Taunts

[Quicksilver74]

<p>What BASE threat would taunts need to deal in order to be relevant?   Personally I almost never hit my taunts, as they are garbage.  I would like to hit them though... I WANT to hit them, but since 99% of the time I have something else that is up and rdy, hitting a taunt is in almost every case a LOSS of threat by proxy.  </p><p>  I think that if you bump taunts up to about 15K base for the group taunt and 25k for single target, then they MIGHT be usefull, since potency and crit bonus should boost them enough to keep them current.  </p>

[Talathion]

<p>if you bump taunts up too much it will make tanking way to easy.</p><p>I want an AA that changes the taunts into an Attack that does alot of threat and cannot miss instead.</p>

[Silzin]

I would like to see ether STR/Agi/Int effect taunt/detaunt amounts or use the aggregation skill to do this. I think it needs to be on something that will scales like dmg does.

[Gungo]

<p><cite>Crabbok@Unrest_old wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>What BASE threat would taunts need to deal in order to be relevant?   Personally I almost never hit my taunts, as they are garbage.  I would like to hit them though... I WANT to hit them, but since 99% of the time I have something else that is up and rdy, hitting a taunt is in almost every case a LOSS of threat by proxy.  </p><p>  I think that if you bump taunts up to about 15K base for the group taunt and 25k for single target, then they MIGHT be usefull, since potency and crit bonus should boost them enough to keep them current.  </p></blockquote><p>Turn the single target taunt into a 10k initial and 5k every 3 sec for 15 secs recast 30 secs (base). Turn the group taunt into a 20k group taunt recast every 30 secs</p><p>Significantly increase the taunt amount and increase the recast. Taunts should be used to maintain and increase agro BUT not be a button we need to spam every 5 secs.</p>

[Talathion]

<p>Do what Grungo says, but move the warrior's interrupt component to other combat arts so it doesn't nerf guardian/berserker.</p><p>Make the reuse 1-2 minutes, but make it like a 1million threat generator.</p>

[Bruener]

<p><cite>Gungo@Crushbone wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Crabbok@Unrest_old wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>What BASE threat would taunts need to deal in order to be relevant?   Personally I almost never hit my taunts, as they are garbage.  I would like to hit them though... I WANT to hit them, but since 99% of the time I have something else that is up and rdy, hitting a taunt is in almost every case a LOSS of threat by proxy.  </p><p>  I think that if you bump taunts up to about 15K base for the group taunt and 25k for single target, then they MIGHT be usefull, since potency and crit bonus should boost them enough to keep them current.  </p></blockquote><p>Turn the single target taunt into a 10k initial and 5k every 3 sec for 15 secs recast 30 secs (base). Turn the group taunt into a 20k group taunt recast every 30 secs</p><p>Significantly increase the taunt amount and increase the recast. Taunts should be used to maintain and increase agro BUT not be a button we need to spam every 5 secs.</p></blockquote><p>What else are you going to push?</p><p>There is a lot of advantage on having taunts be fast recast for their values.  It allows for a faster pick up on  your agro and a faster declining of your agro when you stop the rotation.</p><p>I would say increase current taunt values on the ST and Group Taunt by10x what they are currently.  All you have to do is look at the threat output TPS in ACT and you can see how small the numbers are and in relation to DPS where those numbers should be when going all out.  What I don't want is some massively huge taunt that doesn't allow to work a level rotation for maintaining agro.  It would become a lot more of a headache with threat.</p>

[The_Cheeseman]

<p>Personally, I think taunts in general are a terrible concept. They are just too binary in their application. If taunts are powerful enough to keep aggro, they make tanking merely a matter of spamming two buttons. If they aren't sufficient, they're basically not worth using (like now).</p><p>My suggestion would be to scrap taunts entirely. Instead, add an effect to all fighter defensive stances that adds a +threat component to all our combat arts. That threat component would be modified by ability mod and potency and would scale reasonably well. You could also add about half the same value to the mid stance, as well.</p><p>Alternatively, they could just add a straight-up +Hate% mod to our stances. They doubled the hate mod cap, so we may as well take advantage of it. If every fighter had an innate hate mod bonus of +20% or thereabouts, we wouldn't need to be so concerned with increasing our DPS and encroaching on the territory of scouts. I mean, obviously I like doing lots of damage, but let's face it, that isn't our real job and it isn't fair to the many classes who must compete for DPS slots.</p>

[Gungo]

<p><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Gungo@Crushbone wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Crabbok@Unrest_old wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>What BASE threat would taunts need to deal in order to be relevant?   Personally I almost never hit my taunts, as they are garbage.  I would like to hit them though... I WANT to hit them, but since 99% of the time I have something else that is up and rdy, hitting a taunt is in almost every case a LOSS of threat by proxy.  </p><p>  I think that if you bump taunts up to about 15K base for the group taunt and 25k for single target, then they MIGHT be usefull, since potency and crit bonus should boost them enough to keep them current.  </p></blockquote><p>Turn the single target taunt into a 10k initial and 5k every 3 sec for 15 secs recast 30 secs (base). Turn the group taunt into a 20k group taunt recast every 30 secs</p><p>Significantly increase the taunt amount and increase the recast. Taunts should be used to maintain and increase agro BUT not be a button we need to spam every 5 secs.</p></blockquote><p>What else are you going to push?</p><p>There is a lot of advantage on having taunts be fast recast for their values.  It allows for a faster pick up on  your agro and a faster declining of your agro when you stop the rotation.</p><p>I would say increase current taunt values on the ST and Group Taunt by10x what they are currently.  All you have to do is look at the threat output TPS in ACT and you can see how small the numbers are and in relation to DPS where those numbers should be when going all out.  What I don't want is some massively huge taunt that doesn't allow to work a level rotation for maintaining agro.  It would become a lot more of a headache with threat.</p></blockquote><p>Its obvious you have no idea how to play this game. First off take a look at the current reuse of taunts before you spaz out your nonsense on the forums. The suggestions i made is litteralyl exactly what you posted. The group taunt/single taunt is 10x larger on similar reuse as live. The single target taunt is significantly larger and slightly longer reuse not to mention the fact if you have full reuse the effect would be up 100% of the time. Maybe you should invest in some reuse gear and look at the base stats of your taunt before you show everyone on the forums you dont have a clue. If you cant figure out how to put up two 15 sec recast (max reduction)taunts into your rotation its obvious why you have issues playing this game.</p>

[Talathion]

<p><cite>Gungo@Crushbone wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Gungo@Crushbone wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Crabbok@Unrest_old wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>What BASE threat would taunts need to deal in order to be relevant?   Personally I almost never hit my taunts, as they are garbage.  I would like to hit them though... I WANT to hit them, but since 99% of the time I have something else that is up and rdy, hitting a taunt is in almost every case a LOSS of threat by proxy.  </p><p>  I think that if you bump taunts up to about 15K base for the group taunt and 25k for single target, then they MIGHT be usefull, since potency and crit bonus should boost them enough to keep them current.  </p></blockquote><p>Turn the single target taunt into a 10k initial and 5k every 3 sec for 15 secs recast 30 secs (base). Turn the group taunt into a 20k group taunt recast every 30 secs</p><p>Significantly increase the taunt amount and increase the recast. Taunts should be used to maintain and increase agro BUT not be a button we need to spam every 5 secs.</p></blockquote><p>What else are you going to push?</p><p>There is a lot of advantage on having taunts be fast recast for their values.  It allows for a faster pick up on  your agro and a faster declining of your agro when you stop the rotation.</p><p>I would say increase current taunt values on the ST and Group Taunt by10x what they are currently.  All you have to do is look at the threat output TPS in ACT and you can see how small the numbers are and in relation to DPS where those numbers should be when going all out.  What I don't want is some massively huge taunt that doesn't allow to work a level rotation for maintaining agro.  It would become a lot more of a headache with threat.</p></blockquote><p>Its obvious you have no idea how to play this game. First off take a look at the current reuse of taunts before you spaz out your nonsense on the forums. The suggestions i made is litteralyl exactly what you posted. The group taunt/single taunt is 10x larger on similar reuse as live. The single target taunt is significantly larger and slightly longer reuse not to mention the fact if you have full reuse the effect would be up 100% of the time. Maybe you should invest in some reuse gear and look at the base stats of your taunt before you show everyone on the forums you dont have a clue. If you cant figure out how to put up two 15 sec recast (max reduction)taunts into your rotation its obvious why you have issues playing this game.</p></blockquote><p>My Taunts are like 10 second reuse and 8 Second Reuse, I really don't like to use them since they really don't do enough, but the interrupt component is VERY Nice and Class defining.</p><p>I say push your idea in and make them powerful with 30-1 minute recasts, but add the interrupt to other abilitys, or make them interrupt the target every 5-8 seconds.</p>

[Gungo]

<p><cite>Failathion@Nagafen wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Gungo@Crushbone wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Gungo@Crushbone wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Crabbok@Unrest_old wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>What BASE threat would taunts need to deal in order to be relevant?   Personally I almost never hit my taunts, as they are garbage.  I would like to hit them though... I WANT to hit them, but since 99% of the time I have something else that is up and rdy, hitting a taunt is in almost every case a LOSS of threat by proxy.  </p><p>  I think that if you bump taunts up to about 15K base for the group taunt and 25k for single target, then they MIGHT be usefull, since potency and crit bonus should boost them enough to keep them current.  </p></blockquote><p>Turn the single target taunt into a 10k initial and 5k every 3 sec for 15 secs recast 30 secs (base). Turn the group taunt into a 20k group taunt recast every 30 secs</p><p>Significantly increase the taunt amount and increase the recast. Taunts should be used to maintain and increase agro BUT not be a button we need to spam every 5 secs.</p></blockquote><p>What else are you going to push?</p><p>There is a lot of advantage on having taunts be fast recast for their values.  It allows for a faster pick up on  your agro and a faster declining of your agro when you stop the rotation.</p><p>I would say increase current taunt values on the ST and Group Taunt by10x what they are currently.  All you have to do is look at the threat output TPS in ACT and you can see how small the numbers are and in relation to DPS where those numbers should be when going all out.  What I don't want is some massively huge taunt that doesn't allow to work a level rotation for maintaining agro.  It would become a lot more of a headache with threat.</p></blockquote><p>Its obvious you have no idea how to play this game. First off take a look at the current reuse of taunts before you spaz out your nonsense on the forums. The suggestions i made is litteralyl exactly what you posted. The group taunt/single taunt is 10x larger on similar reuse as live. The single target taunt is significantly larger and slightly longer reuse not to mention the fact if you have full reuse the effect would be up 100% of the time. Maybe you should invest in some reuse gear and look at the base stats of your taunt before you show everyone on the forums you dont have a clue. If you cant figure out how to put up two 15 sec recast (max reduction)taunts into your rotation its obvious why you have issues playing this game.</p></blockquote><p>My Taunts are like 10 second reuse and 8 Second Reuse, I really don't like to use them since they really don't do enough, but the interrupt component is VERY Nice and Class defining.</p><p>I say push your idea in and make them powerful with 30-1 minute recasts, but add the interrupt to other abilitys, or make them interrupt the target every 5-8 seconds.</p></blockquote><p>So are mine but thats because almost every fighter has AA's that reduce the recast on thier taunts not to mention reuse%.</p><p>I have an interupt on my group taunt which is currently at 11sec recast. That is not so far off from the 15sec reuse cap on my suggestion. I believe as a zerker it is the same for your class.</p>

[Bruener]

<p><cite>Gungo@Crushbone wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Gungo@Crushbone wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Crabbok@Unrest_old wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>What BASE threat would taunts need to deal in order to be relevant?   Personally I almost never hit my taunts, as they are garbage.  I would like to hit them though... I WANT to hit them, but since 99% of the time I have something else that is up and rdy, hitting a taunt is in almost every case a LOSS of threat by proxy.  </p><p>  I think that if you bump taunts up to about 15K base for the group taunt and 25k for single target, then they MIGHT be usefull, since potency and crit bonus should boost them enough to keep them current.  </p></blockquote><p>Turn the single target taunt into a 10k initial and 5k every 3 sec for 15 secs recast 30 secs (base). Turn the group taunt into a 20k group taunt recast every 30 secs</p><p>Significantly increase the taunt amount and increase the recast. Taunts should be used to maintain and increase agro BUT not be a button we need to spam every 5 secs.</p></blockquote><p>What else are you going to push?</p><p>There is a lot of advantage on having taunts be fast recast for their values.  It allows for a faster pick up on  your agro and a faster declining of your agro when you stop the rotation.</p><p>I would say increase current taunt values on the ST and Group Taunt by10x what they are currently.  All you have to do is look at the threat output TPS in ACT and you can see how small the numbers are and in relation to DPS where those numbers should be when going all out.  What I don't want is some massively huge taunt that doesn't allow to work a level rotation for maintaining agro.  It would become a lot more of a headache with threat.</p></blockquote><p>Its obvious you have no idea how to play this game. First off take a look at the current reuse of taunts before you spaz out your nonsense on the forums. The suggestions i made is litteralyl exactly what you posted. The group taunt/single taunt is 10x larger on similar reuse as live. The single target taunt is significantly larger and slightly longer reuse not to mention the fact if you have full reuse the effect would be up 100% of the time. Maybe you should invest in some reuse gear and look at the base stats of your taunt before you show everyone on the forums you dont have a clue. If you cant figure out how to put up two 15 sec recast (max reduction)taunts into your rotation its obvious why you have issues playing this game.</p></blockquote><p>Well I see you got to completely change your post before I could respond pointing out your obvious mistakes once again.</p><p>ST Taunt - 8.0 sec recast (base)</p><p>Group Taunt - 20.0 sec recast (base)</p><p>Now please show me how those numbers equal what you seem to think taunts are at currently.  There is a huge difference between having a taunt up every 5-6 seconds and having one up every 20 sec approximately with some reuse.  Clearly you don't understand the disadvantage of this when dealing with mem-wipe type mobs or adds coming in randomly (oh wait, thats right you play a class that is given every tool possible to handle all types of tanking).  It is nice to have taunts up fast to be utilized again because they are extremely fast cast and harder to resist due to AAs, also have range, and believe it or not can hit for a decent amount of threat.  Bump that threat amount up enough so that TPS+DPS is greater than top T1 DPS.</p><p>Than we can get rid of all the stupid mechanics that make Tanks extremely reliable on near perfect set ups.  Get rid of hate mod and negative hate mod.  Get rid of Transfers and siphons.</p>

[BChizzle]

<p>The stuff you guys post is so not really even true, taunts do more threat than most ca's/spells per minute if you actually used them right.  You make the choice not to use them.</p>

[Bruener]

<p><cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>The stuff you guys post is so not really even true, taunts do more threat than most ca's/spells per minute if you actually used them right.  You make the choice not to use them.</p></blockquote><p>Yep.  Difference being is you have a lot of CAs/Spells and only a couple Taunts.</p><p>Think I was looking last night and my ST Taunt did something like 8k hate per sec.  And believe me I use it everytime it is up.  But after that it basically drops off a ton to the Encounter Taunt.  On big AE fights Grave Sac can produce some decent numbers.  Caress, the reactive hate, was a joke and did like 300 hate per sec.</p><p>If as some have pointed out there were a lot more Taunts tied to abilities numbers would be a lot closer.</p><p>It would be nice to see more temp buff abilities that proc a decent taunt amount on every successful hit.  And having the reactive hate buffs actually do a large amount of hate and have it proc whether the mobs hits or misses.</p>

[Boli32]

<p>Biggest problem with taunts is they are not effected by debuffs unlike every other damage ability in the game.</p><p>A 5,000 damager proc vs a 5,000 taunt proc. when the mob is debuffed the damage proc will do double the damage (and double the threat) where as the taunt will remain the same.</p><p>The second biggets problem is the recast... you simply do not want to spend all your time spamming the same two buttons over and over again. This takes any level of skill and enjoyment from tanking.</p><p>I personally think that taunts should be effected by debuffs (mental / magic?); but each base taunt is changed to a 1min duration which "pulses" agro every few seconds instead of us recasting the ability every 8 seconds so and they act like debuffs on the target so you can cancel them quickly and reapply to a different target/encoutner should you desire.</p><p>At the end of the day taunts and the idea of taunts is to act as an artifical way for the mobs to for target the more defensive... but less damaging member of the party. Whilst I believe a fighter SHOULD bring a considerable amount of DPS to a group this should obviously be the "skill part" between a good tank and a great one.</p><p>Taunts should act as a "baseline threat" nothing overly powerful but something that is always there; but how they function needs to be futureproofed (need to be effected by debuffs) as well as put the skill back into the hands of the tank instead of a nodding duck hitting the same 1 or 2 keys over and over again. It was a step in the right direction allowign them both to crit and be effected by potency but the hate gain taunts give you is... and should be minimal.</p><p>Why do I think tanks need a "baseline threat"; well untill all status effects are removed from the game and tanking in general tanks spend an inordinate amount of time being bounced from wall to wall, being stunned, stifled interupted and generally having their dps artificially reduced by the very nature of tanking. Tanks NEED that baseline threat to allow for the time we spend needing to reposition the mob after being punted across the room.</p>

[BChizzle]

<p><cite>Boli32 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Biggest problem with taunts is they are not effected by debuffs unlike every other damage ability in the game.</p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">So what, they still do more threat.</span></p><p>A 5,000 damager proc vs a 5,000 taunt proc. when the mob is debuffed the damage proc will do double the damage (and double the threat) where as the taunt will remain the same.</p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">What do taunt procs have to do with anything?</span></p><p>The second biggets problem is the recast... you simply do not want to spend all your time spamming the same two buttons over and over again. This takes any level of skill and enjoyment from tanking.</p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">Ever play an enchanter?</span></p><p>I personally think that taunts should be effected by debuffs (mental / magic?); but each base taunt is changed to a 1min duration which "pulses" agro every few seconds instead of us recasting the ability every 8 seconds so and they act like debuffs on the target so you can cancel them quickly and reapply to a different target/encoutner should you desire.</p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">So make this already incredibly easy game even more simplified great.</span></p><p>At the end of the day taunts and the idea of taunts is to act as an artifical way for the mobs to for target the more defensive... but less damaging member of the party. Whilst I believe a fighter SHOULD bring a considerable amount of DPS to a group this should obviously be the "skill part" between a good tank and a great one.</p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">Its already like this.</span></p><p>Taunts should act as a "baseline threat" nothing overly powerful but something that is always there; but how they function needs to be futureproofed (need to be effected by debuffs) as well as put the skill back into the hands of the tank instead of a nodding duck hitting the same 1 or 2 keys over and over again. It was a step in the right direction allowign them both to crit and be effected by potency but the hate gain taunts give you is... and should be minimal.</p><p>Why do I think tanks need a "baseline threat"; well untill all status effects are removed from the game and tanking in general tanks spend an inordinate amount of time being bounced from wall to wall, being stunned, stifled interupted and generally having their dps artificially reduced by the very nature of tanking. Tanks NEED that baseline threat to allow for the time we spend needing to reposition the mob after being punted across the room.</p></blockquote><p>If anything they should do something to make taunts more desirable to hit, maybe have an interrupt on every taunt and maybe a debuff, beyond that they do what they are supposed to be doing.</p>

[Boli32]

<p><cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Boli32 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Biggest problem with taunts is they are not effected by debuffs unlike every other damage ability in the game.</p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">So what, they still do more threat.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ffff00;">No, they do not, since 1 point of damage = 1 point of threat with debuffs you're often seeing taunts do less threat than standard CA abilities; this is with the added disadvantage that threat does zero damage.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ffff00;">EXAMPLE:</span></p><p><span style="color: #ffff00;">Taunt: 5000 threatCA: 3000 damage</span></p><p><span style="color: #ffff00;">under debuffs  - say x2 damage</span></p><p><span style="color: #ffff00;">Taunt: 5000 threat CA: 6000 damage</span></p><p>A 5,000 damager proc vs a 5,000 taunt proc. when the mob is debuffed the damage proc will do double the damage (and double the threat) where as the taunt will remain the same.</p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">What do taunt procs have to do with anything?</span></p><p><span style="color: #ffff00;">Nothing, but I used procs to remove potency and crit bonus out of the equation so we can compare a base value of 5000 threat vs 5000 damage when you facot in debuffs the damage generates FAR more threat where-as the taunt value remains the same.</span></p><p>The second biggets problem is the recast... you simply do not want to spend all your time spamming the same two buttons over and over again. This takes any level of skill and enjoyment from tanking.</p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">Ever play an enchanter?</span></p><p><span style="color: #ffff00;">Yes, I have actually - but one advantage an enchanter has is they don't have to keep on the look out and regually move and reposition - mage dps classes can move once and stay almost the entire fight - forcing tanks to continually cast the same two buttons repeatadly will mean I'm gonan have to buy a pedal for my computer as quite franky I don't have enough hands what with movement, changing camera angle every AoE general CAs/Spells, targeting macros and other numerous buttons I contiually need to use/press.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ffff00;">having a game where the person who clicks the buttons or waggles the joystick the fastest wins has never gone down well... aside from all the broken joysticks it is not a game you can play for extended peroids of time which I think is against any sort of business model to do with MMOs</span></p><p>I personally think that taunts should be effected by debuffs (mental / magic?); but each base taunt is changed to a 1min duration which "pulses" agro every few seconds instead of us recasting the ability every 8 seconds so and they act like debuffs on the target so you can cancel them quickly and reapply to a different target/encoutner should you desire.</p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">So make this already incredibly easy game even more simplified great.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ffff00;">No, it would just reduce an annoying part so you can concetrate on the bigger picture, constantly spamming taunt buttons can be counter productive. They don't deal damage (coercer myth clicky aside), with debuffs you're better off using your other abilities. and perhaps most annoying of all they don't do anything with a memwiping mob which is when you wil expect taunts to function (monk TSF endline aside).</span></p><p>At the end of the day taunts and the idea of taunts is to act as an artifical way for the mobs to for target the more defensive... but less damaging member of the party. Whilst I believe a fighter SHOULD bring a considerable amount of DPS to a group this should obviously be the "skill part" between a good tank and a great one.</p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">Its already like this.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ffff00;">I hope it to remain like this as much as possible, however the actual threat given by the base taunts is near negligable.</span></p><p>Taunts should act as a "baseline threat" nothing overly powerful but something that is always there; but how they function needs to be futureproofed (need to be effected by debuffs) as well as put the skill back into the hands of the tank instead of a nodding duck hitting the same 1 or 2 keys over and over again. It was a step in the right direction allowign them both to crit and be effected by potency but the hate gain taunts give you is... and should be minimal.</p><p>Why do I think tanks need a "baseline threat"; well untill all status effects are removed from the game and tanking in general tanks spend an inordinate amount of time being bounced from wall to wall, being stunned, stifled interupted and generally having their dps artificially reduced by the very nature of tanking. Tanks NEED that baseline threat to allow for the time we spend needing to reposition the mob after being punted across the room.</p></blockquote><p>If anything they should do something to make taunts more desirable to hit, maybe have an interrupt on every taunt and maybe a debuff, beyond that they do what they are supposed to be doing.</p></blockquote><p>More desireable to hit, I agree - but I am not in favour of the big taunt buttons with 100k threat each click or anything close to that. I just think that rather than upping the base value of taunts having +threat scale upwards with debuffs asall damage spells do will go a long way towards balace of sorts.</p><p>a 100k taunt vs a fully debuffed raid mob yes that makes sensea 100k taunt vs an undebuffed herioc mob in a group setting, well that's overkill.</p><p>Taunts shoudl scale up as the amount of damage scales up - having them crit and effected by potency is only half the journey; debuffs need to taken into the equationfor them to scale upwards.</p><p>I put up a suggestion of a "maintained taunt" which ticked with the hate on specfic encounters or single targets but you can also have suggestions such as</p><p>- Increase hate gain of fighter for a short time. - Adds threat to all abilities for a short time.- short term threat/damage proc- debuff which reduces threat if target hit if not a fighter</p><p>or numerous other ways to make the abilities worthwhile; right now... each fighter has two abilities, one encounter taunt and one single target taunt. Both of which are considered the worst of our abilities - but SoE claims they should form the core of our abilities and not just "a pretty button to click if nothing else is up".</p>

[Gungo]

<p><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Gungo@Crushbone wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Gungo@Crushbone wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Turn the single target taunt into a 10k initial and 5k every 3 sec for 15 secs recast 30 secs (base). Turn the group taunt into a 20k group taunt recast every 30 secs</p><p>Significantly increase the taunt amount and increase the recast. Taunts should be used to maintain and increase agro BUT not be a button we need to spam every 5 secs.</p></blockquote><p>What else are you going to push?</p><p>There is a lot of advantage on having taunts be fast recast for their values.  It allows for a faster pick up on  your agro and a faster declining of your agro when you stop the rotation.</p><p>I would say increase current taunt values on the ST and Group Taunt by10x what they are currently.  All you have to do is look at the threat output TPS in ACT and you can see how small the numbers are and in relation to DPS where those numbers should be when going all out.  What I don't want is some massively huge taunt that doesn't allow to work a level rotation for maintaining agro.  It would become a lot more of a headache with threat.</p></blockquote><p>Its obvious you have no idea how to play this game. First off take a look at the current reuse of taunts before you spaz out your nonsense on the forums. The suggestions i made is litteralyl exactly what you posted. The group taunt/single taunt is 10x larger on similar reuse as live. The single target taunt is significantly larger and slightly longer reuse not to mention the fact if you have full reuse the effect would be up 100% of the time. Maybe you should invest in some reuse gear and look at the base stats of your taunt before you show everyone on the forums you dont have a clue. If you cant figure out how to put up two 15 sec recast (max reduction)taunts into your rotation its obvious why you have issues playing this game.</p></blockquote><p>Well I see you got to completely change your post before I could respond pointing out your obvious mistakes once again.</p><p>ST Taunt - 8.0 sec recast (base)</p><p>Group Taunt - 20.0 sec recast (base)</p><p>Now please show me how those numbers equal what you seem to think taunts are at currently.  There is a huge difference between having a taunt up every 5-6 seconds and having one up every 20 sec approximately with some reuse.  Clearly you don't understand the disadvantage of this when dealing with mem-wipe type mobs or adds coming in randomly (oh wait, thats right you play a class that is given every tool possible to handle all types of tanking).  It is nice to have taunts up fast to be utilized again because they are extremely fast cast and harder to resist due to AAs, also have range, and believe it or not can hit for a decent amount of threat.  Bump that threat amount up enough so that TPS+DPS is greater than top T1 DPS.</p><p>Than we can get rid of all the stupid mechanics that make Tanks extremely reliable on near perfect set ups.  Get rid of hate mod and negative hate mod.  Get rid of Transfers and siphons.</p></blockquote><p>You posted an hour after i posted and edited my reply. I guess you really are that slow. If it took you that long to reply. Both my taunts are near the reuse cap BECAUSE every fighter has AA that reduces the recast on top of normal reuse %. So 4 sec recast vs 15 sec recast/15 sec duration threat DOT is different but the idea is to change the single target taunt from a spam button with little to no skill involvement into a sustained agro tool that has added uses such as adding constant threat to one target as you switch and target another npc.The group taunt is a difference of 10 vs 15 secs which is neglible. Spamming taunts DOES NOT involve skill. But i guess not involving skill is the only way you can play hence why you want them to remove all hate mod, transfers, and siphons. aybe then you wont have to learn how to equip yourself correctly to hold agro and just complain about how your scouts in guild are outdpsing fighters.</p><p>Given the umbers i posted above both my suggestions actually increase the TPS without making taunts into a spam.</p>

[Corydonn]

<p>I like the ways taunts are now on a bruiser, With their current cast speed they fit right in with AE abilities to fill in the gap on certain delays of weapons.</p>

[Gungo]

<p><cite>Boli32 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>More desireable to hit, I agree - but I am not in favour of the big taunt buttons with 100k threat each click or anything close to that. I just think that rather than upping the base value of taunts having +threat scale upwards with debuffs asall damage spells do will go a long way towards balace of sorts.</p><p>a 100k taunt vs a fully debuffed raid mob yes that makes sensea 100k taunt vs an undebuffed herioc mob in a group setting, well that's overkill.</p><p>Taunts shoudl scale up as the amount of damage scales up - having them crit and effected by potency is only half the journey; debuffs need to taken into the equationfor them to scale upwards.</p><p>I put up a suggestion of a "maintained taunt" which ticked with the hate on specfic encounters or single targets but you can also have suggestions such as</p><p>- Increase hate gain of fighter for a short time. - Adds threat to all abilities for a short time.- short term threat/damage proc- debuff which reduces threat if target hit if not a fighter</p><p>or numerous other ways to make the abilities worthwhile; right now... each fighter has two abilities, one encounter taunt and one single target taunt. Both of which are considered the worst of our abilities - but SoE claims they should form the core of our abilities and not just "a pretty button to click if nothing else is up".</p></blockquote><p>+1</p><p>I agree taunts should not be a button that requires spamming every ~4 secs. Its neither intuitive or fun/challenging.</p>

[Bruener]

<p><cite>Gungo@Crushbone wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>The group taunt is a difference of 10 vs 15 secs which is neglible. Spamming taunts DOES NOT involve skill. But i guess not involving skill is the only way you can play hence why you want them to remove all hate mod, transfers, and siphons. aybe then you wont have to learn how to equip yourself correctly to hold agro and just complain about how your scouts in guild are outdpsing fighters.</p></blockquote><p>Yeah that must be it.  I want to remove all hate mod, transfers and siphons from the game because somehow that would involve no skill for myself.  No, unlike most sally tanks I prefer to have more control over the outcome.  I like the idea that the harder I work at my class and the more involved I am along with yes making sure I push buttons constantly means that I will be rewarded more the harder I work.  You on the other hand and anybody pushing to have a long reuse on taunts that basically do all the work for them are looking for lazy ways to hold agro on your tank.  That basically creates the same idea as Auto Attack which requires almost no skill.  Its probably why given a group without those transfers and buffs you are literally a useless person in any group/raid.</p><p>Abilities that literally have you do less or nothing to gain more hate are poor mechanics and require people to have less skill to play.</p><p>Now, please move on and stop personally attacking me since you are definitely not the person at all to question my abilities as a tank.  Go kill some more EM mobs with your OP'd character.</p>

[Gungo]

<p><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Gungo@Crushbone wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>The group taunt is a difference of 10 vs 15 secs which is neglible. Spamming taunts DOES NOT involve skill. But i guess not involving skill is the only way you can play hence why you want them to remove all hate mod, transfers, and siphons. aybe then you wont have to learn how to equip yourself correctly to hold agro and just complain about how your scouts in guild are outdpsing fighters.</p></blockquote><p>Yeah that must be it.  I want to remove all hate mod, transfers and siphons from the game because somehow that would involve no skill for myself.  No, unlike most sally tanks I prefer to have more control over the outcome.  I like the idea that the harder I work at my class and the more involved I am along with yes making sure I push buttons constantly means that I will be rewarded more the harder I work.  You on the other hand and anybody pushing to have a long reuse on taunts that basically do all the work for them are looking for lazy ways to hold agro on your tank.  That basically creates the same idea as Auto Attack which requires almost no skill.  Its probably why given a group without those transfers and buffs you are literally a useless person in any group/raid.</p><p>Abilities that literally have you do less or nothing to gain more hate are poor mechanics and require people to have less skill to play.</p><p>Now, please move on and stop personally attacking me since you are definitely not the person at all to question my abilities as a tank.  Go kill some more EM mobs with your OP'd character.</p></blockquote><p>I dont need to question your abilities as a tank your own guild has called out your bs already on this forum. Lets make this eaiser for you to understand hate mod increases the agro you generate. You know by actually using abilities and skills. Transfer and siphons actually require cooperative play and the ability to protect your transferee.</p><p>But what you want is to remove these abilites and multiple stats that fighters have to coordinate and equip themselves properly so you can work independantly and press 1 button every 4 secs to hold agro. your problem is and has been stated multiple times you do not know how to equip yourself. You refuse to gear defensivly and by your own admission think there are to many difficult stats to cooridnate and want to be a 1 button spamm agro tank. I dont need to question your ability you do a fine job of shwoing your incompetence.</p>

[BChizzle]

<p><cite>Boli32 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><blockquote><blockquote><p><span style="color: #ffff00;">No, they do not, since 1 point of damage = 1 point of threat with debuffs you're often seeing taunts do less threat than standard CA abilities; this is with the added disadvantage that threat does zero damage.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ffff00;">EXAMPLE:</span></p><p><span style="color: #ffff00;">Taunt: 5000 threatCA: 3000 damage</span></p><p><span style="color: #ffff00;">under debuffs  - say x2 damage</span></p><p><span style="color: #ffff00;">Taunt: 5000 threat CA: 6000 damage</span></p></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><p>Instead of creating a wall of freaking text Ill just stop here, the 5k taunt vs the 3k CA the 5k taunt has a way faster recast, crits higher and provides more hate.  I'll put it very simply, my ST taunt is like 4 second recast, waking dragon is 5 seconds which would be my fastest CA to refresh, the ST taunt hits for 30k waking dragon hits for 11k, which do you think even with debuffs gives you more hate?</p>

[Boli32]

<p>Just at a glance waking dragon on parse threads I've seen does up to 20k damage; against a dummy it may only do 11k, but factor in debuffs and you're looking at approximatly double the damage.</p><p>But that isn't the point; I cast my taunts in rotation, of course I do, but the taunt numbers never really change from group to raid settings from solo to the toughest dragon. Your shout of "come over here if you think you're hard enough" does the same amount of threat; reguardless of the content or debuffs involved.</p><p>When damage has the potential to double under debuffs the taunt values remain the same therein lies the issue which has been "fixed" by upping the base values of taunts. In fact that is what the entire subject value of the thread is all about "increase base value of taunts".</p><p>I say that is completly the wrong issue to discuss; increasing base values of taunts will only push us towards the "press these two buttons for agro" approach none of the fighter classes want.</p><p>Given 100% hate gain:</p><p>* Tank#1 does 10k DPS and 15k TPS vs an undebuffed mob - he will be able to hold agro off a -50% hate reduction doing 100k DPS</p><p>* Tank#2 does 20k DPS and 15k TPS vs a debuffed mob - he will be able to hold agro off a -50% hate reduction doing 140k DPS</p><p>BUT if the DPS is doing 100k in the first instance and when the mob is debuffed they will be doing 200k DPS; since taunts are not debuffed like damage is pressing taunts to hold agro just fails and the tank will have to do 35k DPS to hold agro. If you wish threat to make up the difference rather than DPS you will need to increase the base value of taunts by doubling them so... you double the taunts:</p><p>* Tank#1 does 10k DPS and 30k TPS vs an undebuffed mob - he will be able to hold agro off a -50% hate reduction doing 160k DPS</p><p>* Tank#2 does 20k DPS and 30k TPS vs a debuffed mob - he will be able to hold agro off a -50% hate reduction doing 200k DPS</p><p>There we are; problem solved the agro is held .... but in doubling the taunt value if the tank did ZERO DPS, he would still be able to hold agro against a 120k DPS character; in effect making the taunts too powerful for lower tier content as it does not scale with the incoming damage which increase vs debuffs. So, you allow taunts to increase in value under debuffs as much as damage:</p><p>* Tank#1 does 10k DPS and 15k TPS vs an undebuffed mob - he will be able to hold agro off a -50% hate reduction doing 100k DPS</p> <p>* Tank#2 does 20k DPS and 30k TPS vs a debuffed mob - he will be able to hold agro off a -50% hate reduction doing 200k DPS</p> <p>Voila, scaling content! taunts have value and are not "1 win" buttons which if you spam you will always hold agro up to a point where they fail and you suddently realise your personal DPS matters. In which case you create threads on forums saying taunts are not big enough - but if you increase them you are only helping the problem and not the solution.</p><p>However I don't believe this is the only issue with taunts:</p><p>As I pointed out further up I prefer taunts have a more intrisic value than simply increasing your hate by a set amount; that method I believe is flawed but positional threat increasors and abilities which help US increase our own threat for short durations I believe is the way forwards.</p><p>Take Holy Ground for instance; after the intial AoE snap it has for a set duration (13s) a threat and damage portion to each combat art or spell cast and allows a more focused approach to threat generation than simply pressing a single button repeatadly; and puts some level of skill back into the user.</p><p>You can call numbers and throw parses at me to your hearts content about how important those threat numbers are; I do understand how threat works and I *do* press them, but none of us in our hearts want those two taunts each fighter gets to matter so much they are the only buttons we in fact press.</p>

[Thor]

<p>What about making taunts our initial hate generator?Increase the range to 20-25 meters, boost the initial hate values and add a small hate over time component. Give them a longer recast to not make them too powerful.</p><p>I do like the interrupt on our st taunt which have come in use many times so the interrupt component should be moved to another ca with short recast.</p>

[Gungo]

<p><cite>Thorine@Oasis wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>What about making taunts our initial hate generator?Increase the range to 20-25 meters, boost the initial hate values and add a small hate over time component. Give them a longer recast to not make them too powerful.</p><p>I do like the interrupt on our st taunt which have come in use many times so the interrupt component should be moved to another ca with short recast.</p></blockquote><p>This was mentioned several times.</p><p>Also I though debuffs only increase damage by 150% not 200%.</p>

[Prestissimo]

<p>Scaling is and always will be the biggest problem with taunts. Rather than trying to figure out a way to force the taunt to scale with the player and make it match all possible cons, why not have the focus of taunt scaling be on the mob? This would at least mitigate the problem of balancing taunts for both raiding and for grouping with static values.</p><p>For example... have taunts apply in a multiple relative to the mob's con. As a very short and dirty example, take a 5k taunt and apply it to an epic x4 mob. 5k threat * 4 (since it's an x4) which = 20k threat. Take the same 5k threat and apply it to an epic x2 add. 5k * 2 = 10k. Not an ideal solution, but it resolves the problem of using the same baseline value on solo, heroic, and epic mobs and of course it wouldn't have to be sequential integer multipliers for each con. If that was implimented, you pretty much just have to adjust one multiplier that applies to a fighter globally rather than a dozen static hate values that will never suit all con levels.</p><p>Secondly, according to the general "vision" that SOE keeps feeding us and failing to follow, threat should be an alternative means to hold hate from damage, but still be an important part of hate management for everyone.</p><p>This would be better emphasized if defensive tanking actually included significantly bumped up threat values that were on the same playing field as the hate generated by damage while fully offensive tanking. To better reflect this, I think that defensive stance should have an added effect that adds threat components to all fighter abilities and another added component that reduced damage output. Also, while in offensive stance there should be an added component that decreases threat output and while they're at it they could add some stats and bonuses to the offensive stance that actually improved damage more than just some relatively trivial additional primary stat and small skills boost.</p><p>Third, to address the taunt debuffing issue, why not just simply convert taunts to use the same resist type as the fighter classes abilities? If a fighter is using a lot of elemental based combat arts, wouldn't it make sense for their taunts to use the same type so that they gain equal benefit from the debuffs that boost the fighter's damage? The scaling based on debuff system already exists for damage, taunts just need to be converted into a form that is able to make use of it.</p><p>The biggest problem with all of this however is that it absolutely doesn't make any sense lore or logic wise, but honestly I think we're all past that point. Killing 10 (fill in the name) for some otters in a frozen tundra then getting rewarded with gear that is almost order of magnitude better than the loot possessed by the mighty dragons in Veeshan isn't exactly following the lore progression in terms of who's got more powerful items. Also, it's not very logical that simply because a character knows how to heal they can't use certain weapons, or because a person is a caster they are completely incapable of wearing anything other than pajamas into battle, etc. If it brought better balance to the game, I honestly wouldn't care if it was a bit odd.</p><p>That's just my 2 cents worth though.</p>

[The_Cheeseman]

<p>You know what would be neat? If taunts were actually a debuff that applied to a MOB and multiplied your threat generation against that MOB for the duration. You use a taunt and then let it run while you go about your business of killing, all the while the taunt is providing you with additional threat derived from your normal attacks. Essentially, it would act the same way a mitigation debuff does for damage, except that it only affects the caster's damage. This would allow taunts to have a meaningful, scalable effect without needing to spam them. You could even have taunts from multiple fighters overwrite one another, making aggro-swapping between tanks easier.</p>

[Silzin]

<p><cite>The_Cheeseman wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>You know what would be neat? If taunts were actually a debuff that applied to a MOB and multiplied your threat generation against that MOB for the duration. You use a taunt and then let it run while you go about your business of killing, all the while the taunt is providing you with additional threat derived from your normal attacks. Essentially, it would act the same way a mitigation debuff does for damage, except that it only affects the caster's damage. This would allow taunts to have a meaningful, scalable effect without needing to spam them. You could even have taunts from multiple fighters overwrite one another, making aggro-swapping between tanks easier.</p></blockquote><p></p><p >I really like your idea here.<span>  </span>One thing I would suggest is not making them over right, but make then all stack, even from the same tank.<span>  </span>So by spamming your single target 3-4 times in a row would put that many of your buff on the mob (each with a 30 sec or 2 min duration) and would for a time jack-up your hate on the mob.<span>  </span>One more aspect I think would be nice is, making them look at what stance you are in and if you are in D stance then it increases hate, and if in O stance then decreases hate.<span>  </span></p>

[Boli32]

<p><cite>Silzin wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>The_Cheeseman wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>You know what would be neat? If taunts were actually a debuff that applied to a MOB and multiplied your threat generation against that MOB for the duration. You use a taunt and then let it run while you go about your business of killing, all the while the taunt is providing you with additional threat derived from your normal attacks. Essentially, it would act the same way a mitigation debuff does for damage, except that it only affects the caster's damage. This would allow taunts to have a meaningful, scalable effect without needing to spam them. You could even have taunts from multiple fighters overwrite one another, making aggro-swapping between tanks easier.</p></blockquote><p>I really like your idea here.<span>  </span>One thing I would suggest is not making them over right, but make then all stack, even from the same tank.<span>  </span>So by spamming your single target 3-4 times in a row would put that many of your buff on the mob (each with a 30 sec or 2 min duration) and would for a time jack-up your hate on the mob.<span>  </span>One more aspect I think would be nice is, making them look at what stance you are in and if you are in D stance then it increases hate, and if in O stance then decreases hate.<span>  </span></p></blockquote><p>NO NEVER AGAIN!</p><p>The idea that offensive stance drops hate and defensive one incresaes it will never work - it was tried and almost forced onto us with the big fighter revamp but ultimatly fails as using multiple tanks in raids (the principle in giving us a offensive stance in the first place) the idea is to be second or high up enough on the hate list to grab agro.</p><p>Having our primary offensive buff shed hate from us kind of goes against everything - I would much prefer they dropped the stance idea altogether.</p><p>As for the taunt "debuff" making them stack wityh themselves will just see every tank furiously pressing one button in order to hold agro... not good.</p>

[Gungo]

<p>I agree I dont think tanks need a deagro on thier offensive stance. I would simply like to see each tank get an AA next exanpsion thats adds ~15% hate gain to DEFENSIVE stance. This way when you switch stances you should naturally produce less agro.</p><p>The debuff idea is cool for a new taunt type ability or a new effect on an attack. Although it wouldnt work as the only hate gain ability since the debuff doesnt produce hate only increases the hate you produce with the target. It also shouldnt stack from the same target multiple times, but each tank should be able to use thier own debuff on the same target to increase thier agro.</p><p>I would like to see each tank have 3 types of taunts, 1 single hate over time taunt, 1 encounter direct hate taunt, and maybe a direct taunt/atk with the debuff effect stated above.</p>

[Silzin]

<p>I still like 'The_Cheeseman' original idea and i think that i wansnt very clear about what i was meaning. The debuff would give you like 10% hate gain on set mob while it is running. I was saying we can let these stack with each other and last for like 2 min each, with a limit of how many will stack on the target mob. If you are in Offensive stance you have the choice of using that same debuff to decrease your over all hate gain by that same 10%. If you didnt want less hate gain then you wouldnt have to use that debuff, but you could.</p><p>PS, i also think all D stances need some hate gain added to them.</p>

[Landiin]

It'ed be easier and more simple to just to make a % of the amount of damage mitigated/avoided (depending on tank type) reflect hate(if fighter class). This way it is even across the board for all tanks. Couple this with the tanks current snaps/taunts balancing aggro would be a lot easier.

[Ryai]

Sadly, i think the only way taunts will become relevant is to eliminate positionals. Which I don't believe in either. Right now the real problem is not aggro generation persay. The problem is taunt values cannot coexist in their current forms with snaps. The taunt/CA debate, while entertaining, doesn't address the core issue of the OP. Which is that DPS has completely outpaced tank aggro generation. There is only one way to cope with early sorcerer dps generation, and that is a snap effect. Focused casting/timewarp into fiery blast/manaburn mean immense amounts of hate, fast. The crux of the problem lies in efficiency. I will never tell a sorc to hold back. Because I know with positionals, I can immediately vault my self far, far above the majority of a raid, and the smart sorcs will positional detaunt as well. You can go ahead and spend the entire time building up hate, crunching the numbers, and proving they are adequate. I'll achieve the same end ignoring those skills, abusing positionals and the system. That is the problem and why taunts aren't relevant and need to be fixed. Because you can play entirely without them and do just as well, if not better, because I'm not wasting time mashing taunts instead of CAs. And that timewarped Mage can still annihilate the hate gap in 3 casts. Making all that taunting completely worthless, since you have to use a force target/positional anyways.