Can we have our Crit Heals back now? [Archive]

The_Cheeseman

06-24-2011, 05:37 AM

<cite>Lethe5683 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>TheGeneral wrote:</cite><blockquote>Now that players have so many more hit points and the critical chance we have to obtain in order to crit well on raids and instances I think it might be time to consider giving fighters their crit heals back. With the way things are now, any fighter heal with no crit now is pretty weak and in most cases non-existant. Ability mod has been lowered significantly as well. ... so what are the chances of us maybe ... possibly... PLEASE, having our crit heals back?</blockquote>No, thats the way it should be. Any fighter other than perhaps paladins should not be able to significantly heal themselves.</blockquote>You keep using this word, "should." Why, exactly, "should" this be the case? If monks were not intended to be able to heal, why do I have a class ability that heals 60-80% of the target's HP every minute and a half? Granted, making Mend crit would be fairly pointless, since it is usually a full heal anyway, but your argument is totally baseless and contradicts the very design of several fighter classes from day 1.A fighter's role is to direct incoming damage toward themselves and mitigate as much of that damage as they can. Reducing the damage we take is only part of that mitigation, the rest of it involves healing ourselves. If fighters were not meant to be able to heal ourselves, why do most fighters have class abilities that do so?Removing critical heals from all fighters was a stop-gap measure and should absolutely not be allowed to remain indefinitely. The main issue I see is that some abilities are merely good in the pre-70 levels when you don't have significant crit%, but then far too powerful once your crit% and crit bonus skyrocket due to the grossly mudflated stats on T9 gear. Such abilities should probably remain non-crit, but I see no particular reason to remove crits from straightforward heal abilities like Paladins have, and which could be balanced for all levels of crit%.

Lethe5683

06-24-2011, 05:40 AM

<cite>The_Cheeseman wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Lethe5683 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>TheGeneral wrote:</cite><blockquote>Now that players have so many more hit points and the critical chance we have to obtain in order to crit well on raids and instances I think it might be time to consider giving fighters their crit heals back. With the way things are now, any fighter heal with no crit now is pretty weak and in most cases non-existant. Ability mod has been lowered significantly as well. ... so what are the chances of us maybe ... possibly... PLEASE, having our crit heals back?</blockquote>No, thats the way it should be. Any fighter other than perhaps paladins should not be able to significantly heal themselves.</blockquote>You keep using this word, "should." Why, exactly, "should" this be the case? If monks were not intended to be able to heal, why do I have a class ability that heals 60-80% of the target's HP every minute and a half? Granted, making Mend crit would be fairly pointless, since it is usually a full heal anyway, but your argument is totally baseless and contradicts the very design of several fighter classes from day 1.A fighter's role is to direct incoming damage toward themselves and mitigate as much of that damage as they can. Reducing the damage we take is only part of that mitigation, the rest of it involves healing ourselves. If fighters were not meant to be able to heal ourselves, why do most fighters have class abilities that do so?Removing critical heals from all fighters was a stop-gap measure and should absolutely not be allowed to remain indefinitely. The main issue I see is that some abilities are merely good in the pre-70 levels when you don't have significant crit%, but then far too powerful once your crit% and crit bonus skyrocket due to the grossly mudflated stats on T9 gear. Such abilities should probably remain non-crit, but I see no particular reason to remove crits from straightforward heal abilities like Paladins have, and which could be balanced for all levels of crit%.</blockquote>I never said fighters shouldn't be able to heal, fighters can and should be able to heal but not much. Allowing fighter heals to crit again would make them incredibly overpowered in their ability to heal themselves.

Odys

06-24-2011, 06:52 AM

A paladin self heal can currently be somewhere in the 20-35 000, allowing that to crit would be overkill. My 53 paladin is a real monster, he does not need anything but may be a nerf.

feldon30

06-24-2011, 09:02 AM

<cite>Twinbladed@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>Your a tank, your made to take damage,not heal</blockquote><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paladin_%28character_class%29" target="_blank">Paladin class definition from Dungeons & Dragons first published in 1974: </a> <blockquote>The paladin is a holy knight, crusading in the name of good and order, and is a divine spell caster. The paladin is a champion of justice and destroyer of evil protected and strengthened by an array of divine powers. Most of these powers relate to providing benefits to those around the paladin. These include healing and curing of disease, morale in combat and turning of undead. Most of the abilities are similar to but of a lower level than the cleric's abilities.</blockquote>If you are just going to roll all Fighters into Taunting and Taking Hits, then you might as well delete the 6 and just have 1 "Fighter" class.

TheGeneral

06-24-2011, 10:45 AM

Speaking of class descriptions, lets take a look at the class write ups on the official Sony website...Shadowknight:Shadowknights are malevolent crusaders who wreak fear, hate and despair upon all who would oppose them. In addition to their formidable martial art skills, Shadowknights conjure dark magic with which they can enhance their abilities and drain away the life force of their enemies.Paladin:The epitome of honor and valor, Paladins excel in martial combat while employing divine magic to enhance their abilities and strike down their enemies. By invoking both protective and healing magic, the Paladin can often survive battles that would crumble those of lesser resolve.NOT All tanks are the same. Those heals, lifetaps, and self heals the brawlers have are how we are supposed to balance ourselves against the tanks who simply mitigate the dmg better.

Wasuna

06-24-2011, 11:03 AM

I'm a fighter.I don't have any heals.What do you offer me?I do have stoneskins which are real handy for fights that have annonced rituals but other than that I can not do half the stuff that the fighters will heals (that do not crit) can currently do.Lets focus this back on what your really talking about. Crusaders want critical heals back. Brawlers wouldn't complain but it wouldn't be all that much of a difdference to them.Now you can answer the real question?WHY?Becasue you'd like them to is not an answer. Becasue you'd perform better is not an answer. You need to explain why this mechanism is making your sub-class lesser than the rest of the fighters. Probably 75%+ of the time your heals do more than my stoneskins do so I'm not really going to be all the sympathetic but then I make NO decisions for SoE so you shouldn't really care.

Elskidor

06-24-2011, 11:10 AM

Tank heals should be significanty weaker than others. They should not be made to crit heal ever. Their silly dps needs removing altogether. A tank should be nearly crippled without a healer. As they stand they are overpowered jokes that can solo far better than nearly every other class because of their ability to heal and dps and survive without a healer. I have an SK and I loathe playing it because of the mess tanks are in this game. EQ2 has gone stupid insane on most classes. Healers are just as screwed as tanks. All healers dpsing? That's as dumb as the tanks dps. Let the battle healers do battle but nerf their ability to heal as good as a real healer class. What the hell are tanks complaining about not being able to crit heal for?

TheGeneral

06-24-2011, 11:35 AM

This is kinda sad actually. I see nothing but jealously and hate for other classes here. "I can't do it, so you shouldn't be able to." It just bothers me that such a heavy handed change to all fighters is so openly accepted.I wonder if it would be just as easily accepted if they took crits away from all utility classes too.I never wanted things to go back to being all crazy over powered. I just think the right fix would have been to adjust the heals so that crits would still mean something. I will let it go though. I've said my piece.

Silzin

06-24-2011, 12:10 PM

<cite>Elskidor wrote:</cite><blockquote>Tank heals should be significanty weaker than others. They should not be made to crit heal ever. Their silly dps needs removing altogether. A tank should be nearly crippled without a healer. As they stand they are overpowered jokes that can solo far better than nearly every other class because of their ability to heal and dps and survive without a healer. I have an SK and I loathe playing it because of the mess tanks are in this game. EQ2 has gone stupid insane on most classes. Healers are just as screwed as tanks. All healers dpsing? That's as dumb as the tanks dps. Let the battle healers do battle but nerf their ability to heal as good as a real healer class. What the hell are tanks complaining about not being able to crit heal for? </blockquote>At the moment most healer classes have a very hard time soloing at any reasonable speed the solo quests in [Removed for Content] and EW. A change like this would make playing a healer SO boring that healers would be even more rear then they are know. Try to take all dps and healing from tanks would be just a crippling to the game as well. Ever Quest 2 is a game that we all are supposed to have fun playing. If there is a problem with a class that makes it so much more powerful then the other classes that it makes the other classes obsolete or other wise require THAT class to do there, then it needs to be looked into. Like wise if there is a class that cant fulfill the requirements of the archetype or have require better gear then the content gives to fulfill there roll in that content, then that class need to be looked into. I think most classes can fulfill their archetype roll and non-are particularly over powered. After these things are established then we can get into specifics, like should fighter heals still be restricted from critting. The crit mechanic is in place to allow abilities to scale together. The dives have made very specific abilities not crit in the past, like bard VC, and they have has good reason for this in each case. Even originally when fighter heals where nurfed by removing there abilities from critting the divs had a good reason for doing it. I think, and so do others here, that the way they did it was over don and dose not scale properly with content. Every time an exception from a role like this is made that exception is something special. They way that exception is implemented can be very good or bad. In the example of the shaman wards not critting right that is a good exception for the time it was made and should probably be looked into and reevaluated. Just like the shaman wards not scaling the fighter heals need to be re reevaluated and a long-term solution needs to be implemented, even if its the ½ of CB.

Wurm

06-24-2011, 12:11 PM

If you didn't expect people like Wasuna to come in here and complain about Crusaders or people like Lethe5683 talking like they have the Dev team in their back-pockets you haven't been around the forums for a long time. You also have people like Elskidor using the good old straw-man method of "I have one but I hate it since its soooo overpowered."Its been this way since the game came out. People get jealous of what other classes can do and come in here and whine and moan until they get that class nerfed. Misery loves company in the MMO world.And for the record I'm OK with my Paladin heals as they are without the crits, all except the group one. Without criting it does so little healing in regards to the inflated health pools we all now have, that most of the time I cast it, I hardly notice my group members health bar move.If they aren't going to give us heal crit back, then they at least need to adjust that one heal's values upwards by a large amount.The only thing that really makes me mad about the removal of the heal crit is all the adornments that use heal crit to proc. Some of which I wouldn't mind using but won't due to that fact.

The_Cheeseman

06-25-2011, 02:27 AM

The main reason I am concerned about the lack of fighter heal crits is that it doesn't mesh well with the rest of the game. When a new player is considering making a new character, he may not know that fighters are the only archetype whose heal spells do not crit. He may not even learn this until he is heavily invested in the character. This isn't fair to him, as he was simply going on the assumption that every class's abilities follow the same rules. Maybe this isn't the most valid reason to dislike the fighter crit nerf, but as a long time game-design tinkerer, I prefer streamlined, elegant mechanics over kludgy band-aid patches.Secondly, in the case of crusaders, I am concerned about heals scaling over the long term. It may not be a serious issue now, but as the game progresses and the importance of the crit mechanics grows (it's undeniable that critical hits have become a vital mechanic in EQ2 with Velious) these abilities will need to be addressed. In my opinion, the fact that it doesn't affect me as a brawler is not sufficient justification to remain silent on the issue. Everybody deserves their toys.

Hamervelder

06-25-2011, 03:35 AM

<cite>Gorock@Storms wrote:</cite><blockquote>A paladin self heal can currently be somewhere in the 20-35 000, allowing that to crit would be overkill. My 53 paladin is a real monster, he does not need anything but may be a nerf.</blockquote>At level 53, you have yet to experience most of the game on your paladin. Get to 90 and start doing instances, then tell us if you think your paladins need a nerf.

Lethe5683

06-25-2011, 03:48 AM

<cite>TheGeneral wrote:</cite><blockquote>NOT All tanks are the same. Those heals, lifetaps, and self heals the brawlers have are how we are supposed to balance ourselves against the tanks who simply mitigate the dmg better.</blockquote>And they already do that. Allowing them to crit again will only leed to the same overpoweredness of SKs and paladins as we had pre crit nerf.

The_Cheeseman

06-25-2011, 05:37 AM

<cite>Lethe5683 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>TheGeneral wrote:</cite><blockquote>NOT All tanks are the same. Those heals, lifetaps, and self heals the brawlers have are how we are supposed to balance ourselves against the tanks who simply mitigate the dmg better.</blockquote>And they already do that. Allowing them to crit again will only leed to the same overpoweredness of SKs and paladins as we had pre crit nerf.</blockquote>I don't think anybody is asking for a straight roll-back fo the crit nerf. I'd prefer a re-balancing of crusader heals to a form in which crits would not be overpowered, and I believe that is what most rational people would expect.

Lethe5683

06-25-2011, 09:35 AM

<cite>The_Cheeseman wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Lethe5683 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>TheGeneral wrote:</cite><blockquote>NOT All tanks are the same. Those heals, lifetaps, and self heals the brawlers have are how we are supposed to balance ourselves against the tanks who simply mitigate the dmg better.</blockquote>And they already do that. Allowing them to crit again will only leed to the same overpoweredness of SKs and paladins as we had pre crit nerf.</blockquote>I don't think anybody is asking for a straight roll-back fo the crit nerf. I'd prefer a re-balancing of crusader heals to a form in which crits would not be overpowered, and I believe that is what most rational people would expect.</blockquote>That's not what the OP appears to be asking for.

Odys

06-25-2011, 11:48 AM

<cite>Elhonas@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Gorock@Storms wrote:</cite><blockquote>A paladin self heal can currently be somewhere in the 20-35 000, allowing that to crit would be overkill. My 53 paladin is a real monster, he does not need anything but may be a nerf.</blockquote>At level 53, you have yet to experience most of the game on your paladin. Get to 90 and start doing instances, then tell us if you think your paladins need a nerf.</blockquote>My warden can solo lot of trash mobs and may be easy named (xalgoti, icefang). My paladin is 2-3 times stronger than my warden was (at the same level). From that i conclude that a 90 paladin can certainly solo much harder things than my warden.He will take 5 times less damage, will do higher dps (due to massive MA), and his healing is not bad at all.I would not be surprised if a well geared paladin (rygor, x2, piece of EM) was able to solo most of ascent.The only issue i see is mana regen, Sk do have a "mana net" i wonder if T9 paladins have any mana regen.

Maikeruu

06-25-2011, 10:38 PM

At the very least Paladins should be able to heal others effectively and pretty much every argument against Fighters healing is about them soloing. While I would like to see the base heal amounts of some spells looked at, the easiest thing to do may be just have "Fighter heals do not critical when applied to the caster" as a compromise. That gives Fighters a bit more group or raid value without the solo benefit that has people concerned.

Odys

06-25-2011, 11:51 PM

<cite>Maikeruu wrote:</cite><blockquote>At the very least Paladins should be able to heal others effectively and pretty much every argument against Fighters healing is about them soloing. While I would like to see the base heal amounts of some spells looked at, the easiest thing to do may be just have "Fighter heals do not critical when applied to the caster" as a compromise. That gives Fighters a bit more group or raid value without the solo benefit that has people concerned.</blockquote>With a paladin in a raid/group you get already +8% (or may be 10?) on the heals. Your idea is anyway sort of interesting but probably too complicated. One of the main paladin heal is self only. Allowing other to crit would probably be a resonnable soltuion. But honnestly paladins do quite fine, even if guardian are ideal to face extreme beating.

Ryai

06-26-2011, 02:19 AM

Crit heals are unnecessary. Half the classes don't care at all because it was essential. Paladins got rebalanced and do just fine now. At most zerkers may need a similar treatment of value adjustments. SKs... Really don't need more. If you need more self healing for some reason, go get gear and itemize for it. Lots of adorn choices there, as well as lots of sf gear. Tldr: The game has moved on and is better for it.

Maikeruu

06-26-2011, 06:32 AM

<cite>Gorock@Storms wrote:</cite><blockquote>With a paladin in a raid/group you get already +8% (or may be 10?) on the heals. Your idea is anyway sort of interesting but probably too complicated. One of the main paladin heal is self only. Allowing other to crit would probably be a resonnable soltuion. But honnestly paladins do quite fine, even if guardian are ideal to face extreme beating.</blockquote>The coding more or less already exists and has often been used to prevent buffs from being cast on yourself or certain classes, so I don't think this would be overly difficult. It addresses both the concerns of people that don't want to see Fighters having an easier time of soloing and the Fighters wanting to be of more benefit to groups and raids with the spells. Combine this with examining the heal amount on the spells themselves, to confirm they are appropriately balanced for Velious content, and I think most people would be moderately satisfied.

Talathion

06-29-2011, 07:14 PM

Take away heal crits from mages/scouts.Take away spell/melee crits from healers.How about that?

Talathion

06-29-2011, 07:18 PM

They need to lower the paladin heals back a bit, then add healing criticals.SK lifetaps need to crit, they suck atm.Brawlers need they're heals scaled back if they crit, they are rediculous.Done.

Gungo

06-29-2011, 07:32 PM

The brawlers heals dont matter they are % based even if they do crit or dont they are nearly a complete heal with potency.Fighters dont need heal crit, what a few fighters need, namely zerkers and shadowknights is few tweaks to one or two abilites.But they could also just give crit heals back and SCALE the new heal values to whats appropriate. Eitherway it doesnt matter as long as the final product is basically the same healing ability we have now.

Talathion

06-29-2011, 07:54 PM

<cite>Gungo@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote>The brawlers heals dont matter they are % based even if they do crit or dont they are nearly a complete heal with potency.Fighters dont need heal crit, what a few fighters need, namely zerkers and shadowknights is few tweaks to one or two abilites.But they could also just give crit heals back and SCALE the new heal values to whats appropriate. Eitherway it doesnt matter as long as the final product is basically the same healing ability we have now.</blockquote>honestly, berserkers healing abilitys were low because they were "MADE for being critical heals", so were SKs.We are behind because of this, honestly, Sk isn't that OP anymore high end as they used to be in SF/TSO.I have a 400 point ward, if it crit it would be 800, not a big deal.I have a 1000 point heal, if it crit it would be 2000, still not that big of a deal.SKs, I can't speak for them, but only 30% of their healing is from Lifetaps, and the rest from reaver, and its very low, like 900 HPS.

Crismorn

06-29-2011, 08:00 PM

How bout they just remove heal crits from all classes except preists and leave preists spell/heal/melee crit as is since we gain no heal benefit from Wisdom, sounds like a good trade imo.Either that or give fighters back their heal crits, leave all the other crits as is and just remove the stat mod benefit ie. str/agi/int increasing base dmg so everyone can be equal.Sounds great to me, how bout you?

Talathion

06-29-2011, 08:18 PM

<cite>Crismorn wrote:</cite><blockquote>How bout they just remove heal crits from all classes except preists and leave preists spell/heal/melee crit as is since we gain no heal benefit from Wisdom, sounds like a good trade imo.Either that or give fighters back their heal crits, leave all the other crits as is and just remove the stat mod benefit ie. str/agi/int increasing base dmg so everyone can be equal.Sounds great to me, how bout you?</blockquote>sounds good to me, I play a shaman myself.

Lethe5683

06-30-2011, 12:39 AM

<cite>Talathion@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>Take away heal crits from mages/scouts.Take away spell/melee crits from healers.How about that?</blockquote>Hell no, that would ruin healers and mages/scouts get so little healing ability it doesn't even matter and most scout heals don't crit as it is. <cite>Talathion@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite> <blockquote>They need to lower the paladin heals back a bit, then add healing criticals.SK lifetaps need to crit, they suck atm.Brawlers need they're heals scaled back if they crit, they are rediculous.Done.</blockquote> SK lifetaps are supposed to suck, they were insanly OP before. Brawlers heals already do pretty much max hp on a long recast time so it doesn't matter if they crit. <cite>Crismorn wrote:</cite> <blockquote>How bout they just remove heal crits from all classes except preists and leave preists spell/heal/melee crit as is since we gain no heal benefit from Wisdom, sounds like a good trade imo.Either that or give fighters back their heal crits, leave all the other crits as is and just remove the stat mod benefit ie. str/agi/int increasing base dmg so everyone can be equal.Sounds great to me, how bout you?</blockquote> Only if they fix poisons so that the amount the lifetap poisons heal for is increased with potency and ability mod.

Hamervelder

06-30-2011, 02:14 AM

<cite>Gorock@Storms wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Elhonas@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Gorock@Storms wrote:</cite><blockquote>A paladin self heal can currently be somewhere in the 20-35 000, allowing that to crit would be overkill. My 53 paladin is a real monster, he does not need anything but may be a nerf.</blockquote>At level 53, you have yet to experience most of the game on your paladin. Get to 90 and start doing instances, then tell us if you think your paladins need a nerf.</blockquote>My warden can solo lot of trash mobs and may be easy named (xalgoti, icefang). My paladin is 2-3 times stronger than my warden was (at the same level). From that i conclude that a 90 paladin can certainly solo much harder things than my warden.He will take 5 times less damage, will do higher dps (due to massive MA), and his healing is not bad at all.I would not be surprised if a well geared paladin (rygor, x2, piece of EM) was able to solo most of ascent.The only issue i see is mana regen, Sk do have a "mana net" i wonder if T9 paladins have any mana regen.</blockquote>I wouldn't be surprised if a well-geared anyone can solo most of Ascent. Hell, my warden can do it. He can also solo most of Shadowed Corridors, up to the cooking mob (whose name I forget) and most of Pools, up to the worm. My paladin and warden are pretty equally geared, with the warden having a slight edge on jewelry, and he's absolutely a better soloer than the paladin. There are myriad reasons for that, not the least of which is that there is absolutely no comparison between a paladin's healing ability, and a warden's healing ability.

Boli32

06-30-2011, 06:39 AM

First of all the ability to solo things does not make it a viable time investment - last expansion I could solo the 2 sisters in SoH - but I did so so rarely as my final kill took me just over one HOUR; not including dieing and needing to restart.This is mainly due to the fact players in general have improved in their ability to deal damage, take damage and heal said damage; and unless you purposefully "[Removed for Content]" players if they do older content, or scale up older content to match the difficultly of newer you are always goign to find players who return to there in their down time and play "lets see how far I can get".I remember back in EoF my fury could solo the nest and poets palace - it was rough took me a good while and I died a few times but I felt a great sense of satisfaction when I did it. Should I have been nerfed because JoeMage could not get past the second named in there afterall he's playing the same game as I am he should be allowed th same sense of accompliment.So my class is nerfed to the same level as JoeMage in soloing this zone. But BobScout wants in on the same action he's only got to max level yesterday and he's still got some isel of refuge armour on but since he cannot solo even the first named he's going to demand no-one can solo it and you need a group to do so.This sort of knee jerk reaction to OMG he can solo "xxxx" NERF!!!! serves no-one as you just have to remember that you know what... some classes solo better than others - how about we just leave it at that and unless you put some sevear restrictions on the entry into zones and force people into groups you are *always* going to get someone trying their luck to see how far they can solo.As to crit healing:Paladins have :3 lifetaps4 Direct Heals2 Regenerating wards1 Reactive heal1 WardAll of which do not crit; that's an entire hotbar of none critting abilities.There is moaning about how some of those healing abilities are simply "too big"... well since they were scaled a the single target heal is to big outside of the new expansion. If you were in KoS/EoF level and gear and 20% crits if at all... even a none crit none even the smallest paladin heal is bascially a full heal. Yet once you scale up the health increases and more importantly the damage increases the heal seems more in-line.If health was to increase significantly in ther next expansion these heals will have to be adjusted again as they do not scale as well as eveything else; allowing them to crit and balance them against critting at higher levels and not at lower shoudl have been the plan from day 1. Right now we have a hodge poodge of heals some useful, some not but with no real plan.If you wish to scale an ability to heal for "200" adjust it down and allow it to crit again for the same amount. This will mean it will scale from level 1 to level 90 from scrub treaured gear to DoV HM Fabled.As for the orginal comment about why they had to turn off crits before... this was because heals scaled but other abilities avialble to fighters did not - such as +1500 mitigation buffs. Well that's a lie increasing your defensive abilities and stoneskins *do* scale. taking 5% less damage due to increased mitigation scales quite well from level 1 to level 90; and stoneskins can block a number of hits from levbel 1 to level 90.The issue was never with fighter heals critting... but with the mitigation on such deminishing returns it became unviable to increase past a certain point. If anything those abilities should have been adjusted.Fighters ALL fighters are designed to take less damage than other classes. Raid fighters are designed to take the least damage of all. After you reach a certain point instances become soloable... simply because generic item heal procs or heal spell in terms of hps do mor than the incoming damage.This is true for ALL classes, it is just reached that much easier with fighters and healers. Healers as they have more hps and fighters because they need less.

Controlor

06-30-2011, 08:08 AM

<cite>Cyan@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>Crit heals are unnecessary. Half the classes don't care at all because it was essential. Paladins got rebalanced and do just fine now. At most zerkers may need a similar treatment of value adjustments. SKs... Really don't need more. If you need more self healing for some reason, go get gear and itemize for it. Lots of adorn choices there, as well as lots of sf gear. Tldr: The game has moved on and is better for it.</blockquote>^^^ This.Except i would argue that Sk's life taps need to be adjusted as well. Most of their taps do not scale well for this content to help offset any damage done. That coupled with the fact that in raid content they really cant be used to offset that much damage hurts. The vast majority of the SK's lifetaps go wasted due to wards and other healers keeping them at full.

Talathion

06-30-2011, 11:27 AM

How about we make everything critical hit like it was intended?

gatrm

06-30-2011, 12:07 PM

When the heal crit nerf originally occured, I expected my SK's soloing ability to be nerfed significantly, afterall, by this point in SF, my life taps had been criting at near 100% for 3-4 expansions, and I fully expected it to hurt a lot worse than it did. After the nerf, I was still able to solo the same stuff, just slightly less efficiently. Soloing is the only area in the game where an SK's lifetaps matter. No fighter ever outhealed a good healer in any content. The only time a fighter ever outhealed a healer was when that healer was focused on dpsing or that healer couldn't find their heal buttons fast enough. Lifetaps do virtually nothing in a raid or group setting when the healer is on the ball. 90% of the healing I do is when I die and bloodletter goes off. This brings another point....The SK mythical buff is absolutely useless. I don't gain hate from heals because when a healer is on the ball, I don't heal. Personally, I don't really care whether heal crits are reinstated for fighters, I don't think it will make much of a difference because an ability that doesn't get used, doesn't matter if it crits. Paladins were designed early on as a holy warrior, combining heals and martial prowess. Paladins used to be able to join groups as backup healers. It may be an odd idea, but there are paladins who are paladins because they are the fighter who can heal. It would make sense for paladins to be able to crit heal, even if the crit portion of the heal can only apply to others. I'm talking mainly from a lore point of view here though, I haven't played a paladin and don't know how they play or how much healing plays into it. I would imagine that it is difficult for them to get heals off while tanking. I know I get interrupted constantly while tanking, and have trouble casting any longish spells. * I do know that early in the life of the game, the abilities for the sk and the pally to lifetap/heal supplimented their mitigation in the same way the warrior temporary mitigation buffs and stoneskins did. They were there to mitigate damage, and where mitigation reduces the incoming damage, and stoneskins prevent the incoming damage, the crusader is still taking more of the incoming damage, even if they are able to heal some of it. Crusaders maybe should have some of the stoneskins/mitigation buffs from other fighters if lifetaps and heal usefulness is eliminated....And normally, I am very supportive of zerkers, however it seems to me that people didn't get into an uproar about fighter heals until zerkers got some ability in SF (before the heal crit) nerf allowing them to completely heal all incoming damage for like 30s or so. - This last bit is just a bit of observation, it doesn't change my opinion that heal crit or no heal crit at least for SK, doesn't affect raiding or grouping, only soloing.

Trensharo

07-02-2011, 07:02 AM

<cite>Gungo@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote>The brawlers heals dont matter they are % based even if they do crit or dont they are nearly a complete heal with potency.Fighters dont need heal crit, what a few fighters need, namely zerkers and shadowknights is few tweaks to one or two abilites.But they could also just give crit heals back and SCALE the new heal values to whats appropriate. Eitherway it doesnt matter as long as the final product is basically the same healing ability we have now.</blockquote>If they did that it would break the game at lower levels where crit values are much lower and players are almost forced to solo to level.However, it would make it much easier to PL on some classes.Also, balancing fighter crit heals are not nearly as easy as you make it seem. Gear form one person to another can vary wildly and they'd still have factors like Crit Bonus and Potency to consider.The only way to balance this would be to make those spells ignore at least Crit Bonus, which just makes it look like a bad hack job.If you're just gonna rebalance it to basically do what it's doing today (whilst destryong it at lower levels where insane levels of crit chance is uncommon), then why bother fiddling with it at all?

Talathion

07-04-2011, 03:08 PM

They are balanced already though. Critical heals were overpowered before because heroic mobs were hitting like children.

Gungo

07-04-2011, 10:42 PM

<cite>Talathion@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Gungo@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote>The brawlers heals dont matter they are % based even if they do crit or dont they are nearly a complete heal with potency.Fighters dont need heal crit, what a few fighters need, namely zerkers and shadowknights is few tweaks to one or two abilites.But they could also just give crit heals back and SCALE the new heal values to whats appropriate. Eitherway it doesnt matter as long as the final product is basically the same healing ability we have now.</blockquote>honestly, berserkers healing abilitys were low because they were "MADE for being critical heals", so were SKs.We are behind because of this, honestly, Sk isn't that OP anymore high end as they used to be in SF/TSO.I have a 400 point ward, if it crit it would be 800, not a big deal.I have a 1000 point heal, if it crit it would be 2000, still not that big of a deal.SKs, I can't speak for them, but only 30% of their healing is from Lifetaps, and the rest from reaver, and its very low, like 900 HPS.</blockquote>Welcome to the world of EQ2 and uncapped crit bonus those numbers you posted are no longer valid since TSO.

Gungo

07-04-2011, 10:44 PM

<cite>Talathion@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>How about we make everything critical hit like it was intended?</blockquote>The game changed and itemization and uncapped stats pretty much ruled that idea as unbalanced.

Talathion

07-05-2011, 12:19 AM

<cite>Gungo@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Talathion@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>How about we make everything critical hit like it was intended?</blockquote>The game changed and itemization and uncapped stats pretty much ruled that idea as unbalanced.</blockquote>Yeah, because a 33% Chance to heal for 2000 is way overpowered.Especially When mobs are hitting me for 59000!This expansion isn't like the last expansion dude, mobs don't hit like little children anymore.

Lethe5683

07-05-2011, 01:00 AM

<cite>Talathion@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Gungo@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Talathion@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>How about we make everything critical hit like it was intended?</blockquote>The game changed and itemization and uncapped stats pretty much ruled that idea as unbalanced.</blockquote>Yeah, because a 33% Chance to heal for 2000 is way overpowered.Especially When mobs are hitting me for 59000!This expansion isn't like the last expansion dude, mobs don't hit like little children anymore.</blockquote>Are you serious? Do you really think it would heal for that little after taking crit bonus into account?

Talathion

07-05-2011, 03:56 PM

a little compared to how much we are getting hit for, Yes.

Lethe5683

07-06-2011, 01:14 AM

<cite>Talathion@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>a little compared to how much we are getting hit for, Yes.</blockquote>No, not really.

Talathion

07-06-2011, 03:27 PM

Looks like someone didn't run Drundar zones.

Lethe5683

07-06-2011, 09:05 PM

<cite>Talathion@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>Looks like someone didn't run Drundar zones.</blockquote>I have. You're a tank, not a healer. You should not be able to significantly heal yourself in the hardest of heroic zones or raids.

Talathion

07-07-2011, 02:42 PM

LOL.Your acting like they hit like children, but they don't dude.Trivilizing raid content? Do you raid at all?

Silzin

07-07-2011, 03:23 PM

Talathion if you are talking hits as you say for 59k after all mitigations and reductions then you have 2 maybe 3 healers on you, and you probably need more Crit Mit. That is since you are not going to be standing for very many of thos hits in a row, it doesn’t better what type of tank you are playing it shouldn’t be able to take hits for equal or more then your Max HP on a regular bases and survive. Your examples are absurd, lets bring it back to reality here. I want fighter heals to crit but to do this you need to use more real examples. Just about non of the brawler abilities would be effected. The Warriors would benefit a little. But the Crusaders would get the most use out of it. SK’s … the non- % based life taps they get would get the biggest benefit. Paly’s … just about all of there heals would benefit. The Div’s have already gone back throw the Paly heals and from the Paly’s I have talked to the only one that is useless is the group heal. But none of them Scale properly to gear, in the opinion of some or most of the people here. Most all of the heals I have touched on are effected by Potency and that is the way the div’s wanted it to be.

Talathion

07-07-2011, 04:55 PM

<cite>Silzin wrote:</cite><blockquote>Talathion if you are talking hits as you say for 59k after all mitigations and reductions then you have 2 maybe 3 healers on you, and you probably need more Crit Mit. That is since you are not going to be standing for very many of thos hits in a row, it doesn’t better what type of tank you are playing it shouldn’t be able to take hits for equal or more then your Max HP on a regular bases and survive. Your examples are absurd, lets bring it back to reality here. I want fighter heals to crit but to do this you need to use more real examples. Just about non of the brawler abilities would be effected. The Warriors would benefit a little. But the Crusaders would get the most use out of it. SK’s … the non- % based life taps they get would get the biggest benefit. Paly’s … just about all of there heals would benefit. The Div’s have already gone back throw the Paly heals and from the Paly’s I have talked to the only one that is useless is the group heal. But none of them Scale properly to gear, in the opinion of some or most of the people here. Most all of the heals I have touched on are effected by Potency and that is the way the div’s wanted it to be. </blockquote>Your Wrong, paladins got there reuse timers doubled.Percent Heals should not be effected by critical.Wrong Again, Berserkers heal when they are hit, while guardians stoneskin when they are hit, its just right now a Stoneskin can counter an entire multi-attack and flurry from happenin, so can avoidance, however, healing when hit does not, this should be balanced.

Silzin

07-07-2011, 05:13 PM

<cite>Talathion@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>Your Wrong, paladins got there reuse timers doubled.</blockquote>I didnt say the heal amount and reuse times wherent changed to reflect the new non crit heal amounts.<cite>Talathion@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>Percent Heals should not be effected by critical.</blockquote>You are corect they shouldnt and I never said they should.SK's reaver i beleave at one time crited and it is a % based life tap, it was very over powered and i dont think we want to see that hapon again for any one.<cite>Talathion@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>Wrong Again, Berserkers heal when they are hit, while guardians stoneskin when they are hit, its just right now a Stoneskin can counter an entire multi-attack and flurry from happenin, so can avoidance, however, healing when hit does not, this should be balanced.</blockquote>I didnt say that Zerkers wouldnt see any benifit. i dont know of any Guard abilities that are not % based heals. i do know of at least 2 zerker heals. 1 is% based and 1 is not. the % baesed one shouldnt crit just like the brawler heals. but the relitivly few heals zerkers get bals into comperison to the heals that Paly's and SK's get. So where was i so wrong?

Felshades

07-07-2011, 05:54 PM

Talathion

07-07-2011, 05:56 PM

its because at low level you would still have 25-40% crit.

Lethe5683

07-07-2011, 06:59 PM

Base heal amount could possibly use a small increase but allowing heal to crit would make crusaders once again insanly overpowered. The healing at the moment is pretty much where it should be; helpfull for soloing but not enough to mostly solo heal themselves through group mobs or make any real difference in raids.

Felshades

07-07-2011, 07:33 PM

<cite>Talathion@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>its because at low level you would still have 25-40% crit.</blockquote>Huh.My SK currently has no crit modifier. Define "low level".

Felshades

07-07-2011, 07:34 PM

<cite>Lethe5683 wrote:</cite><blockquote>Base heal amount could possibly use a small increase but allowing heal to crit would make crusaders once again insanly overpowered. The healing at the moment is pretty much where it should be; helpfull for soloing but not enough to mostly solo heal themselves through group mobs or make any real difference in raids.</blockquote>But it's okay for my mystic to be able to solo heal herself through group mobs?

Lethe5683

07-07-2011, 11:21 PM

<cite>Sakiri@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Lethe5683 wrote:</cite><blockquote>Base heal amount could possibly use a small increase but allowing heal to crit would make crusaders once again insanly overpowered. The healing at the moment is pretty much where it should be; helpfull for soloing but not enough to mostly solo heal themselves through group mobs or make any real difference in raids.</blockquote>But it's okay for my mystic to be able to solo heal herself through group mobs?</blockquote>Of course, it's not like they will be able to do much else other than heal if they are the one taking the hits. Now if you are talking about easy group mobs, well pratically anyone can solo those with decent gear.

Felshades

07-07-2011, 11:26 PM

<cite>Lethe5683 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Sakiri@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Lethe5683 wrote:</cite><blockquote>Base heal amount could possibly use a small increase but allowing heal to crit would make crusaders once again insanly overpowered. The healing at the moment is pretty much where it should be; helpfull for soloing but not enough to mostly solo heal themselves through group mobs or make any real difference in raids.</blockquote>But it's okay for my mystic to be able to solo heal herself through group mobs?</blockquote>Of course, it's not like they will be able to do much else other than heal if they are the one taking the hits. Now if you are talking about easy group mobs, well pratically anyone can solo those with decent gear.</blockquote>They'll still die. Heck, that's how I solo old raid mobs. I heal/ward tank while dogdog bites their butt with auto attack turned on.It still dies. I don't.

Lethe5683

07-07-2011, 11:46 PM

<cite>Sakiri@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Lethe5683 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Sakiri@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Lethe5683 wrote:</cite><blockquote>Base heal amount could possibly use a small increase but allowing heal to crit would make crusaders once again insanly overpowered. The healing at the moment is pretty much where it should be; helpfull for soloing but not enough to mostly solo heal themselves through group mobs or make any real difference in raids.</blockquote>But it's okay for my mystic to be able to solo heal herself through group mobs?</blockquote>Of course, it's not like they will be able to do much else other than heal if they are the one taking the hits. Now if you are talking about easy group mobs, well pratically anyone can solo those with decent gear.</blockquote>They'll still die. Heck, that's how I solo old raid mobs. I heal/ward tank while dogdog bites their butt with auto attack turned on.It still dies. I don't.</blockquote>I'd like to see you solo any significant heroic mob using that tactic.

Talathion

07-09-2011, 06:24 PM

Don't derail... with beast lords comming out I really don't see any reason to keep his closed, we were all designed to crit, if fighter heal crits are too powerful simply lower they're base critical amount (although they are 20% lower already).

Lethe5683

07-09-2011, 06:34 PM

<cite>Talathion@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>Don't derail... with beast lords comming out I really don't see any reason to keep his closed, we were all designed to crit, if fighter heal crits are too powerful simply lower they're base critical amount (although they are 20% lower already).</blockquote>20% lower than what, healers? How do you figure that? And how does beastlord coming out have anything to do with this?

Talathion

07-09-2011, 06:37 PM

<cite>Lethe5683 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Talathion@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>Don't derail... with beast lords comming out I really don't see any reason to keep his closed, we were all designed to crit, if fighter heal crits are too powerful simply lower they're base critical amount (although they are 20% lower already).</blockquote>20% lower than what, healers? How do you figure that? And how does beastlord coming out have anything to do with this?</blockquote>They will have critical healing, and probably be very OP.Fighters Critical Heal Modifier is alot lower then healers.

Lethe5683

07-09-2011, 06:44 PM

<cite>Talathion@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Lethe5683 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Talathion@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>Don't derail... with beast lords comming out I really don't see any reason to keep his closed, we were all designed to crit, if fighter heal crits are too powerful simply lower they're base critical amount (although they are 20% lower already).</blockquote>20% lower than what, healers? How do you figure that? And how does beastlord coming out have anything to do with this?</blockquote>They will have critical healing, and probably be very OP.Fighters Critical Heal Modifier is alot lower then healers.</blockquote>That's pure speculation and I'm guessing you have not played a healer because they do not have a higher base heal crit bonus than fighters.

Prestissimo

07-10-2011, 07:11 AM

Fighter primary stat affects heals. Priest primary stat does not affect heals.Fighters have a 130% base heal crit bonus. Healers have a 130% base heal crit bonus.Where does it seem like fighters do not get plenty more healing than they should really have? There were times when zerkers could get a 50k+ hps parse (of course that was abusing the design, but still possible by no difficult stretch) which obliterated all of the healers combined in a raid. It was also pretty much expected that the MT would top the heal parse or be right up there. That was beyond wrong on every level.Fighters should be able to crit heal, but as it stands, the crit function is just too powerful on those heals because of nature of the stat system and scaling %s. Until healers have scaling heals based on primary stat so the first 80 levels are not what you see in the scroll is what you get period, and until the day comes when priest base heal crit is higher than everyone else (just like dps classes get higher damage base bonuses, and fighters get higher taunts or taunts and damage), absolutely no one should ever be capable of beating the healer on any heal parse under any circumstance.Or perhaps we need to start seeing priests have the ability to mitigate/avoid/stoneskin attacks and hold/snap agro so we can take away a chunk of your job to replace what you took from us.

Lethe5683

07-10-2011, 08:01 AM

<cite>Prestissimo@Butcherblock wrote:</cite><blockquote>Fighter primary stat affects heals. Priest primary stat does not affect heals.Fighters have a 130% base heal crit bonus. Healers have a 130% base heal crit bonus.Where does it seem like fighters do not get plenty more healing than they should really have? There were times when zerkers could get a 50k+ hps parse (of course that was abusing the design, but still possible by no difficult stretch) which obliterated all of the healers combined in a raid. It was also pretty much expected that the MT would top the heal parse or be right up there. That was beyond wrong on every level.Fighters should be able to crit heal, but as it stands, the crit function is just too powerful on those heals because of nature of the stat system and scaling %s. Until healers have scaling heals based on primary stat so the first 80 levels are not what you see in the scroll is what you get period, and until the day comes when priest base heal crit is higher than everyone else (just like dps classes get higher damage base bonuses, and fighters get higher taunts or taunts and damage), absolutely no one should ever be capable of beating the healer on any heal parse under any circumstance.Or perhaps we need to start seeing priests have the ability to mitigate/avoid/stoneskin attacks and hold/snap agro so we can take away a chunk of your job to replace what you took from us.</blockquote>Well said.

Talathion

07-10-2011, 11:47 AM

Wow.. you guys must be playing terrible healers, the only reason they were getting 50k in fights is because FIGHTER heals are PERCENTS.On Cella everyone had 260k Life, Healing for 6% everytime your hit (one of berserkers special abilitys, with a LONG cooldown) would give you about 100k HPS.But seriously, Critical healing is not that bad at all, I play a defiler and I know for a fact before and after the nerfs it really didn't effect the character much at all, you guys think fighters are going to start solo healing raids.Your Paranoid, my Defiler parses 19k HPS, and this is constant, all passive no CD abilitys.Do you even know WHY I want heal criticals? because its balanced!Monks and Brawlers HAVE avoidance (which is huge, they are avoiding almosty 75% of all attacks, this has nothing to do with healing, THIS is why they are the most desirable endgame tank, PLUS they have strikethrough immunity, I wish that showed up on the parse as "Damage after mitigation that would have hit him".Paladins have LOTS of damage reduction and avoidance (Also doesn't show up on the parse, if this showed up on the parse you would be screaming bloody murder).Shadowknights have Lifetaps and Heals, which I believe should critical.Berserkers regenerate they're health when they are hit... to bad its only 1000 HPS now because it doesn't crit, woot! 1000 HPS when we are getting hit for 8k-15k after mitigation, berserkers ALSO have low avoidance, and the only reason our stuff is showing on the parse is because the devs in there grace decided to nerf adrenaline so its not damage reduction.Guardians have a 10%-25% Chance ... to stoneskin everything on top of damage reduction, imagine if that showed up on the parse.If they nerfed healing criticals, why didn't they nerf the abilitys to completely avoid damage as well? Do you fathom what would happen if you actually parsed how much stoneskins reduce damage?

Vlahkmaak

07-10-2011, 01:49 PM

<cite>Talathion@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>If they nerfed healing criticals, why didn't they nerf the abilitys to completely avoid damage as well? Do you fathom what would happen if you actually parsed how much stoneskins reduce damage?</blockquote>Read the special reports. You will see info on stoneskins, blocks, etc. Stoneskins only work when you know something big is coming. they are not abilites to spam at random. They are very situational per use. That is the forte of the guardian. And stop trying to derail my BL thread over your fighter heal crit mechanics. Crusaders are just fine. I have one of each. They tank equally well. I cannot comment on a zerker becuase I don't have one. I know our OT zerker left for RIFT becuase he did not like the changes. If you want to improve zerkers list valid arguements on how more avoidance might be beneficial etc. You might find the tank, healer, and DPS community would be willing to listen and support valid arguements that improve ones function in the game.

Talathion

07-10-2011, 01:52 PM

<cite>Vlahkmaak@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Talathion@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>If they nerfed healing criticals, why didn't they nerf the abilitys to completely avoid damage as well? Do you fathom what would happen if you actually parsed how much stoneskins reduce damage?</blockquote>Read the special reports. You will see info on stoneskins, blocks, etc. Stoneskins only work when you know something big is coming. they are not abilites to spam at random. They are very situational per use. That is the forte of the guardian. And stop trying to derail my BL thread over your fighter heal crit mechanics. Crusaders are just fine. I have one of each. They tank equally well. I cannot comment on a zerker becuase I don't have one. I know our OT zerker left for RIFT becuase he did not like the changes. If you want to improve zerkers list valid arguements on how more avoidance might be beneficial etc. You might find the tank, healer, and DPS community would be willing to listen and support valid arguements that improve ones function in the game. </blockquote>Not trying to derail your thread, but they'res no reason Beastlords should have critical healing if Fighters cannot.Avoiding Damage is ALOT more powerful then healing through it, because you can avoid a multi attack (2 attacks) and a flurry (4 attacks), when a stoneskin absorbs a hit, it cannot flurry or MA.If you avoid an attack, it cannot Flurry or MA you.Situational? You can have those abilitys up all the time.

Lethe5683

07-11-2011, 07:12 PM

Your complaining about game mechnics that have nothing to do with healing. They should just get rid of strikethrough and be done with it, it was a stupid mechanic when it was added and it is even more stupid now.

Odys

07-18-2011, 12:12 AM

I don't kow about the situation at 90, but my paladin baby managed to solo palace of the awakening at 65-66. He killed sevral 69-70 ^^^. He was just using a 52 MC armor + quested armor pieces (some pieces can be used at 64 others at 67).His main self heal value is round 80% of his hp, the smaller heal is more like 50-60% and you can add on the top lay on hands, divine aura, and a ward of ~3-4k (at 6<img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />. All can be used while moving.

Ryai

07-18-2011, 01:04 AM

I absolutely don't want fighters to have critical healing. I would much rather they not be subject to crit avoidance and the like. Balance points being set at non-critting is way better for fighters as a whole.

Talathion

07-18-2011, 01:37 AM

Nope, Critting heals are much easier to balance, because right now they are not, critting them would bring back balance.

Lethe5683

07-18-2011, 01:56 AM

<cite>Talathion@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>Nope, Critting heals are much easier to balance, because right now they are not, critting them would bring back balance overpowered fighters.</blockquote>

Talathion

07-18-2011, 02:15 AM

Or you just need better healers?

Lethe5683

07-18-2011, 02:24 AM

<cite>Talathion@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>Or you just need better healers?</blockquote>What does that have to do with this?

Jacquotte

07-19-2011, 06:08 AM

consolidating crits was an awful idea in the first placebreak it back like it was in ROK:spell critheal critmelee critranged crit---while you are at it, give us back all types of resists:heatcoldmagicmentaldivinepoisondisease---further more, make all classes benifit from all stat-types like they used tostrength: auto-attack damagewis: resistsint: spell / proc dmgagi: parry/avoidsta: hitpoints---stop noobyfying the game by catering to the wow crowdthis would make you have to care about the uniqueness of your 24, soon 25, classes that this game has and stop the cookie-cutting one-size-fits-all gear

Lethe5683

07-21-2011, 04:45 AM

<cite>Jacquotte@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>further more, make all classes benifit from all stat-types like they used tostrength: auto-attack damagewis: resistsint: spell / proc dmgagi: parry/avoidsta: hitpoints</blockquote>No, if they bring back all the stats like that then they will need to change what they do. It was totally [Removed for Content] before.

Talathion

07-23-2011, 12:56 PM

<cite>Lethe5683 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Jacquotte@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>further more, make all classes benifit from all stat-types like they used tostrength: auto-attack damagewis: resistsint: spell / proc dmgagi: parry/avoidsta: hitpoints</blockquote>No, if they bring back all the stats like that then they will need to change what they do. It was totally [Removed for Content] before.</blockquote>No, Agi should be combat art damage and INT AND WISDOM spell damage

Lethe5683

07-24-2011, 05:31 AM

<cite>Talathion@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Lethe5683 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Jacquotte@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>further more, make all classes benifit from all stat-types like they used tostrength: auto-attack damagewis: resistsint: spell / proc dmgagi: parry/avoidsta: hitpoints</blockquote>No, if they bring back all the stats like that then they will need to change what they do. It was totally [Removed for Content] before.</blockquote>No, Agi should be combat art damage and INT AND WISDOM spell damage</blockquote>You say no to me and then more or less agree with me? What?

Jacquotte

07-25-2011, 03:54 AM

<cite>Lethe5683 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Talathion@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Lethe5683 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Jacquotte@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>further more, make all classes benifit from all stat-types like they used tostrength: auto-attack damagewis: resistsint: spell / proc dmgagi: parry/avoidsta: hitpoints</blockquote>No, if they bring back all the stats like that then they will need to change what they do. It was totally [Removed for Content] before.</blockquote>No, Agi should be combat art damage and INT AND WISDOM spell damage</blockquote>You say no to me and then more or less agree with me? What?</blockquote>that guy writes so much random wierd crap, take no notice of the troll

Talathion

07-25-2011, 02:49 PM

we do need critical heals back :/

Wasuna

07-25-2011, 05:16 PM

Critical heals would help Crusaders and Berserkers. Guardians would get absolutly nothing and Brawlers would get such a minor boost that it would basically be nothing.How about we get something for all fighters instead of ask for more of the old SF/TSO crap. Some fighters LOVED SF/TSO..Some didn't...

Talathion

07-25-2011, 05:50 PM

<cite>Wasuna wrote:</cite><blockquote>Critical heals would help Crusaders and Berserkers. Guardians would get absolutly nothing and Brawlers would get such a minor boost that it would basically be nothing.How about we get something for all fighters instead of ask for more of the old SF/TSO crap. Some fighters LOVED SF/TSO..Some didn't...</blockquote>It would help Shadowknights and Berserkers, which need the most help.Guardians are fine, and brawlers are the best tanks this expansion.

Jacquotte

07-26-2011, 09:41 AM

<cite>Talathion@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>we do need critical heals back :/</blockquote>in PVE, sure.. in PVP, no way..whats your HPS in solo fights? around 2-3k? and you have what... 45k HPs?

threat111

07-26-2011, 11:22 AM

All non % based heals should crit.orAll fighter heals should be changed to % based heals.

minichimi

07-26-2011, 12:05 PM

Healers shouldn't be able to melee or spell crit then. After all, their role is to heal right?I see mystics, inquisitors, and furies out dpsing tanks and scouts all the time, yet if a tank out heals a healer, "omg, it's the end of the world!1"What a joke. Every class should be able to crit everything. If the tank heals are too much then they should scale them back, not just remove the crit component.

Talathion

07-26-2011, 01:53 PM

Eh, I could care less about PVP, I don't PVP, but even I used to BG.I think ALL nonhealers should not be able to critical heal in PVP.Critical Healing is and would be FINE in PVE right now.As long as its Non-Percent based heals.

Wasuna

07-26-2011, 03:23 PM

<cite>Cerium@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>All non % based heals should crit.orAll fighter heals should be changed to % based heals.</blockquote>Guardians have no heals. What do we get? Right now, Guardians are kind of middle of the road in terms of tanking which is just fine by me. Make this change to all fighters then what do you propse to give Guardians?SK's were doing 3-4K HPS AFTER the crit heal nerf in SF. Paladin heals have been adjusted to balance them since they rely more on the healing for their spike damage control. Brawlers get an almost complete heal with mend anyway so crit healing would be a waste for them. The only class that I'm not really sure about is the Berserker and I don't really see a bunch of them crying except for Tala.I agree that it's kind of stupid for a prevelant mechanism in the game to be turned off for a whole subclass. But the fighetrs have to be balanced. Period. If that is what it took then OK.

Talathion

07-26-2011, 04:02 PM

<cite>Wasuna wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Cerium@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>All non % based heals should crit.orAll fighter heals should be changed to % based heals.</blockquote>Guardians have no heals. What do we get? Right now, Guardians are kind of middle of the road in terms of tanking which is just fine by me. Make this change to all fighters then what do you propse to give Guardians?SK's were doing 3-4K HPS AFTER the crit heal nerf in SF. Paladin heals have been adjusted to balance them since they rely more on the healing for their spike damage control. Brawlers get an almost complete heal with mend anyway so crit healing would be a waste for them. The only class that I'm not really sure about is the Berserker and I don't really see a bunch of them crying except for Tala.I agree that it's kind of stupid for a prevelant mechanism in the game to be turned off for a whole subclass. But the fighetrs have to be balanced. Period. If that is what it took then OK.</blockquote>all the hps wasn't because of healing, it was because of stonewill I II III/lifetap procs.You don't have those anymore though, those items did MORE healing then critical heals ever did.Absorbing Damage is WAY BETTER then Healing through it, especially in this expansion when mobs are finally hitting for more then half your HP PER HIT I would go as far as saying guardians are the best tanks, right under Monks/brawlers, which are probably going to be nerfed soon.Guess what? if a guardian in SF had 18 mobs beating on him and had stonewill 1/2/3 he would have a 5-6k healing parse as well! <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" />You talk of Balance? There IS no fighter balance.Monk/Brawler/Guardian/Paladin/Berserker/Shadowknight is the current best to worst tank classes.Guess what Critical healing would help the most? Not Paladins so much because they're healing isn't what helps them, its the fact that they heal when they attack and ward.It would help Berserkers and Shadowknights the most, the classes that need the most help.

Prestissimo

07-26-2011, 04:45 PM

brawlers are monks and bruisers. didn't know the monk was epic enough to be listed twice.IMO, until the healers have a base crit bonus of 1.5 just like everyone else gets for their niche function, the fighters can deal with non-crits.On the same hand, it's completely silly that the system is largely balanced and tooled around critting 100% of the time, yet the survivability tool of numerous tanks is not scaling.There is a lot of stupid things largely because of the imbalances in the system. If they want fighters to tank, give them the tools to generate hate without having to dps as hard. The reason survivability became a concern was because fighters had to dps to hold agro, and dpsing didn't provide good survivability.When they in typical soe fashion went over the top with giving survivability, it messed things up. When they fixed it in typical soe fashion, rather than just fixing the source of the problem, they over did it again, and have introduced new stupidity into the scenario rather than just taking the simple and logical course of action.I'm honestly and have been a fan of the idea of making fighter heals % hp based simply to end the whole problem and to make heals a linear benefit to all levels of tanks. Sure it'd make raiders stupid OP against trivial content, but tbh if the content is trivial to them, why should it be a problem? If they're worried about people farming old zones for the plat, just introduce a group/raid member count check on things like the shard chest and plat inside chests. If they're farming old gear, the only thing thats going to do is give more access to adornment materials which would make adorning prolifically more affordable when the materials are dumped on the broker and would just help to ensure adornments would be used a lot more which is kind of what soe wanted anyway. If there are things you don't want done with less than a certain number of players, give the mob a detrimental that damages based on the number of present players that is heavily punishing such as a raid mob det that deals 200% damage divided by number of characters present which would destroy solo and duo farmers but doesn't really affect anything when theres 3-4 groups.For those that say it would impose on the healers jobs, healers are largely cure bots anyway, so how would these things change anything? I run multiple healers, and tbh they spend more time curing than healing in almost every scenario across the board in DoV content.

Talathion

07-26-2011, 04:57 PM

<cite>Prestissimo@Butcherblock wrote:</cite><blockquote>brawlers are monks and bruisers. didn't know the monk was epic enough to be listed twice.IMO, until the healers have a base crit bonus of 1.5 just like everyone else gets for their niche function, the fighters can deal with non-crits.On the same hand, it's completely silly that the system is largely balanced and tooled around critting 100% of the time, yet the survivability tool of numerous tanks is not scaling.There is a lot of stupid things largely because of the imbalances in the system. If they want fighters to tank, give them the tools to generate hate without having to dps as hard. The reason survivability became a concern was because fighters had to dps to hold agro, and dpsing didn't provide good survivability.When they in typical soe fashion went over the top with giving survivability, it messed things up. When they fixed it in typical soe fashion, rather than just fixing the source of the problem, they over did it again, and have introduced new stupidity into the scenario rather than just taking the simple and logical course of action.I'm honestly and have been a fan of the idea of making fighter heals % hp based simply to end the whole problem and to make heals a linear benefit to all levels of tanks. Sure it'd make raiders stupid OP against trivial content, but tbh if the content is trivial to them, why should it be a problem? If they're worried about people farming old zones for the plat, just introduce a group/raid member count check on things like the shard chest and plat inside chests. If they're farming old gear, the only thing thats going to do is give more access to adornment materials which would make adorning prolifically more affordable when the materials are dumped on the broker and would just help to ensure adornments would be used a lot more which is kind of what soe wanted anyway. If there are things you don't want done with less than a certain number of players, give the mob a detrimental that damages based on the number of present players that is heavily punishing such as a raid mob det that deals 200% damage divided by number of characters present which would destroy solo and duo farmers but doesn't really affect anything when theres 3-4 groups.For those that say it would impose on the healers jobs, healers are largely cure bots anyway, so how would these things change anything? I run multiple healers, and tbh they spend more time curing than healing in almost every scenario across the board in DoV content.</blockquote>My healer in DOV can get 19-23k Heal Parses, my Healer in SF could only get 2-4k.

Prestissimo

07-26-2011, 06:39 PM

So can mine, but it's not that often. Granted its alot more common than when my healer got a 15k hps parse in tso, and a 23k hps parse in sf.If you run any of the group instances, it's very rare that you go over 8k hps and keep in mind that hp pools doubled since SF. 8K hps on a 40-50k hp tank is not really much different than 4k hps on a 20-25k hp tank. I don't see where anything has truely changed.

Lethe5683

07-26-2011, 11:44 PM

<cite>Talathion@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>My healer in DOV can get 19-23k Heal Parses, my Healer in SF could only get 2-4k.</blockquote>And?

Talathion

07-27-2011, 11:51 AM

hears the deal, Healers heals have pretty much quadroopled, they actually have proc gear that can do up to 5-6k of warding PER proc.They have Reactive Procs now, And HOT Procs, and Ward Procs.There IS no more stonewill gear, there is no more lifetap gear. (which IMO, did more healing then actual critical heals)There arn't 2million mobs beating on you in DoV Like in SF and TSO! (guess what? No more procs on hit like SF either!), more like 1 mob hitting you for 50000 PER hit.Tanks are healing about 700 - 1500 HPS in DoV, unless they hit an emergency like Battle Frenzy, and that is JUST Berserkers/Shadowknights, and these are ONLY Temp buffs with LOOOONG Recasts.700-1500 HPS is Nothing compared to my healers parse which is in the 20ish Thousands, infact its no neglegdgable its a wonder why people like monks/bruisers/paladins/guardians more.Blocking/Avoiding/Stoneskinning the Damage is MUCH MUCH more desirable since healing is so weak, so whats better? AVOIDING/Blocking/Stoneskinning a 50k damage attack that may or may not put a dot on you that decreases your mitigation and or puts a huge poison on you or trying healing through it with 700-1500 HPS?PLEASE TELL ME YOU UNDERSTAND WHAT I'M SAYING ABOVE AND IT MAKES SENSE <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" />

Jacquotte

07-28-2011, 04:10 AM

<cite>Talathion@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>hears the deal, Healers heals have pretty much quadroopled, they actually have proc gear that can do up to 5-6k of warding PER proc.They have Reactive Procs now, And HOT Procs, and Ward Procs.There IS no more stonewill gear, there is no more lifetap gear. (which IMO, did more healing then actual critical heals)There arn't 2million mobs beating on you in DoV Like in SF and TSO! (guess what? No more procs on hit like SF either!), more like 1 mob hitting you for 50000 PER hit.Tanks are healing about 700 - 1500 HPS in DoV, unless they hit an emergency like Battle Frenzy, and that is JUST Berserkers/Shadowknights, and these are ONLY Temp buffs with LOOOONG Recasts.700-1500 HPS is Nothing compared to my healers parse which is in the 20ish Thousands, infact its no neglegdgable its a wonder why people like monks/bruisers/paladins/guardians more.Blocking/Avoiding/Stoneskinning the Damage is MUCH MUCH more desirable since healing is so weak, so whats better? AVOIDING/Blocking/Stoneskinning a 50k damage attack that may or may not put a dot on you that decreases your mitigation and or puts a huge poison on you or trying healing through it with 700-1500 HPS?PLEASE TELL ME YOU UNDERSTAND WHAT I'M SAYING ABOVE AND IT MAKES SENSE <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" /></blockquote>yes, you make sense <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />and for you guardians who complain about not benifiting from this, remember that your class was made to take damage and have a wide assortment of mitigating abilities, just as brawlers have buffs to straight out avoid being hit. for the other 3 tank classes, heals is what we rely on.try telling me what your general HPS is and then try adding potency and critbonus and we'll see what should be affecting heals and what would be fair

Sprin

07-28-2011, 01:45 PM

<cite>Orai@Butcherblock wrote:</cite><blockquote>On the same hand, it's completely silly that the system is largely balanced and tooled around critting 100% of the time, yet the survivability tool of numerous tanks is not scaling.There is a lot of stupid things largely because of the imbalances in the system. If they want fighters to tank, give them the tools to generate hate without having to dps as hard. The reason survivability became a concern was because fighters had to dps to hold agro, and dpsing didn't provide good survivability.</blockquote>This... The fact that almost all Tanks feel the NEED to spec their AA almost exclusively to do DPS is the failboat system we have that SOE setup... Tanks should have FAR FAR FAR FAR more ways to generate hate then they do, besided doing DPS... becasuse when you have a tank that is spec'd / geared to do maximum DPS, their survivability is almost nil... Taunts doing a 10k taunt on a 20 second reuse when that ranger in the group is hitting for 100k+ every 4 seconds just from his auto attack alone... its just stupid..So of course what does the tank have to do instead? Max deeps to try and keep up his deeps with the ranger so he can hold aggro...The fact remains that tanks are usually judged on their DPS in a group rather then the fact they can take a hit like a tank and keep the group going steadily and quickly through a zone... Tanks trying to top parses is why there are so many fail tanks out there...

Wasuna

07-28-2011, 04:28 PM

<cite>Jacquotte@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>yes, you make sense <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" />and for you guardians who complain about not benifiting from this, remember that your class was made to take damage and have a wide assortment of mitigating abilities, just as brawlers have buffs to straight out avoid being hit. for the other 3 tank classes, heals is what we rely on.try telling me what your general HPS is and then try adding potency and critbonus and we'll see what should be affecting heals and what would be fair</blockquote>Guardian taking less damage than other fighters? Similar geared plate tanks all have roughtly the same mitigation and avoidance thanks to the curves. Guardian stoneskins? Those have a HPS of just about what Tala posted above if I use them every time they are up. I can target my stoneskins and flatten timed red text spikes but that's about it.Adding your crit chance back to your heals would only help Paladins in raids. I'm sure they would be happy with crit wards again. Adding crit heals back would only impact the Heroic game and below. This would again make a subgroup of fighters that were super cool and super fun when not raiding and would be a 100% equal tank for raids.

Talathion

07-28-2011, 08:14 PM

<cite>Wasuna wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Jacquotte@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>yes, you make sense <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" />and for you guardians who complain about not benifiting from this, remember that your class was made to take damage and have a wide assortment of mitigating abilities, just as brawlers have buffs to straight out avoid being hit. for the other 3 tank classes, heals is what we rely on.try telling me what your general HPS is and then try adding potency and critbonus and we'll see what should be affecting heals and what would be fair</blockquote>Guardian taking less damage than other fighters? Similar geared plate tanks all have roughtly the same mitigation and avoidance thanks to the curves. Guardian stoneskins? Those have a HPS of just about what Tala posted above if I use them every time they are up. I can target my stoneskins and flatten timed red text spikes but that's about it.Adding your crit chance back to your heals would only help Paladins in raids. I'm sure they would be happy with crit wards again. Adding crit heals back would only impact the Heroic game and below. This would again make a subgroup of fighters that were super cool and super fun when not raiding and would be a 100% equal tank for raids.</blockquote>I don't see how it would impact drundar and the new zones comming out soon and the new plane of war.the heroics below those are so easy anyways that the healer has to go LD for you to die. (I even do them without a healer sometimes, I just bring cure pots)

Wasuna

07-29-2011, 11:46 AM

<cite>Talathion@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Wasuna wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Jacquotte@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>yes, you make sense <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" />and for you guardians who complain about not benifiting from this, remember that your class was made to take damage and have a wide assortment of mitigating abilities, just as brawlers have buffs to straight out avoid being hit. for the other 3 tank classes, heals is what we rely on.try telling me what your general HPS is and then try adding potency and critbonus and we'll see what should be affecting heals and what would be fair</blockquote>Guardian taking less damage than other fighters? Similar geared plate tanks all have roughtly the same mitigation and avoidance thanks to the curves. Guardian stoneskins? Those have a HPS of just about what Tala posted above if I use them every time they are up. I can target my stoneskins and flatten timed red text spikes but that's about it.Adding your crit chance back to your heals would only help Paladins in raids. I'm sure they would be happy with crit wards again. Adding crit heals back would only impact the Heroic game and below. This would again make a subgroup of fighters that were super cool and super fun when not raiding and would be a 100% equal tank for raids.</blockquote>I don't see how it would impact drundar and the new zones comming out soon and the new plane of war.the heroics below those are so easy anyways that the healer has to go LD for you to die. (I even do them without a healer sometimes, I just bring cure pots)</blockquote>Then your saying that critcal heals will impact nothing in the game? Then why chage the way things are now? Sounds crazy to ask them to chance szomething that will impact nothing, as you said above.

Griffildur

07-29-2011, 12:29 PM

<cite>Wasuna wrote:</cite><blockquote>Then your saying that critcal heals will impact nothing in the game? Then why chage the way things are now? Sounds crazy to ask them to chance szomething that will impact nothing, as you said above.</blockquote>Haha, thanks for that. It only confirms what all of us knew already about this guy !

Talathion

07-29-2011, 12:54 PM

<cite>Mrrshan@Runnyeye wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Wasuna wrote:</cite><blockquote>Then your saying that critcal heals will impact nothing in the game? Then why chage the way things are now? Sounds crazy to ask them to chance szomething that will impact nothing, as you said above.</blockquote>Haha, thanks for that. It only confirms what all of us knew already about this guy !</blockquote>Critical heals will greatly increase my hate, and increase my survivability by about 10-15% overall.

urgthock

07-29-2011, 02:23 PM

<cite>Talathion@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>Critical heals will greatly increase my hate, and increase my survivability by about 10-15% overall.</blockquote>But why do you need to increase your survivability? Don't you remember this post just a little while ago?<cite>Talathion@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>I don't see how it would impact drundar and the new zones comming out soon and the new plane of war.the heroics below those are so easy anyways that the healer has to go LD for you to die. (I even do them without a healer sometimes, I just bring cure pots)</blockquote>

Talathion

07-29-2011, 03:36 PM

<cite>urgthock wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Talathion@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>Critical heals will greatly increase my hate, and increase my survivability by about 10-15% overall.</blockquote>But why do you need to increase your survivability? Don't you remember this post just a little while ago?<cite>Talathion@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>I don't see how it would impact drundar and the new zones comming out soon and the new plane of war.the heroics below those are so easy anyways that the healer has to go LD for you to die. (I even do them without a healer sometimes, I just bring cure pots)</blockquote></blockquote>I mean, it would help alot in these zones, critical healing would do nothing but help the problem, not trivialize them.The second you use my words against me is the second you admit theres a problem.

Wasuna

08-01-2011, 10:41 AM

No, there isn't a problem. We and using your arguments to show that your logic is going around in circles.

Griffildur

08-01-2011, 12:04 PM

Actually he has no logic whatsoever. Whatever he posts is dumb or just an idea he has to make life easy for his char and screw up everyone else. I'd say ignore.

Odys

08-02-2011, 07:25 AM

Now that my paladin is 90 i see the isssue. I was soloing the library with my warden in Sf manaar gear (adorned + a couple of raid drops). It was a bit risky, but she was doing ok.Once in good DOV gear teh library is a joke.My paladin has bad DOV gear (starting stuff) and i tried the first named for epic repercussion. I managed to bring him down to 20% but each time i died with divine aura/stonewall and crusader faith timed.So i looked a bit at the log, mob hits for very few (like 2k hits) but my HPS is abyssal.ward, big hael , small heal are on 40-50 second timers, they bring in the best caste1000-1500 hps.Otherwise my proc do heal, holy circle heals a bit and i have crusader aura 10/10.Globally (adding it all) i may do 1500-2000 hps (probably more like 1000-1500).It is simply not enough.So this dude kills me slowly.I certainly can solo him with my gear (my current aas were leveling aas so they are designed for AOE huntint), i can certainly raise my block and decrease the incoming damage on me.But still and HPS that low i really ridiculous.Note that this does not appear before level 90 when people get 100-200 crit bonus.

Yimway

08-02-2011, 12:47 PM

<cite>Gorock@Storms wrote:</cite><blockquote>Note that this does not appear before level 90 when people get 100-200 crit bonus.</blockquote>I really had a hard time trying to understand the point you were trying to make. And BTW its the accumulation of potency that really effects these heals now.If the heals are allowed to crit again, there are too many group zones that could be done without a healer. This was the justification of removing the crit previously, and it is still true if you have the gear.

Talathion

08-02-2011, 12:54 PM

Wasuna

08-02-2011, 01:07 PM

If you have to have a healer anyway then why do you need Crit Heal? It wouldn't impact your ability to do the zones at all.

Talathion

08-02-2011, 01:15 PM

<cite>Wasuna wrote:</cite><blockquote>If you have to have a healer anyway then why do you need Crit Heal? It wouldn't impact your ability to do the zones at all.</blockquote>Not really, I was more or less wanting critical healing for raids and really hard heroic zones like drundar.Critical healing would make no more difference in any other zones, with my tanking I will pretty much beat everything (unless the healer goes afk and I don't get cured), but thats just how easy the game is. (this doesn't include Zek Zones though, and Fortress spire, they'res always spike damage that can kill me they're when I pull rooms).To be honest, I'm just sad that they're is so much divide in content, they're are REALLY easy zones and REALLY hard zones.

Wasuna

08-02-2011, 01:25 PM

<cite>Talathion@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Wasuna wrote:</cite><blockquote>If you have to have a healer anyway then why do you need Crit Heal? It wouldn't impact your ability to do the zones at all.</blockquote>Not really, I was more or less wanting critical healing for raids and really hard heroic zones like drundar.Critical healing would make no more difference in any other zones, with my tanking I will pretty much beat everything (unless the healer goes afk and I don't get cured), but thats just how easy the game is. (this doesn't include Zek Zones though, and Fortress spire, they'res always spike damage that can kill me they're when I pull rooms).To be honest, I'm just sad that they're is so much divide in content, they're are REALLY easy zones and REALLY hard zones.</blockquote>My Guardian would die if the healer went AFK on a named independant of getting curred or not. I'd throw up my stonrskins and absorb exactly 15 hits. Then I'd use my death save and get a second chance. Then I'd die becasue I CAN"T HEAL. You ask for critical healing so you can be better individually but forget that there are other classes that you need to be balanced with.If your not balanced then ask for crit heals back.If you just want to be overpowered then ask for crit heals back and get ready for us to debate the logic of the change... oh... like we are doing now.

Yimway

08-02-2011, 01:46 PM

<cite>Talathion@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>You can't do ascent without a healer, you can't do pools without a healer, and you can't do crystal caverns without a healer, all require cures.So that statement is untrue.</blockquote>Things that require curse cure are blocked, however between control immunities and your cure spec, you can go a long way.Though, it occurs to me this will be my last response to you after reviewing your posts thru-out these forums.

Talathion

08-03-2011, 02:33 AM

<cite>Wasuna wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Talathion@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Wasuna wrote:</cite><blockquote>If you have to have a healer anyway then why do you need Crit Heal? It wouldn't impact your ability to do the zones at all.</blockquote>Not really, I was more or less wanting critical healing for raids and really hard heroic zones like drundar.Critical healing would make no more difference in any other zones, with my tanking I will pretty much beat everything (unless the healer goes afk and I don't get cured), but thats just how easy the game is. (this doesn't include Zek Zones though, and Fortress spire, they'res always spike damage that can kill me they're when I pull rooms).To be honest, I'm just sad that they're is so much divide in content, they're are REALLY easy zones and REALLY hard zones.</blockquote>My Guardian would die if the healer went AFK on a named independant of getting curred or not. I'd throw up my stonrskins and absorb exactly 15 hits. Then I'd use my death save and get a second chance. Then I'd die becasue I CAN"T HEAL. You ask for critical healing so you can be better individually but forget that there are other classes that you need to be balanced with.If your not balanced then ask for crit heals back.If you just want to be overpowered then ask for crit heals back and get ready for us to debate the logic of the change... oh... like we are doing now.</blockquote>I could respect to guardian and just use healing procs, and heal as much as I do now as a zerker, and probably prevent even more damage.How about we nerf stoneskins and make them reduce damage by 50% instead of by 100%? because I think they are MUCH better then a wimpy 1000 point heal we get.I would of betrayed ALONG time ago if I didn't love my class so much, right now I can only BEG for a fix.<address>((to be honest, I wish stoneskins/avoidance would appear on the parse, the only reason zerkers got nerfed is ALL of our abilitys appear on the parse, if they showed how much damage was stoneskined/avoided, then people would be crying bloody mary.))</address>

Kimber

08-03-2011, 03:39 AM

<cite>Talathion@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>I could respect to guardian and just use healing procs, and heal as much as I do now as a zerker, and probably prevent even more damage.How about we nerf stoneskins and make them reduce damage by 50% instead of by 100%? because I think they are MUCH better then a wimpy 1000 point heal we get.I would of betrayed ALONG time ago if I didn't love my class so much, right now I can only BEG for a fix.<address>((to be honest, I wish stoneskins/avoidance would appear on the parse, the only reason zerkers got nerfed is ALL of our abilitys appear on the parse, if they showed how much damage was stoneskined/avoided, then people would be crying bloody mary.))</address></blockquote> Pick one since Defense and Parry raise your avoidance<cite>Talathion@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote><blockquote><blockquote>Zerker's Needs 5% Base AvoidanceZerker's Needs 218.2 Stamina.Defense and Parry is worthless.Why use defensive stance if it DOES not provide my class protection?I get more protection from procs from hitting the mob then defensive stance provides.Losing Accuracy Sucks.When that happens (they buff defensive stance to be more in line with other classes) I just might use Defensive Stance, otherwise it stays at (apprentice I) forever.</blockquote>Defense and Parry are not worthless check ACT some timeIf you really dont like losing the accuracy ( none of us do but to live some times you need to ) you can always spec down the Wis line you would have to drop the one of the other ( let me see if I remember the words ) worthless lines as you put it since I seem to remember you saying you did not like end line str or end line stam as they did nothing for the class nm that Str will keep you alive a lil longer and end lin Stam will let you spam click Adren a few more times since you seem to think you have to use it every time its up ( from what you said ) and run your self out of power.You know what you said up there for some one that claims to have a zerk I should know why we dont use Def stance. For someone that claims to be a tank and raid I would hope YOU WHO CLAIM TO BE A TANK would know how to optimize your surviablity for your raid to clear content by using everything at your disposal including Def stance.</blockquote>Waste 22 Points in AA lines to get a worthless aa ability, or get Ethereal Adornment of Weaponry... hmm.. hard choice!Might I suggest using Defense/Parry against Raid or Drundar Mobs? you will find it quite worthless.</blockquote>/thread and any other thread that InsaneChaosMarine creates or posts on

Odys

08-03-2011, 06:24 AM

<cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Gorock@Storms wrote:</cite><blockquote>Note that this does not appear before level 90 when people get 100-200 crit bonus.</blockquote>I really had a hard time trying to understand the point you were trying to make. And BTW its the accumulation of potency that really effects these heals now.If the heals are allowed to crit again, there are too many group zones that could be done without a healer. This was the justification of removing the crit previously, and it is still true if you have the gear.</blockquote>I was just syaing that my baby paladin is now much weaker than a warden (with equal gear).Assume a modest 140% crit bonus, once you reach 90 :priest heal get multiplied by 2.4.paladin heal get multiplied by 1.Both are affected by potency or ab mod so i don't count them.As a consequence the hps ratio (warden hps/paladi hps) get mutliplied by 2.4.In EM gear it get worst (180% crit bonus) , ratio is them 2.8.We also tried to duo Xagolti (my warden solo it) with my Zerk friend and we took him down to 50% with everything down (zerk 3 life, paladin 2 lifes down).Note that this is with bad gear (unadorned mixt of rygor + instance drops).Note that the argument that it would allow people to run instance without healer does not hold. My warden can duo ascent with our dirge. We also duoed library till the cook (to validate some quest) again with a bard/healer duo.When we did we probably had a mix of SF T1, Rygor/QH and x2 jewells.For me there is a real issue if a 90 paladin heal 3 time less than a 80 paladin relatively to priests.Now, this is not the end of the story, since priest don't get MA. So for weak opponants (like the fake ^^^ chief rygor) my paladin does much better than my warden did (when she had similar gear).To conclude i believe that crusaders should still crit on heal but with a crit malus, as example only half of their crit bonus could be applied.

Wasuna

08-03-2011, 11:57 AM

<cite>Gorock@Storms wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Gorock@Storms wrote:</cite><blockquote>Note that this does not appear before level 90 when people get 100-200 crit bonus.</blockquote>I really had a hard time trying to understand the point you were trying to make. And BTW its the accumulation of potency that really effects these heals now.If the heals are allowed to crit again, there are too many group zones that could be done without a healer. This was the justification of removing the crit previously, and it is still true if you have the gear.</blockquote>I was just syaing that my baby paladin is now much weaker than a warden (with equal gear).Assume a modest 140% crit bonus, once you reach 90 :priest heal get multiplied by 2.4.paladin heal get multiplied by 1.Both are affected by potency or ab mod so i don't count them.As a consequence the hps ratio (warden hps/paladi hps) get mutliplied by 2.4.In EM gear it get worst (180% crit bonus) , ratio is them 2.8.We also tried to duo Xagolti (my warden solo it) with my Zerk friend and we took him down to 50% with everything down (zerk 3 life, paladin 2 lifes down).Note that this is with bad gear (unadorned mixt of rygor + instance drops).Note that the argument that it would allow people to run instance without healer does not hold. My warden can duo ascent with our dirge. We also duoed library till the cook (to validate some quest) again with a bard/healer duo.When we did we probably had a mix of SF T1, Rygor/QH and x2 jewells.For me there is a real issue if a 90 paladin heal 3 time less than a 80 paladin relatively to priests.Now, this is not the end of the story, since priest don't get MA. So for weak opponants (like the fake ^^^ chief rygor) my paladin does much better than my warden did (when she had similar gear).To conclude i believe that crusaders should still crit on heal but with a crit malus, as example only half of their crit bonus could be applied.</blockquote>Fighters aren't suppose to heal as well as a healer. Saying your conclusion is based on the heal disparity from level 80 to level 90 is stupid. Mobs at level 90 hit 10 times harder than they did at level 80 and I only have about 3 times the HP I did at level 80 now. Therefore healers are a bit behind the curve on healing from your numbers.Wardens are great soloers. My warden friend has always been able to solo harder content than my Guardian can. That beaing said, he can't use a darn thing he can solo so if he wants advancement or gear he has to group with a fighter to tank for him.That is how it should be. If you want to get your warden solo ability nerfed then keep up the comparision. Soloing is NOT the basis for balance... every. Just like PVP or Battlegrounds should never been the basis for balance in a PvE game.All fighters are doing just fine soloing the quests that are solo, grouping for the Heroic instances and tanking raid mobs. That is what the game is designed and balanced around and it's not to bad right now. If anything, the only fighter balance issue there is now is strikethrough immunity.Quit asking to be overpowered. I will keep debating why you don't need it. I agree that it sucks that balance had to be based on disabling a game mechanic but until you can come up with a way to fix the issue another way without making it so your God Mode again then I will keep debating against this. Play the game the rest of us play.

Wasuna

08-03-2011, 12:06 PM

Yimway

08-03-2011, 12:07 PM

<cite>Gorock@Storms wrote:</cite><blockquote>I was just syaing that my baby paladin is now much weaker than a warden (with equal gear).</blockquote>Your warden might have considerably more trouble holding aggro off of dps classes...What your duo can do doesn't really reflect on the mechanics of a full group.

Odys

08-03-2011, 01:19 PM

Well you are very right saying that solo/duo is not a good measure, but let say that my paladin HPS is 1500 (now that he got his mythical buf and that i adorned him a bit f it may be higher-- let say 2K). My warden can push 20 K and i saw her at 30K ++ over long periods (over 60 sec) ...-- Just a comment zone wide HPS is meaningless, what is interesting is the HPS curve and how it behave on spikes --That's like 15-20 time more.Allowing half of the crit bonus to be applied for paladins would make some sense, healing is class defining for them.

Talathion

08-03-2011, 02:32 PM

<cite>Wasuna wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Talathion@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>I could respect to guardian and just use healing procs, and heal as much as I do now as a zerker, and probably prevent even more damage.How about we nerf stoneskins and make them reduce damage by 50% instead of by 100%? because I think they are MUCH better then a wimpy 1000 point heal we get.I would of betrayed ALONG time ago if I didn't love my class so much, right now I can only BEG for a fix.<address>((to be honest, I wish stoneskins/avoidance would appear on the parse, the only reason zerkers got nerfed is ALL of our abilitys appear on the parse, if they showed how much damage was stoneskined/avoided, then people would be crying bloody mary.))</address></blockquote>My stoneskins 'heal' less than your heals do over time. I grant you that they are handy in certin situations that I can basically time immunity to certin things but I still 'heal' less than you do. Also, you can keep your heals up basiclaly 30-50% of the time.</blockquote>... Stoneskins do not heal, they completely prevent damage, this does NOT show up on the parse.

Yimway

08-03-2011, 02:41 PM

<cite>Gorock@Storms wrote:</cite><blockquote>Allowing half of the crit bonus to be applied for paladins would make some sense, healing is class defining for them.</blockquote>If half my CB applied, the group heal would turn into a near group complete heal in most pugs. Given the re-use timer, it is hard to imagine that being a reasonable result for a tank class supporting a group.If you removed the group heal entirely, I could more readily agree with this direction. The only caveot I can think of is the group regenerating ward needs to be unmodified (which it should be regardless).

Talathion

08-03-2011, 03:01 PM

<cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Gorock@Storms wrote:</cite><blockquote>Allowing half of the crit bonus to be applied for paladins would make some sense, healing is class defining for them.</blockquote>If half my CB applied, the group heal would turn into a near group complete heal in most pugs. Given the re-use timer, it is hard to imagine that being a reasonable result for a tank class supporting a group.If you removed the group heal entirely, I could more readily agree with this direction. The only caveot I can think of is the group regenerating ward needs to be unmodified (which it should be regardless).</blockquote>And what good would that do? a warden's group heal can pretty much keep the entire group up.a aegis/war rune proc alone (group ward) is 5000 for everybody, and 6000 for everyone (with 1000 regen).You care wayyyy to much about healing, when a paladin actually sacrifices alot of mana for those crappy heals.Atan, I told you awile ago before about Zerker's being F'ed because all of our heals were never fixed to scale, the only way to fix them is make them all percents, or critical.Paladin: Prayer of Healing/Group Heal.- If Engaged to a Solo Encounter1% Healing every second, 0.5% mana cost every second for single target heal, lasts 15 seconds.1% Group Healing every second, 0.8% mana cost every second for group heal, lasts 15 seconds.- If Engaged to a PVP Encounter2% Healing every second, 0.7% mana cost every second for single target heal, lasts 15 seconds.2% Group Healing every second, 1% mana cost every second for group heal, lasts 15 seconds.- If Engaged to a Heroic Encounter4% Healing every second, 0.7% mana cost every second for single target heal, lasts 15 seconds.4% Group Healing every second, 1% mana cost every second for group heal, lasts 15 seconds.- If Engaged to a Raid Encounter8% Healing every second, 1% mana cost every second for single target heal, lasts 15 seconds.8% Group Healing every second, 1.5% mana cost every second for group heal, lasts 15 seconds.Berserker: Blood Rage.- If Engaged to a Solo Encounter:1% Healing.- If Engaged in PVP Combat2% Healing.- If Engaged to a Heroic Encounter:4% Healing.- If Engaged to a Raid Encounter:15% Healing.((THIS IS THE FAIREST WAY to do this, if its done like this then Soloers/Raiders/Heroics/PVPers will all be happy.))

Lethe5683

08-04-2011, 04:51 AM

<cite>Talathion@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>...((THIS IS THE FAIREST WAY to do this, if its done like this then Soloers/Raiders/Heroics/PVPers will all be happy.))</blockquote>You mean you and a select minority will be happy.

Odys

08-04-2011, 06:11 AM

Yimway

08-04-2011, 02:14 PM

<cite>Gorock@Storms wrote:</cite><blockquote>An alternative to your suggestion would be to allow CB or a part of it to be applied on our yellow self heal.last if 50% is too much, make it 30%.</blockquote>yes, applying to self heals presents no issues. Even applying to direct single targets I think could be managed. It's the group heal and regenerating wards that get crazy.

Talathion

08-04-2011, 09:30 PM

<cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Gorock@Storms wrote:</cite><blockquote>An alternative to your suggestion would be to allow CB or a part of it to be applied on our yellow self heal.last if 50% is too much, make it 30%.</blockquote>yes, applying to self heals presents no issues. Even applying to direct single targets I think could be managed. It's the group heal and regenerating wards that get crazy.</blockquote>Make It Percent Based:Group Heal:- If Engaged to a Solo Encounter10% Healing- If Engaged to a Heroic Encounter20% Healing- If Engaged to a Raid Encounter40% HealingSelf Heal:- If Engaged to a Solo Encounter5% Healing- If Engaged to a Heroic Encounter15% Healing- If Engaged to a Raid Encounter30% Healing

Lethe5683

08-05-2011, 12:30 AM

Why do you feel like you have the right to be able to heal anywhere near as well as healers? Healing is their specialty; healers cannot tank even remotly as well as a tank can.

Talathion

08-05-2011, 01:04 AM

Kimber

08-05-2011, 06:40 AM

Out gearing a zone so you can solo it does not make your Defiler a tank put an equal geared DPS in there and try and tank it on your Defiler or drop your gear down to what you should have to do the zone and it wont happen either. Get a clue Tala.

Talathion

08-05-2011, 10:47 AM

<cite>Kimber@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>Out gearing a zone so you can solo it does not make your Defiler a tank put an equal geared DPS in there and try and tank it on your Defiler or drop your gear down to what you should have to do the zone and it wont happen either. Get a clue Tala.</blockquote>Out gearing a zone on a tank with critical heals or % based heals does not make him a healer, put an equal geared DPS with Enough gear and watch him burn a mob before it can even touch him using avoidance temps, drop their gear down to what you should have to do the zone and it won't happen either. Get a Clue Kimber.

Yimway

08-05-2011, 03:59 PM

Odys

08-07-2011, 09:09 PM

<cite>Lethe5683 wrote:</cite><blockquote>Why do you feel like you have the right to be able to heal anywhere near as well as healers? Healing is their specialty; healers cannot tank even remotly as well as a tank can.</blockquote>None asked for that, currently paladin HPS is like 1/10 of a healer hps, it should be higher.I was able to compare mitigation/avoidance between a paladin and a zerk (both with the most defensive build). Paladins are really far to reach zerk mitigation (due to aas).So care have to be taken due the group ward which is already stonger than the one of any healer and the group heal that is on a very short recast timer.The three ST heal (one is self only) and the st ward could benefit partially from CB.Sidenote : What is hilrarious is to compare the DPS of my crusader with the one of my warden (both in full offensive mode). The warden really dropped behind a lot with the MA madness.A direct consequence is to solo quest lines, it takes half less time with a crusader.It's rather disturbing to see a UNIQUE arrow doing more damage than the best direct dd spell of my warden.So my 120 potency/crit bonus crusader solo almost as fast as my 170pot/cb warden.I see this as an incentive not to play healers anymore. I let you free to try to solo DOV questine in ohmir gear with a crusader and a templar. The difference will be very extreme. This may have a deep impact on the population structure, leading to a quick extinction of defensive healers.The problem is not that easy to solve, because due to extreme HPS healers are probably the most able to solo heroic content. It mainly come from a decision to specialized more the classes : healer hps got insane, tank dps got mad, healer dps declined (relatively).We are not yet in the Eq1 situation, but not that far.What is needed is probably to lower healers HPS, to raise tank one, to raise healer dps, to lower tank dps but increase their non dmg based hate generation.

Talathion

08-07-2011, 10:46 PM

<cite>Gorock@Storms wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Lethe5683 wrote:</cite><blockquote>Why do you feel like you have the right to be able to heal anywhere near as well as healers? Healing is their specialty; healers cannot tank even remotly as well as a tank can.</blockquote>None asked for that, currently paladin HPS is like 1/10 of a healer hps, it should be higher.I was able to compare mitigation/avoidance between a paladin and a zerk (both with the most defensive build). Paladins are really far to reach zerk mitigation (due to aas).So care have to be taken due the group ward which is already stonger than the one of any healer and the group heal that is on a very short recast timer.The three ST heal (one is self only) and the st ward could benefit partially from CB.Sidenote : What is hilrarious is to compare the DPS of my crusader with the one of my warden (both in full offensive mode). The warden really dropped behind a lot with the MA madness.A direct consequence is to solo quest lines, it takes half less time with a crusader.It's rather disturbing to see a UNIQUE arrow doing more damage than the best direct dd spell of my warden.So my 120 potency/crit bonus crusader solo almost as fast as my 170pot/cb warden.I see this as an incentive not to play healers anymore. I let you free to try to solo DOV questine in ohmir gear with a crusader and a templar. The difference will be very extreme. This may have a deep impact on the population structure, leading to a quick extinction of defensive healers.The problem is not that easy to solve, because due to extreme HPS healers are probably the most able to solo heroic content. It mainly come from a decision to specialized more the classes : healer hps got insane, tank dps got mad, healer dps declined (relatively).We are not yet in the Eq1 situation, but not that far.What is needed is probably to lower healers HPS, to raise tank one, to raise healer dps, to lower tank dps but increase their non dmg based hate generation</blockquote>The only funny thing is the best soloer in the game right now is inquisitor with HM raid gear, they can put MA on every piece and get 85% Multi-Attack (with EM 50%), with a 2 hander and all those Auto-Attack Modifier Buffs they hit twice as hard as my zerker.They have more Mitigation then a tank (because of the mitigation they get from buffs/ect), and since healing is like 16-18k HPS they can pretty much Solo Kael.Heres the problem:Tank HPS: 2k.Healer HPS: 20k.But Critical Healing Fighters is overpowered... <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" /> (then again, ANYONE with alot of Potency/Critical Bonus and can heal with it are overpowered with the right gear to easier zones...)We can't even do ALL of the raid zones yet...

Odys

08-08-2011, 08:48 AM

Well inquis and wardens have always been strong soloers. My warden managed to solo the easiest kael trash (entry 92 ones, not temple 96 ones) when she had no raiding gear -- no armor just x2 items and probably rime 3 bp when i tried -- And e managed to duo the Kael quest line (warden + dirge).So yes we can solo heroic (better than some fighters) but we are slow doing solo quest lines, for solo content our HPS is simply irrelevant. If you want a stong incentive to leave the game bring a 86 templar with quest ROK gear (and may be some 85 manaar gear) in DOV, you won't die but killing any mob will take 5mn. A crusader will be 2-3 times faster.Solo mobs (up to chief rygor ^^^) do not even touch my crusader, their dps is extremelly low.Anyway, i agree that the hps ratio between healers and fighters is not where it should. A paladin should be able to do a least 1/4 of a healer. Zerk & guardian should be lower -- simply because they mitigate way better--, Monks are probably fine since they rely on % base heals that scale naturally.

Wasuna

08-08-2011, 01:27 PM

No, a Paladin is a fighter. You should have a mechanism to deal with specific damage spikes like all other fighters. Healing just happens to be the way a Paladin does that but Never-Ever-Never should a Paladin be balanced around healing, it should be around tanking ability only.Paladins are not healers. They are fighters that use heals to deal with spike damage. If you want to heal play your Warden. If you want to tank and use specificlaly designed heals to be balanced with other fighters abilities to survie spike damage then play a Paladin.

Kimber

08-08-2011, 11:17 PM

<cite>Talathion@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Kimber@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>Out gearing a zone so you can solo it does not make your Defiler a tank put an equal geared DPS in there and try and tank it on your Defiler or drop your gear down to what you should have to do the zone and it wont happen either. Get a clue Tala.</blockquote>Out gearing a zone on a tank with critical heals or % based heals does not make him a healer, put an equal geared DPS with Enough gear and watch him burn a mob before it can even touch him using avoidance temps, drop their gear down to what you should have to do the zone and it won't happen either. Get a Clue Kimber.</blockquote>Thank you oh so much for this post Tala.Fighters heals critting or changing them to % based has very little to do with gear. So you are correct in that it would not be the fighter out gearing the zone however it would make us OP if they crit. I know some gear has small % based heals or raw number heals on them also the mending adornments however these are not what we are discussing here.As for a scout using temps and having the gear needed to do what you said well guess what you just said the exact same thing I did about a Defiler as a tank. Thank you oh so much or helping prove my point. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/e8a506dc4ad763aca51bec4ca7dc8560.gif" border="0" />I would mail you a certificate awarding you a clue however I do not have the required info to do so.Edit to addI do think that fighter heals need to be looked at and should all be % based not raw numbers as this would make scailing them easier. As to what % they should be well tbh I am not sure I would say nothing other than Death saves should be over 25-30% though. I am also thinking they should work kinda like HOTs also just short duration say 1 % per tick over 10 sec with the tick happening every 2 sec or something like that. Just a thought also no I dont think it should be 1% the actuall numbers should come from those that know how the game works better like the Devs ( I know big assumtion there )

Talathion

08-08-2011, 11:30 PM

<cite>Kimber@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Talathion@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Kimber@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>Out gearing a zone so you can solo it does not make your Defiler a tank put an equal geared DPS in there and try and tank it on your Defiler or drop your gear down to what you should have to do the zone and it wont happen either. Get a clue Tala.</blockquote>Out gearing a zone on a tank with critical heals or % based heals does not make him a healer, put an equal geared DPS with Enough gear and watch him burn a mob before it can even touch him using avoidance temps, drop their gear down to what you should have to do the zone and it won't happen either. Get a Clue Kimber.</blockquote>Thank you oh so much for this post Tala.Fighters heals critting or changing them to % based has very little to do with gear. So you are correct in that it would not be the fighter out gearing the zone however it would make us OP if they crit. I know some gear has small % based heals or raw number heals on them also the mending adornments however these are not what we are discussing here.As for a scout using temps and having the gear needed to do what you said well guess what you just said the exact same thing I did about a Defiler as a tank. Thank you oh so much or helping prove my point. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/e8a506dc4ad763aca51bec4ca7dc8560.gif" border="0" />I would mail you a certificate awarding you a clue however I do not have the required info to do so.Edit to addI do think that fighter heals need to be looked at and should all be % based not raw numbers as this would make scailing them easier. As to what % they should be well tbh I am not sure I would say nothing other than Death saves should be over 25-30% though. I am also thinking they should work kinda like HOTs also just short duration say 1 % per tick over 10 sec with the tick happening every 2 sec or something like that. Just a thought also no I dont think it should be 1% the actuall numbers should come from those that know how the game works better like the Devs ( I know big assumtion there )</blockquote>Well The best fighter healers in the game are brawlers, why? because all they're heals are percents, so it never mattered if they crit or not, the devs LOVE brawlers, especially xelgad.

Talathion

01-21-2012, 04:01 PM

This might need looking a again.

Odys

01-30-2012, 07:43 AM

I think that the Devs should take and study some of the proposed ideas :- Give % base heals to paladins/zerker and may be Sks.- Allow some specific self heal to crit.- Allow all heals to crit but with a fighter penalty : like half of the crit bonus only and exclusing % based heal like paladin extra life and other similar death prevent spells or monks heals.I still feel that my paladin heals are almost irrelevant, he is not a healer and does not ask to be one. But his self ward and self heal are there to compensate lower mitigation.

Yimway

01-31-2012, 05:11 PM

<cite>Gorock@Storms wrote:</cite><blockquote>I think that the Devs should take and study some of the proposed ideas :- Give % base heals to paladins/zerker and may be Sks.</blockquote>No, percent based heals are a remarkably bad idea.<cite>Gorock@Storms wrote:</cite><blockquote>- Allow some specific self heal to crit.</blockquote>This however is potentially not an issue. Depends on which heal's we're talking about.<cite>Gorock@Storms wrote:</cite><blockquote>- Allow all heals to crit but with a fighter penalty : like half of the crit bonus only and exclusing % based heal like paladin extra life and other similar death prevent spells or monks heals.</blockquote>% based spells should be excluded from criting period, the scaling implications are ridiculous. The fighter penalty isn't really solving part of the problem the crit nerf addressed, as the ability to cast effective group complete heals was.<cite>Gorock@Storms wrote:</cite><blockquote>I still feel that my paladin heals are almost irrelevant, he is not a healer and does not ask to be one. But his self ward and self heal are there to compensate lower mitigation.</blockquote>I'm sorry you find these heals irrelevant, as I find them quite useful on my paladin. Now, would I give up one of those heals for one more stoneskin? Absolutely.

Talathion

01-31-2012, 05:21 PM

I still don't understand why the most powerful tank class (Monk/Bruiser.) also have the most powerful healing abilities.Shadowknights sacrifice threat/avoidance for there lifetaps.Paladins Sacrifice DPS for there healing.Berserkers Sacrifice Max Health; Mitigation for Regeneration.These are NOT on par with Monk/Bruisers Percent Based Heals/Deathsaves, They sacrifice nothing to get these healing abilities.Percent based Healing abilities should not ever critical, only ones with Values.

Rageincarnate

02-01-2012, 02:14 PM

<cite>Talathion@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>Shadowknights sacrifice threat/avoidance for there lifetaps.</blockquote>Leave my class out of your "fixes" plz <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Talathion

02-01-2012, 03:54 PM

<cite>Rageincarnate@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Talathion@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>Shadowknights sacrifice threat/avoidance for there lifetaps.</blockquote>Leave my class out of your "fixes" plz <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" /></blockquote>K?

KNINE

02-01-2012, 06:48 PM

<cite>TheGeneral wrote:</cite><blockquote>Now that players have so many more hit points and the critical chance we have to obtain in order to crit well on raids and instances I think it might be time to consider giving fighters their crit heals back. With the way things are now, any fighter heal with no crit now is pretty weak and in most cases non-existant. Ability mod has been lowered significantly as well. ... so what are the chances of us maybe ... possibly... PLEASE, having our crit heals back?</blockquote>when tanks out there can still solo stuff half the people can't because of their crazy heals.. there is no point in this.. i have still seen tanks parse 4-5k hps..while still doing over 100k dps lol and holding aggro.. really asking for something just to be able to solo more than now.. no need for fighters to be able to crit heal.. never was

Rainmare

02-01-2012, 08:38 PM

I do so love it when people come and talk about how you don't need something based on them seeing a supped up uber raid toon pulling out huge numbers...and usually from a group setup to maximize thier abilities.I got Rygorr/thurg armor and and quested/looted jewelry..and I promise you I have never even come close to doing 100k dps or 4-5k hps...especially solo.for paladins (and sks I believe) thier healing abilities were supposed to help offset the lower mitigation they have compared to zerker/guards. the heals haven't scaled with our new HP pools/mob damage. while I supposed we could ask for the heals/wards/lifetaps to be redone and made stronger, giving them the ability to crit back would prolly get the job done just as easily.

Talathion

02-01-2012, 09:25 PM

Soloing thing stopped mattering when they made the class that can out heal a tank (and some non-geared healers.)/do twice there damage.

Talathion

02-01-2012, 09:26 PM

<cite>Rainmare@Oasis wrote:</cite><blockquote>I do so love it when people come and talk about how you don't need something based on them seeing a supped up uber raid toon pulling out huge numbers...and usually from a group setup to maximize thier abilities.I got Rygorr/thurg armor and and quested/looted jewelry..and I promise you I have never even come close to doing 100k dps or 4-5k hps...especially solo.for paladins (and sks I believe) thier healing abilities were supposed to help offset the lower mitigation they have compared to zerker/guards. the heals haven't scaled with our new HP pools/mob damage. while I supposed we could ask for the heals/wards/lifetaps to be redone and made stronger, giving them the ability to crit back would prolly get the job done just as easily.</blockquote>Zerkers have Lower Mitigation AND health AND avoidance then every other tank, but we were suppost to get regeneration to offset this fact, but so far without critical healing this regeneration is worthless.

S_M_I_T_E

02-01-2012, 09:34 PM

<cite>Talathion@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>The only funny thing is the best soloer in the game right now is inquisitor with HM raid gear, they can put MA on every piece and get 85% Multi-Attack (with EM 50%), with a 2 hander and all those Auto-Attack Modifier Buffs they hit twice as hard as my zerker.They have more Mitigation then a tank (because of the mitigation they get from buffs/ect), and since healing is like 16-18k HPS they can pretty much Solo Kael.Heres the problem:Tank HPS: 2k.Healer HPS: 20k.</blockquote>Last time I checked my Inq is a punching bag which is offset by that new SK merc who takes all the detriments for me. Now if I were truly soloing stuff when I'm too lazy to go the the city and reobtain the SK I always run around in 1H/Shield mode as more things can hit me at once and I still have enough opportunity for the broken mending adorns and halcyon to trigger me 20K Hit points with an AOE that goes off with more than 8 targets around it.That's right this has been this way for years on many of my characters. Mulitple mending adorns seem to go off on resonance when you AOE with more than 8 mobs around you and heal me 1/2 health in one trigger event.2H is only superior soloing single mobs down faster than they beat you. If you're pulling the whole room an Inq in HM or not doesn't have enough AOE's to gun down 17 distinct encounters without casting at least a single target reactive here or there with some DG for fun before the adorns go off to passively heal you. I wish Inqs could use round shields so I could solo MORE content rather than the bucklers in T9 they've given us.Also, no healer heals 20K HPS passively. Period. I only hit 10K once while healing a whole group of mages who's health bars kept popping down to 15% with every AOE that a single Alleviation topped off to full in one cast. How would someone do 20K passive HPS soloing mobs that don't do that kind of damage?But to the point of the thread, yes non-% based heals should be looked at since they got nerfed hard in SF.

Talathion

02-01-2012, 09:50 PM

I almost forgot about Mercs... yeah the solo thing isn't an excuse anymore, anyone can pretty much solo anything.Class Balance should be a high priority.In some raid fights my defiler can parse up to 27000 Heals per second.Yeah I know..my berserker's Blood Rage and Ward of Rage is worthless now.

Odys

02-02-2012, 09:41 AM

<cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Gorock@Storms wrote:</cite><blockquote>I think that the Devs should take and study some of the proposed ideas :- Give % base heals to paladins/zerker and may be Sks.</blockquote>No, percent based heals are a remarkably bad idea.I was just quoting other people ideas ...<cite>Gorock@Storms wrote:</cite><blockquote>- Allow some specific self heal to crit.</blockquote>This however is potentially not an issue. Depends on which heal's we're talking about.For the paladin it would his main self heal.<cite>Gorock@Storms wrote:</cite><blockquote>- Allow all heals to crit but with a fighter penalty : like half of the crit bonus only and exclusing % based heal like paladin extra life and other similar death prevent spells or monks heals.</blockquote>% based spells should be excluded from criting period, the scaling implications are ridiculous. The fighter penalty isn't really solving part of the problem the crit nerf addressed, as the ability to cast effective group complete heals was.Agreed.<cite>Gorock@Storms wrote:</cite><blockquote>I still feel that my paladin heals are almost irrelevant, he is not a healer and does not ask to be one. But his self ward and self heal are there to compensate lower mitigation.</blockquote>I'm sorry you find these heals irrelevant, as I find them quite useful on my paladin. Now, would I give up one of those heals for one more stoneskin? Absolutely.Irrelevant is a big word, but i was tanking TOFSx2 with my crappy altxxxx gear and the heal numbers that were flowing around me made me feel ridiculous. I did not look at the parses, i did my job holded agro, used DA, stonewall and LOH properly. But my HPS was probably irrelevant.I cannot even kill ascent first named, even if i cure myself etc .... and my warden did it almost a year ago with similar gear (i mean rygor + crap), indeed she probably had lesser gear since as all alt i got some free loot.The day we went to kill Xagolti x1 for the HQ (turtel shell) with my zerker friend (both in bad bad gear, like instance mold drops) we were shocked to be defeated. It was a slow a painfull defeat. Indeed fater 10 second i knew that we would probably die after 2mn ...The fact is that if the mob dps is only 1K more than your hps, you will live 35-40 seconds.</blockquote>

Odys

02-02-2012, 10:12 AM

Btw i m wondering if this issue is so important, most of undergeared tank i cross have rather aggro/1shot issue than hps one.Wr to agro paladins are very fine -- you could even say privilidged -- (amend + sceal of heroism) but they don't have so much invuln : manawall, stonewall, DA (if mob are not hitting too hard) and a second life.Zerks/Sks have much more agro issues, guardian can moderate people so they fine.Monks are too rare so i cannot speak about them, but the ones i know told me that they had way longer invuln than crusaders.May be zerk should rather ask for better agro tools than for HPS. In my experience PUG with berzeker are often very messy. And i don't see why people playing berzekers would be worst players than the others.My favorite instance tanks have always been guardians and paladins, and i rolled a paladin (over a guardians) because i wanted to be able to raise my healer if i did something wrong (and yeah i wanted amend and good group bufs and open aoe).I m not speaking here about well geared toon, just about the average toon.

Bruener

02-02-2012, 01:43 PM

Really its simple to figure out where heals on Crusader should be. Just look at the avoidance difference behind Brawlers and take a look at the HPS that avoidance is. Having 15% more avoidance ALL The time you can bet that it more than makes up the HPS that a second healer puts out. How much HPS does 15% less auto attacks make up? Now try and factor in MAs, Flurries and Procs on hit and its ridiculous that Heals don't crit.At the rate to make up the incoming damage difference a Crusader would probably have to blow Healers out of the water on the amount they should be able to heal.Talk about unbalanced.

Rageincarnate

02-02-2012, 02:23 PM

<cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote>Really its simple to figure out where heals on Crusader should be. Just look at the avoidance difference behind Brawlers and take a look at the HPS that avoidance is. Having 15% more avoidance ALL The time you can bet that it more than makes up the HPS that a second healer puts out. How much HPS does 15% less auto attacks make up? Now try and factor in MAs, Flurries and Procs on hit and its ridiculous that Heals don't crit.At the rate to make up the incoming damage difference a Crusader would probably have to blow Healers out of the water on the amount they should be able to heal.Talk about unbalanced.</blockquote>make the brawler tank with the 1 healer.. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />I don't think people are communicating their groups or how many healers they are running when they talk. Yes, with 1 healer.. As an crusader in a mage group .. your prolly gonna die tanking anything tough.Can a brawler do that with no problem? sure.