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Kimber

04-14-2011, 10:12 PM

Like the topic says lets see this happen.

Talathion

04-15-2011, 01:22 PM

I wish +1

Kimber

04-18-2011, 03:12 AM

Even got an easy way to do it for ya change reversal. Either make it apply to DW or add in a DW componant to it or something.

Kimber

05-02-2011, 05:27 AM

Or revamp our EOF tree which from what I understand is ahppening to Guards. Just a thought

Talathion

05-15-2011, 05:39 PM

You mean already happend to guards?

Tekadeo

05-15-2011, 07:12 PM

Would be cool to have an AA in our Shadows tree to mirror Knight's Stance, except giving us more damage when Dual Wielding or using a 2hander. Crazy that Crusaders got two literally amazing AA's in their 3rd line of the shadows tree (Knight's Stance and Phalanx-15% shield block), plus the game-changing Aura of the Crusader, and Warriors got...+100 CA damage and weak-butt Cry of the Warrior?

Talathion

05-15-2011, 07:45 PM

more like worthless Cry of the warrior, it has a 50% chance to get resisted.we need 15% damage to all weapons and damage reduction, cry of the warrior should be "reduces all damage done to caster or something"

Talathion

05-15-2011, 07:51 PM

we also need our entire tree revamped.

Kimber

05-16-2011, 02:30 AM

One thing at a time guys lol.The more I think about it changing Reversal would be nice I know allot of Guards DW when fighting trash for the DPS boost so adding something to do with DW on there would benifit both Zerks and Guards. Or here is a thought ( its a long one so sorry for the wall of text )Make Guards the only ones able to use Tower Shields and unable to DW or use 2 handersZerks Unable to use Tower shields but able to use Kite Shields ( lower the numbers on these a touch ) Able to DW but No 2 handersSK No Tower Shields Able to use Kite Shields and 2 Handers but no DW StillPally No Tower Sheilds able to use Kite Shields and 2 handers but no DW StillThis would make minor changes to how the Crusaders tank. The lower numbers on the Kite Shields would not make that much of a differance and if they added a chance to block on the 2 handers ( not as much as on the shields of course maybe 5% or something ). They would also need to change some of the aa to add some block chance while using a 2 hander also. It would not really change anything for the Guards as the Tower Sheilds would still be the best out there. There DPS would not be effected that much either. Zerks would have some adjusting to do but it would put us where we need to be imo add a lil block chance to some off handers for us add some block chance with off hander into our aa. Basicly give us a real DW spec we can go with.

Kimber

05-17-2011, 02:35 AM

How about a lil Red name comment in on this be it aHey we will look into that good idea's guys.orROTFLMA are you serious.......

Rhita

05-17-2011, 04:50 AM

<cite>Kimber@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>One thing at a time guys lol.The more I think about it changing Reversal would be nice I know allot of Guards DW when fighting trash for the DPS boost so adding something to do with DW on there would benifit both Zerks and Guards. Or here is a thought ( its a long one so sorry for the wall of text )Make Guards the only ones able to use Tower Shields and unable to DW or use 2 handersZerks Unable to use Tower shields but able to use Kite Shields ( lower the numbers on these a touch ) Able to DW but No 2 handersSK No Tower Shields Able to use Kite Shields and 2 Handers but no DW StillPally No Tower Sheilds able to use Kite Shields and 2 handers but no DW StillThis would make minor changes to how the Crusaders tank. The lower numbers on the Kite Shields would not make that much of a differance and if they added a chance to block on the 2 handers ( not as much as on the shields of course maybe 5% or something ). They would also need to change some of the aa to add some block chance while using a 2 hander also. It would not really change anything for the Guards as the Tower Sheilds would still be the best out there. There DPS would not be effected that much either. Zerks would have some adjusting to do but it would put us where we need to be imo add a lil block chance to some off handers for us add some block chance with off hander into our aa. Basicly give us a real DW spec we can go with.</blockquote>While I agree every tank should have their specialty. It would make it next to impossible for a guardian to hold aggro sword and board unless they got some kind of bonus. Also block chance wont do anything on a 2hander or DW weapon. You would need like dodge/parry chance/ riposte, something uncontested for those.

Kimber

05-17-2011, 05:31 AM

Last I checked Guards really dont have much trouble holding aggro with the right set up. If they need a boost for it then give it to them just ensure that it is in line with the rest of the tanks.As for the block chance on the 2H or off hand for DW it could be anything just so long as the avoidance/block chance has some sort of balance to it for example ( just going with some even %'s here to keep it simple )Guard would have say 30% avoid and 70% block while using Sword and Tower ShieldZerk would have say 40% avoid and 60% block with Sword and Kite Shield and 60% avoid and 40% block DWSk would have 35% avoid and 65% block with Sword and Kite Shield and 55% avoid and 45% block with 2HPally would have 45% avoid and 55% block with Sword and Kite Shield and 35% avoid and 65% block with 2HI know that is prolly not how it really would need to be or anything just a way to show what I am thinking that way they are all balanced though and each does thier job in a differant way yet can still do the job no mater which spec they go with. Would it be better for a Pally to go with Sword and kite prolly would it be better for a Zerk to go with DW for the higher avoid prolly get hit less but less chance to block also. You can see where I am going though and while it my need allot of work the basic idea seems sound. At least to me it does.

Talathion

05-17-2011, 01:13 PM

<cite>Kimber@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>Last I checked Guards really dont have much trouble holding aggro with the right set up. If they need a boost for it then give it to them just ensure that it is in line with the rest of the tanks.As for the block chance on the 2H or off hand for DW it could be anything just so long as the avoidance/block chance has some sort of balance to it for example ( just going with some even %'s here to keep it simple )Guard would have say 30% avoid and 70% block while using Sword and Tower ShieldZerk would have say 40% avoid and 60% block with Sword and Kite Shield and 60% avoid and 40% block DWSk would have 35% avoid and 65% block with Sword and Kite Shield and 55% avoid and 45% block with 2HPally would have 45% avoid and 55% block with Sword and Kite Shield and 35% avoid and 65% block with 2HI know that is prolly not how it really would need to be or anything just a way to show what I am thinking that way they are all balanced though and each does thier job in a differant way yet can still do the job no mater which spec they go with. Would it be better for a Pally to go with Sword and kite prolly would it be better for a Zerk to go with DW for the higher avoid prolly get hit less but less chance to block also. You can see where I am going though and while it my need allot of work the basic idea seems sound. At least to me it does.</blockquote>Zerkers do not rely on avoidance.Zerkers do not use shields.Zerkers Rely on Damage Reduction.Thank you.

SOE-MOD-02

05-17-2011, 03:10 PM

Please remember that the GREAT thing about these forums is the help that everyone can bring to them. Disagreeing is fine, but insulting someone for having different views is not. Thank you!

Rhita

05-17-2011, 04:05 PM

<cite>Failathion@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Kimber@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>Last I checked Guards really dont have much trouble holding aggro with the right set up. If they need a boost for it then give it to them just ensure that it is in line with the rest of the tanks.As for the block chance on the 2H or off hand for DW it could be anything just so long as the avoidance/block chance has some sort of balance to it for example ( just going with some even %'s here to keep it simple )Guard would have say 30% avoid and 70% block while using Sword and Tower ShieldZerk would have say 40% avoid and 60% block with Sword and Kite Shield and 60% avoid and 40% block DWSk would have 35% avoid and 65% block with Sword and Kite Shield and 55% avoid and 45% block with 2HPally would have 45% avoid and 55% block with Sword and Kite Shield and 35% avoid and 65% block with 2HI know that is prolly not how it really would need to be or anything just a way to show what I am thinking that way they are all balanced though and each does thier job in a differant way yet can still do the job no mater which spec they go with. Would it be better for a Pally to go with Sword and kite prolly would it be better for a Zerk to go with DW for the higher avoid prolly get hit less but less chance to block also. You can see where I am going though and while it my need allot of work the basic idea seems sound. At least to me it does.</blockquote>Zerkers do not rely on avoidance.Zerkers do not use shields.Zerkers Rely on Damage Reduction.Thank you.</blockquote>Tuor, what you are asking for is a scout tank, as in they never put on a shield and do nothing but dps. While a zerker is supposed to be the dps tank. They are still a tank and should not have greater survivability while duel wielding. Zerkers do not rely on damage reduction. That old adrenaline was way too powerful considering with gear choices zerkers could hit 72% damage reduction. While i'll agree that the new adrenaline was far too underpowered. I'd still take the new one over the crummy recapture that guardians have. Every tank relies on avoidance while tanking to stay alive. Berserkers do need some type of defensive ability to block spike damage but not 50% damage reduction. Should be changed to like 15% reduction and 35% healed.

Talathion

05-17-2011, 06:17 PM

Blocking is stupid, Zerkers are weilding 2 weapons, or a giant sword, we should be taking hits and being aggressive.Not Avoiding or Dodging attacks.We're not Monks.I'll never support anything except "Damage Reduction" or "Healed when hit".We have so many abilitys that require us getting hit, even our mythical.Why ruin all of this by giving us avoidance? I try to get mine as low as possible.

Rhita

05-17-2011, 06:31 PM

<cite>Failathion@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>Blocking is stupid, Zerkers are weilding 2 weapons, or a giant sword, we should be taking hits and being aggressive.Not Avoiding or Dodging attacks.We're not Monks.I'll never support anything except "Damage Reduction" or "Healed when hit".We have so many abilitys that require us getting hit, even our mythical.Why ruin all of this by giving us avoidance? I try to get mine as low as possible.</blockquote>LOL

Kimber

05-17-2011, 07:08 PM

What I put up there I did to keep it simple and to show that it should be balanced. It does not take into account rip or parry or any of that. All those things can be added in though and I am sure the Devs can figure out what that balance would need to be. The whole point of this thread is to see if we can get something that will give us a real DW spec.

Kimber

05-17-2011, 11:31 PM

<cite>Kimber@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>Guard would have say 15% avoid 10% parry 5% rip 35% block and 35% outright damage reduc while using Sword and Tower ShieldZerk would have say 10% avoid 15% parry 15% rip 30% block and 30% outright damage reduc with Sword and Kite Shield or 15% avoid 22.5% parry 22.5% rip 20% block and 20% outright damage reduc DWSk would have 15% avoid 10% parry 10% rip 35% block and 30% outright damage reduc with Sword and Kite Shield or 20% avoid 17.5% parry 17.5% rip 25% block and 20% outright damage reduc with 2HPally would have 17.5% avoid 20% parry 17.5% rip 27.5% block and 27.5% outright damage reduc with Sword and Kite Shield or 10% avoid 15% parry and 10% rip 32.5% block and 32.5% outright damage reduc with 2H</blockquote>Here I will edit the stuff to make it more in line with what you are wanting to see. Just so it makes more sense to you even though I went with broad terms to keep it simple. Now this would change things a lil bit from my previous stament about pally as with it all set up like this pally would want to have a big 2H I would think but again you see the point. I hope.Edit to add,No I dont think that these are the end all be all values that we should be using either. Its just and example of how balance could be achieved and give each of the plate tanks a way to do thier job that is differant from the other or they can all use sword and board.

Silzin

05-18-2011, 09:47 AM

<cite>Kimber@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Kimber@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>Guard would have say 15% avoid 10% parry 5% rip 35% block and 35% outright damage reduc while using Sword and Tower ShieldZerk would have say 10% avoid 15% parry 15% rip 30% block and 30% outright damage reduc with Sword and Kite Shield or 15% avoid 22.5% parry 22.5% rip 20% block and 20% outright damage reduc DWSk would have 15% avoid 10% parry 10% rip 35% block and 30% outright damage reduc with Sword and Kite Shield or 20% avoid 17.5% parry 17.5% rip 25% block and 20% outright damage reduc with 2HPally would have 17.5% avoid 20% parry 17.5% rip 27.5% block and 27.5% outright damage reduc with Sword and Kite Shield or 10% avoid 15% parry and 10% rip 32.5% block and 32.5% outright damage reduc with 2H</blockquote>Here I will edit the stuff to make it more in line with what you are wanting to see. Just so it makes more sense to you even though I went with broad terms to keep it simple. Now this would change things a lil bit from my previous stament about pally as with it all set up like this pally would want to have a big 2H I would think but again you see the point. I hope.Edit to add,No I dont think that these are the end all be all values that we should be using either. Its just and example of how balance could be achieved and give each of the plate tanks a way to do thier job that is differant from the other or they can all use sword and board.</blockquote> I have bin following this thread since it’s about tanking... and i am a tank... I am not trying to derail it, and I dont think you need/want to add the brawlers into your calculations... so I will get to what i want to say. I think I understand what you are trying to say here. That each tank would have less "outright damage reduc" when not using a shield, but would have more over all avoid when not using a shield. Thus making it so on hard fights when the mob hits hard you will need/want to use a shield but other then that you would always want to use a 2H or DW. If I am understanding this right? I have 3 major problems here. 1. Are the recommended amounts of Damage Reduction real amounts you want to see? 2. Are you really intending for all play tanks to gain avoidance over all when dropping a shield?3. Edit: also I don’t think you would want there to be different shield drops all of mobs that drop shields, with itemization as mest up as it is and drop rates the way they are… it would become a mess.

Talathion

05-18-2011, 12:30 PM

This thread has nothing to do with berserkers, can you move it to General Fighter Discussion?

Kimber

05-18-2011, 08:52 PM

@ SilzinNo these are not the values I would want really just put them there to show something and each set up adds up to 100% so its showing balance. Now since we can have more than 100% in this game well the values would be more and would need to be set with whatever it is we have now.Yes they would need to gain some avoid, parry or rip when not using a shield but it still not be OP to go that way if that makes any sense. How ever with the Pally and SK they need to be diff so as you can see for a Pally they loose avoid parry an rip when they use a 2 hander but gain block and out right damage reduc. This was done in my example to show that it can be differant but still balanced. This would also kinda balance them against SK in the DPS department. This however is not really what the thread is about as it is about getting a real DW spec for Zerks. I am just trying to show some sort of balance with it.As for itemeization you are correct in that it is [Removed for Content] atm and this would require more work on the Dev's part to make it work out but I think its what would need to happen to make it work out correctly to give Zerks a true DW spec.@FailWhile this thread does not really talk about what to change in the AA trees to give Zerks a true DW spec ( other than the mention of a change to Reversal ) I think that we need to start here as the game did not come with AA trees origanly ( from what I understand ) . So a change like this would need to take place with out the AA's first then move into the AA trees after the basic ground work has been laid out. Then we would need to look at AA and figure out what will still work and what will not. Change the things that will not work anymore and go from there. So this thread is all about Zerks the mention of the other Plate tanks is simple if you are talking about changing one of them you need to discuss all of them in order to keep balance or we end up with what we have now one or two of them up way up there and the rest falling way behind.

Talathion

05-19-2011, 04:09 AM

<cite>Kimber@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>@ SilzinNo these are not the values I would want really just put them there to show something and each set up adds up to 100% so its showing balance. Now since we can have more than 100% in this game well the values would be more and would need to be set with whatever it is we have now.Yes they would need to gain some avoid, parry or rip when not using a shield but it still not be OP to go that way if that makes any sense. How ever with the Pally and SK they need to be diff so as you can see for a Pally they loose avoid parry an rip when they use a 2 hander but gain block and out right damage reduc. This was done in my example to show that it can be differant but still balanced. This would also kinda balance them against SK in the DPS department. This however is not really what the thread is about as it is about getting a real DW spec for Zerks. I am just trying to show some sort of balance with it.As for itemeization you are correct in that it is [Removed for Content] atm and this would require more work on the Dev's part to make it work out but I think its what would need to happen to make it work out correctly to give Zerks a true DW spec.@FailWhile this thread does not really talk about what to change in the AA trees to give Zerks a true DW spec ( other than the mention of a change to Reversal ) I think that we need to start here as the game did not come with AA trees origanly ( from what I understand ) . So a change like this would need to take place with out the AA's first then move into the AA trees after the basic ground work has been laid out. Then we would need to look at AA and figure out what will still work and what will not. Change the things that will not work anymore and go from there. So this thread is all about Zerks the mention of the other Plate tanks is simple if you are talking about changing one of them you need to discuss all of them in order to keep balance or we end up with what we have now one or two of them up way up there and the rest falling way behind.</blockquote>classes are not suppost to be balanced.

Kimber

05-19-2011, 07:06 AM

<cite>Failathion@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>/snipclasses are not suppost to be balanced.</blockquote>So classes are not supposed to be balanced? Hmm lets see here 24 classes right.............. 24 Raid slots............ hmm balance is implied then. Granted an optimal Raid will not have all 24 classes as some classes are more desirable than others due to lack of balance also the fact that for 90% of the Raid encounters you do not need more than 2 tanks and most of those you can do with 1 tank if they are worth a [Removed for Content]. However each tank should be a viable option to use and for each tank to be a viable option thier needs to be some sort of balance it does not have to be perfect and each tank should do it in thier own way. No 1 class of tank should be way ahead of the others though like what happend in ROK or TSO. Again this thread is about getting us Zerks a viable DW spec and to do that some things are going to need to change to balance things with the other Plate tanks. Personaly I do not want to end up as a DW Plate scout because we got our DW spec but fell behind in other areas due to lack of balance. I also do not want to end up as the FOTM cause we got pushed ahead so far that the other tanks could not keep up. To get a proper DW spec we need balance or we will get it and either end up as a T2/T3 DPS that wears Plate and is not any good for tanking. Or we will end up with the rest of the Tanks crying for the nerf hammer.

Talathion

05-19-2011, 12:01 PM

<cite>Kimber@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Failathion@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>/snipclasses are not suppost to be balanced.</blockquote>So classes are not supposed to be balanced? Hmm lets see here 24 classes right.............. 24 Raid slots............ hmm balance is implied then. Granted an optimal Raid will not have all 24 classes as some classes are more desirable than others due to lack of balance also the fact that for 90% of the Raid encounters you do not need more than 2 tanks and most of those you can do with 1 tank if they are worth a [Removed for Content]. However each tank should be a viable option to use and for each tank to be a viable option thier needs to be some sort of balance it does not have to be perfect and each tank should do it in thier own way. No 1 class of tank should be way ahead of the others though like what happend in ROK or TSO. Again this thread is about getting us Zerks a viable DW spec and to do that some things are going to need to change to balance things with the other Plate tanks. Personaly I do not want to end up as a DW Plate scout because we got our DW spec but fell behind in other areas due to lack of balance. I also do not want to end up as the FOTM cause we got pushed ahead so far that the other tanks could not keep up. To get a proper DW spec we need balance or we will get it and either end up as a T2/T3 DPS that wears Plate and is not any good for tanking. Or we will end up with the rest of the Tanks crying for the nerf hammer.</blockquote>Brawlers can dualweild, have 67% Hardmode Raid Avoidance, and have the best death save in the game, and they're mitigation is higher then a plate tanks with temp buffs, without them its only less then 1% difference.This game is not nore will ever be Balanced.Paladins are the second best tanks in the game, have almost permament adrenaline, and unlike brawler don't have to watch they're hate, they can pretty much press they're temps and go AFK and hold aggro, the rest is cake, but this does nothing to help they're avoidance.These are just examples of why your post fails, because you are trying to balance us all defensively/offensively when you barley know what any of our classes or spells do, I can tell, because otherwise you would not be making a post were our stats are so much alike.There will not be a dual wield tree in this expansion, especially in our old EOF tree.We simply need proper fixes to it.

Kimber

05-19-2011, 07:04 PM

Hmm I guess you just dont get it that to achieve balance you have to start someplace and raising this spell or that spell to make up the diff is not where it needs to start ( this is why the game is so out of balance to begine with ). It needs to start with the basics and go from there. Which is why and to use your words "" why your post fails "" only in your case its due to the fact that you cannot see the basics and you just want Zerks to be OP or FOTM.As for getting the DW spec this exp I know that will not happen. If this happens it will not happen anytime soon and I would rather the Dev's take the time to fix the game right than to throw this in and take that out raise this and lower that and we end up OP or even more broken ( cause that is what being OP is its a broken class ).

Kimber

05-25-2011, 04:52 AM

So I have been thinking more about this and wondering when we will get a Red Name to put up a comment other than to tell anouther poster to be nice.I am also working on trying to get some real % numbers for a Zerk instead of the made up ones I put up there. We all know that making it equal out to 100% is not correct since at 90 if you add up the Parry, Avoid, Block, Damage Reduc and Rip it goes well over 100%

Costa

05-25-2011, 09:11 AM

Although i don't really know what the exact %'s need to be i do feel that we shouldn't have block if dual wielding.The way i'd like to see it is 1 handed weapons carry +parry chance or riposte chance for uncontested avoidance and 2handed weapons are the ones that carry +block. This way the zerks would gain in avoidance but at a cost of outright blocking an attack whilst dual wielding. The crusaders would then lose some of their uncontested avoidance on the 1 handers but have a better chance of blocking an attack when using 2 handers. In both circumstances the plate fighters should be at their most defensive, as Kimber has stated, whilst using their shields and 1 handers.

Kimber

05-25-2011, 09:51 PM

I have block in there and a value for it just because imo if we are DW all block that we have should go into Parry or Rip chance. However I am not sure how that would work cause it would need to go back into Block when we have a shield. So I was just keeping it there for now.

Kimber

05-30-2011, 07:42 PM

/tap While waiting for a Dev to look at this and say good ideas or ROTFLMAO