Unraveling ancient history of EQ1 - Part III [Archive]

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Mixxit

06-04-2011, 04:20 PM

Section B - PlacesCity of Nokk (serpents spine area)<img src="http://loreofnorrath.files.wordpress.com/2011/06/archarcanist-kirstmycl.png" width="452" height="500" /><div>Archarcanist Kirstmycl says 'Well, that is interesting. I have been studying the teleportation [portals] for many years in order to refine our understanding of them.'You say, 'history'Archarcanist Kirstmycl says 'Despite what you may have heard, the Combine did not create the original portals that you see on Norrath. They were created by a civilization so ancient that their name has been lost in time. While some of them have obviously failed, that any of them work at all with how ancient they are is amazing. The great combine wizard [Kra Raptha] was the first to discover how to use them, and completed the most comprehensive study on this lost civilization while he was researching the portals.'You say, 'kra raptha'Archarcanist Kirstmycl says 'While Kra Raptha had many theories about the lost civilization, even his in-depth research only gave him enough information to make wild speculations. He even went so far as to say that Druzzil influenced beings from another world to make the portals on Norrath. While I am not always sure of his conclusions on the ancient civilization, one cannot fault his [research] on the portals.'You say, 'research'Archarcanist Kirstmycl says 'His in-depth research led to our knowledge of the teleportation spires and pyramids that are scattered across Norrath. He was also the first to create new portals and created the fanciful one that you can see in the swampland outside the ruined city of Nokk. Through Kra Raptha we have gained the ability to [create] our own portals.'You say, 'create'Archarcanist Kirstmycl says 'Kra Raptha was truly a great wizard and we have not been able to duplicate the form that he used in the portal outside of Nokk. We have since gone back to using the more traditional form of pyramids and spires when we create new portals as we find the unity in form to be pleasing. Additionally the spires and pyramids allow for better focusing of the energies and allow us to do things the original portals never did. We also learned a few things about teleportation from the [Shissar].'You say, 'shissar'Archarcanist Kirstmycl says 'The portals that you see with the spinning rings are of Shissar design and use a vacuum that allows travel in time and space. The Shissar we welcomed here gave us the knowledge to escape Seru and teleport to Luclin. We have even incorporated some of the enchantments into the portals you will find around this city allowing for better control and multiple destinations with one portal.'</div>

Cusashorn

06-04-2011, 05:05 PM

Ahh, heading into the non-canon part of our universe, huh?

Mixxit

06-04-2011, 09:28 PM

Tsaph's Katta's statis a major event thank you very much!

Rainmare

06-04-2011, 09:39 PM

while Katta's statis/attempted assassination may be canon, the city he's is supposedly in Katta Castrum I think is the name, is not. nor is it that any shissar stayed behind, or anything else of that matter.

Mixxit

06-04-2011, 09:42 PM

Wrong!

Aneova

06-04-2011, 09:46 PM

<cite>Mixxit@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>Wrong!</blockquote>Why?

Mixxit

06-04-2011, 09:47 PM

because it's a major event

Cusashorn

06-04-2011, 10:00 PM

Ok, not even I try to pass off facts like this with such little argument to defend myself with. Everything, and I mean *EVERYTHING* that happened in The Burning Sea expansion in EQlive is not canon to EQ2 in any way. The lore with the assassination attempt on the leader of the Combine Empire was introduced to us when Luclin came out, and the loyalists build Katta Castellum on the dark side of Luclin... but that's where the story ends as far as we're concerened.

Mixxit

06-04-2011, 10:02 PM

It didn't happen in the burning sea it happened way before, the expansion is set after the timeline split but the major events it talks about are pre timesplitAnd yes you do <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Rainmare

06-04-2011, 10:05 PM

the Major Event is Katta's attempted assassination.the actually story of his assassination attempt mentions NOTHING of any city/area he may have been located to. as a matter of fact, the original story I believe makes it clear that they kept where he is SECRET for the express purpose of avoiding a future attempt by Seru's faction.that is the officially canon on Tsaph Katta. Seru attempted to kill him with a drug on his gloved hand, and that attempt all but suceeded, with druids place Katta into an arcane form of cryostasis in an undisclosed location. that's it.the city in the buried sea, the involvement of the shissar, all of that, is not canon to EQ2. as far as EQ2 is concerned, Tsaph Katta could very well be somewhere on Faydwer/in one of the many undisclosed 'shattered land' islands/Kunark/Velious...we just haven't found him.which means Katta Castrum may well not exist nor any of the locations it's refering to in that text. that NPC your talking to, and the great wizard he's talking about, may not exist in EQ2, as there very well could not be a Katta Castrum to begin with.

Mixxit

06-04-2011, 10:12 PM

Please don't bring up the poisoning, nobody is disputing that - what i'm saying is that placing major races and the Combine Empire's emperor no less into a combine city long before the events of Planes of Power is a major event and Vhalen said specifically he worked closely with all 3 games to ensure major events were consistent

Cusashorn

06-04-2011, 11:34 PM

Yes, but Vhalen didn't write anything for EQlive's expansions after he moved to the EQ2 team. Everything about a Combine city named Katta Castrum located deep under the sea, and the sudden re-emergence of the Shissar and the Kedge... none of that is canon to EQ2.You're trying to pass off a grandfather clause for your argument, saying that because this city even existed at any one point, before or after EQ2 started, then it automatically means it happened BEFORE EQ2.Well guess what? According to the Dragons of Norrath expansion, there were dragons living in a place called The Hive, deep underneath Everfrost Peaks for thousands of years before the expansion was introduced. I shouldn't have to tell you that it was the events in that expansion that lead the Dragons to infuse their essence into a group of Humans and create the Drakkin as a result.But guess what? The Drakkin officially CANNOT and DO NOT exist because they were created as the result of events that started after the EQ2 time split. Does that mean that in EQ2, there are still dragons living underneath Everfrost because they had been down there for thousands of years?Nope. They don't exist because they're not part of our continuity and never were. The same applies to Katta Castrum. Just because it was written into the lore that it had been down there from the very start in an expansion that came out after EQ2 doesn't mean it applies to EQ2.If I were the lead lore writer for EQlive, I could easily write up a 3rd grade storyline that effectively retcons the entire Planes of Power expansion out of the game, in which the Plane of Time itself never existed, therefor the time split never could have happened because Zebuxoruk was never imprisoned in the first place, and therefor no attempts were ever made to free him, and everything that has happened in EQ2 never happened. Chances are you would believe that.

Rainmare

06-04-2011, 11:42 PM

except that placing him there was done AFTER PoP, and there's no other indication of him even being IN a combine city beforehand.that is the problem here. we all know Katta was 'assassinated' by Seru. no one disputes that event. but the story you are refering to here, is from a city that supposedly Katta was moved to after the attempt on his life, and his 'suspended animation' to keep him 'alive'. there is no mention, ever, until that EQ1 expansion WHERE katta went. in fact, the oficial story doesn't put him in a Combine city at all:Tsaph Katta, emperor of the troubled combine was holding a grand state banquet. Almost all nations and tribes were in attendance. The dwarven, gnomish, and elven allies all had ambassadors on hand as did the belligerent <a href="http://fossworld.ath.cx/lore/darkelves.htm">Teir'Dal</a>. Even the <a href="http://fossworld.ath.cx/lore/ogres.htm">ogres</a> and <a href="http://fossworld.ath.cx/lore/trolls.htm">trolls</a> were represented. All who received an invitation felt compelled to attend, such was the might and the power of the Combine. As the guests entered the banquet hall, Katta was there to receive them. One guest came with a smile on his lips and poison in his hand. He had dusted his glove with empolomine, a slow-killing, hallucination-inducing drug. The guest extended his hand as Tsaph welcomed him to the banquet. With the handshake the fate of the Combine was changed. Katta's reaction was more rapid and violent then most and he collapsed during the dinner, appearing as one possessed. Possessed by evil, some muttered. The banquet hall was cleared, and only a trusted few were allowed to remain. As Katta lay on the floor, dying, he spoke his last breath into the ear of his closest advisor, a fellow bard named Lcea. The <a href="http://fossworld.ath.cx/lore/druids.htm">druids</a> then came and wove stasis spells to keep him alive, and put a deep sleep charm on him so that he would not have to endure pain and suffering. Then the <a href="http://fossworld.ath.cx/lore/woodelves.htm">elves of the forest</a> came and took Tsaph away, to hide him within their realm so that no further attempts on his life would be possible. As soon as word spread around the world that Katta was dead, the Combine Empire broke into a thousand tainted pieces. The petty arguments that had shattered the world before his coming resumed with even more passion. The <a href="http://fossworld.ath.cx/lore/elves.htm">elves</a> continued to keep watch over the resting-place of Tsaph Katta while a few loyal officials , led precariously by Lcea, fortified the Loyalists last remnants. This is why most of us don't consider Katta Castrum 'canon' to Eq2...and by extention, people/races that are supposedly there either.the Katta story ends much like King Arthur. Katta is taken away to the 'elven realm' to be cared for. no one knows where in that realm he is, or whats being done to care for him. Much like Arthur getting taken to Avalon...no one knows where it is, or what happens to him/is happening while he's there.in fact the idea of being taken to the elven realm hints that indeed he does NOT remain in the Combine Empire or any Combine city after his attempted assassination.

Mixxit

06-05-2011, 02:28 AM

Please don't go into a caps frenzy, I can read it perfectly fine without.If the Shissar are the ones that helped the Combine escape to Luclin and were housed in the buried city with the last of the surviving norrathian combine empire and it's ruler then I have to say that is a collection of pretty major historic events and with TBS being advertised as a huge lore expansion I don't think vhalen wouldn't have taken a peek, since he is one of the few people who would know ancient history like that.Now I'm not saying that Katta Castrum wasn't destroyed during the shattering/rendering, and I'm not saying that Tsaph Katta wasn't previously in some other elven location temporarily. I'm completely open to all of that. Some of you follow an EQ2 only timeline, some of us like to read the lore from all the games and try to work out vhalen's 'Universal Timeline' - that even includes other material like eqrpg (Ie the other thread that mentions the dark elf history) - you can't just jump in a thread like this and start your purist dogma on stuff you are still only guessing isn't part of eq2. Personally I think it's rather sad you close yourself to it so easily but then again the EQ1 players felt the same way about EQ2 so it's not new to me to see this.What I don't like however is when people state something that has not been in any of the lore of any games and they have just assumed it was fact, ie the Dracholiche lore - I think there should be references for all the discussions like this which I try my best to do by pasting lore that can be looked up. At least it's there in the universe and can still apply to this one. Really, you guys should lighten up a little and enjoy it more.

Mixxit

06-05-2011, 02:33 AM

<cite>Cusashorn wrote:</cite><blockquote>Well guess what? According to the Dragons of Norrath expansion, there were dragons living in a place called The Hive, deep underneath Everfrost Peaks for thousands of years before the expansion was introduced. I shouldn't have to tell you that it was the events in that expansion that lead the Dragons to infuse their essence into a group of Humans and create the Drakkin as a result.</blockquote>If you mean The Hive then that is part of the darkhollow expansion and is deep under nektulosIf you mean The Nest then that has always been on everquest 1 maps so i would say yes that existed in EQ2's past<img src="http://wiki.project1999.org/images/EQ1_WorldMap_0001.jpg" width="768" height="614" />

Aneova

06-05-2011, 03:10 AM

Pen and Paper RPG's are a guide, to say they influence anything in any Canon lore EQ1, 2, or future versions of the game, isn't possible. Yes they may utilize the same properties from the PC Titles but that's all.

Mixxit

06-05-2011, 03:12 AM

I disagree, infact I believe even the devs might like a story here or there in the EQRPG supplements and use them for lore in their own projects

Cusashorn

06-05-2011, 06:10 AM

<cite>Mixxit@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Cusashorn wrote:</cite><blockquote>Well guess what? According to the Dragons of Norrath expansion, there were dragons living in a place called The Hive, deep underneath Everfrost Peaks for thousands of years before the expansion was introduced. I shouldn't have to tell you that it was the events in that expansion that lead the Dragons to infuse their essence into a group of Humans and create the Drakkin as a result.</blockquote>If you mean The Hive then that is part of the darkhollow expansion and is deep under nektulosIf you mean The Nest then that has always been on everquest 1 maps so i would say yes that existed in EQ2's past<img src="http://wiki.project1999.org/images/EQ1_WorldMap_0001.jpg" width="768" height="614" /></blockquote>Yes, I was thinking of The Nest, and you still completely missed my point.

Aneova

06-05-2011, 01:15 PM

<cite>Mixxit@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>I disagree, infact I believe even the devs might like a story here or there in the EQRPG supplements and use them for lore in their own projects</blockquote>You can disagree all you like, doesn't make it any less true that the Pen and Paper world is what a Storyteller/Dungeon Master makes, and there for has no bearing on either PC titles.

Mixxit

06-05-2011, 02:25 PM

Yeah, then what about Aataltaal's tale?

Mixxit

06-05-2011, 02:42 PM

<cite>Aneova@Kithicor wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Mixxit@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>I disagree, infact I believe even the devs might like a story here or there in the EQRPG supplements and use them for lore in their own projects</blockquote>You can disagree all you like, doesn't make it any less true that the Pen and Paper world is what a Storyteller/Dungeon Master makes, and there for has no bearing on either PC titles.</blockquote>Who said anything about a DM's version of the eqrpg world being legit in EQ2 lol? I just don't get how that would work at all

Mixxit

06-05-2011, 02:46 PM

I'd rather you guys stayed on topic than go through all this again for like the 18,000 time - it seems your only input sometimes is to derail a thread. I've made my points very very clear and if you don't like that why keep unleashing your fury, cause really it's not working with me.

Cusashorn

06-05-2011, 11:38 PM

There's not much left to stay on topic about. anything else further discussed here would still be non-canon to this game.

Mixxit

06-06-2011, 12:07 AM

You just don't give up do you?Why can't you just discuss it for what it is

Rainmare

06-06-2011, 02:15 AM

because what it is, is a legend from a city that more then likely does not exist in EQ2, never did exist in EQ2, about a legendary wizard who no one ever heard of until that expansion, and his theories on teleportation.Katta Castrum blatantly retconed things to allow it's 'existance'. first, the story of the Loyalists going to Luclin had nothing to do with a city in the buried sea. and it was a joint effort of several that allowed it to happen, not the work of one 'legendary' figure...not to mention that the Seru followers were 'hot on thier heels' which woudn't have been possible if they translocated from a city no one knew about.The Shissar that stayed on Norrath were wiped out completely. thier empire didn't extend beyond Kunark, and those that escaped teleported themselves to Luclin and were so terrified they formed the Grey around thier home. Not to mention...the Shissar were unknown to the Combine (along with the Iksar) so how would the Shissar find this 'hidden' city in the first place before the Greenmist killed them?then there's the involvement of the Kedge. when we know the Kedge were extinct down to Phinny long before the Combine empire ever even formed. the entire story of Phinny states that he eradicated his entire race to get himself immortality. Our own Ethernaught stories indicate that the civilization was in ruins during Bayle's time, before the Combine empire formed.

Mixxit

06-06-2011, 04:31 AM

<cite>Rainmare@Oasis wrote:</cite><blockquote>The Shissar that stayed on Norrath were wiped out completely. thier empire didn't extend beyond Kunark, and those that escaped teleported themselves to Luclin and were so terrified they formed the Grey around thier home. Not to mention...the Shissar were unknown to the Combine (along with the Iksar) so how would the Shissar find this 'hidden' city in the first place before the Greenmist killed them?</blockquote><div><div><cite>Vahlar-Dev wrote:</cite><blockquote>The point you bring up about the Shissar existing about two thousand years before the Combine Empire humans is correct. Naturally, there is a story behind the appearance of the Shissar in this current expansion.The Kedge also has a story, as do the sphinx, but theirs is not quite so involved as the Shissar.Of course, I'm not going to tell you details here, but there is a reasonably detailed story behind the Shissars' apparent alliance with the Combine.<div></div></blockquote></div><cite>Vahlar-Dev wrote:</cite><blockquote>The kedge had nothing to do with saving the Shissar. It was the Combine that saved them, though that's probably overstating it. The Shissar have always had ulterior motives, which you will learn about. There are books that detail the history of the shissar and their relationship with the Combine, including Zhisza and the number of years they waited...in the dark...for their return to power.</blockquote></div><div><cite>Vahlar-Dev wrote:</cite><blockquote>Also, as to the Shissar existing in Norrath, I'm really surprised. If they exist on Luclin currently, isn't it feasible that they could also exist on Norrath? The Green Death took a year to envelope the race. Do you really think the nobles and leaders -- like Emperor Ssraeshza -- would sit around and just wait to be overcome by the mysterious illness? We already know he didn't and he wasn't alone... The story behind the existence of Shissar in Norrath is all laid out as the Combine were studious enough to pen a series of encyclopedia on the Shissar.What I find interesting is that for the one race which has the least reason for existing in our timeline, you have the fewest questions -- the kedge. In my view, this is because we've given no calendar for them. The kedge are one of the first three races on Norrath -- older than the Shissar and the humans. I intend to keep their background mysterious for a time because it's not a part of kedge culture to make records of time. For the Combine and Shissar it's more "in character.<div></div></blockquote></div> <cite>Vahlar-Dev wrote:</cite><blockquote>Quite often in our storylines, not everything is what it seems. Even though recorded history says something was wiped out completely...gone without a trace....doesn't make it absolute fact. It means someone recorded it as so. N'est-ce pas?I mean, consider this -- the Green Death took one year to "wipe" out the Shissar. Do you really think the upper echelon of the Shissar would just sit around waiting to get sick while their kin dropped like flies, as it were? Ahem...Can't wait to see you all in The Buried Sea!Vahlar</blockquote><div><cite>Saroc_Luclin wrote:</cite><blockquote>Kedge I don't have a problem with either; if even the God's can't easily create World-wide spells than I suspect even Phini would have trouble too. The surviving Kedge were likely on the edge of his death spell, seeing companions killed drove the survivors into hiding far from their homelands in case whatever killed the rest of their kind returned to finish the job.</blockquote><div><div><cite>Vahlar-Dev wrote:</cite><blockquote>Right Saroc. In original lore, Prexus put kedge in the waters across the globe of Norrath, not just in Dagnor's. <img src="/eq/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" /></blockquote></div></div><div></div><div>I really don't see a problem with Kedge having died due to the rending/sundering though</div></div><div></div><div><div><cite>Rainmare@Oasis wrote:</cite><blockquote>Katta Castrum blatantly retconed things to allow it's 'existance'. first, the story of the Loyalists going to Luclin had nothing to do with a city in the buried sea. and it was a joint effort of several that allowed it to happen, not the work of one 'legendary' figure...not to mention that the Seru followers were 'hot on thier heels' which woudn't have been possible if they translocated from a city no one knew about.</blockquote></div></div>The story of the city is a seperate story but the Shissar did aid them with their knowledge of teleportation<blockquote>And so it was decreed that Luclin would be the new home of the Loyalists. The Combine already possessed vast knowledge of teleportation. Using this knowledge on a grander scale would be the solution to their problem.</blockquote><blockquote>Arcanist Variszh says 'If I could [collect] those tomes and share them amongst those of us who want peace, it would help sway more out from under Saarisz's control. I do not believe this to be an impossible dream. If people could see why the Combine moved the city here and how our Zhisza helped them . . . he even gave them all the knowledge they needed to escape to the Luclin moon! Peace would be the only natural outcome if I meet success with this quest.'</blockquote><blockquote><blockquote><blockquote>Rashere tells the group, 'so, ages ago during the last days of the combine empire, they founded a city here in the buried sea on an island chain'</blockquote><blockquote>Rashere tells the group, 'When Tsaph Katta was poisoned, they brought him here to hide him away and try to find a cure'</blockquote><blockquote>Rashere tells the group, 'he was poisoned on norrath...its seru that fled to luclin'</blockquote><blockquote>Rashere tells the group, 'to help find a cure, the combine created habitats for other intelligent races who were thought to be endangered at the time'</blockquote><blockquote>Rashere tells the group, 'namely the sphinx and the kedge'</blockquote><blockquote>Rashere tells the group, 'and eventually, a sect of shissar who had locked themselves away from the green death made a pact with the combine to join them here as well' yeah, that's during the last days of the empire'</blockquote><blockquote>Rashere tells the group, 'So, the combine used these habitats both to pull knowledge from these races and also to perform experiments' 'right', 'Unfortunately, Prexus saw the combine experimenting on his chosen, the Kedge, and took offense to it...and sunk the entire island chain under the waters with the goal of destroying it all'</blockquote><blockquote>Rashere tells the group, 'the combine were powerful, though, and used the magic to create domes over the city and the habitats of these creatures (there were other habitats, but they were destroyed)'thus they've lain under the ocean until now' 'basically lost to time and prexus' act securing them from their foes' 'recently, though, the artifact that powers the domes has begun to weaken, the domes are cracking, and power is failing in the city'</blockquote><blockquote>Rashere tells the group, 'They have created a giant whirlpool that extends to the surface of the buried sea and has disrupted the shipping routes that deepwater knights used to patrol the area' 'in turn, the pirates of the area have grown bolder and are striking out to nearby areas including the barren coast where we stand''which brings us back to this beach 'the deepwater knights are now fighting a losing battle, the pirates are growing strong, and the combine are under siege in their city'</blockquote></blockquote> <blockquote>Even worse, the Combine faces a greater danger, as they are unaware of a fourth and deadly sanctuary: Silyssar, New Chelsith, a secret habitat created by the shissar as a staging point for their triumphant return to Norrath</blockquote></blockquote>

Rezikai

06-06-2011, 06:43 AM

<cite>Mixxit@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Rainmare@Oasis wrote:</cite><blockquote>There's sOO Much to speAk and siNg of Yet, not So whEn suCh little time weRe givEn To Scribe.</blockquote><div><div><cite>Vahlar-Dev wrote:</cite></div></div></blockquote>Mixx your points are well taken but I think your flaw is something the others are trying to say politely about the old EQ1 staff back then. They made up stuff...Vhalen said he left the eq1 team just after Ruins of Kunark. Which means he may have worked on Scars of Velious lore up to that point first-hand. However after most of the team had left you had 2nd and 3rd generation devs taking over who... eh how to put this nicely... took "liberties" to make their game the best adventure they could. Twisting what lore existed to that point (The universal eq timeline was still being made by Vhalen and others) so adventurers in EQ1 would have a great game to play without having to know the future was set into EQ2's time, a sequel.Hence the great time reset, a plot device used to seperate the games timestream so each continuity could follow their own documented lore and stories. Hence "New" stuff from the Combine empire was found, Dragons lived deep beneath some of the places in Norrath, and Xebuzork went from ... a ... friend.. into a lynchpin character in story arcs about finding the secrets of the gods. I wouldnt be surprised at all if the EQ1 dev team by 2002-2003 now its 5th generation old used stuff from the Codex of Wars beta lore mistakenly thinking it was canon for eq1.Vahlar seems nice. She seemed to want to honestly delve into the histories and pan out EQ1's plot lines even though by 2004 alot of the original templates for the stories probably had changed. For instance, a 4th extinct race of Elf... is known to be talked about by an NPC deep in Neriak in eq1. An NPC who's been there since 1999. In 2004 lorenuts talked about it and she said there wasnt alot of wiggle room on the issue that the Teir'Dal npc must have been talking about the Elddar Elves. Did Vahlar know about the Ydal and the possible Mayong connections? From her posts it seems she didnt. I like to think she didnt know because certain storytellers in SoE keep certain secrets about EQ even from each other for the sake of holding secrets back for plot lines and expansions to play out.This is why alot of post Plane of Time stuff is taken with a grain of salt for being canon b/c its After Split... after the Devs split the eq timeline.. as much as the history of Norrath taking shape. Hence they're world shapers needed ancient places to exist in history to make the current stories of eq1 fit so the ancient Combine city or dragons of DoN or other things fit.---To be fair I've heard tales of some EQ2 devs falling into the same starry eyed wanderlust about making legendary characters (Anashti or Vishra for example) and having to change the Timeline to fit these characters in. Changing that timeline is probably a b*** to do to. Since its been panned out and they know people like us literaly camp these board and EQ1's history boards like hawks every day. This is why I admire Kander, Kaitheel and Gninja .. or and the dwarf. They seem to understand (mostly) about not trying to deviate from the set path. Maybe the Freebloods may have been a bit of an overnighter but i'll forgive them if they keep Nostrolo and the other oldschoolers feel and timeline intact.

Mixxit

06-06-2011, 08:11 AM

Thanks rez,What really gets me upset is when I have to go through at least a page every single time explaining why I feel the lore could be canon in eq2 because of the universal timeline - it really throws the thread off topic and the interesting lore that is there and could be part of eq2 never gets discussed and instead it turns some sort of purist war.In reality the disputers have no evidence to prove its not in the big book of lore and instead of getting involved in the discussion start the 'Is Impossible' argument when in reality these very discussions are part of things that influence the game.For example, the Chelisth Stone topic we started on the eq1 boards years ago is a clear indication of how a popular discussion in eq1 forums post PoP can influence the direction of lore in eq2 just from the post count and fervor of the people discussing the topic - just as much as things in popular culture such as Vampires can effect a decision to go in a certain direction with EQ2.I happen to find certain lesser known parts of EQ1 lore really fascinating, the same goes for EQRPG, I feel they would make an interesting supplement to EQ2 given the right amount of cross checking which the people of this board can certainly help with as many heads are better than one (assuming it's not already been penned as part of the correct history). It's not an easy task for lore writers to come up with new material, they can't double check everything and are probably quite often scared to touch on areas because of the way some people react on these boards.Everything in this game is 'made up' and so is the lore in EQ1 and always was. I mean look at the background on Asmodius from EQExpress and some of the fan fiction, heck even the EQ1 site said that Iksar were made by Innoruuk at one point. Sadly, not every human is perfect and the Big Book of Lore and even the Universal Timeline no doubt contradicts itself from page to page given the right number of eyes.Shissar, Teleportation Spires, Combine History all make for a good piece of reading and are very popular topics and I don't see how the things I keep mentioning in this thread break any of the rules or history we know for EQ2, and I think the return of the shissar or at least understanding what could be possible about them, or the teleportation spires would be a good thing no matter which game it comes from. So I will continue to post links to things I find interesting in EQ1 and hope those that have no interest in it don't keep invading my threads.

Meirril

06-06-2011, 12:59 PM

<cite>Mixxit@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>Thanks rez,What really gets me upset is when I have to go through at least a page every single time explaining why I feel the lore could be canon in eq2 because of the universal timeline - it really throws the thread off topic and the interesting lore that is there and could be part of eq2 never gets discussed and instead it turns some sort of purist war.In reality the disputers have no evidence to prove its not in the big book of lore and instead of getting involved in the discussion start the 'Is Impossible' argument when in reality these very discussions are part of things that influence the game.For example, the Chelisth Stone topic we started on the eq1 boards years ago is a clear indication of how a popular discussion in eq1 forums post PoP can influence the direction of lore in eq2 just from the post count and fervor of the people discussing the topic - just as much as things in popular culture such as Vampires can effect a decision to go in a certain direction with EQ2.I happen to find certain lesser known parts of EQ1 lore really fascinating, the same goes for EQRPG, I feel they would make an interesting supplement to EQ2 given the right amount of cross checking which the people of this board can certainly help with as many heads are better than one (assuming it's not already been penned as part of the correct history). It's not an easy task for lore writers to come up with new material, they can't double check everything and are probably quite often scared to touch on areas because of the way some people react on these boards.Everything in this game is 'made up' and so is the lore in EQ1 and always was. I mean look at the background on Asmodius from EQExpress and some of the fan fiction, heck even the EQ1 site said that Iksar were made by Innoruuk at one point. Sadly, not every human is perfect and the Big Book of Lore and even the Universal Timeline no doubt contradicts itself from page to page given the right number of eyes.Shissar, Teleportation Spires, Combine History all make for a good piece of reading and are very popular topics and I don't see how the things I keep mentioning in this thread break any of the rules or history we know for EQ2, and I think the return of the shissar or at least understanding what could be possible about them, or the teleportation spires would be a good thing no matter which game it comes from. So I will continue to post links to things I find interesting in EQ1 and hope those that have no interest in it don't keep invading my threads.</blockquote>Just a question then. Why do you keep posting material that has nothing to do with EQ2 lore on the EQ2 forums when you could post this on the EQLive forums where by golly there are a ton of people who actually have something to say about what your posting?You realize that even if we wanted to comment on this material we can't because, wonder of wonders we've never seen any hint of it in game. Material introduced after the time split isn't legitimate for being grandfathered into EQ2. By definition, that includes every expansion and anything introduced in those expansions after PoP.So Blackskull Rock didn't exist in EQ2 until the TSO expansion. Even now that it exists it isn't anything like Blackskull Rock in EQ1 which happens to hold several zones and have an entire city and harbor located within it. You'll also notice the absence of Luggalds. Innoruuk's chosen race is missing from EQ2 because it came into EQ1 after the time split!Now if material that happened BEFORE EQ2 LAUNCHED isn't in EQ2, what are the chances that stuff that happened AFTER EQ2 launched is going to make it into game? Honestly? If a dev loves the idea of something, especially if the producers of EQ2 love an idea from EQ1, it will make it into game. For that matter, if the producers of EQ2 love Portal 2 then Portal 2 elements can leak into EQ2 (see commonland's flyer race course). Or if the devs love Clint Eastwood movies those can make it into game (see "A Fist Full of Metal" series of quests).If your trying to get EQ1 lore adopted into EQ2 then rest assured that Smokejumper in his new role of Overlord of all that is EverQuest is going to be aware of the continued development of EQ1 and can freely steal ideas from it if he wishes. If you want to have your own non-discussion about this I'd suggest a blog. If you'd like to discuss stuff with people concerned with what actually exists in EQ2, stick to stuff that actually could be considered lore to EQ2.

Mixxit

06-06-2011, 05:59 PM

<cite>Meirril wrote:</cite><blockquote><blockquote> You'll also notice the absence of Luggalds. Innoruuk's chosen race is missing from EQ2 because it came into EQ1 after the time split!</blockquote>Now if material that happened BEFORE EQ2 LAUNCHED isn't in EQ2, what are the chances that stuff that happened AFTER EQ2 launched is going to make it into game?</blockquote><div>But the luggalds weren't created till Inny was upset with their attacks in Planes of Power so I can totally understand why they wouldn't make it into EQ2 But the points I have been iterating in this thread is that the events werea) On the timeline before PoP eventsb) Could easily be on Vhalen's Universal Timelinec) Are extremely historical (Shissar providing the technology to escape to luclin, Combine ruler being housed, Shissar city poised for their return to norrath)d) Do not break any loreSo who is to say they are not? What I love about stuff like this is that it can lead you to search for things in EQ2 you would never have thought to look for. For example reading EQRPG can lead you to lore about Aataltaal in this game </div>

Vaedaer

06-06-2011, 08:08 PM

It doesnt matter if the events are "before PoP" the actual expansions and lore are after PoP and unless the EQ2 devs decide to add something to it LATER in future expansions is, like everyone else has been telling you, Not cannon to EQ2 at all which seems you are having a hard time understanding (considering you have been doing it for a long time), im with meirill on this one if you want to post this stuff do it on EQlive forums.Most of the things on the pen and paper games are not cannon, the novels, none cannon some stuffs are similar some stuffs may be added as a way to "promote" them and im not saying its wrong or anything but stop trying to shove it down people's throat as cannon in this forums -_-ugh-goes back to sleeping-

Mixxit

06-06-2011, 08:33 PM

I'm sorry but you are not the forum police, this is the a lore board to discuss the history of norrath and this thread specifically states EQ1 - I have asked, time and time on this thread alone to discuss the topic rather than going off on a rant as usual which has happened in other threads and yet you still keep bringing it up, like you can change my opinion on the Universal Timeline.

Mixxit

06-06-2011, 08:45 PM

Vhalen on his EQ2 lore interview<blockquote>We also have a Norrathian Universal Timeline that gets filled in with notable historic events that have taken place or will take place. </blockquote>I've been through the EQ1 lore, and had my fill of time in that game , who are you to choose who I can discuss this with? And please, i'm not shoving anything down anyone's throat, it seems to be the opposite despite me politely asking you in this thread to simply choose from another myriad of threads to discuss lore in if you are a purist. So if you will please go back on topic.

Cusashorn

06-06-2011, 08:52 PM

<cite>Mixxit@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Meirril wrote:</cite><blockquote><blockquote> You'll also notice the absence of Luggalds. Innoruuk's chosen race is missing from EQ2 because it came into EQ1 after the time split!</blockquote>Now if material that happened BEFORE EQ2 LAUNCHED isn't in EQ2, what are the chances that stuff that happened AFTER EQ2 launched is going to make it into game?</blockquote><div>But the luggalds weren't created till Inny was upset with their attacks in Planes of Power so I can totally understand why they wouldn't make it into EQ2The Marr-Touched Frogloks, the city of Gukta, and the forced migration of the Troll race to Neriak made it into EQ2, and those all happened after the Planes of Power expansion. It was the developer's choice to leave the Luggalds out of EQ2. Those other events happened in an expansion that came out after PoP (February 2003), but before the Plane of Time was technically first beaten in EQlive (July 2003) and thus starting the time split.But the points I have been iterating in this thread is that the events werea) On the timeline before PoP eventsAs I pointed out earlier, just because someone writes into the game that it happened before the PoP events doesn't mean it actually happened. I said that if I were the one writing the lore for EQ1, I could easily write in some story about a group of events that happened thousands of years ago, before certain races had even been created, that could effectively retcon the entire Planes of Power out of existance, thus making it so that a split timeline never *COULD* have happened, and EQ2 doesn't exist because of it. Where would that leave us, the EQ2 community, to discuss this then?b) Could easily be on Vhalen's Universal TimelineCould, being the key word. Just because it could be, doesn't mean it is. In EQ2, proven in-game evidence or confirmation by the developers on this message board are the only elements that change "Could" into "is". There are so many elements, stories, and other bits of lore provided in the EQ2 Pen and Paper game that *Could* be part of EQ2's lore, but they aren't until those elements are proven in this game.It's perfectly fine to delve into the realm of what *could* be, but on these forums, one must remember the cold reality that it doesn't exist until it's proven in the game.c) Are extremely historical (Shissar providing the technology to escape to luclin, Combine ruler being housed, Shissar city poised for their return to norrath)Leaving behind a bunch of spires because they couldn't take them with them doesn't exactly count as "providing the technology". The Shissar never had any intention of returning to Norrath. They created the Grey vacuum on Luclin because the Green Mist scared the ever-living hell out of them. They knew that if they ever returned, they could and in all likelyhood, WOULD be wiped out by it again.d) Do not break any loreBut discussing retcons does break the lore. Thats what a retcon is in it's very definition: a re-write of previous lore so it becomes broken and can no longer apply.So who is to say they are not? What I love about stuff like this is that it can lead you to search for things in EQ2 you would never have thought to look for. For example reading EQRPG can lead you to lore about Aataltaal in this game.Aataltaal and Tarton's Wheel has been in EQlive since the very beginning of the game... or rather, when they first put the quest to obtain the Ice Comet spell for level 50 Wizards. The EQRPG has nothing to do with Aataltaal's supposed existence, because the game already confirms he existed. Now, I do conceed that talking about stuff like this can lead you to investigate further. To anyone who doesn't know about the Tarton's Wheel quest before reading this thread, now you do.</div></blockquote>

Mixxit

06-06-2011, 09:09 PM

<cite>Cusashorn wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Mixxit@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Meirril wrote:</cite><blockquote><blockquote> You'll also notice the absence of Luggalds. Innoruuk's chosen race is missing from EQ2 because it came into EQ1 after the time split!</blockquote>Now if material that happened BEFORE EQ2 LAUNCHED isn't in EQ2, what are the chances that stuff that happened AFTER EQ2 launched is going to make it into game?</blockquote><div>But the luggalds weren't created till Inny was upset with their attacks in Planes of Power so I can totally understand why they wouldn't make it into EQ2The Marr-Touched Frogloks, the city of Gukta, and the forced migration of the Troll race to Neriak made it into EQ2, and those all happened after the Planes of Power expansion. It was the developer's choice to leave the Luggalds out of EQ2. Those other events happened in an expansion that came out after PoP (February 2003), but before the Plane of Time was technically first beaten in EQlive (July 2003) and thus starting the time split.This is more evidence that events post PoP could be made into EQ2 and just because they haven't been revealed in in-game lore yet doesn't mean they should never be discussed in this boardBut the points I have been iterating in this thread is that the events werea) On the timeline before PoP eventsAs I pointed out earlier, just because someone writes into the game that it happened before the PoP events doesn't mean it actually happened. I said that if I were the one writing the lore for EQ1, I could easily write in some story about a group of events that happened thousands of years ago, before certain races had even been created, that could effectively retcon the entire Planes of Power out of existance, thus making it so that a split timeline never *COULD* have happened, and EQ2 doesn't exist because of it. Where would that leave us, the EQ2 community, to discuss this then?That's my point, there is just as much chance it could have happened as couldn't and shouldn't be a reason that vocal members of this board invade a topic demanding it stops.b) Could easily be on Vhalen's Universal TimelineCould, being the key word. Just because it could be, doesn't mean it is. In EQ2, proven in-game evidence or confirmation by the developers on this message board are the only elements that change "Could" into "is". There are so many elements, stories, and other bits of lore provided in the EQ2 Pen and Paper game that *Could* be part of EQ2's lore, but they aren't until those elements are proven in this game.That's right, for me I am happy to accept changes post pop that fit neatly with the lore without breaking anything and again I still want to discuss this in relation to EQ2 and the extra information that is available in this game that you can't find in EQ1. For example if you brought up EQ2 lore in the EQ1 board that might be relevent you can get a similar response, so where am I left to discuss universal timeline lore?c) Are extremely historical (Shissar providing the technology to escape to luclin, Combine ruler being housed, Shissar city poised for their return to norrath)Leaving behind a bunch of spires because they couldn't take them with them doesn't exactly count as "providing the technology". The Shissar never had any intention of returning to Norrath. They created the Grey vacuum on Luclin because the Green Mist scared the ever-living hell out of them. They knew that if they ever returned, they could and in all likelyhood, WOULD be wiped out by it again.'The Shissar never had any intention of returning to Norrath' sounds like fan fiction to me and would be something I would hope to have a reference for.d) Do not break any loreBut discussing retcons does break the lore. Thats what a retcon is in it's very definition: a re-write of previous lore so it becomes broken and can no longer apply.It's not breaking any lore if it adds on top to what we already know. It's not rewriting lore it's merely giving us more background information.So who is to say they are not? What I love about stuff like this is that it can lead you to search for things in EQ2 you would never have thought to look for. For example reading EQRPG can lead you to lore about Aataltaal in this game.Aataltaal and Tarton's Wheel has been in EQlive since the very beginning of the game... or rather, when they first put the quest to obtain the Ice Comet spell for level 50 Wizards. The EQRPG has nothing to do with Aataltaal's supposed existence, because the game already confirms he existed. Now, I do conceed that talking about stuff like this can lead you to investigate further. To anyone who doesn't know about the Tarton's Wheel quest before reading this thread, now you do.I have only ever seen Tarton information since the beginning of EQ1, EQRPG extended on that later on and we started to see more information involved with Kedge Keep and the Tarton stuff in EQ2 - I would love to discuss Aataltaal and his relation to this game and particularly freeports future.</div></blockquote></blockquote>Really alot of the discussion above is off topic again *sobs a little*

Mixxit

06-06-2011, 09:21 PM

duped posty

Mixxit

06-06-2011, 09:22 PM

Just to help with the 'provided technology' thing the quote was:Arcanist Variszh says 'If I could [collect] those tomes and share them amongst those of us who want peace, it would help sway more out from under Saarisz's control. I do not believe this to be an impossible dream. If people could see why the Combine moved the city here and how our Zhisza helped them . . . he even gave them all the knowledge they needed to escape to the Luclin moon! Peace would be the only natural outcome if I meet success with this quest.'but of course it was a clever rusethe Combine faces a greater danger, as they are unaware of a fourth and deadly sanctuary: Silyssar, New Chelsith, a secret habitat created by the shissar as a staging point for their triumphant return to Norrath

Iskandar

06-07-2011, 06:09 PM

Ever watch the TV show "Sliders?" This thread kinda reminds me of it... two separate and different timelines that share a few common points of history arguing about which one is "right." <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/97ada74b88049a6d50a6ed40898a03d7.gif" border="0" />Sure, it more or less all starts with Vhalen. He developed the lore that set the stage for everything -- EQ1 grew, EQ2 was born, and EQoA was born. All was good.And then he left.And his replacement looked at the lore and said, "Hmm, I bet I can make this better." And he added to it as he saw fit via new quests and new NPC dialogue.And then he left too.And his replacement looked at the lore and said, "Wow, I gotta do something BIG with all this!" And he wrote grand sweeping tales that took the earlier stories to new heights, introduced new heroes and villains of his own design, and shuffled those older pieces of lore that he didn't like or which didn't fit with his new tales snugly out of the way.And then he left too.And his replacement looked at the lore and said, "O...M...G... what a mess! I need to clean this up!" And so he did, rewording things, removing things, adding things, simplifying things, and generally just changing things.And then he left too.See where this is going yet? An exaggerated tale, I admit, but accurate none the less.Vhalen may have started the story, but by now it's had enough hands on it that it will bear little resemblance to his original idea. Yeah, I know, there's the oft-mentioned-yet-never-seen Universal Timeline that unites all the Norrath-based games... but who's to say how many revamps it's undergone since Vhalen left? Would he even recognize it anymore?And just how detailed is the Universal Timeline? Does it only cover the KEY players in their roles, or does it cover all the little nuances of the storyarcs as well? For example, we all know the story of George Washington crossing the Delaware... but who was the guy rowing the boat? <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/0a4d7238daa496a758252d0a2b1a1384.gif" border="0" />In the end, what it really boils down to is if EQ_Producer_0378 orders Lore_Dev_0279 to make it so, then it's made so -- because SOE_Exec_0001 decided that's what will sell the next expansion, which is what will pay for EQ_Producer_0378's new car and let Lore_Dev_0279 put his kids through college. We all gotta eat.I was playing EQ1 when the "BS" expansion was released -- gameplay wise it was a lot of fun, and graphically it was quite stunning at the time... but lorewise it was a travesty that flung everything that had come before it right out the window, effectively killing my interest in the story of EverQuest I and leaving me with little more than faction grinding and "who we gonna kill tonight?" Because they needed to make extensive changes in the lore to make that expansion work as envisioned by the developers and management.Profits > Lore even if Profits = Massive Story Retcon.