Look what is on Test now does it spell the demise of certain tradeskill classes? [Archive]

Alenna

12-04-2010, 02:54 PM

From December 3rds Test upgrade notesRESEARCH<ul><li>The Research window has been moved in to the Knowledge window.</li><li>Journeyman through Master spell tiers can be researched.</li><li>You are no longer required to speak with a Research Assistant to start/change/claim research.</li></ul>and it was confirmed that someone started researchign an Expert spell upgrade from an adept spell.see this thread <a href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?topic_id=491401" target="_blank">http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/...topic_id=491401</a>Domino how did you let this get through even on Test?<div></div>

Alvane

12-04-2010, 03:30 PM

It's called simplification of indepth game play. It's used to slowly turn complicated indepth gameplay into vanilla. Vanilla is utilized to push a player from start to cap as quickly as possible as developers decide the game is best played at cap.One prime example of this is the game called World of Warcraft. WoW is very well known to be a raiding game. It isn't a game for crafting, nor is it for adventuring or journies. It isn't even a game for lore. It's a raiding game. This is why WoW is so popular. It is a vanilla game and can be played by anyone of any age, any education or any background. One can be totally inexperienced in games, yet be a raider very quickly on a low tier computer. For a lot of people this is where it is all at.Now apply that to crafting. The endgame for crafting ATM is 90/90/450/450/450 for every character you own. If you don't want the double 90s, then negate the adventure 90 and leave your character at 10 or w/e.Yes, it's called simplification of indepth game play. For more information about this, listen to <a href="http://www.escapistmagazine.com/news/tags/Extra%20Credits?page=1" target="_blank">The Escapist: Extra Credits:</a> Easy Games, page 1 and on page 3 Future of MMOs.

Zabjade

12-04-2010, 06:18 PM

Wait? Does this mean we can research our own Spell/Combat upgrades or have someone of the appropriate skill-set do so?

Alenna

12-04-2010, 07:26 PM

<cite>Zabjade wrote:</cite><blockquote>Wait? Does this mean we can research our own Spell/Combat upgrades or have someone of the appropriate skill-set do so?</blockquote>Research your own spells upgrades including the ones that are crafter made(not a good idea)

Seiffil

12-04-2010, 07:42 PM

You can still only research spell/CA upgrades for that specific character, there's no change to that restriction. I don't think this change in itself is necessarily a huge blow to the scholar classes though. I think someone said it's about 13 days apiece to research an expert in T9, and then another 25-30 days to research the cooresponding master.The main people who would follow this route are those who aren't actively trying or concerned about upgrading all of their spells to an expert and master level. If you have someone who really cares about the effectiveness of their spells, they wouldn't be waiting 200+ days to get all of their spells to expert level, they would be more likely to have their experts made and only researching masters that they are unable to obtain masters for on the broker.Where this is an issue is what other changes will SOE make down the road simply because this one was allowed to go throw. Similar to when they put the arrows on Station Cash, the arrows were awful and I could have cared less about the type of item being sold, but it was the fact that SOE was selling items that directly impacted the game in competition with actual tradeskillers, and the doors that opened for what SOE could try to do in the future was the bigger issue.

Jrral

12-04-2010, 08:06 PM

I saw this. I hope it's a bug that gets fixed, and it goes back to the old rule of only being able to upgrade crafted qualities.

Magpie1

12-05-2010, 06:29 AM

In addition to the tradeskill changes I heard plans that we will soon be able to raid x4 mobs with the help of the city guards. The aim is to reduce server load by not actually needing to connect to the internet and interact with anyone else in SOE MMR's <img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/385970365b8ed7503b4294502a458efa.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" />

MurFalad

12-05-2010, 07:38 AM

<cite>Jrral@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote>I saw this. I hope it's a bug that gets fixed, and it goes back to the old rule of only being able to upgrade crafted qualities.</blockquote>Me too, if they allow adept spells to be researched then the value of crafting experts would be much diminished.Right now the balance of crafting is quite nice, if anything this game needs a reset in power more then it needs more easymode options added. By that I mean making a master something special again, instead of being something that everyone is expected to have.Ironically that was the one good thing that the latest WoW expansion has shown, for example they've toned AOE downto how it was more in the original game there, so it is possible to remove abilities/mudflation from the game. So not all changes to attract new players have to be to make it easier.

MrWolfie

12-05-2010, 10:51 AM

What's the point in crafting? Of having a shopfront? Of buying rares in bulk and pro-actively setting up a sales point?This is a game in and of itself. Now undermined by SOE development!It seems that being a trades-person is not considered a viable position in EQ2, since there are a few players like to sell at cost to "help the community" while probably not realising they're stepping on the toes of other players who are playing at running a business, and then, SOE come along with an unnecessary change like this.What's next, letting players research their own armour or weapons?

Rijacki

12-05-2010, 01:47 PM

<cite>Aemm@Splitpaw wrote:</cite><blockquote>What's next, letting players research their own armour or weapons?</blockquote>Shards and Marks.

Laiina

12-05-2010, 02:33 PM

I honestly don't see the problem here.I have 5 90 crafters, 2 of them make spells or CA's, and for the past 2-3 years NOBODY buys Journeyman level spells. They are basically only good for leveling up tradeskills.It looks to me like what you are all complaining about is that you will now be able to spend an extra 2-3 weeks researching adepts to expert. Since the main market by far for adepts is for muting, not spell upgrades, I simply don't see that happening. About the only one satisfied with adepts are the pretty casual player - the same one that is not buying your Experts now anyway.

MrWolfie

12-06-2010, 09:09 AM

<cite>Laiina wrote:</cite><blockquote>It looks to me like what you are all complaining about is that you will now be able to spend an extra 2-3 weeks researching adepts to expert. Since the main market by far for adepts is for muting, not spell upgrades, I simply don't see that happening. About the only one satisfied with adepts are the pretty casual player - the same one that is not buying your Experts now anyway.</blockquote>And who will be buying Experts?All the players I know go straight to the Expert level spell as soon as, if not even before, they've levelled. Now they've the option of researching the Expert. It diminishes the saleability of craftables that use rare harvests, therefore it diminishes the role of three tradeskills.

Jaremai

12-06-2010, 09:44 AM

<cite>Aemm@Splitpaw wrote:</cite><blockquote>. Now they've the option of researching the Expert.</blockquote>And if they want to wait the time to get a free expert, that's their life to waste waiting. My toons will be out killing with full expert/masters during that time. Most people serious about their characters will still buy experts regardless of this option to wait for a free one. Those that wait will most likely out-level the spell that they are researching before it's done unless they're over 80.This change doesn't bother me in the least. It certainly isn't going to kill any of my business (giving or receiving).

Alvane

12-06-2010, 12:33 PM

<cite>Jaremai@Guk wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Aemm@Splitpaw wrote:</cite><blockquote>. Now they've the option of researching the Expert.</blockquote>And if they want to wait the time to get a free expert, that's their life to waste waiting. My toons will be out killing with full expert/masters during that time. Most people serious about their characters will still buy experts regardless of this option to wait for a free one. Those that wait will most likely out-level the spell that they are researching before it's done unless they're over 80.This change doesn't bother me in the least. It certainly isn't going to kill any of my business (giving or receiving).</blockquote>I don't really see that it's a big deal, unless the waiting for the RA to research the expert or master is a short period of time particularly for T-8 and T-9 spells. As for "most people serious about their characters", this game is suppose to be fun. Yes, there are those who stress out to get their characters with the bestest and mostest uberess of spells, gear and w/e. That's fine - it's one play style amoung many.One does not need expert spells immediately, nor even master spells in order to have fun and even work group dungeons! Personal goals are just that personal.As to out-leveling spell that one is researching? Once again, that is a choice. I'm sure if people are leveling quickly, they don't even bother getting expert spells even from crafters let alone an RA. It's not unusual to see a T-9 toon dragging 2-3-4 characters at low levels through dungeons such as RE. Inspect them and you'll see they just about all have their T-1 gear on, too, or perhaps T-2.Then there are people who don't level quickly at all. Maybe they don't play every day or 4-5 times a week. Perhaps they might play 1 or 2 days putting in 2-4 hours of playtime weekly or even monthly. Perhaps they don't harvest or have bad luck in getting enough rares for all their spells, so the RA will help them to get a few experts. Good!I have a character who doesn't buy experts, harvests rares for expert spells and MC armor and uses the RA for free masters. The character is level 42 and has all masters except the latest two levels. The character groups and does dungeons and duo's with a friend playing several times a week. The character is now 42/90/161/450/450/450 and has been around since May, 2010. So I guess, the character is, like you said, willing "to wait the time to get a free expert (master), that's their life to waste waiting."I certainly wouldn't call using the RA a waste of time just because someone doesn't have the same play style as you or even I.

d1anaw

12-06-2010, 01:06 PM

I guess it isn't enough to have the whole "sky is falling" garbage on the test forum, it needs to be brought here too. What a crock. First off, sages cannot make master spells, so it is not really going to be relevant. It would be nice if sages could make master spells. I think the best thing that could happen to tradeskilling in general is to make tradeskill items the most desired products in the game rather than some of the least desired. It seems to me that is how it should be. In most economies, those that can afford the custom made, are the cream of the crop.However, having said that, reality as it now stands, it will have negliable affect on tradeskilling. Raiders and most high level players don't want expert spells, which is the best sages can make at this point in time, they want masters, which we cannot make. And they are not going to wait around for 30 days or more for a research assistant for each spell anyway.Most of us who are running with high level characters with expert spells don't have the money or aren't willing to pay the absurd amounts demanded for the masters. So for someone like me, who is not a raider, it is a way to obtain more master spells without having to raid. Yeah, it will cost me some time and in the meantime, I will still need to make my expert spells to hold me over. I'm guessing I'm probably nowhere near the only one who plans to continue this way.Some people were complaining about the sales of rares. I don't sell my rares on the broker. They are too valuable to my tradeskillers. It seems that any time there is a change made, those who hate change jump on the chicken little bandwagon without thinking things through. I like the idea. We don't have to waste a guild ammenity on a research assistant, it's free, simple and convenient. And it will change very little in terms of sages or anyone else. If anything, it might make spell prices for those of us in the priest world a little more reasonable.

d1anaw

12-06-2010, 01:10 PM

<cite>Helraiser@Splitpaw wrote:</cite><blockquote>In addition to the tradeskill changes I heard plans that we will soon be able to raid x4 mobs with the help of the city guards. The aim is to reduce server load by not actually needing to connect to the internet and interact with anyone else in SOE MMR's <img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/385970365b8ed7503b4294502a458efa.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" /></blockquote>Again, I see nothing wrong with permitting people who don't want to deal with the egomania in raiding groups to have the option to do things differently. Everyone's money is the same size and color and everyone should be entitled to play the game the way he/she chooses to do so.

d1anaw

12-06-2010, 01:14 PM

<cite>Aemm@Splitpaw wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Laiina wrote:</cite><blockquote>It looks to me like what you are all complaining about is that you will now be able to spend an extra 2-3 weeks researching adepts to expert. Since the main market by far for adepts is for muting, not spell upgrades, I simply don't see that happening. About the only one satisfied with adepts are the pretty casual player - the same one that is not buying your Experts now anyway.</blockquote>And who will be buying Experts?All the players I know go straight to the Expert level spell as soon as, if not even before, they've levelled. Now they've the option of researching the Expert. It diminishes the saleability of craftables that use rare harvests, therefore it diminishes the role of three tradeskills.</blockquote>Again, high level players and raiders DO NOT want just experts, they want masters. And they DO NOT want to wait for the spells they want/need. Just as they have an intense need to be the first one to the new cap level or to get there as quickly as possible if not first, they do not want to wait for their master spells. For the rest of us who haven't got thousands of plat in the bank with nothing to spend it on, we will continue to need experts until the researchers can make the spells at over a month a piece at level 90. We will probably be at the next cap level before that happens. If it lowers the prices on the broker for masters for priest classes, I'm good with that.

Prrasha

12-06-2010, 02:51 PM

<cite>Jaremai@Guk wrote:</cite><blockquote>This change doesn't bother me in the least. It certainly isn't going to kill any of my business (giving or receiving).</blockquote>Given: EQ2 has a defined supply of spell upgrades (you can't (yet) spend real-world money to get them, they all come from drops or crafters in-game).Given: your quote above....must mean that you believe that NOBODY is going to use the new feature. If you believe that, you should argue against wasting developer time on this 100% useless code.

Kordran

12-06-2010, 03:30 PM

<cite>MurFalad wrote:</cite><blockquote>Right now the balance of crafting is quite nice, if anything this game needs a reset in power more then it needs more easymode options added. By that I mean making a master something special again, instead of being something that everyone is expected to have.</blockquote>Yeah, the balance of crafing is just wonderful. Unless you're an armorer, weaponsmith, tailor, carpenter or woodworker. And this change has nothing to do with masters really, and everything to do with the fact that expert level spells are now considered the "new normal" rather than adepts. If anything, it's probably an indicator that the content in Velious will be more challenging and they want to make experts more accessible, even for very casual players. <blockquote>Ironically that was the one good thing that the latest WoW expansion has shown, for example they've toned AOE downto how it was more in the original game there, so it is possible to remove abilities/mudflation from the game. So not all changes to attract new players have to be to make it easier.</blockquote>Yeah, and when you have 12 million people playing your game, you can afford to tick off a few hundred thousand of them (and I'm one of those people who hasn't renewed their subscription to WoW and won't be buying Cataclysm). But hey, if SOE wants to go back and nerf the heck out of AEs, they'd also need to rebalance a ton of content -- and ultimately to what end? And if they did massively nerfed AE damage, all it would really do is increase the amount of time it takes to run instances; I fail to see how that would help the game. It wouldn't make the game "harder" or more challenging, it just makes it slower.

Stubbswick

12-06-2010, 04:17 PM

<cite>Arandar@Everfrost wrote:</cite><blockquote>Yeah, the balance of crafing is just wonderful. Unless you're an armorer, weaponsmith, tailor, carpenter or woodworker.</blockquote>Amen. My first crafter was a Tailor. My second an Alchemist. I remember being surprised... "wait, you mean I can get to the next level without doing 10 writs, and still have recipes I haven't made yet?"In regards to the "demise of certain tradeskill classes", I think that's just sensationalizing it. People said the same thing when Research Assistants first came out. It was going to make Masters pointless, and ruin the game. Well it hasn't, on both counts. T9 Masters cost as much as T8 Masters cost when T8 was the cap. They still sell really well. So obviously there's still plenty of people out there who don't want to wait a year to finish getting all of their Masters.The same will be true for experts. Think of it this way, if you're levelling up an alt, are you even going to be in a certain level range long enough for one expert spell to research, let alone all of them? The people who do take that long to level probably aren't the type to buy experts anyways (probably don't have the money or means to harvest rares).

Laiina

12-06-2010, 06:14 PM

Dasein

12-06-2010, 08:07 PM

Dasein

12-06-2010, 08:10 PM

<cite>Alvane@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote>It's called simplification of indepth game play. It's used to slowly turn complicated indepth gameplay into vanilla. Vanilla is utilized to push a player from start to cap as quickly as possible as developers decide the game is best played at cap.One prime example of this is the game called World of Warcraft. WoW is very well known to be a raiding game. It isn't a game for crafting, nor is it for adventuring or journies. It isn't even a game for lore. It's a raiding game. This is why WoW is so popular. It is a vanilla game and can be played by anyone of any age, any education or any background. One can be totally inexperienced in games, yet be a raider very quickly on a low tier computer. For a lot of people this is where it is all at.Now apply that to crafting. The endgame for crafting ATM is 90/90/450/450/450 for every character you own. If you don't want the double 90s, then negate the adventure 90 and leave your character at 10 or w/e.Yes, it's called simplification of indepth game play. For more information about this, listen to <a href="http://www.escapistmagazine.com/news/tags/Extra%20Credits?page=1" target="_blank">The Escapist: Extra Credits:</a> Easy Games, page 1 and on page 3 Future of MMOs.</blockquote>EQ2 lacks any sort of proper tutorial, and people are confusing timesinks and execution challenges with real depth. If anything, one could argue that by givng players an automatic upgrade path, it increases player knowledge of how spell upgrades work, this allowing for more depth per the Escapist presentation.Their piece on the Future of MMOs points towards games breaking out of the high fantasy setting and subscription model - things that the EQ2 old guard consider anathema.

Kamimura

12-06-2010, 08:22 PM

I don't think this is going to be a very big deal, or cause a lot of lost sales (and to be sure, I say that as a 90 sage/alchemist, 80's jeweler). The wait time in the higher levels means it would take months to get experts of all your spells. (Which you'd then have to repeat for masters.) It'll be quicker to farm or buy the rares, I still see most people going to a crafter for most of their experts because of the wait.

KniteShayd

12-06-2010, 09:29 PM

This is NOT a big deal. The Spell markets I have seen are pretty crap as it is. Many masters are decent price, and the expert prices are way overpriced. The people who are in decent guilds already get their spells made for free, or at low cost. How is this gonna make things worse? Honestly.For overpopulated classes, this is a godsend to get upgrades. Most tradeskillers aren't getting rich in endgame tiers as you can make tons of money grinding kills and selling their drops, or grouping and selling loot rights for gear. Rare prices for T4-T6 can sometimes be more than rares for T9. Due to that, I would even buy experts off the broker, I'd just load up on rares and have a guildie make em, If I couldn't do it myself. So the overpriced expert you have on the broker, I won't buy either way. Or I would group and buy the master, as I am one (like previous pasts say) Don't want to wait to be mastered.I like the idea of researching. Although, I do admit I wish it was a little more in depth like EQ1 researching was...

SmokeJumper

12-06-2010, 10:54 PM

<cite>Aemm@Splitpaw wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Laiina wrote:</cite><blockquote>It looks to me like what you are all complaining about is that you will now be able to spend an extra 2-3 weeks researching adepts to expert. Since the main market by far for adepts is for muting, not spell upgrades, I simply don't see that happening. About the only one satisfied with adepts are the pretty casual player - the same one that is not buying your Experts now anyway.</blockquote>And who will be buying Experts?All the players I know go straight to the Expert level spell as soon as, if not even before, they've levelled. Now they've the option of researching the Expert. It diminishes the saleability of craftables that use rare harvests, therefore it diminishes the role of three tradeskills.</blockquote>Who will buy Experts? Answer: People unwilling to wait the many weeks to upgrade each of their 30-40 spells from Adept to Expert via the Research widget. (This is the vast majority of players who are almost always wanting their power upgrades NOW! <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />In other words, you will see basically no reduction in sales from this. I think we can all agree that we're not selling Journeyman spells anyway. (Yes, I have a level 90 alchemist.) And the market for Experts is not going to be greatly impacted, because the majority of such sales are from players that want an entire set of spells. Those people are not going to want to wait to piecemeal it up one spell at a time. You'll still get your regular sales.

Asif

12-07-2010, 12:13 AM

<cite>SmokeJumper wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Aemm@Splitpaw wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Laiina wrote:</cite><blockquote>It looks to me like what you are all complaining about is that you will now be able to spend an extra 2-3 weeks researching adepts to expert. Since the main market by far for adepts is for muting, not spell upgrades, I simply don't see that happening. About the only one satisfied with adepts are the pretty casual player - the same one that is not buying your Experts now anyway.</blockquote>And who will be buying Experts?All the players I know go straight to the Expert level spell as soon as, if not even before, they've levelled. Now they've the option of researching the Expert. It diminishes the saleability of craftables that use rare harvests, therefore it diminishes the role of three tradeskills.</blockquote>Who will buy Experts? Answer: People unwilling to wait the many weeks to upgrade each of their 30-40 spells from Adept to Expert via the Research widget. (This is the vast majority of players who are almost always wanting their power upgrades NOW! <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" />In other words, you will see basically no reduction in sales from this. I think we can all agree that we're not selling Journeyman spells anyway. (Yes, I have a level 90 alchemist.) And the market for Experts is not going to be greatly impacted, because the majority of such sales are from players that want an entire set of spells. Those people are not going to want to wait to piecemeal it up one spell at a time. You'll still get your regular sales.</blockquote>I totally agree with you on this . ( i also have a 90 sage and dont see the problem with this)

Pavahac

12-07-2010, 07:40 AM

I for one like this change because i am one of those that is willing to wait. I have yet to buy a master because they are so over priced it's just sad. The experts are just as bad because people are wanting instant rich. So thank you, now i can get the rest of my spells upgraded. I have been playing for over 5yrs so time isn't a factor.

MrWolfie

12-07-2010, 10:04 AM

<cite>SmokeJumper wrote:</cite><blockquote>In other words, you will see basically no reduction in sales from this. I think we can all agree that we're not selling Journeyman spells anyway. (Yes, I have a level 90 alchemist.) And the market for Experts is not going to be greatly impacted, because the majority of such sales are from players that want an entire set of spells. Those people are not going to want to wait to piecemeal it up one spell at a time. You'll still get your regular sales.</blockquote>Yes, dammit. You're right, but so am I.1. It is a diminishing of tradeskills. No matter that it's "barely noticeable". It's a step in the wrong direction. True, a very small step. In the wrong direction. (Many would add, and have, that Shards and Marks were a step in the wrong direction too...)2. And it is a step without purpose. If we both concede it'll not be used by most players, then why bother with it at all? Why are we wasting time on something that isn't necessary?Something that is necessary is making tradeskills an integral part of the game. IMO, every drop in the game should require an interface with a crafter to render it usable by an adventurer. And while that may be ultimately unworkable and overly restrictive, we should be working toward a goal that brings tradeskills in from the cold, rather than pushing them out a little further.Just my 2c.

Jaremai

12-07-2010, 11:18 AM

<cite>Aemm@Splitpaw wrote:</cite><blockquote>It is a diminishing of tradeskills. No matter that it's "barely noticeable". It's a step in the wrong direction. True, a very small step. In the wrong direction. (Many would add, and have, that Shards and Marks were a step in the wrong direction too...)</blockquote>It's possible this change might even spur business on. Some casual players might not know there is anything between Adept and Master.. and seeing it in their little personal research thing might be a good thing. "Oh there's Expert? Neat. But meh.. waiting 10 days to go from Adept to Expert? I'll just buy it."

Valtimore

12-07-2010, 12:02 PM

I don't think this will effect any ones crafting becouse i don't know about u but when i hit lvl 80 or 90 i want all my spells to be at the best they can be as fast as possable so most people will still have there spells made for them sence who wants to wait for 1 or 2 spells a month by then u will have a 2nd lvl 90.

Rijacki

12-07-2010, 12:17 PM

While this might not effect the last 10 levels, what about the previous 80? Yes, the lower levels go by fast, for alts and even new players, if you don't have your slider to 100% AA, but how many of the slide lockers will want to get Experts after this?Additionally, unless this new RA interface in some way indicates the Journeyman and Expert ones can be crafted (and one need not upgrade to -each- quality) to speed up time to get to the top of the research, new players and the players ignorant of the RA (for whom this is one of the targets) won't ever know you can get crafted upgrades. I've seen that with poisons and potions when I have explained to someone who hasn't heard of them but uses the NPC sold for poisons.Crafting is already marginalised in the game and shoved to the background as "fluff". Why should one more thing be taken away?

Striikor

12-07-2010, 12:18 PM

Just makes it official IMO. Was at the point where I only made Adept III's on request anyway because the don't sell. Actually, haven't made money from being a jeweler since about KoS release anyway. The only crafters that make any money are those that concentrate on consumables. /shrugs been that way for a long time.If you like to craft and want to make plat make an outfitter or any of the other that make consumables and let me tell you that is not a jeweler (scholar) was made to be a useless endeavor long ago this is nothing new. But then scholars are pretty useless in RL too!

Whilhelmina

12-07-2010, 01:20 PM

I'm against this change for several reasons (I have 9 tradeskillers and I only craft spells for my husband and for random players needing a full set of spells at the start of a level increase):- less need of harvesting rares means less raws ressources on the broker/depot- less crafted spells means less dusts for mastercrafted potions and poisons, and we already saw previous to the last decap the problem of dusts.- it's one more things dumping down tradeskillers and I'll never agree with anything like that

Laiina

12-07-2010, 01:42 PM

<cite>Whilhelmina@Storms wrote:</cite><blockquote>I'm against this change for several reasons (I have 9 tradeskillers and I only craft spells for my husband and for random players needing a full set of spells at the start of a level increase):- less need of harvesting rares means less raws ressources on the broker/depot- less crafted spells means less dusts for mastercrafted potions and poisons, and we already saw previous to the last decap the problem of dusts.</blockquote>That part makes no sense. If there is LESS need, there should be MORE on broker. And I don't think you will see any difference at all in the demand for Experts anyway.

Alvane

12-07-2010, 01:44 PM

<cite>Pavahac@Guk wrote:</cite><blockquote> I for one like this change because i am one of those that is willing to wait. I have yet to buy a master because they are so over priced it's just sad. The experts are just as bad because people are wanting instant rich. So thank you, now i can get the rest of my spells upgraded. I have been playing for over 5yrs so time isn't a factor.</blockquote>Too bad you don't harvest. I get experts on my characters immediately since I already have harvested the rares necessary for the tier each character needs. I have the crafters to immediately make the spells at cost of fuel. And if I didn't have a crafter, guildies generally craft items for other guildies for fuel costs.When I was a raider, I think I purchased one or two masters from the broker. The rest were drops. I'm retired from raiding now, so I do use the RA for masters. I am content with my experts and what masters I do get on rare occasion from group dungeon drops or from the stock our guild keeps for those who need.It's just a different system from the norm which is to go to your archtype trainer and purchase the spells/upgrades from time to time. Of course, with this sytem, no one needs to wait for an RA to do research. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/ed515dbff23a0ee3241dcc0a601c9ed6.gif" border="0" />But then, those who use that system, don't have a crafter who makes spells. They do other things.

Alvane

12-07-2010, 01:56 PM

<cite>Arandar@Everfrost wrote:</cite><blockquote>Yeah, the balance of crafing is just wonderful. Unless you're an armorer, weaponsmith, tailor, carpenter or woodworker. And this change has nothing to do with masters really, and everything to do with the fact that expert level spells are now considered the "new normal" rather than adepts. If anything, it's probably an indicator that the content in Velious will be more challenging and they want to make experts more accessible, even for very casual players. </blockquote>Actually I do have an armorer, tailor, carpenter and woodworker. All have their clients. The woodworker stays busy supplying arrows to fighters/rangers and some throwing weapons, Certain totems (invis, esc) are in demand and lower level characters like other type totems such as water breathing or pwr/hp out of combat regen for a while. Both my tailor and armorsmith make MC gear which is popular when leveling. My tailor also makes bags, hex dolls, cloaks, and sacks to hold ranged items. Yes, they are one time items mostly, but the biz is steady with characters leveling.My carpenter generally uses the broker. Yes, sometimes she gets orders from guildies but they are on occasion. Usually she'll make certain items that are used a lot in decorating and they sell nicely. My provisioner provides items on broker that generally aren't there such as lower tier food/drink.I don't have a weaponsmith, but I do use guildies to make weapons I need for certain characters. My alchy is always busy and my sage also have clients who level up and want their experts. I also do nicely in the adorning dept - more so than the tinkering.I do agree with your assessment about DoV indicators. Guess we shall see if your "crystal ball" comes true in February! <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/97ada74b88049a6d50a6ed40898a03d7.gif" border="0" />

Alvane

12-07-2010, 02:09 PM

<cite>Rijacki wrote:</cite><blockquote>While this might not effect the last 10 levels, what about the previous 80? Yes, the lower levels go by fast, for alts and even new players, if you don't have your slider to 100% AA, but how many of the slide lockers will want to get Experts after this?</blockquote>It will depend on the length of time to not only get an expert from the RA, but also the master vs how long the character stays level locked. I do have a character that level locks due to the static group of clearing all dungeons of Norrath. Currently locked at level 42 having rapidly leveled from 36 and starting T-5 dungeons come January, the character will still have experts made and use the RA for masters.Why? Because of the number of spells makes the difference. Yes, I can keep her in experts and not go for masters, but why? The character is more powerful with the masters even if it's a little bit.Right now it takes approximately 2 plus days (almost 3) to obtain a Master through RA. I don't know how long it will take to obtain an expert, but let's say 2 days even. That means the character has 11 spells to obtain through the RA within 4 weeks since our group is on a hiatus. I will have all masters on the character by January 5, but if I use the same RA process for experts, it will take a lot longer.Also consider, most of the time when our goup levels up, then locks, we continue to play. So in that case, my character will be playing in dungeons with app spells while working the RA to obtain the experts. Then once all spells are at expert level, begin RA search for masters. I suspect at the 42 level that will take a couple of months. By then, we might be leveling up again and the search takes longer.So, for some character, if they level lock long enough and do it between each level, yes, it will benefit them. I wonder how many do level lock that way. Not much I suspect. Level lockers tend to do it in stages 2x per tier. Some only level lock 1x per tier.

Whilhelmina

12-07-2010, 02:38 PM

Morogoth Drakul

12-07-2010, 03:06 PM

<cite>Jaremai@Guk wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Aemm@Splitpaw wrote:</cite><blockquote>It is a diminishing of tradeskills. No matter that it's "barely noticeable". It's a step in the wrong direction. True, a very small step. In the wrong direction. (Many would add, and have, that Shards and Marks were a step in the wrong direction too...)</blockquote>It's possible this change might even spur business on. Some casual players might not know there is anything between Adept and Master.. and seeing it in their little personal research thing might be a good thing. "Oh there's Expert? Neat. But meh.. waiting 10 days to go from Adept to Expert? I'll just buy it."</blockquote>Agree for the most part. Your judgement is flawed though in the fact that I will wait 10+ days for any given spell and have. It saves me money that I can use on other things. The fact of the matter is that you can research only 1 at a time still just like always. It would take me forever to go from app > master on all my important abilities. this is the reason on my important things i try to get experts at least, and everything else adept at least.What this does is allow players to upgrade given the assumption there is no upgrades available. There are plenty of times I have searched the broker for stuff and came up with nothing useful.

QuestingCrafter

12-07-2010, 03:13 PM

I have ten (yes, ten) L90 crafters -- one of each of eight, and I doubled up on Alchemy. What can I say? ;)This is just another mechanism to balance time and money (not effort).I could spend 0g (Apprentice), then spend 75 days getting to an L90 Master.I could spend 10g to get a Journeyman, then spend 60 days getting to MasterI could spend 30g to buy an Adept, then spend 45 days getting to Master.I could spend 10p for an Expert, then spend 30 days getting to Master.... or spend 50-100p (midrange), and 0 days, for Master.With the level cap bumping up _about_ every 2 years, it's not unfair to consider 24 months as the opportunity for research. People with very little plat can still work up their 25-30 top-tier spells from Apprentice to Adept; with modest resources, start at Adept and Master one-quarter; with probably-typical, Master out everything; and as always, those with deep pockets can buy most/all Masters off-the-bat, and then Expert+Research any missing ones.[Of course, I expect the L91-100 to have slightly longer research times -- but the concept remains the same.]When we next think of level-lockers, I wonder how many are first-and-primary characters, and how many are alts/twinks. I suspect the vast majority the latter; accordingly, the resources available are high[er], and there's no reason they won't continue to seek Experts/Masters of the critical class spells/CAs. The only real change I foresee is they might actually pick up some Journeyman (or Adept) spells on-the-cheap, to research up -- I don't expect to see fewer Experts commissioned/purchased than happens now, as they weren't buying "the full set" before ... unless they were loaded anyway (my favorite kind of customer!)

Kordran

12-07-2010, 04:04 PM

<cite>Striikor@Nektulos wrote:</cite><blockquote>If you like to craft and want to make plat make an outfitter ...</blockquote>Having two of those, I must admit, this comment gave me a chuckle. Regardless, if you like to craft and want to make plat, take up adorning. 'Nuff said.

Megera

12-07-2010, 04:34 PM

I am now starting the 'Feed a Sage' movement. Look. I am not very happy with this from a crafter POV though as a cheap person who doesn't raid and doenst' rush to end game - i am happy i dont' have to cash out for upgrades.However. I leveled up my sage, alchemist and jeweler back in the days when it was holy crap hard and there were no guild harvesters. not easy. not quite as hard as the hard metal users, but still. Now they've been trivialized. Okay, lots of things happen, everyone's class gets trivialized somehow in this game at some point, i'll get over it.But - Let us examine something else. Jewelers make spell upgrades - and jewelry. Kinda nice, useful stuff.Alchemists make spell upgrades - and poisons and potions. Never leave home without em!Sages make spell upgrades and - . . .sure, you can get the quest at lvl 50 to make books. At lvl 50. Until LvL 50, you make spell upgrades. So while my initial feeling for my jeweler and alchemist is bummed but struggle on, still useful even if no one wants to buy spell upgrades anymore, my sage is standing there with 'dot dot dot' over his head in his thought balloon.Devs, please donate to stop Dot Dot Dot over the head of poor little malnourished sages! A consumable product for Sagecrafters could feed a sage today! Also, send bags and bags of lewt to me so i can work on this charity. I'll even employ gnomes.

Striikor

12-07-2010, 04:40 PM

<cite>Laiina wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Whilhelmina@Storms wrote:</cite><blockquote>I'm against this change for several reasons (I have 9 tradeskillers and I only craft spells for my husband and for random players needing a full set of spells at the start of a level increase):- less need of harvesting rares means less raws ressources on the broker/depot- less crafted spells means less dusts for mastercrafted potions and poisons, and we already saw previous to the last decap the problem of dusts.</blockquote>That part makes no sense. If there is LESS need, there should be MORE on broker. And I don't think you will see any difference at all in the demand for Experts anyway.</blockquote>Very basic supply and demand. Rares are not needed for experts therefore they will be used less. Subsequently they will start to stockpile. When they start to stockpile the price will drop. Ahhhhh but if they are cheaper who is going to spend the time harvesting them?Before you had to buy or make an expert to research a master. Now you can just research a master. If this doesn't negatively affect spell/ca crafting (which has admittedly become useless anyway) then EQ2 was intended to be FPS. It will and it wasn't.It is really no big loss though the only thing I see selling are consumables, food, drink, arrows, potions and poisons ohhh and temp adorns etc...Honestly how is a jeweler expected to make a living? Obamanomics in EQ2 LOL

Rijacki

12-07-2010, 06:49 PM

Experts should have an addition to the text on them: "Reduces the amount of time to research this spell/CA to master." That's all they are useful for since the RAs were added and even moreso now. The Research UI should note that there are crafted items (Journeyman and Experts) which will shorten the research time.

Calthine

12-07-2010, 06:55 PM

<cite>Rijacki wrote:</cite><blockquote>Experts should have an addition to the text on them: "Reduces the amount of time to research this spell/CA to master." That's all they are useful for since the RAs were added and even moreso now. The Research UI should note that there are crafted items (Journeyman and Experts) which will shorten the research time.</blockquote>The note would be nice. Tho I disagree on the Experts being worthless.

d1anaw

12-08-2010, 12:30 AM

It went live today. And look, the sky is in the same place it was yesterday. The world did not collapse. And I discovered that I had not upgraded my spells when I hit 90. I didn't have the rares at the time and when I got them, I forgot. So I had to ::::gasp::::: make about a dozen spells for myself.

Xaly

12-08-2010, 02:05 AM

What bothers me about this change is that I have to use it. I have to go into the knowledge book to research my spells. Functionality was removed from the Research Assistant amenity that is in my guild hall.Dealing with certain NPCs - such as the Research Assistant - is part of my gameplay. I liked it. Now it's been removed for further dumbing down of the game. It annoys me. I want functionality returned to the Research Assistant. I understand that other people prefer to use their own knowledge books for spell research and that's fine. I wouldn't interfere with that. But I would like the choice.

Tigress

12-08-2010, 03:49 AM

<cite>Asif wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>SmokeJumper wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Aemm@Splitpaw wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Laiina wrote:</cite><blockquote>It looks to me like what you are all complaining about is that you will now be able to spend an extra 2-3 weeks researching adepts to expert. Since the main market by far for adepts is for muting, not spell upgrades, I simply don't see that happening. About the only one satisfied with adepts are the pretty casual player - the same one that is not buying your Experts now anyway.</blockquote>And who will be buying Experts?All the players I know go straight to the Expert level spell as soon as, if not even before, they've levelled. Now they've the option of researching the Expert. It diminishes the saleability of craftables that use rare harvests, therefore it diminishes the role of three tradeskills.</blockquote>Who will buy Experts? Answer: People unwilling to wait the many weeks to upgrade each of their 30-40 spells from Adept to Expert via the Research widget. (This is the vast majority of players who are almost always wanting their power upgrades NOW! <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" />In other words, you will see basically no reduction in sales from this. I think we can all agree that we're not selling Journeyman spells anyway. (Yes, I have a level 90 alchemist.) And the market for Experts is not going to be greatly impacted, because the majority of such sales are from players that want an entire set of spells. Those people are not going to want to wait to piecemeal it up one spell at a time. You'll still get your regular sales.</blockquote>I totally agree with you on this . ( i also have a 90 sage and dont see the problem with this)</blockquote>i agree too! i have a level 82 sage, 41 alchemist & 71 jeweler. will i still be making all my guys their journeyman spells? YES! it'll save me the research time from apprentice to journeyman. will i still be making the key spells expert? YES! (the wait time is way too long as you get higher.)will i be making spare journeyman to sell? probably not. they didn't sell. i'll test it out and see if they sell and if they do, then more money for me! if not, i've lost nothing.if i had the plat to buy the rares for the expert spells, i would bc i'd by pass the wait time on my spells. im not a lucky harvester so i dont get rares too often. also-its logical to conclude that if i didn't have all three scholar types that i would buy the expert spells if i could afford it but i could not afford them atm. those that have the plat will still buy to save the time. this is a great change, thank you!

Tigress

12-08-2010, 04:02 AM

<cite>Rijacki wrote:</cite><blockquote>While this might not effect the last 10 levels, what about the previous 80? Yes, the lower levels go by fast, for alts and even new players, if you don't have your slider to 100% AA, but how many of the slide lockers will want to get Experts after this?Additionally, unless this new RA interface in some way indicates the Journeyman and Expert ones can be crafted (and one need not upgrade to -each- quality) to speed up time to get to the top of the research, new players and the players ignorant of the RA (for whom this is one of the targets) won't ever know you can get crafted upgrades. I've seen that with poisons and potions when I have explained to someone who hasn't heard of them but uses the NPC sold for poisons.Crafting is already marginalised in the game and shoved to the background as "fluff". Why should one more thing be taken away?</blockquote>im baffled by this. i've been playing only since the end of april. its not rocket science. i stumbled on the research assistant within the first week or so and clicked it. a detailed explanation was given. the first time that i met the assistant, i had no spells to be upgraded. i was able to easily figure out that researching my spells gave me better spells.when i had spells that were journeyman and expert, i could see that journeyman to adept was shorter time than expert to master. hitting K will pull it up so you no longer have to accidentally find the assistant. sure it will lack the detailed explanation but everybody will have apprentice spells and the person can easily figure out clicking research will upgrade their spell.it also didn't tkae me very long to realize that merchant items were junk. all you have to do is read the stats. the clothes have none and i wondered why would anybody even buy them. i guess i just fail to understand how someone could not figure this stuff out when its basic game mechanics and i figured it out with very little MMO experience.i do disagree on this being a bad change. i already explained why so, in brief, those buying the expert spells will want to buy them to save the time; those who did not buy will become more competitive in a year after they get all their upgrades (lol).

Marcusaval

12-08-2010, 06:01 AM

It's quite comon to Craft expert spells for players which frankly is not much of a source of income but does provide a supply of 'dusts' for crafting other potions. Most guilds are self suffcient in crafters to do this internally and I have never managed to make money from crafting as the market price unless you have the funds to completey corner the market will always be driven down to below your cost.It takes a long time to research spells so really a player is being given a choice research and wait along time or find someone to craft an expert spell for you, until such time as your lucky enough to buy an affordable Master or it drops for you. I know I have only researched 'rare drop ' masters which if they do appear on the Broker are criminially expensive.Yes its another care bear modification to the game making it easier to get things without putting in any effort but it seems to me the whole game has shifted to instant gratification. Crafting is much easier than it was thankfully, in the 'good old days' you had to craft the combines to make the items which was abolished some time ago.I dont see this as a threat to crafters as if you want a character to play instances at 90 your going to pay or ask a guildy to make experts for you as you will wait a year to research them all.

MurFalad

12-08-2010, 07:20 AM

<cite>Laiina wrote:</cite><blockquote>I have 5 90 crafters, 2 of them make spells or CA's, and for the past 2-3 years NOBODY buys Journeyman level spells. They are basically only good for leveling up tradeskills.</blockquote>I know they don't sell very well (Smokejumper admitted he's experienced that himself with his 90 Alchemist) but most spells I do buy are Journeyman level spells as I upgrade, since adepts often get transmuted and hence when for sale are rather expensive, since they are almost as good as adept but at a fraction of the price.So they still do fulfill a useful role, its just that they could be in better demand. I've suggested in the in-testing forums that perhaps we can have an interface change that allows us to scribe up to 3 more journeyman spells of the same type to speed up researching (10% for each one).It would be a simple change to understand for new players (since the interface just wouldn't show anything for apprentice/adept), and it would help increase the demand a little for journeyman spells. The idea could even be expanded to experts.