Brawlers in PvP

[Shuai]

<p>..................... nuff said. </p>

[Proud_Silence]

<p>10 sec AA parry and another 12 sec Myth parry ( which also heals for large ammount) gives the Bruisers 22 seconds time against any melee based class where they have to not worry about anything.</p><p>No other class has this freedom, not even close.</p><p>I have a 90 assassin , 90 Bruiser and 89 Zerker all with 300 AA, <strong>assassin has a 10 sec parry AA ability but i can not use CA's or deal damage while it's running. This seems like a fair pvp solution. </strong></p><p>My Berserker's Adrenalin was nerfed and now it's useless. Ok that was because it was stupid OP in PVE as well.</p><p><strong>Blood Frenzy is 30sec in PVE, and 10 triggers in PVP. very good solution.</strong></p><p>Perhaps it would be in line to change the Parry abilities from brawlers in pvp to a version where they deflect a certain ammount of attacks, or give them more stoneskins. but <strong>22 sec immunity against all melee is way too long in pvp, considering they can still deal damage without disadvantages.</strong></p><p>it seems strange that basically 100 people can attack a bruiser with weapons and for 10 sec he parries everyhit, thousands of attacks. most lethal physical attacks, Sniper shot and Assassinate, both on a 15min timer ( which is stupid, but another topic), are simply parried. An affront to Predators.</p><p>Edit: typo</p>

[Democratt]

<p>In this thread, a predator is crying about an avoidance tank. Nuff said.</p>

[Apiar]

<p><cite>Democratt wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>In this thread, a predator is crying about an avoidance tank. Nuff said.</p></blockquote><p>Avoidance tanks that range auto attack harder than a ranger and melee flurry/ma more than rogues.  Go figure.  Bruiser is way out of balance in PvP and always has been.</p>

[Proud_Silence]

<p><cite>Democratt wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>In this thread, a predator is crying about an avoidance tank. Nuff said.</p></blockquote><p>it's not so much the avoidance but the total immunity to melee temps. Please show me the tank that can go immune to all magic damage for 10 - 22 seconds and i'll glady accept you calling predators whiners. Until then there's an unbalance between T1 dmg dealers ( magic and melee based) vs tanks, in specific brawlers.</p>

[Democratt]

<p>T1 melee DPS shouldn't be able to straight burn a tank. That's why they're tanks. They are able to nullify the damage. Also, show me another fighter that's wearing leather. Yes, it's all about predator's whining. Let's completely ignore the fact that brawlers are probably the easiest class to kite in the game.</p>

[Sprin]

<p><cite>Democratt wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>In this thread, a predator is crying about an avoidance tank. Nuff said.</p></blockquote><p>LOLZ exactly..  An assassin crying that the ONLY class in the entire game he cant beat easily needs a nerf... [Removed for Content]</p>

[Corydonn]

<p><cite>Proud_Silence wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Please show me the tank that can go immune to all magic damage for 10 - 22 seconds and i'll glady accept you calling predators whiners.</p></blockquote><p>Divine Aura. Can I get my prize?</p>

[Notsovilepriest]

<p><cite>Corydonn wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Proud_Silence wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Please show me the tank that can go immune to all magic damage for 10 - 22 seconds and i'll glady accept you calling predators whiners.</p></blockquote><p>Divine Aura. Can I get my prize?</p></blockquote><p>That lasts ~5 seconds because it's dispellable by a large portion of classes, unlike the avoidance moves to be 100% fair.</p>

[Crismorn]

<p>They should just cap avoidance at 65-70% in pvp and leave all abilities alone imo.</p>

[Shuai]

<p>Na I'm totally fine being down and out against bralwers, it's when I see 8 people bearting on one for 2-3 minutes while he hops around that there's a problem.</p>

[Ilovecows]

<p><cite>Crismorn wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>They should just cap avoidance at 65-70% in pvp and leave all abilities alone imo.</p></blockquote><p>QFE</p>

[Shuai]

<p>Every class should have it's nemesis/bane. Do brawlers have one? </p>

[Wytie]

<p>casters can take em out while mele distracts them, parry this</p><p>they arent any worse than an SK in pvp, yep sk is much much worse</p><p>brawlers use to really suck with the detaunt procs but now you just have to kill them 3 times, it can suck but im fine with that tbh</p>

[Corydonn]

<p>Any mage and some priests that know how to play can take a brawler out 1v1.</p>

[Shuai]

<p>Who have you lost to 1v1 corydonn? SINCE GU60, not before</p>

[Corydonn]

<p><cite>Shuai wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Who have you lost to 1v1 corydonn? SINCE GU60, not before</p></blockquote><p>That is a loaded question, Because I don't think it happened before either. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" /></p><p>But if I ever got into any 1 on 1s. I know Swaga or a good mystic would probably win. Or a good coercer, But I haven't seen one of those since Latharek.</p>

[Shuai]

<p>You should set some up, if you lose to someone 1v1 then I'll recall the brawler op'ness. No intentional losing either!!</p>

[Corydonn]

<p><cite>Shuai wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>You should set some up, if you lose to someone 1v1 then I'll recall the brawler op'ness. No intentional losing either!!</p></blockquote><p>Yeah let me get some AB mages out of retirement and I'll get right on that. <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

[Crismorn]

<p>When BG's came out I'd fight Corydonn for like 5-10mins and neither of us would die until others joined in.</p><p>good times.</p>

[Proud_Silence]

<p><cite>Democratt wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>T1 melee DPS shouldn't be able to straight burn a tank. That's why they're tanks. They are able to nullify the damage. Also, show me another fighter that's wearing leather. Yes, it's all about predator's whining. Let's completely ignore the fact that brawlers are probably the easiest class to kite in the game.</p></blockquote><p>I totally agree, it shouldn't be possible to sneak up and just burn a tank down, but in reality that's the best shot you got, because once those temps are running you can do nothing but try to snare, detaunt and get behind an obstacle to get away from the ranged attacks coming from tanks doing the same damage as most scouts.</p><p>There's no drawback while the immunities are running, i mean i got a 90 Bruiser and enjoy killing scouts, especially rangers and assassins, but i still think it's unbalanced. a max parry of 70 or 80% would seem fine (don't touch PVE effect obviously)</p>

[Corydonn]

<p><cite>Crismorn wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>When BG's came out I'd fight Corydonn for like 5-10mins and neither of us would die until others joined in.</p><p>good times.</p></blockquote><p>Until you cast the Knockback every CA spell... And I try curing it with a CA as I knock myself off the edge. <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

[Crismorn]

<p>Heresy lol, the worst was when you would drag me off the middle of smugglers to my death until I realized that slowfall worked incombat.</p>

[Democratt]

<p><cite>Crismorn wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>They should just cap avoidance at 65-70% in pvp and leave all abilities alone imo.</p></blockquote><p>Why would they ever do that?</p>

[Gungo]

<p><cite>Apiar wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Democratt wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>In this thread, a predator is crying about an avoidance tank. Nuff said.</p></blockquote><p>Avoidance tanks that range auto attack harder than a ranger and melee flurry/ma more than rogues.  Go figure.  Bruiser is way out of balance in PvP and always has been.</p></blockquote><p>[Removed for Content] were do you make up this nonsense. Brawlers use thrown weapons which are worse then bow equivilants, ranger get extra base damage to ranged weapons And scout gear has about 100 more MA then fighter gear.</p><p>If you are going to complain about something at least try to make a plausible argument instead of talking out your rear.</p>

[Loldawg]

<p>I think they are especially hard to kill for scouts - but mages / clerics can kill them. I've killed plenty of brawlers on my inquis. Great brawlers are probably impossible to kill - but so what - its not like there haven't been completely OP classes or abilities before. Predators w/ bow and auto-attack are still ridic even after GU60. And don't get me started about fettering poison - basically perma-rooted ability makes decent rangers totally OP...</p>

[Shuai]

<p>You know you can right click cancel fettering poison right? And Arrow Barrage?</p>

[sdaigneault]

<p>I know b/c of you - is that an intended mechanic tho? - or a bug developers should have on their list to fix?</p><p>In any case - fettering poison wasn't the point of my post.</p>

[Shuai]

<p>Oh believe me I hope it changes, might make it possible to kite a brawler. But it's been that way for years. Anyways, it was something you posted that you had trouble with so I just eliminated the trouble of it for ya.</p>

[Corydonn]

<p><cite>Shuai wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Oh believe me I hope it changes, might make it possible to kite a brawler. But it's been that way for years. Anyways, it was something you posted that you had trouble with so I just eliminated the trouble of it for ya.</p></blockquote><p>Clicking it off is possible? Bah at exploits <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

[Shuai]

<p>Yeah not much room to run around or escape in a bg anyways so I guess lots of bluebies haven't known about it. But they all do now! (coughfixpleasecough)</p><p>But apparently there are tons of others you can right click and cancel I'm hearing. Dirge group snare and mit debuff, troub ae dots.</p>

[Corydonn]

<p><cite>Shuai wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Yeah not much room to run around or escape in a bg anyways so I guess lots of bluebies haven't known about it. But they all do now! (coughfixpleasecough)</p><p>But apparently there are tons of others you can right click and cancel I'm hearing. Dirge group snare and mit debuff, troub ae dots.</p></blockquote><p>Well that poison is usually the number one killer of me when I can't sprint away.</p><p>Although I used to click off the SK AE mit absorbtion spell because it showed up in my beneficial effects, Because I don't like SKs.</p>

[Sprin]

<p><cite>Corydonn wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Any mage and some priests that know how to play can take a brawler out 1v1.</p></blockquote><p>yup... this... I'm pretty sure there are not many people left that know how to play their class in open PVP 1 v 1... people are so used to doin a bunch of Blue AOE's and the group of oppenents melting in the 40 vs 6 scenario that they think the opponent should melt that fast when they are 1 v 1 doing the same tactic...</p><p>L2Play your classes before you complain on here..</p><p>And yes thats mages and healers, brawlers are avoidance tanksf or a reason... spell damage is their weakness, so stop relying on the overly used melee healers to try and beat them...</p>

[Sprin]

<p>Remember back in the day when you actually had to know how to</p><p>A.) play your class and</p><p>B.) fight against specific classes in different ways depending on their class</p><p>c.) realize that some classes just had others they couldnt beat ever and others they could beat eaisly almost all the time</p><p>Nowadays everyone just goes up to every class and does the same thing and if they lose they come on here and complain that the class they just lost to is OP....</p><p>No its because you suck at the game and hit the same buttons in the same order for everything because real openworld PVP hasn't existed on this server long enough for you to know how to REALLY play your PL'd toon in real PVP...</p>

[Shuai]

<p>I'll repeat, find the best caster and put them up against the best brawler. I got my money on the brawler.  And I also got money that the best healer will end in a stalemate.</p>

[Shuai]

<p>And yeah I did PL my sin last week, open world has been hoppin'!! See all my kills?! Oh wait... I see what you did there....</p>

[Corydonn]

<p><cite>Shuai wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I'll repeat, find the best caster/healer you want, and put them up against the best brawler. I got my money on the brawler.</p></blockquote><p>It depends on the situation, in a straight one on one fight with the best mages and full cooldowns, a bruiser is going to win nearly every time with Combat Mastery. Monks would probably lose due to control effects being able to stop the Combat Mastery burn.</p><p>Edit: But bruisers have always been the 1v1 champs since RoK atleast, in a group situation they lose their luster as multiple mages and priests pop up, Not to mention other tanks to hold them down.</p>

[Shuai]

<p><cite>Corydonn wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Shuai wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I'll repeat, find the best caster/healer you want, and put them up against the best brawler. I got my money on the brawler.</p></blockquote><p>It depends on the situation, in a straight one on one fight with the best mages and full cooldowns, a bruiser is going to win nearly every time with Combat Mastery. Monks would probably lose due to control effects being able to stop the Combat Mastery burn.</p><p>Edit: But bruisers have always been the 1v1 champs since RoK atleast, in a group situation they lose their luster as multiple mages and priests pop up, Not to mention other tanks to hold them down.</p></blockquote><p>I like your straight up answers Cory <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> props. And a brawler should own me 1v1 obviously. I'm cool with that. Just don't think they should own EVERYONE 1v1. They need to have a bane... That's all I ask for.</p>

[Jab]

<p>Ahhh Ye ol´ class balance debate..</p>

[Corydonn]

<p><cite>Shuai wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Corydonn wrote:</cite></p><p>I like your straight up answers Cory <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" /> props. And a brawler should own me 1v1 obviously. I'm cool with that. Just don't think they should own EVERYONE 1v1. They need to have a bane... That's all I ask for.</p></blockquote><p>I've actually come to think of it... I've did lose a match 1v1 after RoK and it was against a conjuror from AB. The guy knew how to snare kite/pet taunt and only cast when it's safe to cast while using his temps to live through Sonic Punch + Drag. But the guy also was a god in Guild Wars PVP and was the only guy that could make me ragequit an arena champions battle back in the golden days.... Plus if any two summoners of mediocre skill trap me between two pet taunt locks... Yeah I'm toast there as well and pretty fast.</p><p>But probably the smartest thing I've seen a coercer do in a BG is stun lock me, Power drain me fully, and leave me alone. Without power I can't do a thing. I can't use my temps, I can't heal, I can't get off CAs to proc more power or heals. It's just a very bad time.</p>

[Kazzo]

<p>lol shnozz, so terrible</p>

[Notsovilepriest]

<p><cite>Corydonn wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Shuai wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Corydonn wrote:</cite></p><p>I like your straight up answers Cory <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" /> props. And a brawler should own me 1v1 obviously. I'm cool with that. Just don't think they should own EVERYONE 1v1. They need to have a bane... That's all I ask for.</p></blockquote><p>I've actually come to think of it... I've did lose a match 1v1 after RoK and it was against a conjuror from AB. The guy knew how to snare kite/pet taunt and only cast when it's safe to cast while using his temps to live through Sonic Punch + Drag. But the guy also was a god in Guild Wars PVP and was the only guy that could make me ragequit an arena champions battle back in the golden days.... Plus if any two summoners of mediocre skill trap me between two pet taunt locks... Yeah I'm toast there as well and pretty fast.</p><p>But probably the smartest thing I've seen a coercer do in a BG is stun lock me, Power drain me fully, and leave me alone. Without power I can't do a thing. I can't use my temps, I can't heal, I can't get off CAs to proc more power or heals. It's just a very bad time.</p></blockquote><p>Coercers dont have power drains anymore <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> That PvE change really sucked on PvP servers.</p>

[Shuai]

<p><cite>Kazzo wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>lol shnozz, so terrible</p></blockquote><p>I sense some anger management issues...</p>

[Sprin]

<p><cite>Shuai wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Corydonn wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Shuai wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I'll repeat, find the best caster/healer you want, and put them up against the best brawler. I got my money on the brawler.</p></blockquote><p>It depends on the situation, in a straight one on one fight with the best mages and full cooldowns, a bruiser is going to win nearly every time with Combat Mastery. Monks would probably lose due to control effects being able to stop the Combat Mastery burn.</p><p>Edit: But bruisers have always been the 1v1 champs since RoK atleast, in a group situation they lose their luster as multiple mages and priests pop up, Not to mention other tanks to hold them down.</p></blockquote><p>I like your straight up answers Cory <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" /> props. And a brawler should own me 1v1 obviously. I'm cool with that. Just don't think they should own EVERYONE 1v1. They need to have a bane... That's all I ask for.</p></blockquote><p>They have a bane, its been pointed out, what YOU want is to be able to kill a bruiser 100% of the time like you do with all other classes... you have made that very clear... you want assassins to be able to kill bruisers, and since they can't, you cry they are OP and should be nerfed, so that you may be able to kill them again... same old thing, different day</p>

[Shuai]

<p>Obviously you haven't been reading the thread very carefully. <strong><span style="text-decoration: underline;">Mages</span></strong> should be able to most of the time... If you look around you'd see pretty clearly I've pointed out I should lose any 1v1 with them. But again, you're just filled with rage and turning a mechanical discussion into name calling. Try to stay on topic and not sound like a hyped up tweenie.</p>

[Shuai]

<p><cite>Ghettoblaster@Nagafen wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Shuai wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Corydonn wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Shuai wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>find the best caster/healer you want, and put them up against the best brawler. I got my money on the brawler.</p></blockquote><p> in a straight one on one fight with the best mages and full cooldowns, a bruiser is going to win nearly every time with Combat Mastery. </p><p>Edit: But bruisers have always been the 1v1 champs since RoK atleast, </p></blockquote><p> And a brawler should own me 1v1 obviously.<strong> I'm cool with that</strong>. Just don't think they should own EVERYONE 1v1. </p></blockquote><strong>They have a bane, its been pointed out (????)</strong></blockquote><p>Figured I'd consolidate the topics since too many words may get rough for you. There's the conversation. How does your contribution make any sense? Oh yeah, it doesn't...) reading comprehension 101.... 3rd grade class?</p>

[Novusod]

<p>Brawlers main weakness is mages especially if there is more than one. An uniterupted mage can kill me in 5 seconds through parry and death prevent triggers. Even 1 v 1 a good Warlock with null caress can kill me if their port is lucky. Good Inquis SK and Pally are all really dangerous to brawlers. Brawlers have been rather killiable since GU57 when they nerfed fighter heals. As for scouts fettering poision is really anoying and if used right is more than enough to kite off my temps. How does an scout deal with a bard's veil of notes or the parry belt from the vintage merchant?</p>

[Shuai]

<p>Veil of notes isn't that bad really. The bard doesn't have enough dmg to make them a SUPER big threat yet. At least I haven't lost to one. Angelic is a good troub though and we've had some close encounters. When they are in full top faction pvp gear I guess is the only way to really tell.</p><p>P.S. Ssue is the only other decent bard I've come across and does well. We've never finished a 1v1 though due to gank squads showing up from one side or the other.</p><p>Parry belt doesn't work high level so no problems there.</p><p>P.S.S. And scouts aren't immune to strikethrough, so my meager single digit % still has some chance of hitting.</p>

[Shuai]

<p>But it's really not about a scout vs. a brawler, cause we know that outcome. But the top end brawlers aren't beatable by the top end anyone at the moment. I'll never be good agains them, and that's fine. I don't know if you're on corydonn's level or not so it's hard to say if you dying to a mage qualifies.</p>

[Talathion]

<p>They need to change it so it only has 10 triggers.</p><p>You will avoid 10 attacks and then its Dispelled, just like Battle Frenzy. </p><p>Double Attacks/Flurrys should also proc these triggers, just like Battle Frenzy.</p><p>Balance is fun, isn't it?</p>

[Shuai]

<p><cite>Failathion@Nagafen wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>They need to change it so it only has 10 triggers.</p><p>You will avoid 10 attacks and then its Dispelled, just like Battle Frenzy. </p><p>Double Attacks/Flurrys should also proc these triggers, just like Battle Frenzy.</p><p>Balance is fun, isn't it?</p></blockquote><p>maybe 15 or 20 cause it doesn't heal them... /shrug. Not a bad thought though.</p>

[Talathion]

<p><cite>Shuai wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Failathion@Nagafen wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>They need to change it so it only has 10 triggers.</p><p>You will avoid 10 attacks and then its Dispelled, just like Battle Frenzy. </p><p>Double Attacks/Flurrys should also proc these triggers, just like Battle Frenzy.</p><p>Balance is fun, isn't it?</p></blockquote><p>maybe 15 or 20 cause it doesn't heal them... /shrug. Not a bad thought though.</p></blockquote><p>Battle Frenzy can proc all at once even if your at 100% Health, and its only an 3.5% heal, Avoided blocks ALL damage, even double attacks afterwords.</p><p>Battle Frenzy usually uses all the triggers at once before it procs off all damage, so the 30 seconds buff is more like 2-3 second buff, if you are healed it does nothing and heals you for 3.5% regardless if you have max health or not, while avoidance keeps avoiding regular AND double attacks.</p><p>10 since it removes double attacks AND completely Negates Damage, they are lucky to get 10, maybe 7-8.</p><p>Avoidance also protects you against Melee DOTs.</p>

[Traxor]

<p><cite>Shuai wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>..................... nuff said. </p></blockquote><p>He mad. I belive you killed me while jumping away detargeting me constantly for over a minute. Complain?</p>

[Corydonn]

<p>Avoidance doesn't protect you from spells or taunts.</p><p>Battle Frenzy was nerfed because if you get one weaker scout player on you, Nobody could kill a zerker. It was making having newer/weaker players a super disadvantage just for attacking.</p>

[Shuai]

<p><cite>Traxor@Lucan DLere wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Shuai wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>..................... nuff said. </p></blockquote><p>He mad. I belive you killed me while jumping away detargeting me constantly for over a minute. Complain?</p></blockquote><p>Hmmm... I don't know your name yet, sorry. Are you considered a top end brawler?</p>

[Talathion]

<p><cite>Corydonn wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Avoidance doesn't protect you from spells or taunts.</p><p>Battle Frenzy was nerfed because if you get one weaker scout player on you, Nobody could kill a zerker. It was making having newer/weaker players a super disadvantage just for attacking.</p></blockquote><p>Same for Avoiding 90% of attacks, Weaker scout players with no Strikethrough or Accuracy cannot even hit you.. hey, your immune to strikethrough, they can't even hit you <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p>Battle Frenzy does not make you immune to MA.</p><p>Battle Frenzy can be dispelled by any mage/Crusader/Healers.</p>

[Talathion]

<p><cite>Corydonn wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Avoidance doesn't protect you from spells or taunts.</p><p>Battle Frenzy was nerfed because if you get one weaker scout player on you, Nobody could kill a zerker. It was making having newer/weaker players a super disadvantage just for attacking.</p></blockquote><p>Battle Frenzy was nerfed because of idiots who could not use a ranged attack on a zerker.</p><p>Honestly, a small heal for 15 triggers? thats worthless on a 5 minute recast, thats more of a 1 minute recast spell.</p><p>To be honest it was completely over-nerfed, now that you can get ALMOST the best gear from just crafted stuff their are no "weaker players" anymore, everyone is mostly the same.</p>

[Ilovecows]

<p>Mr. Zerker... please stop complaining about zerker nerfs.  Unless I am mistaken, the title of this thread is "Brawlers in PvP" not "Zerkers in PvP."  Please try to stay on topic.</p>

[Talathion]

<p><cite>Corydonn wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Avoidance doesn't protect you from spells or taunts.</p><p>Battle Frenzy was nerfed because if you get one weaker scout player on you, Nobody could kill a zerker. It was making having newer/weaker players a super disadvantage just for attacking.</p></blockquote><p>If MY buffs are only 15 triggers and prevent only heals up part of the damage, your buff should be 8-10 triggers, since it prevents ALL the damage AND the Multi-Attacks and Flurrys that come after.</p><p>My buff has twice the recast as your buff, make it 5 Triggers after that.</p><p>Problem Solved.</p>

[Toxicz]

<p>Honestly the only thing thats really imbalanced now are preds and brawlers, everything else is pretty in-line. I was in a BG today and got auto'd by a ranger in medicore gear, while im in full pvp gear and he took me from 100% to 22% with 1 auto. Brawlers can sit in the middle of 10 people and not die and possibly take 1-2 people with them before they die.</p>

[Shuai]

<p>Agreed, there's too much flurry on some of the gear... I haven't come up against a really well itemized non pred scout yet so I don't really know how big the disparity is. I don't have trouble with rangers though... But I'm rocking 3 mending adorns. 116 crit mit : /</p>

[Shuai]

<p>I'd love for Duels to actually be pvp rules so I could test this stuff better against people I know are well geared. Brawlers be NUTS!</p>

[Toxicz]

<p><cite>Shuai wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Agreed, there's too much flurry on some of the gear... I haven't come up against a really well itemized non pred scout yet so I don't really know how big the disparity is. I don't have trouble with rangers though... But I'm rocking 3 mending adorns. 116 crit mit : /</p></blockquote><p>They just need to change the mechanic to auto attacks. make it so flurry can't proc off a multi-attack. Also they need to change or tone down Pred's final trick.</p>

[Shuai]

<p><cite>Toxicz@Nagafen wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Shuai wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Agreed, there's too much flurry on some of the gear... I haven't come up against a really well itemized non pred scout yet so I don't really know how big the disparity is. I don't have trouble with rangers though... But I'm rocking 3 mending adorns. 116 crit mit : /</p></blockquote><p>They just need to change the mechanic to auto attacks. make it so flurry can't proc off a multi-attack. Also they need to change or tone down Pred's final trick.</p></blockquote><p>It can't flurry off of MA's... only first initial attack.</p>

[Toxicz]

<p><cite>Shuai wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Toxicz@Nagafen wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Shuai wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Agreed, there's too much flurry on some of the gear... I haven't come up against a really well itemized non pred scout yet so I don't really know how big the disparity is. I don't have trouble with rangers though... But I'm rocking 3 mending adorns. 116 crit mit : /</p></blockquote><p>They just need to change the mechanic to auto attacks. make it so flurry can't proc off a multi-attack. Also they need to change or tone down Pred's final trick.</p></blockquote><p>It can't flurry off of MA's... only first initial attack.</p></blockquote><p>I should have worded it better. You shouldn't be able to flurry and multi-attack off the same auto. That ranger I was talking about hit me 7 times with 1 auto, some of the hits were close to 3k. Idk...they need to change how auto's work, along with certain abilities from some classes, most are fine, but there are a few that are just outrageous. mainly some of the abilities Brawlers and Preds have.</p>

[Shuai]

<p>Was that in BG's toxicz?  Cause pve MA is working in there atm. It's stupid.</p>

[Novusod]

<p>Brawlers aren't nearly as powerful as you think. I am practically a free update for a certain paladin that loves to chain kill me.</p><p>In otherwords in the eyes of scissors the rock is over powered but paper is fine.</p>

[Darkor]

<p><cite>Novusod wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Brawlers aren't nearly as powerful as you think. I am practically a free update for a certain paladin that loves to chain kill me.</p><p>In otherwords in the eyes of scissors the rock is over powered but paper is fine.</p></blockquote><p>You cant quite compare this to scissors, rock and paper. Theres like 4 handfull of classes that you can kill and 2-3 that you have a problem with. Also you can always just turn arround and run away if a paladin attacks you, he will never be able to stop you. But brawlers on other hand can flurry like beasts and those flurrys can finish an opponent that is allready at half health. Ive experienced it myself quite a few times allready.</p>

[Magnis]

<p>A nerf brawler thread?! man I should really dust of my monk and test things out.</p><p>Did SOE finally fix sin/ranger/sk/pally/ inq(healers)???</p>

[Sprin]

<p><cite>Magnis@Nagafen wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>A nerf brawler thread?! man I should really dust of my monk and test things out.</p><p>Did SOE finally fix sin/ranger/sk/pally/ inq(healers)???</p></blockquote><p>Nah, its just a sin whining there is a class he cant insta-kill, the same old BS...</p><p>blah blah blah, im a scout and I want to kill everything all the time with no effort and if I can't it means they are OP and need a nerf blah blah blah...</p><p>Same song and dance... different day</p>

[Corydonn]

<p><cite>Novusod wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Brawlers aren't nearly as powerful as you think. I am practically a free update for a certain paladin that loves to chain kill me.</p><p>In otherwords in the eyes of scissors the rock is over powered but paper is fine.</p></blockquote><p>No offense but no paladin anywhere has the dps to take down a halfway decently geared brawler.</p>

[Talathion]

<p><cite>Corydonn wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Novusod wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Brawlers aren't nearly as powerful as you think. I am practically a free update for a certain paladin that loves to chain kill me.</p><p>In otherwords in the eyes of scissors the rock is over powered but paper is fine.</p></blockquote><p>No offense but no paladin anywhere has the dps to take down a halfway decently geared brawler.</p></blockquote><p>Heres my fight with a Brawler:</p><p>PARRY PARRY PARRY REPOSTE PARRY STONESKIN PARRY "HIT" (takes 12% of HP...), PARRY PARRY PARRY PARRY Reposte Stoneskin, PARRY PARRY hits, takes another 12%, hes at 80%, he heals. hes at 100%, PARRY PARRY PARRY PARRY Reposte, Reposte Reposte, PARRY parry.  (at this point theyre are 6-7 people beating on him) stoneskin, stoneskin, stoneskin, stoneskin, reposte, parry, parry, parry, parry, parry.</p><p>I put on my temp buff that gives me 100% strikethrough!</p><p>PARRY PARRY PARRY PARRY REPOSTE PARRY STONESKIN REPOSTE.</p><p>I've never heard the parry sound so much until I started fighting brawlers<img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" /></p><p>I think the only way I can kill a brawler is attack something else and hope my AE autoattack hits him. (which is what I do, usually).</p>

[Toxicz]

<p>The main problem with Brawlers atm is the amount of survivability they have along with the massive damage output they have as well. one or the other just needs to be toned down and everything will be fine. Brawlers atm are the SK's from TSO.</p>

[Cloakentuna]

<p><cite>Toxicz@Nagafen wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Shuai wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Toxicz@Nagafen wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Shuai wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Agreed, there's too much flurry on some of the gear... I haven't come up against a really well itemized non pred scout yet so I don't really know how big the disparity is. I don't have trouble with rangers though... But I'm rocking 3 mending adorns. 116 crit mit : /</p></blockquote><p>They just need to change the mechanic to auto attacks. make it so flurry can't proc off a multi-attack. Also they need to change or tone down Pred's final trick.</p></blockquote><p>It can't flurry off of MA's... only first initial attack.</p></blockquote><p>I should have worded it better. You shouldn't be able to flurry and multi-attack off the same auto. That ranger I was talking about hit me 7 times with 1 auto, some of the hits were close to 3k. Idk...they need to change how auto's work, along with certain abilities from some classes, most are fine, but there are a few that are just outrageous. mainly some of the abilities Brawlers and Preds have.</p></blockquote><p>Not to derail this thread as brawlers are pretty much the new TSO SK, potentially worse, but they should just put in a check on auto attacks.  Auto hits -> Check flurry -> If flurry, no MA.  If no Flurry -> Check MA.  Being able to flurry and MA on the same auto attack with the insane amounts of flurry and MA that are available is just dumb.</p>

[Sprin]

<p><cite>Froggleg@Nagafen wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Toxicz@Nagafen wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Shuai wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Toxicz@Nagafen wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Shuai wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Agreed, there's too much flurry on some of the gear... I haven't come up against a really well itemized non pred scout yet so I don't really know how big the disparity is. I don't have trouble with rangers though... But I'm rocking 3 mending adorns. 116 crit mit : /</p></blockquote><p>They just need to change the mechanic to auto attacks. make it so flurry can't proc off a multi-attack. Also they need to change or tone down Pred's final trick.</p></blockquote><p>It can't flurry off of MA's... only first initial attack.</p></blockquote><p>I should have worded it better. You shouldn't be able to flurry and multi-attack off the same auto. That ranger I was talking about hit me 7 times with 1 auto, some of the hits were close to 3k. Idk...they need to change how auto's work, along with certain abilities from some classes, most are fine, but there are a few that are just outrageous. mainly some of the abilities Brawlers and Preds have.</p></blockquote><p>Not to derail this thread as brawlers are pretty much the new TSO SK, potentially worse, but they should just put in a check on auto attacks.  Auto hits -> Check flurry -> If flurry, no MA.  If no Flurry -> Check MA.  Being able to flurry and MA on the same auto attack with the insane amounts of flurry and MA that are available is just dumb.</p></blockquote><p>Or just cap MA at 100% again for PVP...  the ability to MA 4+ times was so you could kill the new mobs that had 3 trillion HP in the expansion... Cap MA at 100% for PVP</p>

[Corydonn]

<p><cite>Toxicz@Nagafen wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>The main problem with Brawlers atm is the amount of survivability they have along with the massive damage output they have as well. one or the other just needs to be toned down and everything will be fine. Brawlers atm are the SK's from TSO.</p></blockquote><p>The amount of survivability is 90% procs. Those need to be looked into for all classes imo.</p>

[Talathion]

<p><cite>Corydonn wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Toxicz@Nagafen wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>The main problem with Brawlers atm is the amount of survivability they have along with the massive damage output they have as well. one or the other just needs to be toned down and everything will be fine. Brawlers atm are the SK's from TSO.</p></blockquote><p>The amount of survivability is 90% procs. Those need to be looked into for all classes imo.</p></blockquote><p>No, its your stupid avoidance + procs.</p><p>Im pretty sure the problem is Strikethrough Immunity, and Your Temporary Buffs, and your uncontested/Multi-Attack avoidance.</p><p>PARRY PARRY PARRY PARRY PARRY PARRY PARRY PARRY PARRY PARRY PARRY PARRY PARRY PARRY PARRY PARRY PARRY PARRY PARRY PARRY PARRY PARRY PARRY PARRY PARRY PARRY PARRY PARRY PARRY PARRY PARRY PARRY PARRY PARRY PARRY PARRY PARRY PARRY PARRY PARRY PARRY PARRY PARRY PARRY  PARRY PARRY PARRY PARRY PARRY PARRY PARRY PARRY</p><p>I have no problem killing anyone except brawler, and I die pretty easily too, time for a fix for your class my good friend, feel the pressure of "balance".</p>

[Corydonn]

<p><cite>Failathion@Nagafen wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I have no problem killing anyone except brawler, and I die pretty easily too, time for a fix for your class my good friend, feel the pressure of "balance".</p></blockquote><p>No not really. I still see Berserkers healing to full with 6 players on them with no target in range to proc attacks off of. I would like to see autoattack damage not be 90% of damage though with CAs and spells hitting a bit harder. I mean when my devastation fist hits for 1600 and my autoattacks are doing 3k+ per hit... Hmm...</p><p>I suppose I should fear those 2k 2k double attack PFT sniper shots from rangers.</p>

[Talathion]

<p><cite>Corydonn wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Failathion@Nagafen wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I have no problem killing anyone except brawler, and I die pretty easily too, time for a fix for your class my good friend, feel the pressure of "balance".</p></blockquote><p>No not really. I still see Berserkers healing to full with 6 players on them with no target in range to proc attacks off of. I would like to see autoattack damage not be 90% of damage though with CAs and spells hitting a bit harder. I mean when my devastation fist hits for 1600 and my autoattacks are doing 3k+ per hit... Hmm...</p><p>I suppose I should fear those 2k 2k double attack PFT sniper shots from rangers.</p></blockquote><p>Yeah I can heal for full with my 4 minute recast spell you got nerfed that only ticks 15 times and is gone instantly almost!</p><p>I see brawlers taking "no damage" with the same amount of people beating on them! WOOT!</p><p><span style="color: #cae0e6; font-family: verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 1px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 1px;">PARRY PARRY PARRY PARRY PARRY PARRY PARRY PARRY PARRY PARRY PARRY PARRY PARRY PARRY PARRY PARRY PARRY PARRY PARRY PARRY PARRY PARRY PARRY PARRY PARRY PARRY PARRY PARRY PARRY PARRY PARRY PARRY PARRY PARRY PARRY PARRY PARRY PARRY PARRY PARRY PARRY PARRY PARRY PARRY  PARRY PARRY PARRY PARRY PARRY PARRY PARRY PARRY</span></p>

[Tenka]

yeah that ca is pretty sad. i think they nerfed our lil full time reactive heal too.

[Twinbladed]

<p>I don't think the parry parry parry is the biggest issue with brawlers, lol they can like die heal die heal die heal, heal themself without dieing, cure dots, but one curious thing about the parry, why would you need those abilities when you guys dodge and parry enough without it? I don't care if you get nerfed or not, people want my class nerfed to, dps classes shouldnt do dps in pvp, but tanks,enchanters,bards, and healers should [Removed for Content]</p>

[Corydonn]

<p>Just a question, How many people actually get excited to be grouped with a brawler in a BG? I know my downfall is usually seeing the other team full of dirges vs my team full of none of the buffy goodness.</p>

[Sprin]

<p><cite>Twinbladed@Nagafen wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I don't think the parry parry parry is the biggest issue with brawlers, lol they can like die heal die heal die heal, heal themself without dieing, cure dots, but one curious thing about the parry, why would you need those abilities when you guys dodge and parry enough without it? I don't care if you get nerfed or not, people want my class nerfed to, dps classes shouldnt do dps in pvp, but tanks,enchanters,bards, and healers should [Removed for Content]</p></blockquote><p>LOL they dont dodge / parry enough without it... when you as a scout fight a brawler they use that stuff... and then kill you...</p><p>If you honestly think brawlers avoidance alone keeps them up, you need to go play a different game TBH...  and if you thought that, you wouldnt be complaining about all their heals and parry abilities, so you are very much contradicting yourself...   Face it bro, you are a scout that wants to win every fight he comes up to... hence your last "joke" which isnt a joke at all, you want all classes nerfed besides your assassin, so you can win every time with no effort, just like it used to be</p>

[Talathion]

<p>My Main problem is their avoidance, I would not have any trouble if I could hit them sometimes.</p>

[Notsovilepriest]

<p><cite>Ghettoblaster@Nagafen wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Twinbladed@Nagafen wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I don't think the parry parry parry is the biggest issue with brawlers, lol they can like die heal die heal die heal, heal themself without dieing, cure dots, but one curious thing about the parry, why would you need those abilities when you guys dodge and parry enough without it? I don't care if you get nerfed or not, people want my class nerfed to, dps classes shouldnt do dps in pvp, but tanks,enchanters,bards, and healers should [Removed for Content]</p></blockquote><p>LOL they dont dodge / parry enough without it... when you as a scout fight a brawler they use that stuff... and then kill you...</p><p>If you honestly think brawlers avoidance alone keeps them up, you need to go play a different game TBH...  and if you thought that, you wouldnt be complaining about all their heals and parry abilities, so you are very much contradicting yourself...   Face it bro, you are a scout that wants to win every fight he comes up to... hence your last "joke" which isnt a joke at all, you want all classes nerfed besides your assassin, so you can win every time with no effort, just like it used to be</p></blockquote><p>It does paired with procs for survivability, They don't need those temps to not get damaged much</p>

[Talathion]

<p><cite>Notsovilepriest@Nagafen wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Ghettoblaster@Nagafen wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Twinbladed@Nagafen wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I don't think the parry parry parry is the biggest issue with brawlers, lol they can like die heal die heal die heal, heal themself without dieing, cure dots, but one curious thing about the parry, why would you need those abilities when you guys dodge and parry enough without it? I don't care if you get nerfed or not, people want my class nerfed to, dps classes shouldnt do dps in pvp, but tanks,enchanters,bards, and healers should [Removed for Content]</p></blockquote><p>LOL they dont dodge / parry enough without it... when you as a scout fight a brawler they use that stuff... and then kill you...</p><p>If you honestly think brawlers avoidance alone keeps them up, you need to go play a different game TBH...  and if you thought that, you wouldnt be complaining about all their heals and parry abilities, so you are very much contradicting yourself...   Face it bro, you are a scout that wants to win every fight he comes up to... hence your last "joke" which isnt a joke at all, you want all classes nerfed besides your assassin, so you can win every time with no effort, just like it used to be</p></blockquote><p>It does paired with procs for survivability, They don't need those temps to not get damaged much</p></blockquote><p>Alot of their own class procs and stuff keeps them alive as well, 30% damage reduction when they are hit is insane, its like permament adrenaline... and guess how long that lasted?</p>

[Twinbladed]

<p><cite>Ghettoblaster@Nagafen wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Twinbladed@Nagafen wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I don't think the parry parry parry is the biggest issue with brawlers, lol they can like die heal die heal die heal, heal themself without dieing, cure dots, but one curious thing about the parry, why would you need those abilities when you guys dodge and parry enough without it? I don't care if you get nerfed or not, people want my class nerfed to, dps classes shouldnt do dps in pvp, but tanks,enchanters,bards, and healers should [Removed for Content]</p></blockquote><p>LOL they dont dodge / parry enough without it... when you as a scout fight a brawler they use that stuff... and then kill you...</p><p>If you honestly think brawlers avoidance alone keeps them up, you need to go play a different game TBH...  and if you thought that, you wouldnt be complaining about all their heals and parry abilities, so you are very much contradicting yourself...   Face it bro, you are a scout that wants to win every fight he comes up to... hence your last "joke" which isnt a joke at all, you want all classes nerfed besides your assassin, so you can win every time with no effort, just like it used to be</p></blockquote><p>Umm I didn't say I wanted every class nerfed, I have never said that, actually if you read what I  have said I said learn how to play your class, if you can't read don't talk lol.</p>

[Talathion]

<p>this isn't about that, its about balancing their rediculous avoidance.</p>

[Novusod]

<p><cite>Failathion@Nagafen wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>this isn't about that, its about balancing their rediculous avoidance.</p></blockquote><p>You might have a point if avoidance worked against spells too.</p>

[Jab]

<p>I so love when ppl start to defend obviously broken mechanics. It makes the game so much easier to balance out for the dev´s =)</p><p>I remember one guy telling me that the trick to beating zerkers (pre-nerf) was to stop hitting them. Brilliantly cleaver.</p><p>Dont hit me while i hit u was the masterplan. No joke or nothing, he was being 100% serious..</p><p>Anyways, i havent played in some time but i sure as hell remember brawlers as being massively OP interms of survivability in pvp. If they have gotten some more dps since then well, auch. I always thought that brawlsers would be kings of pvp if they had track and maybe a snare. Well rangers will always be kings wih their ability to do dmg from arcosss the room and from ontop of buildings where u cant get to em, or get away from em "hello fettering" =) Ups a small little bonus rant for ya all =)</p><p>I know i would def play one with all their cool tools and broken avoidence mechanics, and lets not forget their heals,deathsaves.</p><p>I saw this brawler going up against one of the heroics named before i stopped playing. The guy went from red to green like 5 times before finally killing the mob. The next day i tried to attack the same mob, lets just say i found my revive button pretty [Removed for Content] fast..I knew i was omw out the door after that.. Broken games are no fun =)</p><p>Edit:</p><p>To all you ppl using arguments like "Well if two or more mages are on me then i am in trouble" as to justify anything!!! Well doh, we are all in trouble with two mages on us. Dont be a tool.</p>

[Sprin]

<p><cite>Jabib@Nagafen wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Anyways, i havent played in some time</p></blockquote><p>Then why do you post on here as providing "facts"?  Go away</p>

[Oneira]

<p><cite>Corydonn wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Just a question, How many people actually get excited to be grouped with a brawler in a BG? I know my downfall is usually seeing the other team full of dirges vs my team full of none of the buffy goodness.</p></blockquote><p>QFT.  And the answer is, like, not very. </p><p>All this QQing about brawlers really overlooks how powerful some other classes are in pvp.  Pallys and Inqs anyone?</p>

[Twinbladed]

<p>The spell issue still not a factor, I can make my pvp crit mit high enough to the point those spell dont hit hard anymore, every class can do that.</p><p>All classes op if played right, I catch so much heat about a combat art thats on a long reuse timer, oh yeah an pred trick, kind of funny i have had other assassins hit me with all the same stuff with pred trick up didnt kill me, I have had ranger sniper shot me shot me tons of time, it didnt kill me, reason? My crit mit is high enough to avoid majority of critical damage. </p><p>Lilitian, or however you spell the name, beat me down with fear procs, i hit him/her an feared, over an over, that was a good idea whatever they did, because that fear was constant.</p><p>Brawlers if you kite them you get a way better chance of killing them.</p><p>Shadowknights and Paladins, can hit you while they are immune, no one says anything about that, They also get to cure everything and run around care free, just like a brawler.</p><p>Inq's can throw a immunity and lock you down, while doing pretty good dps.</p><p>Wardens have a stoneskin and regen power like crazy still. Throw out some melee and you got yourself a healer they can kill.</p><p>Bards can make themself immune to melee attacks, so what if there combat arts dont hit that hard they auto attack an flurry the same as all classes.</p><p>I don't feel like going threw all classes, but my point is no one is invincible.</p>

[Toxicz]

<p><cite>Twinbladed@Nagafen wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>The spell issue still not a factor, I can make my pvp crit mit high enough to the point those spell dont hit hard anymore, every class can do that.</p><p>All classes op if played right, I catch so much heat about a combat art thats on a long reuse timer, oh yeah an pred trick, kind of funny i have had other assassins hit me with all the same stuff with pred trick up didnt kill me, I have had ranger sniper shot me shot me tons of time, it didnt kill me, reason? My crit mit is high enough to avoid majority of critical damage. </p><p>Lilitian, or however you spell the name, beat me down with fear procs, i hit him/her an feared, over an over, that was a good idea whatever they did, because that fear was constant.</p><p>Brawlers if you kite them you get a way better chance of killing them.</p><p>Shadowknights and Paladins, can hit you while they are immune, no one says anything about that, They also get to cure everything and run around care free, just like a brawler.</p><p>Inq's can throw a immunity and lock you down, while doing pretty good dps.</p><p>Wardens have a stoneskin and regen power like crazy still. Throw out some melee and you got yourself a healer they can kill.</p><p>Bards can make themself immune to melee attacks, so what if there combat arts dont hit that hard they auto attack an flurry the same as all classes.</p><p>I don't feel like going threw all classes, but my point is no one is invincible.</p></blockquote><p>One thing that would fix brawlers is reducing throwing weapon damage. Back before there were completely OP ( in TSO ) you could kite a brawler and win. Now a brawler can probably hit you harder than you can hit them with ranged....</p>

[Shuai]

<p>Yeah, I dueled a couple newer brawlers, sixtysix and yamand or yamango or whatever it is. I won most of the fights until they ranged me and chunked me down. Brawlers ranged is beast.</p>

[Jab]

<p><cite>Ghettoblaster@Nagafen wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Jabib@Nagafen wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Anyways, i havent played in some time</p></blockquote><p>Then why do you post on here as providing "facts"?  Go away</p></blockquote><p>I didnt say for how long i havent played, nor did i say anything about what friends i have that still play the game.</p><p>But other then that. Make me =)</p><p>In before the deadline: Next time u quote something, make it relevant to the arguments.</p><p>Cheers.</p>

[Corydonn]

<p><cite>Toxicz@Nagafen wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>One thing that would fix brawlers is reducing throwing weapon damage. Back before there were completely OP ( in TSO ) you could kite a brawler and win. Now a brawler can probably hit you harder than you can hit them with ranged....</p></blockquote><p>Brawler ranged has always defeated scouts ever since RoK, Most brawlers just didn't use their bows in 1v1s or duels because of the ranged autoattack being different stats or something. Funny how most fighters and even some scouts would complain that I wasn't dueling fairly by going in and out of melee range to get some bow attacks off so their melee couldn't hit me back.</p>

[Blambil]

<p>There's always been a flavor of the month.. It's about the only certainty in PVP on Naggy.. Good to know it's now brawlers.. that explains the flood of low level brawlers/monks on their way up..</p><p>Brawlers are the new SK's... </p>

[Talathion]

<p><cite>Novusod wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Failathion@Nagafen wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>this isn't about that, its about balancing their rediculous avoidance.</p></blockquote><p>You might have a point if avoidance worked against spells too.</p></blockquote><p>So you can be killed by ... 5 classes out of 24?  (the rest of the classes spell damage couldn't get you to 75% HP with spells before you healed back up).</p><p>Conjurors/necromancers barley even PVP anymore. (I don't see Necros in BGs at all, and I see brawlers and scouts one shot them with autoattack <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> )</p><p>This is What I see when I go into BGs...</p><p>Brawlers/SKs/Wardens/Assassins/Rangers</p><p>(Some Warlocks, and then an assortment of other classes like Dirge)</p>

[Talathion]

<p>Need a change!</p>

[Proud_Silence]

<p><cite>Corydonn wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Toxicz@Nagafen wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>One thing that would fix brawlers is reducing throwing weapon damage. Back before there were completely OP ( in TSO ) you could kite a brawler and win. Now a brawler can probably hit you harder than you can hit them with ranged....</p></blockquote><p>Brawler ranged has always defeated scouts ever since RoK, Most brawlers just didn't use their bows in 1v1s or duels because of the ranged autoattack being different stats or something. Funny how most fighters and even some scouts would complain that I wasn't dueling fairly by going in and out of melee range to get some bow attacks off so their melee couldn't hit me back.</p></blockquote><p>Brawler ranged beat scout ranged since ROK ? I realize you think very highly of yourself since you have the best PVE gear available in the game and i can imagine that can cloud ones judgement. But have you been pvp'ing in ROK times ? The only chance to get down a brawler as a scout was to kite them. talking even geared toons here.</p><p>And on a side note, you think you're the god of pvp, but it boils down to gear advantages combined with exploiting broken mechanics. You're constantly using D&C + feign, and other lock taunts + feign to force people to lose target.</p><p>its not hard to kill people when you have the highest dmg weapons both in close combart and ranged combat, coupled with at least 22sec of complete immunity to melee, a fast recast complete heal, myth heal, multiple stoneskins vs melee and magic and 3 death save triggers that pop you back to nearly 100% hp each time. And to top it of, you have zero limitations to dmg output while being immune to all that.</p><p>You also run away when all your gimmicks are on cooldown, not much of a champ there.</p>

[Talathion]

<p><cite>Proud_Silence wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Corydonn wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Toxicz@Nagafen wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>One thing that would fix brawlers is reducing throwing weapon damage. Back before there were completely OP ( in TSO ) you could kite a brawler and win. Now a brawler can probably hit you harder than you can hit them with ranged....</p></blockquote><p>Brawler ranged has always defeated scouts ever since RoK, Most brawlers just didn't use their bows in 1v1s or duels because of the ranged autoattack being different stats or something. Funny how most fighters and even some scouts would complain that I wasn't dueling fairly by going in and out of melee range to get some bow attacks off so their melee couldn't hit me back.</p></blockquote><p>Brawler ranged beat scout ranged since ROK ? I realize you think very highly of yourself since you have the best PVE gear available in the game and i can imagine that can cloud ones judgement. But have you been pvp'ing in ROK times ? The only chance to get down a brawler as a scout was to kite them. talking even geared toons here.</p><p>And on a side note, you think you're the god of pvp, but it boils down to gear advantages combined with exploiting broken mechanics. You're constantly using D&C + feign, and other lock taunts + feign to force people to lose target.</p><p>its not hard to kill people when you have the highest dmg weapons both in close combart and ranged combat, coupled with at least 22sec of complete immunity to melee, a fast recast complete heal, myth heal, multiple stoneskins vs melee and magic and 3 death save triggers that pop you back to nearly 100% hp each time. And to top it of, you have zero limitations to dmg output while being immune to all that.</p><p>You also run away when all your gimmicks are on cooldown, not much of a champ there.</p></blockquote><p>With Temp buffs they are "near" immortal to melee for 1 minute and 30 seconds, and then in that next 30 seconds they are vulnerable, but then they're stuff is up again, gotta kill them 4 times in that 30 seconds.</p><p>What I don't like is, He can hit me always, Flurry/MA me and heal as much as much AND he has more mitigation (Monks/Brawlers have more mitigation then plate tanks in Velious) and I can't hit him for nearly 90% of the time!</p>

[Corydonn]

<p><cite>Proud_Silence wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Corydonn wrote:</cite></p><p>Brawler ranged beat scout ranged since ROK ? I realize you think very highly of yourself since you have the best PVE gear available in the game and i can imagine that can cloud ones judgement. But have you been pvp'ing in ROK times ? The only chance to get down a brawler as a scout was to kite them. talking even geared toons here.</p><p>You also run away when all your gimmicks are on cooldown, not much of a champ there.</p></blockquote><p>             Don't forget I stack Rune of Mending/Blasting addornments and Blood Ritual and Symphony procs! I've never said I was a good pvper, I've always claimed and known it was me getting the gear before everyone else that made me look good, And since I raided in RoK you could count that as the same gear advantage.</p><p>             The thing that made brawlers the 1v1 champs actually started in RoK albeit a bit later in the expansion, Once you got the power proc from RE2 it made a bruiser nearly impossible to kill since a geared one would be able to live on through his self heal outhealing all the dps in a 1v1 and since you never worried about running out of power, You could infinitely use it. I'm not saying it's player skill like you seem to assume, I'm saying mechanics wise since RoK... Bruisers have trumped all the other classes, Probably fueling the arguement that they need a nerf and the only counter arguement I have is... Do bruisers really offer that much to a group or raid in a PVP scenario that makes them too OP?</p><p>          And to comment on your last statement, Why not run away when you know you are going to die or get yourself in a heap of trouble and wait for some of your survivablity cooldowns to come down. I'm not going to charge players in UO unprepared and out of potions from my last fight and it's not to wise to stand out in the open without shields in Halo or other FPSes.</p>

[Talathion]

<p><cite>Corydonn wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Proud_Silence wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Corydonn wrote:</cite></p><p>Brawler ranged beat scout ranged since ROK ? I realize you think very highly of yourself since you have the best PVE gear available in the game and i can imagine that can cloud ones judgement. But have you been pvp'ing in ROK times ? The only chance to get down a brawler as a scout was to kite them. talking even geared toons here.</p><p>You also run away when all your gimmicks are on cooldown, not much of a champ there.</p></blockquote><p>             Don't forget I stack Rune of Mending/Blasting addornments and Blood Ritual and Symphony procs! I've never said I was a good pvper, I've always claimed and known it was me getting the gear before everyone else that made me look good, And since I raided in RoK you could count that as the same gear advantage.</p><p>             The thing that made brawlers the 1v1 champs actually started in RoK albeit a bit later in the expansion, Once you got the power proc from RE2 it made a bruiser nearly impossible to kill since a geared one would be able to live on through his self heal outhealing all the dps in a 1v1 and since you never worried about running out of power, You could infinitely use it. I'm not saying it's player skill like you seem to assume, I'm saying mechanics wise since RoK... Bruisers have trumped all the other classes, Probably fueling the arguement that they need a nerf and the only counter arguement I have is... Do bruisers really offer that much to a group or raid in a PVP scenario that makes them too OP?</p><p>          And to comment on your last statement, Why not run away when you know you are going to die or get yourself in a heap of trouble and wait for some of your survivablity cooldowns to come down. I'm not going to charge players in UO unprepared and out of potions from my last fight and it's not to wise to stand out in the open without shields in Halo or other FPSes.</p></blockquote><p>Its pretty easy to live when your health doesn't move for 1.5 minutes and your Flurrying/MAing people for 22k Damage a swing.</p>

[Crismorn]

<p>This game is not balanced with 1v1's in mind so yeah some classes are alot better than others at 1v1.</p><p>The only "fixes" I see that brawlers could be hit with is for SoE to finally do something about avoidance in pvp "ie. cap it at say ~80%" and possibly lessen the duration of that new aa that basically gives their group a dirge mythical.</p>

[Corydonn]

<p><cite>Crismorn wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>This game is not balanced with 1v1's in mind so yeah some classes are alot better than others at 1v1.</p><p>The only "fixes" I see that brawlers could be hit with is for SoE to finally do something about avoidance in pvp "ie. cap it at say ~80%" and possibly lessen the duration of that new aa that basically gives their group a dirge mythical.</p></blockquote><p>It's 12 seconds which is about 2-3 ranged autos at cap, If a good enchanter spots it they can CC most of the group provided it's not filled with a templar warrior or SK. And I agree at giving scouts/priests a focus effect on armor or addornment that makes one of their CAs anti brawler avoidance when it's stacked by 2 or more scouts/priests or something.</p>

[SOE-MOD-02]

This post has moved: <a href="/eq2/posts/preList.m?topic_id=499962&post_id=5571244" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">/eq2/posts/preList.m?topic_id=49996...post_id=5571244</a> Trolling is not permitted.

[Chakos]

<p><cite></cite></p><p><cite>Talathion@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Corydonn wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Toxicz@Nagafen wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>The main problem with Brawlers atm is the amount of survivability they have along with the massive damage output they have as well. one or the other just needs to be toned down and everything will be fine. Brawlers atm are the SK's from TSO.</p></blockquote><p>The amount of survivability is 90% procs. Those need to be looked into for all classes imo.</p></blockquote><p>No, its your stupid avoidance + procs.</p><p>Im pretty sure the problem is Strikethrough Immunity, and Your Temporary Buffs, and your uncontested/Multi-Attack avoidance.</p><p>PARRY PARRY PARRY PARRY PARRY PARRY PARRY PARRY PARRY PARRY PARRY PARRY PARRY PARRY PARRY PARRY PARRY PARRY PARRY PARRY PARRY PARRY PARRY PARRY PARRY PARRY PARRY PARRY PARRY PARRY PARRY PARRY PARRY PARRY PARRY PARRY PARRY PARRY PARRY PARRY PARRY PARRY PARRY PARRY  PARRY PARRY PARRY PARRY PARRY PARRY PARRY PARRY</p><p>I<span style="color: #ff0000;"> have no problem killing anyone except brawler,</span> and I die pretty easily too, time for a fix for your class my good friend, feel the pressure of "balance".</p></blockquote><p>I just have to lol at you, as you first post the above, then follow it up later in the same thread with:</p><p>"</p><blockquote><p><cite>Failathion@Nagafen wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>this isn't about that, its about balancing their rediculous avoidance.</p></blockquote><p>You might have a point if avoidance worked against spells too.</p></blockquote><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">So you can be killed by ... 5 classes out of 24?</span>  (the rest of the classes spell damage couldn't get you to 75% HP with spells before you healed back up).</p><p>Conjurors/necromancers barley even PVP anymore. (I don't see Necros in BGs at all, and I see brawlers and scouts one shot them with autoattack <img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" /> )</p><p>This is What I see when I go into BGs...</p><p>Brawlers/SKs/Wardens/Assassins/Rangers</p><p>(Some Warlocks, and then an assortment of other classes like Dirge) "</p><p>So the same must be asked of you: So you can be killed by ... 2 classes out of 24? You claim to have no problem with any other class, so you feel brawlers need to be nerfed so that you can have no problem killing all 24? Stop crying so hard about 1 archetype being difficult for you, most have trouble with more than just the 1 -- even brawlers have those classes who can be difficult for them.</p><p></p>

[Crismorn]

<p>I'll repeat it again for you.</p><p>Eq2 pvp is not balanced for 1v1 gameplay, not now, not years ago and it wont happen in the future.</p><p>So yes some classes have an edge in 1v1 scenarios because once again this game is not balanced with 1v1s in mind, once you start getting 6v6 classes become much more balanced.</p>

[Talathion]

<p><cite>Chakos wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite></cite></p><p><cite>Talathion@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Corydonn wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Toxicz@Nagafen wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>The main problem with Brawlers atm is the amount of survivability they have along with the massive damage output they have as well. one or the other just needs to be toned down and everything will be fine. Brawlers atm are the SK's from TSO.</p></blockquote><p>The amount of survivability is 90% procs. Those need to be looked into for all classes imo.</p></blockquote><p>No, its your stupid avoidance + procs.</p><p>Im pretty sure the problem is Strikethrough Immunity, and Your Temporary Buffs, and your uncontested/Multi-Attack avoidance.</p><p>PARRY PARRY PARRY PARRY PARRY PARRY PARRY PARRY PARRY PARRY PARRY PARRY PARRY PARRY PARRY PARRY PARRY PARRY PARRY PARRY PARRY PARRY PARRY PARRY PARRY PARRY PARRY PARRY PARRY PARRY PARRY PARRY PARRY PARRY PARRY PARRY PARRY PARRY PARRY PARRY PARRY PARRY PARRY PARRY  PARRY PARRY PARRY PARRY PARRY PARRY PARRY PARRY</p><p>I<span style="color: #ff0000;"> have no problem killing anyone except brawler,</span> and I die pretty easily too, time for a fix for your class my good friend, feel the pressure of "balance".</p></blockquote><p>I just have to lol at you, as you first post the above, then follow it up later in the same thread with:</p><p>"</p><blockquote><p><cite>Failathion@Nagafen wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>this isn't about that, its about balancing their rediculous avoidance.</p></blockquote><p>You might have a point if avoidance worked against spells too.</p></blockquote><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">So you can be killed by ... 5 classes out of 24?</span>  (the rest of the classes spell damage couldn't get you to 75% HP with spells before you healed back up).</p><p>Conjurors/necromancers barley even PVP anymore. (I don't see Necros in BGs at all, and I see brawlers and scouts one shot them with autoattack <img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" /> )</p><p>This is What I see when I go into BGs...</p><p>Brawlers/SKs/Wardens/Assassins/Rangers</p><p>(Some Warlocks, and then an assortment of other classes like Dirge) "</p><p>So the same must be asked of you: So you can be killed by ... 2 classes out of 24? You claim to have no problem with any other class, so you feel brawlers need to be nerfed so that you can have no problem killing all 24? Stop crying so hard about 1 archetype being difficult for you, most have trouble with more than just the 1 -- even brawlers have those classes who can be difficult for them.</p></blockquote><p>More like, I want them nerfed because...</p><p>Their avoidance is way overpowered maybe?</p>

[Twinbladed]

<p><cite>SOE-MOD-02 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote>This post has moved: <a rel="nofollow" href="/eq2/posts/preList.m?topic_id=499962&post_id=5571244" target="_blank">/eq2/posts/preList.m?topic_id=49996...post_id=5571244</a> Trolling is not permitted.</blockquote><p>I agree in a group it is more balanced, but... mod person that link is broken, an i got a question do you GM play this game at all, it seems like when you get technical with them they don't know what to say and go back to so bs to qoute from there handbook..</p><p>Ok, as a mage you get the options of root,stoneskin items, double spell attacks up to 22% for most, an extra 10% for wizards, because the adorments are broken at the moment, that should kill a brawler.</p><p>Scouts rarely stand a chance in haties, with a brawler but sometimes it does happen after that 2nd heal there is that 15% chance you might kill one, i think bards have a better chance than any other scout</p><p>Plate tanks, you guys can increase your mit, heal yourself, some of you even have constant heal procs, i think thats a fair fight, you guys atleast can last over 22 seconds with a brawler.</p><p>Healers melee spec dont see a lot of dmg getting done, drop bombs on em maybe, but they knock you back an stun you every other second interrupts etc, so it would see kind of hard</p>

[Talathion]

<p><cite>Twinbladed@Nagafen wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>SOE-MOD-02 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote>This post has moved: <a rel="nofollow" href="/eq2/posts/preList.m?topic_id=499962&post_id=5571244" target="_blank">/eq2/posts/preList.m?topic_id=49996...post_id=5571244</a> Trolling is not permitted.</blockquote><p>I agree in a group it is more balanced, but... mod person that link is broken, an i got a question do you GM play this game at all, it seems like when you get technical with them they don't know what to say and go back to so bs to qoute from there handbook..</p><p>Ok, as a mage you get the options of root,stoneskin items, double spell attacks up to 22% for most, an extra 10% for wizards, because the adorments are broken at the moment, that should kill a brawler.</p><p>Scouts rarely stand a chance in haties, with a brawler but sometimes it does happen after that 2nd heal there is that 15% chance you might kill one, i think bards have a better chance than any other scout</p><p>Plate tanks, you guys can increase your mit, heal yourself, some of you even have constant heal procs, i think thats a fair fight, you guys atleast can last over 22 seconds with a brawler.</p><p>Healers melee spec dont see a lot of dmg getting done, drop bombs on em maybe, but they knock you back an stun you every other second interrupts etc, so it would see kind of hard</p></blockquote><p>Well, I heal from "hitting" my opponent, to bad I can't hit them, eh?</p>

[Twinbladed]

<p><cite>Talathion@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Twinbladed@Nagafen wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>SOE-MOD-02 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote>This post has moved: <a rel="nofollow" href="/eq2/posts/preList.m?topic_id=499962&post_id=5571244" target="_blank">/eq2/posts/preList.m?topic_id=49996...post_id=5571244</a> Trolling is not permitted.</blockquote><p>I agree in a group it is more balanced, but... mod person that link is broken, an i got a question do you GM play this game at all, it seems like when you get technical with them they don't know what to say and go back to so bs to qoute from there handbook..</p><p>Ok, as a mage you get the options of root,stoneskin items, double spell attacks up to 22% for most, an extra 10% for wizards, because the adorments are broken at the moment, that should kill a brawler.</p><p>Scouts rarely stand a chance in haties, with a brawler but sometimes it does happen after that 2nd heal there is that 15% chance you might kill one, i think bards have a better chance than any other scout</p><p>Plate tanks, you guys can increase your mit, heal yourself, some of you even have constant heal procs, i think thats a fair fight, you guys atleast can last over 22 seconds with a brawler.</p><p>Healers melee spec dont see a lot of dmg getting done, drop bombs on em maybe, but they knock you back an stun you every other second interrupts etc, so it would see kind of hard</p></blockquote><p>Well, I heal from "hitting" my opponent, to bad I can't hit them, eh?</p></blockquote><p>Blood Rage procs when you are being hit, you get a heal at 30% health from aa weapon counter hits the person hitting you. So if counter attacks are being parried that sounds like a broken mechanic.</p>

[Shuai]

<p><cite>Crismorn wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I'll repeat it again for you.</p><p>Eq2 pvp is not balanced for 1v1 gameplay, not now, not years ago and it wont happen in the future.</p><p>So yes some classes have an edge in 1v1 scenarios because once again this game is not balanced with 1v1s in mind, once you start getting 6v6 classes become much more balanced.</p></blockquote><p>EQ2 is not balanced for GROUP gameplay. Take a good premade 6v6, neither group will ever wipe. The best BEST you're goign to do is kill 1 or 2 of them before they get insta rezzed by the cleric. Power draining? Oh yeah, even if you kill them they'll get rezzed with power, or if the cleric endline is up, full health and power and no rez effects... castable while dead. </p><p>Pre GU60, a good group vs group was fun. Solo was a bore. Now solo is the only way to go cause group vs  group is never ending.</p>

[1jesse1]

<p>Beserkers do not heal enough from being hit to deal with a brawler. They get way too much flurry from cheesy pve items. And you cannot hit them because of avoidance.  I had a 3 v 1 on jet last over 10 minutes. </p><p>Anyone here who is saying brawlers arent op is either A) a brawler or B) Clueless.</p><p>Sorry you should not be the absolute master of all mellee clases, almost all mage classes, and most healers.</p><p>Fix brawler pvp avoidance. I would gladdly give up all my warrior mitigation and "heal procs" which have been nerfed to [Removed for Content] btw, to be able to avoid 99 out of 100 hits. </p><p>Thank god they get all that damage reduction when 1 hit does land... And those save deaths rock too.</p><p>LEts face it. Brawler is a cheap cheesy no skill 1 good brawler out of 100 on the server op pos class.</p><p>And the Devs dont care.</p>

[Twinbladed]

<p><cite>Cartell@Lucan DLere wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Beserkers do not heal enough from being hit to deal with a brawler. They get way too much flurry from cheesy pve items. And you cannot hit them because of avoidance.  I had a 3 v 1 on jet last over 10 minutes. </p><p>Anyone here who is saying brawlers arent op is either A) a brawler or B) Clueless.</p><p>Sorry you should not be the absolute master of all mellee clases, almost all mage classes, and most healers.</p><p>Fix brawler pvp avoidance. I would gladdly give up all my warrior mitigation and "heal procs" which have been nerfed to [Removed for Content] btw, to be able to avoid 99 out of 100 hits. </p><p>Thank god they get all that damage reduction when 1 hit does land... And those save deaths rock too.</p><p>LEts face it. Brawler is a cheap cheesy no skill 1 good brawler out of 100 on the server op pos class.</p><p>And the Devs dont care.</p></blockquote><p>Think you missed my point, every single class in this game has a weakness to another one. I have a hard time with tanks, and yes 22 seconds of immunities is a bit long especially when all you do is melee, but look at bards, they get the same stuff now, only difference is brawlers get way more survival skills, bard refuses to fight you after there stoneskin is off, brawler on the other hand can heal,cure dots, stoneskin, an die like three times, parry melee, they got the best of all worlds but... so do shadowknights and pally's, if they do it right. As far as regular melee having a chance nope lol, it could be toned down just dont think it should be totally pushed away, the reviving 100000 times i dont really agree with in pvp, honestly i think 0 classes should be able to revive in pvp lol. Look at a GOOD healer, there not even barely killable anymore, then when you kill someone in there group instant res happens, so the fights last like ten years, I got in a fight with a inq, who i guess equiped all the fear items known to man, everyother swing after my fear pot went down, i was feared. Take procs out of pvp, wonder what would happen. That one pvp ring mages gets procs like crazy, its hit hit stoneskin, hit hit, stoneskin, then when you get them to 30% some of them get that added bonus of dodge and a ward, then thats when manasheild comes in an as long as they feed it with that aa they got, they survive even longer. The real reason scouts heal so much, procs off gear, has nothin to do with the class, they get a few heals from certain things other than that its useless, get rid of procs, slim down some of the re-tarded stuff like parry parry parry, or better yet, just don't let them attack while its going. If you got an aa and it doesn't allow the op to hit you at all, then you shouldn't be allowed to hit them either till its down. </p>

[1jesse1]

<p><cite>Twinbladed@Nagafen wrote:</cite></p><p><span style="color: #444444; font-family: verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 11px;">Take procs out of pvp, wonder what would happen.</span></p><p>At a minimum remove pve procs from working. </p><p>They already changed MA and SDA, Pot and CB into pvp stats. There is no reason to not finish the job with procs and</p><p>blue stats. Other then the fact that if they did that the "Item Gods" would be forced to put out a high tier pvp set of</p><p>armor and ton of new jewelery. Why not make crazy pvp pieces that take like 1k + tokens per piece? Have nifty procs</p><p>but make them accessable through pvp effort.</p><p>I gues thats all just wishfull thinking.</p><p>Either way though brawlers are still op and I hate them.</p>

[Shuai]

<p>Na, rare procs is pretty much what makes pvp in eq2 most enjoyable for me. I like the procs, even those that are a lil' on the OP side. I don't mind the fears, the stone skins... My only beef worth mentioning at the moment is rez recast and/or cast time, and brawlers. Granted I don't think brawlers deserve a huge nerf, but something to make them more vulnerable to mages would be nice, even if it's just a nerfed ranged auto attack. A brawler by definition should pwn me. Crusaders aren't very OP in my eyes, neither are bards. I mean it was so pointless to play a bard in pvp for a while, giving them some love was a good idea. </p>

[Twinbladed]

<p><cite>Shuai wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Na, rare procs is pretty much what makes pvp in eq2 most enjoyable for me. I like the procs, even those that are a lil' on the OP side. I don't mind the fears, the stone skins... My only beef worth mentioning at the moment is rez recast and/or cast time, and brawlers. Granted I don't think brawlers deserve a huge nerf, but something to make them more vulnerable to mages would be nice, even if it's just a nerfed ranged auto attack. A brawler by definition should pwn me. Crusaders aren't very OP in my eyes, neither are bards. I mean it was so pointless to play a bard in pvp for a while, giving them some love was a good idea. </p></blockquote><p>The only thing I don't really agree with an it goes for any class, this is seriously my only pvp complaint right now,(besides 30 minute group fights)  the ability to hit someone when you can not hit them back. If your going to have immunities to something, I don't understadn why you should be able to smack someone while they are on. I would let healers still be able to heal with it on, if you play a class that has some what decent dps and throw on a immunity an start pounding someone an they can't even hit you back, the concept just seems a little backwards.</p>