Where are all the demons?

[Belzeebub2]

<p>In all swords and sorcery games and books which have their own internal mythology and lore have demons of various types. Why are there none in EQ2 (night bloods don't count) , surely the gnolls, goblins, orc and various other sentient life in norrath have they ow mythology? so where is Norrath's equivelant to LoTR's Balrog, or the demons of chaos from the Warhammer series (not the MMo the table top game im referring to).</p><p>Anyone able to answer my question? =/</p>

[kelvmor]

<p><cite>Belzeebub2 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>In all swords and sorcery games and books which have their own internal mythology and lore have demons of various types. Why are there none in EQ2 (night bloods don't count) , surely the gnolls, goblins, orc and various other sentient life in norrath have they ow mythology? so where is Norrath's equivelant to LoTR's Balrog, or the demons of chaos from the Warhammer series (not the MMo the table top game im referring to).</p><p>Anyone able to answer my question? =/</p></blockquote><p>The only "demons" come from the Void and the Planes of Hate and Fire.</p><p>There is no equivalent to a Balrog, or the demons of the Abyss (ala Forgotten Realms), or whatever else, really. The closest you can get are the imps and the nightbloods, and the lamia.</p>

[Cusashorn]

<p>Yeah there have never been "Demons" in Everquest. The Nightbloods and Succubi are the closest that we have, and they're from the Void. Back in the Plane of Hate, we had imps, but that was it.</p><p>Oh right, Plane of Fire had a few as well.</p><p>Fennin Ro:</p><p><img src="http://www.realmofages.com/archives/pics/mob_fennin_ro.jpg" width="400" height="305" /></p><p><a href="http://www.temerityguild.org/forums/showthread.php?31782-Fennin-Ro-Falls-To-Temerity!" target="_blank">Most of the names in the Plane of Fire had the Demon apperance though.</a></p>

[Lodrelhai]

<p>I think there's a basic flaw in the question; the OP is asking where the demons are without actually defining what kind of creature is meant by "demons".  Depending on the mythology , a demon can be a divine servant that rebelled against its god, a divine servant in service to an evil god, or simply an independant spirit that causes hardships of various degrees (and which is then often translated as "demon" when the culture/language of its origin doesn't even have a concept of demons in the same way Western cultures do).</p><p>In the case of the first, almost every god and god's servant in the Norrathian panthenon could be considered a demon because of their actions against Theer.  After all, Theer is the Avatar of the Nameless, sent to make the pantheon behave themselves, to which they responded by banding together against him and tossing him in the Void.  Sounds like rebellion against their creator-god to me.  The Marr twins, Rodcet Nife, and Bertoxxolus may be the only ones getting a pass, as there are reasons to believe they were not involved in the rebellion against Theer.  (Hey Bertie-worshippers, you're following a good god!)</p><p>(As an aside, there's a quest in which you get a chance to speak to Prexus himself, and I'm rather amused that he talks about Theer oppressing the gods before he was thrown in the Void.  <a href="http://everquest2.com/news_archive_content.vm?month=032009&id=2094" target="_blank">The story from Eylee</a> says that the pantheon were abusing and terrorizing the mortals in their constant wars for supremacy, and Theer was sent to stop them.  One way or another someone's doing some historical revision...)</p><p>Going to the second definition, any servant - which in this case would probably be any native planar being - of one of the "evil" gods is a demon.  Shard of Hate mobs?  Demons.  Shard of Fear?  Them too, plus all the denizens that are wandering around near the gate to Fear in the Feerrot.  If you go from the premise that the Nameless, being the creator of all, is by default the definition of "good" (his sandbox, his rules), we're back to almost everyone in the pantheon being evil, and all of their servants are theirfore also demons.</p><p>By the third definition (it's a demon because its similar to what we think of as demons rather than because that's what it's actually called), nightbloods, lamia, and imps all could count.   Those walking shadow-things that give off an aura of darkness probably also would count, along with the claw-handed Void creatures (grathok I think?) and probably the hellhound pets we get from the vampire fang collection in Tombs of Night.  Heck, for causing hardships Bristlebane could count as a minor demon for all the mischief he causes, or Brell for being a patron of brewers and drinkers everywhere (ever heard of "that demon liquor?").  It's all in your perception.</p><p>Which would mean, I guess, that nothing would count for the OP, because nothing "looks like" a demon to his/her way of thinking.</p>

[Loxus]

<p>It all depends on the context really, In order to have demons or the like (in the judeo-christian context) - you would need some semblence of hell or ultimate evil since demons (in the religious context) are maleviolent beings bent on goal of punishing/torturing mortal souls who have committed sins which eq doesn't really have. </p><p>The closest thing for the Everquest universe would be the Planes of hate, fear and the sub-plane of nightmares along with the void to a limited extent.  Therefore all creatures from those planes of exsistance could techniquely be classified as demons but it would be a stretch.  In contrast, you don't see anything that could be classified as Angels either.</p><p>The plane of fire doesn't really count (in my eyes) because it's not really a plane of punishment (unless you raided in EQ1).  I loved that place and the fights nontheless.</p>

[Cusashorn]

Yeah that's right. There are no angels in this game either. The Valkyries are the closest we get.

[Meirril]

<p><cite>Lodrelhai wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>  If you go from the premise that the Nameless, being the creator of all, is by default the definition of "good" (his sandbox, his rules), we're back to almost everyone in the pantheon being evil, and all of their servants are theirfore also demons.</p></blockquote><p>Just going to point out that the Nameless didn't really create much. He created Norrath, The Void, some more rocks floating around the void, and the elemental dieties. That is it. So everything else was created by The Rathe, the 3 water dieties, Fennin Ro, Veeshan, Xegony or their decendents. In effect, creations of their creations. ( I could of missed an elemental diety or two.)</p><p>So if your going to call second generation creations "evil" then so is every living being on Norrath. If your going to call them "good" because the are decendent beings from the Nameless' origional actions then everything is "good".</p><p>You could argue that some of this comes from outside of the Nameless' area of influence/creation. But according to the lore...he created everything including stuff outside of Norrath.</p>

[Cusashorn]

Yeah it's the 4 elemental gods that created the major deities, who themselves created lesser and demi-gods. I don't see how you can figure that almost all of the deities are evil by his standards. How are the concepts of love, honor, valor, nature, tranquility, health, and dreams suppose to be evil? The Nameless just Is. Yes, he had an avatar to ensure balance in the pantheon, but he just is. He is the force that wills the universe to exist. Good and evil are beyond his realm of control.

[Rainmare]

<p>Demons and Angels coudl be simply defined by each PCs faith. for example, a tunarian paladin like myself woudl consider denziens of Growth to be my 'angels' and denizens of Hate to be my 'demons'....then add in the alliances among the goods, and my angels are denizens of Growth/Valor/Storms/Tranquility/Love and my demons are denizens of Hate/Disease/Fear/War and possibly Flame becuase o fhis obviously ally in Rallos.</p>

[Lodrelhai]

<p><cite>Cusashorn wrote:</cite></p><blockquote>Yeah it's the 4 elemental gods that created the major deities, who themselves created lesser and demi-gods. I don't see how you can figure that almost all of the deities are evil by his standards. How are the concepts of love, honor, valor, nature, tranquility, health, and dreams suppose to be evil? The Nameless just Is. Yes, he had an avatar to ensure balance in the pantheon, but he just is. He is the force that wills the universe to exist. Good and evil are beyond his realm of control.</blockquote><p>This is why I specified by the standard of "his sandbox, his rules."  His rule was for the gods to play nice, when they wouldn't he gave them a babysitter, and then they locked the babysitter out of the house.</p><p>By saying love, honor, valor, nature, tranquility, etc can't be evil, you're judging by a standard of noble vs ignoble, or helpful vs hurtful, or something else we consider the dividing line between good and evil.</p><p>Honestly, nature *should* be neutral, because, like the Nameless, it just Is.  Health too, really, and probably dreams as well.  Heck, health and decay should both be sub-dieties of nature, since they are both vital parts of the cycle of life and death.  ANY diety or influence can be considered good or evil, angelic or demonic.  It all depends on the standard being used.</p>

[Meirril]

<p><cite>Lodrelhai wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Cusashorn wrote:</cite></p><blockquote>Yeah it's the 4 elemental gods that created the major deities, who themselves created lesser and demi-gods. I don't see how you can figure that almost all of the deities are evil by his standards. How are the concepts of love, honor, valor, nature, tranquility, health, and dreams suppose to be evil? The Nameless just Is. Yes, he had an avatar to ensure balance in the pantheon, but he just is. He is the force that wills the universe to exist. Good and evil are beyond his realm of control.</blockquote><p>This is why I specified by the standard of "his sandbox, his rules."  His rule was for the gods to play nice, when they wouldn't he gave them a babysitter, and then they locked the babysitter out of the house.</p><p>By saying love, honor, valor, nature, tranquility, etc can't be evil, you're judging by a standard of noble vs ignoble, or helpful vs hurtful, or something else we consider the dividing line between good and evil.</p><p>Honestly, nature *should* be neutral, because, like the Nameless, it just Is.  Health too, really, and probably dreams as well.  Heck, health and decay should both be sub-dieties of nature, since they are both vital parts of the cycle of life and death.  ANY diety or influence can be considered good or evil, angelic or demonic.  It all depends on the standard being used.</p></blockquote><p>Honestly Theer is an anomoly in the Nameless' behavior. Quite frankly, he just doesn't fit with the Nameless' hands off approach to the universe. Mostly the Nameless seems to be interested in watching how his creation turns out. It isn't like he gave the gods a list of rules to follow. (Or if he did, they arn't sharing with the mortals.)</p><p>The real mistake in this coversation is throwing around the terms "good" and "evil". Each of the gods is a flawed being that holds sway over something. With the elemental gods it is an elemental force. With the dieties of influence it is mostly emotions, or parts of our daily lives though there are some exceptions. Demigods are just beings that have been granted a portion of a real god's power and influence over a single aspect of that god's portfolio. Very few of the gods can be labled "good" or "evil". The great majority of them simply are. I wouldn't call them neutral either. They are more self-intersted.</p><p>The only really neutral diety is the Nameless. You challenge him by threatning his realm (existance itself) and he doesn't raise a finger to stop it. That is neutrality. Every other diety will fight tooth an nail to perserve their realm of control.</p>

[Zabjade]

<p><span style="color: #00cc00;">Theer was originally supposed to keep the Balance but, being ganged up on and imprisoned in the Void probably messed with his head.</span></p><p><span style="color: #00cc00;"></span></p><p><span style="color: #00cc00;">As for The Nameless and his/her/it/hir's "hands off" approach, I have to wonder if the Nameless. is in-fact, highly active. Just not making a big deal over it.</span></p>

[ratbast]

<p>i agree with most of the posts here, in that eq2 has a very ambiguous morality spectrum, and a nonexistent spiritual outcome post death, both heaven/hell and ascended/damned. the closest thing is the tower(single destination), and it doesnt spell anything out.</p><p>in eq2, there is no measurement of moral decay, or damage of relationship to postmortal authority. those would be the 2 pathways a demon should inspire fear. the closest thing eq2 could come up with, would be wiping/destroying a players ability to worship a specific diety. meh</p><p>what would a demons damage type be? warlocks do poison and disease. i would argue a demons closest damage type would be divine. the current occult direction is undead, void, poison, disease.</p><p>having a pantheon with some dieties embracing undeath means unholy is relative. you could embrace undeath in life, and be squared away with your god, and received into paradise. no spiritual penalties.</p><p>eq2's theology really prevents demons, and softens lines of good/evil. afaik, the afterlife in eq2 is assumed to be heaven for all, and more adventures past the horizon in a new existence, reborn to new universe.</p><p>eq2 dieties exist in the norrath universe. after you leave norrath, what claim could they possibly have on you? all their interests are based here. when you die, you dont go to the plane of hate, fear, etc. you go beyond norrath, planes of inlfluence, elemental planes, even the void. you leave the space the nameless initiated.</p><p>players come from another realm, and are travelers in norrath universe, and will pass on. major dieties were born here, and will die here.</p><p>traditional demons would require story arc spanning afterlife existence.</p><p>IMO, eqnext should be the afterlife of eq2, and have a real process for permakilling them in eq2 so they actually moved over to eqnext. This would enable eq2 players to transition their toons to new game and keep their beloved characters.</p><p>in eq2, evil is not as hellish and horror as demons; evil is more like an alternative lifestyle that is accepted in some legitimatized circles. demons are moot/not applicable in current eq2 theology.</p>

[Meirril]

<p>Actually EQ2's afterlife is not spelled out very well for us. We know that you pass into the Ethanere, and eventually you come to Deathtoll. When the tower rings your souls go onto their final reward. Some mortals that have raised a dietie's interest are brought into their realm and claimed as servants of that god. Other souls go onto their proper destination and...and...</p><p>We don't know. I've had a theory for a while, that souls contribute to the gods power base of those that they worshipped in life. Worship not only consists of prayers, but also feeling the appropriate emotions. Maybe those souls contribute directly to a dietie's power, or maybe they help to form or maintain a dietie's home plane. Either way, the great majority of souls arn't found in the planes. However, they remain contactable for an awfully long time.</p><p>For instance Venirril was not only able to contact the souls of his dead decendents, but was able to transform them into Liches long after their deaths. That actually brings up more questions about death and souls in the everquest universe since most were thousands of years dead.</p>

[MixxitNDance_Live]

<p>I feel kind of bad for the souls that get snatched back just before their final reward! Bloody gods!</p>