Current level 90 Population - 12/20/10

[Wasuna]

<p>Level 90 Only, All servers, 12/20/10</p><p>Shadow Knight - 7,331</p><p>Berserker - 4,127</p><p>Paladin - 4,086</p><p>Monk - 3,148</p><p>Brusier - 3,080</p><p>Guardian - 2,677</p><p>Expansion better bring something....</p>

[Aule]

You spelled "Bruiser" wrong /duck

[ccarro]

<p><cite>Wasuna wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Level 90 Only, All servers, 12/20/10</p><p>Shadow Knight - 7,331</p><p>Berserker - 4,127</p><p>Paladin - 4,086</p><p>Monk - 3,148</p><p>Brusier - 3,080</p><p>Guardian - 2,677</p><p>Expansion better bring something....</p></blockquote><p>What are these stats based off? If it's eq2players...that site has been broken for years.</p>

[Bruener]

<p><cite>Wasuna wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Level 90 Only, All servers, 12/20/10    <span style="color: #ff0000;">% Growth</span></p><p>Shadow Knight - 7,331                            <span style="color: #ff0000;">4.3</span></p><p>Berserker - 4,127                                   <span style="color: #ff0000;">4.6</span></p><p>Paladin - 4,086                                       <span style="color: #ff0000;">4.9</span></p><p>Monk - 3,148                                         <span style="color: #ff0000;">3.9</span></p><p>Brusier - 3,080                                      <span style="color: #ff0000;">4.2</span></p><p>Guardian - 2,677                                   <span style="color: #ff0000;">4.9</span></p><p>Expansion better bring something....</p></blockquote><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">Amazing what numbers can mean.</span></p>

[BChizzle]

<p><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Wasuna wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Level 90 Only, All servers, 12/20/10    <span style="color: #ff0000;">% Growth</span></p><p>Shadow Knight - 7,331                            <span style="color: #ff0000;">4.3</span></p><p>Berserker - 4,127                                   <span style="color: #ff0000;">4.6</span></p><p>Paladin - 4,086                                       <span style="color: #ff0000;">4.9</span></p><p>Monk - 3,148                                         <span style="color: #ff0000;">3.9</span></p><p>Brusier - 3,080                                      <span style="color: #ff0000;">4.2</span></p><p>Guardian - 2,677                                   <span style="color: #ff0000;">4.9</span></p><p>Expansion better bring something....</p></blockquote><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">Amazing what numbers can mean.</span></p></blockquote><p>OMG buff monks!  Nobody wants to play us <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

[Rahatmattata]

<p><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Wasuna wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Level 90 Only, All servers, 12/20/10    <span style="color: #ff0000;">% Growth</span></p><p>Shadow Knight - 7,331                            <span style="color: #ff0000;">4.3</span></p><p>Berserker - 4,127                                   <span style="color: #ff0000;">4.6</span></p><p>Paladin - 4,086                                       <span style="color: #ff0000;">4.9</span></p><p>Monk - 3,148                                         <span style="color: #ff0000;">3.9</span></p><p>Brusier - 3,080                                      <span style="color: #ff0000;">4.2</span></p><p>Guardian - 2,677                                   <span style="color: #ff0000;">4.9</span></p><p>Expansion better bring something....</p></blockquote><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">Amazing what numbers can mean.</span></p></blockquote><p>4% of 7.3k is a hell of a lot more than 5% of 2.7k.</p><p>An exaggerated analogy might be if you have 10 guards and 1,000 shadowknights... if 5 more people made guards that would be a population explosion of 50%... but you still only have 15 guards. However if 100 new shadowknights appeared, well that would only be an increase of 10%, much less of an increase than guards.... but the sk increase was still 10 times the entire population of guards.</p><p>You fail brownie boy, give it up.</p>

[Bruener]

<p>No, Rat-boy.  I showed exactly what I wanted to show.  % Growth per class.</p><p>In fact that number shows that eventually going at the current rate Guards will catch up and pass SKs.  Eventually.  In fact the numbers from the time before show a similar gain.</p><p>Of course me trying to use just those numbers as a representation of how classes are is stupid...just like the OP.</p>

[Rahatmattata]

<p>There's another ~130ish guards vs. another ~500ish shadowknights... but hey, whatever you say champ. You try too hard.</p>

[Beef_Supre]

<p>Bruener, surely you don't believe your own argument?</p><p>It was just explained that if you had 5% growth for a population of 10, and a 5% growth for a population of 1000, it would be a LOT bigger increase for the population of 1000. This means there are a boatload more new SK's being made every day then there are Guardians, Bruisers, etc.</p><p>Anyway, as the numbers have shown for a long, long time, SK's are very powerful and very well liked because of it.</p><p>Arguing anything else is .. well, silly.</p><p>I get that you don't like being told your class is easy mode, because you probably work hard at being as good as you can. Good on you for that.</p><p>I don't think, however, that anyone playing an SK can argue that they aren't the most blessed Tank, and arguably class, in the game. The imbalance warrants addressing, and someone showing these numbers is just trying to get that imbalance out in the open.</p>

[Landiin]

He proves it yet again! Self ownage is so sad.

[Prestissimo]

<p><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>In fact that number shows that eventually going at the current rate Guards will catch up and pass SKs.  Eventually.</p></blockquote><p>ROFL that is an awesome self own. Absolutely delicious.</p><p>(4.3% of 7331 puts SKs at 7646 next measure if the rate stays the same {315 more} and 4.9% of 2677 puts guards at 2808 next measure if the rate stays the same {131 more}. Guards can't possibly catch up to the SK population until they pass the SK growth rate which at 4.3% growth rate means guards need anything above 11.77% growth rate before they start catching up.)</p><p>Anywho, the interesting thing to note is actually that all classes are increasing at similar rates.  Not that these increases are the same number or that these numbers reflect the state of class balance or the desireability of the class in certain settings, but rather that there is growth between all fighters and that the rates are similiar % increases.</p><p>This stands to reason that the overall growth of EQ2 is quite even proportionately speaking. This stands to reason that there might be more balance than many people like to admit. Sure, each class has something they excel at and something they stink at and certain classes have much larger advantages than others at this point in the big picture, and theres still between 1.75X and 2.75X the amount of shadowknights as any other fighter class, but the population growth rate indicates that relatively speaking there isn't a screaming increase in one class over the other proportionately.</p><p>I think there are imbalances in the fighters, as does anyone thats being realistic with themselves, but also I think that these imbalances are much less significant than they were a year ago which means things are going in the right direction slowly but gradually for now. Giving a reason for all the fighter populations to surge up to the same level of SKs would mean the other fighters need to be OP, and causing shadowknights to fall back into the range of the other fighters would mean to significantly [Removed for Content] them. Neither answer is good, so IMO, the best solution is to take those statistics for what they are worth: a comparison of how many new players are chosing which fighter classes.</p>

[Silzin]

<blockquote><blockquote><p>Level 90 Only, All servers, 12/20/10  <span style="color: #ffff00;">12/1/10</span>   <span style="color: #ff0000;">Growth</span></p><p>Shadow Knight -                 7,331       <span style="color: #ffff00;"> 6,868</span>     <span style="color: #ff0000;">463</span></p><p>Berserker -                        4,127        <span style="color: #ffff00;">3,843</span>     <span style="color: #ff0000;">284</span></p><p>Paladin -                           4,086        <span style="color: #ffff00;">3,828</span>     <span style="color: #ff0000;">258</span></p><p>Monk -                             3,148        <span style="color: #ffff00;"> 2,953</span>     <span style="color: #ff0000;">195</span></p><p>Brusier -                           3,080         <span style="color: #ffff00;">2,894</span>     <span style="color: #ff0000;">186</span></p><p>Guardian -                        2,677         <span style="color: #ffff00;">2,510</span>     <span style="color: #ff0000;">167</span></p></blockquote></blockquote><p>I am not sure where the numbers are coming from so i dont know how accurate they are, but assuming they are. Seeing the actual amount of growth in the classes in the last 20 days is staggering to see between the classes and i don’t see how people can say that it is growing even.</p><p>edit: spelling</p>

[Wasuna]

<p>As Mark Twain said, Lies, [Removed for Content] Lies and then Stastics. That's concept is why I only post the raw numbers. Breuner is using percentages to once again defelct attention to try and protect his prefered class.</p><p>Using a bit of algebra it's easy to point out his logic flaw. His argument that Guardian polulation is actually growing at a faster RATE than the SK population seems to be correct. That being said, the Guardian population will catch the SK Population in <strong>155,133 days</strong>. This happens to be <strong>425 years and some change</strong>.</p><p>Once again, his argument is outside of relaity and only proves that he can add, subtract, multiply and divide. That isn't logic, it's manipulation of numbers.</p>

[Beef_Supre]

<p><cite>Wasuna wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>As Mark Twain said, Lies, [Removed for Content] Lies and then Stastics. That's concept is why I only post the raw numbers. Breuner is using percentages to once again defelct attention to try and protect his prefered class.</p><p>Using a bit of algebra it's easy to point out his logic flaw. His argument that Guardian polulation is actually growing at a faster RATE than the SK population seems to be correct. That being said, the Guardian population will catch the SK Population in <strong>155,133 days</strong>. This happens to be <strong>425 years and some change</strong>.</p><p>Once again, his argument is outside of relaity and only proves that he can add, subtract, multiply and divide. That isn't logic, it's manipulation of numbers.</p></blockquote><p>I really enjoyed this post, and can't believe Bruener actually used the argument that the % of growth being similar as a point in his favor.</p><p>It cracked me up, and I've never even bothered posting in this argument until this thread .. but his logic and reasoning were so terrible, I couldn't resist chiming in.</p><p>Again, if you were offered a 5% amount of 7 million dollars, or a 5% amount of 2.5 million dollars.. which do you think is bigger? Think it's the same amount, just because it's the same percentage? Bwahahahah.... yeah, that's what you were trying to argue, Bruener. Nice.</p>

[Bruener]

<p><cite>Beef_Supreme wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Wasuna wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>As Mark Twain said, Lies, [Removed for Content] Lies and then Stastics. That's concept is why I only post the raw numbers. Breuner is using percentages to once again defelct attention to try and protect his prefered class.</p><p>Using a bit of algebra it's easy to point out his logic flaw. His argument that Guardian polulation is actually growing at a faster RATE than the SK population seems to be correct. That being said, the Guardian population will catch the SK Population in <strong>155,133 days</strong>. This happens to be <strong>425 years and some change</strong>.</p><p>Once again, his argument is outside of relaity and only proves that he can add, subtract, multiply and divide. That isn't logic, it's manipulation of numbers.</p></blockquote><p>I really enjoyed this post, and can't believe Bruener actually used the argument that the % of growth being similar as a point in his favor.</p><p>It cracked me up, and I've never even bothered posting in this argument until this thread .. but his logic and reasoning were so terrible, I couldn't resist chiming in.</p><p>Again, if you were offered a 5% amount of 7 million dollars, or a 5% amount of 2.5 million dollars.. which do you think is bigger? Think it's the same amount, just because it's the same percentage? Bwahahahah.... yeah, that's what you were trying to argue, Bruener. Nice.</p></blockquote><p>At least Wasuna had the knowledge to figure out what I was saying and spell it out.  Its not hard to figure out that if something is growing at a higher % that eventually it will surpass the item growing at a lower %.  When I said eventually they would surpass SKs it was sarcasm with a hint of truth since the numbers drawn out show exactly that possibility.</p><p>So, despite your ignorance at least my argument brings forth some facts.  To help you understand lets say you could have an investment of 1 million growing at 5%, or 2 million growing at 1%.  Eventually the 1 million compounding becomes greater than the 2 million investment.  Your mistake is trying to compare different amounts of money at the same interest rate, and that is not what I compared at all.</p><p>Really I accomplished exactly what I wanted.  Opening some eyes as to the same growth model per fighters.  As somebody said that is probably a good representation of classes being balanced.  The skew in the amount of fighters shows the enjoyability of one class over another.  Again the argument that Wasuna refuses to recognizes with his lame numbers is that Guards are mundane to play due to their role-play and mechanics while SKs are much more enjoyable to play due to their role-play and mechanics.  The only way he can hope to balance those numbers is to completely unbalance Guards and make them beyond the powerhouses they were in RoK far above other tanks.  Meanwhile the only way to decrease the SK gains is to completely [Removed for Content] them to pre-tso SK status to stop their growth.</p>

[Wasuna]

<p>Again, Lies, [Removed for Content] Lies and then Statistics. Your focusing on the RATE of growth of each class compared to their own class. That does nothing but show that each class is growing. Hence each class having a positive rate. Your comparision of those growth rates as even a small suggestion that classes are even marginally balanced is a serious logic flaw.</p><p>Logic would say that if classes were balanced then the rate of growth for the classes would be roughly equal based on total fighter population growth not the individual class growth.</p><p>Example of Balance:</p><p>600 new fighters reach level 90 over a set time period. For there to be balance then each fighter class should gain 100 new level 90's to their class over that time period. Of course there is randomness in all of this so the numbers should bounce around a bit but the longer there is a disparity between the actual poupulation gains the more evedince that is that there is no balance.</p><p>I'm a bit embarassed that I have to explain this to you as it implies you don't think logically but hopefully this helps.</p>

[Prestissimo]

<p>You're no less wrong about the growth rates though Bruener. The guard population will never catch up with the SK population if they remain at similar % rates with their current population. Like I said previously, if the SKs stay at 4.3% growth rate off prestanding population, the guards must be at 11.77% growth rate of prestanding population in order to break dead even and anything above 11.77% is more growth for the guardians than the SKs in which case they can start to catch up. Your $1m at 5% and $2m at 1% is no where even close to whats happening here, and we are all 100% aware of the concept and understand it perfectly well. If you add 463 to a number and add 167 to a number, and keep increasing at these rates, that 167 rate will NEVER catch up to the 463 rate; just get further away from it. That is the part of my post you should have double posted rather than the part about the growth rate potentially being indicitive of balance when it comes to choices of new fighters. The reasoning for my commenting it might be potentially indicitive of balance is explained out below and you really should take the time to read it to know why I said that.</p><p>You actually self owned again by trying to back track and then trying to twist my words into your favor. I'm going to add into the chart the % of the new fighters hitting 90 that belong to each of the 6 classes.</p><p><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Wasuna wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Level 90 Only, All servers, 12/20/10  <span style="color: #00ff00;">Growth</span>    <span style="color: #ff0000;">% Growth (of population)   <span style="color: #0000ff;">% of the new fighters</span></span></p><p>Shadow Knight                 + 7,331      <span style="color: #00ff00;">+ 463</span>     <span style="color: #ff0000;">+</span> <span style="color: #ff0000;">4.3%                               <span style="color: #0000ff;">+ 29.81%</span></span></p><p>Berserker                        + 4,127       <span style="color: #00ff00;">+ 284</span>     <span style="color: #ff0000;">+ 4.6%                              <span style="color: #0000ff;">+ 18.28%</span></span></p><p>Paladin                            + 4,086      <span style="color: #00ff00;">+ 258</span>     <span style="color: #ff0000;">+ 4.9%                               <span style="color: #0000ff;">+ 16.61%</span></span></p><p>Monk                               + 3,148      <span style="color: #00ff00;">+ </span><span style="color: #ff0000;"><span style="color: #00ff00;">195</span>     + 3.9%                               <span style="color: #0000ff;">+ 12.55%</span></span></p><p>Brusier                            + 3,080       <span style="color: #00ff00;">+ </span><span style="color: #ff0000;"><span style="color: #00ff00;">186</span>     + 4.2%                              <span style="color: #0000ff;">+ 11.97%</span></span></p><p>Guardian                          + 2,677       <span style="color: #00ff00;">+ </span><span style="color: #ff0000;"><span style="color: #00ff00;">167</span>     + 4.9%                             <span style="color: #0000ff;">+ 10.75%</span></span></p><p>Expansion better bring something....</p></blockquote><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">Amazing what numbers can mean. <span style="color: #0000ff;">Yes, it really is amazing just what numbers can mean.</span></span></p></blockquote><p><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite></p><blockquote>To help you understand lets say you could have an investment of 1 million growing at 5%, or 2 million growing at 1%.  Eventually the 1 million compounding becomes greater than the 2 million investment.  Your mistake is trying to compare different amounts of money at the same interest rate, and that is not what I compared at all.</blockquote><p>You so did just try to compare "2 completely different" numbers "at the same interest rates". I cannot fathom how you could possibly think comparing 7,331 at 4.3% and 2,677 at 4.9% is not</p><p><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite></p> <blockquote>trying to compare different amounts of <span style="color: #ff0000;">fighters</span> at the same <span style="color: #ff0000;">growth</span> rate, and that is not what I compared at all.</blockquote><p>My post about it being proportionately balanced is based on the assumption that in the past fighter balance has always been either "imbalanced", "broke", or "oh em gee hold onto yer buttz it's gonna be ubar borked soon with this GU". GU13, Buckler line for warriors, SK buff, and paladin healing, as prime examples sequentially.</p><p>A vastly large number of the fighters I talk to that actually play their fighter as more than an alt did not follow the flavor of the month class but rather talked to many folks and chose what sounded like what they wanted or were refered to the class by a pre-existing cap level fighter main. Based on that you could assume that people that will actually play their class alot and not be just another power leveled alt lumped into a statistic are to a degree being refered from the already existing population.</p><p>Assuming that it's primarily fighters that are the ones refering new players to play certain fighters, you could say that similar growth rates based on prestanding population means that the 6 different classes are encouraging proportionately the same amount of new fighters per capita of pre-existing fighters per class.</p><p>You should note that all of those are assumptions and all of those are based purely on subjective trends I've noticed in a large number of new fighters backgrounds while doing PUGs. All of these statements in this explaination are HIGHLY assumed and are included more so for the sake of it being interesting and imo something that falls completely outside of the ability to be taken as fact in any way. Besides, you should know exactly what happens when you assume....</p><p>Edit: literalized a statement so it can't be twisted.</p>

[Bruener]

<p>Without completely reposting all your mis-info and how you completely twisted the statistics to your wants what people fail to recognize is that the difference in numbers is more from how a class plays in game-play instead of this idea of "power" that the OP wants you to believe.</p><p>Yes, Guards SUCK to play.</p><p>Yes, SKs are fun as hell to play.</p><p>Either you completely destroy Guard identity and make them an entirely differnent class....a.k.a. Zerker, or make the Guard so OP'd that their play-style doesn't matter because everybody would be stupid not to use one (RoK), or Guards accept their identity as the most defensive active damage reducing tank in the game.</p><p>Yes, Guards could use a bump to some DPS.  But the more DPS you add the more they start looking exactly like their counterpart Zerk and suddenly we have another Monk/Bruiser identity crisis issue.</p>

[Prestissimo]

<p>Except that in TSO SKs were so rediculously OP that in your words would be stupid to not be using one just like guards were in RoK. Thats why the SK population blew up to the level they are at currently in the first place.</p><p>So perhaps if they were all to start from scratch right now it would be based much more largely on how they play, but it still is an undeniable fact that their population exploded because they were just plain simple the most lucritive fighter class to play for a large portion of a recent expansion and the numbers are still being influenced largely by that fact.</p><p>Edit: to clarify a grey statement.</p>

[Rahatmattata]

<p>It always amazes me Brownie Berries continues to post and defend his argument even after epic self ownage and getting his posts ripped to shreds by the community. GG dude.</p>

[Aull]

<p><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Without completely reposting all your mis-info and how you completely twisted the statistics to your wants what people fail to recognize is that the difference in numbers is more from how a class plays in game-play instead of this idea of "power" that the OP wants you to believe.</p><p>Yes, Guards SUCK to play.</p><p>Yes, SKs are fun as hell to play.</p><p>Either you completely destroy Guard identity and make them an entirely differnent class....a.k.a. Zerker, or make the Guard so OP'd that their play-style doesn't matter because everybody would be stupid not to use one (RoK), or Guards accept their identity as the most defensive active damage reducing tank in the game.</p><p><span style="color: #00ff00; font-size: small;"><strong>Yes, Guards could use a bump to some DPS.  But the more DPS you add the more they start looking exactly like their counterpart Zerk and suddenly we have another Monk/Bruiser identity crisis issue.</strong></span></p></blockquote><p>I agree with Bruener on this.</p>

[Grumpy_Warrior_01]

<p><cite>Orai@Butcherblock wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Except that in TSO SKs were so rediculously OP that in your words would be stupid to not be using one just like guards were in RoK. Thats why the SK population blew up to the level they are at currently in the first place.</p></blockquote><p>Pointing out once again that any comparison between the "ROK" guardian and the current-day SK is flawed.  The fact is, being a supposedly OP guardian for those few days between February and July of 2008 (first discovery of the guardian epic and first guardian nerf) required the combination of an AA line and a specific piece of gear acquired deep in the most difficult raid dungeon in the entire game.  The weapon and the AA line were both obliterated with nerfs within a few months.  Meanwhile, EVERY crusader that has popped out of the character creation screen since two years ago has been overpowered from the ground up, simply by virtue of class and the abilities bestowed on the class, not dependent on an ultra-rare (at the time) weapon.</p><p>You are talking about a <span style="text-decoration: underline;">handful</span> of top-top-end guardians being supposedly overpowered for a few months, as opposed to <span style="text-decoration: underline;">thousands</span> of SK's being blatantly overpowered continuously for two years.</p>

[Aull]

<p><cite>Grumpy_Warrior_01 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Orai@Butcherblock wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Except that in TSO SKs were so rediculously OP that in your words would be stupid to not be using one just like guards were in RoK. Thats why the SK population blew up to the level they are at currently in the first place.</p></blockquote><p>Pointing out once again that any comparison between the "ROK" guardian and the current-day SK is flawed.  The fact is, being a supposedly OP guardian for those few days between February and July of 2008 (first discovery of the guardian epic and first guardian nerf) required the combination of an AA line and a specific piece of gear acquired deep in the most difficult raid dungeon in the entire game.  The weapon and the AA line were both obliterated with nerfs within a few months.  Meanwhile, EVERY crusader that has popped out of the character creation screen since two years ago has been overpowered from the ground up, simply by virtue of class and the abilities bestowed on the class, not dependent on an ultra-rare (at the time) weapon.</p><p>You are talking about a <span style="text-decoration: underline;">handful</span> of top-top-end guardians being supposedly overpowered for a few months, as opposed to <span style="text-decoration: underline;">thousands</span> of SK's being blatantly overpowered continuously for two years.</p></blockquote><p>Awesome post.</p>

[RafaelSmith]

<p><cite>Grumpy_Warrior_01 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Orai@Butcherblock wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Except that in TSO SKs were so rediculously OP that in your words would be stupid to not be using one just like guards were in RoK. Thats why the SK population blew up to the level they are at currently in the first place.</p></blockquote><p>Pointing out once again that any comparison between the "ROK" guardian and the current-day SK is flawed.  The fact is, being a supposedly OP guardian for those few days between February and July of 2008 (first discovery of the guardian epic and first guardian nerf) required the combination of an AA line and a specific piece of gear acquired deep in the most difficult raid dungeon in the entire game.  The weapon and the AA line were both obliterated with nerfs within a few months.  Meanwhile, EVERY crusader that has popped out of the character creation screen since two years ago has been overpowered from the ground up, simply by virtue of class and the abilities bestowed on the class, not dependent on an ultra-rare (at the time) weapon.</p><p>You are talking about a <span style="text-decoration: underline;">handful</span> of top-top-end guardians being supposedly overpowered for a few months, as opposed to <span style="text-decoration: underline;">thousands</span> of SK's being blatantly overpowered continuously for two years.</p></blockquote><p>+1</p><p>I think everyone pretty much agrees that with the best raid gear in the game all the tank classes pretty much equal/balance out.</p><p>What some fail to realize is that that does not equal class balance.</p>

[Orthureon]

<p>Both Crusaders are grossly overpowered and need to be looked at. With the recent heal crit nerf SKs are superior to Paladins by a slight margin.</p>

[Aull]

<p><cite>Gaylon@Mistmoore wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Grumpy_Warrior_01 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Orai@Butcherblock wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Except that in TSO SKs were so rediculously OP that in your words would be stupid to not be using one just like guards were in RoK. Thats why the SK population blew up to the level they are at currently in the first place.</p></blockquote><p>Pointing out once again that any comparison between the "ROK" guardian and the current-day SK is flawed.  The fact is, being a supposedly OP guardian for those few days between February and July of 2008 (first discovery of the guardian epic and first guardian nerf) required the combination of an AA line and a specific piece of gear acquired deep in the most difficult raid dungeon in the entire game.  The weapon and the AA line were both obliterated with nerfs within a few months.  Meanwhile, EVERY crusader that has popped out of the character creation screen since two years ago has been overpowered from the ground up, simply by virtue of class and the abilities bestowed on the class, not dependent on an ultra-rare (at the time) weapon.</p><p>You are talking about a <span style="text-decoration: underline;">handful</span> of top-top-end guardians being supposedly overpowered for a few months, as opposed to <span style="text-decoration: underline;">thousands</span> of SK's being blatantly overpowered continuously for two years.</p></blockquote><p>+1</p><p>I think everyone pretty much agrees that with the best raid gear in the game all the tank classes pretty much equal/balance out.</p><p>What some fail to realize is that that does not equal class balance.</p></blockquote><p>Yep. However some fighters are able to excell better in everyday norrath ventures where some are only able shine in the raid environment.</p>

[RafaelSmith]

<p><cite>Aull wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Gaylon@Mistmoore wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Grumpy_Warrior_01 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Orai@Butcherblock wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Except that in TSO SKs were so rediculously OP that in your words would be stupid to not be using one just like guards were in RoK. Thats why the SK population blew up to the level they are at currently in the first place.</p></blockquote><p>Pointing out once again that any comparison between the "ROK" guardian and the current-day SK is flawed.  The fact is, being a supposedly OP guardian for those few days between February and July of 2008 (first discovery of the guardian epic and first guardian nerf) required the combination of an AA line and a specific piece of gear acquired deep in the most difficult raid dungeon in the entire game.  The weapon and the AA line were both obliterated with nerfs within a few months.  Meanwhile, EVERY crusader that has popped out of the character creation screen since two years ago has been overpowered from the ground up, simply by virtue of class and the abilities bestowed on the class, not dependent on an ultra-rare (at the time) weapon.</p><p>You are talking about a <span style="text-decoration: underline;">handful</span> of top-top-end guardians being supposedly overpowered for a few months, as opposed to <span style="text-decoration: underline;">thousands</span> of SK's being blatantly overpowered continuously for two years.</p></blockquote><p>+1</p><p>I think everyone pretty much agrees that with the best raid gear in the game all the tank classes pretty much equal/balance out.</p><p>What some fail to realize is that that does not equal class balance.</p></blockquote><p>Yep. However some fighters are able to excell better in everyday norrath ventures where some are only able shine in the raid environment.</p></blockquote><p>And a few get to excel at both.</p>

[Aull]

<p><cite>Gaylon@Mistmoore wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Aull wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Yep. However some fighters are able to excell better in everyday norrath ventures where some are only able shine in the raid environment.</p></blockquote><p>And a few get to excel at both.</p></blockquote><p>I can name three. Can ya guess what they are? <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/0320a00cb4bb5629ab9fc2bc1fcc4e9e.gif" border="0" /></p>

[Rahatmattata]

<p><cite>Aull wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Gaylon@Mistmoore wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>And a few get to excel at both.</p></blockquote><p>I can name three. Can ya guess what they are? <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/0320a00cb4bb5629ab9fc2bc1fcc4e9e.gif" border="0" /></p></blockquote><p>Guardian, Bruiser, Monk.</p>

[dalponis]

<p><span style="font-size: medium; font-family: corbel,verdana;">This thread makes me want to delete all my level ninty characters and reroll/level them as Shadow Knights.</span></p>

[Trueblade]

<p><span style="font-family: verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif;"><span style="color: #33cccc;">i  been raiding for year with my zerk i can 100% say that when there sk in raid he doing 10k more dps when my zerk in dw in dps stance </span></span></p><p>hell i seen under sk in ter1 gear doing just good my ter2 zerk it no longer funny to see it takeing [Removed for Content] when class so God like , it not going to get any better when new addon come out </p><p>like so many posted befor are sk giveing up there def do this dps over zerk & guard hell no .</p><p>guard update was nice start but no way going get any better with out takeing some role away from sk </p><p>just not funny any more seeing sk runing around doing more dps any tank classes with out loseing any there def </p><p>my zerk giveing up his shield and dw it not doing close to same as sk , all nice that tank class can dps in stance </p><p>but doing so need lose some tools right now sk are so over power you need rework there stance out </p><p>just dont see it geting any better at all am beting zerk pull far away from guard on nexk addon with over cap stat </p><p>and sk with be pulling x more dps agine more then both classes and mit nerf that incoming will not make up for it </p>

[Terron]

<p><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Beef_Supreme wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Wasuna wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p> <span style="color: #ff0000;">Breuner is using percentages to once again defelct attention to try and protect his prefered class.</span></p></blockquote></blockquote><p>At least Wasuna had the knowledge to figure out what I was saying and spell it out.</p></blockquote><p>I am glad you have admitted what lots of us worked out long ago.</p>

[Aule]

Bruener's been working on the preservation of the crusader imbalance agenda since SF beta.

[Calabeth]

<p>And a couple of things would happen were it ever to shift the crusader to less then they are now. 1) He would try and argue tooth and nail to regain god status for his class. 2) After seeing his requests denied would start working up the new god class and start touting them as the best ever and his fav since day 1.</p>

[Orthureon]

<p><cite>Calabeth wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>And a couple of things would happen were it ever to shift the crusader to less then they are now. 1) He would try and argue tooth and nail to regain god status for his class. 2) After seeing his requests denied would start working up the new god class and start touting them as the best ever and his fav since day 1.</p></blockquote><p>That sounds about right. If anyone doubts this click the link above my signature. 250 pages and he was in there defending the class like it was underpowered.</p>