</cite><blockquote>When you are using your tank pet, the expectation is that you are using Perceptors Command every 5 seconds to keep your pet at the top of the hate list.Consider a spec something like <a href="http://www.beetny.com/eq2aa/?502i144a@54aa15a81@48@18@2212s5@5523155@152@15555 55@15@21@11551@25121o@35@15@355@315@11@11@1145@155 @11131e@1a@3a@1a8a1" target="_blank">this one</a>. I've been able to have my pet tank some really crazy stuff.</blockquote>Actually every 10 seconds, and it only hits the current target.Like I said, it needs to be faster (5 seconds would be nice if I had it) and we need an AE taunt.I only have 160 AA or so but my tank spec is about like the one you list as far as I can go.</blockquote>I only have 300 AA, a full tank pet spec on my Necro, and the tank pet is garbage - plain and simple.It's *usable* if you drive your own DPS into the ground (More than 5 or 5k DPS and the tank pet cannot tank off of you (Necro). I don't care how much you're spamming Perceptor's Command... It's not gonna happen...).Actually, I have fraps installed, so I might log in in a bit to show you how incredible it is. Even some Necros are in denial and will blatantly come here and tell me it's fine, when it's not. The melee pets are broken as hell. Need to be fixed ASAP.</blockquote>Not sure why you replied to me, I agree with you.My tank pet does OK but part of that is because I run with someone who is very good and cooperative too. But in PUGs, even when the pet can clearly tank the area, its useless because you can't get people to follow even kindergarten level instruction in this game at times.Tank pet really needs better aggro, period... and the mage pet aggro is just plain whacky.

Ryai

07-16-2011, 07:37 AM

Uh, maybe you need to raid some Nrgy. We have well geared tanks in far better gear than the summoners who are continually seeing pets rip off them. And the mages have all the correct buffs. As evidenced by the wizard in the same group ripping constantly if troub dehate is not up. Put troub dehate up and the wizard stops ripping immediately but the summoner pet continues to(and the wiz is outparsing the summoner). You cannot provide a more isolated example than that. Pet threat is messed up. It's a mechanics issue. Gear or skill is definitely not part of it at all.

Loldawg

07-16-2011, 01:45 PM

you know something is messed up when you have to drop conjy's from raid b/c they are messing up pulls and there is absoltuely nothing a raid / tank / even conjy can do apart from not dps'ing... happened to use this week on a progression pull. we couldve used the conjy dps but it just wasn't worth it / controllable.

Banditman

07-18-2011, 10:02 AM

<cite>Lolkat@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>you know something is messed up when you have to drop conjy's from raid b/c they are messing up pulls and there is absoltuely nothing a raid / tank / even conjy can do apart from not dps'ing... happened to use this week on a progression pull. we couldve used the conjy dps but it just wasn't worth it / controllable.</blockquote>That is bad tanking or bad DPS'ing. It's one of the two. Since you said "on pull", I'd say it's simply bad DPS'ing by a player too eager to start blowing stuff up.

Trensharo

07-18-2011, 10:08 AM

<cite>Banditman wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Lolkat@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>you know something is messed up when you have to drop conjy's from raid b/c they are messing up pulls and there is absoltuely nothing a raid / tank / even conjy can do apart from not dps'ing... happened to use this week on a progression pull. we couldve used the conjy dps but it just wasn't worth it / controllable.</blockquote>That is bad tanking or bad DPS'ing. It's one of the two. Since you said "on pull", I'd say it's simply bad DPS'ing by a player too eager to start blowing stuff up.</blockquote>I'm pretty sure it's just a bad choice of words and he wrote "on pulls" when he really meant to write "on attempts."He didn't mean the Conjies were blowing stuff up "on the pull."TBH, that's pretty obvious but you always find a way to intentionally miscomprehend <censored> to make it suit your point of view.

Nrgy

07-18-2011, 12:00 PM

<cite>Cyan@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>Uh, maybe you need to raid some Nrgy. We have well geared tanks in far better gear than the summoners who are continually seeing pets rip off them. And the mages have all the correct buffs. As evidenced by the wizard in the same group ripping constantly if troub dehate is not up. Put troub dehate up and the wizard stops ripping immediately but the summoner pet continues to(and the wiz is outparsing the summoner). You cannot provide a more isolated example than that. Pet threat is messed up. It's a mechanics issue. Gear or skill is definitely not part of it at all.</blockquote>Its been said / known that de-hate spells such as 'Peaceful Link' do not effect pets. There is no reason to think that Trouby de-hate effects pets either. You're describing a situation where first a wizzy is ripping aggro, due to no Trouby de-hate, and then a summoner pet is ripping aggro once Trouby de-hate is applied. In either case the situation would be different with more Tank threat.Raiding groups should be far less senseitive to aggro mechanics then heroc groups as a raid will have more tools and gear available to them to control aggro far better then a 6 man group. Heroic groups would be experiencing pet aggro issues which they would have a much harder time countering. Raid geared players have far more resources available to them in the form of adornments, buffs and group make-up. If this is less of an issue for 6-mans then it should be no issue at all for raid groups. Tanks are gear dependant as this post re-affirms. Tanks that are losing aggro to Wizzy's w/out Trouby buffs or summoners even after Trouby buffs might not fall under the 'Well Geared' category. Wizzy's do not REQUIRE Trouby buffs in order to be able to DPS while not ripping aggro from 'Well Geared' tanks nor do summoner pets.I am sorry some people are having a hard time being able to DPS without ripping aggro from Tanks, but the issue might not be the casters. While tanks are obviously required for a 6-man/raid group they are certainly not immune from doing thier job and being prepared.Putting Tanks, and Healers for that matter, on a pedestal thinking they can do no wrong is just plain silly. unprepared tanks need to learn how to deal with DPS just the same as DPS need to learn to deal with them.<ul><li>Tanking requires = Skill > Knowledge > Gear > Adornments</li><li>DPS'ing requires = Gear > Adornments > Skill > Knowledge</li></ul>Tanks need to be smarted then DPS ... which in the land of uber-parse threads becomes more and more difficult. DPS love to do one thing and thats DPS. They try and do as much as it as they can. They try and learn how to do more. They are not happy unless they do more then everyone else. Tanks CAN compensate for DPS aggro at every level with Gear and Skill.One issue is that DPS can simply hit one button and puond out huge DPS numbers and tanks must work hard to achieve the same threat to offset the aggro. Tanks can NEVER be lazy while DPS certain can be. Gear is not a measurement if skill, it never has been and never will be.DPS inflation and bad programming surrounding threat mechanics certain can be an issue and will become more evident as players continue to advance. So at this point either your casters are way far ahead of the DPS curve or your tanks are way under the threat curve. We have all seen DPS parses with casters and summoners both getting closer to 250,000 extended DPS. I seriously doubt they could reach those levels without proper tank threat. If they don't have an issue with threat then those of us who are having an issue need to solve it ourselves.If this becomes a true issue then we'll see the top 5 raiding guilds make this more of an issue. But for pugs and guilds which claim they have 'Well Geared' tanks this is crying wolf at this point.

Banditman

07-18-2011, 06:15 PM

<cite>Trenshero@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Banditman wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Lolkat@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>you know something is messed up when you have to drop conjy's from raid b/c they are messing up pulls and there is absoltuely nothing a raid / tank / even conjy can do apart from not dps'ing... happened to use this week on a progression pull. we couldve used the conjy dps but it just wasn't worth it / controllable.</blockquote>That is bad tanking or bad DPS'ing. It's one of the two. Since you said "on pull", I'd say it's simply bad DPS'ing by a player too eager to start blowing stuff up.</blockquote>I'm pretty sure it's just a bad choice of words and he wrote "on pulls" when he really meant to write "on attempts."He didn't mean the Conjies were blowing stuff up "on the pull."TBH, that's pretty obvious but you always find a way to intentionally miscomprehend to make it suit your point of view.</blockquote>Strangely, I'm able to parse 8-10% of my raid's overall DPS in HM content, yet the only time I have aggro issues is when I do something incredibly stupid. I'm not saying I don't do it, only that when I do, I know it's my own fault.Again, I'm not against lowering pet threat at all, it just makes everything easier for me. I can go insane right from the start and improve my DPS further. Nevertheless, I've yet to see any Conjy who couldn't make it work unless he was doing something stupid or the tank was not up to snuff.

Wasuna

07-18-2011, 06:17 PM

I read your post. Your conclusion is backward. The gold standard is high end raid geared people. Those tanks do more DPS and always have hate transfer and hate mod buffs. Your comparision is logically flawed.I have given my examples before. I'm closer to the avergae and if I am full raid hate buffed then I can keep agro off a conjour mage pet. It can still be a strugle but I can. No other class or pet even begins to compare to the agro generated by a conjour mage pet.

Nrgy

07-19-2011, 05:47 PM

<cite>Wasuna wrote:</cite><blockquote>I read your post. Your conclusion is backward. The gold standard is high end raid geared people. Those tanks do more DPS and always have hate transfer and hate mod buffs. Your comparision is logically flawed.I have given my examples before. I'm closer to the avergae and if I am full raid hate buffed then I can keep agro off a conjour mage pet. It can still be a strugle but I can. No other class or pet even begins to compare to the agro generated by a conjour mage pet.</blockquote>I am pretty sure everyone agrees with this ....What we, the summoning casters, don't agree with is that the pet aggro mechanic is broken.We, the summoning casters, feel that<ol><li>A knowledgable summoning caster can deal with his/her own aggro issues with the current mechanics</li><li>A tank without knowledge/gear/adornments isn't going to hold aggro from any big DPS player, let alone a Pet</li></ol>Also ... just to point out some interesting aggro mechanics ...As a Summoner continues to gear up and do more personal DPS thier pet does not keep pace. The Shared Stats only go so far to increase the pet DPS. Stats such as Hit Points are not shared .. as well as others. When you solo w/pet on a single mob .. and the caster has Aggro 75% of the time you'll understand that pet aggro is not as big of a problem as some people think. Yeah ... The Summoner themselves can rip aggro from the summoner pet and HOLD it ... so I'm hoping the tanks can do it to.

Trensharo

07-19-2011, 06:25 PM

<cite>Nrgy wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Wasuna wrote:</cite><blockquote>I read your post. Your conclusion is backward. The gold standard is high end raid geared people. Those tanks do more DPS and always have hate transfer and hate mod buffs. Your comparision is logically flawed.I have given my examples before. I'm closer to the avergae and if I am full raid hate buffed then I can keep agro off a conjour mage pet. It can still be a strugle but I can. No other class or pet even begins to compare to the agro generated by a conjour mage pet.</blockquote>I am pretty sure everyone agrees with this ....What we, the summoning casters, don't agree with is that the pet aggro mechanic is broken.We, the summoning casters, feel that<ol><li>A knowledgable summoning caster can deal with his/her own aggro issues with the current mechanics</li><li>A tank without knowledge/gear/adornments isn't going to hold aggro from any big DPS player, let alone a Pet</li></ol>Also ... just to point out some interesting aggro mechanics ...As a Summoner continues to gear up and do more personal DPS thier pet does not keep pace. The Shared Stats only go so far to increase the pet DPS. Stats such as Hit Points are not shared .. as well as others. When you solo w/pet on a single mob .. and the caster has Aggro 75% of the time you'll understand that pet aggro is not as big of a problem as some people think. Yeah ... The Summoner themselves can rip aggro from the summoner pet and HOLD it ... so I'm hoping the tanks can do it to.</blockquote>EDITED: Not even worht it this Nrgy guy is starting to sound like he's posting on the wrong game forums.

Nrgy

07-19-2011, 07:17 PM

<cite>Trenshero@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Nrgy wrote:</cite><blockquote>I am pretty sure everyone agrees with this ....What we, the summoning casters, don't agree with is that the pet aggro mechanic is broken.We, the summoning casters, feel that<ol><li>A knowledgable summoning caster can deal with his/her own aggro issues with the current mechanics</li><li>A tank without knowledge/gear/adornments isn't going to hold aggro from any big DPS player, let alone a Pet</li></ol>Also ... just to point out some interesting aggro mechanics ...As a Summoner continues to gear up and do more personal DPS thier pet does not keep pace. The Shared Stats only go so far to increase the pet DPS. Stats such as Hit Points are not shared .. as well as others. When you solo w/pet on a single mob .. and the caster has Aggro 75% of the time you'll understand that pet aggro is not as big of a problem as some people think. Yeah ... The Summoner themselves can rip aggro from the summoner pet and HOLD it ... so I'm hoping the tanks can do it to.</blockquote>EDITED: Not even worht (worth) it (,) this Nrgy guy is starting to sound like he's posting on the wrong game forums [thread]. (spelling) [<span style="line-height: 115%; font-family: "Verdana","sans-serif"; color: #444444; font-size: 8.5pt; mso-fareast-font-family: Calibri; mso-fareast-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-bidi-font-family: 'Times New Roman'; mso-bidi-theme-font: minor-bidi; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-fareast-language: EN-US; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA;">unintended misdirection]</blockquote>The only reason I'm posting here is so that Summoner Pets do not get nerfed because someone (1) who has been playing a summoners for barely 3 months has issues with pet aggro where no game mechanics issue exists.Point #1: If the Pet generates disproportionate aggro then when a summoner and a caster fight the same mob the pet would have aggro 100% of the time. This is NOT that case when a summoner gears up. When a summoner is not geared up then this is true. Now if a summoner can hold aggro above the pet then ANY tank that is properly geared can do the same or better.Point #2: If ANY DPS class out gears ANY tank class then whatever that DPS class is, summoner or other, the tank will NOT be able to hold aggro.Is that really so hard to understand?Point #3: If a summoner is in a group and finds they pull aggro from a tank ALL the time, then the summoner needs to either a) find a new tank or b) deal with the aggro issues themselves with the tools they already have. Summoner classes already have a bad reputation for being an easy mode, set-it and forget-it /pet attack class without this type of misinformation being out there. It's not always the Games fault. It's not always the DPS's fault. It's not always the Healer's fault. Sometimes it ACTUALLY is the tank's fault.And to be honest... its posts like this which will be the down fall of any dungeon finder SOE tries to implement. Gear score is not equal to skill, it never has been and it never will be.

Caethre

07-20-2011, 07:01 AM

<cite>Nrgy wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Trenshero@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Nrgy wrote:</cite><blockquote>I am pretty sure everyone agrees with this ....What we, the summoning casters, don't agree with is that the pet aggro mechanic is broken.We, the summoning casters, feel that<ol><li>A knowledgable summoning caster can deal with his/her own aggro issues with the current mechanics</li><li>A tank without knowledge/gear/adornments isn't going to hold aggro from any big DPS player, let alone a Pet</li></ol>Also ... just to point out some interesting aggro mechanics ...As a Summoner continues to gear up and do more personal DPS thier pet does not keep pace. The Shared Stats only go so far to increase the pet DPS. Stats such as Hit Points are not shared .. as well as others. When you solo w/pet on a single mob .. and the caster has Aggro 75% of the time you'll understand that pet aggro is not as big of a problem as some people think. Yeah ... The Summoner themselves can rip aggro from the summoner pet and HOLD it ... so I'm hoping the tanks can do it to.</blockquote>EDITED: Not even worht (worth) it (,) this Nrgy guy is starting to sound like he's posting on the wrong game forums [thread]. (spelling) [unintended misdirection]</blockquote>The only reason I'm posting here is so that Summoner Pets do not get nerfed because someone (1) who has been playing a summoners for barely 3 months has issues with pet aggro where no game mechanics issue exists.Point #1: If the Pet generates disproportionate aggro then when a summoner and a caster fight the same mob the pet would have aggro 100% of the time. This is NOT that case when a summoner gears up. When a summoner is not geared up then this is true. Now if a summoner can hold aggro above the pet then ANY tank that is properly geared can do the same or better.Point #2: If ANY DPS class out gears ANY tank class then whatever that DPS class is, summoner or other, the tank will NOT be able to hold aggro.Is that really so hard to understand?Point #3: If a summoner is in a group and finds they pull aggro from a tank ALL the time, then the summoner needs to either a) find a new tank or b) deal with the aggro issues themselves with the tools they already have. Summoner classes already have a bad reputation for being an easy mode, set-it and forget-it /pet attack class without this type of misinformation being out there. It's not always the Games fault. It's not always the DPS's fault. It's not always the Healer's fault. Sometimes it ACTUALLY is the tank's fault.And to be honest... its posts like this which will be the down fall of any dungeon finder SOE tries to implement. Gear score is not equal to skill, it never has been and it never will be.</blockquote>(( Nrgy,When you say "we, the summoning casters, feel that..." you are attempting to speak for all summoners. You overstate your importance, you are merely one player. You do not speak for most summoners, and you most certianly do not speak for me - you speak for yourself only.I have played a Conjuror since November 2004. I know the class very well. This has not been an issue in years past, it is relevant to the situation now. The situation for normal players in normal guilds, decent players, those geared in PQ or RyGorr and perhaps x2 and maybe even the odd piece of "EM" raidgear, is exactly as the OP describes. It is exactly what almost every non-hardcore raider in this thread is saying. It is also what pretty much every tank I ever group with finds about summoners (especially conjurors) pets. And when I am playing the tank, it is what I find *myself*, when I have equivalently geared conjurors in groups with me, unless I can get significant hate transfer.>> Mage pets are dragging aggro overly much at the moment. <<Personally, on my summoner, I mitigate this somewhat by taking Energy Clash instead of Soulburn, since I almost exclusively join PUGs, and tanks get fed up of my pet forever tanking unless the group has massive hate transfer (and many PUGs do not, that's just the nature of PUGs, you take what you can get and get on with it rather than whining about not having the right classes).However, from what I have seen on this thread, I believe that SOE are now looking into this.This is not a request for any kind of "nerf". No changes to DPS are needed here. It is a request that the mage pet (not the tank pet) aggro generation is looked at, to see if it is working as intended, or is indeed just overblown at the moment (as it seems to be).As an aside, if this is not an issue in the hardcore-raidguild game, for the 0.1% of players grouping with tanks in full HM raid gear, well good for them. However, why people from that tiny minority come here and post things to the effect of "we don't have a problem, therefore there is not a problem", is beyond me. ))

Banditman

07-20-2011, 10:12 AM

And how many of those Conjurors are running Minion's Intent? I'll wager NONE.Yes, I have been there. I've seen the aggro issues. Minion's Intent is in a mirror in one of my houses and in every case when there isn't a massive gear difference, MI has corrected any imbalanced aggro due to lack of buffs. When there is a massive gear difference, NOTHING will fix it.Summoners as a whole need to get used to the fact that they are, for the first time in a long time, a DPS class at all levels of the game. The last couple expansions it was true for the end game raiding Summoners, but not so much for heroic ones. Now, with shared stats, it is true at all levels and some folks aren't accustomed to dealing with it.Now, what WOULD be nice is if some of the more "fringe" type of de-aggro things worked properly for pets. Synergism, Peaceful Link, etc. It would be "nice" if de-hate was a shared stat. These things, yes, need to be considered and looked at.

drakkenshie

07-20-2011, 11:01 AM

<cite>anditman wrote:</cite><blockquote>And how many of those Conjurors are running Minion's Intent? I'll wager NONE.Yes, I have been there. I've seen the aggro issues. Minion's Intent is in a mirror in one of my houses and in every case when there isn't a massive gear difference, MI has corrected any imbalanced aggro due to lack of buffs. When there is a massive gear difference, NOTHING will fix it.Summoners as a whole need to get used to the fact that they are, for the first time in a long time, a DPS class at all levels of the game. The last couple expansions it was true for the end game raiding Summoners, but not so much for heroic ones. Now, with shared stats, it is true at all levels and some folks aren't accustomed to dealing with it.Now, what WOULD be nice is if some of the more "fringe" type of de-aggro things worked properly for pets. Synergism, Peaceful Link, etc. It would be "nice" if de-hate was a shared stat. These things, yes, need to be considered and looked at.</blockquote>Not seen anyone go so far out of their way to misunderstand deliberately or otherwise in a long time, as some of the people derailing this thread.Minion's Intent requires 250AA and some of the conjurors in question are nowhere near that, which means they also often don't have the AA to cause a lot of pet damage either.You keep saying over and over its about DPS and it isn't, and this has been stated over and over and over. Yes conjurors need to deal with doing more damage now. This thread would not be here if that was the issue, that's just basic game mechanics.If I burn something with Elemental Blast it spikes then sure, I expect to pull aggro now and then, but that is not the issue. Our mage pets are pulling aggro even when they are doing a lot less damage than the other pets and players in the group.Two nites ago my mage pet pulled aggro on a weak hit while a level 90 raid geared monk was doing >10K DPS average consistently, and her spikes were higher than my pet's EB hit (I'm only level 81 in T2 gear). A wizard in the group was also zapping several times higher than my pet and was not drawing aggro.That is a broken mechanic somewhere, it makes no sense.Also as a side issue, our de-aggro spell doesn't appear very effective, even with max AA in it.

Wasuna

07-20-2011, 11:07 AM

Summoner agro is split between the pet and summoner. That was perfect when then summoner and pet did 80% of what the wizard did. Cover the wizard for hate and your good to go. In order for the summoners to have a hate threashold that they would have to watch like every other class, SoE made it so the dehate spells that all player classes enjoy did not affect the pets.Prior to the last two expansions, most summoners didn't even come clsoe to 80% of a wziards damage. My wifes summoner did and she would always play havoc with me with agro when she had her mage pet out which is always. She was invited to top end raid guilds over and over due to her DPS in PUG's with continal comments about how it's nice to see a summer do nice DPS.Now that summoner dps is top teir, this mechanism of not dehate buffs working on pets means that there is NO way to mitigate the pets agro other than brute force agro to directly compete with the pet.Nrgy and Banditman's veiled statements that all tanks and summoners that aren't in their level of gear are less than smart, don't understand their class and just don't do what they are suppose to do is 100% insulting. Just becasue I CHOOSE to not devote my life to a top end raiding guild like I did in EQ1 does not mean I'm stupid or do not know how to play my class.Like I said in an earlier post, as soon as you show me how to pull these magical hate buffs that I have to LEARN about out of my fabled back side I'll be more than happy to bow down to your superior knowledge and arrogance.

gatrm

07-20-2011, 11:53 AM

I will admit that I have not read every post, but clearly some summoners believe that their mage pets are generating an inordinately high TPS that is out of line of the dps they are doing.There are a number of possible reasons that you are seeing this and most of them have nothing to do with mechanics.Two things:First, if this was the case, it would be the case at all levels, and I will tell you from experience, that my level 57 conj mage pet does not reliably hold aggro off my conj, even with defensive stance up. If hate levels were so far off, the mage pet would maintain aggro, and easily pull aggro off me, the conj, but this does not happen.Ok, I know, you are going to complain that it's at 90 you are having the issue and pre 90 doesn't count....Second, One thing that you must realize is TANKS TPS is lower than it should be. This thread should really be about buffing the aggro generation abilities of tanks. Without aggro transfers or + hate buffs, Tanks have a heck of a time keeping aggro off of all dps classes, especially since DPS for scouts/mages is increasing significantly faster than hate generation is improving for tanks. If you send the pet in too soon, before the tank is in position, or if the tank is stunned on pull, then you as a dps class will have aggro and either die or tank the mob. IF however, you are patient, do not pull the mob, do not engage the mob before the tank does on a body pull, and allow the tank to get in position, then the tank is more likely to maintain aggro. My biggest annoyance as a tank is when the dps engages before I do. If allowed to engage first, in groups I run with summoners, I will mostly just lose aggro to the conjuror pet when EB is used, if then. Now brigands on the other hand...forget it. If there is a good brigand and no hate for me then the brig will most likely have aggro. Probably the same for a ranger, but it's been forever since I've actually seen a ranger in game. I think they are extinct.Tank hate generation is more a problem when tanking instances than when in raids, due to hate management tools and group makeups available in raids- But I also believe that it is in groups rather than raids where the summoners are having the biggest problem with their pets.

drakkenshie

07-20-2011, 12:17 PM

<cite>gatrm wrote:</cite><blockquote>I will admit that I have not read every post, but clearly some summoners believe that their mage pets are generating an inordinately high TPS that is out of line of the dps they are doing.There are a number of possible reasons that you are seeing this and most of them have nothing to do with mechanics.Two things:First, if this was the case, it would be the case at all levels, and I will tell you from experience, that my level 57 conj mage pet does not reliably hold aggro off my conj, even with defensive stance up. If hate levels were so far off, the mage pet would maintain aggro, and easily pull aggro off me, the conj, but this does not happen.Ok, I know, you are going to complain that it's at 90 you are having the issue and pre 90 doesn't count....Second, One thing that you must realize is TANKS TPS is lower than it should be. This thread should really be about buffing the aggro generation abilities of tanks. Without aggro transfers or + hate buffs, Tanks have a heck of a time keeping aggro off of all dps classes, especially since DPS for scouts/mages is increasing significantly faster than hate generation is improving for tanks. If you send the pet in too soon, before the tank is in position, or if the tank is stunned on pull, then you as a dps class will have aggro and either die or tank the mob. IF however, you are patient, do not pull the mob, do not engage the mob before the tank does on a body pull, and allow the tank to get in position, then the tank is more likely to maintain aggro. My biggest annoyance as a tank is when the dps engages before I do. If allowed to engage first, in groups I run with summoners, I will mostly just lose aggro to the conjuror pet when EB is used, if then. Now brigands on the other hand...forget it. If there is a good brigand and no hate for me then the brig will most likely have aggro. Probably the same for a ranger, but it's been forever since I've actually seen a ranger in game. I think they are extinct.Tank hate generation is more a problem when tanking instances than when in raids, due to hate management tools and group makeups available in raids- But I also believe that it is in groups rather than raids where the summoners are having the biggest problem with their pets.</blockquote>I appreciate your thoughts, you seem to be really trying and not just to derail the thread. You also do bring up some useful points.You are correct that the issue is mostly in non-raid instances, though I sometimes see it in overland stuff as well.I also agree there are tank hate issues.However, those issues shoudl affect anyone doing DPS, not just specifically a mage pet.First of all, I am not level 90, I am only 81, and this is a recent problem.Also yes, I can pull hate off of my mage pet at times, sure, depending on how I'm geared and set up. I can pull it off my tank pet, though mostly because I think it needs some work on hate.What we are talking about is the mage pet pulling aggro even when it is not doing much DPS or is doing lower DPS than other classes which aren't getting aggro. In other words the wizard zaps for 20K and doesn't pull aggro, but my pet might make even a weak hit and somehow gets aggro.Also above you say: "you as a dps class will have aggro and either die or tank the mob". Actually, what we are seeing often is the pet will get aggro and die, and the mob goes back to the tank instead of the conjuror. Normally when I burn something hard and cause my pet to get aggro, if it dies the mob hits me, but when these anomalies occur the mob isn't hitting me at all when the pet dies. That seems to further indicate non-standard mechanics.** other things **The following comments are off-topic, just musing since you brought some things up about cooperation with tanks.Yes, I agree that a lot of players don't give the tanks a chance. If people would read it and listen, it would be worthwhile to make a seperate thread about it and get it stickied.When I've had one too many energy drinks to stay awake, I've been known to jump the gun myself. DPS is intoxicating enough without excessive B vitamins propping up your addled brain.Its even harder if you pet tank. My conjuror can tank a lot of zones, if I could just get the group to cooperate. People just refuse to give a chance to build aggro. Then when they do take aggro, they do several things which just make it far worse:<ul><li>they won't stop hitting the mob</li><li>they don't use their de-aggro</li><li>they run</li><li>they won't move so you can see what's hitting them and/or move close enough to you for rescue</li></ul>Those are all valid issues along with the ones you brought up.

Banditman

07-20-2011, 12:54 PM

[Edited]Nevermind. You're right, pet aggro is completely out of hand. My pet has been tanking for months now and I had no idea.

Trensharo

07-20-2011, 01:34 PM

Trensharo

07-20-2011, 01:40 PM

Trensharo

07-20-2011, 01:44 PM

<cite>Banditman wrote:</cite><blockquote>And how many of those Conjurors are running Minion's Intent? I'll wager NONE.Yes, I have been there. I've seen the aggro issues. Minion's Intent is in a mirror in one of my houses and in every case when there isn't a massive gear difference, MI has corrected any imbalanced aggro due to lack of buffs. When there is a massive gear difference, NOTHING will fix it.Summoners as a whole need to get used to the fact that they are, for the first time in a long time, a DPS class at all levels of the game. The last couple expansions it was true for the end game raiding Summoners, but not so much for heroic ones. Now, with shared stats, it is true at all levels and some folks aren't accustomed to dealing with it.Now, what WOULD be nice is if some of the more "fringe" type of de-aggro things worked properly for pets. Synergism, Peaceful Link, etc. It would be "nice" if de-hate was a shared stat. These things, yes, need to be considered and looked at.</blockquote>If Summoners are a DPS class at all levels, then why is their threat so imbalanced compared to other DPS classes.This has nothing to do with anyone thinking the Summoners:1. Do too Much DPS2. Do too Little DPS3. Are or aren't a DPS classThe issue isn't DPS. It's the pet's TPS.There's absolutely no reason to nerf the DPS of a pet because it's TPS is out of whack, so I dunno why all these 'the sky is about to fall' people are butchering the thread.The TPS of the pet is obviously not right, and it seems like everyone agrees yet they're all trying to defend it to NOT get nerfed? Lol. Sorry. I've never seen this type of behavior before...

Nrgy

07-20-2011, 02:15 PM

<cite>Trenshero@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Banditman wrote:</cite><blockquote>And how many of those Conjurors are running Minion's Intent? I'll wager NONE.Yes, I have been there. I've seen the aggro issues. Minion's Intent is in a mirror in one of my houses and in every case when there isn't a massive gear difference, MI has corrected any imbalanced aggro due to lack of buffs. When there is a massive gear difference, NOTHING will fix it.Summoners as a whole need to get used to the fact that they are, for the first time in a long time, a DPS class at all levels of the game. The last couple expansions it was true for the end game raiding Summoners, but not so much for heroic ones. Now, with shared stats, it is true at all levels and some folks aren't accustomed to dealing with it.Now, what WOULD be nice is if some of the more "fringe" type of de-aggro things worked properly for pets. Synergism, Peaceful Link, etc. It would be "nice" if de-hate was a shared stat. These things, yes, need to be considered and looked at.</blockquote>If Summoners are a DPS class at all levels, then why is their threat so imbalanced compared to other DPS classes.This has nothing to do with anyone thinking the Summoners:1. Do too Much DPS2. Do too Little DPS3. Are or aren't a DPS classThe issue isn't DPS. It's the pet's TPS.There's absolutely no reason to nerf the DPS of a pet because it's TPS is out of whack, so I dunno why all these 'the sky is about to fall' people are butchering the thread.The TPS of the pet is obviously not right, and it seems like everyone agrees yet they're all trying to defend it to NOT get nerfed? Lol. Sorry. I've never seen this type of behavior before...</blockquote>The trouble is this entire thread should #1 be in the Class forums and #2 is completely wrong and misleading.TPS = DPS if you 'fix' TPS it will simply lower DPS. Every TPS point is generated via some forumla, Players and Pets use the same forumla, although that may be unconfirmed it has been accepted mechanics for years.There is NO ISSUE with Pet threat. There is an issue with Tank Hate gain .. and there are many posts about it in the fighter forums discussing it. Pet DPS has only been increased due to the Shared stats and removal of Pet gear. It has now been 5 MONTHS since DOV was release and this is the FIRST post about pet aggro. If this was an issue it would have been an issue in month one. There isn't and wasn't and that is simpley becasue there is NO ISSUE. <ul><li>If unequally geared players group then there is going to be aggro issues, this will always be true. </li><li>If unequally skilled players group then there is going to be aggro issues, this will always be true.</li></ul>This thread points out that unskilled players will always have issues regardless of what thier gear happens to be.'One rain drop doesn't make a shower' and this threat is that rain drop. And if by 'Elitist Stance' you mean 'Know how to play' then yes, thank you. I think everyone who plays any class should be elitist in that sense.

Ryai

07-20-2011, 02:15 PM

<cite>drakkenshield wrote:</cite><blockquote>You are correct that the issue is mostly in non-raid instances, though I sometimes see it in overland stuff as well.I also agree there are tank hate issues.What we are talking about is the mage pet pulling aggro even when it is not doing much DPS or is doing lower DPS than other classes which aren't getting aggro. In other words the wizard zaps for 20K and doesn't pull aggro, but my pet might make even a weak hit and somehow gets aggro.Also above you say: "you as a dps class will have aggro and either die or tank the mob". Actually, what we are seeing often is the pet will get aggro and die, and the mob goes back to the tank instead of the conjuror. Normally when I burn something hard and cause my pet to get aggro, if it dies the mob hits me, but when these anomalies occur the mob isn't hitting me at all when the pet dies. That seems to further indicate non-standard mechanics.</blockquote>It is easiest observed in raid instances where you have other mages putting out equivalent numbers. It is definitely a raid issue. An EB does less damage than a manaburn but rips anyways and the wizard doesn't? Tank hate issues are non-existant in most raids unless summoner pets are present. Summoner pets do NOT put out the kind of DPS that justifies ripping even at full bore. A sorc does that, not a summoner pet by itself.Yes, taunts are useless. But every good tank in game has learned to deal with that.The fact of the matter is that pet THREAT(HATE) mechanics need to be looked at. They are not operating correctly at high end. There is another post in this thread that states they leave their conj out of certain encounters, not because of underperformance, but because his pet screws up the encounter. That in and of itself shows that something is wrong.If you haven't raided x4 content in DoV, you really can't refute what Trensharo is saying. Because its a known problem there, over. And over. And over. Good summoners know that they can rip at any point in time simply because the mechanics are off with their pets. Our conjurer does it ALL the time and ALWAYS when he intends to because he can temporarily OT for a few secs to aid in recovery.Pet threat is off.

Nrgy

07-20-2011, 02:33 PM

<cite>Cyan@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>drakkenshield wrote:</cite><blockquote>You are correct that the issue is mostly in non-raid instances, though I sometimes see it in overland stuff as well.I also agree there are tank hate issues.What we are talking about is the mage pet pulling aggro even when it is not doing much DPS or is doing lower DPS than other classes which aren't getting aggro. In other words the wizard zaps for 20K and doesn't pull aggro, but my pet might make even a weak hit and somehow gets aggro.Also above you say: "you as a dps class will have aggro and either die or tank the mob". Actually, what we are seeing often is the pet will get aggro and die, and the mob goes back to the tank instead of the conjuror. Normally when I burn something hard and cause my pet to get aggro, if it dies the mob hits me, but when these anomalies occur the mob isn't hitting me at all when the pet dies. That seems to further indicate non-standard mechanics.</blockquote>It is easiest observed in raid instances where you have other mages putting out equivalent numbers. It is definitely a raid issue. An EB does less damage than a manaburn but rips anyways and the wizard doesn't? Tank hate issues are non-existant in most raids unless summoner pets are present. Summoner pets do NOT put out the kind of DPS that justifies ripping even at full bore. A sorc does that, not a summoner pet by itself.Yes, taunts are useless. But every good tank in game has learned to deal with that.The fact of the matter is that pet THREAT(HATE) mechanics need to be looked at. They are not operating correctly at high end. There is another post in this thread that states they leave their conj out of certain encounters, not because of underperformance, but because his pet screws up the encounter. That in and of itself shows that something is wrong.If you haven't raided x4 content in DoV, you really can't refute what Trensharo is saying. Because its a known problem there, over. And over. And over. Good summoners know that they can rip at any point in time simply because the mechanics are off with their pets. Our conjurer does it ALL the time and ALWAYS when he intends to because he can temporarily OT for a few secs to aid in recovery.Pet threat is off.</blockquote>Again .. this is NOT an Pet Threat issue .... again... again... againIf we want to complain that DOV Hate procs and DOV Hate modifiers do not appliy to Pets then that is already known and its been posted before. Hate modifiers have nothing to do with Threat gain. Comparing Players WITH modifiers against Pets WITHOUT modifiers is just plain sillyPets do NOT benifit from Hate modifiers as players do. Wizzys doing twice the DPS as Pets have modifiers .. they have modifiers from thier own spells, Items, Adornments, maybe other group player buffs, maybe other raid player buffs. In this case 1 <> 1. Also it it is not known how TPS is formulated but it is assumed for a long time that many fast hits (10 8 100 = 1000 DPS) generate much more hate then a single big hit (1*1000 = 1000 DPS). So in the case of EB hitting 10 times in 1 second vs a Manaburn hitting 1 time are also not equal. Additionally, when you press 'pet attack' it is a sprint each and every time. the pet will do the absolute most DPS it can do regardless of overland trash or x4 raid bosses. Pets are 'All go, No slow' dots players are not equal on every encounter.The only solution to a Pet Threat issue as it hsa been presented here is to lower the pet dps. Summoners in x4 gear are doing huge DPS and that isn't going to last long. They (SOE) has not estimated the inflation of stats as it converts to DPS. The crazy amount of Potency and Critical Bonus you can acquire are the casue for many of these issue.Can some players rip aggro at will .... yeah ... so what!

Loranthala

07-20-2011, 02:37 PM

I would put money that if threat were a shared stat, and things like Peaceful Link and Synergism worked on pets, this thread never would have been made. Two easy fixes, and the people who seem to think there is a TPS problem wouldn't think so anymore. Its obvious when you're comparing a wizard with PL, Synergism, and troub dehate on to a pet who gets none of those benefits, the pet is going to pull agro lol.

Ryai

07-20-2011, 02:38 PM

<cite>Simonx@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote>I would put money that if threat were a shared stat, and things like Peaceful Link and Synergism worked on pets, this thread never would have been made. Two easy fixes, and the people who seem to think there is a TPS problem wouldn't think so anymore. Its obvious when you're comparing a wizard with PL, Synergism, and troub dehate on to a pet who gets none of those benefits, the pet is going to pull agro lol.</blockquote>This is exactly what I'm saying.

Ryai

07-20-2011, 02:45 PM

<cite>Nrgy wrote:</cite><blockquote>Also it it is not known how TPS is formulated but it is assumed for a long time that many fast hits (10 8 100 = 1000 DPS) generate much more hate then a single big hit (1*1000 = 1000 DPS). So in the case of EB hitting 10 times in 1 second vs a Manaburn hitting 1 time are also not equal. Additionally, when you press 'pet attack' it is a sprint each and every time. the pet will do the absolute most DPS it can do regardless of overland trash or x4 raid bosses. Pets are 'All go, No slow' dots players are not equal on every encounter.</blockquote>Yes. It is known. 1 damage(or taunt threat)=1 threat(Which is then multiplied by hate gain/loss.) Really. Basic math, thats all it is. Taunts keep pace due to crit mechanics. There is nothing unknown about it. If you had EVER tanked in a real situation you'd understand this. Your multiple fast hits theory is absurd and wrong.Again. Pets do NOT put out the kind of DPS to justify them ripping like they do. Parse it out. Rename your pet to something different than you, run ACT. You'll see.

Nrgy

07-20-2011, 02:48 PM

<cite>Cyan@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Simonx@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote>I would put money that if threat were a shared stat, and things like Peaceful Link and Synergism worked on pets, this thread never would have been made. Two easy fixes, and the people who seem to think there is a TPS problem wouldn't think so anymore. Its obvious when you're comparing a wizard with PL, Synergism, and troub dehate on to a pet who gets none of those benefits, the pet is going to pull agro lol.</blockquote>This is exactly what I'm saying.</blockquote>Then I misunderstood your post as it seems to lead me to believe the contrary, 'Pet Threat is Off'. This is my fault for misinterpretingyour intent.Threat <> Hate when buffs and mods are in place, pets get no hate mods, ergo Pet rip aggro over other DPS. We all agree now ...There is no Pet Threat mechanics issue.

Nrgy

07-20-2011, 02:57 PM

<cite>Cyan@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Nrgy wrote:</cite><blockquote>Also it it is not known how TPS is formulated but it is assumed for a long time that many fast hits (10 8 100 = 1000 DPS) generate much more hate then a single big hit (1*1000 = 1000 DPS). So in the case of EB hitting 10 times in 1 second vs a Manaburn hitting 1 time are also not equal. Additionally, when you press 'pet attack' it is a sprint each and every time. the pet will do the absolute most DPS it can do regardless of overland trash or x4 raid bosses. Pets are 'All go, No slow' dots players are not equal on every encounter.</blockquote>Yes. It is known. 1 damage(or taunt threat)=1 threat(Which is then multiplied by hate gain/loss.) Really. Basic math, thats all it is. Taunts keep pace due to crit mechanics. There is nothing unknown about it. If you had EVER tanked in a real situation you'd understand this. Your multiple fast hits theory is absurd and wrong.Again. Pets do NOT put out the kind of DPS to justify them ripping like they do. Parse it out. Rename your pet to something different than you, run ACT. You'll see.</blockquote>It is not simple math ... it has never been and will never be disclosed how TPS and Hate are generated. It has always been assumed and will always be assumed that 1 DPS = 1 threat. You can say multiple hits have bo factor in place, thats fine and its nothing more then a therory. That is how it is in other MMO's and possibily in EQ 1 iirc. It doesn't really matter neither therory is right in the eyes of SOE.Pet issues evolve from Shared stats from geared players in combination with DOV hate mods do not apply to pets. Pet have high DPS with zzero mods. I find it humorous that someone thinks they can whip out a wrist-watch calculator and break down SOE's all mighty, top secret, end-all-be-all Threat forumla which they've kept under lock-n-key and is more sucure then the 'Coke' formula ever thought about being.

drakkenshie

07-20-2011, 03:00 PM

[<cite>Nrgy wrote:</cite><blockquote>Again .. this is NOT an Pet Threat issue .... again... again... again</blockquote>What *YOU* are talking about is not a pet threat issue, that is correct. If a pet does the same damage as a wizard and there are threat modifiers on the wizard, then sure the pet does generate more hate.My pet is drawing aggro, my level 81 pet, in a group of mentoring level 90 DoV raid geared tanks, mages, and others, when he is not doing high damage. I am not the DoV geared DPS monster you are thinking of and neither is my pet.Everything else is fine, I like the changes to my conjuror and the extra DPS, since it isn't the issue I'm talking about, isn't bothering me. Its pretty easy to deal with that, although Magic Leash really isn't very effectifve and we shoudl be able to apply hate mods to our pets.Really, this thread is split into two parts: the issue I'm talking about, and higher end summoners who need pet hate mods so overall they have the same aggro control as other mages. This is also and issue that needs to be addressed.[ trimmed, no real use in the rest ]

DotuMing

07-20-2011, 03:15 PM

<cite>Nrgy wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Cyan@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Nrgy wrote:</cite><blockquote>Also it it is not known how TPS is formulated but it is assumed for a long time that many fast hits (10 8 100 = 1000 DPS) generate much more hate then a single big hit (1*1000 = 1000 DPS). So in the case of EB hitting 10 times in 1 second vs a Manaburn hitting 1 time are also not equal. Additionally, when you press 'pet attack' it is a sprint each and every time. the pet will do the absolute most DPS it can do regardless of overland trash or x4 raid bosses. Pets are 'All go, No slow' dots players are not equal on every encounter.</blockquote>Yes. It is known. 1 damage(or taunt threat)=1 threat(Which is then multiplied by hate gain/loss.) Really. Basic math, thats all it is. Taunts keep pace due to crit mechanics. There is nothing unknown about it. If you had EVER tanked in a real situation you'd understand this. Your multiple fast hits theory is absurd and wrong.Again. Pets do NOT put out the kind of DPS to justify them ripping like they do. Parse it out. Rename your pet to something different than you, run ACT. You'll see.</blockquote>It is not simple math ... it has never been and will never be disclosed how TPS and Hate are generated. It has always been assumed and will always be assumed that 1 DPS = 1 threat. You can say multiple hits have bo factor in place, thats fine and its nothing more then a therory. That is how it is in other MMO's and possibily in EQ 1 iirc. It doesn't really matter neither therory is right in the eyes of SOE.Pet issues evolve from Shared stats from geared players in combination with DOV hate mods do not apply to pets. Pet have high DPS with zzero mods. I find it humorous that someone thinks they can whip out a wrist-watch calculator and break down SOE's all mighty, top secret, end-all-be-all Threat forumla which they've kept under lock-n-key and is more sucure then the 'Coke' formula ever thought about being.</blockquote>Thats great and all but you are missing the point of what these folks are saying. Why should it be an issue to go into either a heroic or raid zone and do less dps than a sorcerer that has the ability to modify his hate with buffs such as adornments, peaceful link, troub dehate when our pets do 65%~ of our damage but yet we cannot modify the hate on them at all except for certain AA's but yet pull aggro on multiple occasions? Please don't give me the argument that we should have to sacrfice a buttload(metric term) of dps to stay under the threat level while our sorcerer counterparts are able to go to 90-95% of their dps ability since they have the ability of hate modifications.Allow hate modifications on summoners pets. Plain and simple. A sorcerer is a single entity putting out dps with availabillity of a multitude of hate decreasers. We on the other hand do not have that luxury.

Wasuna

07-20-2011, 03:31 PM

It is a pet hate issue in that you can not debuff the pets hate.

Nrgy

07-20-2011, 03:36 PM

<cite>drakkenshield wrote:</cite><blockquote>[<cite>Nrgy wrote:</cite><blockquote>Again .. this is NOT an Pet Threat issue .... again... again... again</blockquote>What *YOU* are talking about is not a pet threat issue, that is correct. If a pet does the same damage as a wizard and there are threat modifiers on the wizard, then sure the pet does generate more hate.My pet is drawing aggro, my level 81 pet, in a group of mentoring level 90 DoV raid geared tanks, mages, and others, when he is not doing high damage. I am not the DoV geared DPS monster you are thinking of and neither is my pet.Everything else is fine, I like the changes to my conjuror and the extra DPS, since it isn't the issue I'm talking about, isn't bothering me. Its pretty easy to deal with that, although Magic Leash really isn't very effectifve and we shoudl be able to apply hate mods to our pets.Really, this thread is split into two parts: the issue I'm talking about, and higher end summoners who need pet hate mods so overall they have the same aggro control as other mages. This is also and issue that needs to be addressed.[ trimmed, no real use in the rest ]</blockquote>I agree with you that there is something messed up about you pet pulling aggro off of level 90 raid geared tanks when mentoed to 81. But I assure you, it is not the Pets Threat that is the trouble here.

Nrgy

07-20-2011, 03:52 PM

<cite>DotuMing wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Nrgy wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Cyan@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Nrgy wrote:</cite><blockquote>Also it it is not known how TPS is formulated but it is assumed for a long time that many fast hits (10 8 100 = 1000 DPS) generate much more hate then a single big hit (1*1000 = 1000 DPS). So in the case of EB hitting 10 times in 1 second vs a Manaburn hitting 1 time are also not equal. Additionally, when you press 'pet attack' it is a sprint each and every time. the pet will do the absolute most DPS it can do regardless of overland trash or x4 raid bosses. Pets are 'All go, No slow' dots players are not equal on every encounter.</blockquote>Yes. It is known. 1 damage(or taunt threat)=1 threat(Which is then multiplied by hate gain/loss.) Really. Basic math, thats all it is. Taunts keep pace due to crit mechanics. There is nothing unknown about it. If you had EVER tanked in a real situation you'd understand this. Your multiple fast hits theory is absurd and wrong.Again. Pets do NOT put out the kind of DPS to justify them ripping like they do. Parse it out. Rename your pet to something different than you, run ACT. You'll see.</blockquote>It is not simple math ... it has never been and will never be disclosed how TPS and Hate are generated. It has always been assumed and will always be assumed that 1 DPS = 1 threat. You can say multiple hits have bo factor in place, thats fine and its nothing more then a therory. That is how it is in other MMO's and possibily in EQ 1 iirc. It doesn't really matter neither therory is right in the eyes of SOE.Pet issues evolve from Shared stats from geared players in combination with DOV hate mods do not apply to pets. Pet have high DPS with zzero mods. I find it humorous that someone thinks they can whip out a wrist-watch calculator and break down SOE's all mighty, top secret, end-all-be-all Threat forumla which they've kept under lock-n-key and is more sucure then the 'Coke' formula ever thought about being.</blockquote>Thats great and all but you are missing the point of what these folks are saying. Why should it be an issue to go into either a heroic or raid zone and do less dps than a sorcerer that has the ability to modify his hate with buffs such as adornments, peaceful link, troub dehate when our pets do 65%~ of our damage but yet we cannot modify the hate on them at all except for certain AA's but yet pull aggro on multiple occasions? Please don't give me the argument that we should have to sacrfice a buttload(metric term) of dps to stay under the threat level while our sorcerer counterparts are able to go to 90-95% of their dps ability since they have the ability of hate modifications.Allow hate modifications on summoners pets. Plain and simple. A sorcerer is a single entity putting out dps with availabillity of a multitude of hate decreasers. We on the other hand do not have that luxury. </blockquote>unfortunately, I am not missing the point of the OP. The OP claims that Pets generate more threat then players do and that is incorrect.I agree with you, when you say "Allow hate modifications on summoners pets.". I wish this were true. But imagine IF it were true. My guess would be the other DPS would be put off a bit. The pet mechanic of not allowing Hate mods was done 100% intentially by the Devs. Just like the fact that Pet Health is NOT a Shared Stat and it is self generated and self capped. Again done intentially by the Devs.Why would the Devs or other players want to make the summoners both a top tier DPS class and a low risk threat gainer. It is a balancing act and this is what we have for the moment. The tools are there to deal with it without hardly sacrificing any DPSI use the tools, I do NOT experience aggro issues when I run Heroics or Raid or even PQ's for that matter where this issue would be very much blatant. Most of the time the tank I run with is undergeared and under adorned. I can't say it any more clearly. These are MY experiences and since DOV has been out this is the first threat claiming there is an issue.Regardless, I do not lower my DPS when I'm in any of these situaltion and I always seem to be able to compensate for lower threat output from tanks. Whatever, your millage may very, different players play differently. I run with other people who have Necro's and I find that they usually seem intrested to learn new 'tricks'. Out of all the classes the Necro's have the most 'tricks' except for the Coercers who have a buttload (metric) more and which i happen to also play as a 2-boxed toon with my Necro.

Nrgy

07-20-2011, 04:00 PM

<cite>Wasuna wrote:</cite><blockquote>It is a pet hate issue in that you can not debuff the pets hate.</blockquote>IF and only IF you are using the word 'HATE' as a topic for dicussion and NOT as an issue with Mechanics.Pet generated Hate is working fine and as intended.Pet Hate in general terms is messed up becasue the Devs decided to disallow Hate Mods to effect the pet. Broken becasue Hate Mods like Peaceful Link is a broken mechanic, becasue it can not target the pet. Broken becasue Caster Hate Mods are not part of the Shared Stat package. Broken becasue Summoner AA's which actually do modify hate have pre-DOV values.I am seriously hoping that when the big AA revamp comes along that the Threat mod on Magic Leach get a huge increase and does not stay at the pre-DOV levels as it is now. Might solve a lot of issues.

DotuMing

07-20-2011, 04:21 PM

<cite>Nrgy wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>DotuMing wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Nrgy wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Cyan@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Nrgy wrote:</cite><blockquote>Also it it is not known how TPS is formulated but it is assumed for a long time that many fast hits (10 8 100 = 1000 DPS) generate much more hate then a single big hit (1*1000 = 1000 DPS). So in the case of EB hitting 10 times in 1 second vs a Manaburn hitting 1 time are also not equal. Additionally, when you press 'pet attack' it is a sprint each and every time. the pet will do the absolute most DPS it can do regardless of overland trash or x4 raid bosses. Pets are 'All go, No slow' dots players are not equal on every encounter.</blockquote>Yes. It is known. 1 damage(or taunt threat)=1 threat(Which is then multiplied by hate gain/loss.) Really. Basic math, thats all it is. Taunts keep pace due to crit mechanics. There is nothing unknown about it. If you had EVER tanked in a real situation you'd understand this. Your multiple fast hits theory is absurd and wrong.Again. Pets do NOT put out the kind of DPS to justify them ripping like they do. Parse it out. Rename your pet to something different than you, run ACT. You'll see.</blockquote>It is not simple math ... it has never been and will never be disclosed how TPS and Hate are generated. It has always been assumed and will always be assumed that 1 DPS = 1 threat. You can say multiple hits have bo factor in place, thats fine and its nothing more then a therory. That is how it is in other MMO's and possibily in EQ 1 iirc. It doesn't really matter neither therory is right in the eyes of SOE.Pet issues evolve from Shared stats from geared players in combination with DOV hate mods do not apply to pets. Pet have high DPS with zzero mods. I find it humorous that someone thinks they can whip out a wrist-watch calculator and break down SOE's all mighty, top secret, end-all-be-all Threat forumla which they've kept under lock-n-key and is more sucure then the 'Coke' formula ever thought about being.</blockquote>Thats great and all but you are missing the point of what these folks are saying. Why should it be an issue to go into either a heroic or raid zone and do less dps than a sorcerer that has the ability to modify his hate with buffs such as adornments, peaceful link, troub dehate when our pets do 65%~ of our damage but yet we cannot modify the hate on them at all except for certain AA's but yet pull aggro on multiple occasions? Please don't give me the argument that we should have to sacrfice a buttload(metric term) of dps to stay under the threat level while our sorcerer counterparts are able to go to 90-95% of their dps ability since they have the ability of hate modifications.Allow hate modifications on summoners pets. Plain and simple. A sorcerer is a single entity putting out dps with availabillity of a multitude of hate decreasers. We on the other hand do not have that luxury. </blockquote>unfortunately, I am not missing the point of the OP. The OP claims that Pets generate more threat then players do and that is incorrect.I agree with you, when you say "Allow hate modifications on summoners pets.". I wish this were true. But imagine IF it were true. My guess would be the other DPS would be put off a bit. The pet mechanic of not allowing Hate mods was done 100% intentially by the Devs. Just like the fact that Pet Health is NOT a Shared Stat and it is self generated and self capped. Again done intentially by the Devs.Why would the Devs or other players want to make the summoners both a top tier DPS class and a low risk threat gainer. It is a balancing act and this is what we have for the moment. The tools are there to deal with it without hardly sacrificing any a crapload of DPS (fixed that for you)I use the tools, I do NOT experience aggro issues when I run Heroics or Raid or even PQ's for that matter where this issue would be very much blatant. Most of the time the tank I run with is undergeared and under adorned. I can't say it any more clearly. These are MY experiences and since DOV has been out this is the first threat claiming there is an issue.Regardless, I do not lower my DPS when I'm in any of these situaltion and I always seem to be able to compensate for lower threat output from tanks. Whatever, your millage may very, different players play differently. I run with other people who have Necro's and I find that they usually seem intrested to learn new 'tricks'. Out of all the classes the Necro's have the most 'tricks' except for the Coercers who have a buttload (metric) more and which i happen to also play as a 2-boxed toon with my Necro.</blockquote>Why would other dps be put off by allowing us the same tools that they use??? Let me stress this again. Any other dps class has the ability to moderate their hate in FAR more ways than we do. Period. End of story.Let me put this another way. A sorcerer doing 300k dps can drop his aggro 50% by those very means. Us doing 225k dps will draw aggro onto the pet. We are ONLY talking about the PET.....NOT ME. THE PET!!!!!!! Is that right by any stretch of the imagination? And before you say it yes. If i dont control my pets dps way more than a sorcerer needs to control his own aggro, i WILL draw aggro. I dont know how many times the high dps in our raid groups can throw off manaburn, but if im already sitting at 75% hate and i toss out that EB, then I get aggro so a lot of the times I just cant.The hate of the mage pet IS a problem that needs looking into. Your opinion differs. Great...thats fine. Just dont say that your opinion speaks for the rest of our opinions thank you very much. You are also saying those experiences are just that. Yours and yours alone. When you have more than a few others coming here saying the exact same thing, its something that should be looked into.EDIT****Also one other thing. You are wondering why it is just lately becomming a problem. With the exponential growth in stats such as potency and crit bonus we have seen and exponential growth in hate that cannot be mitigated properly by the pet or our dehate abilities while other dps are still mitigating up to 50%.

Banditman

07-20-2011, 04:21 PM

<cite>Wasuna wrote:</cite><blockquote>It is a pet hate issue in that you can not debuff the pets hate.</blockquote>No it isn't. There are multiple issues there which have been brought up time and again.It's a shared stats issue that our hate modifiers don't transfer. Thus any Adorns we put on, or any AA's we take (and we have some!) which modify our hate do not pass on to our pets. There are actually numerous things we get that don't pass to our pets, additionally noteable is that our RESISTS don't get passed to our pets, making them significantly more squishy in AE's than we are.It's a mechanics issue since . . . well, forever . . . that things like Peaceful Link and Synergism don't affect pets. The description even says so!Finally, you *can* debuff pet hate! There are AA's for that, and those AA's *do* work.

Nrgy

07-20-2011, 06:15 PM

<cite>Banditman wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Wasuna wrote:</cite><blockquote>It is a pet hate issue in that you can not debuff the pets hate.</blockquote>No it isn't. There are multiple issues there which have been brought up time and again.It's a shared stats issue that our hate modifiers don't transfer. Thus any Adorns we put on, or any AA's we take (and we have some!) which modify our hate do not pass on to our pets. There are actually numerous things we get that don't pass to our pets, additionally noteable is that our RESISTS don't get passed to our pets, making them significantly more squishy in AE's than we are.It's a mechanics issue since . . . well, forever . . . that things like Peaceful Link and Synergism don't affect pets. The description even says so!Finally, you *can* debuff pet hate! There are AA's for that, and those AA's *do* work.</blockquote>See... Banditman gets it ... better than me actually. I'm not sure why the rest of 'You' do not.Stop comparing Summoner DPS to sorcerer DPS ... Stop comparing Summoner TPS to sorcerer TPS ... and for all that is holy please stop comparing Pet TPS to sorcerer TPS. There is nothing equal in any of that. Its Apples n' Oranges.Pets do not share Health, Resists, Crit Mit, Crit Chance, Hate Mods from summoner AA, Hate mods from caster adornments, etc...<ul><li>Pets generate their own hate separate from the summoner.</li><li>Pets do not gain benifit from Hate debuffs outside of AA which target them specifically.</li><li>Pets gain threat the same way as any other player, based on 1 Damage = 1 Threat</li><li>Pets are in machine gun mode 100% of the time as soon as you hit the /Pet Attach button</li><li>Pets want to kill mobs or die trying; it’s the Summoners job to decide if that is going to happen</li><li>Summoners have several tools and techniques that will drastically change how the pet is able to function.</li></ul><ul><li>Tank TPS is low ... but this is not a Pet issue</li><li>Deaggro buffs like Peaceful Link, Synergism would apply to pets ... but they do not.</li><li>Summoner Resists were included in the Shared Stat package ... but they aren't</li><li>Summoner dehate adornment applied to the pet ... Nope sorry.</li></ul>Threat is threat and perfectly fine as it is... If a summoner cannot deal with the issue of threat themselves, then ask the devs to enhance something that was actually excluded specifically, but none of it beyond the fighter TPS is actually broken.

DotuMing

07-20-2011, 07:59 PM

<cite>Nrgy wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Banditman wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Wasuna wrote:</cite><blockquote>It is a pet hate issue in that you can not debuff the pets hate.</blockquote>No it isn't. There are multiple issues there which have been brought up time and again.It's a shared stats issue that our hate modifiers don't transfer. Thus any Adorns we put on, or any AA's we take (and we have some!) which modify our hate do not pass on to our pets. There are actually numerous things we get that don't pass to our pets, additionally noteable is that our RESISTS don't get passed to our pets, making them significantly more squishy in AE's than we are.It's a mechanics issue since . . . well, forever . . . that things like Peaceful Link and Synergism don't affect pets. The description even says so!Finally, you *can* debuff pet hate! There are AA's for that, and those AA's *do* work.</blockquote>See... Banditman gets it ... better than me actually. I'm not sure why the rest of 'You' do not.Stop comparing Summoner DPS to sorcerer DPS ... Stop comparing Summoner TPS to sorcerer TPS ... and for all that is holy please stop comparing Pet TPS to sorcerer TPS. There is nothing equal in any of that. Its Apples n' Oranges.Pets do not share Health, Resists, Crit Mit, Crit Chance, Hate Mods from summoner AA, Hate mods from caster adornments, etc...Im not comparing 1 dps to another...im comparing DPS TO DPS. You are just not getting it.<ul><li>Pets generate their own hate separate from the summoner. Wow really. Who would have thunk it! That is the source of the problem when the PET ALONE is pulling aggro from tanks.</li><li>Pets do not gain benifit from Hate debuffs outside of AA which target them specifically. I thought we covered this already....</li><li>Pets gain threat the same way as any other player, based on 1 Damage = 1 Threat. Ummm yea i was pretty sure we covererd this already.</li><li>Pets are in machine gun mode 100% of the time as soon as you hit the /Pet Attach button. Your joking right?</li><li>Pets want to kill mobs or die trying; it’s the Summoners job to decide if that is going to happen. I dont even know how to respond to this one...</li><li>Summoners have several tools and techniques that will drastically change how the pet is able to function. Yea...like oh. I know! Stopping dps and sitting there for awhile or that great trick killing off your pet!!!</li></ul><ul><li>Tank TPS is low ... but this is not a Pet issue. I thought you said it wasnt a TPS issue?</li><li>Deaggro buffs like Peaceful Link, Synergism would apply to pets ... but they do not. And they Should!</li><li>Summoner Resists were included in the Shared Stat package ... but they aren't. I dont much care about the resists...separate topic.</li><li>Summoner dehate adornment applied to the pet ... Nope sorry. And why not? Can another class add one and get the benifits of the adornment? Why not us?</li></ul>Threat is threat and perfectly fine as it is... If a summoner cannot deal with the issue of threat themselves, then ask the devs to enhance something that was actually excluded specifically, but none of it beyond the fighter TPS is actually broken. We could go back and forth like this all night. Its YOUR opinion. DONT speak for me.</blockquote>

Ryai

07-20-2011, 08:43 PM

<cite>Nrgy wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Wasuna wrote:</cite><blockquote>It is a pet hate issue in that you can not debuff the pets hate.</blockquote>IF and only IF you are using the word 'HATE' as a topic for dicussion and NOT as an issue with Mechanics.Pet generated Hate is working fine and as intended.Pet Hate in general terms is messed up becasue the Devs decided to disallow Hate Mods to effect the pet. Broken becasue Hate Mods like Peaceful Link is a broken mechanic, becasue it can not target the pet. Broken becasue Caster Hate Mods are not part of the Shared Stat package. Broken becasue Summoner AA's which actually do modify hate have pre-DOV values.I am seriously hoping that when the big AA revamp comes along that the Threat mod on Magic Leach get a huge increase and does not stay at the pre-DOV levels as it is now. Might solve a lot of issues.</blockquote>You're arguing with yourself... Direct contradiction in sentences 2 and 3. If it was working fine, it wouldn't be messed up.I don't care how it gets fixed. But it needs to be fixed. Every other dps class can benefit from other classes buffs to generate less hate. Summoners should not be expected to stand on their own to reduce their hate when its not expected of any other class.Its a problem. It needs a solution. Claiming there is no problem is wrong when there is an inherent imbalance. Its unfair to everyone. Oh, and your guess about other DPS caring? You're wrong. As a raid warlock, I'd love to see summoners get the same treatment as sorcs when it comes to hate reduction. Its stupid to have them hamstringing themselves and playing around the issue of pet threat generation. Shared stat, whatever, I'm not going to argue about semantics.Simple fact is that summoner pets rip when they shouldn't and it should be possible for raids to engineer group setup against them ripping. Just like every other class in game.

Trensharo

07-20-2011, 10:58 PM

Speccing into Pet DeHate (in Heroic Tree) is only viable for HM geared players who are capped reuse (and then, most would only put 8 points there).Seriously if I'm going to start speccing into useless AAs (and yes, I've TRIED it) and butchering my performance that much to stop a pet doing (compared to other DPS and even chanters) terrible DPS form pulling agro then I mind as well just recruit a Wizard or Warlock to replace me.I'm done arguing about this and being trolled by this Nrgy guy. SOE needs to simply fix this issue.And while we're talking about stuff they need to fix, they either need to take away the Mage pet's melee auto attack, or give it a ranged auto attack like other mages when we get that update.Tired of my pet suiciding on bosses just because my call servant was down for another 1.3 seconds when the boss turned to riposte.

gatrm

07-27-2011, 03:47 PM

<cite>Trenshero@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>gatrm wrote:</cite><blockquote>I will admit that I have not read every post, but clearly some summoners believe that their mage pets are generating an inordinately high TPS that is out of line of the dps they are doing.There are a number of possible reasons that you are seeing this and most of them have nothing to do with mechanics.Two things:First, if this was the case, it would be the case at all levels, and I will tell you from experience, that my level 57 conj mage pet does not reliably hold aggro off my conj, even with defensive stance up. If hate levels were so far off, the mage pet would maintain aggro, and easily pull aggro off me, the conj, but this does not happen.Ok, I know, you are going to complain that it's at 90 you are having the issue and pre 90 doesn't count....Second, One thing that you must realize is TANKS TPS is lower than it should be. This thread should really be about buffing the aggro generation abilities of tanks. Without aggro transfers or + hate buffs, Tanks have a heck of a time keeping aggro off of all dps classes, especially since DPS for scouts/mages is increasing significantly faster than hate generation is improving for tanks. If you send the pet in too soon, before the tank is in position, or if the tank is stunned on pull, then you as a dps class will have aggro and either die or tank the mob. IF however, you are patient, do not pull the mob, do not engage the mob before the tank does on a body pull, and allow the tank to get in position, then the tank is more likely to maintain aggro. My biggest annoyance as a tank is when the dps engages before I do. If allowed to engage first, in groups I run with summoners, I will mostly just lose aggro to the conjuror pet when EB is used, if then. Now brigands on the other hand...forget it. If there is a good brigand and no hate for me then the brig will most likely have aggro. Probably the same for a ranger, but it's been forever since I've actually seen a ranger in game. I think they are extinct.Tank hate generation is more a problem when tanking instances than when in raids, due to hate management tools and group makeups available in raids- But I also believe that it is in groups rather than raids where the summoners are having the biggest problem with their pets.</blockquote>I'm not meaning to be mean, but your Conjuror is 57. 57 Conjurors don't have Mage Pets with 3k+ INT, ~200 Potency/CB, 100% Crit Rates, and 15%+ Spell Double Attack on top of nukes that hit for 80-100k+. They also don't have EB and Soulburn (cast from the pet).The fact that a 57 Conjuror's mage pet cannot tank off of the Conjuror Reliably has absolutely nothing to do with the issues at level 90 in decent gear.The whole basis for your post is, well... laughable.</blockquote>The fact that you can take one portion, of my post and say the "whole basis for your post is, well... laughable" is quite entertaining. You by your own statements and own complaints say that the problem is summoner mage pet aggro generation. You specifically say that it is not soulburn, not EB, but the threat generation of the mage pet under normal circumstances, just casting it's base spells. USING basic common sense....or logic, if there was truly a problem with mage pet TPS, then it would be a problem that could be seen at all tiers, not just at cap. The problem is only seen at cap because it is an issue with TANK TPS, not pet TPS. If you don't like the portion of my response that you highlighted in blue, then fine...take it out. In fact, let me do it for you, because that was just an example anyway and not my point. Here, let me reiterate my actual point, which if you think about it and take a moment to understand the game as a whole, you might understand better....One thing that you must realize is TANKS TPS is lower than it should be. This thread should really be about buffing the aggro generation abilities of tanks. Without aggro transfers or + hate buffs, Tanks have a heck of a time keeping aggro off of all dps classes, especially since DPS for scouts/mages is increasing significantly faster than hate generation is improving for tanks. If you send the pet in too soon, before the tank is in position, or if the tank is stunned on pull, then you as a dps class will have aggro and either die or tank the mob. IF however, you are patient, do not pull the mob, do not engage the mob before the tank does on a body pull, and allow the tank to get in position, then the tank is more likely to maintain aggro.I am not coming to you as someone who's highest toon is level 57, do not mistake me. I am coming from the point of view of someone who has 5 90s, one of which often tanks instances and is a raid OT. I used the example of the 57 as a point of reference, in fact to say that it's not a pet aggro issue at all. Try to focus and understand what people are saying.

Xalmat

07-27-2011, 03:50 PM

The fact that my pet often has uncontrollable aggro issues is very attractive to me. Otherwise I wouldn't have been playing my Conjuror since 2004.

gatrm

07-27-2011, 04:08 PM

<cite>Banditman wrote:</cite><blockquote>No it isn't. There are multiple issues there which have been brought up time and again.It's a shared stats issue that our hate modifiers don't transfer. Thus any Adorns we put on, or any AA's we take (and we have some!) which modify our hate do not pass on to our pets. There are actually numerous things we get that don't pass to our pets, additionally noteable is that our RESISTS don't get passed to our pets, making them significantly more squishy in AE's than we are.It's a mechanics issue since . . . well, forever . . . that things like Peaceful Link and Synergism don't affect pets. The description even says so!Finally, you *can* debuff pet hate! There are AA's for that, and those AA's *do* work.</blockquote>This I can agree with, dehate buffs from other classes should affect pets.<cite>Trenshero@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>And while we're talking about stuff they need to fix, they either need to take away the Mage pet's melee auto attack, or give it a ranged auto attack like other mages when we get that update.Tired of my pet suiciding on bosses just because my call servant was down for another 1.3 seconds when the boss turned to riposte.</blockquote>Uh. Are you not aware that you can tell your pet to attack at range? you don't have to send him in and let him die to a riposte. Just set him to attack at range and he'll hang out with you. It's easy to do with profit, but if you use default UI, you might need to look up the command. it will be something to the effect of /pet attack 2 (I think 0 pulls back, 1 is melee and 2 is ranged, but I'm not sure on that. I just use the button on the profit window that forces ranged attack only).

drakkenshie

07-27-2011, 05:06 PM

<cite>Nrgy wrote:</cite><blockquote>See... Banditman gets it ... better than me actually. I'm not sure why the rest of 'You' do not.[ snip ]Threat is threat and perfectly fine as it is... If a summoner cannot deal with the issue of threat themselves, then ask the devs to enhance something that was actually excluded specifically, but none of it beyond the fighter TPS is actually broken.</blockquote>We don't get it, because you are wrong.Summoner pets generate more hate per DPS than other DPS units, sometimes in extremes.The pet de-aggro does not work.The de-hate AAs are only available if you have >250 AA, still dont' solve the issue, and aren't options for every valid build.They need to fix the issue, make our pet deaggro work better, and make hate reduction work on our pet, period, end of story.

Nrgy

07-28-2011, 12:14 PM

<cite>drakkenshield wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Nrgy wrote:</cite><blockquote>See... Banditman gets it ... better than me actually. I'm not sure why the rest of 'You' do not.[ snip ]Threat is threat and perfectly fine as it is... If a summoner cannot deal with the issue of threat themselves, then ask the devs to enhance something that was actually excluded specifically, but none of it beyond the fighter TPS is actually broken.</blockquote>We don't get it, because you are wrong.Summoner pets generate more hate per DPS than other DPS units, sometimes in extremes.The pet de-aggro does not work.The de-hate AAs are only available if you have >250 AA, still dont' solve the issue, and aren't options for every valid build.They need to fix the issue, make our pet deaggro work better, and make hate reduction work on our pet, period, end of story.</blockquote>This is untrue and as much as I'd like it to be different it simply is not. Maybe in the AA revamp Pet hate will get some love, but I doubt it will be due to TPS generation through DPS. It would be nice if the hate modifier was a shared stat or that player buffs modified a pets hate. Hopefully in the future these mechanics can be added to summoners and thier pets. It will be intresting to see how the Beastlords deal with hate through thier warders as well.[Summoner pets generate more hate per DPS than other DPS units, sometimes in extremes.]All DPS generates the same TPS regardless if it is a Pet or Player. Players have the advantage to apply de-hate to themselves, as well, as, recieve more of it from other player buffs. Pet recieve none of these advantages. I would like it to be different but it isn't.[The pet de-aggro does not work.]That is becasue there is no Pet de-aggo out side of AA's. No shared hate with the summoner. No benifit from adornments or player buffs. It is not broken becasue it never existed. I'd like it to be different but its not.The AA from the Heroic tab line3 does require 250 to be spent before using it and 260 to have it max'ed out. The Summoners tab 'Magic Leash' is a joke at the level in which it reduces threat still being pre-DOV level and thus made worthless when shared stats were added due to the boost in DPS.Tank TPS is the real issue when it comes to pets or any other source of DPS-TPS. Tank TPS has remained at pre-DOV levels and those threat values applied from CA's and Buffs need to scale or be increased to a post-DOV level. The only added TPS which tanks recieved from DOV is through the added DPS this they can now do through melee & CA's. This is going to be far more apparent when the next GU or Expansion comes out and caster DPS gets another bump.

Liandra

07-28-2011, 12:58 PM

GU 61 notes for the test server are up (reposted on eq2wire <a href="http://eq2wire.com/2011/07/28/game-update-61-test-update-notes/" target="_blank">here</a>) and there are a number of summoner aa changes there that should help the pet agro situation for both conjies and necros.<ul><li>Magic Leash is now in the Animist line and no longer requires a mage pet. If the pet is a fighter, it will taunt the entire encounter. If the pet is not a fighter, it will detaunt the encounter. The fighter pet has a chance to improve its hate position as well.</li><li>Animist’s Bond is now Animist’s Evasion and reduces the caster’s threat position by 24. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/385970365b8ed7503b4294502a458efa.gif" border="0" /> The reuse is 3 minutes.</li><li>Minion’s Barrier is now Minion’s Attention and grants a proc that has a chance to increase threat position if the pet is a fighter and reduce threat position if the pet is a priest, scout or a mage.</li><li>Minion’s Uproar has been replaced by Symbiosis. If the pet is a fighter, the summoner transfers some of their threat to the fighter. If the pet is a mage, priest or scout, the pet transfers some of their threat to the summoner.</li></ul>I will be heading to testcopy later on with my conjy to check these out, but they do look promising. I guess the devs were listening to our complaints about pet agro after all.

Banditman

07-28-2011, 03:28 PM

Except for the fact that every summoner pet just lost 10% SDA.This is a significant nerf.But have no fear!Now all that threat your pet is no longer generating can be transferred to the summoner!

Nrgy

07-29-2011, 12:55 PM

<cite>Banditman wrote:</cite><blockquote>Except for the fact that every summoner pet just lost 10% SDA.This is a significant nerf.But have no fear!Now all that threat your pet is no longer generating can be transferred to the summoner!</blockquote>Thank goodness this idiotic thread will finally die when GU61 goes live! The next thread which will take its place will be titled: “Pet Nerf lowers Summoner DPS back to pre-SF tier 2 levels” OR “Beastlords are taking all the Summoner raid spots”. Pet TPS fix = Pet DPS nerfs, just like I posted back on page 1. So everyone complaining about Pet TPS should at least be happy with GU61. Those summoners which were able to overcome pet TPS will still be able to overcome the lack of pet DPS through these Nerfs. I seriously doubt those summoners who could not get past the pet TPS issues will be able to get past the upcoming pet DPS issues.Welcome to Tier 2 DPS, enjoy your stay.

Xalmat

07-29-2011, 01:00 PM

The funny part is, the hate transfer AAs will go completely unused by end-game summoners.

Banditman

07-29-2011, 01:24 PM

What I find amusingly tragic is that instead of doing something simple like allowing existing hate / threat mechanics to affect our pet, they introduced a radical AA revamp that tries to simulate it.I can't figure out if I should laugh or cry.

Wasuna

08-01-2011, 10:59 AM

Pretty simple actually...If you find yourself in groups with a Tank that Knows what they are doing (meaning dirge, coercer and hate transfer) then there really is no issue, you just don't take those AA's.If your with a tank that is stupid and doesn't know how to play their class (meaning no dirge, coercer or hate transfer) then take the AA's.

Banditman

08-01-2011, 12:23 PM

I think you missed the part where they nerfed Summoner DPS . . . thus my comment that we no longer need the hate reduction AA's.

theriatis

08-02-2011, 05:24 AM

<cite>Liandra wrote:</cite><blockquote>Animist’s Bond is now Animist’s Evasion and reduces the caster’s threat position by 24. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/385970365b8ed7503b4294502a458efa.gif" border="0" /> The reuse is 3 minutes.</blockquote>Yeah well, you know, in older times we had to raid Trakanon to get the rare and only one item in the whole game which could do such a thing, reducing your threat by 24 positions.So Trakanons Gaze is no longer needed for Conjurers, because they just have the AA now.Right. What the hell are you smoking ?Regards, theriatis.

Luhai

08-03-2011, 05:49 AM

What the heck does an items from 3 expansions ago that noone cares about have to do with this thread, especially since every mage now gets "Bewilderment"?Please stop derailing the summoner threads when you even admit to have no clue about this subclass.

Nrgy

08-03-2011, 12:25 PM

<span style="line-height: 115%; font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; font-size: 11pt; mso-ascii-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-fareast-font-family: Calibri; mso-fareast-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-hansi-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-bidi-font-family: 'Times New Roman'; mso-bidi-theme-font: minor-bidi; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-fareast-language: EN-US; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA;">PLEASE … let this thread die before the ‘Threat Babies’ get even more of the Summoner DPS taken away.

Loranthala

08-03-2011, 01:29 PM

I just love when the vocal few ruin things for everyone else. Riposte on scout gear, anyone? This feels just like that.

Wasuna

08-03-2011, 01:48 PM

Pet hate is broken. It's a fact. Just becasue you run with a tank, coercer, dirge and hate transfer doesn't mean it's isn't broken. I just means you overpowered it.Summoner DPS is to easy this expansion. Scrub PQ/quest gear summoners are putting up huge numbers which is what exposed the pet hate problem.If you don't like how this is being addressed then maybe you shouldn't have put your head in the sand and ignored it and offered suggestions that were more palatable for you.

Nrgy

08-03-2011, 02:24 PM

<cite>Wasuna wrote:</cite><blockquote>Pet hate is broken. It's a fact. Just becasue you run with a tank, coercer, dirge and hate transfer doesn't mean it's isn't broken. I just means you overpowered it.Summoner DPS is to easy this expansion. Scrub PQ/quest gear summoners are putting up huge numbers which is what exposed the pet hate problem.If you don't like how this is being addressed then maybe you shouldn't have put your head in the sand and ignored it and offered suggestions that were more palatable for you.</blockquote>The hard part is responding to peoples posts without getting Mod-002 in here cleaning up the language, which I'd be fine with if they would also clean up the lies people continually post.Pet Threat is not broken !!! Pet threat is generated the same as any player and its based in DPS. Players have Hate Modifiers .. Pets do not have hate modifiers, nor do they share the summoners hate mods through shared stats, nor do player buffs/debuffs apply to pets. There is nothing BROKEN here. it never was this way and up until GU61 is released it never will be.After GU61 is released Pets will be able to use 20 to 30 AA's, which use to be spent on DPS, to get threat management abilities which they will no longer need becasue of the DPS nerf through the removal of SDA and other similar DPS abilities.Pre-GU61 .... Summoners along with their Pets are fine with both DPS and threat generation IF a player know the class(es)Post-GU61 ... Summoners along with their Pets will have all the Threat tools in the world and will need exactly NONE of them due to the DPS nerf.Its a simple case of L2P ... do it and its fine .. don't and /cry for a Nerf.

Banditman

08-03-2011, 02:42 PM

<cite>Wasuna wrote:</cite><blockquote>Pet hate is broken. It's a fact. Just becasue you run with a tank, coercer, dirge and hate transfer doesn't mean it's isn't broken. I just means you overpowered it.Summoner DPS is to easy this expansion. Scrub PQ/quest gear summoners are putting up huge numbers which is what exposed the pet hate problem.If you don't like how this is being addressed then maybe you shouldn't have put your head in the sand and ignored it and offered suggestions that were more palatable for you.</blockquote>It's not a fact in my book. It's speculation, since the tanks I play with manage to hold aggro just fine over my pet without overkill in the hate department. Maybe the tanks I play with are just that good . . .I got news for you, in any sort of challenging content, it is just as hard for a Summoner to DPS as it is for any other mage. If you view all DPS as faceroll easy, then yea, it's easy to DPS as a Summoner.I'll tell you this, there is no other DPS class in the game that can just flat out lose 50 - 70% of their DPS to an AE. "AE? Oh, it's cool, you lived through it, but your pet? Sorry, it's dead. Your DPS with it." We deal with it.Oh, and I did offer plenty of suggestions on how to fix it, but in typical SOE fashion, they appear to have gone completely un-noticed.

Loranthala

08-03-2011, 03:10 PM

DotuMing

08-04-2011, 03:15 AM

<cite>Nrgy wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Wasuna wrote:</cite><blockquote>Pet hate is broken. It's a fact. Just becasue you run with a tank, coercer, dirge and hate transfer doesn't mean it's isn't broken. I just means you overpowered it.Summoner DPS is to easy this expansion. Scrub PQ/quest gear summoners are putting up huge numbers which is what exposed the pet hate problem.If you don't like how this is being addressed then maybe you shouldn't have put your head in the sand and ignored it and offered suggestions that were more palatable for you.</blockquote>The hard part is responding to peoples posts without getting Mod-002 in here cleaning up the language, which I'd be fine with if they would also clean up the lies people continually post.Pet Threat is not broken !!! Pet threat is generated the same as any player and its based in DPS. Players have Hate Modifiers .. Pets do not have hate modifiers, nor do they share the summoners hate mods through shared stats, nor do player buffs/debuffs apply to pets. There is nothing BROKEN here. it never was this way and up until GU61 is released it never will be.After GU61 is released Pets will be able to use 20 to 30 AA's, which use to be spent on DPS, to get threat management abilities which they will no longer need becasue of the DPS nerf through the removal of SDA and other similar DPS abilities.Pre-GU61 .... Summoners along with their Pets are fine with both DPS and threat generation IF a player know the class(es)Post-GU61 ... Summoners along with their Pets will have all the Threat tools in the world and will need exactly NONE of them due to the DPS nerf.Its a simple case of L2P ... do it and its fine .. don't and /cry for a Nerf.</blockquote>Your not even a Conj. Your a Necro... Unless your profile is wrong.Tell you what. Get a Conjie, get most of your Hard mode gear, all your hard mode jewellry and then come back here and tell me there is not an inherent problem with hate. I dont know why you are being this thickheaded about the issue.Your telling me its ok that another class can do twice our dps, have hate modifiers being applied to them to not draw aggro and yet our pet draws aggro if we dont stop doing dps and thats ok??? Are you kidding me?? Tell you what..post some of those outstanding dps parses and Ill tell you why you dont draw hate. Oh yes...L2P ring a bell??? Try keeping up with other dps classes without pulling aggro and its not a matter of not being able to due to lack of dps its because of TOO MUCH HATE THAT CANT BE TAKEN AWAY.All we are asking for was some threat management being applied to our pets for christs sake. Its like being in a ferrari and only being able to go 20 in a 100 zone.

Nrgy

08-04-2011, 11:23 AM

<cite>DotuMing wrote:</cite><blockquote>Your not even a Conj. Your a Necro... Unless your profile is wrong.Tell you what. Get a Conjie, get most of your Hard mode gear, all your hard mode jewellry and then come back here and tell me there is not an inherent problem with hate. I dont know why you are being this thickheaded about the issue.Your telling me its ok that another class can do twice our dps, have hate modifiers being applied to them to not draw aggro and yet our pet draws aggro if we dont stop doing dps and thats ok??? Are you kidding me?? Tell you what..post some of those outstanding dps parses and Ill tell you why you dont draw hate. Oh yes...L2P ring a bell??? Try keeping up with other dps classes without pulling aggro and its not a matter of not being able to due to lack of dps its because of TOO MUCH HATE THAT CANT BE TAKEN AWAY.All we are asking for was some threat management being applied to our pets for christs sake. Its like being in a ferrari and only being able to go 20 in a 100 zone.</blockquote>I am a Necro ... and a Summoner ... and the Conjy's that fail to be able to play their class by managing their pets hate are screaming for a nerf to summoner pets not a 'fix' to Conjy pets. No Thank You. There are plenty of REAL conjy's in this thred supporting the fact that they have over-come DPS verses TPS issues. If I were a Conjy I would take some of their advice as they are some of the most knowledgeable players in the game. Some of which have been playing Conjy's since launch again without issue.All this thread is asking for is a TPS correction and all they got, as of GU61, is a DPS nerf. They also are getting TPS management, but will no longer need it due to the DPS nerf. Congratulation. This thread has supported SOE's nerfing of not only the class which some of you can not play, but the class arch-type of the class which some of you can not play. It would be better for those of us who can play these classes if those of you who can not play these classes just re-rolled.SOE only need to allow Hate to be a shared stat or allow buffs to apply to pets. Instead they lower DPS by a large margin AND replace AA abilities with unneeded management tools. I do not care how much SLR gear someone has if they can't manage to play the class effectively as it was intended. You should all be happy with yourselves, but IMO some of you still don't know how to play a pet class and more accurately shouldn't.

Wasuna

08-04-2011, 12:11 PM

I only asked for conjour mage pets to be looked at. I have actually tanked for some of the necros in this thread and not a single one of them has pulled agro off me outside of me swapping to an add. And this is usually with only Assassin hate transfer and no coercer or dirge.When you stick your head in the sand and claim nothing is wrong this is what you get. SoE actually does listen to people to a decent extent. They get a ton of ideas form these forums and do try to keep people happy when they can. If we hadn't been arguring about this being a problem or not and had provided some ways to fix the problem SoE might have listened.I personally would have LOVED to see hate reduction buffs get 50% performance on Summoners and that stat transferening to the pet. That would have solved the problem and also kept the deagro management a real issue like it is for other dps classes. Other big time DPS classes have to be put in groups that reduce their Agro so they can perform and the Summoners had to be kept in that mechanic so the 50% performance would have been perfect.If you needed more than that maybe an AA for Summoners that allows that 50% to be increase to 70% or soemthing with 5-10 AA's.Oh yeah... and summoner pets shouldn't be killed by AoE's!

Loranthala

08-04-2011, 01:54 PM

<cite>DotuMing wrote:</cite><blockquote>Try keeping up with other dps classes without pulling aggro and its not a matter of not being able to due to lack of dps its because of TOO MUCH HATE THAT CANT BE TAKEN AWAY.</blockquote>Try playing a brig. Without hate transfer of some sort (link, amends, troub) a brig can pull hate doing half the dps of some other classes. So again, its not a TPS problem, its an issue with dehates not working on pets. All they had to do was fix that and problem would have been solved.

Wasuna

08-04-2011, 02:07 PM

It is a TPS problem. Heals generate hate. Debuffs generate hate. DPS generates hate and taunts generate hate. Brigands just happen to do a ton of big debuffs and also do a ton of DPS. The TPS you see on ACT is not all the Hate that is generated.I agree that hate debuffs should work on pets but it would have to be modified a bit so summoners would not be free of all agro concerns.

Loranthala

08-04-2011, 02:14 PM

Its not a TPS problem, because the pet is generating exactly the TPS it should. Its not over-threating, its doing exactly what it should. The reason it pulls agro is because the dehates don't work like they would on any other player character.

Wasuna

08-04-2011, 02:23 PM

I think we are just looking at this from different sides. I'm saying it is TPS becasue Threat from pets is to high. Your saying it's not becasue the debuffs don't work on the pets to reduce their Threat.Same thing. Pets get agro.Again, I'd love to see a dehate spell work at a reduced percentage on the summoner and transfer to the pet. That would be perfect and would keep people from having to buff the summoner and pet using an additional concentration. This would also keep the summoners in the agro reduction game and keep them 'honest' I'll say.

Nrgy

08-04-2011, 02:24 PM

<cite>Simonx@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote>Its not a TPS problem, because the pet is generating exactly the TPS it should. Its not over-threating, its doing exactly what it should. The reason it pulls agro is because the dehates don't work like they would on any other player character.</blockquote>^^ This is TRUE ^^The answer should have been to share hate mods with the summoners and thier pet... Not rewrite half of the entire summoner tab to switch the place of DPS and TPS. It's rediculous and is causing more work for SOE with more chances to make huge blunders which seems to be the SOP around here.

Nrgy

08-04-2011, 02:48 PM

<cite></cite><cite>Wasuna wrote:</cite><blockquote>It is a TPS problem. Heals generate hate. Debuffs generate hate. DPS generates hate and taunts generate hate. Brigands just happen to do a ton of big debuffs and also do a ton of DPS. The TPS you see on ACT is not all the Hate that is generated.</blockquote> We ALL agree there is a TPS issue, but the issue is NOT with summoner pets. The issue is with Tank TPS. We all agree that tank TPS needs to be inflated NOW just like all the DPS sources were with the release of DOV through gear upgrades and AA expansion. TPS has remained static for the last two expansions while DPS has increased exponentially and that is just plain ignorant on SOE's part.<cite>Wasuna wrote:</cite><blockquote>When you stick your head in the sand and claim nothing is wrong this is what you get. SoE actually does listen to people to a decent extent. They get a ton of ideas form these forums and do try to keep people happy when they can. If we hadn't been arguring about this being a problem or not and had provided some ways to fix the problem SoE might have listened.</blockquote>IF SOE did read the forums and wanted to keep people happy then they would have read the multiple posts in the fighters forums complaining about low threat that have been resurfacing every couple of weeks since DOV launch. What ever changes are being made here are becasue SOE wants the summoners brought down a notch or two as they are too close to the Wizzy and Assassin parses now.If SOE did read the forums they would have stumbled on this single thread since DOV release where less than a handful of summoners felt the game mechanics were broken becasue that is the ONLY possible reason why they were failing at playing a class. Had SOE bothered to read more then the first post or two they would have read that poor tanks via poor TPS abilities were more than likely the root cause. In some practical ways the truth leans towards summoners that are now gearing up are finding that they are doing much more DPS then SOE intended and that they cannot compensate for it due to lack of skill. SOE is using this poor excuse to get IT out and swing IT. IT being the Nerf bat. "Thank You, Sir! May I have another?" This is NOT a case where something is better than nothing, especially when doing nothing is better for summoners and doing something is better for nobody.The sad part is there are actually summoners who are falling over themselves to stand in line to drink the kool-aid.

DotuMing

08-04-2011, 05:17 PM

<cite>Nrgy wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>DotuMing wrote:</cite><blockquote>Your not even a Conj. Your a Necro... Unless your profile is wrong.Tell you what. Get a Conjie, get most of your Hard mode gear, all your hard mode jewellry and then come back here and tell me there is not an inherent problem with hate. I dont know why you are being this thickheaded about the issue.Your telling me its ok that another class can do twice our dps, have hate modifiers being applied to them to not draw aggro and yet our pet draws aggro if we dont stop doing dps and thats ok??? Are you kidding me?? Tell you what..post some of those outstanding dps parses and Ill tell you why you dont draw hate. Oh yes...L2P ring a bell??? Try keeping up with other dps classes without pulling aggro and its not a matter of not being able to due to lack of dps its because of TOO MUCH HATE THAT CANT BE TAKEN AWAY.All we are asking for was some threat management being applied to our pets for christs sake. Its like being in a ferrari and only being able to go 20 in a 100 zone.</blockquote>I am a Necro ... and a Summoner ... and the Conjy's that fail to be able to play their class by managing their pets hate are screaming for a nerf to summoner pets not a 'fix' to Conjy pets. No Thank You. There are plenty of REAL conjy's in this thred supporting the fact that they have over-come DPS verses TPS issues. If I were a Conjy I would take some of their advice as they are some of the most knowledgeable players in the game. Some of which have been playing Conjy's since launch again without issue.All this thread is asking for is a TPS correction and all they got, as of GU61, is a DPS nerf. They also are getting TPS management, but will no longer need it due to the DPS nerf. Congratulation. This thread has supported SOE's nerfing of not only the class which some of you can not play, but the class arch-type of the class which some of you can not play. It would be better for those of us who can play these classes if those of you who can not play these classes just re-rolled.SOE only need to allow Hate to be a shared stat or allow buffs to apply to pets. Instead they lower DPS by a large margin AND replace AA abilities with unneeded management tools. I do not care how much SLR gear someone has if they can't manage to play the class effectively as it was intended. You should all be happy with yourselves, but IMO some of you still don't know how to play a pet class and more accurately shouldn't. </blockquote>Just lol at this..I have been playing eq since beta of eq1. I have been playing a conj since launch. I know my class pretty well thank you very much. Im in a top 5 WW raiding guild. I know the mechanics of the game pretty intimately. Where do you get off telling conjies that our pets are fine? You dont even play one. I could care less about necros. Your pet is fine? Hey great. Now quit telling me at the top end of dps that our conjie pets are fine. They arent.If your telling me that having to sit in a raid and having to stop DPS while the pet aggro cools off for a minute or just killing off the pet and resummoning is what we have to do, then I say you need your head examined. As it stands right now, I cant go into PUGS, I Cant do zones with lower geared friends because my PET ALONE will grab aggro with NO casting from me. The only class that can hold aggro off the pet is a Pally with amends directly on the pet. Of course that solution is great if a pally is the MT, but if he isnt, well get ready for some downtime because your going to have a lot of it. Seriously get some better gear, get your dps up on a CONJ, and then come here and say with a straight face that there is no problem. Noone was crying for a DPS nerf. If you read my bloody posts, we are asking that some type of threat management be allowed on our pets. Be it peaceful link, de aggro adornments..Something. In short you dont play a conjie and you have no clue about the conjie pets. Please stop commenting on Conjie pets.

Nrgy

08-04-2011, 05:47 PM

<cite>DotuMing wrote:</cite><blockquote>Just lol at this..I have been playing eq since beta of eq1. I have been playing a conj since launch. I know my class pretty well thank you very much. Im in a top 5 WW raiding guild. I know the mechanics of the game pretty intimately. Where do you get off telling conjies that our pets are fine? You dont even play one. I could care less about necros. Your pet is fine? Hey great. Now quit telling me at the top end of dps that our conjie pets are fine. They arent.If your telling me that having to sit in a raid and having to stop DPS while the pet aggro cools off for a minute or just killing off the pet and resummoning is what we have to do, then I say you need your head examined. As it stands right now, I cant go into PUGS, I Cant do zones with lower geared friends because my PET ALONE will grab aggro with NO casting from me. The only class that can hold aggro off the pet is a Pally with amends directly on the pet. Of course that solution is great if a pally is the MT, but if he isnt, well get ready for some downtime because your going to have a lot of it. Seriously get some better gear, get your dps up on a CONJ, and then come here and say with a straight face that there is no problem. Noone was crying for a DPS nerf. If you read my bloody posts, we are asking that some type of threat management be allowed on our pets. Be it peaceful link, de aggro adornments..Something. In short you dont play a conjie and you have no clue about the conjie pets. Please stop commenting on Conjie pets.</blockquote>Having been with the EQ title for 10 or 11 years I would think a better understanding of the game mechanics would have been acquired. Conjy pets pull aggro .... Yes we all know that. Pet Threat is broken (as this post so desperately is trying to claim) is untrue and taking that position shows the lack of knowledge of the game mechanics some players have.SOE turned off specific hate mods from applying to pets for a reason. Everyone seemed 'OK' with this up until last week. As you said a Pallys Amends is the only way your pet can be used without 'sitting out' 1/2 the fight. It would be my guess that SOE doesn't even realize Amends works on pets and if they did they would turn it OFF. I'm in favor of turning off Amends on Pets, why bother letting Pally buffs effect pets and not the chanters or bards. This is beacuse SOE WANTED it this way. They could have just as easily made link apply to pets among other player hate debuffs. They could have easily made hate mod a shared stat. There is nothing broken as that is how SOE wanted it at that time. the Amends trick is an exploit imo and clearly not working as intended, like all the other hate mod debuffs.When DOV released this wasn't as much of an issue, but now summoners are geared up in HM raid gear and the DPS has increased exponetially. So what does SOE decide to do? Turn on the hate mods shared by the summoners? Allow hate mod buffs to apply from other group members? Nope, they 'Re-Vamp' the class and 'give' the summoners tools. By Re-Vamping the class they remove several DPS tools and over-write them with TPS management tools. Effectively applying a DPS NERF. So, what do the players think of that? Well, appearantly veterans, whom have been around for over a decade, say Thanks You.G/J <edited for content>

DotuMing

08-04-2011, 06:30 PM

<cite>Nrgy wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>DotuMing wrote:</cite><blockquote>Just lol at this..I have been playing eq since beta of eq1. I have been playing a conj since launch. I know my class pretty well thank you very much. Im in a top 5 WW raiding guild. I know the mechanics of the game pretty intimately. Where do you get off telling conjies that our pets are fine? You dont even play one. I could care less about necros. Your pet is fine? Hey great. Now quit telling me at the top end of dps that our conjie pets are fine. They arent.If your telling me that having to sit in a raid and having to stop DPS while the pet aggro cools off for a minute or just killing off the pet and resummoning is what we have to do, then I say you need your head examined. As it stands right now, I cant go into PUGS, I Cant do zones with lower geared friends because my PET ALONE will grab aggro with NO casting from me. The only class that can hold aggro off the pet is a Pally with amends directly on the pet. Of course that solution is great if a pally is the MT, but if he isnt, well get ready for some downtime because your going to have a lot of it. Seriously get some better gear, get your dps up on a CONJ, and then come here and say with a straight face that there is no problem. Noone was crying for a DPS nerf. If you read my bloody posts, we are asking that some type of threat management be allowed on our pets. Be it peaceful link, de aggro adornments..Something. In short you dont play a conjie and you have no clue about the conjie pets. Please stop commenting on Conjie pets.</blockquote>Having been with the EQ title for 10 or 11 years I would think a better understanding of the game mechanics would have been acquired. Conjy pets pull aggro .... Yes we all know that. Pet Threat is broken (as this post so desperately is trying to claim) is untrue and taking that position shows the lack of knowledge of the game mechanics some players have.SOE turned off specific hate mods from applying to pets for a reason. Everyone seemed 'OK' with this up until last week. As you said a Pallys Amends is the only way your pet can be used without 'sitting out' 1/2 the fight. It would be my guess that SOE doesn't even realize Amends works on pets and if they did they would turn it OFF. I'm in favor of turning off Amends on Pets, why bother letting Pally buffs effect pets and not the chanters or bards. This is beacuse SOE WANTED it this way. They could have just as easily made link apply to pets among other player hate debuffs. They could have easily made hate mod a shared stat. There is nothing broken as that is how SOE wanted it at that time. the Amends trick is an exploit imo and clearly not working as intended, like all the other hate mod debuffs.When DOV released this wasn't as much of an issue, but now summoners are geared up in HM raid gear and the DPS has increased exponetially. So what does SOE decide to do? Turn on the hate mods shared by the summoners? Allow hate mod buffs to apply from other group members? Nope, they 'Re-Vamp' the class and 'give' the summoners tools. By Re-Vamping the class they remove several DPS tools and over-write them with TPS management tools. Effectively applying a DPS NERF. So, what do the players think of that? Well, appearantly veterans, whom have been around for over a decade, say Thanks You.G/J</blockquote>And im quite sure with your vast playing experience with eq2 in a raiding guild, you know everything about everything. Including what SOE has intended, wants to do with a certain class, and what they are/not aware of and what the do and do not consider an exploit. Oh wait a sec...you just joined in November of last year and your not in a raiding guild? Well I am certain you must have got some of the vast knowledge of what raiding guild conjies have to go through when they raid somewhere right? I mean you speak of it like it is firsthand knowledge!! I mean noone has sent in bug reports or spoken with Devs about this issue before right? Tell you what. Stick to what you know. Dont talk about things you dont. Its pretty simple.And let me be crystal clear here. There was absolutely no need for a nerf. None. Nada. Zip. Zero. The only thing I have ever asked for was an additional way to reduce pet hate through adornments or through tools already available to everyone else in the raid.

drakkenshie

08-04-2011, 10:28 PM

<cite>Nrgy wrote:</cite><blockquote>By Re-Vamping the class they remove several DPS tools and over-write them with TPS management tools. Effectively applying a DPS NERF. So, what do the players think of that? Well, appearantly veterans, whom have been around for over a decade, say Thanks You.G/J</blockquote>No we don't... <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />I did not want or need a DPS nerf.I wanted the pet deaggro to work, and maybe some shared deaggro if they could make it work properly.I also wanted an obvious bug fixed where my pet pulls aggro even when it is *NOT* doing much DPS. This isn't real often, but it does happen and it seems related to how the pet will pull more aggro via DPS than other classes. Then again, it may just be an odd bug not related.Either way, no we didn't need or want a DPS nerf.

Nrgy

08-05-2011, 01:02 PM

When SOE reads people crying about summoner pet TPS what the HEAR is DPS is too high. They know that 1 DPS = 1 TPS and knowing that the only way to correct pet TPS in SOE's eyes is to lower DPS. Ding..Ding..Ding ... Winner!SOE knows all the summoners want a 'Re-Vamp' and this is the perfect oppertnity for them to correct the blunder they made with shared stas and inflated gear causing more DPS then ever before. Refusing to follow any manifesto becasue they say 'the class order of any manifesto changes from month to month' simply means that classes will float up and down the DPS list. With GU61 summoners are simply going to fall a few nothces. But at least they won't loose pets due to poor threat mechanic which remain unfixed.We all hoped that a re-vamp would include "Doing away with unused and unusefull AA's". I'd venture that the removal of pet specific AA's will be a welcomed update. However, there are still dozens of unused and unusefull AA's which have not yet been slotted for changing or updating and most likely never will.Why they would say they want to re-vamp bad AA's and turn around and trash AA's which nearly every single summoners uses is beyond me. Time will tell how it all works out, but it looks like the summoners will be in for a long and bumpy road ahead.

Banditman

08-09-2011, 11:45 AM

I don't lose pets due to threat mechanics. Never have. I lose pets because of AE's.Plz fix.

Trensharo

08-12-2011, 06:03 AM

<cite>DotuMing wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Nrgy wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>DotuMing wrote:</cite><blockquote>Just lol at this..I have been playing eq since beta of eq1. I have been playing a conj since launch. I know my class pretty well thank you very much. Im in a top 5 WW raiding guild. I know the mechanics of the game pretty intimately. Where do you get off telling conjies that our pets are fine? You dont even play one. I could care less about necros. Your pet is fine? Hey great. Now quit telling me at the top end of dps that our conjie pets are fine. They arent. If your telling me that having to sit in a raid and having to stop DPS while the pet aggro cools off for a minute or just killing off the pet and resummoning is what we have to do, then I say you need your head examined. As it stands right now, I cant go into PUGS, I Cant do zones with lower geared friends because my PET ALONE will grab aggro with NO casting from me. The only class that can hold aggro off the pet is a Pally with amends directly on the pet. Of course that solution is great if a pally is the MT, but if he isnt, well get ready for some downtime because your going to have a lot of it. Seriously get some better gear, get your dps up on a CONJ, and then come here and say with a straight face that there is no problem. Noone was crying for a DPS nerf. If you read my bloody posts, we are asking that some type of threat management be allowed on our pets. Be it peaceful link, de aggro adornments..Something. In short you dont play a conjie and you have no clue about the conjie pets. Please stop commenting on Conjie pets.</blockquote>Having been with the EQ title for 10 or 11 years I would think a better understanding of the game mechanics would have been acquired. Conjy pets pull aggro .... Yes we all know that. Pet Threat is broken (as this post so desperately is trying to claim) is untrue and taking that position shows the lack of knowledge of the game mechanics some players have.SOE turned off specific hate mods from applying to pets for a reason. Everyone seemed 'OK' with this up until last week. As you said a Pallys Amends is the only way your pet can be used without 'sitting out' 1/2 the fight. It would be my guess that SOE doesn't even realize Amends works on pets and if they did they would turn it OFF. I'm in favor of turning off Amends on Pets, why bother letting Pally buffs effect pets and not the chanters or bards. This is beacuse SOE WANTED it this way. They could have just as easily made link apply to pets among other player hate debuffs. They could have easily made hate mod a shared stat. There is nothing broken as that is how SOE wanted it at that time. the Amends trick is an exploit imo and clearly not working as intended, like all the other hate mod debuffs.When DOV released this wasn't as much of an issue, but now summoners are geared up in HM raid gear and the DPS has increased exponetially. So what does SOE decide to do? Turn on the hate mods shared by the summoners? Allow hate mod buffs to apply from other group members? Nope, they 'Re-Vamp' the class and 'give' the summoners tools. By Re-Vamping the class they remove several DPS tools and over-write them with TPS management tools. Effectively applying a DPS NERF. So, what do the players think of that? Well, appearantly veterans, whom have been around for over a decade, say Thanks You.G/J</blockquote>And im quite sure with your vast playing experience with eq2 in a raiding guild, you know everything about everything. Including what SOE has intended, wants to do with a certain class, and what they are/not aware of and what the do and do not consider an exploit. Oh wait a sec...you just joined in November of last year and your not in a raiding guild? Well I am certain you must have got some of the vast knowledge of what raiding guild conjies have to go through when they raid somewhere right? I mean you speak of it like it is firsthand knowledge!! I mean noone has sent in bug reports or spoken with Devs about this issue before right? Tell you what. Stick to what you know. Dont talk about things you dont. Its pretty simple.And let me be crystal clear here. There was absolutely no need for a nerf. None. Nada. Zip. Zero. The only thing I have ever asked for was an additional way to reduce pet hate through adornments or through tools already available to everyone else in the raid.</blockquote>QFE.

Trensharo

08-12-2011, 06:08 AM

<cite>Banditman wrote:</cite><blockquote>I don't lose pets due to threat mechanics. Never have. I lose pets because of AE's.Plz fix.</blockquote>Glad to see you're the only summoner in the game and you speak for everyone.Enjoy your bubble.(Sarcasm intended)So many people in denial about this. If only you guys had offered suggestions instead of fillibustering and arguing about mechanics no one can prove whilst stating you know for a fact what this or that is (not you specifically, that other edeot).

Banditman

08-12-2011, 09:44 AM

<cite>Trenshero@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Banditman wrote:</cite><blockquote>I don't lose pets due to threat mechanics. Never have. I lose pets because of AE's.Plz fix.</blockquote>Glad to see you're the only summoner in the game and you speak for everyone.Enjoy your bubble.(Sarcasm intended)So many people in denial about this. If only you guys had offered suggestions instead of fillibustering and arguing about mechanics no one can prove whilst stating you know for a fact what this or that is (not you specifically, that other edeot).</blockquote>Did I say "we"? That's a rhetorical question in case you don't recognize it.But fear not, all those aggro problems are going away in a couple weeks.Your DPS is just going with it.

Wasuna

08-12-2011, 11:32 AM

I'll paraphrase what he said....Stick your head in the ground and your butt is a perfect target...

Trensharo

08-12-2011, 02:56 PM

<cite>Banditman wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Trenshero@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Banditman wrote:</cite><blockquote>I don't lose pets due to threat mechanics. Never have. I lose pets because of AE's.Plz fix.</blockquote>Glad to see you're the only summoner in the game and you speak for everyone.Enjoy your bubble.(Sarcasm intended)So many people in denial about this. If only you guys had offered suggestions instead of fillibustering and arguing about mechanics no one can prove whilst stating you know for a fact what this or that is (not you specifically, that other edeot).</blockquote>Did I say "we"? That's a rhetorical question in case you don't recognize it.But fear not, all those aggro problems are going away in a couple weeks.Your DPS is just going with it.</blockquote>TBQH, the DPS I lose from the SDA going away is probably a wash given the pet will never pull and I will never have to hold back after these changes go through. Dead Pets are a DPS loss, Threat-capped pets are a DPS loss, you dying cause the pet pulled and got gibbed is a DPS loss, killing other people because the MOB turned and frontaled people is beyond a DPS loss. Not all of us are selfish. The threat issues affect more than your DPS, it just so happens that the only way to avoid it is to consciously lower your own DPS.It depends on how you look at it.I didn't ask for it, so I find it comical that you people ran to this thread to position it as some sort of reason these fixes were implemented. I'm pretty sure this was done perhaps months before I even created this thread.Stop crying.A fix is needed cause you don't know how to stop your pet from getting gibbed by AoEs, but common threat issues are a L2P issue for the people who bring it up? This is delicious hypocrisy.

Banditman

08-12-2011, 03:07 PM

No, that was the point going over your head. Again. Clearly sarcasm is not your forte.I am quite adept at cycling my prevents to keep my pet alive. I don't have problems with it. However, I also don't have problems with hate either, whether that is because my tanks just rock that much or everyone elses are just that bad, I don't know.Frankly all you are asking for is for the entire class to be dumbed down to the point that anyone can play it, without any concern for what they are doing, so I thought I'd help you out by asking for complete immunity for pets.Congrats. You got it. Coming in a couple weeks, a gimped version of what used to be a good class. Anyone can play it, never have to worry about hate or any of the other intracies that make the class interesting. Don't worry about your tank, no matter how bad he is, you won't pull hate.Welcome to the new Conjuror.

Davngr1

08-13-2011, 01:15 AM

all you're going to get by talking to each other that way is getting the thread locked and deleted. if you want to curse each other out go to flames.

Wasuna

08-15-2011, 02:21 PM

Locked is fine.We had dozens of summoners come and say they had mage pet agro issues. We had 2... that's right Two (2) top end raid guild summoners come here and claim it was wrong and in our heads. The thread degenerated into an argument and not an attemtpt to isolate and identify the problem.The problem is clear. Top end tanks had more oppertunity to group with the proper hate buffs to overpower the pet agro. Tanks below that did not have the oppertunity most times to run with said buffs and therefore they had huge agro issues with summoner mage pets, specifically conjour mage pets. (This is when Banditman came and called these tanks people that did not know how to play their class....)The issue could have been fixed by opening up dehate spells on the pets in some percentage that allows for reasonable agro issues like all otehr DPS classes. Like 50% for the summoner and 50% for the pet.. etc. Instead summoners got a DPS nerf from what I understand.

Yimway

08-15-2011, 03:01 PM

<cite>Wasuna wrote:</cite><blockquote>The issue could have been fixed by opening up dehate spells on the pets in some percentage that allows for reasonable agro issues like all otehr DPS classes. Like 50% for the summoner and 50% for the pet.. etc. Instead summoners got a DPS nerf from what I understand.</blockquote>The -hategain on the pet was already pretty much maxed before the change.The issue was tanks not having enough aggro compaired to the ability for the class to ramp up significant short term damage boosts.Tanks geared and supported properly had little issue maintaining hate. Yes, I had to pay some attention to my parse window to see when a couple conjies were over-ramping dps and being pre-emptive to prevent agro loss, but in general it was pretty rare for them to pull agro in these circumstances.I could see it being a real issue in under geared, poorly built (class wise) and under skilled raid forces.All in all though, I felt the subclass was a tad high on its dps potential, so these changes were not all together unexpected.

Davngr1

08-15-2011, 03:57 PM

the problem was the "ae dot hate generation bug" that was doubled by SDA affecting dot's. at any rate this won't be a problem anymore now that summoners lost their pet SDA come lu 61. i really wish this thread had never been posted maybe dev's would have made changes with out targeting the SDA <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" />

dotdotdot

08-15-2011, 07:39 PM

<cite>Wasuna wrote:</cite><blockquote>Locked is fine.We had dozens of summoners come and say they had mage pet agro issues. We had 2... that's right Two (2) top end raid guild summoners come here and claim it was wrong and in our heads. The thread degenerated into an argument and not an attemtpt to isolate and identify the problem.</blockquote>I saw more than 2 people disagree with there being a pet hate problem. Lots of people were saying pets were generating precisely the amount of hate they should taking into consideration that they receive no -hate except if it came as part of an AA. Coercer and troub dehates did nothing. It was the people who insisted on comparing their non-hate-modified pet vs a wizard rocking capped dehate plus cycling his own dehates like a proper wizard would, and saying "How come my pet pulls agro doing less dps?" People who didn't understand mechanics are the reason why pets are getting nerfed.All that needed to be changed was to let pets either share the hate mod of their owner, or to be affected by hate mod buffs, be they group or single target.

Trensharo

08-15-2011, 10:51 PM

<cite>dotdotdot wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Wasuna wrote:</cite><blockquote>Locked is fine.We had dozens of summoners come and say they had mage pet agro issues. We had 2... that's right Two (2) top end raid guild summoners come here and claim it was wrong and in our heads. The thread degenerated into an argument and not an attemtpt to isolate and identify the problem.</blockquote>I saw more than 2 people disagree with there being a pet hate problem. Lots of people were saying pets were generating precisely the amount of hate they should taking into consideration that they receive no -hate except if it came as part of an AA. Coercer and troub dehates did nothing. It was the people who insisted on comparing their non-hate-modified pet vs a wizard rocking capped dehate plus cycling his own dehates like a proper wizard would, and saying "How come my pet pulls agro doing less dps?" People who didn't understand mechanics are the reason why pets are getting nerfed.All that needed to be changed was to let pets either share the hate mod of their owner, or to be affected by hate mod buffs, be they group or single target.</blockquote>He said high end Conjies. People like Nrgy don't count, TBQH.Also, DavnGr, those people did nothing but hurt their cause if they think this caused a nerf because instead of ignoring the thread they turned it into a BIG DEAL and a flame war.Their river of tears will not change that.Also, according to them, there is not AE DoT Hate Generation Bug. It's working as intended and if you're having issues you need to learn to play the game.

Hammieee

08-16-2011, 03:06 AM

Banditman

08-16-2011, 09:52 AM

What are you smoking and what does that have to do with the price of tea in china? You didn't make enough raids with us to have a clue what you are talking about.I find it amusing that in a thread about pets you're talking about an ability that has nothing to do with a pet.

Nrgy

08-16-2011, 03:01 PM

<cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote>The -hategain on the pet was already pretty much maxed before the change.The issue was tanks not having enough aggro compaired to the ability for the class to ramp up significant short term damage boosts.Tanks geared and supported properly had little issue maintaining hate. Yes, I had to pay some attention to my parse window to see when a couple conjies were over-ramping dps and being pre-emptive to prevent agro loss, but in general it was pretty rare for them to pull agro in these circumstances.I could see it being a real issue in under geared, poorly built (class wise) and under skilled raid forces.All in all though, I felt the subclass was a tad high on its dps potential, so these changes were not all together unexpected.</blockquote>^^ This is correct ...<cite></cite><cite>dotdotdot wrote:</cite><blockquote>I saw more than 2 people disagree with there being a pet hate problem. Lots of people were saying pets were generating precisely the amount of hate they should taking into consideration that they receive no -hate except if it came as part of an AA. Coercer and troub dehates did nothing. It was the people who insisted on comparing their non-hate-modified pet vs a wizard rocking capped dehate plus cycling his own dehates like a proper wizard would, and saying "How come my pet pulls agro doing less dps?" People who didn't understand mechanics are the reason why pets are getting nerfed.All that needed to be changed was to let pets either share the hate mod of their owner, or to be affected by hate mod buffs, be they group or single target.</blockquote>^^ This is Correct ...<cite>Trenshero@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>Also, according to them, there is not AE DoT Hate Generation Bug. It's working as intended and if you're having issues you need to learn to play the game.</blockquote>^^ This is Correct ... Trenshero@Antonia Bayle wrote: <-------------- This is NEVER correctAnd just to straighten you out, once and for all, I never claimed to be a High-End Conjy I only claimed to know how to play a summoner and I pretty much claimed that you do not and I still do. This is YOUR thread (OP) and these are YOUR tears. The fact remains that YOU cannot over come mechanics that other people seem to beable to do so easily and have been for the past 6 months. This is NOT a Summoner Pet problem and this thread DID NOT contribute to the SDA nerf. This thread blantenly claims SOE is screwing up summoner DPS intentially now just like they intentially disallowed Hat Mods to effect pets when DOV launched.The bottom line in resonse to your OP is simply "don't worry about your Pet's threat, after GU61 is live you won't have the DPS that requires any de-hate."

dotdotdot

08-16-2011, 07:26 PM

<cite>Trenshero@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>He said high end Conjies. People like Nrgy don't count, TBQH.</blockquote>So, only high end conjy's opinions matter when they disagree with you? You didn't seem to discount anyone's playstyle when they were agreeing with your opinion.

acctlc

08-16-2011, 10:48 PM

<cite>Nrgy wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>DotuMing wrote:</cite><blockquote>Just lol at this..I have been playing eq since beta of eq1. I have been playing a conj since launch. I know my class pretty well thank you very much. Im in a top 5 WW raiding guild. I know the mechanics of the game pretty intimately. Where do you get off telling conjies that our pets are fine? You dont even play one. I could care less about necros. Your pet is fine? Hey great. Now quit telling me at the top end of dps that our conjie pets are fine. They arent.If your telling me that having to sit in a raid and having to stop DPS while the pet aggro cools off for a minute or just killing off the pet and resummoning is what we have to do, then I say you need your head examined. As it stands right now, I cant go into PUGS, I Cant do zones with lower geared friends because my PET ALONE will grab aggro with NO casting from me. The only class that can hold aggro off the pet is a Pally with amends directly on the pet. Of course that solution is great if a pally is the MT, but if he isnt, well get ready for some downtime because your going to have a lot of it. Seriously get some better gear, get your dps up on a CONJ, and then come here and say with a straight face that there is no problem. Noone was crying for a DPS nerf. If you read my bloody posts, we are asking that some type of threat management be allowed on our pets. Be it peaceful link, de aggro adornments..Something. In short you dont play a conjie and you have no clue about the conjie pets. Please stop commenting on Conjie pets.</blockquote>Having been with the EQ title for 10 or 11 years I would think a better understanding of the game mechanics would have been acquired. Conjy pets pull aggro .... Yes we all know that. Pet Threat is broken (as this post so desperately is trying to claim) is untrue and taking that position shows the lack of knowledge of the game mechanics some players have.SOE turned off specific hate mods from applying to pets for a reason. Everyone seemed 'OK' with this up until last week. As you said a Pallys Amends is the only way your pet can be used without 'sitting out' 1/2 the fight. It would be my guess that SOE doesn't even realize Amends works on pets and if they did they would turn it OFF. I'm in favor of turning off Amends on Pets, why bother letting Pally buffs effect pets and not the chanters or bards. This is beacuse SOE WANTED it this way. They could have just as easily made link apply to pets among other player hate debuffs. They could have easily made hate mod a shared stat. There is nothing broken as that is how SOE wanted it at that time. the Amends trick is an exploit imo and clearly not working as intended, like all the other hate mod debuffs.When DOV released this wasn't as much of an issue, but now summoners are geared up in HM raid gear and the DPS has increased exponetially. So what does SOE decide to do? Turn on the hate mods shared by the summoners? Allow hate mod buffs to apply from other group members? Nope, they 'Re-Vamp' the class and 'give' the summoners tools. By Re-Vamping the class they remove several DPS tools and over-write them with TPS management tools. Effectively applying a DPS NERF. So, what do the players think of that? Well, appearantly veterans, whom have been around for over a decade, say Thanks You.G/J</blockquote>Quite frankly from a perspective of a conjuror with group stoneskins capable of replacing the stoneskins provided by a dirge, the ability to amends a pet makes perfect sense to me. I'd like to think it made perfect sense to the devs too. Assuming a tank, 2 heals, bard and chanter, with your Conjuror in with the OT..or even the MT group (this wouldn't happen often grant you) stoneskins are covered but where is the hate generation for a pally. Putting amends on the conjuror sure isn't going to keep a raid full of dps from pulling aggro. Take away any of the traditional compontents such as bard/chanter for a high aggro generating class like a wizzie? Or just lose stoneskins in which case a rather appealing aa for the mage group tank gets nullified in the case of a Pally.

Trensharo

08-17-2011, 12:57 AM

<cite>dotdotdot wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Trenshero@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>He said high end Conjies. People like Nrgy don't count, TBQH.</blockquote>So, only high end conjy's opinions matter when they disagree with you? You didn't seem to discount anyone's playstyle when they were agreeing with your opinion.</blockquote>No, I'm just pointing out a failure of reading comprehension. I'm not a Conjuror, I'm a Necro.But thanks for telling me how I think <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

dotdotdot

08-17-2011, 02:12 AM

You clearly said Nrgy's opinion didn't count. I didn't tell you how to think, you made it clear yourself.

Trensharo

08-17-2011, 04:34 AM

I'd respond to that, but I'm tired of trying to skirt this forum's over-zealous word filter.I said you were telling me how I think, not how to think.

Hammieee

08-17-2011, 08:05 AM

<cite>Banditman wrote:</cite><blockquote>What are you smoking and what does that have to do with the price of tea in china? You didn't make enough raids with us to have a clue what you are talking about.I find it amusing that in a thread about pets you're talking about an ability that has nothing to do with a pet.</blockquote>lol i made plenty of enough raids to know that your main tank has agro issues, i know you have ripped it before. I HAVE ripped it with my threat transfer, at first i though wush was crazy about exiles tanking but im starting to believe it.And ive also played a summoner before, lifeburning is not the point you and your pet have ripped agro before period

Banditman

08-17-2011, 09:48 AM

Yep, absolutely, when I hit a PS'ed, TW'ed EB less than 5 seconds into the fight, I absolutely do pull aggro. And it's my fault, and I know it. Most people who knock down 1.5 million+ damage that fast will pull aggro.Fortunately for all involved, you're no longer with the guild, and that pretty much ends my response to you.

Hammieee

08-17-2011, 12:03 PM

<cite>Banditman wrote:</cite><blockquote>Yep, absolutely, when I hit a PS'ed, TW'ed EB less than 5 seconds into the fight, I absolutely do pull aggro. And it's my fault, and I know it. Most people who knock down 1.5 million+ damage that fast will pull aggro.Fortunately for all involved, you're no longer with the guild, and that pretty much ends my response to you.</blockquote>lol so you admit you are stupid and rip agro?

Banditman

08-17-2011, 12:43 PM

Yep. I do it all the time. You caught me cold cowboy. Great work there.

Hammieee

08-17-2011, 04:03 PM

<cite>Banditman wrote:</cite><blockquote>Yep. I do it all the time. You caught me cold cowboy. Great work there.</blockquote>well if your doing it, and you continue you shouldnt be playing a conj none the less leading a raid

Nrgy

08-17-2011, 04:18 PM

<cite>Hammieee@Everfrost wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Banditman wrote:</cite><blockquote>Yep. I do it all the time. You caught me cold cowboy. Great work there.</blockquote>well if your doing it, and you continue you shouldnt be playing a conj none the less leading a raid</blockquote>I like this guy ... maybe he'll be such a pita and antagonistic that his attempts to de-rail this idiotic thread will finally get it locked, like it should have been back on page #1.

Hammieee

08-18-2011, 01:12 AM

<cite>Nrgy wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Hammieee@Everfrost wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Banditman wrote:</cite><blockquote>Yep. I do it all the time. You caught me cold cowboy. Great work there.</blockquote>well if your doing it, and you continue you shouldnt be playing a conj none the less leading a raid</blockquote>I like this guy ... maybe he'll be such a pita and antagonistic that his attempts to de-rail this idiotic thread will finally get it locked, like it should have been back on page #1.</blockquote>no i just dumb threads

Nrgy

08-18-2011, 11:05 AM

<cite>Hammieee@Everfrost wrote:</cite><blockquote>no i just dumb threads</blockquote>Well you've come to the right place.... they don't get any dumber then this one.

Banditman

08-18-2011, 11:17 AM

<cite>Hammieee@Everfrost wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Banditman wrote:</cite><blockquote>Yep. I do it all the time. You caught me cold cowboy. Great work there.</blockquote>well if your doing it, and you continue you shouldnt be playing a conj none the less leading a raid</blockquote>You're right. I quit. Done with EQ2. Thanks for your help.

Drumstix

08-18-2011, 03:31 PM

Honestly, pet defensive stance should just reduce damage or something so it's not so tempting to use. No class should be benefiting offensively from going into a "defensive stance".

Yimway

08-18-2011, 03:35 PM

Nrgy

08-18-2011, 04:02 PM

<cite>Drumstixx@Blackburrow wrote:</cite><blockquote>Honestly, pet defensive stance should just reduce damage or something so it's not so tempting to use. No class should be benefiting offensively from going into a "defensive stance".</blockquote>Tell that to all the fighters that use thier "O" stance to tank ... seems to be a similar, albeit reversed, situation. They are more defensive because they take an offensive approach. Dead mobs can't hurt you. That plus the content outside of raids is getting to the trivial point now, if it hasn't already.

Banditman

08-18-2011, 04:04 PM

Hammieee

08-21-2011, 08:27 AM

<cite>Banditman wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Hammieee@Everfrost wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Banditman wrote:</cite><blockquote>Yep. I do it all the time. You caught me cold cowboy. Great work there.</blockquote>well if your doing it, and you continue you shouldnt be playing a conj none the less leading a raid</blockquote>You're right. I quit. Done with EQ2. Thanks for your help.</blockquote>good, your terrible gratz bro

Trensharo

08-27-2011, 01:52 PM

Just checking in to laugh at the people who were yelling the sky is falling earlier in this thread.LOL

Nrgy

08-30-2011, 12:22 PM

<cite>Trenshero@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>Just checking in to laugh at the people who were yelling the sky is falling earlier in this thread.LOL</blockquote>You're only laughing at yourself ... remember this is your sorry thread. The sky is falling broken threat thread.My DPS is fine post-GU61, better in-fact, just like I said it would be. But if anyone has threat issues now they should just stop playing a summoners all together as its even more redonkulious now how many AA's you can WASTE on threat management that anyone that knows how to play a summoner never needed in the first place.

Xalmat

08-30-2011, 12:29 PM

A few points into Minion's Attention (which is easy to find room for even in a pure DPS spec) solves a lot of aggro problems.

SOE-MOD-02

08-30-2011, 12:46 PM

This post has moved: <a href="/eq2/posts/preList.m?topic_id=499962&post_id=5620367" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">/eq2/posts/preList.m?topic_id=49996...post_id=5620367</a> Do not intentionally evade the word filter or insult others.

Trensharo

08-30-2011, 12:48 PM

<cite>Nrgy wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Banditman wrote:</cite><blockquote>Except for the fact that every summoner pet just lost 10% SDA.This is a significant nerf.But have no fear!Now all that threat your pet is no longer generating can be transferred to the summoner!</blockquote>Thank goodness this idiotic thread will finally die when GU61 goes live! The next thread which will take its place will be titled: “Pet Nerf lowers Summoner DPS back to pre-SF tier 2 levels” OR “Beastlords are taking all the Summoner raid spots”. Pet TPS fix = Pet DPS nerfs, just like I posted back on page 1. So everyone complaining about Pet TPS should at least be happy with GU61. Those summoners which were able to overcome pet TPS will still be able to overcome the lack of pet DPS through these Nerfs. I seriously doubt those summoners who could not get past the pet TPS issues will be able to get past the upcoming pet DPS issues.Welcome to Tier 2 DPS, enjoy your stay.</blockquote>Here you go!

Nrgy

08-30-2011, 01:24 PM

<cite>Trenshero@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Nrgy wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Banditman wrote:</cite><blockquote>Except for the fact that every summoner pet just lost 10% SDA.This is a significant nerf.But have no fear!Now all that threat your pet is no longer generating can be transferred to the summoner!</blockquote>Thank goodness this idiotic thread will finally die when GU61 goes live! The next thread which will take its place will be titled: “Pet Nerf lowers Summoner DPS back to pre-SF tier 2 levels” OR “Beastlords are taking all the Summoner raid spots”. Pet TPS fix = Pet DPS nerfs, just like I posted back on page 1. So everyone complaining about Pet TPS should at least be happy with GU61. Those summoners which were able to overcome pet TPS will still be able to overcome the lack of pet DPS through these Nerfs. I seriously doubt those summoners who could not get past the pet TPS issues will be able to get past the upcoming pet DPS issues.Welcome to Tier 2 DPS, enjoy your stay.</blockquote>Here you go!</blockquote>This only supports my post ... nice job being so obtuse ... I think this quote is pretty much spot-on, thanks.I haven't seen anyone saying PET DPS is up and I personnally don't have any issue with PET DPS before or after the GU. Anyone who thinks the loss of 12.5 DSA is going to add DPS to the PET is only fooling themselves. Maybe you can make an argument that 5% potency is more PET DPS then 12.5% SDA but I doubt it. And I don't want to hear that a weaker live pet is more DPS then a stronger dead pet, due to broken threat mechanics which didn't exist.This is a PET DPS nerf ... losing SDA 12.5% is a bigger PET DPS loss than gaining 5% potency is a DPS gain ... the net is a DPS NERF. Hello! (DPS Nerf for the PET, edit for clairity)Summoner DPS wasn't this threads topic, nor was it anything I ever thought I would experience. My DPS is equal or higher now than it was before the GU.Pet DPS is down... due to trading 12.5% SDA for 5% potency... threat tools are not needed as much with lower PET DPS. Summoners were given three times the amount of threat tools which they didn't need before the GU. Quote me all you want .. I've always said the same thing... there was NO Pet Threat issue before the GU if you L2P. The good news now is that you don't have to.But I see you don't live by the age-old adage; "If you find yourself in a hole, the first thing you should do is stop digging!""Those summoners which were able to overcome pet TPS will still be able to overcome the lack of pet DPS through these Nerfs" <--- This implies that I am not one of those summoners which suffered before from TPS issues or one of those summoners which would suffer after the PET DPS NERF, but some people in this thread seem to be both. And don't use big words you clearly don't know the meaning of ... (i diot).

Nrgy

08-30-2011, 02:27 PM

<cite>Xalmat wrote:</cite><blockquote>A few points into Minion's Attention (which is easy to find room for even in a pure DPS spec) solves a lot of aggro problems.</blockquote>I wish that was able to be toggled on/off .. it makes farming a pita, but nothing having a few extra AA mirrors can't fix.

Trensharo

08-31-2011, 11:51 PM

<cite>Nrgy wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Trenshero@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Nrgy wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Banditman wrote:</cite><blockquote>Except for the fact that every summoner pet just lost 10% SDA.This is a significant nerf.But have no fear!Now all that threat your pet is no longer generating can be transferred to the summoner!</blockquote>Thank goodness this idiotic thread will finally die when GU61 goes live! The next thread which will take its place will be titled: “Pet Nerf lowers Summoner DPS back to pre-SF tier 2 levels” OR “Beastlords are taking all the Summoner raid spots”. Pet TPS fix = Pet DPS nerfs, just like I posted back on page 1. So everyone complaining about Pet TPS should at least be happy with GU61. Those summoners which were able to overcome pet TPS will still be able to overcome the lack of pet DPS through these Nerfs. I seriously doubt those summoners who could not get past the pet TPS issues will be able to get past the upcoming pet DPS issues.Welcome to Tier 2 DPS, enjoy your stay.</blockquote>Here you go!</blockquote>This only supports my post ... nice job being so obtuse ... I think this quote is pretty much spot-on, thanks.I haven't seen anyone saying PET DPS is up and I personnally don't have any issue with PET DPS before or after the GU. Anyone who thinks the loss of 12.5 DSA is going to add DPS to the PET is only fooling themselves. Maybe you can make an argument that 5% potency is more PET DPS then 12.5% SDA but I doubt it. And I don't want to hear that a weaker live pet is more DPS then a stronger dead pet, due to broken threat mechanics which didn't exist.This is a PET DPS nerf ... losing SDA 12.5% is a bigger PET DPS loss than gaining 5% potency is a DPS gain ... the net is a DPS NERF. Hello! (DPS Nerf for the PET, edit for clairity)Summoner DPS wasn't this threads topic, nor was it anything I ever thought I would experience. My DPS is equal or higher now than it was before the GU.Pet DPS is down... due to trading 12.5% SDA for 5% potency... threat tools are not needed as much with lower PET DPS. Summoners were given three times the amount of threat tools which they didn't need before the GU. Quote me all you want .. I've always said the same thing... there was NO Pet Threat issue before the GU if you L2P. The good news now is that you don't have to.But I see you don't live by the age-old adage; "If you find yourself in a hole, the first thing you should do is stop digging!""Those summoners which were able to overcome pet TPS will still be able to overcome the lack of pet DPS through these Nerfs" <--- This implies that I am not one of those summoners which suffered before from TPS issues or one of those summoners which would suffer after the PET DPS NERF, but some people in this thread seem to be both. And don't use big words you clearly don't know the meaning of ... (i diot). </blockquote>You wrote the whole post, not just a little snippet. Just read the last sentence. It states exactly what you implied. You didn't say DPS would stay the same or go up. You're flat out lying.Lol.

Nrgy

09-01-2011, 12:19 PM

<cite>Trenshero@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Nrgy wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Trenshero@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Nrgy wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Banditman wrote:</cite><blockquote>Except for the fact that every summoner pet just lost 10% SDA.This is a significant nerf.But have no fear!Now all that threat your pet is no longer generating can be transferred to the summoner!</blockquote>Thank goodness this idiotic thread will finally die when GU61 goes live! The next thread which will take its place will be titled: “Pet Nerf lowers Summoner DPS back to pre-SF tier 2 levels” OR “Beastlords are taking all the Summoner raid spots”. Pet TPS fix = Pet DPS nerfs, just like I posted back on page 1. So everyone complaining about Pet TPS should at least be happy with GU61. Those summoners which were able to overcome pet TPS will still be able to overcome the lack of pet DPS through these Nerfs. I seriously doubt those summoners who could not get past the pet TPS issues will be able to get past the upcoming pet DPS issues.Welcome to Tier 2 DPS, enjoy your stay.</blockquote>Here you go!</blockquote>This only supports my post ... nice job being so obtuse ... I think this quote is pretty much spot-on, thanks.I haven't seen anyone saying PET DPS is up and I personnally don't have any issue with PET DPS before or after the GU. Anyone who thinks the loss of 12.5 DSA is going to add DPS to the PET is only fooling themselves. Maybe you can make an argument that 5% potency is more PET DPS then 12.5% SDA but I doubt it. And I don't want to hear that a weaker live pet is more DPS then a stronger dead pet, due to broken threat mechanics which didn't exist.This is a PET DPS nerf ... losing SDA 12.5% is a bigger PET DPS loss than gaining 5% potency is a DPS gain ... the net is a DPS NERF. Hello! (DPS Nerf for the PET, edit for clairity)Summoner DPS wasn't this threads topic, nor was it anything I ever thought I would experience. My DPS is equal or higher now than it was before the GU.Pet DPS is down... due to trading 12.5% SDA for 5% potency... threat tools are not needed as much with lower PET DPS. Summoners were given three times the amount of threat tools which they didn't need before the GU. Quote me all you want .. I've always said the same thing... there was NO Pet Threat issue before the GU if you L2P. The good news now is that you don't have to.But I see you don't live by the age-old adage; "If you find yourself in a hole, the first thing you should do is stop digging!""Those summoners which were able to overcome pet TPS will still be able to overcome the lack of pet DPS through these Nerfs" <--- This implies that I am not one of those summoners which suffered before from TPS issues or one of those summoners which would suffer after the PET DPS NERF, but some people in this thread seem to be both. And don't use big words you clearly don't know the meaning of ... (i diot). </blockquote>You wrote the whole post, not just a little snippet. Just read the last sentence. It states exactly what you implied. You didn't say DPS would stay the same or go up. You're flat out lying.Lol.</blockquote>You're just plain wrong... and apparently have zero reading comprehension.