Current Level 90 Population - 12/13/10 [Archive]

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Wasuna

12-13-2010, 02:34 PM

All server population for level 90 fighters only - 12/13/10:Shadow Knight - 7,028Berserker - 3,945Paladin - 3,894Monk - 3,031Brusier - 2,956Guardian - 2,552Looks like something is messed up to me.....

Wasuna

12-13-2010, 02:38 PM

Some information to consider:1. The SK level 90 population increased 2.28% over the last 12 days.2. The Guardian level 90 population increased 1.65% over the last 12 days.3. SK population is increasing 38% faster than the Guardian population even though they already have a 2.75:1 population ratio.

Kordran

12-13-2010, 03:54 PM

Honestly, I'm surprised that that the Guardian population is increasing at all. Every time anyone ever asks about playing a fighter, the first thing they hear is "Guardians suck, you should play an SK". They hear it in level chat, they read it on the forums and lo and behold...To be honest, I think the only way you're going to see a reversal of this trend at this stage of the game is if they massively nerf SKs and make Guardians overpowered and/or adjust huge amounts of content; and I just don't see them rolling back the clock like that. Because even if they do boost Guardians more, that's not going to change the prevalent attitude of the playerbase that's been ingrained for the past two years.Leaving the leather tanks out of this equation for now, just based on those numbers at face value (which you know I have issues with), I guess my real question is, how realistic do you think it is that they're going to make sweeping changes here? If you're looking at this as a zero sum game, nerfing six players to make one happier with their class choice is not really a recipe for success.

Landiin

12-13-2010, 04:56 PM

Guards are a free class on X, they will never bring them up to the level of the none free classes. The guard class was doomed the day that choice was made. (removed negativity)

Yimway

12-13-2010, 05:12 PM

Kordran

12-13-2010, 05:23 PM

<cite>Toranx@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote>Guards are a free class on X, they will never bring them up to the level of the none free classes. The guard class was doomed the day that choice was made. (removed negativity)</blockquote>I doubt that's a factor, given that you can choose to play a Berserker on EQ2X, and they can be just as good at tanking (both raid and heroic instances), with a ton of AE damage, solid aggro control, two death prevents and the ability to heal themselves. I still think the best option for Guardians would be to simply give them an AA spec that would allow them to convert many of their ST attacks to AE with an additional threat component. For example, a ST attack rated at 900-1500 would convert to an AE attack for 700-1200 with an additional 1K threat for each target hit in a 10m radius, up to 8 targets. Also give Guardians something that allows them to generate more AE threat and increases their hit rate if they have a shield equipped. Bottom line, make it so they can't do the same pure DPS as a Zerk, but allow them to generate the same amount of AE threat while keeping their defensive edge.

Soul_Dreamer

12-13-2010, 05:24 PM

<cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Toranx@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote>Guards are a free class on X, they will never bring them up to the level of the none free classes. The guard class was doomed the day that choice was made. (removed negativity)</blockquote>From the stance of the current producer, there may be some accuracy to that statement.</blockquote>And Berzerkers? Who are very very powerful at present, and also free on EQ2x

RafaelSmith

12-13-2010, 05:55 PM

I place very little importance on these population 'surveys'.Relatively speaking SKs today are nowhere near as OP as they were back in TSO but it is interesting to see that the perception of their OPness still seems to be contributing.The DMG that SOE did to the fighter classes in TSO by overbuffing SKs like they did is apparantly gonna take awhile to repair.Guard is a solid class today but its a rather singular purpose and pigeonholed....so I think its only natural that its population be smaller. Many also perceive the Guardian class as boring....I find it extremely fun and challenging but im in a small minority im afraid.I think its foolish to think your gonna ever see "balanced" population numbers amongst the fighter classes.

Yimway

12-13-2010, 06:28 PM

<cite>Soul_Dreamer wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote>From the stance of the current producer, there may be some accuracy to that statement.</blockquote>And Berzerkers? Who are very very powerful at present, and also free on EQ2x</blockquote>Would you agree the power of the zerker class doesn't really start to show thru to post level 50 and not really till higher?

Soul_Dreamer

12-13-2010, 06:31 PM

<cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Soul_Dreamer wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote>From the stance of the current producer, there may be some accuracy to that statement.</blockquote>And Berzerkers? Who are very very powerful at present, and also free on EQ2x</blockquote>Would you agree the power of the zerker class doesn't really start to show thru to post level 50 and not really till higher?</blockquote>Yes but that is the same for most classes, AA and All abilities make a very large difference. Also that doesn't really have anything to do with the argument of them being free on EQ2x.They had to pick 4 classes, are the other classes "Underpowered" and worst in their Archetype as well? Nope.

Yimway

12-13-2010, 07:38 PM

<cite>Soul_Dreamer wrote:</cite><blockquote>They had to pick 4 classes, are the other classes "Underpowered" and worst in their Archetype as well? Nope.</blockquote>Hmm, I thought it did break by class/archtype popularity. I could be worng.

LardLord

12-13-2010, 09:08 PM

Nah, Clerics are more popular than Shaman.

Soul_Dreamer

12-13-2010, 09:51 PM

<cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Soul_Dreamer wrote:</cite><blockquote>They had to pick 4 classes, are the other classes "Underpowered" and worst in their Archetype as well? Nope.</blockquote>Hmm, I thought it did break by class/archtype popularity. I could be worng.</blockquote>No, you're saying that because the Guardian is free it is by default an underpowered tank class and can't be improved because of this.Swashy, Brigand, Wizard, Warlock, Guardian, Berzerker, Inquis, Temp.A lot of these classes are very desirable and even some of the best classes, Templars are arguable one of the best healing classes, Wizard one of the best DPS....

Wasuna

12-14-2010, 03:17 PM

<cite>Gaylon@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote>I place very little importance on these population 'surveys'.Relatively speaking SKs today are nowhere near as OP as they were back in TSO but it is interesting to see that the perception of their OPness still seems to be contributing.The DMG that SOE did to the fighter classes in TSO by overbuffing SKs like they did is apparantly gonna take awhile to repair.Guard is a solid class today but its a rather singular purpose and pigeonholed....so I think its only natural that its population be smaller. Many also perceive the Guardian class as boring....I find it extremely fun and challenging but im in a small minority im afraid.I think its foolish to think your gonna ever see "balanced" population numbers amongst the fighter classes.</blockquote>I'm sorry but your applying your play style as the defination of OverPowered or not. The fact is that all fighters are pretty darn close in terms of being able to take the damage that is part of high end raid tanking. That his how SoE has balanced the fighetrs, damage taking and the ability to survive it. If you basically only raid tank then you see a reasonable amount of balance.The part that fails your defination of OP or not is everything OTHER than raid tanking survivability. Crusaders and Berserkers far outshine all other fighters in all ways other than survivability when tanking raid mobs. Survivability in anything lower than raid mobs is so redicusiously skewed that it's laughable.

Landiin

12-14-2010, 04:28 PM

<cite>Soul_Dreamer wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Soul_Dreamer wrote:</cite><blockquote>They had to pick 4 classes, are the other classes "Underpowered" and worst in their Archetype as well? Nope.</blockquote>Hmm, I thought it did break by class/archtype popularity. I could be worng.</blockquote>No, you're saying that because the Guardian is free it is by default an underpowered tank class and can't be improved because of this.Swashy, Brigand, Wizard, Warlock, Guardian, Berzerker, Inquis, Temp.A lot of these classes are very desirable and even some of the best classes, Templars are arguable one of the best healing classes, Wizard one of the best DPS....</blockquote>Keep your head in the sand for all I care. Even with at 250 AAs a zerker don't hold crap over a Crusader until they are mythed and even then they are lacking. I'ed rather have every other healer besides a Temp healing me unless in a raid. Only thing you said that actually holds water is the Sorcerers class but even then the two Summoners subclass is better in heroic content.

RafaelSmith

12-14-2010, 04:42 PM

<cite>Wasuna wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Gaylon@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote>I place very little importance on these population 'surveys'.Relatively speaking SKs today are nowhere near as OP as they were back in TSO but it is interesting to see that the perception of their OPness still seems to be contributing.The DMG that SOE did to the fighter classes in TSO by overbuffing SKs like they did is apparantly gonna take awhile to repair.Guard is a solid class today but its a rather singular purpose and pigeonholed....so I think its only natural that its population be smaller. Many also perceive the Guardian class as boring....I find it extremely fun and challenging but im in a small minority im afraid.I think its foolish to think your gonna ever see "balanced" population numbers amongst the fighter classes.</blockquote>I'm sorry but your applying your play style as the defination of OverPowered or not. The fact is that all fighters are pretty darn close in terms of being able to take the damage that is part of high end raid tanking. That his how SoE has balanced the fighetrs, damage taking and the ability to survive it. If you basically only raid tank then you see a reasonable amount of balance.The part that fails your defination of OP or not is everything OTHER than raid tanking survivability. Crusaders and Berserkers far outshine all other fighters in all ways other than survivability when tanking raid mobs. Survivability in anything lower than raid mobs is so redicusiously skewed that it's laughable.</blockquote>Yes it is true that Zerkers and Crusaders IMO could still use some sorta of adjustment to bring their overall 'power' in line in terms of what they have and what they give up to have it. ATM they get everything yet sacrifice nothing which IMO is the problem with fighter balance. Thats not to say that Guards are underpowered like we were in TSO...they are not......in fact I think Guards are pretty close to how all fighters should be in that there is a price to pay for exceling at something.All 6 fighters can tank anything in the game from library to UD and assuming they know how to gear and play their class they can hold aggro without any issues. That variable of balance seems to be fine........its when you look at what the fighters offer beyond taking dmg and holding aggro where balance goes out the window....and where currently some of the fighter classes cross the bounderies of the archetype.As for population numbers......a class like Guardian will always have smaller numbers because of its nature coupled with human nature......for every person out there that likes playing a defensive tank with a singular purpose there are 9 that don't and most of which would rather judge their merit by how many things they can do instead of how well they can do it. EQ2 has become a DPS bragging only game so fighters that function via DPS will be more popular. OH and BTW I can probably count on one hand the number of raid targets ive actually gotten to tank in the last 6 months. Majority of my Guardian playtime is in instances with friends and such.....something I didnt even bother doing in TSO because things were so bad but since SF the class is not at a disadvantage.. Yeah yeah SKs and now Zerkers have an over-advantage but as long as im not at a disadvantage I could care less....with any luck their time in the OP spotlight will end soon.

Rahatmattata

12-14-2010, 04:46 PM

<cite>Toranx@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote>I'ed rather have every other healer besides a Temp healing me unless in a raid.</blockquote>[Removed for Content]?

Kimber

12-14-2010, 06:47 PM

So Rafael you want things back the way they were in ROK when Guards were on top right. When a Raid Geard Guard was near the top of the Parse and held aggro threw DPS.All TSO did was change the pecking order of tanks. Not saying it was right I wanted balance also, my main is a Zerk and well untill TSO it was difficult to get in on a raid cause with out gear you could not get a DPS or tank spot and you need to raid to get gear. With TSO gear evend out with the shard gear T2 stuff could get you a spot in a raid as DPS/Off tank as a Zerk cause we got a lil love. With SF we got some nice stuff and well all the Plate tanks did ( Zerks got a lil more that put us more in line with Crusaders ). I think Guards should be brought more in line with the rest of the tanks but to go back to ROK would be very bad imo not just because it would put Zerks back at the bottom of the Plate tank pile but more because it would just be swapping 1 Plate tank back to the top and put the other 3 back down were the other 3 are some what balanced. Granted not perfectly but Zerk or Crusader can tank the same content with only a few adjustments here and there to compensate for this or that. To swap guards back to the top of the pile would mean like in ROK would mean major adjustments to have a Crusader or Zerk tank the same content.Disclaimer: This is how I see it and what I see on a PvP server my not hold true on Blue servers as AA set ups for us on PvP servers tend to be quite diff from Blue.

Landiin

12-15-2010, 04:07 AM

<cite>Rahatmattata wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Toranx@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote>I'ed rather have every other healer besides a Temp healing me unless in a raid.</blockquote>[Removed for Content]?</blockquote>Not saying I wouldn't take one, but the others have more to offer the group and a good Inqi is just beast.

Silzin

12-15-2010, 11:38 AM

I think the masher of class balance should NOT JUST be at the top end of raiding with all of the absolute best gear in the game for each class. I think that the classes need to be looked and compared at each other for class balance at a lot of different points along the lvling scale. Just with all MC gear at 20, 40, 50, 70, 80, and 90, with varying amounts of AA. Then also at 90/200 with all basic legendary armor, quested jewelry, and fable epic trying to tank Cella with 1 healer and group with equal gear. After that look at the classes with T1 raid gear and myth buff and see how they stack up. If you look at all 6 fighters at these different points and compare your results I know you will get very different results then what you see at the top end of raiding.

Aull

12-15-2010, 02:37 PM

<cite>Silzin wrote:</cite><blockquote>I think the masher of class balance should NOT JUST be at the top end of raiding with all of the absolute best gear in the game for each class. I think that the classes need to be looked and compared at each other for class balance at a lot of different points along the lvling scale. Just with all MC gear at 20, 40, 50, 70, 80, and 90, with varying amounts of AA. Then also at 90/200 with all basic legendary armor, quested jewelry, and fable epic trying to tank Cella with 1 healer and group with equal gear. After that look at the classes with T1 raid gear and myth buff and see how they stack up. If you look at all 6 fighters at these different points and compare your results I know you will get very different results then what you see at the top end of raiding. </blockquote>Agreed. It should be viewed as a total package and not just from an end game raid standpoint.

Blakkmantis

12-15-2010, 02:40 PM

<cite>Arandar@Everfrost wrote:</cite><blockquote>Honestly, I'm surprised that that the Guardian population is increasing at all. Every time anyone ever asks about playing a fighter, the first thing they hear is "Guardians suck, you should play an SK". They hear it in level chat, they read it on the forums and lo and behold...To be honest, I think the only way you're going to see a reversal of this trend at this stage of the game is if they massively nerf SKs and make Guardians overpowered and/or adjust huge amounts of content; and I just don't see them rolling back the clock like that. Because even if they do boost Guardians more, that's not going to change the prevalent attitude of the playerbase that's been ingrained for the past two years.Leaving the leather tanks out of this equation for now, just based on those numbers at face value (which you know I have issues with), I guess my real question is, how realistic do you think it is that they're going to make sweeping changes here? If you're looking at this as a zero sum game, nerfing six players to make one happier with their class choice is not really a recipe for success.</blockquote>This....No need to read anything else about this subject. As usual Arandar speaketh the truth.

RafaelSmith

12-15-2010, 07:27 PM

<cite>Kimber@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>So Rafael you want things back the way they were in ROK when Guards were on top right. When a Raid Geard Guard was near the top of the Parse and held aggro threw DPS.All TSO did was change the pecking order of tanks. Not saying it was right I wanted balance also, my main is a Zerk and well untill TSO it was difficult to get in on a raid cause with out gear you could not get a DPS or tank spot and you need to raid to get gear. With TSO gear evend out with the shard gear T2 stuff could get you a spot in a raid as DPS/Off tank as a Zerk cause we got a lil love.With SF we got some nice stuff and well all the Plate tanks did ( Zerks got a lil more that put us more in line with Crusaders ). I think Guards should be brought more in line with the rest of the tanks but to go back to ROK would be very bad imo not just because it would put Zerks back at the bottom of the Plate tank pile but more because it would just be swapping 1 Plate tank back to the top and put the other 3 back down were the other 3 are some what balanced. Granted not perfectly but Zerk or Crusader can tank the same content with only a few adjustments here and there to compensate for this or that. To swap guards back to the top of the pile would mean like in ROK would mean major adjustments to have a Crusader or Zerk tank the same content.Disclaimer: This is how I see it and what I see on a PvP server my not hold true on Blue servers as AA set ups for us on PvP servers tend to be quite diff from Blue.</blockquote>Not at all. No tank should the top or be anywhere near the top of the parse....somewhere just above the healing healers would be good. They may have fixed that with regards to Guards but they broke it again 10-fold with SKs in TSO. Two bad design decisions do not make a good one.Like I said things are much better now after SF but there are still "areas" where several of the fighter types are simply "too good" with little to no penalty for it.Everything has to have a cost or penalty for there to be true balance. Guards are expected (and rightly so) to be at the bottom of DPS and Util in exchange for taking the hits the best then if Fighter wants to be up there with T3,T2+ DPS then he better [Removed for Content] well take the hits like one of those classes would if HM Mob yada yada aggros him.