Time to re-visit recent threat generation changes

[threat111]

<p>Right now high dps classes are generating much more "threat" then fighters can generate on thier own.  Obviously some of the fighter classes have tools to siphon hate from other people in thier groups IE amends, moderate ect.  Although this puts those classes at a distinct advantage over classes with out such abilities, there needs to be a way to close the gap between DPS classes and Tank hate generation for all of the fighters.</p><p>As some of you know, and some may not, 1 damage = 1 threat.  So to calculate the amount of hate some one generates you simply combine the DPS with the appropriate amount of + threat or - threat to get a total hate amount.  Obviously there has been a move away from allowing some of the fighter classes to DPS for hate and put the focus on threat.  Thats fine I have no issues at all with not topping pares, but I still beed to do my job and I dont feel the tools where passed out equally to do this.  The ability to DPS to hold aggro is no longer possible.  DPS classes are gaining DPS exponentially faster then fighters and nothing has been done to balance the amount of hate we are generating to compensate.</p><p>The lift on the hate cap was useful but its not enough.  You cant simply remove the cap on something with out itemizing the change to make it relevant.  Overall the items need to reflect this recent change in philosophy.  Items need to have more +hate, or mods to threat in general.  This change as well as a re-visit to tuants and detaunt values need to be considered.  Taunts and detaunts need to be increased 10 fold.  My tuants in thier current form are all but useless.  Taunts are generating a pathetic amount of hate when you compare them to the damage most CA's and spells are putting out.  Re-use times on positional tuants should also be lowered as well.</p>

[Aull]

<p>Nice write up. I would also like for there to be a chance to double taunt/ triple taunt as well.</p>

[Silzin]

I think this topic has bin brot up many times since the beginning of Beta. part of the quick fix was to increase the +hate. that helped some but the mechanics behind threat generation are broken, need to be reworked and rebalanced. The sear fact that most all fighters generate less aggro when in defensive stance is a major problem. I think there have bin several suggestion about just how to do it but it relay needs to be done.

[Gungo]

<p><cite>Cesium@Nagafen wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>The lift on the hate cap was useful but its not enough.  You cant simply remove the cap on something with out itemizing the change to make it relevant. </p></blockquote><p>You can get 99% hate from adornments ALONE. Hate % is itemized already.   100% hate gain and 50% deagro means 1 point of dps from fighter is equal 0.25% of dps from a scout/mage.</p><p>I agree taunts are not as useful as dps though and havent been for some time, especially the two main fighter taunts lines.</p>

[threat111]

<p><cite>Gungo@Crushbone wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Cesium@Nagafen wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>The lift on the hate cap was useful but its not enough.  You cant simply remove the cap on something with out itemizing the change to make it relevant. </p></blockquote><p>You can get 99% hate from adornments ALONE. Hate % is itemized already.   100% hate gain and 50% deagro means 1 point of dps from fighter is equal 0.25% of dps from a scout/mage.</p><p>I agree taunts are not as useful as dps though and havent been for some time, especially the two main fighter taunts lines.</p></blockquote><p>Itemization isnt the removal of useful items that help me perform my role,  its adding +hate and threat generation tools to existing items so as not to further emphisize the differance in our ability to hold aggro now.  Removing crucial red adorns that increase my survivability and replacing them with +hate mods is insane.  It makes about as much sence as asking a wizard to replace those potency adornments with - hate mods.</p><p>I was never comparing or requesting taunts to get DPS improvements.  Taunts in general (the threat increase part) could be multiplied by 10 and still wouldnt be a drop in the bucket vs the amount of dps the scouts and mages are putting out now.</p>

[Gungo]

<p><cite>Cesium@Nagafen wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Gungo@Crushbone wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Cesium@Nagafen wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>The lift on the hate cap was useful but its not enough.  You cant simply remove the cap on something with out itemizing the change to make it relevant. </p></blockquote><p>You can get 99% hate from adornments ALONE. Hate % is itemized already.   100% hate gain and 50% deagro means 1 point of dps from fighter is equal 0.25% of dps from a scout/mage.</p><p>I agree taunts are not as useful as dps though and havent been for some time, especially the two main fighter taunts lines.</p></blockquote><p>Itemization isnt the removal of useful items that help me perform my role,  its adding +hate and threat generation tools to existing items so as not to further emphisize the differance in our ability to hold aggro now.  Removing crucial red adorns that increase my survivability and replacing them with +hate mods is insane.  It makes about as much sence as asking a wizard to replace those potency adornments with - hate mods.</p><p>I was never comparing or requesting taunts to get DPS improvements.  Taunts in general (the threat increase part) could be multiplied by 10 and still wouldnt be a drop in the bucket vs the amount of dps the scouts and mages are putting out now.</p></blockquote><p>Your role is to take damage and hold aggro not dps.I didnt say just RED adornments red, yellow and white ALL have hate%.There is very few adornments that are specifically suvivability. There is PLENTY of spots for red yellow and white adornments for hate gain.</p><p>Maybe you need to reevalute either what class you play or learn how to adorn yourself. Because if you learn to min max ANY class regardless if they have AA's for hate gain or not they can get 99%+ hate gain and a smart player would know how to max thier toon so they have just enough hate gain from adornments so they can max hate gain w a coercer/dirge and not waste adornment slots.</p>

[acctlc]

<p><cite>Cesium@Nagafen wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Right now high dps classes are generating much more "threat" then fighters can generate on thier own.  Obviously some of the fighter classes have tools to siphon hate from other people in thier groups IE amends, moderate ect.  Although this puts those classes at a distinct advantage over classes with out such abilities, there needs to be a way to close the gap between DPS classes and Tank hate generation for all of the fighters.</p><p>As some of you know, and some may not, 1 damage = 1 threat.  So to calculate the amount of hate some one generates you simply combine the DPS with the appropriate amount of + threat or - threat to get a total hate amount.  Obviously there has been a move away from allowing some of the fighter classes to DPS for hate and put the focus on threat.  Thats fine I have no issues at all with not topping pares, but I still beed to do my job and I dont feel the tools where passed out equally to do this.  The ability to DPS to hold aggro is no longer possible.  DPS classes are gaining DPS exponentially faster then fighters and nothing has been done to balance the amount of hate we are generating to compensate.</p><p>The lift on the hate cap was useful but its not enough.  You cant simply remove the cap on something with out itemizing the change to make it relevant.  Overall the items need to reflect this recent change in philosophy.  Items need to have more +hate, or mods to threat in general.  This change as well as a re-visit to tuants and detaunt values need to be considered.  Taunts and detaunts need to be increased 10 fold.  My tuants in thier current form are all but useless.  Taunts are generating a pathetic amount of hate when you compare them to the damage most CA's and spells are putting out.  Re-use times on positional tuants should also be lowered as well.</p></blockquote><p>Couldn't have put it better.  You're making tanks HATE this xpac after only 2 weeks.   I've heard comments from my friends that have played and loved their fighters for a long time, that this xpac is making them want to quit eq2.  Thats a HUGE problem guys.  We tried to do a  TOFSx2 run on an off raid night tonight.  The setup wasn't perfect.  We had a troub giving dehate to one group, but no dirge, and no coercer to feed agro to the tanks.  It was ridiculous how horrible this went.  You've created such crippling class dependancies in your attempt to nerf fighter dps that its not even funny.  Even once we brought a dirge in I couldn't use certain attacks because I knew it would mean my pet would pull.  Why do I even have these abilities now if I can't use them.  I've done all I can, spec'd dehate for pet (I'm a conji) and am spamming my pet dehate button and its not enough.  Even the regular rotation of pet cast spells will overcome our quite competant MT guardian and monk.  To make matters worse the pet aggro meter only works about half the time!  It rarely works in instances and many times just doesn't seem to work on non named encounters.  Fix this and fix it soon before I have no tanks left in my guild.</p>

[Wasuna]

<p><cite>Arieva@Oasis wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Couldn't have put it better.  You're making tanks HATE this xpac after only 2 weeks.  </p></blockquote><p>I stopped there. I LOVE this expansion so far. That is becasue I get to do exactly what a fighter is suppose to and be an Agro generating meat shield first and set my AA's and itemization to maximize that. I have tools, combat arts and abilities that make my job interactive, fun and nesssecary for the proepr funtion of a group. Fighters are not suppose to be at the top of the parse. They are suppose to hold agro and stay alive and if you can do more DPS after than then good.</p><p>SF expansion ruined the fighers. Now everybody wants a SK, Paladin or Berserker to room pull an instance, heal themselves and top the parse. Heck yeah that's fun for the fighetrs and it makes the groups easy. This expansion is not easy mode and if you want to be a fighter in DoV then get back to what your job is.</p><p>No longer will I join a group and the first thing I see is a macro from the SK tank saying in group chat that they run offensive and hard and fast and if you can't keep up or heal through it then he will replace you.</p>

[Ironcleaver]

<p>I dont know, but it seems something changed after the patch on the 3rd when it comes to hate; but I can't place my finger on it.</p><p>Hate, even for the two tank classes that have syphons, has been far from perfect since the launch of Velious. At the beginning of this week we ran a guild group with (pretty much) all the top end dps classes of our raid (conj, necro, dirge, warlock) and I tanked. I believe I lost hate only once or twice. Yesterday we grouped again and right off the bat I knew something changed. This time I only had the warlock and a ranger in the group (for dps) and hate was all over the place. It almost felt like Amends was completely usless and nonfunctional. The warden of the group was even pulling "heal hate".</p><p>Last night we went and did the x2. This time I doubled the amount of hate mod I was adorning with and hate did seem better but it was still a little "wonky". The functionality my group syphon on the other hand seemed to be working perfectly.</p><p>Something changed on the 3rd. Either hate mod is worth a lot less then it use to be or someone botched up the single target syphons. I also grouped with our guild Guardian, and even his hate seemed "wonky" while running his syphon.</p><p>Before the 3rd, things were not perfect but something is buggy after the 3rd patch.</p>

[Wasuna]

<p><cite>Gungo@Crushbone wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Your role is to take damage and hold aggro not dps.I didnt say just RED adornments red, yellow and white ALL have hate%.There is very few adornments that are specifically suvivability. There is PLENTY of spots for red yellow and white adornments for hate gain.</p><p>Maybe you need to reevalute either what class you play or learn how to adorn yourself. Because if you learn to min max ANY class regardless if they have AA's for hate gain or not they can get 99%+ hate gain and a smart player would know how to max thier toon so they have just enough hate gain from adornments so they can max hate gain w a coercer/dirge and not waste adornment slots.</p></blockquote><p>You CAN get 99% with adornments. That does not mean that you HAVE to. You probably need something like ~30% solo and form groups that benefit you. If you want to run with a Brigand, a Ranger, 2 Conjours and an Illuionist then your gonna need ~60%+ hate mod solo and it's YOUR fault for forming that group.</p><p>Almsot any group make up can help the tank in some way. About the only classes that do not have some form of hate transfer/deagro type buffs are Brigands, Guardians, Paladins, SK's, Berserkers, Summoners, Rangers (not gonna count the bird) and basically all the healers.</p><p>I have not tanked any raids in DoV. I do not know how these agro generation issues will impact the raid setup and overall raid DPS. But then, living and beating the mob is the goal, not DPS. My wizard is speced 20% hate reduction and 10% hate transfer because, after extensive research, I have concluded that he parses higher when alive as compared to when he'd dead. He keeps up nicely with eaually geared wizards and ends up with a much higher zone wide parse and much lower repair costs. He does his job and is speced accoredingly (which I call tank friendly)</p>

[threat111]

<p><cite>Wasuna wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><blockquote>I have not tanked any raids in DoV. I do not know how these agro generation issues will impact the raid setup and overall raid DPS.</blockquote></blockquote><p>I stopped there.  Thank you for adding that very important information.</p>

[Gungo]

<p>Bottom line is there is no hate issue. Every heroic instance was cleard the first week of the expansion w/o the new AA by every tank.Raids are dropping down fast even hm with guilds using guard, sk, pal, brawler maintanks.None of them are complaining about hate issues. So it seems the problem is not the class but you celsium.Sorry the game doesnt revolve around going max dps and smashing buttons anymore. You need to learn how to equip and spec yourself. And most people do not have a major issue with hate.</p>

[threat111]

<p><cite>Gungo@Crushbone wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Bottom line is there is no hate issue. Every heroic instance was cleard the first week of the expansion w/o the new AA by every tank.Raids are dropping down fast even hm with guilds using guard, sk, pal, brawler maintanks.None of them are complaining about hate issues. So it seems the problem is not the class but you celsium.Sorry the game doesnt revolve around going max dps and smashing buttons anymore. You need to learn how to equip and spec yourself. And most people do not have a major issue with hate.</p></blockquote><p>You can troll me all you want, but you are wrong. </p><p>I had 290aa the first day.  So to assume that people did not have max aa the first week especially with the "please dont play rift bonus day" is amusing at best. </p><p>If you take the time to read you would see I never once complained about the dps output of my class. </p><p>Im sorry you are so bitter and your life is so empty you spend all your time reading forums and attempting to incite arguments with your opinions.</p><p>None of this changes the fact that I have been tanking end-game content since ROK.  I've been raiding at the highest levels for over 10 years.  I understand my class and the game mechanics around my role in a raiding enviorment.</p><p>Threat generation is an issue.  Abilities and mods need to be built into gear instead of supplementing something useful for them. </p>

[Wasuna]

<p><cite>Cesium@Nagafen wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Abilities and mods need to be built into gear instead of supplementing something useful for them. </p></blockquote><p>You know so much about the game but you still don't consider hate mod to be important and then you come here to complain about agro?</p><p>I'm confused.</p>

[Tenka]

they should have put an aggro mod on d stance a long time ago and pulled tanks out of the dps race. imo

[Wasuna]

<p>When it was 50% you could cap it easily with a few buffs so putting it on the defensive stance would have done nothing. People would have capped it with buffs and still been in offensive stance.</p><p>I'm OK with how things are. Spec yourself to have 30-40% Hat Mod solo and then get buffs and transfers. That's much more effective in pulling tanks out of the DPS race.</p>

[Rotate]

<p>...............</p>

[Britty]

<p>My biggest issue so far is we have yet another expansion where static taunts are useless. Who cares if you add 6k in static hate, one time until refresh. Barely blips the hate meter.</p><p>SoE I think its time to call it a day with static taunts and either rethink the entire strategy of what it is you want them to achieve (because I bet my dollar they are not) or just get rid of them and replace them with real hate generation tools across the board for all tanks.</p><p>Static taunts = completely, utterly, useless</p>

[Dott]

What I think they should have done with this move to make dps dps and tanks tank is they should have also brought back some of that trashed Fighter 2.0 overhaul to compensate our hate generating capabilities. Instead with lifting the hate mod cap it makes us look more towards getting all +hate adorns which means less individuality for tanks on the adornment choices. Also means some groups may prefer to always have a dirge, coercer and maybe a swash mix at all times. As of right now I've been a lifelong SK and always will be one. I currently still do all my tanking in off stance and still parse in the top 3 for most my groups. So I keep agro just fine from everyone no matter the mix even while room pulling. Where the problem comes in is for fights that I need to use my def stance I lose agro fast and easily. When that happens I don't really care either because I know that wiz, necro, etc that stole the agro will die in 2 seconds and I'll have my agro so just keep going like nothing happened. Let the dirge res em. To note as well, I only have the +8% hate mode from the str line on my SK as well. I have thought about hate adorns but still I decide against them in favour of +ability mod and +multi adorns. Yes I'm still in the mindset of going dps because in groups we can get away with that for 95% of the time if not more. Also raiding I'm not tanking most the time either, the guard is doing that, so I just play a dps or MA role with the odd OT tossed in. Raiding of this xpac may have changed that some but I haven't seen any raid of this xpac yet either to know so far.

[Wasuna]

<p><cite>Dott@Guk wrote:</cite></p><blockquote>What ........ far.</blockquote><p>So what your saying is your DPS, not a tank, and when a situation comes up where the group needs a tank then just say F'em to the real DPS classes becasue you can't be bothered to be a tank and they can just die when they try to do their jobs properly?</p><p>That's what I read. And, maybe it's a terribly sterotypical comment for me to make (and going to get me a good bit of flack I'm sure) but, if you didn't tell me you were a SK, I would have still guessed that your an SK 99 times out of a 100.</p>

[Dott]

<cite>Wasuna wrote:</cite><blockquote><p><cite>Dott@Guk wrote:</cite></p><blockquote>What ........ far.</blockquote><p>So what your saying is your DPS, not a tank, and when a situation comes up where the group needs a tank then just say F'em to the real DPS classes becasue you can't be bothered to be a tank and they can just die when they try to do their jobs properly?</p><p>That's what I read. And, maybe it's a terribly sterotypical comment for me to make (and going to get me a good bit of flack I'm sure) but, if you didn't tell me you were a SK, I would have still guessed that your an SK 99 times out of a 100.</p></blockquote> I'm saying I'm a tank, a tank that can actually dps but still a tank. I see that as my main roll and am still able to do a great job of tanking while still dps'n. What I pointed out was for the fights that I need to use def stance on my agro generation isn't as good and my group ends up pulling hate a lil more then they did before which before in off stance they rarely took agro unless it's something like a spell double ice comet crit crazy combo stuff. Hate, yes is a main concern for a tank but it's also a team effort. Everyone has a threat meter to see where they stand, dps classes do have some deagro abilities which yes are nearly as useless as taunts are for hate generating. There are even some dps'rs that have fun purposely trying to steal agro all the time. Bottom line is I can pull a whole room and still keep agro and live the vast majority of times. I only start to worry when I have a dps class that parses 40k+ consistently on single mobs since that starts to overpower my hate capabilities. Which for this xpac will be commonplace once everyone gets all the new DoV gear and start to triple/quad attack while us fighters don't get as much multi-attack on DoV gear from what it seems among other things. It's been long seen that for high hate generation you want high dps which it currently still seems that way. When I did the Fighter 2.0 on test I was all for it since heck, taunts were useful and we didn't have to rely on dps for alot of hate generation. Downside was our loss of dps wasn't picked up by a boost in dps classes. This xpac is a boost to dps classes and not much done to hate generation.

[Wasuna]

<p>Do the math on more Hate Mod and your 40 ability modifier adornments.</p><p>As you said, agro management is a team effort that EVERYBODY in the team needs deal with.</p>

[Manii Names]

<p>I can hold aggro like iron on my monk these days.  How do I do it?  In my primary tanking spec I have hmm... </p><p>5 AAs invested in my single target taunt</p><p>10 AAs invested in augmenting Dragonfire (Blue AoE) to enhance it's area, reuse, and taunt capacity.</p><p>2 AAs invested in Provoking Stance to add threat levels to my single and group taunts.</p><p>5 AAs invested in Defensive stance,</p><p>5 AAs invested in my Balanced stance, mostly because it also enhances Defensive stance again.</p><p>4 AAs invested in Peel (a rescue-clone) to enhance reuse speed.</p><p>3 AAs invested in buying two extra Rescue-clones (Sneering Assault and Hidden Openings).</p><p>20 AAs invested in Reuse speed.</p><p>8 AAs invested in Hostility, an AoE hate proc buff.</p><p>I walk around in defensive stance, and using Heroic gear (not even high end Heroic gear either) I parsed 27K on my last run thru Ascent (Inquis buffs, but no bards).  Nobody died on the run except in a freak accident due to the necro shooting the Epic x4's and my group Feign Death failing (yea yea M1 90% chance /sigh).  I do great damage, and also taunt like crazy.  </p><p>Spending 8 points on hate, and using offensive stance are not the answers.  Learn to generate hate and hold aggro and your groups will like you a lot better.</p><p>- Asphalt Jungle of Unrest</p>

[Raviel]

<p>because clearly any tank who cares about dps anymore is behind the curve... riiiight. the ignorance in this thread is overwhelming. enjoy tanking trash zones like ascent in a full defensive setup, btw.</p><p>also, dps is still better threat generation than anything else you can do.</p>

[Wasuna]

<p><cite>Raviel@Guk wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>because clearly any tank who cares about dps anymore is behind the curve... riiiight. the ignorance in this thread is overwhelming. enjoy tanking trash zones like ascent in a full defensive setup, btw.</p><p> also, dps is still better threat generation than anything else you can do.</p></blockquote><p>I tank Ascent in Offensive/DW thankyouverymuch. That being said, when I need to go defensive I can do so and still keep agro, at least in a heroic instance. Anybody that comes here and says that death is simply an agro adjustment for DPS classes becasue they are not giving up their +40 Ability Mod adornments are not tanks, they are idiots.</p><p>Now, did you actually have anything interesting or even marginally informative to post?</p>

[Raviel]

<p><cite>Wasuna wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Raviel@Guk wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>because clearly any tank who cares about dps anymore is behind the curve... riiiight. the ignorance in this thread is overwhelming. enjoy tanking trash zones like ascent in a full defensive setup, btw.</p><p> also, dps is still better threat generation than anything else you can do.</p></blockquote><p>I tank Ascent in Offensive/DW thankyouverymuch. That being said, when I need to go defensive I can do so and still keep agro, at least in a heroic instance. Anybody that comes here and says that death is simply an agro adjustment for DPS classes becasue they are not giving up their +40 Ability Mod adornments are not tanks, they are idiots.</p><p>Now, did you actually have anything interesting or even marginally informative to post?</p></blockquote><p>i'll go the route of marginally informative, since the only things that seem to interest you are sk bashing posts, and cries about how guardians are underpowered.</p><p>the +ability mod white adorn can only go on shoulders, chest, ear, charm, or finger. the +hate white adorn can only go on hands and wrists. in actuality, what most tanks are giving up is 690-885 health, a paltry loss for 11.4-15% hate gain.</p>

[Manii Names]

<p>Tanking Ascent in defensive stance I still put out 27-28K DPS with my monk, and the AA layout described above.  That's with Heroic gear, and not the best stuff available.  I'd say that's pretty good DPS from a tank, and I don't let my Wizards and Conjurors die.</p><p>What I use for adorns on my wrists are actually +Skills.  The additional bonus to hit makes a big difference in my effectiveness.  Testing on an epic training dummy my to-hit rate in defensive stance and nothing but autoattack went from 72% to 85%.</p><p>- Asphalt Jungle of Unrest</p>

[Ryai]

<p>Is fighter hate a problem right now? Not really. Doesn't change that the vast majority of fighter hate is generated through procs, straight dps, or transfer.</p><p>Are single target/encounter taunts useful? Not at all, unless you have them getting buffed to deal damage as well. They have become completely superfluous unless another outside effect is applied to them, or they have a collatoral effect already on them.</p><p>My monk uses his taunts only after I apply the positional hate buff to them if he needs to. My paladin uses the group one only because of the debuff. The whole point of the "taunt" has been completely lost. They needs to be 10x higher than what they are to actually mean something in the current system and even then they would be hard pressed to be relevant, since the system is at the point of only having positionals mean something. On a side note, scout/priest/mage detaunts are equally irrelavant in most situations unless they are also positional.</p><p>I would much rather see the all the fighter taunts become something similar to a short term retarget(1-2 secs, nothing game breaking.) At least then they might actually be useful in all game situations. Up the reuse if you need to in order to balance them.</p>

[Britty]

<p><cite>Cesium@Nagafen wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Right now high dps classes are generating much more "threat" then fighters can generate on thier own.  Obviously some of the fighter classes have tools to siphon hate from other people in thier groups IE amends, moderate ect. </p></blockquote><p>I'm assuming by moderate you mean the Guardian spell?</p><p>It's not a siphon. It's a hate reduction spell that can be cast on only 1 other person in the group.</p><p>Jus sayin</p>

[Britty]

<p><cite>Cyan@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Is fighter hate a problem right now? Not really. Doesn't change that the vast majority of fighter hate is generated through procs, straight dps, or transfer.</p><p>Are single target/encounter taunts useful? Not at all, unless you have them getting buffed to deal damage as well. They have become completely superfluous unless another outside effect is applied to them, or they have a collatoral effect already on them.</p><p>My monk uses his taunts only after I apply the positional hate buff to them if he needs to. My paladin uses the group one only because of the debuff. The whole point of the "taunt" has been completely lost. They needs to be 10x higher than what they are to actually mean something in the current system and even then they would be hard pressed to be relevant, since the system is at the point of only having positionals mean something. On a side note, scout/priest/mage detaunts are equally irrelavant in most situations unless they are also positional.</p><p>I would much rather see the all the fighter taunts become something similar to a short term retarget(1-2 secs, nothing game breaking.) At least then they might actually be useful in all game situations. Up the reuse if you need to in order to balance them.</p></blockquote><p>This +1</p><p>Even with high potency and crit,  I'm not sure what the point of static taunts are if they do nothing once youre in full combat. In essence the expectation should be if you constantly cycle static taunts you should see your threat slowly climb up bit by bit. Not on the first taunt, second, and maybe not the third, but you should be able to see the hate meter step up each time until you reach top of the hate list in conjuction with DPS</p><p>That just plain doesn't happen. It may blip by 1-2% if youre lucky. So in essense we have tools that we press that really, they do nothing but we all stick em on our hot bars. DPS and positional hates are king.</p><p>Static taunts need a complete and utter overhaul, it's not even funny.</p>

[wullailhuit]

<p><cite>Tenka@Nagafen wrote:</cite></p><blockquote>they should have put an aggro mod on d stance a long time ago and pulled tanks out of the dps race. imo</blockquote><p>They tried , but the outcry from tanks who wanted to DPS more meant they eventually had to shelve it.</p>

[Megavolt]

<p><cite>Wullail@Splitpaw wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Tenka@Nagafen wrote:</cite></p><blockquote>they should have put an aggro mod on d stance a long time ago and pulled tanks out of the dps race. imo</blockquote><p>They tried , but the outcry from tanks who wanted to DPS more meant they eventually had to shelve it.</p></blockquote><p>Actually they tried giving you the choice between having hate and surviveability or dps and pallies cried because they actually had to hit buttons to maintain agro so they shelved it. Feeds should have been gotten rid of a long time ago and abilities and taunts increased dramatically in the last 20 levels instead of the baby steps they were given.</p>

[Megavolt]

<p><cite>Cyan@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Is fighter hate a problem right now? Not really. Doesn't change that the vast majority of fighter hate is generated through procs, straight dps, or transfer.</p><p>Are single target/encounter taunts useful? Not at all, unless you have them getting buffed to deal damage as well. They have become completely superfluous unless another outside effect is applied to them, or they have a collatoral effect already on them.</p><p><strong><span style="color: #ff0000;">My monk uses his taunts only after I apply the positional hate buff to them</span></strong> if he needs to. My paladin uses the group one only because of the debuff. The whole point of the "taunt" has been completely lost. They needs to be 10x higher than what they are to actually mean something in the current system and even then they would be hard pressed to be relevant, since the system is at the point of <strong><span style="color: #ff0000;">only having positionals mean something</span></strong>. On a side note, scout/priest/mage detaunts are equally irrelavant in most situations unless they are also positional.</p><p><strong><span style="color: #ff0000;">I would much rather see the all the fighter taunts become something similar to a short term retarget</span></strong>(1-2 secs, nothing game breaking.) At least then they might actually be useful in all game situations. Up the reuse if you need to in order to balance them.</p></blockquote><p>To hell with positionals, feeds, and target locks, I want ways fighters can actualy gain their own hate. I personally believe defensive stance should half the damage of ca's and take that lost amount, double it and apply it as pure hate. Taunt bases should be quadrupled while in defensive. Stances should be 0 cast and able to change by a single click making stance dancing an actual technique instead of the 'set it and forget it' ways they are used now. I would personally love to see general blue stats taken off of fighter gear and replaced with 'stance focus' types of effects, that would allow not only basic skills to sway between defensive and agro generating to offensive, but the gear itself to change from defensive to offensive. Fighter offensive dps and surviveability should be the same as scout defensive dps and surviveability (and i mean bring fighters in line with scouts not make scouts as surviveable as fighters).</p>

[Landiin]

Tanks don't want to be just tanks any more, they want it all.

[Talathion]

<p>Lol cut the damage of my already low damage (1000-1500) CA's by half, then double the hate?</p><p>Makes no sense...1 point of damage = 1 point of threat, that would just make it the same amount of hate generated.</p>

[Soul_Dreamer]

<p>I'm happy with my threat generation this expansion, seems higher than last, you just need to change a couple of adorns. HP is no issue this expansion you get tons of it so I just swapped a couple of HP adorns for +Hate adorns (White ones) until I was just under 100% in a raid setting (I think I'm at about 40% solo). </p><p>As far as improving taunts goes, they just need to drastically increase the taunt value and then increase the re-use, so instead of 20k every 7 seconds (what I see my single target taunt hit for) it's 100k every 20. You then don't need to spam them and they're useful again.</p>

[Talathion]

<p>I think they need to increase the reuse of taunts by 10x, increase the hate by 10x and add a hate position.</p>

[Ryai]

<p><cite>Megavolt@Everfrost wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>To hell with positionals, feeds, and target locks, I want ways fighters can actualy gain their own hate. I personally believe defensive stance should half the damage of ca's and take that lost amount, double it and apply it as pure hate. Taunt bases should be quadrupled while in defensive. Stances should be 0 cast and able to change by a single click making stance dancing an actual technique instead of the 'set it and forget it' ways they are used now. I would personally love to see general blue stats taken off of fighter gear and replaced with 'stance focus' types of effects, that would allow not only basic skills to sway between defensive and agro generating to offensive, but the gear itself to change from defensive to offensive. Fighter offensive dps and surviveability should be the same as scout defensive dps and surviveability (and i mean bring fighters in line with scouts not make scouts as surviveable as fighters).</p></blockquote><p>As much as people might want this it won't ever happen. There would be far too much outcry. Personally, I think its too game-changing of an approach at this point anyways. Fighters are actually getting close to a decent balance point relative to each other at least for once. The last thing we need is fighter revamp 3.0.</p><p>Tweaks are needed. Specifically, single and group taunts ca's are useless in their current form. Its something that <strong>needs</strong> to be addressed. An entire archetype shouldn't have a set of useless skills, period.</p>

[Ryai]

<p>To amend that further, its not just fighters. Its every class that ever wants a detaunt as well. Those skills without positionals are equally broken. What use is a 6k base detaunt when plaguebringer does 30k base? Something is wrong there.</p>

[Britty]

<p><cite>Soul_Dreamer wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>As far as improving taunts goes, they just need to drastically increase the taunt value and then increase the re-use, so instead of 20k every 7 seconds (what I see my single target taunt hit for) it's 100k every 20. You then don't need to spam them and they're useful again.</p></blockquote><p>Only partly agree. Static taunts need a massive boost but reuse timers should remain the same, else youre just going to see the effect completely erode and leech away by the time a 20 second refresh is completed. How much damage can you do in 20 seconds. I bet its a *whole lot* more than 100k. That's only 5k / sec.</p><p>Static taunts (and detaunts) just need serious attention, pretty much right away. I find it incredulous that DPS has been boosted across the board yet this part of the game has been completely neglected to the point of utter uselessness.</p>

[Bruener]

<p><cite>Cyan@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Megavolt@Everfrost wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>To hell with positionals, feeds, and target locks, I want ways fighters can actualy gain their own hate. I personally believe defensive stance should half the damage of ca's and take that lost amount, double it and apply it as pure hate. Taunt bases should be quadrupled while in defensive. Stances should be 0 cast and able to change by a single click making stance dancing an actual technique instead of the 'set it and forget it' ways they are used now. I would personally love to see general blue stats taken off of fighter gear and replaced with 'stance focus' types of effects, that would allow not only basic skills to sway between defensive and agro generating to offensive, but the gear itself to change from defensive to offensive. Fighter offensive dps and surviveability should be the same as scout defensive dps and surviveability (and i mean bring fighters in line with scouts not make scouts as surviveable as fighters).</p></blockquote><p>As much as people might want this it won't ever happen. There would be far too much outcry. Personally, I think its too game-changing of an approach at this point anyways. Fighters are actually getting close to a decent balance point relative to each other at least for once. The last thing we need is fighter revamp 3.0.</p><p>Tweaks are needed. Specifically, single and group taunts ca's are useless in their current form. Its something that <strong>needs</strong> to be addressed. An entire archetype shouldn't have a set of useless skills, period.</p></blockquote><p>Quite the skewed vision there.  SF was balanced for Fighters.  DoV took some big steps away from that hence some pretty decent changes coming to at least half the Fighters.</p><p>As to hate generation.  SOE needs to start by removing hate siphons and transfers from the game.  They create too much of a have/have-not issue constantly with hate while at the same time forcing way too much of a fixed type group set up to have decent hate.  Than they need to increase the taunt amounts by at least 3x what they currently are.  Ideally Hate from taunts should be equal to the DPS that tanks can put out.  This means with Hate+DPS while working at it would get real close to what the DPS amount of a T1 DPS is putting out.  Right now Taunts are only doing probably a 1/3 of what can be done DPS wise.  Than increase Detaunt amount by 3x and a T1 using active Detaunts will be below a Tank actively using Taunts in hate.</p>

[jester0770]

<p>I have heard from my raid MT guardian that in raids his agro is solid, but in instances where the mob isn't able to hit him he has more issues with agro because he no longer procs the hate from them hitting him.  He actually has to swap gear so he takes a little more dmg depending on the lvl of the mobs we are fighting.  He does normally un with either a coercer or a dirge on instances, but normally the only time he loses agro is when a mob mem wipes.  We all know that almost any class can steal agro once in awhile it all depends on grp make up and what happens... but I do agree that tanks def stance should add a small "taunt" to each ca.  It wouldn't have to be huge but it would help all tanks no matter what the grp set up was, and since it would be on the def stance it would mean that they would lose some of there dps, but it would have to be the trade off for the extra agro control.</p>

[Talathion]

<p><cite>jester0770 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I have heard from my raid MT guardian that in raids his agro is solid, but in instances where the mob isn't able to hit him he has more issues with agro because he no longer procs the hate from them hitting him.  He actually has to swap gear so he takes a little more dmg depending on the lvl of the mobs we are fighting.  He does normally un with either a coercer or a dirge on instances, but normally the only time he loses agro is when a mob mem wipes.  We all know that almost any class can steal agro once in awhile it all depends on grp make up and what happens... but I do agree that tanks def stance should add a small "taunt" to each ca.  It wouldn't have to be huge but it would help all tanks no matter what the grp set up was, and since it would be on the def stance it would mean that they would lose some of there dps, but it would have to be the trade off for the extra agro control.</p></blockquote><p>Some classes "MUST" tank in Offensive Stance. (IE Berserker, Since Our Stance is Tied to one of our Best Moves, if we lose that one move, our aggro is cut by about 10%).</p><p>If we lose that accuracy/proc we gain in it, then we are screwed.</p><p>The Best way to get our Aggro Back on par with other tanks are 2 things...</p><p>Strikethrough.</p><p>Multi Attack.</p>

[Silzin]

<p><cite>Failathion@Nagafen wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Some classes "MUST" tank in Offensive Stance. (IE Berserker, Since Our Stance is Tied to one of our Best Moves, if we lose that one move, our aggro is cut by about 10%).</p><p>If we lose that accuracy/proc we gain in it, then we are screwed.</p><p>The Best way to get our Aggro Back on par with other tanks are 2 things...</p><p>Strikethrough.</p><p>Multi Attack.</p></blockquote><p>So you would prefer having more DPS for more agro, then fixing the tools you have to be able to generate the hate you need?</p>

[Talathion]

<p><cite>Silzin wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Failathion@Nagafen wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Some classes "MUST" tank in Offensive Stance. (IE Berserker, Since Our Stance is Tied to one of our Best Moves, if we lose that one move, our aggro is cut by about 10%).</p><p>If we lose that accuracy/proc we gain in it, then we are screwed.</p><p>The Best way to get our Aggro Back on par with other tanks are 2 things...</p><p>Strikethrough.</p><p>Multi Attack.</p></blockquote><p>So you would prefer having more DPS for more agro, then fixing the tools you have to be able to generate the hate you need?</p></blockquote><p>What Tools?</p><p>I don't have any Amends(Pally), No hate transfer (Guard/SK/Pally), No Hate Reducers (Guard), no hate siphons (SK/Pally).</p><p>I would prefere my attacks to actually hit the mob, my hitrates are CRAP <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" /></p><p>My Taunts do about... 1/30 of my hate Generation, most of the time I do not use them with SOE would remove them and add a Combat Art instead, maybe a High Threat Sword Strike and a High Threat Sword Sweep that can't be avoided.</p>

[Bruener]

<p><cite>Failathion@Nagafen wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>What Tools?</p><p>I don't have any Amends(Pally), No hate transfer (Guard/<span style="text-decoration: line-through;">SK</span>/Pally), No Hate Reducers (Guard), no hate siphons (<span style="text-decoration: line-through;">SK</span>/Pally/<span style="color: #ff0000;">Guard</span>).</p><p>I would prefere my attacks to actually hit the mob, my hitrates are CRAP <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" /></p></blockquote><p>Fixed the bad info there for ya.</p>

[Talathion]

<p><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Failathion@Nagafen wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>What Tools?</p><p>I don't have any Amends(Pally), No hate transfer (Guard/<span style="text-decoration: line-through;">SK</span>/Pally), No HUGE Hate Reducers (Group25%, Target50%(Guard), no hate siphons (<span style="text-decoration: line-through;">SK</span>/Pally/<span style="color: #ff0000;">Guard</span>).</p><p>I would prefere my attacks to actually hit the mob, my hitrates are CRAP <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" /></p></blockquote><p>Fixed the bad info there for ya.</p></blockquote><p>My Bad, I forgot SKs were on the same sinking ship ATM LOL</p>

[BChizzle]

<p>I am having a real hard time not dying of laughter as your guys cry about SK needing to be buffed.</p>

[Bruener]

<p><cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I am having a real hard time not dying of laughter as your guys cry about SK needing to be buffed.</p></blockquote><p>Stop trying so hard, maybe?</p>

[Soul_Dreamer]

<p>TBH, my hate is fine, our OT SK's hate is fine, our Bruisers hate is fine.</p><p>With regard to taunts, they aren't really useful, I still use them because I can fit a taunt and 3 CA's between auto attack, or just 3 CA's (Duel weild), 4 won't fit so it's no trouble to use them each time they're up really. They could do with being changed so they're more substantial and you don't have to spam them. My ST taunt is up every 8 seconds or so. Just increase the base taunt value by a crap load and up the recast to a base of 20 seconds as I said before. </p><p>As for SK's, I just think so many of them enjoyed being so OP for so long they now come to expect it and can't stand being on an even footing with other tanks now. 5 of the tanks are relatively well balanced, Berzerkers just need a little love defensively now Adrenalin has been neutered and some of their CA's fixing to actually do something. The main thing I'd like to see is strikethrough immunity on abilities that are meant to avoid 100% of melee damage, they're more like 70% avoids right now.</p>

[OrcSlayer96]

<p><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Failathion@Nagafen wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>What Tools?</p><p>I don't have any Amends(Pally), No hate transfer (<span style="text-decoration: line-through;">Guard</span>/<span style="text-decoration: line-through;">SK</span>/<span style="text-decoration: line-through;">Pally</span>Monk/Bruiser), No Hate Reducers (Guard), no hate siphons (<span style="text-decoration: line-through;">SK</span>/Pally/<span style="color: #ff0000;">Guard</span>).</p><p>I would prefere my attacks to actually hit the mob, my hitrates are CRAP <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" /></p></blockquote><p>Fixed the bad info there for ya.</p></blockquote><p>Fixed the bad info for ya.  Hate transfer would be if the strikethrued classes above had a AA line or native ability that allowed them to transfer a portion of their hate to a target(like assassin or swashbuckler for example).  Hate siphons are where a fighter has another group member the target of a spell they cast either permament(amends or guardian one) or temporary(sigil) that then siphons the hate to the fighter that cast the spell.  Instead of asking to nerf other fighters, maybe you should ask to have your lifetaps increased and castable on the run plus increase the threat value of your taunts on the sk.  IMO ALL fighters that are tanking non trash should be in a defensive stance that grants them sta bonus and if the berserker one has berserk tied only to the offense it needs to be changed.  Any info on the berserker changes for lu 60 btw?</p>

[Britty]

<p><cite>Soul_Dreamer wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p> Just increase the base taunt value by a crap load and up the recast to a base of 20 seconds as I said before. </p></blockquote><p>And as I pointed out also, this won't work. Reuse should remain as is. Taunt value should be grossly increased.</p>

[BChizzle]

<p>This thread is so full of misinformation.  I mean really, monks have had a hate transfer since eof.  I love how you guys talk about other classes when you don't really have a clue what those classes have.</p>

[Prestissimo]

<p><cite>Megavolt@Everfrost wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Wullail@Splitpaw wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>They tried , but the outcry from tanks who wanted to DPS more meant they eventually had to shelve it.</p></blockquote><p><span style="text-decoration: underline;"><strong>Actually they tried giving you the choice between having hate and surviveability or dps and pallies cried because they actually had to hit buttons to maintain agro so they shelved it.</strong></span> Feeds should have been gotten rid of a long time ago and abilities and taunts increased dramatically in the last 20 levels instead of the baby steps they were given.</p></blockquote><p>That is so absolutely beyond wrong it's not even funny. Every person that reads that and gives it a second thought will lose IQ points.</p><p>They gave you the choice of not functioning when real dpsers were present, or really not even remotely functioning when real dpsers were present. The problems were for <span style="text-decoration: underline;">ALL</span> tanks, not just the paladins. Every tank after those fighter changes was incapable of keeping hate off of the pure dps classes unless the dpsers put on a bunch of hate reduction, throttled their dps, the group had proper buffs, and even then it was still iffy. The paladins were the most P.O.ed because in addition to the global fighter nerf you also threw in the amends replacement which was a temporary taunt that sucked up concentration even while not active, had short range, got resisted pretty much twice to three times it's rated value, was combat art based so if it did resist you were even more hosed with a full reuse timer where as almost all other taunts are spell based which at least makes resists less painful, it was a copy paste of rescue with a little bit more threat on a 40 second recast, and severely nerfed the tar out of the paladins leaving them unable to do their job to any level of reason.</p><p>For the 40 GUs prior to that point paladins were nerfed to compensate for the fact that amends gave them their hate. They had heals for lore purpose, but they were weaker because they could heal, and amends allowed them to heal without crippling their hate. Amends allowed paladins to maintain hate even with gimpy combat arts that dealt less damage. Amends allowed paladins to generate steady hate which meant less need for rescues and snaps so they got fewer of them. When amends was taken out of the roster, they did not adjust any of those things that were reduced purely for the fact that amends existed.</p><p>It's about the same as "Lets take away all of the utility classes regens, temp buffs, and boosts to skills/abilities. They have maintained buffs and can dps enough to fill in the difference. If they say they can't dps enough, tell them to spam moar buttunz fastah! because that is obviously their problem."</p><p>I honestly think the reason the proposed nerf was pushed was because someone got butt hurt over a parse where they got beaten by a paladin, or because someone went off and whined about a situation where people that knew what they were doing used what they had. Anyone that is even the slightest bit educated about hate transfers realizes just how non-epic amends is in a real scenario.</p><p>Also, if you played a paladin, you would realize just how much of a blessing <span style="text-decoration: underline;"><strong>AND</strong></span> curse amends is for more than just the reasons I stated. You also would realize that most every paladin would like to get rid of amends ONLY if the rest of the class was put at an even level to the other tanks in order to negate what was taken away simply because we have that ability.</p><p>BTW, just for S***s & Giggles, add up the threat value of any fighter of your choice, and try to figure out what static values would be necessary to keep hate off of a dps class doing 60k dps (about 130k if you're allowing potency or taking numbers from current fighters). Of course, you'd need to remember that they wanted to take out all siphons that belonged to the paladins but were cool with all the others because thats totally unbiased and clearly not malicious towards the one class, and also removed hate generation in the offensive stance, not to mention wanted to make sure the fighter had no offensive stats on them.  So basically take multi attack out, dps mod out, procs out, etc. Just do the math on that one and see what you come up with. Then compare that with the 4k-7k max threat values that they gave fighters for GU51.</p>