Changes needed for balance... [Archive] - EQ2 Forum Archive @ EQ2Wire

Bruener

03-17-2011, 11:43 PM

Alright, now that we have a pretty good handle on how things are feeling in DoV there seem to be some issues surfacing that should be addressed for balance against other fighters.1. Base Melee Crit Multiplier. With the introduction of MA, especially in combo with DW, it is becoming pretty obvious that the lack of melee crit multiplier that Crusaders get is outdated. This needs to be increased from 1.3 to 1.5 for Melee.2. Itemization. I am at a loss with this since yeah it would be nice to have all the MA we seem to be missing on Fighter loot. But on the other hand MA is not that strong of a stat for Crusaders since we 1h most of the time and MA with a 1h is significantly less effective compared to MA with DW. Yes we should have MA, but I really think there needs to be itemized Crusader weapons which make up for the fact they are just 1h'ing all the time. Knights Stance is just not even coming close to cutting it anymore...especially compared to Fighters that can DW while tanking and still get maximum avoidance.3. 2h weapons need to be equal to 2-1h. Looking at weapons that means with my 1h wep that does a 700 top end, the 2h that has a top end up 1030 needs about 370 more top end to be on par. But it goes beyond that. With adornments being so important this xpac 2h weps need double the adornment slots that 1h weps do. Or, give 2h weps some unique type of procs to make up for losing a white and red adornment slot.4. Strike-thru. If Brawlers are going to retain strike-thru immunity than other fighters need the same benefit in defensive stance. There is no longer any mit advantage or damage reduction advantage that Plate tanks have over leather tanks. So giving Plates immune to strike thru on defensive stance would actually even out the tank field and make defensive stance a must use tank stance. Not to mention the huge annoyance of using an ability that is supposed to be a short term survive ability, only to be struck thru it and die right away.5. DPS. Fixing some of the above will help in this department. SKs are offensive tanks. And yet raiding in DoV we are falling further and further behind in DPS. Healers have no problem spiking over us in DPS now. Not only does this have a huge effect on our raid contribution when not tanking, but it also effects our hate more than any other tank. SKs have always been a class that is supposed to rely on DPS more than other fighters for hate, and hence were given a lot less hate tools. SKs have no hate siphon. SKs do not have huge amounts of reactive hate. SKs do not have positional climbing abilities on fast recast. SKs have the least amount of taunts. This is a serious impact.DoV basically tore up SF where Fighter balance was extremely good and Fighters in general were doing well in what they were able to contribute to groups/raids. We need to work at getting back there.

Kimber

03-18-2011, 01:36 AM

Wow is all I can say while I can agree with the MA part with the 2 handed v's the DW and what not. The Stike threw thing is all tanks as you stated. The part that I am saying wow about is the DPS part. You are a tank not a DPS class Zerk is the tank class that relied on DPS to hold hate SK has allot better tools for hate than a Zerk both crusaders do tbh. Other than that looks good to me.

Bruener

03-18-2011, 10:06 AM

<cite>Kimber@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>Wow is all I can say while I can agree with the MA part with the 2 handed v's the DW and what not. The Stike threw thing is all tanks as you stated. The part that I am saying wow about is the DPS part. You are a tank not a DPS class Zerk is the tank class that relied on DPS to hold hate SK has allot better tools for hate than a Zerk both crusaders do tbh. Other than that looks good to me.</blockquote>Wow, think what you like. This is not about Zerkers, which you are completely wrong about. I know what I am, an Offensive tank that relies on self-agro generation more than any other tank class. That self-agro generation for us comes in DPS. We only have a couple taunts. We do not have huge amounts of reactive hate. We don't have a hate siphon like some of the other tanks. And we definitely do not have many snap climbing abilities like other tanks.What exactly do you call "better" tools? What used to be the DPS advantage is gone.This is not a thread about Beserkers. It is a thread about real observations on how things are trending. I am sure Beserkers have their own issues that they can post about as well. This is about making this a better game for all Fighters...something that SF really strived for.EDIT: Oh, and to lay it right out right now, nobody is asking to be top DPS. However, healers able to DPS just as much and utility classes easily beating an offensive fighter going all out DPS, NOT TANKING, is wrong.

Nakash

03-18-2011, 12:21 PM

Zerks and Sks where the DPS based tanks by concept from day one. Not only Zerk <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" /> thats was whishfull thinking of some people.Things for SK where broken many times and it seems is nearly back to where they where in RoK. Sharing same Loot with all tanks cause it is made cookie cutter style but getting the lower benefit of it, cause of the lower base crit.As i already said this expansions seems to be the expasion of the brawlers, they gave hudge feedback in beta and got much attention. Everybody was crying about sk being overpowered so the base for constuktive feedback wasnt the best. Reflect spell was nerfed to not crit or be affected by potency which maked it near to useless as a damage source.This expansion seems to be mostly single or small encounters wich give the mechanism of crit and base crit chance a greater weight in dealing damage.Some bugs like stacking bloodletter above 2 where fixed , but they didnt care for some of the problems like lifetap/healing not scaling to the new amount of hit points and damage incomming. The strike through problem on our furor spell was also not adressed. Aggro snap on our myth dosnt works like it was once and told by the description as a 100% aggro snap. (does about 4 positions)An open word before this maybe turns again into an flame war:To get in line with leather tanks advantages we can either ask for fixing our class mechanism or just cry nerf havoc on other classes. Everyone is free to decide what he wants to do.But crying on people who try to be constuctive to get their class fixed will end in nerf crys to other classes.So its also in their hands too.

Darkonx

03-18-2011, 08:26 PM

<cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote>Alright, now that we have a pretty good handle on how things are feeling in DoV there seem to be some issues surfacing that should be addressed for balance against other fighters.1. Base Melee Crit Multiplier. With the introduction of MA, especially in combo with DW, it is becoming pretty obvious that the lack of melee crit multiplier that Crusaders get is outdated. This needs to be increased from 1.3 to 1.5 for Melee.2. Itemization. I am at a loss with this since yeah it would be nice to have all the MA we seem to be missing on Fighter loot. But on the other hand MA is not that strong of a stat for Crusaders since we 1h most of the time and MA with a 1h is significantly less effective compared to MA with DW. Yes we should have MA, but I really think there needs to be itemized Crusader weapons which make up for the fact they are just 1h'ing all the time. Knights Stance is just not even coming close to cutting it anymore...especially compared to Fighters that can DW while tanking and still get maximum avoidance.3. 2h weapons need to be equal to 2-1h. Looking at weapons that means with my 1h wep that does a 700 top end, the 2h that has a top end up 1030 needs about 370 more top end to be on par. But it goes beyond that. With adornments being so important this xpac 2h weps need double the adornment slots that 1h weps do. Or, give 2h weps some unique type of procs to make up for losing a white and red adornment slot.4. Strike-thru. If Brawlers are going to retain strike-thru immunity than other fighters need the same benefit in defensive stance. There is no longer any mit advantage or damage reduction advantage that Plate tanks have over leather tanks. So giving Plates immune to strike thru on defensive stance would actually even out the tank field and make defensive stance a must use tank stance. Not to mention the huge annoyance of using an ability that is supposed to be a short term survive ability, only to be struck thru it and die right away.5. DPS. Fixing some of the above will help in this department. SKs are offensive tanks. And yet raiding in DoV we are falling further and further behind in DPS. Healers have no problem spiking over us in DPS now. Not only does this have a huge effect on our raid contribution when not tanking, but it also effects our hate more than any other tank. SKs have always been a class that is supposed to rely on DPS more than other fighters for hate, and hence were given a lot less hate tools. SKs have no hate siphon. SKs do not have huge amounts of reactive hate. SKs do not have positional climbing abilities on fast recast. SKs have the least amount of taunts. This is a serious impact.DoV basically tore up SF where Fighter balance was extremely good and Fighters in general were doing well in what they were able to contribute to groups/raids. We need to work at getting back there.</blockquote>This post is pretty spot on. The fact that lifetaps don't scale in comparison to the health pools that we're seeing is also broken. The issues need to be fixed. Right now the combination of these problems is making DOV an xpac where it's more annoying than fun to play a tank.

Kimber

03-18-2011, 11:58 PM

@ BruenerI know what I am talking about contrary to what you think. SK's have more Hate tools than Zerks I have a 90 Zerk and I have played a 90 SK both in roughly the same gear. Tanking on the SK was much easier and had more tools to keep said aggro than my Zerk. I however actually do a better on my zerk though as its mine and I know the class much better than the SK but it would not take much time to switch over and probably actually do better on the SK than the Zerk just cause it is easier with more tools. Oh and btw I out parse the SK on my Zerk no matter which of us is playing the SK so the come back of you did more DPS on the SK is why it was easier is BS.I realize that i will more than likely get flamed for my above post but hey whatever. Its what I exper and saw call me a noob list all the CA's and what not that have threat on them blah blah. SK has more and better tools for Hate than a Zerk thats it.Oh and last thing I was not trying to make this post about Zerks in the SK forum just using it as a comparison as I have a 90 Zerk. If you read my original post you would see that I agreed with much of what you said.

Phelon_Skellhound

03-19-2011, 04:34 PM

<cite>Kimber@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>@ BruenerI know what I am talking about contrary to what you think. SK's have more Hate tools than Zerks I have a 90 Zerk and I have played a 90 SK both in roughly the same gear. Tanking on the SK was much easier and had more tools to keep said aggro than my Zerk. I however actually do a better on my zerk though as its mine and I know the class much better than the SK but it would not take much time to switch over and probably actually do better on the SK than the Zerk just cause it is easier with more tools. Oh and btw I out parse the SK on my Zerk no matter which of us is playing the SK so the come back of you did more DPS on the SK is why it was easier is BS.I realize that i will more than likely get flamed for my above post but hey whatever. Its what I exper and saw call me a noob list all the CA's and what not that have threat on them blah blah. SK has more and better tools for Hate than a Zerk thats it.Oh and last thing I was not trying to make this post about Zerks in the SK forum just using it as a comparison as I have a 90 Zerk. If you read my original post you would see that I agreed with much of what you said.</blockquote>You are getting snap agro and hate tools mixed up... We have the snap agro tools.. Although I find my self hitting Rescue only to have it snap back to Uber DPSer 2 hits later IF and thats IF the mob felt like snaping to me on Rescue especially if its another DPS tank like the Brawler or Zerker... Our Hate is not imediate, its mostly based off of Hate over Time. Zerks are suppose to out DPS SK's as the offensive warrior is suppose to. <cite>Kimber@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>The part that I am saying wow about is the DPS part. You are a tank not a DPS class Zerk is the tank class that relied on DPS to hold hate SK has allot better tools for hate than a Zerk both crusaders do tbh. </blockquote>Ummm, Yes we are... Zerker is to the Guard as Sk is to the Pally. SK's is the offensive Crusader class and was designed to do do damage using DoT's mostly... Which was fixed to not have our Crits affect our ticking dots anymore (which probably made us a bit OP cuz of the critting ae dots, add to that the crits on heal ticks for heal over time hate). Only the the initial hit is affected by crit.Alright enough of the other class comparison talk.. PS: Its always been said that Agro is EVERYONE'S responsibility... Ummm lets face it, everyone is a parse junky at heart and just rips into mobs before we even say the word "in... *sigh* coming" lol

yzyh

03-19-2011, 06:12 PM

The 2 major concern about SK are life tap beeing gimped now since they almost not scaled compared to our total HP and the other one is our lack of strike trough making SK having a hard time holding aggro in raids.I don,t mind if DoV if the exppention where guardian and brawlers shine, but our gimped lfie tap and aggro should be looked at.Also too that noob claiming Zerker are dependant to DPS to generate aggro and not SK. Just get out of these boards till you know whats your talking about.

Kimber

03-20-2011, 12:18 AM

<img src="/eq2/images/smilies/2786c5c8e1a8be796fb2f726cca5a0fe.gif" border="0" /> I should realize by now that you have to fully explain yourself on these boards and never leave anything to doubt or leave it to someone to understand what you are talking about. Not going to bother though everyone is right or wrong depending on how they look at things. I will say again I think the list given here is a good one and these things need to be looked at and fixed.

Nakash

03-22-2011, 12:51 PM

mrp1247

03-28-2011, 05:46 PM

<cite>Azzaroth@Valor wrote:</cite><blockquote>Zerks and Sks where the DPS based tanks by concept from day one. Not only Zerk <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" /> thats was whishfull thinking of some people.Things for SK where broken many times and it seems is nearly back to where they where in RoK. Sharing same Loot with all tanks cause it is made cookie cutter style but getting the lower benefit of it, cause of the lower base crit.As i already said this expansions seems to be the expasion of the brawlers, they gave hudge feedback in beta and got much attention. Everybody was crying about sk being overpowered so the base for constuktive feedback wasnt the best. Reflect spell was nerfed to not crit or be affected by potency which maked it near to useless as a damage source.This expansion seems to be mostly single or small encounters wich give the mechanism of crit and base crit chance a greater weight in dealing damage.Some bugs like stacking bloodletter above 2 where fixed , but they didnt care for some of the problems like lifetap/healing not scaling to the new amount of hit points and damage incomming. The strike through problem on our furor spell was also not adressed. Aggro snap on our myth dosnt works like it was once and told by the description as a 100% aggro snap. (does about 4 positions)An open word before this maybe turns again into an flame war:To get in line with leather tanks advantages we can either ask for fixing our class mechanism or just cry nerf havoc on other classes. Everyone is free to decide what he wants to do.But crying on people who try to be constuctive to get their class fixed will end in nerf crys to other classes.So its also in their hands too.</blockquote>Good post Azzaroth. I agree our lifetaps need some adjustments as well as effectiveness of our taunts and snaps. I notice taunts and snaps seeming to go ignored by many encounters. I hit the mob with 2 taunts and a snap as it runs right past me and smacks a healer or ranged dps. Has anyone else noticed Rescue and Sneering Assault only having a 50% hit rate according to ACT ?

Shinjee

04-10-2011, 04:18 AM

<cite>Lydos@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Azzaroth@Valor wrote:</cite><blockquote>Zerks and Sks where the DPS based tanks by concept from day one. Not only Zerk <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" /> thats was whishfull thinking of some people.Things for SK where broken many times and it seems is nearly back to where they where in RoK. Sharing same Loot with all tanks cause it is made cookie cutter style but getting the lower benefit of it, cause of the lower base crit.As i already said this expansions seems to be the expasion of the brawlers, they gave hudge feedback in beta and got much attention. Everybody was crying about sk being overpowered so the base for constuktive feedback wasnt the best. Reflect spell was nerfed to not crit or be affected by potency which maked it near to useless as a damage source.This expansion seems to be mostly single or small encounters wich give the mechanism of crit and base crit chance a greater weight in dealing damage.Some bugs like stacking bloodletter above 2 where fixed , but they didnt care for some of the problems like lifetap/healing not scaling to the new amount of hit points and damage incomming. The strike through problem on our furor spell was also not adressed. Aggro snap on our myth dosnt works like it was once and told by the description as a 100% aggro snap. (does about 4 positions)An open word before this maybe turns again into an flame war:To get in line with leather tanks advantages we can either ask for fixing our class mechanism or just cry nerf havoc on other classes. Everyone is free to decide what he wants to do.But crying on people who try to be constuctive to get their class fixed will end in nerf crys to other classes.So its also in their hands too.</blockquote>Good post Azzaroth. I agree our lifetaps need some adjustments as well as effectiveness of our taunts and snaps. I notice taunts and snaps seeming to go ignored by many encounters. I hit the mob with 2 taunts and a snap as it runs right past me and smacks a healer or ranged dps. Has anyone else noticed Rescue and Sneering Assault only having a 50% hit rate according to ACT ?</blockquote>Yes, I am having the same issues. I'll use my taunts and or snaps that ppl are crying at me to use(or lrn2use) for that matter.. when I've definitely used them. I know how to play my class, but when I cycle through 2-3 snaps along with both taunts(if you can even call them that) and they do absolutely nothing.. while the mob(s) run right by me.. what can I do? With all the 'snaps' having such long recast timers on them, and the 2 regular taunts being almost all but completely useless on average.. I use my bow, taunts, cycle through my dps rotation and snaps as needed.. but with no adjustments being made to the crusader base crit multiplier and our strikethrough being lower than others.. People in the game on average, unless they have and play an SK just don't get or understand all this either..My survivability is way down too.. which falls under my taps being too small for current levels of HP and incoming dmgs, not critting and not being castable while moving.. Maybe they'll deem fit, to come in and make some much needed changes.. I'm all for the Brawlers getting all the much needed attention that they got, it was about time for them! I'm just saying, I'm a plate tank, that takes dmgs as if I was wearing cloth.. and there doesn't seem to be anything I can do about it, sides hope my healers are at par and awake :'(

Talathion

04-11-2011, 08:48 PM

Heal Crits...Alot of your hate actually came from your healing...1 point of healing = 1 point of hate.The only thing that SKs need is to heal critical again. :/Both Tanks, SKs and Zerkers are pretty [Removed for Content] this expac, as soon as you use a snap aggro the GOOD DPS get it right back, nothing you can do.Both Tanks also do not have any hate tools other tanks get, and they do not have the protection either, but other tanks retain the same DPS as us? its pretty stupid IMO.I hate how we always argue and fight with eachother, we are both in the same ship here, we both need fixed IMO.Also, if you increase SKs Melee Crit Modifier to 1.5, can you Raise Zerks to 1.7?

Haruchai

06-14-2011, 08:24 AM

I am not sure how active this thread still is but I will see what happens.I was a SK back on old EQ since it came out march of 99. Seen a ton of changes the SK had to go through and how we started out the worst, came out really good through the years and lately I have read some pretty messed up stuff over there since I have been here on EQII.It seems to me, the flavor of the SK has been lost here on EQII. We derived alot of our ability through using the mobs health against itself as we drained it Life Taps both Actively and Passively and kept ourselves alive using its own health.We had good Passive Taps, DD Life Taps and Dot Life Taps and even a Damage Shield with a Life Tap which all added up nicely combined. We even had a Life Tap/Mana Tap that effected the group which gave us some limited utility, heck it even effected Pets. We had Taps that helped cripple the mob.I think what is wrong here is that a lot of concepts have been lost over time and EQII has dumbified a lot since I have come back here.I was doing beta here and even then I was against the whole idea of DPS Tanks which is totally wrong. Tanks are meant for one purpose, TANKING. Its HOW we each Tank that should matter, DPS is just a far secondary issue. If you want DPS, that is what a DPS class is for. Even the idea of a MT out of the Tanks was as archaic back then and is even more so now. How Zerks and Brawlers even made it into that class is beyond good reasoning.While you guys are trying to get fixed what is broken such as Strike Through (which all the tanks should have a defense against) and other issue, you should be trying to get back the concept of the SK and the right abilities that make it so.Stronger Life Taps, Life Taping Damage Shields (which would act as mitigation, dmg and hate gain), etc, etc. Get them to change that stupid Int Taps into more health, or a group Power Tap would be great. Somthing that adds some Utility not just for the SK but for the group.Dots that not only do Dmg but drop resists or mitigation on the mob as long as the dot lasts.I just think the concept of what it means to be a Knight on the Dark side has been lost and you have alot of abilities that cross the same lines as so many other classes, its just different names with just different numbers on a Icon instead of something that really makes a SK or any other class different and do things in different ways to acomplish the same goals.We should be draining and crippling our opponents as we kill them. And what is up with all these massive AoEs? Sure some would be fine, but I would rather see more AoEs that target only 4 mobs and the one you are on, taking 100% more damage as it takes the brunt of the AoE. You have the Casters for the large groups and when you are stuck facing Heroics and Boss mobs, your DPS is much higher for those types of encounters, its a trade off, but should be a good one.I just think EQII's class concepts watered things down so much and twisted some of it, what it means to be this or that class got lost in the shuffl and things got watered down to numbers with a different Icon to repersent it but we are all to close to being the same.Thanks for your timeHaru

Gaarysal

07-07-2011, 12:45 PM

<cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote>Alright, now that we have a pretty good handle on how things are feeling in DoV there seem to be some issues surfacing that should be addressed for balance against other fighters.1. Base Melee Crit Multiplier. With the introduction of MA, especially in combo with DW, it is becoming pretty obvious that the lack of melee crit multiplier that Crusaders get is outdated. This needs to be increased from 1.3 to 1.5 for Melee.2. Itemization. I am at a loss with this since yeah it would be nice to have all the MA we seem to be missing on Fighter loot. But on the other hand MA is not that strong of a stat for Crusaders since we 1h most of the time and MA with a 1h is significantly less effective compared to MA with DW. Yes we should have MA, but I really think there needs to be itemized Crusader weapons which make up for the fact they are just 1h'ing all the time. Knights Stance is just not even coming close to cutting it anymore...especially compared to Fighters that can DW while tanking and still get maximum avoidance.3. 2h weapons need to be equal to 2-1h. Looking at weapons that means with my 1h wep that does a 700 top end, the 2h that has a top end up 1030 needs about 370 more top end to be on par. But it goes beyond that. With adornments being so important this xpac 2h weps need double the adornment slots that 1h weps do. Or, give 2h weps some unique type of procs to make up for losing a white and red adornment slot.4. Strike-thru. If Brawlers are going to retain strike-thru immunity than other fighters need the same benefit in defensive stance. There is no longer any mit advantage or damage reduction advantage that Plate tanks have over leather tanks. So giving Plates immune to strike thru on defensive stance would actually even out the tank field and make defensive stance a must use tank stance. Not to mention the huge annoyance of using an ability that is supposed to be a short term survive ability, only to be struck thru it and die right away.5. DPS. Fixing some of the above will help in this department. SKs are offensive tanks. And yet raiding in DoV we are falling further and further behind in DPS. Healers have no problem spiking over us in DPS now. Not only does this have a huge effect on our raid contribution when not tanking, but it also effects our hate more than any other tank. SKs have always been a class that is supposed to rely on DPS more than other fighters for hate, and hence were given a lot less hate tools. SKs have no hate siphon. SKs do not have huge amounts of reactive hate. SKs do not have positional climbing abilities on fast recast. SKs have the least amount of taunts. This is a serious impact.DoV basically tore up SF where Fighter balance was extremely good and Fighters in general were doing well in what they were able to contribute to groups/raids. We need to work at getting back there.</blockquote>I agree pretty much 100% with this. Base crit modifier needs to be brought on par with other tanks if not in the melee then with spells, having only a bonus to taunt is BS. The reason I say spells is most parses look like melee is falling further behind, no longer the 50+% it used to be (probably due to hitrates which are exceptionally bad this expansion). With that being said we should get aas to boost our spells primarily dots. Our fastest DoT is a 2 second tick (pestillence) while all the others hang at around 4-5 seconds, we really need those to be compressed down a lot just like warlocks and necros so that our damage actually fully occurs before the spell is recastable, and happens fast enough to gain quick aggro. In addition to dot compression I think we need to be able to cast the vast majority or all of our spells on the run just like bards, can't tell you how many times the conjs eb with their pet half a mile away and its out of spell range before I can get anything off, it would also greatly help aggro on the pull.However, if our melee is supposed to be playing a bigger role and is just failing to do so due to lack of dual wielding then we definately need a rework of knight's stance. It needs to add more modifier with a shield and also have an effect with a 2h, something that will balance it with dual wielding if the items themselves do not get bumped to higher top ends. Perhaps the effect on the dirge mythical proc and brawlers' combat mastery either temp or permanant (I know thats dreaming big lol) to make all melee attacks hit for maximum values.Side note, mythical proc to create hate from lifetaps needs to extend to all of our healing including blood siphon, aura of leadership, reaver (if it does not already), grim harbinger (not sure if this works or not since procs don't proc procs and very difficult to tell what does effect it), ect.