Conjuror Class Issues - Destiny of Velious

[Banditman]

<p>This is my first crack at this in a long time.  With Xalmat no longer able to do this, here goes nothing.I am not much of a "fluff" guy.  I am more concerned with getting things that are mechanically significant fixed.  All that said, some of my "wish list" type items are definitely fluff.  However, my main focus remains seeing mechanical issues and flaws brought to the forefront and addressed.<span style="font-size: medium;"><span style="text-decoration: underline;"><strong>Broken or Inconsistent Mechanical Issues</strong></span></span><strong>1.  Pet Attack.</strong>  (9/29/2011 Update - Still broken)The Problem:  There are numerous instances since the release of Velious that our pet steadfastly refuses to attack a target.  It seems to be generally governed by "something" being overhead.  In certain caves, underneath overhangs or other overhead obstacles.  In any event, the pet will simply not attack when told to do so.  However, if the Master is attacked, and the pet is set to protect, the pet will engage a target he refused to attack before.  This is an incredibly important problem for Summoners.  Additionally, when a mob ports, the pet will sometimes then refuse to cast spells at the target, though he WILL continue to auto attack.  Lady Vuul for instance.Requested Fix:  If we can see and attack a given target, our pet should be able to do so as well.  Obviously, there is some sort of check made when we attempt to cast a spell, say Crystal Blast.  If I can cast on my target, when I tell my pet to attack, he should be able to attack by using the same exact check.  Additionally, by using our check, perhaps our pet wandering could be cut down as well.<strong>2.  Pet Resists.</strong>  (9/29/2011 Update - Still broken)The Problem:  For some reason, when shared stats were implimented, resists were not something that was shared.  This is pretty baffling.  What good does it do our pet to get our critical mitigation but not our resists?  Our pet already has fewer HP than we do by a significant margin, and yet he doesn't aquire the resists we work to improve?  I really think this needs to be corrected.Requested Fix:  Quite simply give our pet our resists, just like other Shared Stats.  The AA revamp added a whopping 1700 resists to our pet through 5 AA spent.  REALLY?!?!?! 1700!!!  I am rocking 40k+ resists personally.  Dump the AA, share our resists to our pet.  It simply cannot be this hard.<strong>3.  Air Pet.</strong>  (9/29/2011 Update - Still broken)The Problem:  We were told that with the DoV expansion, Summoners would once again have reason to use ALL of our pets.  This promise has not been delivered.  Our "Bard" pet is still just as awful as ever.  The group buffs he gives are absolutely without value when compared to the extreme loss of DPS we are asked to accept.  There was an excellent, in depth analysis of the problems it has done in this thread (http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?topic_id=499257).  In summary, the AI of the Air pet is horrid.  This is not "new" information to long time Summoners.  It's always been bad, despite repeated attempts to correct it.Requested Fix:  Honestly, after many years playing a Conjuror, I am convinced that this pet just can't be fixed without an extreme solution.  I have suggested before, and will suggest again here, that the Air pet be converted into a Cold based, single target Mage pet.  We are Mages, everything we have improves the abilities of a Mage pet.  Giving a melee based pet static buffs simply won't address the issue going forward as growth of abilities continues.  This pet needs to be a Mage.<strong>4.  Offensive Stance.</strong>  (9/29/2011 Update - Still broken)The Problem:  This is something else we were told was going to be addressed with Velious, and has not been delivered.  Our offensive stance does absolutely nothing for our pet.  Few Conjurors even bother to cast this spell anymore.Requested Fix:  Ok, in a perfect world, I'd love to see some sort of pet heal attached.  I don't think that's very likely, and it doesn't really fit our class very well.  Perhaps the addition of shared Resists for our pet might even alleviate some of the need for this.  So, pet heal aside?  How about some Recovery?  Not Re-Use!  A Power Tap would fit us a little better than a heal, perhaps return power to both pet and Master?  That would be nice.<strong>5.  Dumbfire Pets.</strong>  (9/29/2011 Update - Still broken)The Problem:  They do not share our stats, they die in AE's, they do very minimal damage since they cannot crit, take potency, ability mod or crit bonus.  In fact, I don't know many Conjurors who even have them on a hot bar.  Over half the classes in the game have some sort of dumbfire pet, and there are even some weapons which proc dumbfire pets.  This is a big part of the game that is being completely ignored.Requested Fix:  Let them share our stats, and make them immune to AE damage.  This would at least make them worth casting, and add some flavor back to the game.  Alternatively, simply convert them into a DoT.<strong>6.  Flameshield.</strong>  (9/29/2011 Update - Still broken)The Problem:  Flameshield doesn't crit.  Uh, why?  I cannot figure out why this spell doesn't crit.Requested Fix:  Let Flameshield crit.  The amount of damage involved here is so tiny (It's base damage is like 60!) that even if it crits, this spell is probably not going to be recast during combat if it is dispelled or lost for whatever reason.<strong>7.  Essence Shift.</strong>  (9/29/2011 Update - Still broken)The Problem:  Our pet health to power spell is going to kill our pet eventually.  One shot style.  Our pet is *not* scaling it's HP with ours.  Right now, that doesn't look to be a problem, though it could concievably become one in the future.  However, the damage portion of Essence Shift is crit'ing and taking Potency and Crit Bonus.  It's already doing over half the health of my pet in damage.Requested Fix:  Prevent the damage portion of this ability from crit'ing.  Since our pet health isn't scaling, having abilities that work against that amount scale up is going to be a problem, sooner rather than later.<strong>8.  Hydromancer.</strong>  (9/29/2011 Update - Still broken)The Problem:  Hydromancer, our heal pet, just isn't, nor has it ever been, worth casting.  Development needs to decide what the vision for this pet is.  There are numerous options here, but as it stands, there is no use for the pet at all.Requested Fix:  Much of this depends on the vision that is applied to this pet.  I see two options.</p><ul><li>The pet is intended to be a full time, full service pet.  In this case the pet needs to aquire some serious heals and the AI with which to use them properly.  It needs to heal the target of it's master, as well as the entire group.  It needs to be a capable healer in all but the most difficult group content.</li><li>The pet is intended to be an emergency assist spell, for instance, in the case a solo healer in a group is killed during combat.  In this case, the pet needs to be a dumbfire pet with a limited duration of say 45 seconds.  Extra bonus points if the pet is given a rez that works only on another healer during combat.  It would then rez the healer and fill in as a backup healer for the duration to allow the dead healer to rebuff and get back to healing. </li></ul><p><strong>9.  Sacrifice.</strong>  (9/29/2011 Update - Still broken)The Problem:  Sacrifice does not crit.  We have AA's to make this spell better, but it will never scale properly unless all of the mechanics affect it, including crit rate and crit bonus.Requested Fix:  Let the spell crit.</p>

[Banditman]

<p><span style="font-size: medium;"><span style="text-decoration: underline;"><strong>The Wish List</strong></span></span></p><p><span style="text-decoration: line-through;"><strong>1.  Implode.</strong></span>  (9/29/2011 Update - ability changed)<span style="text-decoration: line-through;">For so long, Implode has been a non starter.  In short, no Summoner worth their salt will EVER sacrifice their pet.  Even with Dimensional Storage, it just isn't an option.  Too many things just don't work with this AA as it exists right now.I would absolutely *love* to see this AA changed into an ability which sacrifices any existing Dumbfire pets instead of our primary pet.  This would "fix" dumbfire pets and give some meaning to an otherwise un-used AA.  It would require some skill in a raid situation to time the dumbfires so they aren't killed by an AE before they can be Imploded.  The damage would need to be large enough for a Summoner to want to stop and time things for this to work, but I really think this has some serious potential for fun.</span><strong>1.  Plane Shift.</strong>Once one of our marquee spells, Plane Shift is being pushed off our hotbars by the advent of Soulburn.  You can't Soulburn while a pet is PS'ed, and generally Soulburn is not something you want to leave uncast.  Sure, you can use a macro to cancel Plane Shift when Soulburn comes up, but honestly that's a lot of trouble.I'd like to see the base duration and base recast of Plane Shift cut in half.  30 second base duration, 6 minute base recast is a lot more in tune with the current game mechanics.  It also allows Plane Shift to fit in more comfortably with Soulburn.<strong><span style="text-decoration: line-through;">3.  Perceptors Bodyguard.</span></strong>  (9/29/2011 Update - Ability changed)<span style="text-decoration: line-through;">This is currently restricted to only affect Fighter type pets.  I would like to see this ability opened up to affect any pet we have.  As stated above, pet health is not scaling with master health, and so some form of increase needs to be available to our pets.  This is a decent place to address that need without creating imbalances in other areas.In combination with the above suggestion for Implode, it also gives Summoners far more interesting options in an otherwise bland AA tree.  I'd love to have a real, honest choice to make.  I want to wish that I had more points to spend in this tree, as opposed to currently trying to figure out how few I can spend and still get Elemental Toxicity.</span><strong>2.  Call of the Hero / Ancient Calling.</strong>This Ability and AA that affects it rests at the bottom of the Shadows tree.  Given the direction the game has taken, the AA is currently worthless, and the ability is somewhat nice but not killer good.I would like to see the AA changed to a 1 rank, 5 point cost ability (like Dimensional Storage).  Instead of affecting cast and recast, have the AA turn CoH into a GROUP spell.  I want to call my entire group to me.  I'd pay 5 AA for that.<strong><span style="text-decoration: line-through;">5.  Shards.</span></strong>  (9/29/2011 Update - Ability changed)<span style="text-decoration: line-through;">This is a somewhat cool ability, that I think could use some love.  We have two AA's which affect our Shard spells.  One affects our single target shard, the other our group / raid shard.  Both abilities affect cast / recast.  Both abilities have 5 ranks of 1 point each.How about changing those abilities to improve the "value" of the Shard by 20% per rank.  Make Shards meaningful again.  Incidentally, this would apply to Hearts as well, since both classes have the same two AA's.</span><strong>3.  Pet models.</strong>I would love to be able to choose from among all of the different "levels" of pets as far as what model is seen.  Maybe I like the look of Fiery Magician III better than Fiery Magician VI.  Why can't I use that instead?  I understand why you can't just let each one scale up, really, I do.  But I would absolutely love to be able to "choose" a look for my pet from among the different looks I already have available.  This would also encourage people to aquire the "Master" versions of downtier pet spells just to get a "look" they like.  I'm not usually a "fluff" person, but this is definitely fluff, but I think it would add a lot.<strong>4.  Pet AI.</strong>This is real pie in the sky type stuff, but here goes anyway.  I would like to be able to set up a cast order for my pet.  Perhaps not so much an order as a preference.  Here is how I envision it.I cast Possess Essence on my pet, and I'm now in control and have the pets hotbar.  I re-arrange those spells from left to right in the order I want them cast in.  The pet simply casts the leftmost spelll that is available, ie not in cooldown.  Pure awesomesauce in a can.</p>

[Odomfel]

<p>I would very much like to see something done with the scout pet and the dumbfire pets.</p><p>I cast the dumbfires only if I have thrown everything else at the mob and have cooldown time. You'd think that these should be the spells you'd cast right after Crystal Blast.</p><p>All of our pets should mean something. That is what defines this class. the Dev's seem to have focused on other things and let the main root of a Conjuror's power atrophy. </p><p>I agree Bandit, there are several area for improvement. Some have been needed for years. </p>

[Shotneedle]

<p>I can take control of the necro scout pet and do 1.5x-2x the dps the AI can.</p><p>Honestly it's pretty lulzy but I suppose it should be fixed.</p>

[Bremer]

You should add shared stamina to the list. Stamina is shared with the pet, but doesn't affect its HP. Thus the pet HP won't increase when you aquire better gear.

[Lamprey_02]

<p>I'm pretty sure pet hp not increasing was a design decision:</p><p>- Pet hp scaling up with pet owner means overpowered soulburns in time, as people get more & more powerful</p><p>- Pet hp NOT scaling means underpowered class in time, as mobs get stronger</p><p>SOE is more comfortable with underpowered classes than overpowered ones, given their preference for nerfs over boosts in the past, so their choice here seems in line with expectations.</p><p>What I don't get is, why didn't they pick the third choice: make soulburn stop scaling after the pet passes x hp. In otherwords, <strong>make soulburn a nuke where 75% of the pet's hp gets converted to damage, up to a max of, say, 20k</strong>. Still powerful, still scalable (since it'd be affected by owner's int/potency just like EB), and with pet hp uncapped I don't have to recast him over & over on raids.</p>

[Banditman]

<p>I never said it wasn't intentional.  I fully expect it is intentional.  However, that doesn't mean that this won't be a problem in the future.  Maybe it won't.  Maybe having our resists passed to our pet will help.  I don't know.  I simply want to plant the seed now, so that it doesn't get out of hand down the road before anyone even looks at it.</p><p>I am also sure that Soulburn is one of the reasons it's done this way, but honestly, that would have been easy enough to scale by simply taking a different percentage or something else.  Regardless, I don't think that *right now* it would be a great idea to have our pets take our Stamina.  My opinion on that may well change down the road, as might the opinion of some of the other Conjurors.</p>

[Lantis]

<p><cite>Banditman wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I am also sure that Soulburn is one of the reasons it's done this way, but honestly, that would have been easy enough to scale by simply taking a different percentage or something else.  Regardless, I don't think that *right now* it would be a great idea to have our pets take our Stamina.  My opinion on that may well change down the road, as might the opinion of some of the other Conjurors.</p></blockquote><p>I doubt they did it on purpose, because designing game mechanics around a given spell or ability is backward.</p><p>Personally I'd say have the HP/sta shared, simply scale back Soulburn a bit to compensate.  Properly done, this will make Soulburn not hit as hard for high end, hit harder for low end, and make our pet scale better HP-wise.</p><p>Scout pet: they should just scrap it IMHO.  After all these years I don't think SOE has any idea what to do with it either.  Making it a single target mage would be annoying - I don't want to waste my time spending 7 secs to switch pet whenever I'm doing single mobs or group mobs.  We got a tank pet and a mage pet - fine, we don't need a third one IMHO.</p><p>Dumbfires: One of the ideas back in Aerilik's (sp?) days was to turn them into debuffs.  Personally I kinda liked the idea.  We don't need yet one more DPS spell to cast - our "rotation" is already filled up as it is.</p><p>Hydromancer: since we got a useless scout pet, why not scrap the scout pet, make the hydromancer a regular pet, and change that endline to an hydromancer buff?</p>

[Laiina]

<p>I pretty much agree with all your points. The pet refusing to attack is one of the more annoying one, and seems to be caused by some kind of terrain bug.</p>

[Triste-Lune]

As a necro thinking of betraying to conjuror (betrayed once to look at the spell but returned to necro due to not having the plat to pay for the m1) i agree with a lot of you. The "you may not order your pet to attack your target or implied target" is my biggest grip. I like the idea of implode blowing up the dumbifre pet. Thou i dont see the issue with planeshift, i would trade it anyday with undead horde, I cant remember the recast on planeshift but it s not being pushed off the hotbar at all it s not like it s up as often as soulburn is, you might be maybe missing out 1 or 2 lifeburn out of 8~10 but in the mean time the pet is doing some pretty huge damage

[Luhai]

<p>Nice list so far.</p><p>Concerning the Pet AI on the wish list: adjusting the spell rotation for the pet would be awesome but probably hard to do.I'd already be happy with being able to set the priority of the pet cast order to single target, AoE or default via a pet option.</p>

[Vaylan77]

<p>I am new to playing a Conjurer and have played other classes before but when I read such a post I just ask myself why you keep playing a class which you dislike in so many aspects. I currently have fun with the Conjurer and of course it's not perfect - no class is. But the baseline here is that classes are different to play and every class has good and bad spells to use.I am locked at T4 so I cannot say anything about how well suited a Conjurer is for certain high level content but I would rather guess that such a post can be opened for every class out there. Every class has a downside in certain situations.One thing for example which I cannot understand (again talking about T4 on a PVP server) is the problem with the scout pet. It's my primary pet and does it's job very well and I won't switch it for mage or tank pet and that this guy is melee is just fine for me.<cite>Banditman wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><strong>1.  Implode.</strong>For so long, Implode has been a non starter.  In short, no Summoner worth their salt will EVER sacrifice their pet.  Even with Dimensional Storage, it just isn't an option.  Too many things just don't work with this AA as it exists right now.</p></blockquote><p>No Summoner would sacrifice it? Well goes with my statement above - scout pet can be instantly resummoned with AA spell after death. Maybe it's just a matter of the style you play the Conjurer and which spells you combine with others but actually there is a use for implode without causing too many problems.</p>

[Banditman]

<p>The fact that you are still using your Scout pet illustrates how little knowledge you have of the class.</p><p>I can appreciate a desire to see different pets, I think most Summoners - both Necros and Conjies - share that desire.  Unfortunately, in the current game, the Scout pets of both Summoner classes are clearly second rate pets.</p>

[Banditman]

<p><cite>Triste-Lune wrote:</cite></p><blockquote>As a necro thinking of betraying to conjuror (betrayed once to look at the spell but returned to necro due to not having the plat to pay for the m1) i agree with a lot of you. The "you may not order your pet to attack your target or implied target" is my biggest grip. I like the idea of implode blowing up the dumbifre pet. Thou i dont see the issue with planeshift, i would trade it anyday with undead horde, I cant remember the recast on planeshift but it s not being pushed off the hotbar at all it s not like it s up as often as soulburn is, you might be maybe missing out 1 or 2 lifeburn out of 8~10 but in the mean time the pet is doing some pretty huge damage</blockquote><p>Plane Shift currently has a base re-use of 12 minutes, with a duration of 60 seconds.  The things that it does are no longer of great interest.  The most interesting aspect, if you have the proper focus effect, is it can add up to 25% Potency.  Honestly, even that isn't of great interest any longer except as a quick boost for something like Elemental Blast.  It is *barely* more DPS than simply ignoring Plane Shift and using Soulburn.</p><p>Yes, there was a time when Plane Shift could make a HUGE difference.  That was when the pet didn't have a great deal of crit chance on it's own.  When the pet didn't have a great deal of Potency on it's own.  When the pet didn't have a great deal of cast speed on it's own.</p><p>Times have changed.  Reducing the recast on Plane Shift, along with a decrease in duration would make this buff much more desireable in the current game.</p>

[Squall Leonhea]

<p>Nice list but one thing missing.</p><p>Communion is buggy when you cast it you lose the pets raidwide buff and the scout buff (if you cast it with communion) will only stay up for a second than also disappear. With added HP, Miti, Deaggro, AE immun (with hydromancer) this could be a useful spell but as it is now, it is hurting the raid to cast it.</p><p>Adjusting the cast order for the pet has the problem, that you need different ones for single target and AE. Not sure if the pets makes a difference now depending on what it is attacking.</p><p>I like Luhais Idea where you can change AI behavious to single target/AE target Dps like we can now toggle melee/ranged dps. Best would be both Ideas combined ^^. (btw are you the Luhai from Valor?)</p><p>Solution for shared sta and soulburn would be to not make it crit. It would than scale with hp and potency instead of potency and crit bonus. They would have to make some adjustances so that it would make roughly the same damage.</p><p>I like your Hydromancer Idea, would make it as a buff you can place on a healer that triggers on death.</p><p>Other Ideas would be to make a AE immun swarm pet (or 2. pet that follows us) that radiates heals, cures, wards or something like that and or buff it now has AE immun and deaggro, if we could give that to the group would be awesome.</p>

[Alecsiel]

<p>As someone who has played a conjurer for several expansion, I must say I like some of the changes soe has made.  The class has been improving but there are as listed by the original poster some issues that need to be addressed.</p><p>Ignoring the issues of a lot of abilities that make no sense to use (such as sacrifice and anything but the mage pet), I'd like to see the following issues addressed.</p><p>1)  The pet anchor button for all pets has been deactivated by soe.  As a conjurer that raids this is a HUGE issue, because in a raid setting I cannot take the risk of my pet yanking agro and turning a flurrying aoeing giant onto my raid force.  In previous expansions I would park my pet directly beside the named mob we were fighting so if I did rip it would face the pet not the raid.  I have no clue why soe would inactivate the /petstay  ... anchor button but please look into it and bring it back.</p><p>2) Pets really need their resists looked into.  For Necros this isn't such a big issue because they have an aa line that is effective in mediating the damage taken to their pet by aoes.  However the conjurers AA says that the pet cannot be engaged and must be by the conjurer....  why they heck would we bother with this, mise well not have a pet at all.  This expansion has really made me a healer, I spend a lot of time throwing stoneskins, pet emergency death prevents, and pet heals.  I find that I become frustrated unless I'm in a group with a fury with hibernation and group heals over times to help assist with the pet.  I personally am not a profit user but I've been told that UI makes it very difficult to see pet health, so most healers don't bother to help heal our pets.</p><p>Conjurers if you want an example of just how bad our pets resists are, try mentoring to 70 and going to mistmoore castle.  Usually as a mentored you get some serious advantages over being a regular 70 player watch how quickly a single vampire can evaporate the pet because most of them cast multitudes of spells.</p>

[Squall Leonhea]

<p>not sure what you mean, pet stay works for me. I use the button in the pet window and pet stays at the last location. If it is attacking, it sometimes moves to a new location but if you want it to be near the mob, activate pet melee.</p>

[Banditman]

<p><cite>Squall Leonheart wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Nice list but one thing missing.</p><p>Communion is buggy when you cast it you lose the pets raidwide buff and the scout buff (if you cast it with communion) will only stay up for a second than also disappear. With added HP, Miti, Deaggro, AE immun (with hydromancer) this could be a useful spell but as it is now, it is hurting the raid to cast it.</p><span style="color: #008000;">I will take a look and confirm this.  I know that the Scout pet buff doesn't stick with Communion, but I think that is by design.</span><p>Solution for shared sta and soulburn would be to not make it crit. It would than scale with hp and potency instead of potency and crit bonus. They would have to make some adjustances so that it would make roughly the same damage.</p><p><span style="color: #008000;">Terrible, terrible idea.  Never, ever exempt things from the mechanics of the game.  I fight against this very thing every single chance I get.  Whether it's Crusader heals, Manaburn, Lifeburn or whatever.  Fix the core values and let the mechanics of the game work.  This is one of the reasons you see Flameshield on the list.  It is currently an EXCEPTION to the overall game mechanics.</span></p><p>I like your Hydromancer Idea, would make it as a buff you can place on a healer that triggers on death.</p><p><span style="color: #008000;">No, that's too powerful.  Too . . . stupidproof.  </span></p></blockquote>

[Squall Leonhea]

<p><cite>Banditman wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Squall Leonheart wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Nice list but one thing missing.</p><p>Communion is buggy when you cast it you lose the pets raidwide buff and the scout buff (if you cast it with communion) will only stay up for a second than also disappear. With added HP, Miti, Deaggro, AE immun (with hydromancer) this could be a useful spell but as it is now, it is hurting the raid to cast it.</p><span style="color: #008000;">I will take a look and confirm this.  I know that the Scout pet buff doesn't stick with Communion, but I think that is by design.</span><p><span style="color: #0000ff;">Hmm Hydromancer can cast group buffs so why shouldn't the scout pet. But maybe your right and that's where the bug came from. Programmer implemented something that deletes the scout buff and that also somehow kills the raidwidebuff. I think they are the only "auto pet buffs" we have. The hydromancer ones have to be casted by the pet.</span></p><p>Solution for shared sta and soulburn would be to not make it crit. It would than scale with hp and potency instead of potency and crit bonus. They would have to make some adjustances so that it would make roughly the same damage.</p><p><span style="color: #008000;">Terrible, terrible idea.  Never, ever exempt things from the mechanics of the game.  I fight against this very thing every single chance I get.  Whether it's Crusader heals, Manaburn, Lifeburn or whatever.  Fix the core values and let the mechanics of the game work.  This is one of the reasons you see Flameshield on the list.  It is currently an EXCEPTION to the overall game mechanics.</span></p><p><span style="color: #0000ff;">At the moment sta is an exception from the shared stats and that's not so great either. Question is why. Is it only because soulburn would be too powerful? </span></p><p><span style="color: #0000ff;">It would progress faster than our other spells so fixing core values wouldn't help. Either it would be too weak at the beginning or too powerful later in the game. </span></p><p><span style="color: #0000ff;">And I don't like the idea of capping soulburn at let's say 20k. Would cost us the ability to increase soulburn with buffs and items like animal form, kleriker 30% hp group buff, bolster, byzola staff. Those neat little tricks are what's making it fun.</span></p><p><span style="color: #0000ff;">Hmm, what could work is a dynamic core value linked to sta. With 1000 sta it transfers 75%, with 1500 60% and so on (just examples, didn't do the math). Could even think of a reason for it. "Because the pet has such a huge amount of health the conji isn't able to efficiently burn it."    </span></p><p><span style="color: #0000ff;">With that mechanic it wouldn't get too powerful and we could still use % based abilities to increase damage of soulburn. But maybe a little too complicated. Would have to be calculated differently for each tier.</span></p></blockquote></blockquote>

[Banditman]

<p>If the amounts were properly balanced, you wouldn't need anything like a regressive curve.  However, my confidence in the development team to do that is not very high.  They still haven't managed to balance other situations similar to Soulburn properly, and in most cases they really haven't tried.</p><p>Frankly, I am more hopeful of them looking at other things before worrying about a situation like shared STA which is not currently a concern.</p>

[Squall Leonhea]

<p>shared sta is a little problematic, we can live without at the moment but I think they should implement it with time. But what should be in your list are shared resis. Don't see a reason they are not shared. Especially considering that there were Items to increase pet resis and those effects were deleated.</p>

[Lamprey_02]

<p>I don't know.</p><p>On one hand, the issues mentioned are valid - on the other, I'm feeling pretty good about my conji now.</p><p>- I put in respectable DPS- Usually top parses- If I don't, I'm close enough to compete</p><p>Only real issue I'm having is pet agro after I pop EB, but with stoneskins and magic leash it's an annoyance, but not a roadblock. So if it were up to me, I'd rather SOE left our class alone where we are rather than try to fix things and risk breaking others.</p>

[Inuki1]

<p>Thank you Banditman, your list is excellent and contains most of what I think needs some looking into.  In a perfect world everything would work as intended.  I just want to highlight some of what I think are the more important areas. </p><p>Every pet needs to work.  If you remember pre LU13, we only had 1 pet.  The earth pet.  The fire and air pets were fundamentally broken - the earth pet simply did it all.  Hit level 20 and you got the Master 2 version of the spell, and life was golden.  It feels like we're getting back into those days - only 1 real pet option.  I hate it.  I want OPTIONS as a conjuror.  I want to summon a pet that fits the situation - single target dps the scout should shine, groups the mage should be the go to choice.  The earth pet should be needed when trying heroics for a quest update or just soloing your way through a slightly older dungeon.  We're not at that point anymore - the fire pet is the ONLY choice right now, really.  Enough has been said about the scout pet, obviously that needs improvement and has needed it for many years now.  Like you Banditman, I've mostly given up on ever getting this thing up to par.  I WANT to like the scout pet, and I WANT it to be a valid option, much like the Hydromancer.  I really like the idea of the water pet, it just needs to be implemented better.  We are a dps class, so it really shouldn't be a main pet like it is now.  Perhaps a dumbfire pet that's aoe immune (like the buff it gives) and puts out some real healing, but only for a limited time. </p><p>Speaking of dumbfires - obviously these need to be fixed.  I consider them one of our class defining spells (maybe I'm old fashioned that way - I know many other classes also have dumbfire pets now).  They need to be aoe immune, they need a dps boost, and they need to share stats with us. </p><p>Communion - also one of our class defining spells (and just plain fun).  Unfortunately shares the dumbfire pets problem (since they basically ARE just dumbfire pets).  They don't crit, damage is poor - they need to share stats also. </p><p>The line of sight issue, or whatever the problem is making pets refuse to attack.  If I have a clear line of sight, the pet should too.  This one issue caused me more deaths the other night than anything else - soloing in Sebilis grinding AA and the pet refusing to attack, forcing me to proximity aggro.  I would then get feared (the pet picks up aggro quick but I'm still the first target they see) and I'd run into other mobs, or run into the wall while my pet (who now has aggro) gets pounded into a pulp. </p><p>Pets should share resists. </p><p>Plane Shift - one of my favorite spells, now unfortunately barely worth casting.  Needs a revamp - shorter recast, etc. </p><p>Offensive pet stance - useless at this time.  Needs tweaking. </p><p>Minion's Intervention - this spell needs serious adjusting.  It's basically a 1 hit stoneskin for the pet.  The heal is meaningless.  Perhaps change the AA to grant it more death preventions, such as Brawler's Tenacity or something. </p><p>Earth pet - I know I touched on this earlier but I want to elaborate more.  I love soloing with the earth pet, he's been my go-to guy to save my a** when I pull too much, or get that heroic update kill, or just (slowly) solo my way through heroic dungeons.  Now he rarely comes out - I can't solo anything heroic in DoV with him obviously, for solo content the mage pet kills so much faster (and still has decent hp).  With stats exploding the way they are, I have almost double the hp's he has (plus some mitigation, plus resists), even in a pure tank setup.  I'd like to see him adjusted also - hp boost or damage reduction.  The end line SF STA AA that grants 16% damage reduction should also remove the stifle effect of Unflinching Servant.  Perhaps make it share our own Mitigation also (pets still have no mitigation right?  Haven't checked in a while).  Even with my paltry 30% or so reduction, add it the 10% from EoF, plus 16% Unflinching Servant, would help out greatly. </p><p>Call of the Hero - once also a class defining ability, has gone to the wayside.  With many folks now having a Call of the Veteran available, various tinkered/quest/racial abilities that mimic CoH the ability is merely handy sometimes, and especially putting AA into it is useless.  I was thinking make it a 5 point ability that is the same effect as CoV. </p>

[Squall Leonhea]

<p>Regarding the line of sight issue. Back in the old days you could attack everything that you could target. But they changed that so that we can only send the pet to targets on the same lvl as we are (basically you have to be able to reach it without jumping).</p><p>guess they did that to avoid exploits or something. But with current lvl design that's causing problems. I think crooked floors or round bridges are the main problem.</p><p>Hmm don't have a problem with Minion's Intervention. Would like shorter recast but I think it's fine as it is. Though it sure was fun in t5 where it only had (I think) 8 sec recast. Could tank a Raidmob that was oneshotting our Tanks <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" />.</p>

[Inuki1]

<p><cite>Squall Leonheart wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Regarding the line of sight issue. Back in the old days you could attack everything that you could target. But they changed that so that we can only send the pet to targets on the same lvl as we are (basically you have to be able to reach it without jumping).</p><p>guess they did that to avoid exploits or something. But with current lvl design that's causing problems. I think crooked floors or round bridges are the main problem.</p><p>Hmm don't have a problem with Minion's Intervention. Would like shorter recast but I think it's fine as it is. Though it sure was fun in t5 where it only had (I think) 8 sec recast. Could tank a Raidmob that was oneshotting our Tanks <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" />.</p></blockquote><p>No, that's not it.  I think we're playing a different game <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  I can send my pet against targets on different levels.  Always have.  Was doing it just last night, so it's definately not a different level issue.  And the other night that I mentioned, when I was in Sebilis, the mobs were literally right in front of me, right out of aggro range, and the pet still wouldn't attack. </p><p>As for Minion's Intervention, are we talking about the same skill?  I don't remember it ever having an 8s recast.  Is my Alzheimer's kicking in already? </p>

[Squall Leonhea]

<p>I didn't mean player/mob lvl, I ment they are on a higher/lower point. Though easy accessable for us, there's a step somewhere on the way that our pet won't cross.</p><p>For Minion's Intervention</p><p>Pre LU 13 (DoF release) it had an insanely short recast, maybe it wasn't 8 but 10 sec but it was really powerful especially with master version.</p>

[RedIris]

<p><cite>Banditman wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><span ><p>Solution for shared sta and soulburn would be to not make it crit. It would than scale with hp and potency instead of potency and crit bonus. They would have to make some adjustances so that it would make roughly the same damage.</p><p><span style="color: #008000;">Terrible, terrible idea.  Never, ever exempt things from the mechanics of the game.  I fight against this very thing every single chance I get.  Whether it's Crusader heals, Manaburn, Lifeburn or whatever.  Fix the core values and let the mechanics of the game work.  This is one of the reasons you see Flameshield on the list.  It is currently an EXCEPTION to the overall game mechanics.</span></p></span></p></blockquote><p>This isn't an exemption from game mechanics, it is the game mechanic, lifeburn and mana burn don't crit for a very good reason.  They don't crit because scaling on 3 things instead of 2 would create an exponential power curve that would be impossible to balance with every other ability. </p><p>If lifeburn and mana burn critted, you could not balance them as their progression as gear increased is not following the same curve as every other ability. If manaburn critted, it would be hitting for 6million, if you rebalanced back down to 2million it would only be balanced for the current top end.  It would be horrid for less geared wizards and become grossly overpowered in the future as it continues to improve on a multiplication of 3 increasing numbers instead of 2.</p>

[Banditman]

<p>Why shouldn't Manaburn hit for six million?  EB is capable of hitting for over 2 million - and that's just for me.  I'm fairly confident that the higher end Conjy's can do much better.  My current best Soulburn was about 450k, and I know that Aniathor has hit for over 850k before.</p><p>Keep in mind that there are other checks on Manaburn.  I forget the exact verbage, but there is a certain percentage of health on the target that Manaburn cannot exceed.  In effect, it's already capped in other ways.</p><p>Manaburn should crit, should take potency and crit bonus.  So should Lifeburn.</p>

[Lantis]

<p><cite>Banditman wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Why shouldn't Manaburn hit for six million?  EB is capable of hitting for over 2 million - and that's just for me.  I'm fairly confident that the higher end Conjy's can do much better.  My current best Soulburn was about 450k, and I know that Aniathor has hit for over 850k before.</p><p>Keep in mind that there are other checks on Manaburn.  I forget the exact verbage, but there is a certain percentage of health on the target that Manaburn cannot exceed.  In effect, it's already capped in other ways.</p><p>Manaburn should crit, should take potency and crit bonus.  So should Lifeburn.</p></blockquote><p>Because if Mamaburn did that, then it would make Wizard DPS get way out of hands.</p>

[Banditman]

<p>I disagree.  The recast on Manaburn is much more than EB.</p><p>Lets say a Manaburn COULD hit for six million.  A Wizard with 100% re-use could cast it every 210 seconds.  Overall DPS of the spell would then be 28.5k.  Not really all that spectacular.  Compare it to EB at 2 million every 90 seconds.  Overall DPS is 22.2k.</p><p>So, is it really all that outrageous?  Nope, not at all.  Yes, Wizards would do "more" DPS overall with it.  However, keep in mind there are drawbacks to Manaburn that absolutely do not exist with EB.  Likewise Lifeburn.</p><p>Yes, integrating Manaburn fully into the proper mechanics of the game would increase the DPS of a Wizard, but not by nearly as much as you think.</p><p>I am also not saying that the base amounts won't need adjustment.  It's very possible, even likely, that they will.  Getting these abilities re-integrated into the greater mechanics of the game however is important enough to warrant them taking the time to do it.</p><p>That is neither here nor there to a Conjuror however, and really has no bearing on what a Conjuror needs for this expansion.  It's simply an inequity that should bother you since allowing them to creep into the game and remain there is what got us down the road of pet effects.  How long did it take to get that particular beauty sorted out?</p>

[RedIris]

<p>There are so many flaws in your logic, where to begin...</p> <p>1.  By your logic, I could have a spell that does 1 billion damage and is castable once every 10 hours.  That would be 27.7k dps, perfectly balanced.</p> <p>2.  By your logic, I could have 1000 different spells that all do 1 billion damage and are castable once every 10 hours, because balance is only considered on individual spells, not on the collection of spells taken together.</p> <p>Of course, such a spell would need a good drawback to match manaburns drawback, lets say it puts a dot on you that kills you 2 seconds after you finish casting it.</p> <p>But the sad thing is, even though 6 million damage is far to much to load on a single cast, you missed the point, the point was that the balance between different classes would scale differently as people gained gear.  You keep pointing this out, how this hurt conj's in previous expansions because as we gained gear, our pets did not benefit at the same rate and we failed to keep up with the other classes.  EXACTLY THE SAME THING would happen if manaburn and lifeburn critted.  They would scale faster from gear then every other spell in the game, making them impossible to balance.  Just as every other class used to scale faster then us because our pets did not scale.</p> <p>I am having trouble grasping how dense you are in not getting this, you clearly understand some of the basic principles involved, you are just refusing to spend 5 seconds thinking about it without your irrational naive disgust at some things not critting.</p>

[Banditman]

<p>And your insulting tone is not necessary for a conversation.</p><p>Using reductio ad absurdum to show that DPS is a function of recast is not relevant here, as you should know.  The limits are fairly obvious.</p><p>With Manaburn, it's *already capped*.  It can't do more than some percentage of the overall health of the target.  Yes, that number might have to be changed.  The base value of the conversion of mana to damage might have to be changed.  Heck, you might just de-couple the Manaburn value from the value of "Maximum Mana", ie Manaburn still takes away all your mana, but it bases the burn value on some fixed value multiplied by the percentage of "Maximum Mana" currently available to the caster.</p>

[RedIris]

<p>Decoupling manaburn from max mana, and likewise lifeburn from max health, would allow them to crit and still scale appropriately.  However your fixation on the purity of all skills being mechanically identical is neither necessary nor desirable. </p> <p>The problem of scaling is solved by scaling off mana/health rather then critting and I have no desire to see unique skills in the game reduced to vanilla versions of every other skill in the game to solve a non existent problem that you believes exists because you did not consider how the skill still appropriately scales.</p> <p>The point of the reductio ad absurdum was to show that dps is <strong>NOT</strong> purely a fuction of recast.  You are the one that only considered the damage vs recast.  When I use absurd damage with absurd recast, while maintaing your desired ratio, I can show that you can easily reach absurd dps.  This demonstrates that there are other factors then just damage and recast that are very signifigant to dps that you are ignoring.</p>

[Banditman]

<p>Damage is a function of recast until you take it to ridiculous levels.  It only becomes more a function of cast time when the fight is shorter than the recast.  Even then, you still prioritize.  So if you have a 20 second fight and know that these 10 spells are your highest damage per cast time, you cast the longest recast spells first.</p><p>Yes, there needs to be a purity of function in order to better handle balance issues.  SOE has SEVEN YEARS of history to show that when things are inconsistent, balance becomes a problem.  Changing Manaburn and Lifeburn to fall within the established mechanics of the game will in no way take away their unique characteristics.  Manaburn will still cost you all your mana and do massive damage to the target.  Likewise Lifeburn.</p><p>The only thing you gain is a far more streamlined method of keeping them progressing with everything else in the game.</p><p>It's not just Manaburn and Lifeburn.  Crusader heals fall here as well.  Damage procs.  Etc.  There are many examples of things that are exempted from the proper mechanical progression of the game.</p>

[RedIris]

<p>Dps is not mostly a function of recast, you have a misconception there.</p> <p>There is no problem with manaburn and lifeburn, they do not crit and they still scale, they are fine.  Changing them the way you want is not needed and would rob them of their unique characteristics in that it brings choices and variations in how those two classes gear/buff themselves out to maximize power and health.  Your solution would rob them of this unique characteristic.  Granted with the current vanilla style of gear, this variation in gear choice is non existent, but many have complained about this and sony has stated they will be adding variation back into the game.</p> <p>Other skills have scaling problems, temp pets, item procs, crusader heals, no argument there.</p> <p>Dps is a function of cast speed, damage over recast tells you the limit to which an individual spell can achieve.  To maximize overall dps you should cast the spells with the highest damage over cast time(+recovery) first.  There are considerations to this, such as wanting all the debuffs to be in before unloading the big hitters and aggro management, but in general this holds true.</p><p>As the highest damage spells tend to have the longest recast, there isn't much difference for conjs with respect to this, but you are still looking at it wrong.</p><p>Though depending on exactly what you mean, for example, you should never cast petrify if you can cast crystal blast.  if you disagree, then how you are looking at it is hurting your actual dps.</p>

[Banditman]

<p>Damage absolutely is largely a function of recast, until you get ridiculous with the recast.  It's all about knowing how long any fight is going to take.  If you have a 3:15 fight, with a 90 second recast on EB, you want to get that EB in pretty much immediately so you can get three of them.</p><p>The thing is, you are never really sure how long a fight might be, you really are working on generalities.  As such, you get your biggest hitting, longest recast abilities in first, in the hopes of getting more uses over the course of that fight.  Elemental Toxicity and Elemental Unity are the same way.</p><p>I suppose it is POSSIBLE for SOE to add some ability with such a ridiculously long cast time that you'd have to take it into account, but I don't know of any abilities currently in the game where this is relevant.</p><p>Frankly, Conjurors have it really easy in terms of cast rotations.  Most of our "personal" damage comes from five abilities:  EB, Soulburn, BA, FA and Crystal Blast.  Once you get past those five, you're really just optimizing the last 10-15% of your DPS.  Maybe the difference in doing 140k or 150k DPS.</p><p>It's neither here nor there however in terms of Conjuror class issues for DoV.</p>

[RedIris]

<p>20k damage .5 second cast 10 second recast 20k damage 1 second cast 8 second recast 20k damage 2.5 second cast 7 second recast 20k damage 5 second cast 5 second recast</p> <p>I've said it before, damage over recast is the max an individual spell can do but it has little to do with the priority that you should cast spells.  You are not trying to maximize an individual spell, you are trying to maximize your total dps.  The correct calculation is damage over cast time(+recovery).  The conj spell line up is such that this makes almost no difference, as noted by me and affirmed by you, that doesn't mean you get a pass at being wrong about it.</p> <p>If you don't feel it is relevant to the discussion, don't drop the relevent parts(manaburn lifeburn) and talk only about the irrelevant parts and then sign off by saying it doesn't matter.</p>

[Banditman]

<p>Manaburn and Lifeburn aren't relevant to this discussion either, it was simply an offhand remark I made during a discussion of why/how Flameshield doesn't crit.</p><p>Considering damage over cast time to be the be all of cast order is not correct.  As I said, you must consider recast when you have some knowledge of the overall fight length, especially when the length of the encounter is longer, but very close to, the recast of your highest damage spell.  It wouldn't matter if EB took 10 seconds to cast, if you had the opportunity to get one of them or two of them into a fight, you would invariably alter your cast order to get two in.</p><p>The fact of the matter is that there really isn't any hard and fast rule as to what order you cast anything in.  It's all a matter of knowledge.  Cast, recast and fight duration all have roles to play in determining what order a given spell is cast in.</p><p>To each their own.  I'll do it as I think best, you do it as you think best and we can agree to disagree.</p>

[RedIris]

<p>You know what, I came up with a mathematical example that didn't take recast to a ridiciolous level and shattered your logic of damage over recast being the end all of cast order determination.  Suddenly you are the reasonable one, despite this conversation starting when I stated there are many factors involved and you are wrong to consider recast.</p><p>Come up with a single example where you are right, just one, I dare you.  Use real spells, use made up spells, either is fine.  I don't even think you can do it when you consider fight length and try to get a specific spell in twice before fight ends. </p><p>You might have been able to do it if we might run out of spells to cast and have to consider recast to ensure that not having anything up never happens, but with our recast these days, that never happens.</p><p>Not only are you wrong to consider damage over recast to be the major consideration in cast order, you are wrong to think that damage over cast time isn't. Hell, what do you think dps even stands for?</p><p>Yes, there are factors that modify it, hate considerations, waiting for debuffs to land before hitting big stuff, not casting BA, toxicity, vestment at the end of fights, waiting for timewarp for the big stuff.  However, recast is not among them.</p><p>So prove me wrong, using any made up example you can.  Damage over recast has to come up with a different cast order then damage over cast time(+recovery) and the damage over recast has to have been the correct order. </p><p>I can come up with thousands of examples where you are wrong, all of them using reasonable numbers, can you come up with even one?</p>

[Inuki1]

<p>This thread is getting stupidly off track. </p>

[Rhadamanth]

<p><cite>Banditman wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Considering damage over cast time to be the be all of cast order is not correct.  It wouldn't matter if EB took 10 seconds to cast, if you had the opportunity to get one of them or two of them into a fight, you would invariably alter your cast order to get two in.</p></blockquote><p>Damage over cast time is the most important part to potential DPS.  If EB did 1 mil damage but took 100 seconds to cast + recovery, then it would do 10k DPS.  If all you did was spam that spell (no reuse time) then you could only do 10k DPS.  If another spell only did 10k damage but only took 1 second to cast + recovery, then it would also do 10k DPS.  Basically, if the highest Damage/Cast time spell you have is 10k DPS, there is NO way you could possibly do more DPS than that by yourself.  Reuse time only influences how much of your parse is affected by a particular spell's DPS.  It has no effect whatsoever on a spell's actual DPS capacity.  If you want to maximize DPS you want to cast spells with the highest Damage/Cast time.</p>

[Banditman]

<p><cite>Inuki1 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>This thread is getting stupidly off track. </p></blockquote><p>Thus the reason I am no longer pursuing those off topic posts.</p>

[Enderbsd]

<p>im bumping this in hopes it gets back on track.</p>