Paladins and Undead

[Lalen]

<p>From all my years of playing EverQuest paladins have always been Norrath's defenders against the undead smiting undead around every corner and showing no mercy to those restless spirits determined to haunt the lands.  In fact many of the first paladin weapons were specifically designed above all other weaponry to smite these evil foes.</p><p>However my attention has been turned again to the obvious undead vampires freed of their bloodlust [Freebloods] and how they could possibly become a paladin without the compulsive urge to slit their own wrists.  That is a conundrum worthy of debate.</p>

[kelvmor]

<p><cite>Lalen@Everfrost wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>From all my years of playing EverQuest paladins have always been Norrath's defenders against the undead smiting undead around every corner and showing no mercy to those restless spirits determined to haunt the lands.  In fact many of the first paladin weapons were specifically designed above all other weaponry to smite these evil foes.</p><p>However my attention has been turned again to the obvious undead vampires freed of their bloodlust [Freebloods] and how they could possibly become a paladin without the compulsive urge to slit their own wrists.  That is a conundrum worthy of debate.</p></blockquote><p>You know, this is one of the problems I had with the Freebloods, as well. How can the flarking TEMPLE OF LIFE allow undead in its ranks?</p>

[Suriaan]

<p>You know, this is the very reason I created a vampire paladin.  I thought it was hilarious.  Here is a character that sees the world as good or evil and all undead are lumped in the evil category, but then he is turned into a vampire.  Is he still a Paladin?  Paladin's can't commit suicide as that could be considered evil.  Does he hate is own existence? Will he wonder the world dispensing is own version of justice?  Will he be shuned or out right hunted by all the temples in Norrath?  </p><p>This sounded like the most interesting character I could make, and made one for that purpose.  I even gave him cloud of bats.  </p><p>Another question is, do you see the Norrath vampires as Buffy the Vampire slayer, Underworld, Dracula, or twilight.  I view them more like Underworld, where vampirism is more a virus without a cure.  The essence of who they are could remain.  The show inner self is much like the hybrid at the end of the movie.  </p><p>Regardless of your view, the whole idea of  a Vampire Paladin is still funny to me and I like playing that character.</p>

[Rainmare]

<p>I reguard it in a slightly different manner..like the Freebloods...none of the original stock are turned by choice. they are adventures who 'failed' the Haunted house during NoTD so perhasp they retained thier powers to 'redeem' or 'avenge' themselves.</p>

[Lalen]

<p><cite>Rainmare@Oasis wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I reguard it in a slightly different manner..like the Freebloods...none of the original stock are turned by choice. they are adventures who 'failed' the Haunted house during NoTD so perhasp they retained thier powers to 'redeem' or 'avenge' themselves.</p></blockquote><p>Still the very vow a paladin takes before taking up his/her sword instructs him/her to commit suicide as a freeblood.</p><p>Remember the aa in EQ1 Vow of Honor or something like that which would kill you and give all your life to the targeted player?  The lore behind this was something to do to keep the paladin from turning undead himself -- by giving his own life-force to an ally before death his essence couldn't be turned.  I can't see how Freeblood Paladins make any sense in lore.</p>

[Aneova]

<p>I do believe Lucan D'Lere is a Paladin still despite being a Lich.</p>

[Rainmare]

<p>No lucan lost his paladin powers long before he became that lich thing he is now. in fact his story is the only one of Mith Marr actually stripping someone of thier divine power.</p><p>though considering the information we have, you could maybe suggest that the Freebloods aren't 'true' vampires. the notes they used to create thier turning process were from MAyong and Tserrina's notes. and Tserrina isn't a 'true' vampire either.</p><p>so the freebloods may be Vampiric, but are not actually vampires/undead...thier something else, which explains free will and the ability to walk in the daylight.</p>

[Cusashorn]

<p><cite>Rainmare@Oasis wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>No lucan lost his paladin powers long before he became that lich thing he is now. in fact his story is the only one of Mith Marr actually stripping someone of thier divine power.</p><p>though considering the information we have, you could maybe suggest that the Freebloods aren't 'true' vampires. the notes they used to create thier turning process were from MAyong and Tserrina's notes. and Tserrina isn't a 'true' vampire either.</p><p>so the freebloods may be Vampiric, but are not actually vampires/undead...thier something else, which explains free will and the ability to walk in the daylight.</p></blockquote><p>Yeah the Freebloods aren't truely undead. They used to be humans and elves who were experimented on with experiments to turn them into vampires, but they escaped and retained their free will. They're.... living vampires for lack of a better way to describe them.</p>

[Lalen]

<p><cite>Cusashorn wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Yeah the Freebloods aren't truely undead. They used to be humans and elves who were experimented on with experiments to turn them into vampires, but they escaped and retained their free will. They're.... living vampires for lack of a better way to describe them.</p></blockquote><p>Via lore and game mechanics Freebloods do not have a pulse (try out infravision).  In just about every senerio this is undead as I cannot see how anything can live without a heartbeat unless it is vegitation or some strange tropical insect.</p>

[Cusashorn]

Yeah well... This is what happens when you release a race as a ploy to gain more money while giving them no well thought-out background lore...

[Rainmare]

<p>the background lore for the Freebloods isn't bad. it's just the lore doesn't take into account ARAC mechanics. just like there's no lore or even logical reason a Troll should be a mage. They just are not that itelligent, period. I mean the most intelligent troll we've ever seen was the one in the ethernaught stories, and they barely trusted him enough to be able to cook something that wouldn't kill them.</p><p>So yeah, Freeblood are some kind of freak vampiric thing that retained free will, and can walk in the daylight. so by all rights, they shouldn't be templars, or paladins. but since they put in arac, we have lore conundrums like these.</p>

[Mixxit]

<p>Hmm well based on the oath they take</p><p>TESTIMONY TRUTH I believe in the might of Mithaniel Marr. I shall uphold the words of Marr and defend them with my life. I shall protect the righteous weak and avenge the souls of those whose life has been taken for naught. From this day forth I shall become a living vessel for the ideals of the Truthbringer and if I should ever falter from his grace may he cast me from this life and into the lifeless void. PRAISE BE TO MARR Sir Lucan D'Lere -----------</p><p>If they have been turned then they should be able to retain their powers to 'avenge the souls of those whose life has been taken for naught' - ie themselves</p>

[Tyrus Dracofire]

<p>they are also known as "Dhampyres", hybrid vampires who can tolerate daylight.</p><p>result from during mothers' pregnancy, got bitten, this created the babies born with blood curse.</p><p>kind of "Day-walkers" version.</p>

[Cusashorn]

<p><cite>Tyrus@Butcherblock wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>they are also known as "Dhampyres", hybrid vampires who can tolerate daylight.</p><p>result from during mothers' pregnancy, got bitten, this created the babies born with blood curse.</p><p>kind of "Day-walkers" version.</p></blockquote><p>I don't think being an escaped experiment counts as being a "dhampyre" since they're not half-vampire hybrids born from a vampire and non-vampire mother and father.</p>

[Zabjade]

<p><span style="color: #00cc00;">Maybe not in the classical sense, but artifically-created </span><span ><span style="color: #00cc00;">Dhampyres are what they could be.</span></span></p>

[Seidhkona]

<p><cite>Aneova@Kithicor wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I do believe Lucan D'Lere is a Paladin still despite being a Lich.</p></blockquote><p>Lucan D'Lere has paladin buffs.</p>

[Iskandar]

<p><cite>Mixxit@Nagafen wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Hmm well based on the oath they take</p><p>TESTIMONY TRUTH I believe in the might of Mithaniel Marr. I shall uphold the words of Marr and defend them with my life. I shall protect the righteous weak and avenge the souls of those whose life has been taken for naught. From this day forth I shall become a living vessel for the ideals of the Truthbringer and if I should ever falter from his grace may he cast me from this life and into the lifeless void. PRAISE BE TO MARR Sir Lucan D'Lere -----------</p><p>If they have been turned then they should be able to retain their powers to 'avenge the souls of those whose life has been taken for naught' - ie themselves</p></blockquote><p>That oath was just for the Knights of Truth in Freeport in EQ1. Not all Paladins in EQ1 were followers of Mithaniel Marr though -- there were quite a few who followed Prexus, Tunare or the Tribunal, especially since racial restrictions often severely limited deity choice.</p><p>In EQ2, where we can pick amongst any of the gods open to our alignment, you could have a Paladin of Karana or Solusek Ro or Quellious or even Bristlebane, if you so choose. You could even be agnostic and not pick a deity at all. My Paladin has the Tribunal as her deity and simply serves him as the hand of justice, tho being a Wood Elf she has declared fealty to Tunare above all others and merely has the blessing of Marr upon her blade.</p><p>To me, it seems like it would all depend on the <strong><em>source</em></strong> of the Paladin's holy power... if the Paladin draws their power from their <strong>deity</strong> of choice, then it seems like it's the deity who decides if the Freeblood is worthy of being a Paladin or not. If the Paladin draws their power from within <strong>themselves</strong>, then the Freeblood must still be pure of heart or their own holy power would consume and destroy them.</p>

[Mixxit]

<p>Hmm there are ghost paladins in forsaken city - i guess their source would be zebuxorok</p>

[GussJr]

<p><cite>Suriaan@The Bazaar wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>You know, this is the very reason I created a vampire paladin.  I thought it was hilarious.  Here is a character that sees the world as good or evil and all undead are lumped in the evil category, but then he is turned into a vampire.  Is he still a Paladin?  Paladin's can't commit suicide as that could be considered evil.  Does he hate is own existence? Will he wonder the world dispensing is own version of justice?  Will he be shuned or out right hunted by all the temples in Norrath?  </p><p>This sounded like the most interesting character I could make, and made one for that purpose.  I even gave him cloud of bats.  </p><p>Another question is, do you see the Norrath vampires as Buffy the Vampire slayer, Underworld, Dracula, or twilight.  I view them more like Underworld, where vampirism is more a virus without a cure.  The essence of who they are could remain.  The show inner self is much like the hybrid at the end of the movie.  </p><p>Regardless of your view, the whole idea of  a Vampire Paladin is still funny to me and I like playing that character.</p></blockquote><p>This would be EQ2's version of the perfect EMO kid LOL</p>

[Cusashorn]

<p><cite>Sigrdrifa@Lucan DLere wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Aneova@Kithicor wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I do believe Lucan D'Lere is a Paladin still despite being a Lich.</p></blockquote><p>Lucan D'Lere has paladin buffs.</p></blockquote><p>His *STATUE* has a paladin buff. That doesn't mean that he does, and even if he does, that doesn't automatically mean he's still a paladin just because the game mechanics say so.</p>

[Meirril]

<p><cite>GussJr wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Suriaan@The Bazaar wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>You know, this is the very reason I created a vampire paladin.  I thought it was hilarious.  Here is a character that sees the world as good or evil and all undead are lumped in the evil category, but then he is turned into a vampire.  Is he still a Paladin?  Paladin's can't commit suicide as that could be considered evil.  Does he hate is own existence? Will he wonder the world dispensing is own version of justice?  Will he be shuned or out right hunted by all the temples in Norrath?  </p><p>This sounded like the most interesting character I could make, and made one for that purpose.  I even gave him cloud of bats.  </p><p>Another question is, do you see the Norrath vampires as Buffy the Vampire slayer, Underworld, Dracula, or twilight.  I view them more like Underworld, where vampirism is more a virus without a cure.  The essence of who they are could remain.  The show inner self is much like the hybrid at the end of the movie.  </p><p>Regardless of your view, the whole idea of  a Vampire Paladin is still funny to me and I like playing that character.</p></blockquote><p>This would be EQ2's version of the perfect EMO kid LOL</p></blockquote><p>I could swear that has always been a dirge?</p>

[Lalen]

<p><cite>Mixxit@Nagafen wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Hmm well based on the oath they take</p><p>TESTIMONY TRUTH I believe in the might of Mithaniel Marr. I shall uphold the words of Marr and defend them with my life. I shall protect the righteous weak and avenge the souls of those <strong>whose life has been taken for naught</strong>. From this day forth I shall become <span style="font-size: medium;"><strong>a living vessel</strong></span> for the ideals of the Truthbringer and if I should ever falter from his grace may he cast me from this life and into the lifeless void. PRAISE BE TO MARR Sir Lucan D'Lere -----------</p><p>If they have been turned then they should be able to retain their powers to 'avenge the souls of those whose life has been taken for naught' - ie themselves</p></blockquote><p>QFE</p><p>Via lore, Freeblood should not have access to be a paladin IMO, I cannot see issues with other classes, but you know, when this first came out, Smokejumper clearly said, "Lets just say the new class is undead" (as all SK's go crazy). </p><p>So are they undead or not?  No pulse, no "essence" which all living things have whom are not possessed, so... tell me exactly if they are not undead how this works because by all lore is concerned from both EQ2 and EQ1 Freebloods as a Paladin just makes no utter sense -- unless we're going to to have skeletons as player races in the marketplace that can also be a Paladin simply because it has algae growing on it.</p>

[Mixxit]

<p><cite>Lalen@Everfrost wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Mixxit@Nagafen wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Hmm well based on the oath they take</p><p>TESTIMONY TRUTH I believe in the might of Mithaniel Marr. I shall uphold the words of Marr and defend them with my life. I shall protect the righteous weak and avenge the souls of those <strong>whose life has been taken for naught</strong>. From this day forth I shall become <span style="font-size: medium;"><strong>a living vessel</strong></span> for the ideals of the Truthbringer and if I should ever falter from his grace may he cast me from this life and into the lifeless void. PRAISE BE TO MARR Sir Lucan D'Lere -----------</p><p>If they have been turned then they should be able to retain their powers to 'avenge the souls of those whose life has been taken for naught' - ie themselves</p></blockquote><p>QFE</p><p>Via lore, Freeblood should not have access to be a paladin IMO, I cannot see issues with other classes, but you know, when this first came out, Smokejumper clearly said, "Lets just say the new class is undead" (as all SK's go crazy). </p><p>So are they undead or not?  No pulse, no "essence" which all living things have whom are not possessed, so... tell me exactly if they are not undead how this works because by all lore is concerned from both EQ2 and EQ1 Freebloods as a Paladin just makes no utter sense -- unless we're going to to have skeletons as player races in the marketplace that can also be a Paladin simply because it has algae growing on it.</p></blockquote><p>Taking the oath prior to turning would work - being turned would give you the power to avenge and you were Living prior to becoming unliving</p><p>In the case of the ghosts in forsaken city using paladin abilities they have had their lives taken for naught (the mages opening the portal in search of knowledge they had no business seeking) yet they still keep their powers beyond life</p>

[Brienae]

<p>It seems to me that some of the rules have gotten pretty lax regarding what is and is not acceptable. For example last expansion if you wanted to progress you had to run this certain quest line which forced you to perform Necromancy and there was no alternative.  My poor Fury was foaming at the mouth as I forced her through that quest line.</p><p>I made my Freeblood a dirge.</p>

[Cusashorn]

<p><cite>Brienae@Lucan DLere wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>It seems to me that some of the rules have gotten pretty lax regarding what is and is not acceptable. For example last expansion if you wanted to progress you had to run this certain quest line which forced you to perform Necromancy and there was no alternative.  My poor Fury was foaming at the mouth as I forced her through that quest line.</p><p>I made my Freeblood a dirge.</p></blockquote><p>The SCIENCE of Necromancy is openly studied in Paineel though. It doesn't matter if it goes against your own personal code, it is legal to perform there, so there's nothing wrong with indulging it.</p>

[Brienae]

<p><cite>Cusashorn wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Brienae@Lucan DLere wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>It seems to me that some of the rules have gotten pretty lax regarding what is and is not acceptable. For example last expansion if you wanted to progress you had to run this certain quest line which forced you to perform Necromancy and there was no alternative.  My poor Fury was foaming at the mouth as I forced her through that quest line.</p><p>I made my Freeblood a dirge.</p></blockquote><p>The SCIENCE of Necromancy is openly studied in Paineel though. It doesn't matter if it goes against your own personal code, it is legal to perform there, so there's nothing wrong with indulging it.</p></blockquote><p>True it is legal but it does  matter if it's against your personal code.  That's part of having a personal code. If it goes against your personal code and you do it anyway then you have to live with your concience. My Fury has decided that she is going to burn Paineel, Freeport and any other place which has legalized this "unnatural science" problem is getting into these places and not getting caught.  This is how she is coping with the fact that she was forced to use Necromancy.</p>

[Cusashorn]

But how are you as a player of a video game, who rightfully knows that you will never be able to burn these cities to the ground, coping with it?

[Brienae]

<p>As a player of a video game really I don't care.  For one thing if  as the player I had truly wanted to remain true to the character I the player  would never have run the quests on that character.  In the end everything lore and character personalities are all part of the game.  I (the player) like to <em><strong>roleplay</strong></em> my Fury as a zealous druid.  Truth is she's just a bunch of pixels with a detailed personality and background that I a player created and nothing matters.  I as a player  found it annoying that my zealous druid had to run these quests but in the larger scheme of things it doesn't matter because I also want to play the game. </p>

[Lalen]

<p><cite>Mixxit@Nagafen wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Taking the oath prior to turning would work - being turned would give you the power to avenge and you were Living prior to becoming unliving</p><p>In the case of the ghosts in forsaken city using paladin abilities they have had their lives taken for naught (the mages opening the portal in search of knowledge they had no business seeking) yet they still keep their powers beyond life</p></blockquote><p>Read the oath again... Should you falter from being a living vessel... Which is why you cannot find any undead paladins -- except freebloods.</p><p>Even paladin spirits are manafestations power and unlike undead, they are in the process of moving to another realm or the void.</p>

[Mixxit]

<p><cite>Lalen@Everfrost wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Mixxit@Nagafen wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Taking the oath prior to turning would work - being turned would give you the power to avenge and you were Living prior to becoming unliving</p><p>In the case of the ghosts in forsaken city using paladin abilities they have had their lives taken for naught (the mages opening the portal in search of knowledge they had no business seeking) yet they still keep their powers beyond life</p></blockquote><p>Read the oath again... Should you falter from being a living vessel... Which is why you cannot find any undead paladins -- except freebloods.</p><p>Even paladin spirits are manafestations power and unlike undead, they are in the process of moving to another realm or the void.</p></blockquote><p>That's falter from his grace - it means using free will to do something graceless - seeking to become a vampire is not the same as being turned by another - it would be an act on you - a terrible trajedy worthy of vengeance but i could see it also depending on if you maintain your free will to control yourself and any other side effects such as where you get your sustenence</p>

[Morghus]

<p>Why would any truly devoted paladin, undead or no, give up fighting for their cause simply because of their nature? One could argue, that for one to continue on their path even after such an incident, is a sign of even greater devotion</p>

[Meirril]

<p><cite>Lalen@Everfrost wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Mixxit@Nagafen wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Taking the oath prior to turning would work - being turned would give you the power to avenge and you were Living prior to becoming unliving</p><p>In the case of the ghosts in forsaken city using paladin abilities they have had their lives taken for naught (the mages opening the portal in search of knowledge they had no business seeking) yet they still keep their powers beyond life</p></blockquote><p>Read the oath again... Should you falter from being a living vessel... Which is why you cannot find any undead paladins -- except freebloods.</p><p>Even paladin spirits are manafestations power and unlike undead, they are in the process of moving to another realm or the void.</p></blockquote><p>Did you know that there is a dwarven paladin vampire in Mistmoor Catacombs?</p><p>I'm not objecting to the logic behind your assertions, except for the bit where I know of an undead paladin in game. They arn't common, but...</p><p>Also arn't most of the undead in both Befallen and Stormhold paladins? Also paladins exist in the game without the benifits of a patron diety. You can't even gain a diety on character creation. While lore indicates that Paladins fight against undead, they arn't given some special protection from becomming undead.</p>

[Meirril]

<p><cite>Morghus wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Why would any truly devoted paladin, undead or no, give up fighting for their cause simply because of their nature? One could argue, that for one to continue on their path even after such an incident, is a sign of even greater devotion</p></blockquote><p>Why would most undead seek to kill off the living? Because they are undead. Undeath acts as a corrupting influence on the personality. Most undead are quite mad, and obcessed with killing the living. Some are obcessed with killing their also undead enemies. Others have more obscure insanities. Some undead are so mindless they don't precieve changes in their enviroment until they are forced to acknowledge the changes.</p><p>So really they are a lot like the living in Norrath, but more extreme. Mainly weak personalities lead to the undead acting more like what you would expect of them. Only truely notible personalities stray from the steriotype.</p>

[Lalen]

<p><cite>Meirril wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Lalen@Everfrost wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Mixxit@Nagafen wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Taking the oath prior to turning would work - being turned would give you the power to avenge and you were Living prior to becoming unliving</p><p>In the case of the ghosts in forsaken city using paladin abilities they have had their lives taken for naught (the mages opening the portal in search of knowledge they had no business seeking) yet they still keep their powers beyond life</p></blockquote><p>Read the oath again... Should you falter from being a living vessel... Which is why you cannot find any undead paladins -- except freebloods.</p><p>Even paladin spirits are manafestations power and unlike undead, they are in the process of moving to another realm or the void.</p></blockquote><p>Did you know that there is a dwarven paladin vampire in Mistmoor Catacombs?</p><p>I'm not objecting to the logic behind your assertions, except for the bit where I know of an undead paladin in game. They arn't common, but...</p><p>Also arn't most of the undead in both Befallen and Stormhold paladins? Also paladins exist in the game without the benifits of a patron diety. You can't even gain a diety on character creation. While lore indicates that Paladins fight against undead, they arn't given some special protection from becomming undead.</p></blockquote><p>Yeah I had to look that one up to verify it -- and it does exist I conceed, but it is still very defiant of the lore.</p>

[Garnaf]

<p>The default oaths of a paladin in D&D (yes, I know it's a different rule set, but the whole idea of a paladin in EQ1 came from there, and the idea of Lucan being a fallen one, so it has merit) are about respecting Legitimate authority, always doing the right thing, and opposing evil where you find it.  There's nothing in the paladin oath that says "oh, and you can't be undead".</p><p>It's unusual to find undead that care overly much for the morals of the living, but they DO exist, and they CAN be paladins.  For the mobs in stormhold, this is pretty much just so there's more variety to "evil" crusader mobs like that than "Shadowknight, Shadowknight, another Shadowknight".  But there are a rare few NPCs that are undead paladins.  (EQ1's Lucan D'Lere, fallen tho he is, and supposedly powerless, WILL cast paladin spells and Lay on Hands for example, even after he's killed and respawns as his skeleton form.  Still casts, and lays hands.  Even though he's a warrior by class (or at least one of the warrior trainers))</p><p>Afterall you've never heard the concept of a "hunter of my own kind"?</p>

[Zabjade]

<p><span style="color: #00cc00;">Although, what about Paladins who came about before the </span><span style="font-size: xx-small; color: #00cc00;">g</span><span style="color: #00cc00;">odlings came back? I can see them not taking an  oath. Even now with them back there is no requirement for a Paladin to affiliate themselves with a particular </span><span style="font-size: xx-small; color: #00cc00;">g</span><span style="color: #00cc00;">odling.</span></p><p><span style="color: #00cc00;">Heh some of the Neutral ones might even have Paladins and Shadowknights at their beck and call.</span></p>

[Garnaf]

<p><cite>Zabjade wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><span style="color: #00cc00;">Although, what about Paladins who came about before the </span><span style="font-size: xx-small; color: #00cc00;">g</span><span style="color: #00cc00;">odlings came back? I can see them not taking an  oath. Even now with them back there is no requirement for a Paladin to affiliate themselves with a particular </span><span style="font-size: xx-small; color: #00cc00;">g</span><span style="color: #00cc00;">odling.</span></p><p><span style="color: #00cc00;">Heh some of the Neutral ones might even have Paladins and Shadowknights at their beck and call.</span></p></blockquote><p>Once again to call out D&D (Again, I know a different system).  Paladins don't always need a deity (though they often have one)  Their oath can just as easily be about the ideals they strive to live up to.  Non-Deity paladins in D&D have the oath I mentioned above (Do good wherever possible, respect legitimate authority, oppose evil whereever it is found).  More deity associated ones would have the oath slightly changed to respect what their deity oversees (A paladin of Nife for example might add "Heal the wounded and sick" and "destroy evil undead".  Where a Tunare one may add "Protect the sanctity of nature, and oppose the Teir'Dal".  Brell might make special mention of opposing Giants, Goblins, and the like.  One who worships the Tribunal could amend theirs to include bringing justice to the guilty, or hunting down fugitives.)</p><p>I know EQ1 Paladins (and Shadowknights) ALWAYS had to have a deity, but the above mentioned is just an example how diferent gods could all have different oaths with the same base.   I imagine in the time the Gods were AWOL the requirement simply defaulted to the baseline oath.</p>

[Meirril]

<p><cite>Dranikos@Butcherblock wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>The default oaths of a paladin in D&D (yes, I know it's a different rule set, but the whole idea of a paladin in EQ1 came from there, and the idea of Lucan being a fallen one, so it has merit) are about respecting Legitimate authority, always doing the right thing, and opposing evil where you find it.  There's nothing in the paladin oath that says "oh, and you can't be undead".</p><p>It's unusual to find undead that care overly much for the morals of the living, but they DO exist, and they CAN be paladins.  For the mobs in stormhold, this is pretty much just so there's more variety to "evil" crusader mobs like that than "Shadowknight, Shadowknight, another Shadowknight".  But there are a rare few NPCs that are undead paladins.  (EQ1's Lucan D'Lere, fallen tho he is, and supposedly powerless, WILL cast paladin spells and Lay on Hands for example, even after he's killed and respawns as his skeleton form.  Still casts, and lays hands.  Even though he's a warrior by class (or at least one of the warrior trainers))</p><p>Afterall you've never heard the concept of a "hunter of my own kind"?</p></blockquote><p>The whole point of using Befallen and Storm Hold as examples is to illustrate that being a Paladin doesn't prevent you from becomming undead. Also undead paladin doesn't equate to shadowknight. Why would a now undead paladin suddenly not have access to his former powers and gain shadowknight powers instead? That makes about as much sense as undead rangers suddenly loosing 80% of their bow abilities but learning every assassin trick.</p><p>As for Lucan D'Lere...who says he is undead? We're not quite sure what he is. Undeath might explain it, particularly if he is a lich but that might not be the case. If he is a lich, not only is he the only non-caster lich on Norrath but he's also the only one that bothers keeping the apperance of a living body. Too many unknowns about Lucan to draw an absolute conclusion.</p>

[Garnaf]

<p><cite>Meirril wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Dranikos@Butcherblock wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>The default oaths of a paladin in D&D (yes, I know it's a different rule set, but the whole idea of a paladin in EQ1 came from there, and the idea of Lucan being a fallen one, so it has merit) are about respecting Legitimate authority, always doing the right thing, and opposing evil where you find it.  There's nothing in the paladin oath that says "oh, and you can't be undead".</p><p>It's unusual to find undead that care overly much for the morals of the living, but they DO exist, and they CAN be paladins.  For the mobs in stormhold, this is pretty much just so there's more variety to "evil" crusader mobs like that than "Shadowknight, Shadowknight, another Shadowknight".  But there are a rare few NPCs that are undead paladins.  (EQ1's Lucan D'Lere, fallen tho he is, and supposedly powerless, WILL cast paladin spells and Lay on Hands for example, even after he's killed and respawns as his skeleton form.  Still casts, and lays hands.  Even though he's a warrior by class (or at least one of the warrior trainers))</p><p>Afterall you've never heard the concept of a "hunter of my own kind"?</p></blockquote><p>The whole point of using Befallen and Storm Hold as examples is to illustrate that being a Paladin doesn't prevent you from becomming undead. Also undead paladin doesn't equate to shadowknight. Why would a now undead paladin suddenly not have access to his former powers and gain shadowknight powers instead? That makes about as much sense as undead rangers suddenly loosing 80% of their bow abilities but learning every assassin trick.</p><p>As for Lucan D'Lere...who says he is undead? We're not quite sure what he is. Undeath might explain it, particularly if he is a lich but that might not be the case. If he is a lich, not only is he the only non-caster lich on Norrath but he's also the only one that bothers keeping the apperance of a living body. Too many unknowns about Lucan to draw an absolute conclusion.</p></blockquote><p>Lucan D'Lere IS undead in EQ1, long before the split of the timeline.  Paladins had to kill him for Soulfire (itself part of their 1.0 Epic weapon)  He fights you twice, once as Lucan D'Lere the Warrior Class Trainer and Leader of the Militia (Killing him is the single largest faction hit in EQ1 actually, taking you from "Cannot Get Any Better" Max Ally to "Cannot Get Any Worse" Max KOS in a single kill).  After you kill him as such (he Lays Hands at low HP) he stands back up as his own skeleton, saying something about how he died a long time ago. (This Skeleton DOES register as undead for anti-undead spells and Slay Undead Paladin AAs).  Skeleton D'Lere also lays hands! (and comes with a second copy of the unholy huge faction hit.  Seriously overkill)</p>

[Brienae]

<p>I think where part of the idea comes from that Paladin are against undead is from dnd but it's nothing to do with the oath.</p><p>Healing spells are positive energy where as undead are created using negative energy.  A spell of positive energy will harm an undead in dnd.  It is often assumed that negative energy is evil and positive energy is good. </p><p>Thought just occurred to me can you imagine if they somehow they had it so Freeblood could not be healed or heals actually hurt them? Lol I can see it now:</p><p>Scout: Wow the tank died again what gives?</p><p>Healer: I don't know I was healing my tail off</p><p>Freeblood tank: Stop healing me!</p><p>I think it all comes down to how you percieve your character.  If your Paladin believes that the Freeblood must be destroyed go for it.  Maybe your Freeblood Paladin is in pain every time they heal someone but yet they keep their faith. </p><p>I made my Freeblood a Dirge.</p>

[Troubor]

<p><cite>Cusashorn wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Sigrdrifa@Lucan DLere wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Aneova@Kithicor wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I do believe Lucan D'Lere is a Paladin still despite being a Lich.</p></blockquote><p>Lucan D'Lere has paladin buffs.</p></blockquote><p>His *STATUE* has a paladin buff. That doesn't mean that he does, and even if he does, that doesn't automatically mean he's still a paladin just because the game mechanics say so.</p></blockquote><p>QFT, I think Antonia Bayle's statues have Illusionist buffs.  I don't know if she's been noted to have any specific class though.</p><p>As an aside, the Commandant giant in the solo version of Iceshard Keep (The one used for the solo DoV shard quest) will cast one or two paladin spells if memory serves, although I think he usually has berserker buffs.  Unless Rallos Zek has paladins in his service, I seriously doubt a giant in command of the solo Iceshard keep is a paladin though.</p>

[Zabjade]

<p><span style="color: #00cc00;">To protect the people from the Capriciousness of the godlings. <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></span></p>

[Lempo]

<p>As long as someone was willing to pay the station cash for the race and to unlock the flying ability the implications of an undead Paladin were a non-issue.</p>

[Cusashorn]

<p><cite>Dranikos@Butcherblock wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Meirril wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Dranikos@Butcherblock wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>The default oaths of a paladin in D&D (yes, I know it's a different rule set, but the whole idea of a paladin in EQ1 came from there, and the idea of Lucan being a fallen one, so it has merit) are about respecting Legitimate authority, always doing the right thing, and opposing evil where you find it.  There's nothing in the paladin oath that says "oh, and you can't be undead".</p><p>It's unusual to find undead that care overly much for the morals of the living, but they DO exist, and they CAN be paladins.  For the mobs in stormhold, this is pretty much just so there's more variety to "evil" crusader mobs like that than "Shadowknight, Shadowknight, another Shadowknight".  But there are a rare few NPCs that are undead paladins.  (EQ1's Lucan D'Lere, fallen tho he is, and supposedly powerless, WILL cast paladin spells and Lay on Hands for example, even after he's killed and respawns as his skeleton form.  Still casts, and lays hands.  Even though he's a warrior by class (or at least one of the warrior trainers))</p><p>Afterall you've never heard the concept of a "hunter of my own kind"?</p></blockquote><p>The whole point of using Befallen and Storm Hold as examples is to illustrate that being a Paladin doesn't prevent you from becomming undead. Also undead paladin doesn't equate to shadowknight. Why would a now undead paladin suddenly not have access to his former powers and gain shadowknight powers instead? That makes about as much sense as undead rangers suddenly loosing 80% of their bow abilities but learning every assassin trick.</p><p>As for Lucan D'Lere...who says he is undead? We're not quite sure what he is. Undeath might explain it, particularly if he is a lich but that might not be the case. If he is a lich, not only is he the only non-caster lich on Norrath but he's also the only one that bothers keeping the apperance of a living body. Too many unknowns about Lucan to draw an absolute conclusion.</p></blockquote><p>Lucan D'Lere IS undead in EQ1, long before the split of the timeline.  Paladins had to kill him for Soulfire (itself part of their 1.0 Epic weapon)  He fights you twice, once as Lucan D'Lere the Warrior Class Trainer and Leader of the Militia (Killing him is the single largest faction hit in EQ1 actually, taking you from "Cannot Get Any Better" Max Ally to "Cannot Get Any Worse" Max KOS in a single kill).  After you kill him as such (he Lays Hands at low HP) he stands back up as his own skeleton, saying something about how he died a long time ago. (This Skeleton DOES register as undead for anti-undead spells and Slay Undead Paladin AAs).  Skeleton D'Lere also lays hands! (and comes with a second copy of the unholy huge faction hit.  Seriously overkill)</p></blockquote><p>Yeah it's been a known fact for quite a long time that Lucan has always been an undead Lich. When EQ2 started, his profile page made no attempt to hide it.</p><p>Anyways, going back to the DND thing, Vampires who were turned against their will are examples of those who can become paladins, because while the Awaken Undead spell TECHNICALLY creates an undead servant who has no memories of his past life, it would be possible for it to learn right from wrong, but both the spell and the person who cast it are evil, so the minion probably will be as well. Unwillingly turned vampires have no obligations to remain evil. The Freeblood are lucky, however, that EQ2 doesn't take the "Negative/Positive energy" thing from D&D, meaning healing spells hurt the undead. A freeblood Paladin would harm themselves with Lay On Hands otherwise.</p><p>It all comes down strictly to moral and roleplaying obligations, which, as mentioned above, were thrown completely out the window when a Vampire race was introduced strictly through station cash.</p>

[Brienae]

<p>Not all people who have Freebloods paid for them.  I waited for the winter reward to get mine.  Of course I have no added perks like the bats but oh well. </p>

[Meirril]

<p><cite>Brienae@Lucan DLere wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I think where part of the idea comes from that Paladin are against undead is from dnd but it's nothing to do with the oath.</p><p>Healing spells are positive energy where as undead are created using negative energy.  A spell of positive energy will harm an undead in dnd.  It is often assumed that negative energy is evil and positive energy is good. </p><p>Thought just occurred to me can you imagine if they somehow they had it so Freeblood could not be healed or heals actually hurt them? Lol I can see it now:</p><p>Scout: Wow the tank died again what gives?</p><p>Healer: I don't know I was healing my tail off</p><p>Freeblood tank: Stop healing me!</p><p>I think it all comes down to how you percieve your character.  If your Paladin believes that the Freeblood must be destroyed go for it.  Maybe your Freeblood Paladin is in pain every time they heal someone but yet they keep their faith. </p><p>I made my Freeblood a Dirge.</p></blockquote><p>If you look at EQ1 Paladins (and Clerics) they have anti-undead spells and anti-undead procs. Both classes perfer to solo against undead because of these special abilities. Even in EQ2 Paladins have an AA line that gives them an anti-evil spell that always hits undead.</p><p>Now the entire idea that there are positive and negative energies is entirely a D&D/Gygax thing. If you have a spell that stiches back together flesh and bone, why wouldn't it work equally well on the undead as the living? Or to put it another way, if healing spells work on every race in EQ2, and conjuror pets (your healing Air? Water? Rocks?) why wouldn't it work on the undead?</p><p>Now there is a vauge reason to believe in negative energy, but not like in D&D. Corpses in EQ2 tend to rise from the dead. This seems to be associated with the use of a lot of magical energy, not just necromancy! I think this is best explained by the Ewer of Sul'dae being used to unleash the curse of undeath causing spontanious undeath where ever a lot of uncontrolled magical energy accumulates. So it isn't negative energy per se, but magical energy seeking a way to be used and finding a convient corpse. In less corpse ridden areas rocks tend to get animated. How else do you explain all the wild animated rocks in the game?</p>

[DeBasilisk]

<p>I always figured animated rocks were earth elementals or something.</p>