SOE: 1 Month and 1 Week Till Destiny of Velious is supposed to be released.

[Metaphysix]

<p>And we still have no new information, or anything.</p><p>After coming back into playing the game lately (Double XP suckers me in everytime), I can say that I am thoroughly disappointed in SOE's PR and Marketing division.</p><p>So what's really going on?</p><p>Is it that SOE is in hot water and isn't really sure if they'll release the new expansion? Perhaps the internal testing's going badly? Has the company just given up on trying to revitalize the game? Maybe even a free expansion to make up for the lack of content over the last few expansions, that people have griped about lately?</p><p>Are we waiting to see how DCUO does in sales before any game decisions get made?</p><p>Or is it really something as insulting to the playerbase as what a rep wrote in this forum; that advertising over the holiday was pointless, because of another larger game was doing so for its new expansion... and that EQ2 would also advertise in those areas?</p><p>What are you hiding from us? And if it's nothing and my assumptions fall under the tinfoil hat club... why are you still not trying to sell people on Velious?</p>

[Iskandar]

<p>Blizzard's advertising blitz certainly didn't stop Sony's own FreeRealms and Star Wars Adventures from firing off commercials at the top and bottom of every hour on Nick Toons and The Hub every day in December. It also didn't stop LotRO from firing off commercials about once an hour on Cartoon Network and SyFy, as well as a few on BBC America and FX. DDO even had a couple of shots in there, as did a few of the F2P games like Wizards 101. And Trion's Rift Beta promotions were generating a lot more talk online than Blizzard's expansion.</p><p>But, to be fair, I hear EQ2 had some ads in a few gamer magazines. How many gamers who go out of their way to read a niche magazine devoted to gaming news and reviews will have either not heard of EQ2 or not already played EQ2? I've said it before about "preaching to the choir"... c'mon guys, pick a target market that's not already made up its mind!</p><p>SOE is on the right track with their FreeRealms and Star Wars ad campaigns -- targetting the kids and adults who watch cartoons and anime, people who may not necessarily be die-hard gamers but are still interested in something fun to play. Now if they'd just use that same approach when marketing EQ2....</p>

[Metaphysix]

<p><cite>Iskandar wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Blizzard's advertising blitz certainly didn't stop Sony's own FreeRealms and Star Wars Adventures from firing off commercials at the top and bottom of every hour on Nick Toons and The Hub every day in December. It also didn't stop LotRO from firing off commercials about once an hour on Cartoon Network and SyFy, as well as a few on BBC America and FX. DDO even had a couple of shots in there, as did a few of the F2P games like Wizards 101. And Trion's Rift Beta promotions were generating a lot more talk online than Blizzard's expansion.</p><p>But, to be fair, I hear EQ2 had some ads in a few gamer magazines. How many gamers who go out of their way to read a niche magazine devoted to gaming news and reviews will have either not heard of EQ2 or not already played EQ2? I've said it before about "preaching to the choir"... c'mon guys, pick a target market that's not already made up its mind!</p><p>SOE is on the right track with their FreeRealms and Star Wars ad campaigns -- targetting the kids and adults who watch cartoons and anime, people who may not necessarily be die-hard gamers but are still interested in something fun to play. Now if they'd just use that same approach when marketing EQ2....</p></blockquote><p>Believe it or not, I have subscriptions to every major US based PC/MMO gaming mag.</p><p>I'd love to know which one they were in, if only to feel a little more at ease.</p><p>Free Realms and Star Wars did indeed get advertising. My wife mentioned it to me a few days back. That's what initially stirred my concern.</p><p>I'm not an expert analyst here, but I'm definitely an old hand at the MMO market now. I've been playing and testing online games on and off for over a decade now and this just doesn't add up somewhere.</p><p>When there's next to no anticipation from a company about to release an expansion to an existing product, that already has a release date, content summary online, et al... there's something definitely wrong.</p>

[Morghus]

<p>How can you people not realize that SOE no longer really wants to give EQ2 "premier new game" treatment? EQ2 is old, it isnt getting any new people in, on almost all websites that show their expansion trailers, you can see by peoples' comments that it is a laughing stock. Why waste money trying to advertise or support it, when it makes decent enough money on its own so that you can spend the money it makes to fund your other projects?</p><p>It is my understanding that SOE isn't really grouped into different sections like an EQ2 team, or a SWG team or w/e. Pretty sure they all share office space with each other, and even trade around their devs. The guy we had working on shader 3.0? He is working on a different SOE game right now from what I hear, and won't be back until he is done with that other game.</p>

[Darkor]

<p><cite>Morghus wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>How can you people not realize that SOE no longer really wants to give EQ2 "premier new game" treatment? EQ2 is old, it isnt getting any new people in, on almost all websites that show their expansion trailers, you can see by peoples' comments that it is a laughing stock. Why waste money trying to advertise or support it, when it makes decent enough money on its own so that you can spend the money it makes to fund your other projects?</p><p>It is my understanding that SOE isn't really grouped into different sections like an EQ2 team, or a SWG team or w/e. Pretty sure they all share office space with each other, and even trade around their devs. The guy we had working on shader 3.0? He is working on a different SOE game right now from what I hear, and won't be back until he is done with that other game.</p></blockquote><p>Its SoE's last chance. If velious fails i am done with the Everquest world aswell as Sony Online Entertainment. That means 1 station access account, 2 regular accounts aswell as plenty extra-dollars for using services like character transfers etc.</p><p>This post is not meant as a threat, its just a fair warning. I am putting all my money on this expansion pack.</p>

[kcirrot]

<p><cite>Ajjantis@Nagafen wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Morghus wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>How can you people not realize that SOE no longer really wants to give EQ2 "premier new game" treatment? EQ2 is old, it isnt getting any new people in, on almost all websites that show their expansion trailers, you can see by peoples' comments that it is a laughing stock. Why waste money trying to advertise or support it, when it makes decent enough money on its own so that you can spend the money it makes to fund your other projects?</p><p>It is my understanding that SOE isn't really grouped into different sections like an EQ2 team, or a SWG team or w/e. Pretty sure they all share office space with each other, and even trade around their devs. The guy we had working on shader 3.0? He is working on a different SOE game right now from what I hear, and won't be back until he is done with that other game.</p></blockquote><p>Its SoE's last chance. If velious fails i am done with the Everquest world aswell as Sony Online Entertainment. That means 1 station access account, 2 regular accounts aswell as plenty extra-dollars for using services like character transfers etc.</p><p>This post is not meant as a threat, its just a fair warning. I am putting all my money on this expansion pack.</p></blockquote><p>Despite being very positive about the game as a whole, I agree with this stance.  Velious needs to be a game-changer for me.  There are a number of MMOs coming out this year that I want to play and it's harder to justify EQ2 in my game mix.  I'm not angry about anything in particular, I'm just getting to a point where the game doesn't offer enough enjoyment for $15 a month.</p>

[Rainmare]

<p>I'm in the other camp with this I think....there's not one game out there coming that appeals to me. not 1. I hate the DC comics...so not interested in a dc mmo...guildwars and Rift supposedly have built in PvP no matter your prefeance...so no there too. too many mmos are seemling tryin gto do RvsR and Faction vs faction PVP stuff to get FPS people to play or something. So I'll stick here prolly till EqNext...unless they come up with something that is decent that has no pvp in it.</p>

[Carpediem]

<p>The expansion isn't showing up at best buy, amazon or gamestop yet. Guessing they aren't sure if they will be able to keep that Feb 8th release date and haven't announced anything yet because of that.</p>

[Kigneer]

<p><cite>Metaphysix wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Is it that SOE is in hot water and isn't really sure if they'll release the new expansion? Perhaps the internal testing's going badly? Has the company just given up on trying to revitalize the game?</p></blockquote><p>Maybe they're watching the fireworks with Blizzard and Cata?</p><p>Cata is bad, no lipstick on that pig is going make it look better.</p>

[Banditman]

<p><cite>Rainmare@Oasis wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>. . . and Rift supposedly have built in PvP no matter your prefeance. . .</p></blockquote><p>Not true.</p><p>If you attack another player, yes, you get flagged for PvP.  If you do not attack another player, you are not flagged and cannot be attacked.</p>

[Wingrider01]

<p><cite>Carpediem@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>The expansion isn't showing up at best buy, amazon or gamestop yet. Guessing they aren't sure if they will be able to keep that Feb 8th release date and haven't announced anything yet because of that.</p></blockquote><p>Or logically it will be 100 percent digital download with no retail box</p>

[Carpediem]

<p><cite>Wingrider01 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Carpediem@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>The expansion isn't showing up at best buy, amazon or gamestop yet. Guessing they aren't sure if they will be able to keep that Feb 8th release date and haven't announced anything yet because of that.</p></blockquote><p>Or logically it will be 100 percent digital download with no retail box</p></blockquote><p>I really hope not. That would be foolish on their part.</p>

[Iskandar]

<p><cite>Carpediem@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote>I really hope not. That would be foolish on their part.</blockquote><p>Unfortunately, it really depends on how well the boxes have sold in the past when compared to digital downloads... if the boxes account for only a small percentage of sales, they could save quite a bit by going full digital.</p><p>Design, printing and production of the boxes and manuals, printing and burning of the CDs, and the final packing and distribution process are all cut from the equation with digital downloads -- and all that can tally up fast, especially if they outsource much of the process to 3rd party vendors. And if those boxes just sit unsold in a warehouse or on a store shelf, that's basically just wasted production and cost.</p><p>I wonder what percentage of the SF boxes they produced went unsold, or the TSO boxes... that unsold product would most likely just be destroyed, which only adds to both the expense (shipping to an incinerator or recyling facility) and the loss (writing off the production costs for those units and then paying for their destruction). With digital downloads there's never any product lost, since it's all digital.</p><p>Considering the massive advertising campaign and major media blitz underway (/sarcasm off) for what was once touted as their flagship product, I'd really not be surprised if this is a digital-only expansion release.</p>

[Tyrus Dracofire]

<p>i know why they (SOE) isnt presenting pre-order, they have been taken over by Atari market team, the worst folks, most hated in MMO-RPG market.</p><p>Atari was a reason they killed Neverwinter Nights series. Hasbro suing them for license rights with Crypt Studio.</p><p>so maybe SOE got stuck with no distributors or game editors while Atari is still in hot water in courts that might delay pre-orders.</p><p>that just my opinion, just making wild theory, well, maybe my jokes doesnt seem funny now.</p>

[Metaphysix]

<p><cite>Tyrus@Butcherblock wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>i know why they (SOE) isnt presenting pre-order, they have been taken over by Atari market team, the worst folks, most hated in MMO-RPG market.</p><p>Atari was a reason they killed Neverwinter Nights series. Hasbro suing them for license rights with Crypt Studio.</p><p>so maybe SOE got stuck with no distributors or game editors while Atari is still in hot water in courts that might delay pre-orders.</p><p>that just my opinion, just making wild theory, well, maybe my jokes doesnt seem funny now.</p></blockquote><p>Wow. That sure was a wild theory.</p><p>Neverwinter's coming out this year, by the way.</p><p>Hasbro Sues Atari Link For Those Interested: <a href="http://kotaku.com/5428864/hasbro-sues-atari-over-dd-license-atari-responds">http://kotaku.com/5428864/hasbro-su...-atari-responds</a></p>

[Wingrider01]

<p><cite>Carpediem@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Wingrider01 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Carpediem@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>The expansion isn't showing up at best buy, amazon or gamestop yet. Guessing they aren't sure if they will be able to keep that Feb 8th release date and haven't announced anything yet because of that.</p></blockquote><p>Or logically it will be 100 percent digital download with no retail box</p></blockquote><p>I really hope not. That would be foolish on their part.</p></blockquote><p>actually no it would not be. Not having to worry if the corporate buyers of the brick and mortar stores even want to carry the product on the end cap space in the retail outlets. There would be no issues of overseas distribution with the buyers of the outlets over there.</p><p>Logon, pay with credit card or station cash, account is flagged and ready to download. If I recall correctly the eq1 exapsnion was digital only - even amazon purchase was a download and not a physical box.</p>

[Carpediem]

<p>The problem with that is, with no real advertising how are they going to get new players? A lot of people loved Velious in EQ1 and could walk by the PC games section of Best Buy or Gamestop and see the box.</p><p>With digital download only, it will only be people that are already playing, or word of mouth (which isn't much these days).</p>

[Hecula]

<p>Based on the fiasco of international distribution that was SF and the general outcry and lost subs that created, my guess is this expansion will be a completely digital release. I'm still not convinced we'll get a release in Feb. I see it easily being pushed back to May or June.</p>

[Miss_Jackie]

<p><cite>Iskandar wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Blizzard's advertising blitz certainly didn't stop Sony's own FreeRealms and Star Wars Adventures from firing off commercials at the top and bottom of every hour on Nick Toons and The Hub every day in December. It also didn't stop LotRO from firing off commercials about once an hour on Cartoon Network and SyFy, as well as a few on BBC America and FX. DDO even had a couple of shots in there, as did a few of the F2P games like Wizards 101. And Trion's Rift Beta promotions were generating a lot more talk online than Blizzard's expansion.</p><p>But, to be fair, I hear EQ2 had some ads in a few gamer magazines. How many gamers who go out of their way to read a niche magazine devoted to gaming news and reviews will have either not heard of EQ2 or not already played EQ2? I've said it before about "preaching to the choir"... c'mon guys, pick a target market that's not already made up its mind!</p><p>SOE is on the right track with their FreeRealms and Star Wars ad campaigns -- targetting the kids and adults who watch cartoons and anime, people who may not necessarily be die-hard gamers but are still interested in something fun to play. Now if they'd just use that same approach when marketing EQ2....</p></blockquote><p>You know.. I saw an advert for EQ2X in Mad Magazine. Where's the advert for EQ2? Or even EQ1?</p>

[Vlahkmaak]

<p><cite>Morghus wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>How can you people not realize that SOE no longer really wants to give EQ2 "premier new game" treatment? EQ2 is old, it isnt getting any new people in, on almost all websites that show their expansion trailers, you can see by peoples' comments that it is a laughing stock. Why waste money trying to advertise or support it, when it makes decent enough money on its own so that you can spend the money it makes to fund your other projects?</p><p>It is my understanding that SOE isn't really grouped into different sections like an EQ2 team, or a SWG team or w/e. Pretty sure they all share office space with each other, and even trade around their devs. The guy we had working on shader 3.0? He is working on a different SOE game right now from what I hear, and won't be back until he is done with that other game.</p></blockquote><p>Why is it a laughing stock.  EQ2 is the best mmo out there atm.  Its more enjoyable and immersive than Aion, Warhammer, WoW, and Conan.  Has a much more solid (if not tedious) crafting experience.  I'd have to say I prefered crafting the way it was at release - crafters having to work together etc., and sub combines for sub combines.  If EQNext is targeted to be a more difficult, large scale, game along the eq1 line - which is wholely an asumption on my part - they should revisit the old crafting process.  I doubt it will be though to many current games are going the way of wow. </p>

[NrthnStar5]

<p>I am amazed that beta is supposed to start tomorrow and we still have such limited information. We don't have an xpac mini site, no new screens, no new info whatsoever. It's almost like going into beta blind... I'm starting to wonder if the release date is going to get pushed back or something.</p><p>SOE, please start treating us like a AAA MMO again. please and thank you =-)</p>

[SgtPmpkn]

<p>I was hoping for an indication that Beta invites have at least been sent out, or in the process of being sent out.  As been said there has been no information on the expac and very little on the Beta process.  A little communication or information will go a long way with this games' population in the year of a good number of new titles coming out.</p>

[Kigneer]

<p><cite>Metaphysix wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Neverwinter's coming out this year, by the way.</p></blockquote><p>Oh, god no.</p><p>That series was so bug filled (and godawful) I just tossed the game never looking back.</p>

[Juull]

<p>The Beta information I read said that they would begin processing applications when they returned from the holidays on Monday, 1/3, and would start issuing invitations on Wednesday, 1/4.  Since it's Tuesday, I have high hopes for tomorrow (but not before noon my time, mind you).</p><p>That said, add me to the camp of people who are starting to get anxious.  Just tell me how I will be able to get the expansion and what it is going to cost.  I (like a lot of other people, even ones who have broadband internet and nice computers) have a fairly tight budget for entertainment these days, and I want to PLAN for the expense, dangit.</p>

[Kigneer]

<p><cite>Carpediem@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>The problem with that is, with no real advertising how are they going to get new players?</p></blockquote><p>Personally, I don't think SoE wants new players, and content with a niche market.</p><p>Having a huge game gives them a WoW population. SoE never has been a community feedback type publisher (it's trying, but you get the feeling if they could just program and never speak to the public -- like EA does it -- they would in a heartbeat). So having raging 15 year-old nerds on their hands would be a disaster, and too often they're not into lore but the next XBox "gogogo" DPS release. It would ruin the game from the ground up, as EQ2 isn't that type of game. It's one of the last "classic" style MMOs, and the only one with the content to go with it. It's a niche game, with it's own culture and own style (which is why we love EQ2).</p><p>Another factor to is the culture of this game as it is now. I agree EQ2 needs new blood, as the community is getting to be dinosaurs (I mean it). Too set in their ways, fighting every step of the way with SoE to ridiculous levels at times, that I wouldn't blame SoE to go on strike. I was here in TSO and all the bickering (even stalked ingame by a guy who took what I said on the forums personally), and it's the main reason why I quit the game. Don't know about others, but they too could've gotten the same treatment and left. The community drives others out, closes the door and ruminates. That's not a healthy environment for new players (which I was). I was pushed out and went to play a game most similiar to EQ2. Worked my way upto the top from level 1, from a newbie to a hardcore raider in 1 year. But I had help. I had advice. I had support. Not only for my class, websites rich in content to help me learn more about my role. I never got that level of help as a new player in EQ2. I love the game alot, but that experience soured me to the community itself.</p><p>So I come back because I wanted something I remember that isn't radically changed (like Cata did to WoW). I'm happy to see a world that is familiar, to have appearance slots/housing and actual guild halls/ and harvesting not as a secondary profession (god I even missed the music...EQ2 even has a theme). Things I never forgot in WoW and missed.</p><p>Been "homesick" and stuck between two games. One has the content and things I love, and the another I can play to end-game without the roadblocks EQ2 has.</p><p>Don't believe I'm the only one. You will meet a lot of EQ players in WoW, and you can sense they miss it too. But their friends and family (and my own family is also in WoW) are there, and it's hard playing alone...especially in a community that treats new players like pariahs.</p><p>Like I've said two years ago, EQ2 is not friendly to new players. And my treatment is an excellent example how and why people don't stay in EQ2. The community doesn't accept them and even tells them to kiss off.</p><p>So maybe SoE understands this, and keeps the game a niche market for niche players who like it just like it is, until it's down to 1000 players to finally turn off the lights.</p>

[Sigtyr]

<p><cite>Kigneer wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Like I've said two years ago, EQ2 is not friendly to new players. And my treatment is an excellent example how and why people don't stay in EQ2. The community doesn't accept them and even tells them to kiss off.</p></blockquote><p>Well SOE changed this with EQ2EX and I believe that EQ2 Lives inability to retain new players was a big influence in the decision to launch EX, probably not as big as the opportunities of the new payment model but important and Smokejumper has talked about attracting and KEEPING new players with EX. And as I understand EX is full of new players having a blast so it must have worked out well</p><p>As I see it there are good reasons to assume that there has been a shift in development away from the "cutting edge" customers towads making a more challenging game for "general customers" as the decisions to "dumb down" content for regular players while keeping the advanced game on the  same difficulity (or higher as in TSO) obviously only divided the playerbase even more. There is an excellent summary on Eq 2 wire of what Smokejumper have written on these topics in various threads on these forums on</p><p><a href="http://eq2wire.com/2010/12/04/looking-beyond-velious/#more-6418" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">http://eq2wire.com/2010/12/04/looki...ious/#more-6418</a></p><p>I am exited in Velious and I hope it will be great but the marketing push (if any) will be for EQ2EX. EQ2 Live has not been welcoming to new player in a long time (well maybe on the smaller servers, AB went downhill a lot in 2010).</p>

[Kitsi]

<p><cite>Miss_Jackie wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Iskandar wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Blizzard's advertising blitz certainly didn't stop Sony's own FreeRealms and Star Wars Adventures from firing off commercials at the top and bottom of every hour on Nick Toons and The Hub every day in December. It also didn't stop LotRO from firing off commercials about once an hour on Cartoon Network and SyFy, as well as a few on BBC America and FX. DDO even had a couple of shots in there, as did a few of the F2P games like Wizards 101. And Trion's Rift Beta promotions were generating a lot more talk online than Blizzard's expansion.</p><p>But, to be fair, I hear EQ2 had some ads in a few gamer magazines. How many gamers who go out of their way to read a niche magazine devoted to gaming news and reviews will have either not heard of EQ2 or not already played EQ2? I've said it before about "preaching to the choir"... c'mon guys, pick a target market that's not already made up its mind!</p><p>SOE is on the right track with their FreeRealms and Star Wars ad campaigns -- targetting the kids and adults who watch cartoons and anime, people who may not necessarily be die-hard gamers but are still interested in something fun to play. Now if they'd just use that same approach when marketing EQ2....</p></blockquote><p>You know.. I saw an advert for EQ2X in Mad Magazine. Where's the advert for EQ2? Or even EQ1?</p></blockquote><p>Personally, if you expect to actually see EQ2 (Live) advertising, you are fooling yourself.  SOE hasn't advertised EQ2 in prior years and with the introduction and "success" of the Extended game mechanic (per Smokejumper) I would be STUNNED to see any advertising related to the EQ2 we old timers know and love.</p><p>Oh..lol..Mad Magazine.  Read that in my teens/20's.  Target audience anyone?  <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p>But hey, perhaps I could be pleasently surprised and SOE will actually advertise EQ2.</p>

[Eugam]

<p><cite>Sigtyr@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Kigneer wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Like I've said two years ago, EQ2 is not friendly to new players. And my treatment is an excellent example how and why people don't stay in EQ2. The community doesn't accept them and even tells them to kiss off.</p></blockquote><p>Well SOE changed this with EQ2EX and I believe that EQ2 Lives inability to retain new players was a big influence in the decision to launch EX, probably not as big as the opportunities of the new payment model but important and Smokejumper has talked about attracting and KEEPING new players with EX. And as I understand EX is full of new players having a blast so it must have worked out well</p><p>As I see it there are good reasons to assume that there has been a shift in development away from the "cutting edge" customers towads making a more challenging game for "general customers" as the decisions to "dumb down" content for regular players while keeping the advanced game on the  same difficulity (or higher as in TSO) obviously only divided the playerbase even more. There is an excellent summary on Eq 2 wire of what Smokejumper have written on these topics in various threads on these forums on</p><p><a rel="nofollow" href="http://eq2wire.com/2010/12/04/looking-beyond-velious/#more-6418" target="_blank">http://eq2wire.com/2010/12/04/looki...ious/#more-6418</a></p><p>I am exited in Velious and I hope it will be great but the marketing push (if any) will be for EQ2EX. EQ2 Live has not been welcoming to new player in a long time (well maybe on the smaller servers, AB went downhill a lot in 2010).</p></blockquote><p>EQ2 EX will end where EQ2 is now, just it will be worse due to different accounts of bronze/gold/platin. They will be even more divided. The problem of EQ2 live is the top heavy community and the mechanics. If you only have 2 alts you learned to like over the years, then it is a lot of work to keep them up-to-date item and AA wise. I am just talking about legendary/experts. The game is to item and lately to AA heavy. Compare it with KoS where the questlines gave you exp, armor and jewels without any grind. It was more about the journey then the goal.  I am not against token, but we need a mix of  heroic questing and tokens. Since we cant go back AA-wise, There needs to be something to allow new players to catch up. The holy cow raid has to rebalance. The meassure hast to be the number of players and not itemization. Else its another artificial divider of the community.</p><p>Since battlegrounds we know that a continental/worldwide gaming is possible. One thing i could imagine would be a worldwide LFG mechanism for players from 1 to max-20 levels. Once grouped there should be inter-server teleport. Details like item and money transfer can be solved by locking any money (minus a few gold for food and repair lol) or tradable items in your bags or so. Mentoring should decrease stats  a bit more when grouping worldwide. Its unfun as lowbe when a fury is tanking, healing and dps'ing the whole dungeon. He should just die like any lowbe class when pulling a room.</p><p>Lower level players also need hirelings like the guys in Outer Vault. That way they are able to see more of the dungeons. Just the NPC tank should taunt a bit and the healer heal like a wardens fairy, while both buff HP or WIS etc.</p>

[Iskandar]

<p>I see the content itself as being <strong>FAR</strong> more of a barrier to new players than the community. I've seen quite a few new players ask questions on Crushbone and get answers and help offered from a score of people, even people giving away sets of crafted gear to new players. The community is fine -- don't let a handful random jerks who use the anonymity of chat channels to bully and annoy folks fool you. You'll see that type in <strong>every</strong> game on the market, and it's best to just add em to /ignore.</p><p>But the sheer volume of content that EQ2 offers is both its bane and its blessing... it has far more content than most other MMO's out there, and offers a massive variety of quests and zones at <em>almost</em> every level (some tiers are still a bit limited). But when a new player starts, they're often encouraged to level levellevelLEVEL NOW OMG DO IT DOITDOIT!!! Other people in their guilds or groups will often not be interested in reading the quest lore, watching the antics of some funny mob, or admiring the beautiful scenery... they've been there and done that already, maybe even six years ago -- now they just want to plow through.</p><p>This often winds up making the new player feel like they're missing something, that they're lagging behind, or worse -- that they're a hindrance, holding others down when they try to help them. They want to see the sights and actually <strong><em>experience</em></strong> the game... but there's all this pressure to get the levels, to get the AA, to get the gear... that sucks the fun right out, especially when all you want to do is just <strong><em>play the dang game</em></strong>! Beleive me, I've been there, I've felt that -- it's why I eventually gave up EQ1, because I just didn't have enough time to keep up with everyone else in the maze of AA grinding, faction grinding, and zone flagging it became.</p><p>The lower-tier revamps have done a <strong>lot</strong> to help address that. Sure, I'd rather see new content for all my level 90's... but I'd also like to see a steady flow of new players who will keep the game alive and active. You don't need to reinvent the game to do that either -- simply making the lower tiers nicer will help with it... smoothing out the exp curves will help, too, and will help those new players to "catch up" with the established older players. And SOE is already doing just that -- ingame, they've definately been working to keep the game alive and kicking at all levels.</p><p>Now, if they'd just... oh, I dunno... maybe <strong><em>advertise</em></strong> that the game is still here, all alive and kicking. Maybe try and get... oh, I dunno... <strong>new</strong> players, people who are looking for a fun game to play with the family, and all they ever see advertised is WoW, WoW, and WoW because they don't read those niche magazines and websites that SOE currently focuses its efforts on. Heck, at the very least they could just pull <strong>ONE</strong> FreeRealms ad and replace it with an EQ2 ad... EQ2 revenue paid for much of FreeRealms anyways -- I say it's time to call in the favor! <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/e8a506dc4ad763aca51bec4ca7dc8560.gif" border="0" /></p>

[Miss_Jackie]

<p><cite>Kitsi@Lucan DLere wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Miss_Jackie wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Iskandar wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Blizzard's advertising blitz certainly didn't stop Sony's own FreeRealms and Star Wars Adventures from firing off commercials at the top and bottom of every hour on Nick Toons and The Hub every day in December. It also didn't stop LotRO from firing off commercials about once an hour on Cartoon Network and SyFy, as well as a few on BBC America and FX. DDO even had a couple of shots in there, as did a few of the F2P games like Wizards 101. And Trion's Rift Beta promotions were generating a lot more talk online than Blizzard's expansion.</p><p>But, to be fair, I hear EQ2 had some ads in a few gamer magazines. How many gamers who go out of their way to read a niche magazine devoted to gaming news and reviews will have either not heard of EQ2 or not already played EQ2? I've said it before about "preaching to the choir"... c'mon guys, pick a target market that's not already made up its mind!</p><p>SOE is on the right track with their FreeRealms and Star Wars ad campaigns -- targetting the kids and adults who watch cartoons and anime, people who may not necessarily be die-hard gamers but are still interested in something fun to play. Now if they'd just use that same approach when marketing EQ2....</p></blockquote><p>You know.. I saw an advert for EQ2X in Mad Magazine. Where's the advert for EQ2? Or even EQ1?</p></blockquote><p>Personally, if you expect to actually see EQ2 (Live) advertising, you are fooling yourself.  SOE hasn't advertised EQ2 in prior years and with the introduction and "success" of the Extended game mechanic (per Smokejumper) I would be STUNNED to see any advertising related to the EQ2 we old timers know and love.</p><p>Oh..lol..Mad Magazine.  Read that in my teens/20's.  Target audience anyone?  <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" /></p><p>But hey, perhaps I could be pleasently surprised and SOE will actually advertise EQ2.</p></blockquote><p>Actually I'm in my 30's and I still read MAD Magazine... Just  because you get older, doesn't mean you automatically get crotchedy and old minded.</p><p>Anyway, my point was.. they're advertising Extended. why not EQ2?</p>

[Brigh]

<p><cite>Morghus wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>How can you people not realize that SOE no longer really wants to give EQ2 "premier new game" treatment? EQ2 is old, <span style="color: #ff0000;"><a href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/forums/show.m?forum_id=2590" target="_blank">it isnt getting any new people in</a></span>, on almost all websites that show their expansion trailers, you can see by peoples' comments that it is a laughing stock. Why waste money trying to advertise or support it, when it makes decent enough money on its own so that you can spend the money it makes to fund your other projects?</p><p>It is my understanding that SOE isn't really grouped into different sections like an EQ2 team, or a SWG team or w/e. Pretty sure they all share office space with each other, and even trade around their devs. The guy we had working on shader 3.0? He is working on a different SOE game right now from what I hear, and won't be back until he is done with that other game.</p></blockquote>

[Kitsi]

<p><cite>Carpediem@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>The problem with that is, with no real advertising how are they going to get new players? A lot of people loved Velious in EQ1 and could walk by the PC games section of Best Buy or Gamestop and see the box.</p><p>With digital download only, it will only be people that are already playing, or word of mouth (which isn't much these days).</p></blockquote><p>LOOK!  Advertising! <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p><a href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2x/posts/list.m?topic_id=4594" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2x...m?topic_id=4594</a></p><p>Oh..wait........</p>

[Iskandar]

<p>Ah. Yeah. Right. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/2786c5c8e1a8be796fb2f726cca5a0fe.gif" border="0" /></p><p>Making EQ2 compete against <em><strong>itself</strong></em> by separating the live and f2p servers into two "separate games" will end about as well as when Borders bought out Waldenbooks and kept the two brands separate so they could "compete." That worked out really well.... for Barnes & Noble. </p><p>Everquest 2 needs to be advertised as <strong>Everquest 2</strong>, as a single entity with <strong>multiple server models and access plans</strong>, not as Legacy or Extended or any other divisive copout.</p>

[ShinGoku]

<p>Color me confused, I cant see anything about EQ2 on any of the 3 links he posted...</p>

[Kitsi]

<p><cite>Iskandar wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Ah. Yeah. Right. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/2786c5c8e1a8be796fb2f726cca5a0fe.gif" border="0" /></p><p>Making EQ2 compete against <em><strong>itself</strong></em> by separating the live and f2p servers into two "separate games" will end about as well as when Borders bought out Waldenbooks and kept the two brands separate so they could "compete." That worked out really well.... for Barnes & Noble. </p><p>Everquest 2 needs to be advertised as <strong>Everquest 2</strong>, as a single entity with <strong>multiple server models and access plans</strong>, not as Legacy or Extended or any other divisive copout.</p></blockquote><p>DING!</p><p>See..there is NO advertising for EQ2.  None...not in stores..not on sites..nada..zilch.</p><p>These are ads for EQ2EXTENDED...period. </p><p>Notice my link is from the Extended forums. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  Nothing for Live.  I am sure Velious will be a very popular expansion. /nods  A month away from launch and nothing.</p>

[Buffie]

<p><cite>Kitsi@Lucan DLere wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Iskandar wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Ah. Yeah. Right. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/2786c5c8e1a8be796fb2f726cca5a0fe.gif" border="0" /></p><p>Making EQ2 compete against <em><strong>itself</strong></em> by separating the live and f2p servers into two "separate games" will end about as well as when Borders bought out Waldenbooks and kept the two brands separate so they could "compete." That worked out really well.... for Barnes & Noble. </p><p>Everquest 2 needs to be advertised as <strong>Everquest 2</strong>, as a single entity with <strong>multiple server models and access plans</strong>, not as Legacy or Extended or any other divisive copout.</p></blockquote><p>DING!</p><p>See..there is NO advertising for EQ2.  None...not in stores..not on sites..nada..zilch.</p><p>These are ads for EQ2EXTENDED...period. </p><p>Notice my link is from the Extended forums. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" />  Nothing for Live.  I am sure Velious will be a very popular expansion. /nods  A month away from launch and nothing.</p></blockquote><p>In the link that send you nack to everquest, you'll notice that in the video played they allude there is a BL class with a male Kerran and a huge tiger sitting behind him out in the woods.</p><p>I played a BL in Eq1 as my main, was sad they werent included in EQ2. But I do feel pretty indignant that they deny this class but will advertise that  they do  for Eq2. </p><p>Please dont allude that you have this class for Eq2, its disheartening and sad.</p><p><a href="http://s10.photobucket.com/albums/a113/kittyvibe/?action=view&current=BL.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a113/kittyvibe/BL.jpg" border="0" /></a></p><p>></p>

[WeatherMan]

<p><cite>Kigneer wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Metaphysix wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Neverwinter's coming out this year, by the way.</p></blockquote><p>Oh, god no.</p><p>That series was so bug filled (and godawful) I just tossed the game never looking back.</p></blockquote><p>Hey, we can hope that they will have figured all that stuff out by then.  The game world for Neverwinter Nights (the Forgotten Realms) is one of the very few that I consider superior to Norrath.  At least before it got mauled by Wizards of the Coast to shoehorn it into their 4th Edition D&D vision (a company that has even worse customer service and relations than SOE, if you can believe it).</p><p>And speaking of 'figured all that stuff out by then' - how do you pre-order something if they haven't figured out the release format, for all those people who want their Freebloods as a reward for being patient little subscribers?  For myself, I am not all that worried about a vampire (else I'd have used Smedbucks), but I WOULD like to know what advantages a boxed edition has over a digital download or vice versa.  Considering how much time is left before the theoretical release date, SOME information might be a good idea.</p>

[scruffylookin]

<p>Whether we agree or not, I think it's pretty obvious SOE has decided the value of advertising won't be greater than the cost.</p><p>With or without advertising, I think they've accepted the premise that the people who are going to buy this expansion have already decided they're going to buy it, so no advertising is really going to influence those folks. Their decision is made.</p><p>And the fact that they're not advertising it tells me it'll be a good expansion, but nothing that re-invents the wheel. It'll be more of the same, so we can move on. It's not designed to bring in new people, it's designed for existing players (IMO). Which means we won't be in awe of how increcible it is, but we'll have fun with it.</p><p>And honestly, how many "Where's the advertising?" posts have been made from people that haven't decided whether or not they're going to get it. Those posts are typically from folks that are going to buy it with or without advertising, but just want a good sneak peak at what they're getting.</p><p>But that's not the purpose of advertising. Marketing is literally spending money to make even more money, and at this point, I can't imagine anyone at SOE believes a marketing campaign is going to make enough money to overcome its cost. If I had to guess, I'd be willing to bet they already have a very good estimate of how many units will sell, and that estimate would be pretty accurate with or without ads.</p>

[Zaldor]

<p>As I've said before, the best marketing SOE can do for EQ2 is sell the game to another company.</p>

[Iskandar]

<p><cite>scruffylookin wrote:</cite></p><blockquote>And honestly, how many "Where's the advertising?" posts have been made from people that haven't decided whether or not they're going to get it. Those posts are typically from folks that are going to buy it with or without advertising, but just want a good sneak peak at what they're getting.</blockquote><p>Well, mine for one (well, more than one actually, since I have multiple accounts). Velious isn't getting a free ride from me -- it has to <strong><em>earn</em></strong> a spot on my shopping list, just like any other product out there. Show me it's worth buying and I'll buy it... but my pricepoint involves a bit more than just a lotta snow, flying griffons, and vampire alts.</p>

[dawy]

<p>Nice to see another shambolic xpac launch you know it'll come but you hope it wont when will they learn? and at this point,on this game do they care?</p><p>I suspect they dont tbh</p>

[Kitsi]

<p>Don't worry. They will release it. <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

[Fudged]

<p>have been trawling MMORPG today looking for possible new stuff to try.  Noticed a few banner ads for EQ2x, nothing for velious, and nothing on the page for EQ2 about velious either.</p>

[Metaphysix]

<p><cite>Kitsi@Lucan DLere wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Don't worry. They will release it. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" /></p></blockquote><p>We probably don't WANT it released, if it's going to be quickly assembled garbage.</p>

[Kitsi]

<p><cite>Fudged@Runnyeye wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>have been trawling MMORPG today looking for possible new stuff to try.  Noticed a few banner ads for EQ2x, nothing for velious, and nothing on the page for EQ2 about velious either.</p></blockquote><p>I think the chances of finding advertising that specifically mentions EQ2 (sans X) are right up there between nil and zero. And the fact that there is no mention of Velious is, well, pretty unusual from all the hoopla in previous years.  It gives me a bad feeling.</p><p>SOE is quite satisfied, according to Smokejumper, with the Freeport server and what the players there bring to the <span style="text-decoration: line-through;">game</span> coffers. Closing down the beta servers on the Live forums so that 'the input of the Extended players" receives equal treatment is a clear demonstation of that. </p><p>But don't get me wrong.  I am sure that EQ2(Live) will remain available for folks, most likely in that tiny little writing thing that scrolls by really fast at the end of a commercial with all the legal jargon and disclaimers and stuff you can't read.</p>

[Wingrider01]

<p><cite>Iskandar wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>scruffylookin wrote:</cite></p><blockquote>And honestly, how many "Where's the advertising?" posts have been made from people that haven't decided whether or not they're going to get it. Those posts are typically from folks that are going to buy it with or without advertising, but just want a good sneak peak at what they're getting.</blockquote><p>Well, mine for one (well, more than one actually, since I have multiple accounts). Velious isn't getting a free ride from me -- it has to <strong><em>earn</em></strong> a spot on my shopping list, just like any other product out there. Show me it's worth buying and I'll buy it... but my pricepoint involves a bit more than just a lotta snow, flying griffons, and vampire alts.</p></blockquote><p>QFT - My main account will get the upgrade but not sure about the others, I just finished placing placed my pre-order for the one that is coming out in March to see what it is like.</p>

[Exialiez]

<p>Rift is being released March 1'st.  I've been playing this game since before it launched.  I do not think this game will be on my list this year.  Right now I'm planning to go to Rift...why?  Because I know what to expect there, and the Beta's been fun.  Me and my wife both really wish this game would step it up and have a really good release, but I just don't see it happening.</p>

[Fudged]

<p>the only way i see it working is if they are having an intensive 2-3wk period of advertising immediatley before release, and a week or so after it's launch.  but by past experience, I don't see it happening</p>

[Kitsi]

<p>Remember a little while back Smokejumper said they were really really busy working on some awesome stuff??</p><p>Found it!</p><p><a href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?topic_id=493464" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/...topic_id=493464</a></p><p>and</p><p><a href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2x/posts/list.m?topic_id=4760" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2x...m?topic_id=4760</a></p>

[scruffylookin]

<p><cite>Wingrider01 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Iskandar wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>scruffylookin wrote:</cite></p><blockquote>And honestly, how many "Where's the advertising?" posts have been made from people that haven't decided whether or not they're going to get it. Those posts are typically from folks that are going to buy it with or without advertising, but just want a good sneak peak at what they're getting.</blockquote><p>Well, mine for one (well, more than one actually, since I have multiple accounts). Velious isn't getting a free ride from me -- it has to <strong><em>earn</em></strong> a spot on my shopping list, just like any other product out there. Show me it's worth buying and I'll buy it... but my pricepoint involves a bit more than just a lotta snow, flying griffons, and vampire alts.</p></blockquote><p>QFT - My main account will get the upgrade but not sure about the others, I just finished placing placed my pre-order for the one that is coming out in March to see what it is like.</p></blockquote><p>But advertising isn't a factor in either of these decisions. Releasing information on the product, sure, but neither of your decisions to buy would be based on seeing a commercial on TV. Advertising would have no impact on you at all. It's information about the expansions that will make your purchasing decision, and that will come with open beta or even launch.</p><p>Spending thousands on commercial ads wouldn't impact your decision one way or the other. I'm just saying that's why they aren't marketing. There's no payoff for the cost.</p><p>I'm not saying it's right or wrong, I'm just saying it's a sound business decision. The people they are making this expansion for are not going to be swayed by magazine or TV ads. They'll base it (as you said) on knowledge of the gameplay specifics, and that will come with reviews and word of mouth.</p><p>I think they just evaluated their customer base and decided that advertising campaigns would not justify the cost, and information that will determine your buying decision isn't impacted by the current timing. If you don't get any information on the game until launch, but at launch you see it has what you want, you'll buy it. </p><p>It's just not economically viable. Both of your replies indicate that marketing isn't playing into your buying decision at all. If you like the features, you'll get it. If you don't, you won't. A cool ad campaign won't change our minds one way or the other.</p><p>Again, IMHO.</p>

[Iskandar]

<p>Well, it depends on the type of advertising being used: basically, there's <strong>informational</strong> or <strong>emotional</strong> ads. An <em>emotional</em> ad has flashy graphics and catchy taglines that are designed to get the "that looks <em>awesome!</em>" type of crowd, but tells you little about the product itself. An <em>informational</em> ad informs you about the product and gives consumers a logical, rational reason why the product is superior and worthy of purchase.</p><p>For game advertising, compare the "Rift" and "WoW: Cataclysm" ad spots with the "FreeRealms" and "Wizards 101" ad spots. Rift and WoW have each gone for the emotional approach -- dramatic CGI, explosions, dragons, flashy effects, and a catchy tagline. FreeRealms and Wizards each have an informational approach, with voiceovers and "mascots" providing details about content and gameplay along with ingame footage.</p><p>An emotional EQ2 ad would be just as you describe... an informational EQ2 ad is what I describe.</p>

[scruffylookin]

<p>But it's not money well spent, as their target consumer isn't someone they need to introduce the product to.</p><p>Putting information up on the forums or on the site will accomplish just as much as paying thousands of dollars to get it on TV or in a magazine, because the people that will buy it don't need to be introduced to the product. They already know of it, and if they don't the community will make sure they do.</p><p>I just don't see the benefit to advertising to customers that would be just as served by throwing the info up on the site and forums.</p>

[DrkVsr]

<p><span style="font-size: medium; color: #993300; font-family: comic sans ms,sans-serif;">The fact there has not been a single Red Shirt sighting in <em>any</em> of the many threads about this has got to be deafening in its silence</span></p><p><span style="font-size: medium; color: #993300; font-family: Comic Sans MS;">Ah can understand SOE's move to vaccuum-management system (as in, they stick a vaccuum cleaner into your bank account and suck up every cent you have if you want to progress beyond the basic loin-cloth and twig you start out with) but they have to understand that they could get more of that if they advertised and got more people hooked up to the vaccuum cleaners</span></p>

[Iskandar]

<p><cite>scruffylookin wrote:</cite></p><blockquote>But it's not money well spent, as their target consumer isn't someone they need to introduce the product to. <p>Putting information up on the forums or on the site will accomplish just as much as paying thousands of dollars to get it on TV or in a magazine, because the people that will buy it don't need to be introduced to the product. They already know of it, and if they don't the community will make sure they do.</p><p>I just don't see the benefit to advertising to customers that would be just as served by throwing the info up on the site and forums.</p></blockquote><p>The "target consumer" shouldn't just be limited to the current playerbase though, unless the goal is only to slowly kill the game through stagnation and slow attrition. And despite the naysayers, I really rather doubt that is the ultimate goal for SOE. A product <strong><em>needs</em></strong> marketing of one form or another or consumers will simply <strong>not</strong> know it exists.</p><p>WoW's advertising blitz for Cataclysm didn't convey any real information about the product. It was <em><strong>not</strong></em> a campaign targetted at their current subscribers. It was a flashy appeal to the emotional side of consumers, and its primary purpose was to get the <strong>name</strong> into the public consciousness, to stimulate impulse buys by people who were <strong>not</strong> currently subscribers.</p><p>And it <strong><em>worked</em></strong>.</p><p>I was standing next to a woman in Best Buy who purchased it simply because she recognized the name from the commercial and thought it sounded fun. I talked to her... she knew absolutely nothing whatsoever about MMOs or WoW. And that was far from an isolated event. Sure, she may have cancelled her sub after a month -- or she could be havin the time of her life right now... either way, she still bought the box. And she bought it <strong><em>because</em></strong> of the <strong>advertising</strong>.</p><p>When you get down to it, WoW didn't rise to dominate the numbers through word of mouth and pure luck -- they saturated every available market with advertising, especially the non-gamer markets. Unfortunately, EQ2 has always seemed to stick to those traditional gamer outlets... even the new campaign focuses its efforts on standard gamer websites and media, and personally I doubt the effectiveness of that strategy. </p><p>As I've said a good dozen times before, most gamers who are into gaming enough to frequent those sites will have already made up their mind about EQ2. It's a <strong><em>SIX YEAR OLD TITLE</em></strong> -- heavy gamers have either played it and moved on, are still playing it, or were never interested and never will be. Newer gamers, especially ones looking for their first MMO, will either go where the numbers are, where their friends are, or where the media is at... and right now, that's gonna be products like WoW and Rift. Products that are <strong>using</strong> the media to their advantage -- either directly advertising through commercials and cross-medium campaigns, or indirectly advertising through the use of press announcements, developer interviews, and other "news" events.</p><p>I'm not talking out my derriere here. I've done quite a few ad campaigns before, worked in marketing teams that turned a company or product from a total unknown into a must-have -- all through the power of a clever ad. Honestly, it's more about psychology than anything else, getting the consumer to recognize the name and associate it with a positive thought. And it can still be done with EQ2, even this late into the game's life -- but it's not gonna happen without spening a little money and actually getting the name out there.</p><p>Here's a "homework" project for anyone truly interested that will illustrate what I'm saying far better than anything I can type here:  ask a friend, neighbor, or the person behind you in line to name the first five products that come to mind. Just fire the answers off, no hesitation, no research. Movies, soft drinks, games -- whatever category you wish. Rinse and repeat with as many different people as you can. When you're done, look over the list and see how many are "popular" brands, items that are heavily promoted (such as Coke and Pepsi, for example) as opposed to more obscure products (such as Chek or Faygo, to continue the soft drink example). I beleive you'll find the responses to be some of the most heavily advertised products in their respective categories. And <strong>THAT</strong> is the benefit of <strong><em>advertising</em></strong> to customers instead of just throwing the info on a forum.</p>

[feldon30]

<p><cite>scruffylookin wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>But it's not money well spent, as their target consumer isn't someone they need to introduce the product to.</p><p>Putting information up on the forums or on the site will accomplish just as much as paying thousands of dollars to get it on TV or in a magazine, because the people that will buy it don't need to be introduced to the product. They already know of it, and if they don't the community will make sure they do.</p><p>I just don't see the benefit to advertising to customers that would be just as served by throwing the info up on the site and forums.</p></blockquote><p>That's not how advertising and marketing work. Ads are generally NOT intended for those people who are familiar with the product.</p><p>Ask most people about EverQuest and they either say "yeah I played that 10 years ago, it's still running?" or "EverWhat?".</p><p>Ask most people about World of Warcraft and it's either "man I saw that South Park episode, that was hiliarious" or "I used to play, had to quit", or "My brother/uncle/cousin/nephew/neice/girlfriend/boyfriend" plays it.</p>

[scruffylookin]

<p><cite>Iskandar wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>scruffylookin wrote:</cite></p><blockquote>But it's not money well spent, as their target consumer isn't someone they need to introduce the product to. <p>Putting information up on the forums or on the site will accomplish just as much as paying thousands of dollars to get it on TV or in a magazine, because the people that will buy it don't need to be introduced to the product. They already know of it, and if they don't the community will make sure they do.</p><p>I just don't see the benefit to advertising to customers that would be just as served by throwing the info up on the site and forums.</p></blockquote><p>The "target consumer" shouldn't just be limited to the current playerbase though, unless the goal is only to slowly kill the game through stagnation and slow attrition. And despite the naysayers, I really rather doubt that is the ultimate goal for SOE. A product <strong><em>needs</em></strong> marketing of one form or another or consumers will simply <strong>not</strong> know it exists.</p><p>WoW's advertising blitz for Cataclysm didn't convey any real information about the product. It was <em><strong>not</strong></em> a campaign targetted at their current subscribers. It was a flashy appeal to the emotional side of consumers, and its primary purpose was to get the <strong>name</strong> into the public consciousness, to stimulate impulse buys by people who were <strong>not</strong> currently subscribers.</p><p>And it <strong><em>worked</em></strong>.</p><p>I was standing next to a woman in Best Buy who purchased it simply because she recognized the name from the commercial and thought it sounded fun. I talked to her... she knew absolutely nothing whatsoever about MMOs or WoW. And that was far from an isolated event. Sure, she may have cancelled her sub after a month -- or she could be havin the time of her life right now... either way, she still bought the box. And she bought it <strong><em>because</em></strong> of the <strong>advertising</strong>.</p><p>When you get down to it, WoW didn't rise to dominate the numbers through word of mouth and pure luck -- they saturated every available market with advertising, especially the non-gamer markets. Unfortunately, EQ2 has always seemed to stick to those traditional gamer outlets... even the new campaign focuses its efforts on standard gamer websites and media, and personally I doubt the effectiveness of that strategy. </p><p>As I've said a good dozen times before, most gamers who are into gaming enough to frequent those sites will have already made up their mind about EQ2. It's a <strong><em>SIX YEAR OLD TITLE</em></strong> -- heavy gamers have either played it and moved on, are still playing it, or were never interested and never will be. Newer gamers, especially ones looking for their first MMO, will either go where the numbers are, where their friends are, or where the media is at... and right now, that's gonna be products like WoW and Rift. Products that are <strong>using</strong> the media to their advantage -- either directly advertising through commercials and cross-medium campaigns, or indirectly advertising through the use of press announcements, developer interviews, and other "news" events.</p><p>I'm not talking out my derriere here. I've done quite a few ad campaigns before, worked in marketing teams that turned a company or product from a total unknown into a must-have -- all through the power of a clever ad. Honestly, it's more about psychology than anything else, getting the consumer to recognize the name and associate it with a positive thought. And it can still be done with EQ2, even this late into the game's life -- but it's not gonna happen without spening a little money and actually getting the name out there.</p><p>Here's a "homework" project for anyone truly interested that will illustrate what I'm saying far better than anything I can type here:  ask a friend, neighbor, or the person behind you in line to name the first five products that come to mind. Just fire the answers off, no hesitation, no research. Movies, soft drinks, games -- whatever category you wish. Rinse and repeat with as many different people as you can. When you're done, look over the list and see how many are "popular" brands, items that are heavily promoted (such as Coke and Pepsi, for example) as opposed to more obscure products (such as Chek or Faygo, to continue the soft drink example). I beleive you'll find the responses to be some of the most heavily advertised products in their respective categories. And <strong>THAT</strong> is the benefit of <strong><em>advertising</em></strong> to customers instead of just throwing the info on a forum.</p></blockquote><p>Respectfully, I disagree. The marketing blitz you're describing requires resources that would just be unwise to invest in. I've personally seen companies go bankrupt because of this very thing. The costs of such a thing is enormous and far more complex than you're describing.</p><p>If EQ2 suddenly got the numbers WoW has tomorrow, the game would almost certainly die. Advertising ins't just paying for ad space. You have to create a very expensive structure to handle that kind of growth. Growth that is too fast can be far more devastating than growth that is too slow. They would have to invest in servers and devs and cs and about a thousand other areas just to prepare for that level of growth. And then they'd have to pay for the advertising and the advertising teams. You're talking millions of dollars on the <strong>hope </strong>that it will cause a 6 year old game that is about to become a past generation game to suddenly be the cultural phenom that WoW is. EQ2 isn't equipped to handle that on any level and the end result would be shift from thousands of moderately satisfied customers to millions of grossly dissatisfied customers.</p><p>That is a massive risk that SOE obviously doesn't want to take. And it's a valid stance. Advertising works, but only when implemented as a part of a bigger machine that EQ2 simply is not. Advertising can be a great tool, but without the implementation of a very expensive structure to handle the possible influx, it is far more harmful than good.</p><p>I don't think SOE is trying to kill this game either. I think they just want it to remain profitable. And to do what you suggest would be risking everything in the hope of something that is unlikely to happen anyway.</p><p>Personally, I think with the current model of promotion and implementation, this game has many years left in it and it's currenlty an oasis of gaming. It will not become the cultural of phenom that WoW is, no matter what kind of marketing plan they implement. Advertising is not the reason WoW became what it is. It would likely cause (at best) growth that the structure isn't equipped to handle or (at worst) millions of dollars that could have gone into content development wasted on a gamble that didn't pay off.</p>

[Kigneer]

<p><cite>feldon30 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>That's not how advertising and marketing work. Ads are generally NOT intended for those people who are familiar with the product.</p><p>Ask most people about EverQuest and they either say "yeah I played that 10 years ago, it's still running?" or "EverWhat?".</p><p>Ask most people about World of Warcraft and it's either "man I saw that South Park episode, that was hiliarious" or "I used to play, had to quit", or "My brother/uncle/cousin/nephew/neice/girlfriend/boyfriend" plays it.</p></blockquote><p>But we also have a couple major problems with EQ2 that other game like WoW doesn't have, which hurts the game, especially to attract new players.</p><p>One is EQ2Flames. A popular site for EQ2 players, but for a new player seeing that tomfoolery s/he will not think highly of the quality of EQ2's community. I recently saw a thread that was arguing some class mechanics wish-to-change, with a reply that basically went, "If you request this be ready for a RaR [Rate a [I cannot control my vocabulary]] thread, and I hope you're ready for a name and server change". Kills a very active part in MMO communities, and that's suggestions. A community that hard edged and controlling does not welcome change, change that is required in a game that is innovative and seeks new ideas to remain ahead of the competition. WoW can be a cesspool at times, but suggestions are there 24/7 without fear of threats; harassment; stalking if you disagree with a controlling few. EQ2Flames went from a way to voice disagreements with SoE; to keeping ninjas and other community trash from ruining the game; to a way to control the direction of the game itself (e.g., I don't like what XYZ said, I'm going to tattle and make a RaR. Bye sucker. I had this attempted by a stalker in this game, who took things w-a-y too seriously, to the point he wanted to control the outcome. Then this community wonders why so few come and stay? If they saw it done to others, they know how easy it can be done to them). Not a healthy environment if it's used as a literal club by few parties to "get their way".</p><p>Secondly, how do you introduce new players into a closed society? If you are totally new to the EQ franchise, how to do you "break the ice", when everyone is talking about what they did in EQ in 1998? Part of the thing with MMOs is to feel included in the social groups now. Games like WoW started new and only 6 years old. You may have missed the vanilla and BC years, but you can catch up fairly quickly, especially in a game that changes everything to begin with. EQ2? It's stuck in a time warp. It's great if you were part of that generation, there's a common bond. But for the new player, EQ2 can be a v-e-r-y lonely place. It's very long on the tooth with an old culture with social networks almost old as the graphical browser. Getting "in" is an epic journey itself.</p><p>So even if SoE does advertize to new markets, there's a couple of hurdles to get over. Major hurdles in attracting and retaining players. It's a shame too, since SoE created a game that has the most content; the best style of tradeskilling; epic raids; actual housing and guild halls. It has about everything...<em>but new players</em>.</p>

[dawy]

<p>Honestly if you're trying to lay (some) the blame of EQ2 at flames's door then this game really is in trouble in my view that site has done more good than bad for the game,at the very least its a place to go to vent or just say what you feel when the ban hammer's being used round here.</p>

[Kigneer]

<p><cite>dawy wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Honestly if you're trying to lay (some) the blame of EQ2 at flames's door then this game really is in trouble in my view that site has done more good than bad for the game,at the very least its a place to go to vent or just say what you feel when the ban hammer's being used round here.</p></blockquote><p>Look at the "front door".</p><p>If they are a new player, totally oblivious of the EQ franchise, <em>what do they see?</em></p><p>Are you familiar with 4chan?</p><p>EQ2, as a community, has some PR issues in itself. One hand they claim the ingame community is "mature". Goto EQ2Flames, do you see a mature community?</p><p>WoW they don't need such sites, they let it all hang out in the open (thick skin? Naw, you need a shovel). EQ2 they hide it like a dirty magazine behind a brown wrapper, tucked in the backroom. A peeping-tom is how they learn about it, and often after they have been "exposed" by him.</p>

[feldon30]

<p><cite>Kigneer wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>feldon30 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>That's not how advertising and marketing work. Ads are generally NOT intended for those people who are familiar with the product.</p><p>Ask most people about EverQuest and they either say "yeah I played that 10 years ago, it's still running?" or "EverWhat?".</p><p>Ask most people about World of Warcraft and it's either "man I saw that South Park episode, that was hiliarious" or "I used to play, had to quit", or "My brother/uncle/cousin/nephew/neice/girlfriend/boyfriend" plays it.</p></blockquote><p>But we also have a couple major problems with EQ2 that other game like WoW doesn't have, which hurts the game, especially to attract new players.</p><p>One is EQ2Flames. A popular site for EQ2 players, but for a new player seeing that tomfoolery s/he will not think highly of the quality of EQ2's community. I recently saw a thread that was arguing some class mechanics wish-to-change, with a reply that basically went, "If you request this be ready for a RaR [Rate a [I cannot control my vocabulary]] thread, and I hope you're ready for a name and server change". Kills a very active part in MMO communities, and that's suggestions. A community that hard edged and controlling does not welcome change, change that is required in a game that is innovative and seeks new ideas to remain ahead of the competition. WoW can be a cesspool at times, but suggestions are there 24/7 without fear of threats; harassment; stalking if you disagree with a controlling few. EQ2Flames went from a way to voice disagreements with SoE; to keeping ninjas and other community trash from ruining the game; to a way to control the direction of the game itself (e.g., I don't like what XYZ said, I'm going to tattle and make a RaR. Bye sucker. I had this attempted by a stalker in this game, who took things w-a-y too seriously, to the point he wanted to control the outcome. Then this community wonders why so few come and stay? If they saw it done to others, they know how easy it can be done to them). Not a healthy environment if it's used as a literal club by few parties to "get their way".</p><p>Secondly, how do you introduce new players into a closed society? If you are totally new to the EQ franchise, how to do you "break the ice", when everyone is talking about what they did in EQ in 1998? Part of the thing with MMOs is to feel included in the social groups now. Games like WoW started new and only 6 years old. You may have missed the vanilla and BC years, but you can catch up fairly quickly, especially in a game that changes everything to begin with. EQ2? It's stuck in a time warp. It's great if you were part of that generation, there's a common bond. But for the new player, EQ2 can be a v-e-r-y lonely place. It's very long on the tooth with an old culture with social networks almost old as the graphical browser. Getting "in" is an epic journey itself.</p><p>So even if SoE does advertize to new markets, there's a couple of hurdles to get over. Major hurdles in attracting and retaining players. It's a shame too, since SoE created a game that has the most content; the best style of tradeskilling; epic raids; actual housing and guild halls. It has about everything...<em>but new players</em>.</p></blockquote><p>EQ2Flames is the reason SOE can't grow the EQ2 player community? Really? I read and post at both sites. People do make dumb requests and suggestions. Here, we have to raise a valid argument. At Flames, you can just do a RaR. Different approaches for the same problem. The reason EQ2Flames even exists is because of gross overmoderation of the EQ2 forums, stamping out any criticism of the game, no matter how healthy and fair-minded it was written. The EQ2 forums became a "Love it or leave it" club for about 1 year. I moved to EQ2Flames because that's where all the smart people who wanted to talk about the mechanics and itemization issues in the game were allowed to do so.</p><p>And because EverQuest has a history, new players can't get into it? The last 3 years have seen EverQuest 2 made INCREDIBLY easy to get into. An alarming amount of streamlining, simplifying, and hand-holding have been done. How much easier and non-complicated does it have to get? Does it have to become Rift, which feels like you are completely on rails and have no free will? Does it have to become Wow, where an 8 year old can succeed?</p><p>The irony is, I think the ONLY ad campaign for EQ2 that would actually succeed is one that accentuates the depth that EQ2 offers. WoW is one-dimensional. Actually I raised this idea in the #EQ2 chat channel and a few people started laughing. You see, the last 3 years of EQ2 has seen a consistent, concerted effort to remove depth from EQ2. I wouldn't be surprised if we saw the Global Cooldown in EQ2 increased from .25 sec to 1 sec.</p><p>You've got some pretty feeble excuses IMO. It sounds like you don't WANT new players in EQ2.</p><p>What's your solution? You think SOE should sue EQ2Flames to get their site shut down? What's your idea of a healthy MMO community forum? One that talks about solo questing and which brand of knitting needle is the best and thinks raiding is done by people in their basement who live with mom?</p>

[Kigneer]

<p><cite>feldon30 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>You've got some pretty feeble excuses IMO. It sounds like you don't WANT new players in EQ2.</p></blockquote><p>Feldon, I don't expect you to see this, as you're not a <em>new player</em>.</p><p>And don't shoot the messenger for the message, that to is a problem around here. It becomes a personal battle against people, not content.</p>

[Iskandar]

<p><cite>scruffylookin wrote:</cite></p><blockquote>I don't think SOE is trying to kill this game either. I think they just want it to remain profitable. And to do what you suggest would be risking everything in the hope of something that is unlikely to happen anyway.</blockquote><p>But by <strong>NOT</strong> advertising, the only viable way to maintain that profitability as subscriber numbers slowly drop is to sacrifice game resources. This typically means firing people or consolidating hardware. And that typically leads to cutting corners on the game itself -- specifically, less content and smaller expansions. And that in turn will slowly push more people away from the game. It's a viscious cycle, and it doesn't end well.</p><p>You don't need a WoW-scale blitz to properly advertise a product, either. At this point, simply letting people off the beaten "gamer path" know the game is, you know, <strong>still here</strong> would be a great start for growing the customer base. Ask in a store for EQ2, odds are very good that you'll either get a surprised <em>"that game is still around?"</em> or a confused <em>"what's that?"</em> Frankly, that should <strong><em>never</em></strong> have been allowed to happen in the first place -- but it's not beyond repair if SOE takes action to actually promote their product some.</p><p>Don't underestimate the capabilities and resources of SOE. Both FreeRealms and Star Wars Adventures have extensive ad campaigns promoting them -- on TV alone, at the top and bottom of every half hour, you can find a spot for both titles on Nick Toons, The Hub, and Disney. This is in addition to regular interviews with producers and developers, press releases at appropriate account milestones, and the standard web package (cycling banner ads, dedicated ads, website reskins, embedded movies, etc). Remember, when EQ2 was young and new six years ago it peaked out at around half a million subscribers. So they know how to handle a crowd. Sure, <strong>unrealistic</strong> extremist examples, such as "If EQ2 suddenly got the numbers WoW has tommorrow," would overburden the existing system. <strong>Realistically</strong>, however, the growth rate would be much more moderate and much easier to manage, with hardware and personnel regularly added as needed. It's not their first rodeo -- SOE knows how to handle a little growth.</p><p>Now if they'd just <strong><em>promote</em></strong> their product to <strong><em>get</em></strong> that growth....</p>

[Iskandar]

<p><cite>Kigneer wrote:</cite></p><blockquote>But for the new player, EQ2 can be a v-e-r-y lonely place. It's very long on the tooth with an old culture with social networks almost old as the graphical browser. Getting "in" is an epic journey itself.</blockquote><p>Kig, I've seen you posting quite a bit on this theme lately in several of the forums here, and I gotta say... I'm afraid I just don't see it. The only obstacle I see is the class-based structure of the game, which can be limiting for some classes (a group only needs just so many tanks, after all). But pickup groups are the backbone of EQ2 (and every other MMO out there, as well), with a constant flow of players for one instance or event or quest update or AA run or raid after the other. Sure, some folks are gonna be clique-ish, preferring to play with their friends or guildies -- but the majority are just lookin for a good run with "whoever." And really, that's pretty much the way it is in <strong>ANY</strong> game, whether it's an MMO or a multiplayer shoot-em-up.</p>

[scruffylookin]

<p><cite>Iskandar wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>scruffylookin wrote:</cite></p><blockquote>I don't think SOE is trying to kill this game either. I think they just want it to remain profitable. And to do what you suggest would be risking everything in the hope of something that is unlikely to happen anyway.</blockquote><p>But by <strong>NOT</strong> advertising, the only viable way to maintain that profitability as subscriber numbers slowly drop is to sacrifice game resources. This typically means firing people or consolidating hardware. And that typically leads to cutting corners on the game itself -- specifically, less content and smaller expansions. And that in turn will slowly push more people away from the game. It's a viscious cycle, and it doesn't end well.</p><p>You don't need a WoW-scale blitz to properly advertise a product, either. At this point, simply letting people off the beaten "gamer path" know the game is, you know, <strong>still here</strong> would be a great start for growing the customer base. Ask in a store for EQ2, odds are very good that you'll either get a surprised <em>"that game is still around?"</em> or a confused <em>"what's that?"</em> Frankly, that should <strong><em>never</em></strong> have been allowed to happen in the first place -- but it's not beyond repair if SOE takes action to actually promote their product some.</p><p>Don't underestimate the capabilities and resources of SOE. Both FreeRealms and Star Wars Adventures have extensive ad campaigns promoting them -- on TV alone, at the top and bottom of every half hour, you can find a spot for both titles on Nick Toons, The Hub, and Disney. This is in addition to regular interviews with producers and developers, press releases at appropriate account milestones, and the standard web package (cycling banner ads, dedicated ads, website reskins, embedded movies, etc). Remember, when EQ2 was young and new six years ago it peaked out at around half a million subscribers. So they know how to handle a crowd. Sure, <strong>unrealistic</strong> extremist examples, such as "If EQ2 suddenly got the numbers WoW has tommorrow," would overburden the existing system. <strong>Realistically</strong>, however, the growth rate would be much more moderate and much easier to manage, with hardware and personnel regularly added as needed. It's not their first rodeo -- SOE knows how to handle a little growth.</p><p>Now if they'd just <strong><em>promote</em></strong> their product to <strong><em>get</em></strong> that growth....</p></blockquote><p>Personally - and keep in mind this is pure speculation with nothing to back it up really - I think SOE has determined what they expect the lifespan of this game to be and are promoting (or not promoting) accordingly. I don't think large growth is a goal for them on this game. I bet EQNext will get what you're asking for.</p><p>Whether right or wrong, I think they've determined that the current customer base (even with attrition) will keep this game afloat as long as they provide some content and SC and such.</p><p>Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying they're right. Your viewpoint on this is valid. Some advertising dollars very well could help sub numbers. But whether the sub numbers it gains would offset the costs of advertising is a genuine risk. It's not a given, and SOE apparently isn't willing to take that risk on this game. That, too, is a valid viewpoint.</p><p>I mean, we don't know their numbers, but we do know that this game has made it 6 years with virtually no advertising. For all we know, this game's life is moving in exactly the predicted progression that SOE alloted for and wanted. We have to understand that when EQ2 launched, there was no MMO boom. It was still very much a niche market, and I think the game is built for that.</p><p>I also think that EQNext is being built to draw massive numbers and they will market it accordingly.</p><p>Again, I'm not saying they're right. I'm saying it's a valid approach to this game. It's worked for 6 years now, which - for all we know - has already exceeded their expectations. And even with attrition, I think if they continue to run this game in exactly the same way they are now, it'll have another good half-decade in it.</p>

[Kigneer]

<p><cite>Iskandar wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Kigneer wrote:</cite></p><blockquote>But for the new player, EQ2 can be a v-e-r-y lonely place. It's very long on the tooth with an old culture with social networks almost old as the graphical browser. Getting "in" is an epic journey itself.</blockquote><p>Kig, I've seen you posting quite a bit on this theme lately in several of the forums here, and I gotta say... I'm afraid I just don't see it. The only obstacle I see is the class-based structure of the game, which can be limiting for some classes (a group only needs just so many tanks, after all). But pickup groups are the backbone of EQ2 (and every other MMO out there, as well), with a constant flow of players for one instance or event or quest update or AA run or raid after the other. Sure, some folks are gonna be clique-ish, preferring to play with their friends or guildies -- but the majority are just lookin for a good run with "whoever." And really, that's pretty much the way it is in <strong>ANY</strong> game, whether it's an MMO or a multiplayer shoot-em-up.</p></blockquote><p>I do.</p><p>Let's take the examples again.</p><p>EQ2 stuck on the myth questline. Why?</p><p>1. Not enough interest (or players) to raid.</p><p>2. Access to VP was closed but to a few raid guild that sold slots.</p><p>3. If you didn't know the "right people" forget getting in any raid out side those selling slots.</p><p>4. Aversion to that idea of buying epics.</p><p>WoW got all the way to the LK in ICC (VP in EQ2). Why?</p><p>1. Enough interest (plenty of PuRs) to raid.</p><p>2. Access to ICC was open to anyone, no guild holding a stranglehold on content.</p><p>3. Have gear, will travel (never enough players to fill all the raids...can you imagine 5 VP raids going on as PuRs prime time???). </p><p>4. No need to buy any epic, you earned them.</p><p>Now which game, as a new player, would you play?</p><p><em>The one with most access.</em></p><p>Access is there because WoW isn't a closed society. They're greedy and what their epics, as all those alts need them, anyway (WoW you can have 50 alts, so yeah, no guild can control raid loot for long).</p>

[Kigneer]

<p><cite>Iskandar wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Now if they'd just <strong><em>promote</em></strong> their product to <strong><em>get</em></strong> that growth....</p></blockquote><p>Don't think it'll happen.</p><p>For one this game's engine is already past it's prime. Graphics "rule" in games now (it's not 1998 anymore). One look, and these guys with their SLI rigs that live on a diet of DX11 graphics, will bolt. When they bolt they take their bad impressions with them, "Ah, man I played that game. It looked awful". Add that it takes a decent rig to even play EQ2 cutting the "mom and pop" market down (classic MMOs will attract older players who are not into the latest and greatest system builds), too.</p><p>Another thing is, again, the community. Honestly don't believe this community could withstand the influx of enough new players. So much to shift the control from the community now to them. It'll become a turf battle of the "old timers" vs "new players". A fight, I doubt SoE wants to even bother with at this time and age.</p><p>EQNext looks like the only saving grace. New engine. New game. New influx of gamers (and too many without any idea of the EQ2 turf battles). If SoE doesn't advertize the hell out of EQNext, you'll know why they won't -- content with a niche market and wanting to cater to such market.</p><p>Personally, if only EQNext would've been available now, it could bleed all those dissatisfied with Blizzard's Cata, which could be at least a hundred thousand (which for this community is a huge population growth). There's enough players looking for that "new" MMO, and not wanting to play GW2 or SW:TOR.</p>

[Fudged]

<p><cite>Kigneer wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p> There's enough players looking for that "new" MMO, and not wanting to play GW2 or SW:TOR.</p></blockquote><p>And enough players have been talking about Rift to make it an attractive alternative</p>

[scruffylookin]

<p><cite>Kigneer wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Iskandar wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Now if they'd just <strong><em>promote</em></strong> their product to <strong><em>get</em></strong> that growth....</p></blockquote><p>Don't think it'll happen.</p><p>For one this game's engine is already past it's prime. Graphics "rule" in games now (it's not 1998 anymore). One look, and these guys with their SLI rigs that live on a diet of DX11 graphics, will bolt. When they bolt they take their bad impressions with them, "Ah, man I played that game. It looked awful". Add that it takes a decent rig to even play EQ2 cutting the "mom and pop" market down (classic MMOs will attract older players who are not into the latest and greatest system builds), too.</p><p>Another thing is, again, the community. Honestly don't believe this community could withstand the influx of enough new players. So much to shift the control from the community now to them. It'll become a turf battle of the "old timers" vs "new players". A fight, I doubt SoE wants to even bother with at this time and age.</p><p>EQNext looks like the only saving grace. New engine. New game. New influx of gamers (and too many without any idea of the EQ2 turf battles). If SoE doesn't advertize the hell out of EQNext, you'll know why they won't -- content with a niche market and wanting to cater to such market.</p><p>Personally, if only EQNext would've been available now, it could bleed all those dissatisfied with Blizzard's Cata, which could be at least a hundred thousand (which for this community is a huge population growth). There's enough players looking for that "new" MMO, and not wanting to play GW2 or SW:TOR.</p></blockquote><p>Agreed. If they're going to have a major marketing budget, I'm fairly sure it will be for EQNext, as the payload stands to be much stronger.</p><p>And don't get me wrong. I don't plan on going to EQNext (based on the very limited info I've seen). To me, EQ2 is an oasis of gaming. I started my MMO life with EQ and have since played almost every MMO on the market, and this is the one that fits my wife and me best. We love it here and have no plans to leave.</p><p>But to be honest, I would rather see it a niche game, making modest profits, than a huge seller. Sure, giant numbers would bring far grander content, but I personally think the price is too high. I'm happy here.</p>

[Iskandar]

<p><cite>scruffylookin wrote:</cite></p><blockquote>Personally - and keep in mind this is pure speculation with nothing to back it up really - I think SOE has determined what they expect the lifespan of this game to be and are promoting (or not promoting) accordingly. I don't think large growth is a goal for them on this game. I bet EQNext will get what you're asking for.</blockquote><p>Honestly, I think ya may be right -- I wouldn't be surprised if it were true, at least. I do hope you're <em><strong>not</strong></em> though! <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/49869fe8223507d7223db3451e5321aa.gif" border="0" /></p>

[SageGaspar]

<p><cite>Kigneer wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I do.</p><p>Let's take the examples again.</p><p>EQ2 stuck on the myth questline. Why?</p><p>1. Not enough interest (or players) to raid.</p><p>2. Access to VP was closed but to a few raid guild that sold slots.</p><p>3. If you didn't know the "right people" forget getting in any raid out side those selling slots.</p><p>4. Aversion to that idea of buying epics.</p><p>WoW got all the way to the LK in ICC (VP in EQ2). Why?</p><p>1. Enough interest (plenty of PuRs) to raid.</p><p>2. Access to ICC was open to anyone, no guild holding a stranglehold on content.</p><p>3. Have gear, will travel (never enough players to fill all the raids...can you imagine 5 VP raids going on as PuRs prime time???). </p><p>4. No need to buy any epic, you earned them.</p><p>Now which game, as a new player, would you play?</p><p><em>The one with most access.</em></p><p>Access is there because WoW isn't a closed society. They're greedy and what their epics, as all those alts need them, anyway (WoW you can have 50 alts, so yeah, no guild can control raid loot for long).</p></blockquote><p>EQ2 Sentinel's Fate:</p><p>1. Pickup raids going on all the frickin time killing a decent way into Labs, the x2, easymode lair, palace.</p><p>2. Myth available for anyone capable of doing some medium difficulty heroics.</p><p>Let's not compare Kunark to 2010 WoW raiding.</p>

[feldon30]

Veeshan's Peak pickup raids were de rigueur in TSO. Hell people are 1-grouping Protector's Realm now. I think Kigneer/Foreen just didn't talk to the right people.

[Sigtyr]

<p><cite>feldon30 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote>Veeshan's Peak pickup raids were de rigueur in TSO. Hell people are 1-grouping Protector's Realm now. I think Kigneer/Foreen just didn't talk to the right people.</blockquote><p><span style="font-size: small; font-family: georgia,palatino; color: #00ff00;">My thoughts about EQ2 are close to Kigneers but not similar but what strikes me is the huge difference in how people like me and Kigneer see the game and its community and how others see it. I do think that the "dumbing down" of EQ2 has not really done anything to remove the barriers between old/new players and frequent/infrequent players if anything they have been made higher. I read all about things being able to be one grouped and how easy soandso and this and that is but I do not see any way for me and my wife to experience it mot likely because we have been thoroughly demoralised by the talk on how "skilled and equipped" you have to be to do anything remotely challenging. </span></p>

[Rainmare]

<p>alot of what you see about things being 'so easy' is often, frankly, by high end raiders. thier gear makes them insanely powerful compared to you. I mean like mike tyson trying to beat up Zeus. there's still alot of content to be done for a duo...but in Sf your pretty much limited to the Hole dungeon and the overland. most instances for a heroicly geared group will still need prolly at least 4 people to do. your tank, your healer, and a buffer/dps or a pair of dps.</p><p>Kigneer talks about all these pickup raids adn such that are constantly forming in WoW...but from what I gather in WoW, there's no such thing as loot selling....or it's virtually non-existant. as most of the 'best' gear is bought with tokens you have to earn usually in PVP or faction grinds.</p><p>in EQ2, you can buy that gear...the high end guilds will sell it. so people who probably would be interested in 'pick up raids' don't becuase they'd rather buy thier VP/Munzok/Miragul/UD/Theer drops then progress though the zones to get to a point to kill it themselves.</p><p>Kigneer talks about Pickup raids going after the Lich King...During his expansion. the equivilent of that here would be pickup raids being able to kill Theer. doesn't happen. One od WoW's greatest draws, and I would say it's long term achillies heel, is how simple it is. a script like Pera or theer or probably even Toxx would be insanely hard/impossible to a WoW player.</p><p>the difference in difficultly is almost like comparing geometry to calculous.</p><p>Eq2 while it has been dumbed down signifigantly from it's inception...it still one of the few out there that has some semblance of challenge...probided you are in the right 'tier' for what your doing.the problem is the raider vurn through it like candy in thier riad gear. they complain it's too easy...and belittle those that can't rip through it like tissuepaper. which discourages those that it is a challenge for...so they don't bother adn then you got situations like you were your a duo wgo can't find other people. your 'not good enough' for the raiders DPS/HPS/Time in zone benchmarks, but the people equal to you have all but given up hope becuase the raiders have demoralized them to the point of 'if I'm not as good at the raiders say I need to be I'll fail'</p>

[dawy]

<p><cite>Kigneer wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>dawy wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Honestly if you're trying to lay (some) the blame of EQ2 at flames's door then this game really is in trouble in my view that site has done more good than bad for the game,at the very least its a place to go to vent or just say what you feel when the ban hammer's being used round here.</p></blockquote><p>Look at the "front door".</p><p>If they are a new player, totally oblivious of the EQ franchise, <em>what do they see?</em></p><p>Are you familiar with 4chan?</p><p>EQ2, as a community, has some PR issues in itself. One hand they claim the ingame community is "mature". Goto EQ2Flames, do you see a mature community?</p><p>WoW they don't need such sites, they let it all hang out in the open (thick skin? Naw, you need a shovel). EQ2 they hide it like a dirty magazine behind a brown wrapper, tucked in the backroom. A peeping-tom is how they learn about it, and often after they have been "exposed" by him.</p></blockquote><p>With respect to you sir your post is utter nonsense i read more than i post at flames and see pretty much the same sort of arguements there as here,granted with added swearing but the arguements are pretty much the same nontheless.</p><p>For my money what made this game unique in the early days was sites like flames backed to a point by SOE nothing works against a games like censorship of forums and to have a place to go and sound off for good or bad in the game was refreshing,indeed if i were a new player coming upon that site it would make me want to play thee game or at least have a look at it at the very least.</p>

[Woody67]

<p>If you were not a forum reader would you even see any thing related to the next expansion for EQ2? I suspect you would have a hard time in just casual searching. For a test i went to the SOE.com page and noticed the following:</p><p>There is a big banner running along the top that advertises:</p><p>1. James Patterson's Catch a Killer free play game</p><p>2. Wildlife Refuge</p><p>3. Clone Wars</p><p>4. Everquest 2 Extended</p><p>5. Everquest: The House of Thule expansion</p><p>6.DC Universe Online</p><p>7. Pox Nora</p><p>8. Free Realms</p><p>Below that are 5 buttons which show The catch a killer game, Wild Life Refuge, Clone Wars, EQ 1 and Finally EQ 2. First mention on the page.</p><p>Below the 5 buttons is another selection screen , first one shown is  most popular showing nine titles: Clone Wars, Free Realms, The Agency: Covert Ops, Pox Nora, Star Wars Galaxies, EverQuest 1, Legends of Norrath, DC Online, and finally Vanguard Saga of Heroes. No mention of EQ2 there.</p><p>On the free trials tab there are 4 titles, EQ1, Star Wars Galaxies, Legends of Norrath and Vanguard. Once again no EQ 2.</p><p>THis is on the main Sony page, 4 of those games mentioned are facebooks, Vanguard hasnt even had an expansion released to my knowledge and Star Wars is just there. DC online hasnt even been released yet for god's sake and its in the most popular? Granted it opens tomorrow but still!</p><p>Ok so maybe the only spot that mentions EQ 2 may be a point of reference for some information. I click on it hoping to be proven wrong but alas alack and all the other sayings not a freaking bit of news. On that banner board were offered the following:</p><p>1. EQ 2 passport</p><p>2.Recruit a Friend</p><p>3. Everquest 2: Fortune Legue on Facebook</p><p>4. Velious Winter Rewards</p><p>5. Arcanum Revealed</p><p>6. Everquest 2 extended</p><p>7. The latest Legends of Norrath Expansion</p><p>8. An EQ2 theme store</p><p>Even on the very page that the game is based off of there is not a link or any information about the upcoming expansion. The only thing i have found on an official website for EQ2 that even relates to the upcoming expansion (in less than a month if the only announced date is even close) is the little banner on the top of the official forums.</p><p>I am just simply amazed by the total lack of any effort at all. Has anyone ever heard of any type of game that is scheduled to be released (supposidly) in less than a month with so little information at all being given out?</p><p>If it wasnt for a bunch of folks that i have played online with for years joining up over the summer I am not sure I would have any desire to continue on in these lands. Doing this bit of research just really cranked up the old cranky cynical geezer side of me and makes me wonder why I should even be surprised with the current situation.</p>

[Anestacia]

<p>I have to say that I am a bit confused on this subject as well.  Last year the expansion <a href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?topic_id=462534" target="_blank">Pre order details</a> were released in early November with an actual release date of a week later than ours is this year.  A date change doesnt seem like an issue since it was announced to be the 8th, recently confirmed by Smokejumper that it was still on track for the 8th and the Winter rewards (Vampire/Wolf) still say they will be awarded on the 8th.  And honestly a date change would be extremley detremental to this expansions release as many have made plans for that date.</p><p>The only thing I can think of is that it will be a direct download ONLY, but some inticement for the non beta participants to actually advertise it to atleast your own players would be a good idea imo...and soon.</p>

[Kaszan]

<p>People have been asking about this for some time now, It would be nice if a red name would pop in and give thier community some.. any.. information.</p>

[theriatis]

<p>Hi,</p><p>as i wanted to take a leave from work for Velious (and i have to enter it in our Vacation-Sheet at least 2 weeks before), is there anything new about "will we be able to get DoV on 8. February" ?</p><p>Especially the EU Portion had their Problems with SF last year; i wouldn't want to enter my vacation for 9-11 February and be not able to cancel it and no DoV anywhere, or 2 weeks later...</p><p>Regards, theriatis.</p>

[avrid]

<p>maybe the marketing team ment that pre order info would be up on feb 8th? it is quite odd that no information is availble and its less then a month away</p>

[PotatoeGuru]

<p>I too have a week's vacation scheduled around this time and wish they would confirm. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/1069449046bcd664c21db15b1dfedaee.gif" border="0" /></p>

[feldon30]

<p><cite>Sigtyr@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>feldon30 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote>Veeshan's Peak pickup raids were de rigueur in TSO. Hell people are 1-grouping Protector's Realm now. I think Kigneer/Foreen just didn't talk to the right people.</blockquote><p><span style="font-size: small; font-family: georgia,palatino; color: #00ff00;">My thoughts about EQ2 are close to Kigneers but not similar but what strikes me is the huge difference in how people like me and Kigneer see the game and its community and how others see it. I do think that the "dumbing down" of EQ2 has not really done anything to remove the barriers between old/new players and frequent/infrequent players if anything they have been made higher. I read all about things being able to be one grouped and how easy soandso and this and that is but I do not see any way for me and my wife to experience it mot likely because we have been thoroughly demoralised by the talk on how "skilled and equipped" you have to be to do anything remotely challenging. </span></p></blockquote><p>No expansion made more excellent gear available to casual players than The Shadow Odyssey. In Kunark, about the only really exceptional Fabled gear available to casual players was your Fabled Epic Weapon, and the Bangle of Thuuga from that long questline.</p><p>In contrast, TSO provided excellent armor and jewelry that could be acquired by 2-3 dedicated players.</p><p>I did the repeatable Elemental Cleansing quests in Lavastorm 3 times a day until I had enough elemental gems to buy the 2-3 pieces of excellent jewelry.</p><p>Some of the Void Shard missions only required killing mobs right inside the door (Commonlands -- Befallen #1) or only required running into the room to the immediate right and clicking on pages (Deep Forge). These could be done by a fighter/healer combo or a dps/mezzer combo. This is not to mention the daily solo mission, and let's face it, a LOT of people greyed out or mentored down TSO shard zones to make them easier.</p><p>I would say if right now, you are wearing level 72 or 82 mastercrafted gear and wanting to get into grouping at level 90, I would start by looking at the TSO armor and jewelry and use the Chronomage to mentor those zones down to level 80 and try Deep Forge and Befallen (Cavern of the Afflicted). You should be able to earn a few shards a day without the aid of a full group.</p><p>I would also jump into ANY group available. Doesn't matter if it's Deep Forge, the Library or Conservatory (The 2 easiest SF dungeons). You will get marks, shards, and a chance at armor or jewelry. You may not be able to get a dungeon run in the harder zones, but there are always Library runs happening.</p>