troub myth buff, lol [Archive] - EQ2 Forum Archive @ EQ2Wire

Wasuna

03-31-2011, 11:06 AM

Dirge Mythical BuffProc - 2.3 times a minute with 12s duration - When proc is up all melee damage will hit for Max Damage, all Autoattack Damage will increase by 20%.Combat Arts hit for 10% MoreCoB is raid wideTroubador Mythical BuffProc - 2.3 times a minute with 12s duration - When proc is up it increase the critical chance of the troubador by 15% and applies a ~881 damage proc to all attacks.Adds 10% to all damage spells cast by the groupMakes PoM raid wide.---------------------------------------------With the addition of large quantites of MultiAttack and the AoE melee attack adornmenrs, the Dirges DPS has sky rocketed above that of the Troubador. Also, the group 10% increase in damage spell makes the Troubador a more likely candidate for a Buff Bot Position.I have a troubador and I have never played a dirge. I do not play my Troubador much at all becasue there is very little sense of personal accomplishment. His buffs are awesome in the right group but the dirges are just as good if not better for the proper group for them.I hate that parses dominate the game but in the end, the power of the Troubador is well behind that of their sister class, the Dirge. Good Troubadors can put out fantastic DPS numbers but equally good Dirges can do much better.

iwillbackha

03-31-2011, 06:21 PM

Ive played the xpac since beta. You must of not raided lately have you? Busy doing PQ's heh?I have 280% crit chance with SF raid gear and 2 weapons + bow from DOV. That is more than you need for pq's, instances, easymode raids in the xpac. Soon as i start winning raid gear i will be well over 300% crit, which is needed for one mob.The 15% crit chance from the myth as i said will be obsolete, everyone will max crit if you raid. That is what the myth buff is for: to benefit raiders since it was originally only obtained by raiding. Not to benefit you people who only do PQ's and instances.There are no troubs to come to my defense cause there are none left lol.

Kunaak

04-01-2011, 09:48 AM

a dirge can basically double thier parse, with autoattacks and thier mythical buff.it was never this bad in previous expansions, but now max damage on combat arts a .20 increase in auto attack damage, and proc increases, crit bonus and uncapped DA, dirge DPS has skyrocketd past troub DPS.we have dirges parsing 140k on 10 min fights, and gaining almost 70% of thier DPS from auto attacks. the exact same dirges, I went toe to toe with the whole SF expansion, can now double my parse - because of a single proc.

Raahl

04-01-2011, 11:02 AM

Do the Troubadors stand in melee range and Auto attack? It's been ages since I was a Troubador.Looking at the parses around.Super dirges can parse up to 120k dps on certain mobs with optimal group setup.Super troubadors can parse up to 100k dps on certain mobs with optimal group setup.Though on average it seems top end dirges and troubadors are pretty close 60k-80k.I'm no where near this with my dirge. Best to date is 22k on a trash mob. I average 11-15k. Less if I have to rez.But back on topic. I could understand a Troubador's request to change the crit chance to something. But lets not get into talking nerfs for dirges.

iwillbackha

04-01-2011, 11:53 PM

The mid range guild im in that raids 3 days a week, the dirge are parsing 60-80k, and us troubs vary from 30-45k depending what buffs are up and how many scouts are in group. Sure as you say a super troub can parse up to 100k but in that same parse the dirge is doing 150k.I dont want a nerf to the dirge buff, i want a boost to the troub buff to level things out.Do the Troubadors stand in melee range and Auto attack?No troubs arent scouts silly.

Kunaak

04-02-2011, 10:00 AM

if your not even playing a troub, and just guessing.... dont post in this.thats not helping.

Lethe5683

04-03-2011, 01:09 AM

<cite>Notsovilepriest@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>iwillbackhand wrote:</cite><blockquote>/whine onSeriouly change it please. 15 crit chance is and has been useless, cause its always easy to max. Then all we end up with is a low mental damge proc, that is superbly inferior to the dirge myth proc.Take away the crit chance and the damage proc and make all our hostile spells hit for max damage or something./whine off</blockquote>You must be new to the expansion</blockquote>The 15% crit chance on a proc is hardly very usefull, especially compared to what dirges get.<cite>iwillbackhand wrote:</cite><blockquote>There are no troubs to come to my defense cause there are none left lol.</blockquote>I am a troub and I agree with you completly. The 15% crit chance is trivial at best.

Shotneedle

04-03-2011, 02:27 AM

First, dirge myth buff doesn't give us 20% auto attack damage. That's pvp only.Just gonna say. Top of the top here, Dirges can do 110-160k, Troubs can do 80-120k. That isn't really double, imo.However, dirge myth is the most OP of all myths. I'm not very happy with this thread because it will end up getting dirges nerfed instead of troubadors buffed. I would approve of troubadors getting max hit on spells instead of the 15% crit proc though.

Lethe5683

04-03-2011, 03:44 AM

<cite>Buffratx@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>First, dirge myth buff doesn't give us 20% auto attack damage. That's pvp only.</blockquote>Technically it doesn't but it has about the same result as if it did.

Wurm

04-03-2011, 05:49 AM

<cite>Buffratx@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>I'm not very happy with this thread because it will end up getting dirges nerfed instead of troubadors buffed.</blockquote>Yep, because like I said in another recent thread, if you want something for your class fixed, don't compare it to another classe's ability and whine.SOE has proven over and over and over again that they would rather nerf than fix. So all anyone ever does by complaining about something they have, in comparasion to something someone else has, is get the other person's ability nerfed.You'd think people would have figured that out by now, but aparently not.

Lethe5683

04-03-2011, 10:25 PM

<cite>Wurm wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Buffratx@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>I'm not very happy with this thread because it will end up getting dirges nerfed instead of troubadors buffed.</blockquote>Yep, because like I said in another recent thread, if you want something for your class fixed, don't compare it to another classe's ability and whine.SOE has proven over and over and over again that they would rather nerf than fix. So all anyone ever does by complaining about something they have, in comparasion to something someone else has, is get the other person's ability nerfed.You'd think people would have figured that out by now, but aparently not.</blockquote>Better they nerf dirges then than do nothing at all, although I would greatly prefer that the troub myth buff just gets made more useful.

Kunaak

04-03-2011, 11:45 PM

troubs need help right now.I really hate logging in and playing a troub these days, cause its simply impossible to compete on DPS.the one fun thing I get to do with the toon, is now a major point of frustration. even clerics and mystics can keep up with our DPS. no scout wants to be the absolute lowest on the parse, below healers.today, I parsed 93k, and that was about 10th from the bottom.I am at 172 crit bonus, 152 potency, and 354 MA, 302 crit - and all this is adding up to almost nothing. gear seems to have tiny increases in DPS, meanwhile a single item for a dirge, seems to increase thier DPS by a ton. the more geared a dirge gets, the farther the gap becomes.our dirges auto attack damage, is 80k on most fights - thats usually more then my entire parse.60-70% of thier damage, is coming from auto attacks alone.nerfing dirges isnt the answer, cause then all your doing is making them hate play thier toons, as much as us troubs are starting to dread logging in to play these toons. no scout wants to be the lowest DPS, barely able to beat healers.troubs need help.

Lethe5683

04-04-2011, 01:20 AM

<cite>Kunaak wrote:</cite><blockquote>nerfing dirges isnt the answer, cause then all your doing is making them hate play thier toons, as much as us troubs are starting to dread logging in to play these toons. no scout wants to be the lowest DPS, barely able to beat healers.troubs need help.</blockquote>I agree, I don't want dirges nerfed but rather troubs buffed. Unfortunatly they are more likely to nerf dirges than buff troubs, but at least that will make things a bit more fair.

Banditman

04-04-2011, 10:03 AM

Honestly, the thread has been very well constructed thus far. No one has asked for Dirges to get whacked. There was a legitimate request for a look at what Troubs get, and it seems pretty obvious that it's needed.There really isn't anyone else a Troub can compare to. Dirge is absolutely the most valid point of comparison, and right now Troubs don't stack up and need some help.The problem with giving Troubs a spell based equivalent to what Dirges have is that in the end it won't be equivalent. The Dirge buff improves all melee attacks - including auto attack. That's the real issue here. Troubs need something to bring their auto attack up to the level of Dirges.

Wasuna

04-04-2011, 11:15 AM

Troubadors need a boost. I have a 90 Troubador that I just don't play unless friends need him for something.

Lethe5683

04-04-2011, 12:28 PM

<cite>Banditman wrote:</cite><blockquote>Honestly, the thread has been very well constructed thus far. No one has asked for Dirges to get whacked. There was a legitimate request for a look at what Troubs get, and it seems pretty obvious that it's needed.There really isn't anyone else a Troub can compare to. Dirge is absolutely the most valid point of comparison, and right now Troubs don't stack up and need some help.The problem with giving Troubs a spell based equivalent to what Dirges have is that in the end it won't be equivalent. The Dirge buff improves all melee attacks - including auto attack. That's the real issue here. Troubs need something to bring their auto attack up to the level of Dirges.</blockquote>Troubs could get the same bonus to melee autoattack (but not CAs) and a bonus to spell damage to whatever extent is needed to catch up the rest.

Banditman

04-04-2011, 12:46 PM

Frankly, how it is done is irrelevant. It needs to be discussed and addressed. If the developers find that Dirges are inappropriately high in the DPS food chain, then they'll have to address that.There are really only two potential situations here. A) Troubadors are too low, and need to be built up. This brings with it the corollary that there could potentially be other classes who also are sitting inappropriately low and will also need to be adjusted.B) Dirges are too high, and need to be reined in.It's really just another exercise in attempting to understand the development vision of all the classes and where they feel each needs to be. Lacking the promised "manifesto" on the ongoing development vision for the game, we are left to speculate and compare the existing dynamics and point out irregularities as we see them.That's exactly what is happening in this thread.

erratic

04-04-2011, 02:19 PM

<cite>Kunaak wrote:</cite><blockquote>troubs need help right now.I really hate logging in and playing a troub these days, cause its simply impossible to compete on DPS.the one fun thing I get to do with the toon, is now a major point of frustration. even clerics and mystics can keep up with our DPS. no scout wants to be the absolute lowest on the parse, below healers.today, I parsed 93k, and that was about 10th from the bottom.I am at 172 crit bonus, 152 potency, and 354 MA, 302 crit - and all this is adding up to almost nothing. gear seems to have tiny increases in DPS, meanwhile a single item for a dirge, seems to increase thier DPS by a ton. the more geared a dirge gets, the farther the gap becomes.our dirges auto attack damage, is 80k on most fights - thats usually more then my entire parse.60-70% of thier damage, is coming from auto attacks alone.nerfing dirges isnt the answer, cause then all your doing is making them hate play thier toons, as much as us troubs are starting to dread logging in to play these toons. no scout wants to be the lowest DPS, barely able to beat healers.troubs need help.</blockquote>I went ahead and found a sample parse (Melee only) from some of my guilds scouts to highlight the issue. For some reason my guilds troubs seem to have a much higher miss rate than other scouts (lack of accuracy maybe?) additionally since they are in caster groups their dps mod is a lot lower than other scouts. But even with those two problems fixed the dps of a troubs auto attack would probably fall a little short of the Swashbucklers (Auto attack increasing AA).With that said I don't think the troub's auto attack is that much worse off, other than the fact that due to group set up they aren't getting the same melee stats the dirges are getting (accuracy, and dps). The only number here that seems alarming to me is the Dirge's compared to the other scouts.Also in this parse the dirge is using 6 second delays while I believe the rest of the scouts are using 4 second delays (the 6 second rarely drop for us).<img src="http://i.imgur.com/pns2X.jpg" width="1004" height="330" />

Celuin

04-04-2011, 02:34 PM

I guess I don't feel that dirges are parsing too high. I'm a dirge, and comparatively geared, my Raidwide DPS % is the same as its always been, between 5 and 6%. I could scale that up to say 8% but while the number has increased, my overall Raid DPS has not. I raid most of the content offered thus far in DoV.I *DO* feel that the troub mythical needs to be addressed. I'm a former longtime troub, and really its effectiveness was deteriorated when the proc damage nerf was implemented. That really hurt Ayonic Hymn's damage, and made it a lot less effective than originally implemented. I feel that the previous posters have it right, and it would enable a uniqueness between dirges and troubs to allow for their spells to hit for max damage just like dirge melee dps. I feel that their current abilities on the Mythical should stay in-tact too.

Raahl

04-04-2011, 02:39 PM

Untill we come up with a parse with a similar group setup, we cannot compare the scout classes melee Auto Attack. Because the Dirges are in groups that complement their abilities and Troubadors not so much.Group setup makes a big difference in my DPS. The problem isn't with Troubadors myth buff as much as it's that they are almost always in mage groups which buff spells and not melee.Dirges really shine in melee groups because they are melee based. Place a Dirge in a spell based group and IMO the are in the same boat as the Troubador.BTW - How about we compare the non-Melee damage between the scout classes? I suspect that Dirges would be low man on the totem pole.Again - I have no problems with the Troubadors getting some love.

Banditman

04-04-2011, 02:56 PM

See, I disagree with that, almost totally.What is brought to a group by someone OTHER than a Dirge that improves the Dirge melee DPS?Typically, Dirges are MT / OT players. Probably having a Templar, Plate Tank, Shaman (usually Defiler), Coercer and some other melee DPS like an Assassin or Swashy.So, yea, the Coercer brings DPS mod . . . but Dirges already have that as one of their buffs and given the current itemization, it's not really all that valuable. Templars bring a little bit of weapon skill . . . but simply completing a couple solo HO's makes that totally irrelevant for any Scout.Where Troubs buff casting skill, Dirges buff melee skill. Where Dirges get a focus to add 10% accuracy to their group, Troubadors get . . . uh . . . 9% trigger chance to Aria?When you think about it, most of the melee buffs a Dirge uses are his own!This is sort of what everyone is saying. A Dirge simply buffs himself better to do damage. Troubadors buff others just fine, thank you very much. The problem is, their damage doesn't benefit from their own buffs the way Dirges do.

Celuin

04-04-2011, 03:02 PM

Again, boosting Troubador melee dps probably is the wrong way to go. The class simply is not built to do massive amounts of melee dps and it never has been. Even if you gave it more accuracy, troubadors hit like a wet noodle so I don't even see why that would help matters much.On the other hand, increasing its buff effectiveness, giving a ton more *active* buffs rather than being almost exclusively passive, and boosting the Mythical proc to do something useful beyond the horribly nerfed proc damage would greatly increase the fun that people have playing the class.EDIT: The reason why they hit so soft with melee dmg, is typically they are not in a group that grants a great deal of +dps rather than anything inherently wrong with the class.

Raahl

04-04-2011, 03:04 PM

<cite>Banditman wrote:</cite><blockquote>See, I disagree with that, almost totally.What is brought to a group by someone OTHER than a Dirge that improves the Dirge melee DPS?Typically, Dirges are MT / OT players. Probably having a Templar, Plate Tank, Shaman (usually Defiler), Coercer and some other melee DPS like an Assassin or Swashy.So, yea, the Coercer brings DPS mod . . . but Dirges already have that as one of their buffs and given the current itemization, it's not really all that valuable. Templars bring a little bit of weapon skill . . . but simply completing a couple solo HO's makes that totally irrelevant for any Scout.Where Troubs buff casting skill, Dirges buff melee skill. Where Dirges get a focus to add 10% accuracy to their group, Troubadors get . . . uh . . . 9% trigger chance to Aria?When you think about it, most of the melee buffs a Dirge uses are his own!This is sort of what everyone is saying. A Dirge simply buffs himself better to do damage. Troubadors buff others just fine, thank you very much. The problem is, their damage doesn't benefit from their own buffs the way Dirges do.</blockquote>Inquisitors and other melee scouts/tanks also have some buffs for melee. Haste is one big example, self buffed I'm ~60-70%. In a raid group I'm >200. This is huge in making my attacks faster.Troubadors benefit from their own buffs, They cast spells don't they? Perhaps it would be better to buff the spell casting ablilities of the Troubador than buff the melee ones?

Yimway

04-04-2011, 03:10 PM

Base auto attack modifiers was a bad thing to mess with, for any class. Scaling issues abound, but again, I've been saying that since before last expansion.The troub crit chance should be translated to something game relevant, just as many other abilities and aa's spread accross many, many classes.The dirge ability is too large with MA and Flurry chances constantly rising.It would make more since to me for both classes to get a critbonus proc and be done with it.

Wasuna

04-04-2011, 03:21 PM

<cite>erratic wrote:</cite><blockquote><img src="http://i.imgur.com/pns2X.jpg" width="1004" height="330" /></blockquote>In case some of you missed the data. This is one sampling but all of the scouts have 1000+ swings.Post your own data if you care to dispute this. Data is what proves the situation.

Silzin

04-04-2011, 03:34 PM

<cite>Wasuna wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>erratic wrote:</cite><blockquote><img src="http://i.imgur.com/pns2X.jpg" width="1004" height="330" /></blockquote>In case some of you missed the data. This is one sampling but all of the scouts have 1000+ swings.Post your own data if you care to dispute this. Data is what proves the situation.</blockquote>First I think that this needs looked at a lot more. But before a parce like this is taken out of context gear and AA set ups need to be taken into acount, as well of group setup. A testing stander needs to be created so all 4 of the classes are ether gettingthe same set of buffs or are dpsing solo. also they need to be using the same or equal gear. 1 using a 6 sec weapon and the others using 4s and just looking at Auto attach DMG isnt even. Just my thoughts.

Banditman

04-04-2011, 03:51 PM

<cite>Raahl wrote:</cite><blockquote>Inquisitors and other melee scouts/tanks also have some buffs for melee. Haste is one big example, self buffed I'm ~60-70%. In a raid group I'm >200. This is huge in making my attacks faster.Troubadors benefit from their own buffs, They cast spells don't they? Perhaps it would be better to buff the spell casting ablilities of the Troubador than buff the melee ones?</blockquote>I am well aware of what Inquisitors bring, but Dirges rarely find themselves in these groups. The point here is that the benefits a Dirge receives from other classes in his GROUP are minor in comparison to the benefits he receives from the buffs he himself provides for his own melee DPS.When you look now at a Dirge parse, what you see is that approximately 50% of his damage is melee auto attack. That is immense. His melee attacks hit significantly harder even when using weapons identical to a control parse.Sure, perhaps Troubs do need some additional benefit to their spell abilities which improves the performance of same. However, that is not where the greatest disparity currently resides. The problem is not in the abilities, it is in the auto attack.I do agree with what Atan said, messing with auto attack multipliers is bad juju. Unfortunately, that is EXACTLY what is happening already with the current Dirge buff.Troubs need to be fixed, for real. I don't want to see Dirges get whacked in the process. However, there is no where else to look for a valid comparison, and right now, the comparison is grossly slanted in the Dirges favor. The same sort of thing applies to Illusionists tbh. They (still) don't compare very favorably to Coercers, and it needs to be addressed.

erratic

04-04-2011, 04:09 PM

<cite>Silzin wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Wasuna wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>erratic wrote:</cite><blockquote><img src="http://i.imgur.com/pns2X.jpg" width="1004" height="330" /></blockquote>In case some of you missed the data. This is one sampling but all of the scouts have 1000+ swings.Post your own data if you care to dispute this. Data is what proves the situation.</blockquote>First I think that this needs looked at a lot more. But before a parce like this is taken out of context gear and AA set ups need to be taken into acount, as well of group setup. A testing stander needs to be created so all 4 of the classes are ether gettingthe same set of buffs or are dpsing solo. also they need to be using the same or equal gear. 1 using a 6 sec weapon and the others using 4s and just looking at Auto attach DMG isnt even. Just my thoughts.</blockquote>The dirge and swashbuckler were in the same group, the dirge had bc (there is no doubt that it benefits the dirge more than traditional scout classes now a day). They were in the mt group with a coercer. I'd say gear is roughly equal, and while the 6 second weapons hit harder, the 4 second weapons have lots of MA that the 6 seconds don't.The assassin was in the OT group with an illy and a bruiser I believe.The troub was in a caster group.I encourage others to parse data, I went through my ACT and looked at numerous fights and the results were similiar. I tried to find a solo target fight (so that ae auto didn't screw the numbers too much). This is a hardmode fight, with what I consider a traditional setup. Personally I feel comparing classes in a sandbox doesn't help much, its their real world performance that matters. If you give the troub a dirge, coercer, illy, inquis and bruiser he'll parse awesome, but how often does that happen?I'd be in agreement to changing the troub myth to something like accuracy or dps instead of crit. With their traditional setups I believe it would be more useful to them. Honestly I'd like to see all myths be given a second look, many classes have myths that are marginal or useless, while a few have myths that are insanely powerful.I do believe however that the dirge myth will have to be changed one day, maybe not today but remember right now we're at roughly 350 MA, the benefits are only growing as we get more and more MA in an expansion or two I don't think seeing 800MA will be unreasonable given the current growth rate. Personally I don't feel bards should not have a stronger auto attack tham assassins. I also understand that this is an ability dirge's have had a long time and nerfing it will upset a lot of their player base.

tfetterman

04-04-2011, 04:30 PM

Seriously, what is wrong with while the proc is up giving troubs max spell damage plus a 20% multiplier (potency)? It's equivalent to what dirges get on melee. It won't be nearly as good as the dirge proc since no matter how much anyone argues, troubs are still scouts. However, it will level the playing field significantly.

erratic

04-04-2011, 04:34 PM

<cite>tfetterman wrote:</cite><blockquote>Seriously, what is wrong with while the proc is up giving troubs max spell damage plus a 20% multiplier (potency)? It's equivalent to what dirges get on melee. It won't be nearly as good as the dirge proc since no matter how much anyone argues, troubs are still scouts. However, it will level the playing field significantly.</blockquote>The arguement is the dirge ability is most likely overpowered, so the answer isn't to give another overpowered ability out to compensate for the first one. If we do that then if/when the day comes that they fix the dirge ability the troub ability will just need to be fix with it.I agree the troubs could use something (due mainly to the fact that they don't get many buffs to help their dps in the groups they most common run in) I'm more inclined to say accuracy/dps mod or something of a similiar ilk.Also keep in mind when looking at other myths, the swashbuckler myth adds 10 potency and some debuff improvements, so asking for 20 potency and a max damage proc seems overkill in comparison. Myth buffs are several expansions old, many of them are marginalized already, they shouldn't remain game changing forever, or if they do they should be that way for everyone.

tfetterman

04-04-2011, 04:55 PM

90%+ of this post is against nerfing the dirge. So please, try again.

Yimway

04-04-2011, 05:13 PM

The issue isn't specific to the dirge. Other classes that get a base autoattack buff will demonstrate the same issues when they're able to stack on the same amounts of MA and Flurry chance (late this expansion or next).Base auto attack modifiers scale to strongly as we up swing chance / min. A flat damage proc, or CB bonus is a more manageable buff in terms of scaling.

Celuin

04-04-2011, 05:19 PM

I strongly disagree. All that does is provide an outdated buff that we'll have the same post on in one xpac, thus putting bards in the same boat they're in already.

Wasuna

04-04-2011, 06:43 PM

<cite>Celuin wrote:</cite><blockquote>I strongly disagree. All that does is provide an outdated buff that we'll have the same post on in one xpac, thus putting bards in the same boat they're in already.</blockquote>What your saying in this comment is that the Troubador buff is wrong and the Dirge buff is OK. In general I agree but bards bring to much to the table to even be in the same playing field as T1 DPS. I don't like nerfs at all but Dirges do WAY to much DPS for all the buffs and benefits they bring to a group/raid.As Atan said, flat multiplers always end up failing becasue players are smart and figure out how to maximize it. Then you have exactly what you have now, classes that enjoy the benefits and classes that don't get the benefit and get upset. Also understand that they get upset for perfectly valid reasons.

Celuin

04-04-2011, 06:50 PM

I've not seen bards be in T1 dps range. I've seen high numbers, I post them myself. I'm pretty sure that if you look at the Raidwide dps, they're probably right at where they've always been. If I was in T1 dps I'd totally agree with you. Bards are pretty much T2 dps, and have been since RoK.

Lethe5683

04-04-2011, 11:37 PM

<cite>erratic wrote:</cite><blockquote>I'd be in agreement to changing the troub myth to something like accuracy or dps instead of crit. With their traditional setups I believe it would be more useful to them. Honestly I'd like to see all myths be given a second look, many classes have myths that are marginal or useless, while a few have myths that are insanely powerful.</blockquote> I can't possibly say "NO" enough time to that so I won't bother. An accuracy buff would be almost totally useless and a DPS buff would be an insult as bad as the +riposte damage on scout gear. I think crit bonus might be a good substitute for the crit chance although that wouldn't nearly make up that DPS difference between the two. As for what the dirge myth buff does exactly... I was never too clear on that. I know it increases their auto attack damage a heck of a lot but what exactly does it do? IMO (and probably 95% of people would say "hell no" to this), all auto attack modifiers of any sort should be removed from the game other than the AA specs for melee healers. Adding these was an absolutely terrible idea that has caused nothing but imbalances and a further reliance on automatic DPS.

iwillbackha

04-05-2011, 12:35 AM

Dirges are where they should be on parses, right below the actual dps classes. Troubs on the other hand are not, we are below the dps healers and only above the healing healers. It is sad. We need the class to be looked at in general, that includes the myth proc. All of these other people complained about how their class is subpar to others: summoners, illusionists and so on, have went on to get their classes boosted in dps.I should of named this thread, "Shadowknight myth buff, lol", maybe then i could of gotten a dev to actually look at the post.

04-05-2011, 12:50 AM

Yes, the troub's myth buff proc is not very useful, though its not just an issue with troubs. Many classes have myths with procs/other effects that really arent useful or have lost their use.Honestly, changing the troub myth probably isnt the best way to go to balance them out with dirges, nor is nerfing the dirge myth.Though, a update for myths with less than useful procs would be nice

Shotneedle

04-05-2011, 07:19 AM

Troubs aren't that [Removed for Content]. If their dps mod is low, they're doing it wrong. As a dirge if I turn off my dps buff I still have 98.5 solo. + a munzok ring proc, moses ring proc, inquisitor buff, or pure viciousness red adorn....you're pretty much capped. Add in some white adorns and you're 100% capped. I expect troubs to be 20-40k behind me. Which, coincidentally, is a little less than how much more dps my auto attack does.Troubs could use a buff, but they're not as [Removed for Content] as some people in this thread make them look. I would say changing their mythical to a max hit on spells proc would give this needed boost.

Leovinus

04-05-2011, 09:45 AM

<cite>Banditman wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Raahl wrote:</cite><blockquote>Inquisitors and other melee scouts/tanks also have some buffs for melee. Haste is one big example, self buffed I'm ~60-70%. In a raid group I'm >200. This is huge in making my attacks faster.Troubadors benefit from their own buffs, They cast spells don't they? Perhaps it would be better to buff the spell casting ablilities of the Troubador than buff the melee ones?</blockquote>I am well aware of what Inquisitors bring, but Dirges rarely find themselves in these groups. The point here is that the benefits a Dirge receives from other classes in his GROUP are minor in comparison to the benefits he receives from the buffs he himself provides for his own melee DPS.When you look now at a Dirge parse, what you see is that approximately 50% of his damage is melee auto attack. That is immense. His melee attacks hit significantly harder even when using weapons identical to a control parse.Sure, perhaps Troubs do need some additional benefit to their spell abilities which improves the performance of same. However, that is not where the greatest disparity currently resides. The problem is not in the abilities, it is in the auto attack.I do agree with what Atan said, messing with auto attack multipliers is bad juju. Unfortunately, that is EXACTLY what is happening already with the current Dirge buff.Troubs need to be fixed, for real. I don't want to see Dirges get whacked in the process. However, there is no where else to look for a valid comparison, and right now, the comparison is grossly slanted in the Dirges favor. The same sort of thing applies to Illusionists tbh. They (still) don't compare very favorably to Coercers, and it needs to be addressed.</blockquote>Not so rare. I don't think MT dirges are likely to ever get an inquisitor, but in the OT group? Pretty common. and depending on what tanks you use you can end up with some pretty serious discrepancies in dps potential even amongst dirges. Probably typically proc related though (on the healer front), though there are a ton of dps relevant buffs from healers and certain tanks), so the point about melee dps potential is still a valid one.

Raahl

04-05-2011, 09:49 AM

Banditman

04-05-2011, 09:56 AM

<cite>Buffratx@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>Troubs aren't that [Removed for Content]. If their dps mod is low, they're doing it wrong. As a dirge if I turn off my dps buff I still have 98.5 solo. + a munzok ring proc, moses ring proc, inquisitor buff, or pure viciousness red adorn....you're pretty much capped. Add in some white adorns and you're 100% capped. I expect troubs to be 20-40k behind me. Which, coincidentally, is a little less than how much more dps my auto attack does.Troubs could use a buff, but they're not as [Removed for Content] as some people in this thread make them look. I would say changing their mythical to a max hit on spells proc would give this needed boost.</blockquote>No, it won't. You cannot balance abilities against auto attack today. Auto attack is a completely uncapped stat now. Multi attack stacks to the moon. Every bit you get pushes that number higher, and with the Dirge buff affecting it, Dirges will continue to out scale Troubadors.Now, if you remove auto attack from the list of things the Dirge buff can affect, then yes, assuming that Troubs get an equivalent buff to their spell damage, you'll be a lot more close to balance. However, I am not sayin that this is what should happen, because frankly I am not really in favor of seeing Dirges get nerfed that way.With DPS mod capped, and EXACTLY THE SAME WEAPONS, Troubs are hitting for significantly less per swing than Dirges on auto attack. That's the problem that needs to be addressed.There are numerous ways to fix this, but SOE needs to PICK ONE AND GET IT DONE.

Wurm

04-05-2011, 10:06 AM

<cite>Lethe5683 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Wurm wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Buffratx@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>I'm not very happy with this thread because it will end up getting dirges nerfed instead of troubadors buffed.</blockquote>Yep, because like I said in another recent thread, if you want something for your class fixed, don't compare it to another classe's ability and whine.SOE has proven over and over and over again that they would rather nerf than fix. So all anyone ever does by complaining about something they have, in comparasion to something someone else has, is get the other person's ability nerfed.You'd think people would have figured that out by now, but aparently not.</blockquote>Better they nerf dirges then than do nothing at all, although I would greatly prefer that the troub myth buff just gets made more useful.</blockquote>You once again prove that you're a nerfherder... WTG!

Raahl

04-05-2011, 10:15 AM

<cite>Banditman wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Buffratx@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>Troubs aren't that [Removed for Content]. If their dps mod is low, they're doing it wrong. As a dirge if I turn off my dps buff I still have 98.5 solo. + a munzok ring proc, moses ring proc, inquisitor buff, or pure viciousness red adorn....you're pretty much capped. Add in some white adorns and you're 100% capped. I expect troubs to be 20-40k behind me. Which, coincidentally, is a little less than how much more dps my auto attack does.Troubs could use a buff, but they're not as [Removed for Content] as some people in this thread make them look. I would say changing their mythical to a max hit on spells proc would give this needed boost.</blockquote>No, it won't. You cannot balance abilities against auto attack today. Auto attack is a completely uncapped stat now. Multi attack stacks to the moon. Every bit you get pushes that number higher, and with the Dirge buff affecting it, Dirges will continue to out scale Troubadors.Now, if you remove auto attack from the list of things the Dirge buff can affect, then yes, assuming that Troubs get an equivalent buff to their spell damage, you'll be a lot more close to balance. However, I am not sayin that this is what should happen, because frankly I am not really in favor of seeing Dirges get nerfed that way.With DPS mod capped, and EXACTLY THE SAME WEAPONS, Troubs are hitting for significantly less per swing than Dirges on auto attack. That's the problem that needs to be addressed.There are numerous ways to fix this, but SOE needs to PICK ONE AND GET IT DONE.</blockquote>Sure seems like getting Dirges nerfed is what you are suggesting. If you truely don't want Dirges to get nerfed then don't post comments like this. Because it isn't balanced, it's just bringing another class down when they should be bringing the Troubador class up.I have no problems with giving the Troubadors some love. However a large percentage here are suggesting that Dirges get nerfed. This I totally disagree with.

Wurm

04-05-2011, 10:21 AM

My problem with this thread is both classes bring things to the table the other doesn't.Bard DPs is right about where it should be this expansion and the dirge doesn't need a nerf, the troub needs a buff.People saying that "Well if they nerf dirges so they both suck it would then be OK and fair!" is more of the old cut off my nose to spite my face crap we see here almost every day.Ask for a fix. Don't ask for someone else to get nerfed. Everytime a class gets nerfed we lose players. And you nerfherders wonder why EQ2 isn't such the shining star it once was.

Wasuna

04-05-2011, 10:33 AM

People have noticed a huge disparity between the two bard classes. They have found the two biggest reasons for that:1. Driges buff their own DPS better than Troubadors do.2. Dirge mythical buff is MUCH better than the Troubador mythical buff and with the changes to Mutli-Attack it's VERY obvious.As Banditman said:"There are numerous ways to fix this, but SOE needs to PICK ONE AND GET IT DONE."Those that think this means nerf and come here to cry over your dirge then I'm sorry. This is a balance issue, not a nerf or buff issue and we really don't have a say in what gets done.My personal opinion is that any class that brings so many buffs, debuffs and overall positive untility with them should be less than half the DPS of a T1 but that's just me. I'm sick of the parse being everything in this game. Bards should bard and get a pat on the back every time the wizard/warlock/assassin tops the parse.

Raahl

04-05-2011, 10:44 AM

<cite>Wasuna wrote:</cite><blockquote>People have noticed a huge disparity between the two bard classes. They have found the two biggest reasons for that:1. Driges buff their own DPS better than Troubadors do.2. Dirge mythical buff is MUCH better than the Troubador mythical buff and with the changes to Mutli-Attack it's VERY obvious.As Banditman said:"There are numerous ways to fix this, but SOE needs to PICK ONE AND GET IT DONE."Those that think this means nerf and come here to cry over your dirge then I'm sorry. This is a balance issue, not a nerf or buff issue and we really don't have a say in what gets done.My personal opinion is that any class that brings so many buffs, debuffs and overall positive untility with them should be less than half the DPS of a T1 but that's just me. I'm sick of the parse being everything in this game. Bards should bard and get a pat on the back every time the wizard/warlock/assassin tops the parse.</blockquote>There are numerous ways, true. However there is definately a right and a wrong way. Giving Troubadors some love = the right way. Any other way is wrong!Stop talking about nerfing Dirges, because that's what it would be! Start talking about what will fix Troubadors. I think you'd know beter than most what happens when people start asking for a class to be balanced down. Sony has shown time and time again that the Nerf bat is not a precision instrument. Guardian's know this better than any class out there.

Wasuna

04-05-2011, 10:59 AM

It's the same argument I used with fighetrs. Balance. I just happen to play the low end of the bard side now just like I do on the fighter side. You just happen to play the top side of the bard argument where as you supported the Guardian side in the fighter arguments. I'm not going to change my tune as it was the exact same one I had for years with fighters. Balance.That being said, my Guardian is my main. I just don't play my Troubador anymore unless there is a specific need for him. I'm just here offering my input and will get bored with this pretty soon and just keep NOT playing a class that SoE doesn't balance necasue I don't feel like it.SoE gets to descide where they think bards are suppose to fall and put them their. The current mythical buff is a HUGE disparity right now and needs to be addressed in some way.

minichimi

04-05-2011, 11:03 AM

They should make every class do the same dps, and have the same abilities, buffs, gear, aa, or people will whine about their class not performing as well as any other.

Raahl

04-05-2011, 11:20 AM

<cite>Wasuna wrote:</cite><blockquote>It's the same argument I used with fighetrs. Balance. I just happen to play the low end of the bard side now just like I do on the fighter side. You just happen to play the top side of the bard argument where as you supported the Guardian side in the fighter arguments. I'm not going to change my tune as it was the exact same one I had for years with fighters. Balance.That being said, my Guardian is my main. I just don't play my Troubador anymore unless there is a specific need for him. I'm just here offering my input and will get bored with this pretty soon and just keep NOT playing a class that SoE doesn't balance necasue I don't feel like it.SoE gets to descide where they think bards are suppose to fall and put them their. The current mythical buff is a HUGE disparity right now and needs to be addressed in some way.</blockquote>In the fight for Guardian balance, I hope I portrayed myself as a supporter of buffing up the class vs. nerfing them. If a person feels that the Troubador mythical buff is lacking, then they should suggest changes to make it more up to par. A few have done so, and I support their efforts. Being a middle of the road Dirge my DPS is nowhere near that of the example parse and nerfing the myth buff will totally wreck my DPS and make it less fun to play my character. This is the reason I changed my main from guardian. At the time my guardian was no-longer fun to play. He'd still be at level 84 if it wasn't for the bonus exp from level 90 characters.When you compare the top most players and make decisions on balance, you screw the average players.

Wasuna

04-05-2011, 11:27 AM

My Troubador is no longer fun to play....Think that pretty much sums it up and it fits nicely with your comments.

Raahl

04-05-2011, 11:29 AM

<cite>Wasuna wrote:</cite><blockquote>My Troubador is no longer fun to play....Think that pretty much sums it up and it fits nicely with your comments.</blockquote>Then lets get them fixed so they are fun to play. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" />[Edit] BTW - how is getting another class "nerfed" going to make your Troubador any more fun to play?

Banditman

04-05-2011, 12:28 PM

<cite>Raahl wrote:</cite><blockquote>Sure seems like getting Dirges nerfed is what you are suggesting. If you truely don't want Dirges to get nerfed then don't post comments like this. Because it isn't balanced, it's just bringing another class down when they should be bringing the Troubador class up.I have no problems with giving the Troubadors some love. However a large percentage here are suggesting that Dirges get nerfed. This I totally disagree with.</blockquote>I honestly don't care which happens. Personally, it would be in my best interests to see Troubadors get buffed as opposed to Dirges getting nerfed because I have a level capped Dirge. That doesn't mean I can't see the disparity and recognize that there is a problem.This isn't a change that can happen in a vacuum. You cannot look solely at the Dirge and say "They need a nerf", nor can you look solely at the Troubador and say "They need a buff". You have to look at the entire picture and decide where "Bards" need to sit overall and make the adjustment based on that analysis.The only sure thing at this point is that there is a significant DPS disparity between Dirges and Troubadors, and that disparity is tied directly to the Mythical buff given to Dirges. Aside from that, nothing is certain, because the Developers have not had anything to say on the matter, nor given us any indication as to what their overall thinking is, despite their promises to do just that.

Wurm

04-05-2011, 12:32 PM

<cite>Raahl wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Wasuna wrote:</cite><blockquote>My Troubador is no longer fun to play....Think that pretty much sums it up and it fits nicely with your comments.</blockquote>Then lets get them fixed so they are fun to play. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" />[Edit] BTW - how is getting another class "nerfed" going to make your Troubador any more fun to play?</blockquote>Raahl, Wasuna is one of those "nerf others so I feel better about myself" people. He proved that in all his nerf crusader rants.It has nothing to do with balance at all.

Wasuna

04-05-2011, 02:39 PM

No, I posted population numbers and asked for balance. If your an unhappy crusader then I'm sorry. Hope you enjoyed it while you had it, and from what I see, crusaders didn't really lose much, just didn't get any offensive itemization. From the little I have seen things look decently balanced but I haven't raided yet in the expansion.This is about bards. There is a clear disparity and even the dirges here know it. I have a solution already. I quit playing my Troubador. I'm just here to lend moral support for the Troubadors.

Wurm

04-05-2011, 02:55 PM

<cite>Wasuna wrote:</cite><blockquote>No, I posted population numbers and asked for balance. If your an unhappy crusader then I'm sorry. Hope you enjoyed it while you had it, and from what I see, crusaders didn't really lose much, just didn't get any offensive itemization. From the little I have seen things look decently balanced but I haven't raided yet in the expansion.This is about bards. There is a clear disparity and even the dirges here know it. I have a solution already. I quit playing my Troubador. I'm just here to lend moral support for the Troubadors.</blockquote>I'm not unhappy... I was one of the Crusaders preaching that Guards needed a buff. While you were in there preaching Crusaders needed a nerf.I just hate nerfherders. Nerfherders are the people slowly but surely sucking the fun out of this game.

Raahl

04-05-2011, 02:57 PM

<cite>Wasuna wrote:</cite><blockquote>No, I posted population numbers and asked for balance. If your an unhappy crusader then I'm sorry. Hope you enjoyed it while you had it, and from what I see, crusaders didn't really lose much, just didn't get any offensive itemization. From the little I have seen things look decently balanced but I haven't raided yet in the expansion.This is about bards. There is a clear disparity and even the dirges here know it. I have a solution already. I quit playing my Troubador. I'm just here to lend moral support for the Troubadors.</blockquote>How does "nerfing" the Dirges make your Troubador fun to play again?

Wurm

04-05-2011, 03:18 PM

<cite>Raahl wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Wasuna wrote:</cite><blockquote>No, I posted population numbers and asked for balance. If your an unhappy crusader then I'm sorry. Hope you enjoyed it while you had it, and from what I see, crusaders didn't really lose much, just didn't get any offensive itemization. From the little I have seen things look decently balanced but I haven't raided yet in the expansion.This is about bards. There is a clear disparity and even the dirges here know it. I have a solution already. I quit playing my Troubador. I'm just here to lend moral support for the Troubadors.</blockquote>How does "nerfing" the Dirges make your Troubador fun to play again?</blockquote>It doesn't and he doesn't care... there is always two ways to balance things... make both things equally strong or equally weak.Wasuna is only happy if its the latter.And the old "the dirges know" blah blah blah is BS. All the dirges know is that they are having fun playing. And most of them wish the same for the Troubies.

Wasuna

04-05-2011, 05:42 PM

You two are full of BS. I never said nerf crusaders and I never said nerf Dirges. I said the classes should be balanced and SoE has to figure that out.You are the ones that are crying nerf becasue you know that SoE will lean that way from past experiance. I hate nerfs as they kill enthuasiam for the game. That being said, balance is required.If you don't want to be nerfed then you figure out how to balance bards. Like I said, I figured out my solution to the problem.

Kunaak

04-05-2011, 06:59 PM

guess they just killed this topic....

iwillbackha

04-05-2011, 08:48 PM

Last post here in troub forums, march 25th. Awesome, nice place to put it.

Raahl

04-05-2011, 11:15 PM

<cite>Wasuna wrote:</cite><blockquote>You two are full of BS. I never said nerf crusaders and I never said nerf Dirges. I said the classes should be balanced and SoE has to figure that out.You are the ones that are crying nerf becasue you know that SoE will lean that way from past experiance. I hate nerfs as they kill enthuasiam for the game. That being said, balance is required.If you don't want to be nerfed then you figure out how to balance bards. Like I said, I figured out my solution to the problem.</blockquote>You never said nerf Dirges? What would you call what you posted below?<cite>Wasuna wrote:</cite><blockquote>What your saying in this comment is that the Troubador buff is wrong and the Dirge buff is OK. In general I agree but bards bring to much to the table to even be in the same playing field as T1 DPS. I don't like nerfs at all but Dirges do WAY to much DPS for all the buffs and benefits they bring to a group/raid.</blockquote>

Lethe5683

04-05-2011, 11:38 PM

<cite>Wurm wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Lethe5683 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Wurm wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Buffratx@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>I'm not very happy with this thread because it will end up getting dirges nerfed instead of troubadors buffed.</blockquote>Yep, because like I said in another recent thread, if you want something for your class fixed, don't compare it to another classe's ability and whine.SOE has proven over and over and over again that they would rather nerf than fix. So all anyone ever does by complaining about something they have, in comparasion to something someone else has, is get the other person's ability nerfed.You'd think people would have figured that out by now, but aparently not.</blockquote>Better they nerf dirges then than do nothing at all, although I would greatly prefer that the troub myth buff just gets made more useful.</blockquote>You once again prove that you're a nerfherder... WTG!</blockquote>You once again prove that you have no common sense... WTG!

Raahl

04-06-2011, 12:13 AM

Note: These are not my parses so I cannot answer any questions about group setup and other variables.Troubador: <img src="http://www.xanadu-community.com/sfh/4473/Parse_KreegarEM01.PNG" width="1010" height="613" />Dirge:<img src="http://i838.photobucket.com/albums/zz301/majoractor/KreegarKrikneck-EasyMode.jpg" width="1024" height="868" />Both had nearly the same to hit and crit percentages. But the Dirge had 2.38 times more swings than the dirge did. Was this because of the group setup or possibly the weapon delay?Taking the average melee attack damage of the Troubador and adding the extra hits that the dirge has they would have been an extra ~3,010,552 points of damage. This would give then a total damage for melee of ~5,169,953.Compare that to the Dirges 5,714,246? Very close. So if the Troubador had as many swings, they'd be virtually the same. Group haste buffs? Less Multi-attack? Looking at my Dirge my buffs provide 30% MA and 0 Haste. 15% of that is Blade Chime which more often is on the Assassin of the group.Compare the average melee hits. Dirge 17,421.48 to Troubador 15,762.05, Again pretty close. I don't see a earth shatterign disparity in the average melee hit.

iwillbackha

04-06-2011, 01:26 AM

Lets just sit here for a moment and lolz at these parses. Im pretty sure you guys can tell which one is the dirge and which one is the troub.<img src="http://img805.imageshack.us/img805/8215/capturewg.png" /><img src="http://img855.imageshack.us/img855/5397/capture1q.png" />

Wurm

04-06-2011, 04:09 AM

<cite>Lethe5683 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Wurm wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Lethe5683 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Wurm wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Buffratx@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>I'm not very happy with this thread because it will end up getting dirges nerfed instead of troubadors buffed.</blockquote>Yep, because like I said in another recent thread, if you want something for your class fixed, don't compare it to another classe's ability and whine.SOE has proven over and over and over again that they would rather nerf than fix. So all anyone ever does by complaining about something they have, in comparasion to something someone else has, is get the other person's ability nerfed.You'd think people would have figured that out by now, but aparently not.</blockquote>Better they nerf dirges then than do nothing at all, although I would greatly prefer that the troub myth buff just gets made more useful.</blockquote>You once again prove that you're a nerfherder... WTG!</blockquote>You once again prove that you have no common sense... WTG!</blockquote>Quite a bit more common sense than you tbh.

Raahl

04-06-2011, 10:07 AM

<cite>iwillbackhand wrote:</cite><blockquote>Lets just sit here for a moment and lolz at these parses. Im pretty sure you guys can tell which one is the dirge and which one is the troub.<img src="http://img805.imageshack.us/img805/8215/capturewg.png" /><img src="http://img855.imageshack.us/img855/5397/capture1q.png" /></blockquote>So if the Troubador hit the extra 650 time the Dirge did their additional damage would be 7,946,250. Bringing their total to 11,292,324. A little less than what the Dirge did. Raising their Ext DPS on their melee attack to 78967.30 DPS for their fight. Now if the fight was the same duration as the Dirges was, because of added DPS. Their DPS for the melee would be 94893.47 DPS. Very close to that of the Dirge.But here's the problem. The Median is not Average so, this may make the additional damage more or less. The Troubador has the same issue that was in my example. He swings a lot less. Again is this because of group buffs that increase Haste or MA?

Raahl

04-06-2011, 10:34 AM

BTW, both Dirges and Troubadors are nowhere near T1 DPS. Assassins/Wizards are parsing 230,000+ on that same mob.

Wasuna

04-06-2011, 11:09 AM

<cite>Raahl wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Wasuna wrote:</cite><blockquote>What your saying in this comment is that the Troubador buff is wrong and the Dirge buff is OK. In general I agree but bards bring to much to the table to even be in the same playing field as T1 DPS. I don't like nerfs at all but Dirges do WAY to much DPS for all the buffs and benefits they bring to a group/raid.</blockquote></blockquote>That was a defination of the problem and a bow to the fact that SoE would probably see the need for a nerf and not a buff.. that is assuming they do anything at all.If you don't want nerfed then you fix the problem. My solution is to not play my Troubador since he is an alt and not my main.My guess is that SoE will do absolutly nothing since they haven't looked at this population disparity for years already with no comment.

Wasuna

04-06-2011, 11:15 AM

<cite>Raahl wrote:</cite><blockquote>So if the Troubador hit the extra 650 time the Dirge did their additional damage would be 7,946,250. Bringing their total to 11,292,324. A little less than what the Dirge did. Raising their Ext DPS on their melee attack to 78967.30 DPS for their fight. Now if the fight was the same duration as the Dirges was, because of added DPS. Their DPS for the melee would be 94893.47 DPS. Very close to that of the Dirge.But here's the problem. The Median is not Average so, this may make the additional damage more or less. The Troubador has the same issue that was in my example. He swings a lot less. Again is this because of group buffs that increase Haste or MA? </blockquote>BS again. DPS is defined as Damage Per Second so that it can be compared directly to corresponding numbers for different fights of different length. If the Troubadors fight was the same length as the Dirges then their DPS numbers would be exactly the same.If your so worried about a nerf then quit trying to deflect the issue and solve the problem. If Troubadors get buffed I might play mine and see how it goes. If dirges get a nerf or nothing happens I will continue to not play my Troubador so I don't really care what the solution is.

Gaige

04-06-2011, 11:33 AM

<cite>Wurm wrote:</cite><blockquote>My problem with this thread is both classes bring things to the table the other doesn't.Bard DPs is right about where it should be this expansion and the dirge doesn't need a nerf, the troub needs a buff.</blockquote>One of our dirges is consistently top 5 now, because he has over 400MA in raids. He can't be wizards, assassins, swashes or locks very often but he usually blows away everyone else and frequently doubles up our troubs.

Raahl

04-06-2011, 11:34 AM

<cite>Wasuna wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Raahl wrote:</cite><blockquote>So if the Troubador hit the extra 650 time the Dirge did their additional damage would be 7,946,250. Bringing their total to 11,292,324. A little less than what the Dirge did. Raising their Ext DPS on their melee attack to 78967.30 DPS for their fight. Now if the fight was the same duration as the Dirges was, because of added DPS. Their DPS for the melee would be 94893.47 DPS. Very close to that of the Dirge.But here's the problem. The Median is not Average so, this may make the additional damage more or less. The Troubador has the same issue that was in my example. He swings a lot less. Again is this because of group buffs that increase Haste or MA? </blockquote>BS again. DPS is defined as Damage Per Second so that it can be compared directly to corresponding numbers for different fights of different length. If the Troubadors fight was the same length as the Dirges then their DPS numbers would be exactly the same.If your so worried about a nerf then quit trying to deflect the issue and solve the problem. If Troubadors get buffed I might play mine and see how it goes. If dirges get a nerf or nothing happens I will continue to not play my Troubador so I don't really care what the solution is.</blockquote>You are the one pilling on the BS here Wasuna. I'm attempting to identify what the true issue is as to why Troubadors are parsing less. Where you only seem to want to bring negative solutions.Do you dispute the issue seems to be the number of swings? If so, back it up with facts.I'm deflecting and not trying to solve the issue? That's a laugh. Like you said, you don't care. So why are you here? You never answered why nerfing Dirges would make your Troubador fun to play again. Guess you know it won't and that we'd have unhappy Troubadors and Dirges.

Raahl

04-06-2011, 11:37 AM

<cite>Gaige wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Wurm wrote:</cite><blockquote>My problem with this thread is both classes bring things to the table the other doesn't.Bard DPs is right about where it should be this expansion and the dirge doesn't need a nerf, the troub needs a buff.</blockquote>One of our dirges is consistently top 5 now, because he has over 400MA in raids. He can't be wizards, assassins, swashes or locks very often but he usually blows away everyone else and frequently doubles up our troubs.</blockquote>Thanks for the info Gaige. It would be interesting to find out the Haste and MA of both your Dirge and Troubador. Along with parses of both on the same mob.

Gaige

04-06-2011, 11:50 AM

<cite>Raahl wrote:</cite><blockquote>Thanks for the info Gaige. It would be interesting to find out the Haste and MA of both your Dirge and Troubador. Along with parses of both on the same mob. </blockquote>Buffrat's parses are easy to find. Our troubs might be a little harder though =x

Wurm

04-06-2011, 11:56 AM

<cite>Gaige wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Wurm wrote:</cite><blockquote>My problem with this thread is both classes bring things to the table the other doesn't.Bard DPs is right about where it should be this expansion and the dirge doesn't need a nerf, the troub needs a buff.</blockquote>One of our dirges is consistently top 5 now, because he has over 400MA in raids. He can't be wizards, assassins, swashes or locks very often but he usually blows away everyone else and frequently doubles up our troubs.</blockquote>How is Buffrat's gear compared to the troubs in your guild? Are they all about on the same level?

Raahl

04-06-2011, 12:01 PM

<cite>Gaige wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Raahl wrote:</cite><blockquote>Thanks for the info Gaige. It would be interesting to find out the Haste and MA of both your Dirge and Troubador. Along with parses of both on the same mob. </blockquote>Buffrat's parses are easy to find. Our troubs might be a little harder though =x</blockquote>I suspected it was Buffrat.<cite>Wurm wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Gaige wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Wurm wrote:</cite><blockquote>My problem with this thread is both classes bring things to the table the other doesn't.Bard DPs is right about where it should be this expansion and the dirge doesn't need a nerf, the troub needs a buff.</blockquote>One of our dirges is consistently top 5 now, because he has over 400MA in raids. He can't be wizards, assassins, swashes or locks very often but he usually blows away everyone else and frequently doubles up our troubs.</blockquote>How is Buffrat's gear compared to the troubs in your guild? Are they all about on the same level?</blockquote>I'd be more interested in seeing just what their stats are. This would give a more diffinitive comparison.

Gaige

04-06-2011, 12:05 PM

<cite>Wurm wrote:</cite><blockquote>How is Buffrat's gear compared to the troubs in your guild? Are they all about on the same level?</blockquote>We're all pretty close I think. Two HM pieces, most of the EM pieces, most of the EM jewelery, new DoV weapons/bows. For the most part.

Raahl

04-06-2011, 12:07 PM

If you could post or email me one of the parses for both that would be great Gaige.

Gaige

04-06-2011, 12:13 PM

We're doing everything tonight so if I remember I will sir.

Raahl

04-06-2011, 12:19 PM

<cite>Gaige wrote:</cite><blockquote>We're doing everything tonight so if I remember I will sir.</blockquote>Thanks. <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Have fun storming the castle.

Wasuna

04-06-2011, 01:15 PM

<cite>Raahl wrote:</cite><blockquote>You are the one pilling on the BS here Wasuna. I'm attempting to identify what the true issue is as to why Troubadors are parsing less. Where you only seem to want to bring negative solutions.Do you dispute the issue seems to be the number of swings? If so, back it up with facts.I'm deflecting and not trying to solve the issue? That's a laugh. Like you said, you don't care. So why are you here? You never answered why nerfing Dirges would make your Troubador fun to play again. Guess you know it won't and that we'd have unhappy Troubadors and Dirges.</blockquote>Yes, your comments are BS. Gaige came here and refenced DPS and you thanked him and yet you didn't like the numbers provided above which show EXACTLLY what Gaige said they see in their raid. Gaige said he'd provide the numebrs from their next raid to demonstrate the DPS disparity and again you thanked him?Yes, I 100% dispute that the disparity is the number of swings. DPS is DPS. The dirge could be using 4 second weapons and the Troubador could be using 6 second weapons. I don't know and that is why the term.... DPS .... is used. The only thing I would agree with is if you had an expanded parse of both of the classe and removed 3rd party procing dps from the mix. After that your own abilities and gear is all that matters and that is.. once again.. DPS.I do agree that the parses of the dirge and troubador in the same fight at the same time will be very telling and I look forward to Gaiges post. I don't expect it to be any different than what has already been shown but it will provide a bigger and more accurate information base.Finally, I'm here becasue I can't stand hypocrisy and probably more so becasue I can't stand to pass up a good fight.

Raahl

04-06-2011, 03:05 PM

<cite>Wasuna wrote:</cite><blockquote>Yes, your comments are BS. Gaige came here and refenced DPS and you thanked him and yet you didn't like the numbers provided above which show EXACTLLY what Gaige said they see in their raid. Gaige said he'd provide the numebrs from their next raid to demonstrate the DPS disparity and again you thanked him?</blockquote>Gaige pointed out that there is a DPS disparity. I have not argued that there isn't a disparity, just that you are barking up the wrong tree when you try and blame it on the mythical buff. Sure changing the Troubadors myth buff could go a long way to solving some of the disparity.<cite>Wasuna wrote:</cite><blockquote>Yes, I 100% dispute that the disparity is the number of swings. DPS is DPS. The dirge could be using 4 second weapons and the Troubador could be using 6 second weapons. I don't know and that is why the term.... DPS .... is used. The only thing I would agree with is if you had an expanded parse of both of the classe and removed 3rd party procing dps from the mix. After that your own abilities and gear is all that matters and that is.. once again.. DPS.</blockquote>Show me different in the supplied parses where the disparity lies. The parses show a serious disparity in the number of swings between the two bard classes. Finding a way to bring the troubadors swing count up would bring them 90% of the way towards removing the disparity and bringing DPS up to that of the Dirges.<cite>Wasuna wrote:</cite><blockquote>I do agree that the parses of the dirge and troubador in the same fight at the same time will be very telling and I look forward to Gaiges post. I don't expect it to be any different than what has already been shown but it will provide a bigger and more accurate information base.</blockquote>Finally we can agree, I too believe these parses would be very telling. I too don't expect to see anything different. The Dirge will parse more because they swing more.

Wurm

04-06-2011, 03:20 PM

Yeah because nerfing things because of what happens in raiding makes most of your customers happy... Fix the Troubs and leave the Dirges the hell alone.

iwillbackha

04-06-2011, 03:53 PM

<cite>Raahl wrote:</cite><blockquote>Note: These are not my parses so I cannot answer any questions about group setup and other variables.Troubador: <img src="http://www.xanadu-community.com/sfh/4473/Parse_KreegarEM01.PNG" width="1010" height="613" />Dirge:<img src="http://i838.photobucket.com/albums/zz301/majoractor/KreegarKrikneck-EasyMode.jpg" width="1024" height="868" />Both had nearly the same to hit and crit percentages. But the Dirge had 2.38 times more swings than the dirge did. Was this because of the group setup or possibly the weapon delay?Taking the average melee attack damage of the Troubador and adding the extra hits that the dirge has they would have been an extra ~3,010,552 points of damage. This would give then a total damage for melee of ~5,169,953.Compare that to the Dirges 5,714,246? Very close. So if the Troubador had as many swings, they'd be virtually the same. Group haste buffs? Less Multi-attack? Looking at my Dirge my buffs provide 30% MA and 0 Haste. 15% of that is Blade Chime which more often is on the Assassin of the group.Compare the average melee hits. Dirge 17,421.48 to Troubador 15,762.05, Again pretty close. I don't see a earth shatterign disparity in the average melee hit. </blockquote>You guys see how much dps Ayonic Hymm put out on that fight? 517 dps.

Raahl

04-06-2011, 05:00 PM

<cite>iwillbackhand wrote:</cite><blockquote>You guys see how much dps Ayonic Hymm put out on that fight? 517 dps.</blockquote>That is pretty weak. Do you think changing the 15% Crit Chance to 15% Crit Bonus would help any? In that parse the Troubador was Crit'ing pretty much 100% of the time.Though I have no problem making it similar to the Dirge one. Maybe Maximum spell damage for the duration?

Wasuna

04-06-2011, 05:15 PM

<cite>Raahl wrote:</cite><blockquote>Show me different in the supplied parses where the disparity lies. The parses show a serious disparity in the number of swings between the two bard classes. Finding a way to bring the troubadors swing count up would bring them 90% of the way towards removing the disparity and bringing DPS up to that of the Dirges.</blockquote>The swing disparty is very close to what you would expect from a 4 second and 6 second weapon disparity. If you can see that then look at the max, min and average hit and you will see the exact impact of the dirge mythical buff as compared to the troubador one. The dirge average hit is 10% harder than the Troubador even though the Troubador is using slower, harder hitting weapons.Also, the parses you pulled up form somewhere show a Troubador that is using a huge god ability to increase their VC and that has more group provided procs than the dirge parse shows so the actual individual DPS is even further skewed than you show. Those parses are from some unknown place and it doesn't even look like a reasonable comparision. The Troubadors raid killed that named 20% faster so I assume they had a significant gear advanatge while doing less DPS.In the end I could care less where DPS is coming from. The two bards should be similar. I actually think the Troubador provides a bigger dps increase for their mage group than a dirge does for a melee group (but that is my opinion) so I wouldn't have an issue with a slight disparity but the reported 1.5-2 times is not acceptable. Once people get their reuse back up again the effective gap will widen again since UT and J-Cap will be less effective.

Raahl

04-06-2011, 05:28 PM

<cite>Wasuna wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Raahl wrote:</cite><blockquote>Show me different in the supplied parses where the disparity lies. The parses show a serious disparity in the number of swings between the two bard classes. Finding a way to bring the troubadors swing count up would bring them 90% of the way towards removing the disparity and bringing DPS up to that of the Dirges.</blockquote>The swing disparty is very close to what you would expect from a 4 second and 6 second weapon disparity. If you can see that then look at the max, min and average hit and you will see the exact impact of the dirge mythical buff as compared to the troubador one. The dirge average hit is 10% harder than the Troubador even though the Troubador is using slower, harder hitting weapons.Also, the parses you pulled up form somewhere show a Troubador that is using a huge god ability to increase their VC and that has more group provided procs than the dirge parse shows so the actual individual DPS is even further skewed than you show. Those parses are from some unknown place and it doesn't even look like a reasonable comparision. The Troubadors raid killed that named 20% faster so I assume they had a significant gear advanatge while doing less DPS.In the end I could care less where DPS is coming from. The two bards should be similar. I actually think the Troubador provides a bigger dps increase for their mage group than a dirge does for a melee group (but that is my opinion) so I wouldn't have an issue with a slight disparity but the reported 1.5-2 times is not acceptable. Once people get their reuse back up again the effective gap will widen again since UT and J-Cap will be less effective.</blockquote>Both have a pretty high DPS value for VC.At one point in time the Dirge in that parse was dual wielding 6s delay weapons. I think he may have gone back to 4s though.As far as which provides more to their group, it's tough to say because a lot of the buffs are for stats like MA/CC/ETC. Not as easily measured.

Celuin

04-06-2011, 08:38 PM

This is all pretty terrible and heavily biased information.IIRC, Buffrat and his group buff many things around his own personal dps. Many of his parses he'll buff himself with BC, rather than grant it to a DPS Scout. I can count, pretty much never that a Troub has that luxury in a guild that I've been in, on a raid. So to see that he does great dps, for a bard, really isn't a surprise at all. Trying to balance an entire class around one guilds' bard that specs for pure dps, and generally gets buffed for pure dps is probably highly unwise. Buffrat is a really good dps'er in his own right, and quite honestly, putting him on a Troub he would probably do pretty good numbers there as well.Do the Troubs sit in Buffrat's group? Or are they in a Mage group? I'm not suggesting that troubs do as much dps as Dirges, though...I suspect its not as far off as you people make it seem. While I'm sure that Dirges do more dps than Troubs this xpac, anyway you slice it, you should probably know that during TSO and all the way through most of Sent Fate (I quit in November), I outdid all of our Dirges in my guilds' dps on a fairly regular basis. In fact, I'm quite certain I did more dps than any bard on AB during that time as well, as a Troub. I would say that in 95% of raid situations, Dirges do about the same amount of RW dps on a percentage basis as they always did.So for the 600th time, I think what needs to happen is that the Troub myth needs to be revisited. Regarding making the Troubador more fun to play, I don't think its just the dps as the issue. I believe the root, CORE issue is the dps *and* the lack of active abilities that they have. Its just a very dry class to play. It also doesn't help that most all Scout items are geared for Melee dps'ers and difficult to find things that actually really benefit a Troub.

Raahl

04-06-2011, 08:54 PM

<cite>Celuin wrote:</cite><blockquote>This is all pretty terrible and heavily biased information.IIRC, Buffrat and his group buff many things around his own personal dps. Many of his parses he'll buff himself with BC, rather than grant it to a DPS Scout. I can count, pretty much never that a Troub has that luxury in a guild that I've been in, on a raid. So to see that he does great dps, for a bard, really isn't a surprise at all. Trying to balance an entire class around one guilds' bard that specs for pure dps, and generally gets buffed for pure dps is probably highly unwise. Buffrat is a really good dps'er in his own right, and quite honestly, putting him on a Troub he would probably do pretty good numbers there as well.Do the Troubs sit in Buffrat's group? Or are they in a Mage group? I'm not suggesting that troubs do as much dps as Dirges, though...I suspect its not as far off as you people make it seem. While I'm sure that Dirges do more dps than Troubs this xpac, anyway you slice it, you should probably know that during TSO and all the way through most of Sent Fate (I quit in November), I outdid all of our Dirges in my guilds' dps on a fairly regular basis. In fact, I'm quite certain I did more dps than any bard on AB during that time as well, as a Troub. I would say that in 95% of raid situations, Dirges do about the same amount of RW dps on a percentage basis as they always did.So for the 600th time, I think what needs to happen is that the Troub myth needs to be revisited. Regarding making the Troubador more fun to play, I don't think its just the dps as the issue. I believe the root, CORE issue is the dps *and* the lack of active abilities that they have. Its just a very dry class to play. It also doesn't help that most all Scout items are geared for Melee dps'ers and difficult to find things that actually really benefit a Troub.</blockquote>Agreed Troubadors need some love. <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />I understand that Buffrat is jigged out all to heck and back. I'm hoping that the Troubador is similarly jigged out. This is part of the reason why I'd like to see their stats too.

Celuin

04-06-2011, 08:57 PM

Heh, I forgot to mention....Ability mod certainly benefits troubs far more than dirges, due to the reliance for a dirge on auto attack versus spells and CAs as a troubador. I don't know that most troubadors have really gotten to have 2500 Ability mod yet, which does nothing aside from damage their dps.

Wasuna

04-08-2011, 10:29 AM

Not sure if Gaige forgot to post the parses or not but I don't see any.I'll go ahead and assume a conspiracy theory that certin people did not one said parses provided or shown. SoE has a long track record of not noticing things until players prove it to them and then dropping the hammer. Nobody wants a hammer dropped but many would like some actuvity to balance things.

Raahl

04-08-2011, 11:33 AM

<cite>Wasuna wrote:</cite><blockquote>Not sure if Gaige forgot to post the parses or not but I don't see any.I'll go ahead and assume a conspiracy theory that certin people did not one said parses provided or shown. SoE has a long track record of not noticing things until players prove it to them and then dropping the hammer. Nobody wants a hammer dropped but many would like some actuvity to balance things.</blockquote>Assume all you want. I suspect Gaige was busy having fun to even consider posting.Personally I believe this issue lies with the Troubador's DPS being dependant on Melee damage too much. And because they typically get put into a caster group, never get the nicer melee group buffs.What's the solution to this? I guess they could either increase their spell based damage to make up for the melee deficit or change their myth buff to bring up their melee DPS more. What do the active Troubadors want? Do you want to be more spell based DPS or Melee?

iwillbackha

04-09-2011, 12:01 AM

This thread died as soon as it was put in this forum. Let's talk about something else like tradeskilling or having multiple houses. Maybe it will get moved to a more active area.

Wasuna

04-11-2011, 11:13 AM

<cite>Raahl wrote:</cite><blockquote>Assume all you want. I suspect Gaige was busy having fun to even consider posting.Personally I believe this issue lies with the Troubador's DPS being dependant on Melee damage too much. And because they typically get put into a caster group, never get the nicer melee group buffs.What's the solution to this? I guess they could either increase their spell based damage to make up for the melee deficit or change their myth buff to bring up their melee DPS more. What do the active Troubadors want? Do you want to be more spell based DPS or Melee?</blockquote>That's the beauty of all the people being 'in the know' all the sudden not talking anymore. I can assume away and nobody that knows for sure will say a thing. If they do, then there is the potentional for one fo the top 5 parses in their raid to be adjusted in some way.As for an earlier comment about Gaiges dirge friend being buffed for DPS, only the people capable of generating that DPS get buffed for it. Gaiges raid force is not stupid and they notice potentional and jumped on it.

Kunaak

04-14-2011, 04:42 PM

The Troub Myth Buff Needs to be changed - to remain competitive.simple suggestions.instead of procing 15 crit - proc 15 spell DA.we are mainly casters, with about 1/3rd our stuff being melee based, aside from auto attacks.one way to differentiate the troub from dirge, without having to nerf dirges - make troubs more AE damage based.dirges are already pretty ridiculously OP with thier mythical buff, being so unchecked... so why not let them be better at single target damage, and troubs better at AE damage?troubs need help for sure - but I'd rather see troubs differentiated from dirges, instead of just trying to match them.as different as a brig is from a swash, or guardian from berserker.

Notes

04-14-2011, 05:21 PM

<cite>Kunaak wrote:</cite><blockquote>The Troub Myth Buff Needs to be changed - to remain competitive.simple suggestions.instead of procing 15 crit - proc 15 spell DA.we are mainly casters, with about 1/3rd our stuff being melee based, aside from auto attacks.one way to differentiate the troub from dirge, without having to nerf dirges - make troubs more AE damage based.dirges are already pretty ridiculously OP with thier mythical buff, being so unchecked... so why not let them be better at single target damage, and troubs better at AE damage?troubs need help for sure - but I'd rather see troubs differentiated from dirges, instead of just trying to match them.as different as a brig is from a swash, or guardian from berserker.</blockquote>Didnt you notice this died out three days ago, plus giving multiple housing to characters and that kind of fluff is much more important than fixing troubs.Noets

Raahl

04-15-2011, 11:26 AM

<cite>Kunaak wrote:</cite><blockquote>dirges are already pretty ridiculously OP with thier mythical buff, being so unchecked... so why not let them be better at single target damage, and troubs better at AE damage?</blockquote>Wrong. The Dirge Myth buff is just better than the Troubadors, it's not OP.But that aside, wouldn't max spell damage for the duration be better than a 15 spell DA? Or is Spell DA the way to go for casters?

Raahl

04-15-2011, 11:28 AM

<cite>Notes wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Kunaak wrote:</cite><blockquote>The Troub Myth Buff Needs to be changed - to remain competitive.simple suggestions.instead of procing 15 crit - proc 15 spell DA.we are mainly casters, with about 1/3rd our stuff being melee based, aside from auto attacks.one way to differentiate the troub from dirge, without having to nerf dirges - make troubs more AE damage based.dirges are already pretty ridiculously OP with thier mythical buff, being so unchecked... so why not let them be better at single target damage, and troubs better at AE damage?troubs need help for sure - but I'd rather see troubs differentiated from dirges, instead of just trying to match them.as different as a brig is from a swash, or guardian from berserker.</blockquote>Didnt you notice this died out three days ago, plus giving multiple housing to characters and that kind of fluff is much more important than fixing troubs.Noets</blockquote>It only dies out if you let it.But I agree, Sony has a horrible habit of adding crap to the game instead of fixing issues that already exist first.

Kunaak

04-17-2011, 03:59 PM

<cite>Raahl wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Kunaak wrote:</cite><blockquote>dirges are already pretty ridiculously OP with thier mythical buff, being so unchecked... so why not let them be better at single target damage, and troubs better at AE damage?</blockquote>Wrong. The Dirge Myth buff is just better than the Troubadors, it's not OP.But that aside, wouldn't max spell damage for the duration be better than a 15 spell DA? Or is Spell DA the way to go for casters?</blockquote>what else would one expect from a dirge?well, besides buffrat, who chooses to tell the truth, even at the cost of possibly nerfing his own toon....I know you havent botherd to really look into your own mythical buff, otherwise, you wouldnt be in such denial about it.dirges can currently get between 60-70% of thier DPS from auto attacks alone - thats cause of the buff. when your parsing 120k +, and auto attacks = 90k of your damage - somethings not right.not even the highest parsing assassin can claim that kinda DPS for so little effort.the fact is, the dirge mythical is so OP right now, that honestly, I cant recall a single item ever - that quite literally can almost double your parse, from a single proc.the only reason you choose to say its not OP, is in the hopes no one notices, and no one says anything about it....

Raahl

04-18-2011, 10:58 AM

<cite>Kunaak wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Raahl wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Kunaak wrote:</cite><blockquote>dirges are already pretty ridiculously OP with thier mythical buff, being so unchecked... so why not let them be better at single target damage, and troubs better at AE damage?</blockquote>Wrong. The Dirge Myth buff is just better than the Troubadors, it's not OP.But that aside, wouldn't max spell damage for the duration be better than a 15 spell DA? Or is Spell DA the way to go for casters?</blockquote>what else would one expect from a dirge?well, besides buffrat, who chooses to tell the truth, even at the cost of possibly nerfing his own toon....I know you havent botherd to really look into your own mythical buff, otherwise, you wouldnt be in such denial about it.dirges can currently get between 60-70% of thier DPS from auto attacks alone - thats cause of the buff. when your parsing 120k +, and auto attacks = 90k of your damage - somethings not right.not even the highest parsing assassin can claim that kinda DPS for so little effort.the fact is, the dirge mythical is so OP right now, that honestly, I cant recall a single item ever - that quite literally can almost double your parse, from a single proc.the only reason you choose to say its not OP, is in the hopes no one notices, and no one says anything about it....</blockquote>Yet another nerf x class with no suggestions to fixing your own class. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/2786c5c8e1a8be796fb2f726cca5a0fe.gif" border="0" /> How does nerfing another class fix your class?Currently around 50-60% AA as my DPS and my best is 31k, and that's on heroic instance mobs, cut it down to ~22k for epic. And guess what? I have the Dirge Mythical buff. So yea it's really overpowered.Perhaps basing the Dirge DPS so heavily on AutoAttack is a bad design on Sony's part. But that's the way it is. If they decide to greatly increase our CA damage, I could accept a reduction in AutoAttack damage.I support any solution that fixes the issues with the Troubador Mythical buff.

Kunaak

04-18-2011, 01:54 PM

lets be honest here.it really doesnt matter what we say, or suggest here.they moved this post here to kill this post.theres not a single dev any where, willing to look into this, I would bet.no matter how bad the issue is - this post was moved here, to kill it, as far as I can tell.

tfetterman

04-18-2011, 02:09 PM

<cite>Raahl wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Kunaak wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Raahl wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Kunaak wrote:</cite><blockquote>dirges are already pretty ridiculously OP with thier mythical buff, being so unchecked... so why not let them be better at single target damage, and troubs better at AE damage?</blockquote>Wrong. The Dirge Myth buff is just better than the Troubadors, it's not OP.But that aside, wouldn't max spell damage for the duration be better than a 15 spell DA? Or is Spell DA the way to go for casters?</blockquote>what else would one expect from a dirge?well, besides buffrat, who chooses to tell the truth, even at the cost of possibly nerfing his own toon....I know you havent botherd to really look into your own mythical buff, otherwise, you wouldnt be in such denial about it.dirges can currently get between 60-70% of thier DPS from auto attacks alone - thats cause of the buff. when your parsing 120k +, and auto attacks = 90k of your damage - somethings not right.not even the highest parsing assassin can claim that kinda DPS for so little effort.the fact is, the dirge mythical is so OP right now, that honestly, I cant recall a single item ever - that quite literally can almost double your parse, from a single proc.the only reason you choose to say its not OP, is in the hopes no one notices, and no one says anything about it....</blockquote>Yet another nerf x class with no suggestions to fixing your own class. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/2786c5c8e1a8be796fb2f726cca5a0fe.gif" border="0" /> How does nerfing another class fix your class?Currently around 50-60% AA as my DPS and my best is 31k, and that's on heroic instance mobs, cut it down to ~22k for epic. And guess what? I have the Dirge Mythical buff. So yea it's really overpowered.Perhaps basing the Dirge DPS so heavily on AutoAttack is a bad design on Sony's part. But that's the way it is. If they decide to greatly increase our CA damage, I could accept a reduction in AutoAttack damage.I support any solution that fixes the issues with the Troubador Mythical buff.</blockquote>This is the way it works in politics too. Instead of trying to find a way to better yourself, you bring someone else down to your level. That's the nature of lazy humans.Personally, I would like to see max spell damage with a moderate modifier (~20%) and uncap all casting speeds on all spells like Perfect Shrill (currently capped at .5 seconds) used as a solution. Max melee damage with uncapped MA allowed the Dirge dps extreme escalation. The reason why I asked for a modifier is that troubs are still scouts, and if played correctly you can still get considerable damage from auto attack. Auto attack should still be your main focus with uncapped MA, but you don't get anything special added to it. Potency is uncapped but it is very difficult to get it the numbers that you can get MA. This modifier would bring everything back in line.

Silzin

04-18-2011, 04:41 PM

Just an Off the wall idea from a Non-bard player.... Since i know that trouby's have 0 blue AoE's and at least 1 person is talking about wanting more AoE bast. how about something that changes all of your Green AoE's into unlimited target Blue AoE's. Last item i checked music isnt limited just 1 group of mobs it effects every one around your... Right? Just an idea.

iwillbackha

04-28-2011, 04:17 PM

Turning our green spells to blue spells would do almost nothing to our dps and would turn our joke of a myth buff into more of a joke when the dirge's catch wind of it and laugh.Other major problem for troubs:The dreaded "dps" scout in your mage group. Yes, when the raid leaders decide to stick a scout in the troubs mage group so that the scout gets ia and ai and whatever else buffs that you would of gotten instead. And all the troub ends up getting for the night's raid is a ro's flame or venemous runes , maybe a ember seed or whatever the spells are called. Then when you go look at the parse and see that your are at the bottom between the healers makes you not want to come back the next night and raid again.A solution to this, give the troub some self buffs that dont stack with other buffs like ia.Change rejuvenating celebration: seriously health regen.Change sandra deafening strike: come on we are still stealing power?Change requiem of reflection: i love the idea to absorb an aoe, but there are mainly physical aoe's in epic dov content, maybe make it trigger off of any aoe to absorb any aoe including physcial aoe's, just not off of physcial melee attacks like dirge stoneskin.I dont have anything to mezz or charm in raid content (and don't want to) or to tell the truth in any content, thats not the troubs roll.Hopefully you developer's will suprise me and have did some rebalancing to the troub class/ myth buff in GU 60.

Gimmiethat

04-30-2011, 10:21 AM

Gotta say, having a maxx lvl of both bards... there is a HUGE gap between dirge and troub post DOV. The myth buff is just one part, but its also the stat consolidation, expansion gear inflation and DoV aa tree, and DOV favoring melee dps generally.The best troub buffs dont mean as much when all the casters and most everyone else can max thier own casting and reuse speeds. And what was useless before DoV remeains just as useless.Troubs definitely need some lovin'.

Kunaak

05-23-2011, 03:48 PM

troubs are about 75% caster, and 25% melee.that puts us in a really bad spot in DoV, since no gear has Spell DA, we cant maximize on either MA or SDA.we're low DPS casters, and ok at melee - that combo, means almost all actual scout gear, does almost nothing for us.the farther this expansion goes, the more I watch my troub counterparts quit, stop raiding, or sadly - betray. this expansion seems to be designed to kill off troubs - and the worst part is, while theres pretty much universal support accross the board from troubs, and even some well known dirges that troubs, are indeed in very bad shape...we cant even get a reply to know, atleast someones looking into this.

Prestissimo

05-30-2011, 05:44 PM

<cite>Kunaak wrote:</cite><blockquote>we cant even get a reply to know, atleast someones looking into this.</blockquote>No devs actually play a troub and probably never have. For this reason and this reason alone they just simply do not understand the class and most likely just do not care at all since there are so few left. If the troubs stopped existing today, I'm fairly possitive no one in the world would know except for the QQ that would spawn from squishies not getting PotM, UT, Harmonization, and the people that still can make use of JCap.

iwillbackha

07-07-2011, 04:57 PM

I am bringing this thread back to life, cause its important. It still needs to be looked at and addressed, i still care even though i am enjoying playing a dirge now.Dirge myth proc ftw!

Ned888

07-07-2011, 05:24 PM

I just started playing and I picked a Troubadour. I'm only 10th level right now, but I'm going to stick with the guy. Hopefully there will be an update soon that will even things out a bit.

Prestissimo

07-10-2011, 06:51 AM

My troub doesn't log in unless there is plat or another form of garunteed return/rolling for my mains. I could be doing something productive with my time like playing a class that is actually fun to play, and tbh if others want the buffs, they can compensate me for it. Every minute playing my troub is another minute I'm not playing the toons I want to play. With how diminished troub buffs are anymore, playing my troub is more like a tedious job than anything else. Spam moar buttonz and do next to nothing really productive!Until my troub means more than just a few maintained buffs, jcaps, potm, an extra VC, and UT, it's going to stay logged out. Apparently I'm not the only one that feels that way, as I've seen less than 2 dozen troubs actively running on my server. When everyone and their dog has a dirge, and theres a small handful of troubs, there is seriously a very clear and obvious problem. Just like there has been for quite a while.

Brienae

07-12-2011, 04:01 PM

Maybe another idea is giving us a proc similar to the dirge except max damage of our spells instead of our combat arts? Right now I am dedicated mage troub. My mages seem to adore me. I have fun but, sometimes I wish I wasn't so invisible. I've been told my dps is decent for a trouby, but sometimes I really wonder if I did go afk in the middle of a fight who would know? I think that is the problem we have.

Netty

07-12-2011, 10:11 PM

troubs are no where near dirges in dps. In fact i would say the only once parsing lower or should anyway atm is some healers. with dps going uncaped soon i bet the diff will be even worse. Sure its easy to get but not in the mage group really!

Raahl

07-14-2011, 10:42 AM

tfetterman

09-18-2011, 05:42 AM

It's time to get this going around a little bit again. The myth effect is the only thing left to change after all of the other troub changes. Crit chance is pretty worthless with all the crit going around these days.

ScouseReds

04-29-2012, 06:17 AM

<cite>Netty wrote:</cite><blockquote>troubs are no where near dirges in dps. In fact i would say the only once parsing lower or should anyway atm is some healers. with dps going uncaped soon i bet the diff will be even worse. Sure its easy to get but not in the mage group really!</blockquote>We are as good on the parse as dirges on encounter fights due to grp's which we get put in, Single target DPS and equal gear / skill lvl dirge should wipe the floor with us. This is due to the amount of dps mod and flurryThe problem here is a out dated myth 15 cc ~ from a proc when mobs require 400 + and a proc that does min dmg.I would like to see it brought up to scratch with Dirge flurry pot proc, This would be awsome but that lowers variety, accurracy / damage to next spell / chance to reset last ability used / or even SDA chance ...thats just some idea's i think would help the Troub's of this wo