Fix the guardian stoneskins [Archive] - EQ2 Forum Archive @ EQ2Wire

RafaelSmith

12-02-2010, 04:52 PM

Bocon

12-02-2010, 07:05 PM

Yes the stoneskin is our best ability but they are way to short. I said if you have a great group wich includes a great healer then you probably won't need them. I am talking about the queen fight in cella or one of the many mobs in palace when you have large groups on you and you are dieing fast. You hit your save but they only last for a second because when you 5 or 6 mobs beating on you they each only have to hit you once and the stoneskin is gone. Other tanks have invulnerabities that last for 30 seconds. Which is going to take many more hits then the 4 you get with TOS or 7 you get with Last man standing. I don't think our stoneskins even compare to that. They need to last for a set amount of time. They are very much worthless in fights which have a large number of mobs. They work well against a single opponent but how often do you need them against a single mob, almost never. So, they are by and large broken and that is why I think they need to be fixed. If you are lucky enough to always have a good group then you probably don't care but I think the rest of us do.

Boli32

12-03-2010, 06:18 AM

Use Guardian Sphere or Defensive Minded when tanking swarms of mobs and equip a shield perhaps? and only use LMS or ToS when you spike.Both of those fights last a long time and no tank has full immunity up for the entire duration unless you have a *lot* of DPS on the palace one. it is all about bringing a healer who knows what they are doing and trying to reduce the incoming damage to assist. Equip a couple of stonewill items and try again <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />And fyi my pally only has 8s frontal melee immunity (not including strikethroughs) every 1m19s and I've tanked it just fine.... 15s every 1min total immunity... wow... just wow yeah that's a great idea for the guardian class <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> /petition

Bocon

12-03-2010, 12:01 PM

Tower of Stone only stoneskins for 4 hits and that doesnt even last a second in those mobs. It doesn't give the healer time to get you back to full health. Yes I am defensive and have a shield. Tower of Stone doesn't work without a shield. Yes, Guardian sphere helps but we need an immunity that lasts a given duration to give the healer time to get us back to full health. Last man standing only takes 7 hits, so even that doesn't help much and that is on a 5 minute recast. The guardian stoneskins are broken. They need to be fixed! The 8 seconds you get would be more then enough time to get you back to full health even if one or two of the mobs were not positioned correctly. A majority of the mobs are going to be in front of you. I know SK's get a 30 second immunity. That is enough time to get you to full health and go get a cup of coffee. I don't want to get in a which tank is better argument. I just think our stoneskins are broken and they need a duration associated with them.

Humayon

12-03-2010, 12:04 PM

<cite>Boli32 wrote:</cite><blockquote>And fyi my pally only has 8s frontal melee immunity (not including strikethroughs) every 1m19s and I've tanked it just fine.... 15s every 1min total immunity... wow... just wow yeah that's a great idea for the guardian class <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" /> /petition</blockquote>Hmm, checking, yup this is a guardian thread right. Check.Don't really know why i would be concerned about a class that i don't play. Check.There is a paladin thread. Check.Please click on this link if you mis-clicked the first time: <a href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/forums/show.m?forum_id=47" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/...w.m?forum_id=47</a>

Bruener

12-03-2010, 01:01 PM

<cite>Bocon@Permafrost wrote:</cite><blockquote>Yes the stoneskin is our best ability but they are way to short. I said if you have a great group wich includes a great healer then you probably won't need them. I am talking about the queen fight in cella or one of the many mobs in palace when you have large groups on you and you are dieing fast. You hit your save but they only last for a second because when you 5 or 6 mobs beating on you they each only have to hit you once and the stoneskin is gone. Other tanks have invulnerabities that last for 30 seconds. Which is going to take many more hits then the 4 you get with TOS or 7 you get with Last man standing. I don't think our stoneskins even compare to that. They need to last for a set amount of time. They are very much worthless in fights which have a large number of mobs. They work well against a single opponent but how often do you need them against a single mob, almost never. So, they are by and large broken and that is why I think they need to be fixed. If you are lucky enough to always have a good group then you probably don't care but I think the rest of us do.</blockquote>Really? SKs have a 30 sec immunity? Let me know what that ability is because I obviously need to spec for it.Try more like 15 sec on a 4 min recast, and it can be struck thru.

Bocon

12-03-2010, 01:47 PM

My apologies. I thought someone said it was 30 seconds. I don't play an SK. Again, I don't want to get in a class argument. I just think our stoneskins need a duration associated with them. They don't work with large number of mobs, when we need them most.

Motzi

12-03-2010, 02:06 PM

Betray to berserker for heroic/group content.Guardian class is only for raid tanking where damage is less frequent and comes in much larger amounts. In this situation stoneskins are very powerful. In heroic and pvp content, guardian stoneskins are mostly a joke.As a zerker you get 30s of all damage reduced by 50%. With proper buffs/gear this is up 30s of every minute.

Boli32

12-03-2010, 02:27 PM

<cite>Humayon wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Boli32 wrote:</cite><blockquote>And fyi my pally only has 8s frontal melee immunity (not including strikethroughs) every 1m19s and I've tanked it just fine.... 15s every 1min total immunity... wow... just wow yeah that's a great idea for the guardian class <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" /> /petition</blockquote>Hmm, checking, yup this is a guardian thread right. Check.Don't really know why i would be concerned about a class that i don't play. Check.There is a paladin thread. Check.Please click on this link if you mis-clicked the first time: <a rel="nofollow" href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/forums/show.m?forum_id=47" target="_blank">http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/...w.m?forum_id=47</a></blockquote>I'm just pointing out I have not nor never had 30s immunities and yes I can tank it just fine... even with n00bish healers/group; it just takes a bit of common sense. Shesh can't you guard's take a joke you spent the last 3 months shooting down all our ideas to get our heals fixed and then you lay up this 15s every 1min pernament stoneskin down as a "great improvement" and "balanced". If you don't think that's overpowered then you really need to retake maths again.The above abilities (GS DM) will not STOP damage... but they will REDUCE it; given its herioc content and contested avoidance works you should be able to pretty much avoid most of the hits as it is; a couple of stonewill items and any healer who could find their heal buttons could keep you alive.In short... equip your brain and when you have a duff group play it safe <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Bocon

12-03-2010, 03:26 PM

<cite>Tootles@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote>Betray to berserker for heroic/group content.Guardian class is only for raid tanking where damage is less frequent and comes in much larger amounts. In this situation stoneskins are very powerful. In heroic and pvp content, guardian stoneskins are mostly a joke.As a zerker you get 30s of all damage reduced by 50%. With proper buffs/gear this is up 30s of every minute.</blockquote>I was hoping it wouldn't come to that. I am starting to think that is what I have to do. We are not very wanted in raids anymore, as most people already know, so I do mostly group content. Ya, and in pvp he is a joke but I have other toons for that.

Bocon

12-03-2010, 03:34 PM

<cite>Boli32 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Humayon wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Boli32 wrote:</cite><blockquote>And fyi my pally only has 8s frontal melee immunity (not including strikethroughs) every 1m19s and I've tanked it just fine.... 15s every 1min total immunity... wow... just wow yeah that's a great idea for the guardian class <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" /> /petition</blockquote>Hmm, checking, yup this is a guardian thread right. Check.Don't really know why i would be concerned about a class that i don't play. Check.There is a paladin thread. Check.Please click on this link if you mis-clicked the first time: <a rel="nofollow" href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/forums/show.m?forum_id=47" target="_blank">http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/...w.m?forum_id=47</a></blockquote>I'm just pointing out I have not nor never had 30s immunities and yes I can tank it just fine... even with n00bish healers/group; it just takes a bit of common sense. Shesh can't you guard's take a joke you spent the last 3 months shooting down all our ideas to get our heals fixed and then you lay up this 15s every 1min pernament stoneskin down as a "great improvement" and "balanced". If you don't think that's overpowered then you really need to retake maths again.The above abilities (GS DM) will not STOP damage... but they will REDUCE it; given its herioc content and contested avoidance works you should be able to pretty much avoid most of the hits as it is; a couple of stonewill items and any healer who could find their heal buttons could keep you alive.In short... equip your brain and when you have a duff group play it safe <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" /></blockquote>Why the arrogance? I am looking for constructive feedback. If the only thing you can say is "...equip your brain" then stay out of the discussion. I know how to play my class.

Motzi

12-03-2010, 03:34 PM

<cite>Bocon@Permafrost wrote:</cite><blockquote><blockquote></blockquote>I was hoping it wouldn't come to that. I am starting to think that is what I have to do. We are not very wanted in raids anymore, as most people already know, so I do mostly group content. Ya, and in pvp he is a joke but I have other toons for that.</blockquote>If your guild is not working HM content, you have no need for a guard.If you are working HM content, your guild should probably pick one person to have a raid geared Guardian Alt.

Bocon

12-03-2010, 03:38 PM

<cite>Tootles@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Bocon@Permafrost wrote:</cite><blockquote><blockquote></blockquote>I was hoping it wouldn't come to that. I am starting to think that is what I have to do. We are not very wanted in raids anymore, as most people already know, so I do mostly group content. Ya, and in pvp he is a joke but I have other toons for that.</blockquote>If your guild is not working HM content, you have no need for a guard.If you are working HM content, your guild should probably pick one person to have a raid geared Guardian Alt.</blockquote>Unfortunately, you are probably right. That is why I am trying to make us more useful for the other content.

RafaelSmith

12-03-2010, 03:54 PM

Sorry but our Stoneskin abilities are fine and quite useful as they are.My guardian has no issues taking the DMG in any instance......even with less than stellar healers he does just fine....and does not rely soley on the Stoneskins. Only time I really rely heavly on the ToS or LMS or Dragoon is when im boxing some instances without a healer =PAnd the Cella queen fight is a gimmick fight......its not meant to be traditionally "tanked/healed" .....should not use that fight as any indicator of class weaknesses. If your group is doing the fight correctly you shouldnt even need stoneskins and as everyone knows heals on that fight are useless. If you think you need 30sec stoneskins to be able to do the Cella fight your doing the fight wrong.We do not need anymore "defensive" oriented buffs.What we need a significant boost in our DPS .....especially when using shield.

Motzi

12-03-2010, 04:18 PM

<cite>Gaylon@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote>My guardian has no issues taking the DMG in any instance......even with less than stellar healers he does just fine....and does not rely soley on the Stoneskins. Only time I really rely heavly on the ToS or LMS or Dragoon is when im boxing some instances without a healer =P</blockquote>While true, and true of my Guard alt, any other plate class would take even less damage in instances and do more dps at the same time.Now try it in pvp and see if you think you can absorb rapid small damage the same as other tanks.

Bocon

12-03-2010, 04:18 PM

<cite>Gaylon@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote>Sorry but our Stoneskin abilities are fine and quite useful as they are.My guardian has no issues taking the DMG in any instance......even with less than stellar healers he does just fine....and does not rely soley on the Stoneskins. Only time I really rely heavly on the ToS or LMS or Dragoon is when im boxing some instances without a healer =PAnd the Cella queen fight is a gimmick fight......its not meant to be traditionally "tanked/healed" .....should not use that fight as any indicator of class weaknesses. If your group is doing the fight correctly you shouldnt even need stoneskins and as everyone knows heals on that fight are useless. If you think you need 30sec stoneskins to be able to do the Cella fight your doing the fight wrong.We do not need anymore "defensive" oriented buffs.What we need a significant boost in our DPS .....especially when using shield.</blockquote>Thanks for the input. You are right cella is a bad example. But Palace is a perfect example. But again, I have to disagree with you. I don't think you are good example anyway. You are fully fabled, with raid gear I am sure the zone is easier for you then most. I have given up on the dps issue. It is a dead horse. But I do think that putting a duration on our stoneskins would be a lot more useful. It definately won't hurt us any, I am not sure why you are against it. Explain?

Bruener

12-03-2010, 04:38 PM

<cite>Bocon@Permafrost wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Gaylon@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote>Sorry but our Stoneskin abilities are fine and quite useful as they are.My guardian has no issues taking the DMG in any instance......even with less than stellar healers he does just fine....and does not rely soley on the Stoneskins. Only time I really rely heavly on the ToS or LMS or Dragoon is when im boxing some instances without a healer =PAnd the Cella queen fight is a gimmick fight......its not meant to be traditionally "tanked/healed" .....should not use that fight as any indicator of class weaknesses. If your group is doing the fight correctly you shouldnt even need stoneskins and as everyone knows heals on that fight are useless. If you think you need 30sec stoneskins to be able to do the Cella fight your doing the fight wrong.We do not need anymore "defensive" oriented buffs.What we need a significant boost in our DPS .....especially when using shield.</blockquote>Thanks for the input. You are right cella is a bad example. But Palace is a perfect example. But again, I have to disagree with you. I don't think you are good example anyway. You are fully fabled, with raid gear I am sure the zone is easier for you then most. I have given up on the dps issue. It is a dead horse. But I do think that putting a duration on our stoneskins would be a lot more useful. It definately won't hurt us any, I am not sure why you are against it. Explain?</blockquote>Maybe because some people actually enjoy balance?Do you spec Dragoons? That is very similar to the abilities other tanks have that you claim to be missing...a short duration buff that parries all attacks. Although I am sure most will tell you it is not an ability worth taking because it is not needed that badly compared to the AA cost for it.If they put a duration on stoneskins they would be extremely over-powered in raid content. At that point in order to put a duration on them they would have to lower their effectiveness changing the stoneskins into more of a damage reduction ability. Sort of like Adrenaline. Depending on the duration and the amount of stoneskins the damage reduction would have to be even less than Adrenaline.

Bocon

12-03-2010, 04:47 PM

<cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Bocon@Permafrost wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Gaylon@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote>Sorry but our Stoneskin abilities are fine and quite useful as they are.My guardian has no issues taking the DMG in any instance......even with less than stellar healers he does just fine....and does not rely soley on the Stoneskins. Only time I really rely heavly on the ToS or LMS or Dragoon is when im boxing some instances without a healer =PAnd the Cella queen fight is a gimmick fight......its not meant to be traditionally "tanked/healed" .....should not use that fight as any indicator of class weaknesses. If your group is doing the fight correctly you shouldnt even need stoneskins and as everyone knows heals on that fight are useless. If you think you need 30sec stoneskins to be able to do the Cella fight your doing the fight wrong.We do not need anymore "defensive" oriented buffs.What we need a significant boost in our DPS .....especially when using shield.</blockquote>Thanks for the input. You are right cella is a bad example. But Palace is a perfect example. But again, I have to disagree with you. I don't think you are good example anyway. You are fully fabled, with raid gear I am sure the zone is easier for you then most. I have given up on the dps issue. It is a dead horse. But I do think that putting a duration on our stoneskins would be a lot more useful. It definately won't hurt us any, I am not sure why you are against it. Explain?</blockquote>Maybe because some people actually enjoy balance?Do you spec Dragoons? That is very similar to the abilities other tanks have that you claim to be missing...a short duration buff that parries all attacks. Although I am sure most will tell you it is not an ability worth taking because it is not needed that badly compared to the AA cost for it.If they put a duration on stoneskins they would be extremely over-powered in raid content. At that point in order to put a duration on them they would have to lower their effectiveness changing the stoneskins into more of a damage reduction ability. Sort of like Adrenaline. Depending on the duration and the amount of stoneskins the damage reduction would have to be even less than Adrenaline.</blockquote>Balance? Are you kidding me? Then we are going to need a lot more then a duration on our stoneskins. No. I don't want dragoons. It is not worth taking. I have tried it.

Landiin

12-03-2010, 04:53 PM

Bruener talking about class balance? lol I know he don't want balance, he still believes SK are balanced.

Bocon

12-03-2010, 05:07 PM

<cite>Toranx@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote>Bruener talking about class balance? lol I know he don't want balance, he still believes SK are balanced.</blockquote>Ya. To balance the guardian with an SK you would need.1. To up our dps2. The ability to heal ourselves3. Feign Death4. evac5. An ability so we can't be feared.Did I miss anything? I think a simple duration to our stoneskins is not to much to ask for.

Yimway

12-03-2010, 06:41 PM

Be careful what you wish for, the expansion might just let you put another 50 aa in the existing trees.In which case taking DR will be worth the aa.

Bruener

12-03-2010, 06:57 PM

<cite>Bocon@Permafrost wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Toranx@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote>Bruener talking about class balance? lol I know he don't want balance, he still believes SK are balanced.</blockquote>Ya. To balance the guardian with an SK you would need.1. To up our dps2. The ability to heal ourselves3. Feign Death4. evac5. An ability so we can't be feared.Did I miss anything? I think a simple duration to our stoneskins is not to much to ask for.</blockquote>Oh I get it. Your one of those Guards that doesn't really like playing like a Guard and instead wants to play his tank like a SK.Go roll a SK with the rest of the nubs that can't read descriptions when they roll a class.

Bocon

12-03-2010, 07:13 PM

<cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Bocon@Permafrost wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Toranx@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote>Bruener talking about class balance? lol I know he don't want balance, he still believes SK are balanced.</blockquote>Ya. To balance the guardian with an SK you would need.1. To up our dps2. The ability to heal ourselves3. Feign Death4. evac5. An ability so we can't be feared.Did I miss anything? I think a simple duration to our stoneskins is not to much to ask for.</blockquote>Oh I get it. Your one of those Guards that doesn't really like playing like a Guard and instead wants to play his tank like a SK.Go roll a SK with the rest of the nubs that can't read descriptions when they roll a class.</blockquote>I did. The guardian should have the best defensive abilities and be able to take the most damage. That is what I am asking for. I fine with SKs doing more dps if we can take more damage. That is the way it was when I first created this class. I remember when you SKs used to ask if you could come along in the group for dps and no one wanted an SK tank. No where does it say this will all change down the road. I do like playing my guardian, I just think it is comical that you are talking about balance. Maybe you should go back and read the descriptions. Anyway I am done argueing with you. I didn't want this to be class vs class discussion but I can see that is impossible in these forums.

Humayon

12-04-2010, 01:44 PM

<cite>Boli32 wrote:</cite><blockquote>I'm just pointing out I have not nor never had 30s immunities and yes I can tank it just fine... even with n00bish healers/group; it just takes a bit of common sense. Shesh can't you guard's take a joke you spent the last 3 months shooting down all our ideas to get our heals fixed and then you lay up this 15s every 1min pernament stoneskin down as a "great improvement" and "balanced". If you don't think that's overpowered then you really need to retake maths again.The above abilities (GS DM) will not STOP damage... but they will REDUCE it; given its herioc content and contested avoidance works you should be able to pretty much avoid most of the hits as it is; a couple of stonewill items and any healer who could find their heal buttons could keep you alive.In short... equip your brain and when you have a duff group play it safe <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" /></blockquote>I think you misunderstood me. This is a guard thread and we just want the opinions of guardians who are currently playing full time ( i do not consider being in a top end guild and having your alt guard geared to the max as playing a guard). You can tank in odd groups with mediocre players on your paladin then good for you sir.As far as your attempt to dump, the nerf of your heal crits, blame on us is concerned then to be honest i personally did not know about until i read the update notes and frankly i couldn't care less about another tank class. I cannot speak for the whole guardian community but i can assert myself as being an antagonist to the whole notion of "nerfing a class to bring the other class in line". That is just plain studpidity and just illustrates how SOE have run out of ideas to balance the classes. I never feel the need or urge to go in another tank class thread and say, you know, this is way too overpowered nor do i start a rant about how to play the class with players who have seen and done it all just because i have an alt crusader for example.The point you made about about avoiding through contested avoidance is not entirely correct even if you state it is heroic content. In heroic content mobs just don't hit hard enough for avoidance to be an issue. The gear will most certainly help and so will a decent group setup with competant set of players.The guardians post gu 57 are better but still not a class that has written MT material all over it. I have played with some of the best crusaders on my server and they pretty much trample over guardians in almost all aspects even after the so-called heal crit nerfs but im willing to lean more towards player skill than gear here.So in short...please stick to your class and when we need your advice then surely you will see a thread about it in your class thread but for now i think we have enough good guardians left in the game to come up with something productive.

Bruener

12-04-2010, 03:21 PM

<cite>Humayon wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Boli32 wrote:</cite><blockquote>I'm just pointing out I have not nor never had 30s immunities and yes I can tank it just fine... even with n00bish healers/group; it just takes a bit of common sense. Shesh can't you guard's take a joke you spent the last 3 months shooting down all our ideas to get our heals fixed and then you lay up this 15s every 1min pernament stoneskin down as a "great improvement" and "balanced". If you don't think that's overpowered then you really need to retake maths again.The above abilities (GS DM) will not STOP damage... but they will REDUCE it; given its herioc content and contested avoidance works you should be able to pretty much avoid most of the hits as it is; a couple of stonewill items and any healer who could find their heal buttons could keep you alive.In short... equip your brain and when you have a duff group play it safe <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" /></blockquote>I think you misunderstood me. This is a guard thread and we just want the opinions of guardians who are currently playing full time ( i do not consider being in a top end guild and having your alt guard geared to the max as playing a guard). You can tank in odd groups with mediocre players on your paladin then good for you sir.As far as your attempt to dump, the nerf of your heal crits, blame on us is concerned then to be honest i personally did not know about until i read the update notes and frankly i couldn't care less about another tank class. I cannot speak for the whole guardian community but i can assert myself as being an antagonist to the whole notion of "nerfing a class to bring the other class in line". That is just plain studpidity and just illustrates how SOE have run out of ideas to balance the classes. I never feel the need or urge to go in another tank class thread and say, you know, this is way too overpowered nor do i start a rant about how to play the class with players who have seen and done it all just because i have an alt crusader for example.The point you made about about avoiding through contested avoidance is not entirely correct even if you state it is heroic content. In heroic content mobs just don't hit hard enough for avoidance to be an issue. The gear will most certainly help and so will a decent group setup with competant set of players.The guardians post gu 57 are better but still not a class that has written MT material all over it. I have played with some of the best crusaders on my server and they pretty much trample over guardians in almost all aspects even after the so-called heal crit nerfs but im willing to lean more towards player skill than gear here.So in short...please stick to your class and when we need your advice then surely you will see a thread about it in your class thread but for now i think we have enough good guardians left in the game to come up with something productive.</blockquote>Well considering the OP was about comparing Guard stoneskins to supposed other Fighter abilities it seems perfectly logical for other fighters to correct the ASSumptions made by the OP and throughout the thread.The claim of other tanks having of 30 seconds of immunity is ridiculous and completely false. That was the basis of the whole OP when trying to ask for duration on Stoneskins. So since the basis of the OP was on that, and that info was completely false, why exactly does this thread exist?

Rahatmattata

12-05-2010, 01:49 PM

It's funny boil and brownie feel the need to take a big steaming dump in every guard thread on this board in the last 6 months. You guys must really hate guardians. I'm sorry if your daddy touched you and plays a guard, but chill out.

Bocon

12-05-2010, 03:18 PM

<cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Humayon wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Boli32 wrote:</cite><blockquote>I'm just pointing out I have not nor never had 30s immunities and yes I can tank it just fine... even with n00bish healers/group; it just takes a bit of common sense. Shesh can't you guard's take a joke you spent the last 3 months shooting down all our ideas to get our heals fixed and then you lay up this 15s every 1min pernament stoneskin down as a "great improvement" and "balanced". If you don't think that's overpowered then you really need to retake maths again.The above abilities (GS DM) will not STOP damage... but they will REDUCE it; given its herioc content and contested avoidance works you should be able to pretty much avoid most of the hits as it is; a couple of stonewill items and any healer who could find their heal buttons could keep you alive.In short... equip your brain and when you have a duff group play it safe <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" /></blockquote>I think you misunderstood me. This is a guard thread and we just want the opinions of guardians who are currently playing full time ( i do not consider being in a top end guild and having your alt guard geared to the max as playing a guard). You can tank in odd groups with mediocre players on your paladin then good for you sir.As far as your attempt to dump, the nerf of your heal crits, blame on us is concerned then to be honest i personally did not know about until i read the update notes and frankly i couldn't care less about another tank class. I cannot speak for the whole guardian community but i can assert myself as being an antagonist to the whole notion of "nerfing a class to bring the other class in line". That is just plain studpidity and just illustrates how SOE have run out of ideas to balance the classes. I never feel the need or urge to go in another tank class thread and say, you know, this is way too overpowered nor do i start a rant about how to play the class with players who have seen and done it all just because i have an alt crusader for example.The point you made about about avoiding through contested avoidance is not entirely correct even if you state it is heroic content. In heroic content mobs just don't hit hard enough for avoidance to be an issue. The gear will most certainly help and so will a decent group setup with competant set of players.The guardians post gu 57 are better but still not a class that has written MT material all over it. I have played with some of the best crusaders on my server and they pretty much trample over guardians in almost all aspects even after the so-called heal crit nerfs but im willing to lean more towards player skill than gear here.So in short...please stick to your class and when we need your advice then surely you will see a thread about it in your class thread but for now i think we have enough good guardians left in the game to come up with something productive.</blockquote>Well considering the OP was about comparing Guard stoneskins to supposed other Fighter abilities it seems perfectly logical for other fighters to correct the ASSumptions made by the OP and throughout the thread.The claim of other tanks having of 30 seconds of immunity is ridiculous and completely false. That was the basis of the whole OP when trying to ask for duration on Stoneskins. So since the basis of the OP was on that, and that info was completely false, why exactly does this thread exist?</blockquote>This thread exists to fix the guardian stoneskins. They work well against single mobs but they don't work against group mobs. Adding a duration would fix that. If adding a duration to the guardian stoneskin makes it the best defensive abiltity in the game, well it should because guardians should have the best defensive abilties in the game.The original post didn't mention any other tank classes specifically. You come in here specifially to derail the discussions. You don't have a guardian so stay out.I did figure out why you are in here. You have over 375 days of play time on your SK. You have no life and have nothing else to do. You are probably the guy they based that South Park episode after.

Bruener

12-05-2010, 05:34 PM

<cite>Bocon@Permafrost wrote:</cite><blockquote>I just can't do the hard instances unless I am with a ridiculously good group. My guard has some raid gear and some bg gear. He is not the greatest but he is not a puss as far as guards go. I am not going to even mention DPS. But our stoneskins are crap. Tower of Stone takes 4 hits and and Last man Standing takes 7 hits. When there are multiple mobs like most of the hard zones have they last only about 1 second. Other tanks have invulnerabilities that last for 30 seconds. That is many times better. Tower of Stone should stone skin for 15 seconds and Last man standing should last for 30 seconds. Anything else is unacceptable. My guardian can't guard crap because he is dead.FIX THE STONESKINS!!!</blockquote>Ok so this is what the OP was. It looks to me that you are complaining about "hard" instances being too tough for your Guard since his multiple amounts of stoneskins aren't 30 sec invulnerabilities that supposedly other tanks have.So here is everything that is wrong with your post.First, as other people have pointed out, even quite a few of your fellow Guards, there are no "hard" instances that Guards have trouble with. The instances are all pretty laughable and there is nothing a healer can't overcome with a mediocre tank.Second, you claim your stoneskins are crap, but the truth of the matter is that stoneskins are an extremely powerful ability and scale up to be more powerful the harder the content. Since a single stoneskin can block an unlimited amount of damage from a single hit. Furthermore the stoneskins can absorb any type of damage, not just melee. This xpac has moved more towards AE/spell damage being huge spike factors versus in the past melee was.Third, you claim that other tanks have invulnerabilities that last 30 seconds. That is completely false. There is not a single tank out there that has a 30 sec invulnerability. Zerkers have 30 sec of 50% damage reduction on like a 1 min recast. Paladins have their 8 sec Parry (note only works on melee attacks) on like a 1 min recast. SKs have their 15 sec Furor on like a 2:30 recast with good reuse (again this is Riposte which only works on melee attacks and can be struck thru). Brawlers have their 12 sec Tsunami on a 1 min recast (again Melee only). The abilities you are targetting are much shorter than what you lead on and are for melee only. Not to mention that as a Guard you can in fact spec for a similar ability that would allow you to Parry all incoming Melee attacks for a short time.Finally, what you propose is way OP'd giving a class that already has very powerful abilities to absorb damage the ability to become invulnerable for half the time they are tanking. Its like Adrenaline on crack.And thanks for looking up my playtime. Yes I have played since launch and have seen a lot in the tanking world. Maybe you should listen to people that obviously know the game a lot better than you do.

Soul_Dreamer

12-06-2010, 07:57 AM

I've not logged in outside of a raid for ages but even a couple of months ago there wasn't a single "Hard" instance and from your gear you're not trying the new HM Guk instance.For heroic content though if you really want to play a Guardian you should be specced for AOE auto attack to help on hate, in which case it's a couple of points to Dragoons. This is the only real ability that is similar to what you're asking for, the only other 2 are Defensive Minded(DM) and Guardian Sphere (GS). GS will help a lot with lots of mobs on you, Defensive minded will help slightly but it's main use is the recast reduction. You can actually combine the 2 so you get the Stoneskin proc and 20% avoidance while reducing the recast of GS, so it's up earlier next time. If you're having that much trouble though betray to Zerker, they are far better in Heroic content and actually pretty much even in raid content now.Guardians need their mitigation buffs changed to damage reduction to make them actually useful, our abilities that can still kill us fixing so they can be used and a slight increase in DPS when behind a shield.The only other thing I'd like but will more than likely never happen is Tower of stone reduced from a 2 min base recast to a 1min 20 sec base recast so with full recast on it, it can be up every AOE set so we can use it to block 1 AOE every set like a Zerker can reduce ALL AOE's by 50%.You're wrong Bruener, Adrenalin has a 30 second recast (recast starts when ability ends) and you've forgotten to mention that SK's and Paladins also have Legionarres Conviction (40% Spell damage reduction 3 min recast, with a 200% damage reflect). Yes a Guardians stone skins are powerful in stopping spike damage, but over the course of a fight a lot of the other fighters abilities will stop more damage to the fighter than a Guardians stone skins will. Stone skins are situational and aren't useful in the way the OP wants them to be useful in.

Boli32

12-06-2010, 08:42 AM

<cite>Soul_Dreamer wrote:</cite><blockquote>You're wrong Bruener, Adrenalin has a 30 second recast (recast starts when ability ends) and you've forgotten to mention that SK's and Paladins also have Legionarres Conviction (40% Spell damage reduction 3 min recast, with a 200% damage reflect). Yes a Guardians stone skins are powerful in stopping spike damage, but over the course of a fight a lot of the other fighters abilities will stop more damage to the fighter than a Guardians stone skins will. Stone skins are situational and aren't useful in the way the OP wants them to be useful in.</blockquote>Its only a 40% damage reduction, not 100% which stoneskins are; and only reduces spell damage not both. Of course the damage part of the buff is too OPed and should have never been there in the first place but the point is that is only spell damage not both and only reduces damage not prevent entirely.What the OP is complaining about is the number of triggers so for easier content you will still get hit by the majority of the hits instead of a duration effect other tanks have (abit with drawbacks).The fact remains to each immunity or damage reduction there are drawbacks associated with each one. Guardian's drawback is a set number of triggers, which means the ability is more suited to single harder hitting named than lots of small hitting named. In anythign but swarms of smaller mobs the guardian abilities are BETTER than the other tanks; and even then you still have abilities to assist you with swarms of mobs (DM/GS).Of all the things guardians need tweaks on... their stoneskin based abilities are NOT one of them.

Soul_Dreamer

12-06-2010, 09:57 AM

<---- [Removed for Content] is with the Christmas tree??? BAH HUMBUG!Pretty sure I said it was spell damage reduction, Bruener started in with listing abilities other tanks have and saying they where Melee ONLY disregarding the fact that crusaders have this ability which works with spells ONLY. I know exactly what the OP is complaining about and I've already stated the the Stone skins a Guardian has aren't meant for that type of encounter and are situational. If he wants abilities for that sort of thing then he needs to use GS/DM or spec for Dragoons, seriously Boli, do you even read before you reply?

Boli32

12-06-2010, 11:05 AM

You did, I was just expanded on what is a spell damage only ability.My main point being all damage immunities have SOME drawback for the two stoneskin like abilities guardian's get.. its number of triggers.

Bocon

12-06-2010, 12:14 PM

Thanks for all of the information. I know that I am not the only one struggling with this zone (Palace). I have been in there with a number of other tanks on my wizard and they all agree this is a hard zone. I have never been to this zone where we don't die at least a few times. Even when the tank is full raid geared. That being said, I can tell it easier for other tanks then it is for my guardian. Because when things start going bad, they have abilities that can help get us out of trouble. The guardian abilities don't help in those situations. I don't know what an appropriate duration should be for our stoneskins, I was just suggesting times. I would let SOE or someone who knows the other tanks better then me decide.I am struggling with the guardian because he is not wanted on raids and other tanks can do the group zones better then I can. Maybe it is a skill issue but I have had people say I play my guardian well. I am sure there are people who play a lot better then me but I don't believe I am horrible. My guardian was my main forever but I have switched to my wizard because I had no choice. The guardian is not wanted on raids, he can't do group zones as well as other tanks, and he is laughable in the battlegrounds. When I run across a guardian in the bgs on my wizard I am embarassed for them because I know they will be dead shortly and I will be at full health unless they have two healers following them.I just think Guardians should have the best defensive abilities in the game. I don't think they should be situational. I think they should be the best all of the time. If they are not, then what use is the guardian?

Bocon

12-06-2010, 12:25 PM

<cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Bocon@Permafrost wrote:</cite><blockquote>I just can't do the hard instances unless I am with a ridiculously good group. My guard has some raid gear and some bg gear. He is not the greatest but he is not a puss as far as guards go. I am not going to even mention DPS. But our stoneskins are crap. Tower of Stone takes 4 hits and and Last man Standing takes 7 hits. When there are multiple mobs like most of the hard zones have they last only about 1 second. Other tanks have invulnerabilities that last for 30 seconds. That is many times better. Tower of Stone should stone skin for 15 seconds and Last man standing should last for 30 seconds. Anything else is unacceptable. My guardian can't guard crap because he is dead.FIX THE STONESKINS!!!</blockquote>Ok so this is what the OP was. It looks to me that you are complaining about "hard" instances being too tough for your Guard since his multiple amounts of stoneskins aren't 30 sec invulnerabilities that supposedly other tanks have.So here is everything that is wrong with your post.First, as other people have pointed out, even quite a few of your fellow Guards, there are no "hard" instances that Guards have trouble with. The instances are all pretty laughable and there is nothing a healer can't overcome with a mediocre tank.Second, you claim your stoneskins are crap, but the truth of the matter is that stoneskins are an extremely powerful ability and scale up to be more powerful the harder the content. Since a single stoneskin can block an unlimited amount of damage from a single hit. Furthermore the stoneskins can absorb any type of damage, not just melee. This xpac has moved more towards AE/spell damage being huge spike factors versus in the past melee was.Third, you claim that other tanks have invulnerabilities that last 30 seconds. That is completely false. There is not a single tank out there that has a 30 sec invulnerability. Zerkers have 30 sec of 50% damage reduction on like a 1 min recast. Paladins have their 8 sec Parry (note only works on melee attacks) on like a 1 min recast. SKs have their 15 sec Furor on like a 2:30 recast with good reuse (again this is Riposte which only works on melee attacks and can be struck thru). Brawlers have their 12 sec Tsunami on a 1 min recast (again Melee only). The abilities you are targetting are much shorter than what you lead on and are for melee only. Not to mention that as a Guard you can in fact spec for a similar ability that would allow you to Parry all incoming Melee attacks for a short time.Finally, what you propose is way OP'd giving a class that already has very powerful abilities to absorb damage the ability to become invulnerable for half the time they are tanking. Its like Adrenaline on crack.And thanks for looking up my playtime. Yes I have played since launch and have seen a lot in the tanking world. Maybe you should listen to people that obviously know the game a lot better than you do.</blockquote>Thanks for the info. If you are genuinely here to help then I apologize. It seemed like you were here just to argue at first and it seems like you have something against guards. Again, I think the guardians defensive abilities should be the best in all cases because that is what we are here for. I agree the stoneskins are probably the best in raid situations but those of us that don't get to raid with our guards are kind of screwed. I don't want to roll another class but at this point I am not sure what else to do.

Soul_Dreamer

12-06-2010, 01:07 PM

As Boli and Bruener have said, you can't have ToS and LMS on durations with unlimited charges due to how overpowered it would be, they would then have to be % chance to proc a stone skin and so can't be relied upon 100% like they can now to stop damage when they need to. You then end up with 3 different versions of Guardian Sphere, YAY!The questions you're asking most Guardians have been asking for quite a while.The only thing a Guardian does well is tank single mobs and take the damage from the single mob. This doesn't transfer well to Heroic instance tanking due to the large AOE encounters and the fact a Guardian pays a LARGE amount of DPS for those 2 spike handeling tools. The fact is a Guardian "Should" have more over the other tanks than they currently do defensively, due to our higher mitigation, but due to a bug we don't. All tanks have relatively equal mitigation so take pretty much the same amount of damage. The only real things that make a difference currently are self heals and temp reduction abilities. Paladins and Zerkers having innate/often useable DR abilities mean they are actually ahead of us slightly in sustained damage reduction, they also have higher DPS and hate. SK's have high DPS and hate and while they take the most damage of the 4 plate tanks they have BL to offset this slightly and some other abilities to reduce damage on longer recasts. Guardians have a couple of abilities that can STOP damage for a short period but they aren't very good on encounters of 2 mobs or more really and they have lower DPS and hate. As a Guardian who only really plays in groups and raids every so often I'd betray, there's nothing stopping you and you'll keep all current masters if you decide to go back. As a Zerker you'll have higher DPS and make an excellent group tank/raid OT and also a capable raid MT.If you want to stay a Guardian then you'll need to invest in some SW proc gear from the sounds of things and change your AA spec slightly to make up in areas you're currently lacking in. Not to be patronising but go through your defensive abilities and look at how they can be combined, DM and GS can be used with an overlap that will add a large chunk of avoidance, close to 50% for almost 30 seconds, DM will also reduce the recast of abilities while it's up so you can use it to spike DPS (Hate). I'm sure Boli and Bruener will throw their toys out of the pram for saying this but.... a Guardian isn't as easy to play as the other plate tanks, a lot of our abilities have to be used correctly/in the right order/proactively to get the most out of them and to maximise DPS.As I said though, Zerker is the way to go for you IMO.

Wasuna

12-06-2010, 01:22 PM

It's a very old argument. Guardian stoneskins aren't broken. The expectations of what Guardians 'should' be able to do is broken by what some of the other fighter classes 'can' do. Guardians can't do what some other fighters can and we get NOTHING in return to compensate us for that.Stoneskins are very powerful in the right situation. Unfortunatly that right situations are few and far between. Some here seem to think that those 1-2 raid mob situations make all the fighter classes balanced even though they have self wards/heals, always up multiple triggers of death save and 50% Damage Reduction for 50% of the time.

Bocon

12-06-2010, 01:53 PM

<cite>Soul_Dreamer wrote:</cite><blockquote>As Boli and Bruener have said, you can't have ToS and LMS on durations with unlimited charges due to how overpowered it would be, they would then have to be % chance to proc a stone skin and so can't be relied upon 100% like they can now to stop damage when they need to. You then end up with 3 different versions of Guardian Sphere, YAY!The questions you're asking most Guardians have been asking for quite a while.The only thing a Guardian does well is tank single mobs and take the damage from the single mob. This doesn't transfer well to Heroic instance tanking due to the large AOE encounters and the fact a Guardian pays a LARGE amount of DPS for those 2 spike handeling tools. The fact is a Guardian "Should" have more over the other tanks than they currently do defensively, due to our higher mitigation, but due to a bug we don't. All tanks have relatively equal mitigation so take pretty much the same amount of damage. The only real things that make a difference currently are self heals and temp reduction abilities. Paladins and Zerkers having innate/often useable DR abilities mean they are actually ahead of us slightly in sustained damage reduction, they also have higher DPS and hate. SK's have high DPS and hate and while they take the most damage of the 4 plate tanks they have BL to offset this slightly and some other abilities to reduce damage on longer recasts. Guardians have a couple of abilities that can STOP damage for a short period but they aren't very good on encounters of 2 mobs or more really and they have lower DPS and hate. As a Guardian who only really plays in groups and raids every so often I'd betray, there's nothing stopping you and you'll keep all current masters if you decide to go back. As a Zerker you'll have higher DPS and make an excellent group tank/raid OT and also a capable raid MT.If you want to stay a Guardian then you'll need to invest in some SW proc gear from the sounds of things and change your AA spec slightly to make up in areas you're currently lacking in. Not to be patronising but go through your defensive abilities and look at how they can be combined, DM and GS can be used with an overlap that will add a large chunk of avoidance, close to 50% for almost 30 seconds, DM will also reduce the recast of abilities while it's up so you can use it to spike DPS (Hate). I'm sure Boli and Bruener will throw their toys out of the pram for saying this but.... a Guardian isn't as easy to play as the other plate tanks, a lot of our abilities have to be used correctly/in the right order/proactively to get the most out of them and to maximise DPS.As I said though, Zerker is the way to go for you IMO.</blockquote>Thanks again. I will look at combining DM and GS. I haven't tried that. I just don't want to go through the work of getting the fabled weapon, mythical, and enervated again if I betray. But this was very helpful.

Soul_Dreamer

12-06-2010, 02:07 PM

<cite>Wasuna wrote:</cite><blockquote>It's a very old argument. Guardian stoneskins aren't broken. The expectations of what Guardians 'should' be able to do is broken by what some of the other fighter classes 'can' do. Guardians can't do what some other fighters can and we get NOTHING in return to compensate us for that.Stoneskins are very powerful in the right situation. Unfortunatly that right situations are few and far between. Some here seem to think that those 1-2 raid mob situations make all the fighter classes balanced even though they have self wards/heals, always up multiple triggers of death save and 50% Damage Reduction for 50% of the time.</blockquote>I agree completely.The argument that "Every tank can tank all content but differently" says it should be so, if other tanks can take the damage of every mob out there, and the incomming damage is within a couple of percent (which is the case) then the outgoing damage and utility needs to also be within a couple of percent. The mitigation fix was meant to change this so that Guardians once again had a defensive advantage but the other tanks shouted it down and it's been postponed till the expansion, if it even releases then, because they whined they may not be able to tank the content they do now in the same way.Other tanks argue that we can't have similar DPS due to our "Stone skins" being so good, everytime I've argued the other way they just shout us down.Our stone skins can absorb 1 AOE out of a set of 3 (most mobs) about 75% of the time due to recasts, to do this it has to be timed to the second. A Berzerker can reduce EVERY SINGLE AOE by 50%, and they can do it by popping 1 ability anywhere form 1 seconds before the AOE set starts to 15 seconds before. Then if you look at the AOE damage, snaps and other tools a Berzerker has.... where exactly are they paying for that damage reduction in the same way a Guardian has to pay for it?

Soul_Dreamer

12-06-2010, 02:08 PM

<cite>Bocon@Permafrost wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Soul_Dreamer wrote:</cite><blockquote>As Boli and Bruener have said, you can't have ToS and LMS on durations with unlimited charges due to how overpowered it would be, they would then have to be % chance to proc a stone skin and so can't be relied upon 100% like they can now to stop damage when they need to. You then end up with 3 different versions of Guardian Sphere, YAY!The questions you're asking most Guardians have been asking for quite a while.The only thing a Guardian does well is tank single mobs and take the damage from the single mob. This doesn't transfer well to Heroic instance tanking due to the large AOE encounters and the fact a Guardian pays a LARGE amount of DPS for those 2 spike handeling tools. The fact is a Guardian "Should" have more over the other tanks than they currently do defensively, due to our higher mitigation, but due to a bug we don't. All tanks have relatively equal mitigation so take pretty much the same amount of damage. The only real things that make a difference currently are self heals and temp reduction abilities. Paladins and Zerkers having innate/often useable DR abilities mean they are actually ahead of us slightly in sustained damage reduction, they also have higher DPS and hate. SK's have high DPS and hate and while they take the most damage of the 4 plate tanks they have BL to offset this slightly and some other abilities to reduce damage on longer recasts. Guardians have a couple of abilities that can STOP damage for a short period but they aren't very good on encounters of 2 mobs or more really and they have lower DPS and hate. As a Guardian who only really plays in groups and raids every so often I'd betray, there's nothing stopping you and you'll keep all current masters if you decide to go back. As a Zerker you'll have higher DPS and make an excellent group tank/raid OT and also a capable raid MT.If you want to stay a Guardian then you'll need to invest in some SW proc gear from the sounds of things and change your AA spec slightly to make up in areas you're currently lacking in. Not to be patronising but go through your defensive abilities and look at how they can be combined, DM and GS can be used with an overlap that will add a large chunk of avoidance, close to 50% for almost 30 seconds, DM will also reduce the recast of abilities while it's up so you can use it to spike DPS (Hate). I'm sure Boli and Bruener will throw their toys out of the pram for saying this but.... a Guardian isn't as easy to play as the other plate tanks, a lot of our abilities have to be used correctly/in the right order/proactively to get the most out of them and to maximise DPS.As I said though, Zerker is the way to go for you IMO.</blockquote>Thanks again. I will look at combining DM and GS. I haven't tried that. I just don't want to go through the work of getting the fabled weapon, mythical, and enervated again if I betray. But this was very helpful.</blockquote>Go to Nek docs, if you have the Buff and the stripped fabled weapon then you can buy the Berzerker version when you betray. Only thing you'll need are seals for red adorns (to switch over any raid armour), Adept 3's or masters and time to learn the class.

Bocon

12-06-2010, 02:13 PM

Vlahkmaak

12-07-2010, 04:11 AM

Bocon

12-07-2010, 03:33 PM

<cite>Vlahkmaak@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Bocon@Permafrost wrote:</cite><blockquote>I just can't do the hard instances unless I am with a ridiculously good group. My guard has some raid gear and some bg gear. He is not the greatest but he is not a puss as far as guards go. I am not going to even mention DPS. But our stoneskins are crap. Tower of Stone takes 4 hits and and Last man Standing takes 7 hits. When there are multiple mobs like most of the hard zones have they last only about 1 second. Other tanks have invulnerabilities that last for 30 seconds. That is many times better. Tower of Stone should stone skin for 15 seconds and Last man standing should last for 30 seconds. Anything else is unacceptable. My guardian can't guard crap because he is dead.FIX THE STONESKINS!!!</blockquote>Stone skins are not the problem - grp make up is the problem. Bring alot of DPS and this fight is cake. There is no reason to die at all. A guardian can aoe tank both of these zones just fine. Personally I prefer to always grp with a dirge and templar = more stone skins. If thats not avail a good shaman or inqy is hard to beat too. Just take the time to build proper grps and the zones are that much more fun. Stoneskins do not need to be fixed - they are just not broken. More DPS is all we need to compete with the other plate tanks on more equal footing.</blockquote>Yes, a good group helps alot. I am not always lucky enough to get an ideal group. It would be nice to have tools to help out with large mobs when the group makeup is not the best. Yes I would love more dps. If all tanks get equal dps and equal defensive abilities then what is the point of having different tank types? I would be happy with more dps I just thought it would be more logical to ask for better defensive abilties but it doesn't sound like to many people agree with me.

Gungo

12-07-2010, 06:23 PM

Dragoon reflexes has a duration and is useful in heroic content if that is what you are looking for.Use the AA mirror and create a heroic Spec since there are alot of warrior/guardian abilites that are useful for heroic content.

Yimway

12-07-2010, 07:30 PM

<cite>Soul_Dreamer wrote:</cite><blockquote>Other tanks argue that we can't have similar DPS due to our "Stone skins" being so good, everytime I've argued the other way they just shout us down.Our stone skins can absorb 1 AOE out of a set of 3 (most mobs) about 75% of the time due to recasts, to do this it has to be timed to the second. A Berzerker can reduce EVERY SINGLE AOE by 50%, and they can do it by popping 1 ability anywhere form 1 seconds before the AOE set starts to 15 seconds before. Then if you look at the AOE damage, snaps and other tools a Berzerker has.... where exactly are they paying for that damage reduction in the same way a Guardian has to pay for it? </blockquote>Good luck to you.Having been very active over the past few years, been in the influencer program with SoE and had more access than most, the one reality I've come to face is the painfully slow timeline anything gets done about class issues.You're realistically looking at an 18 month lag in getting any fixes addressed. 90% of what will be addressed from a class standpoint is decided 6 months before expansion release, and virtually no input is addressed leading up to or after release. Couple with that timeline an average chain in producers every 18 months as well and its a recipe for lethargy.My expectation is, you can make all the case you want for change in beta, but by the time they let you into beta there is no time to really address anything. Beta is just an opportunity to frame what is wrong, then you have 6 months post expansion to try to make any point to get on the radar for what will be addressed at the following expansion. In the interim your stuck with broken / shoddy mechanics with no expectation of change.I've watched too many class issues that soe is fully aware of go unaddressed for too long that I simply can't find it in me to give a [Removed for Content] about it or this game anymore.

Legion2024

12-08-2010, 04:43 AM

my 2c worth, lol i think there are not many verywell played guards leftonly difference between all other tanks is one thing HEALS, anything a sk pally zerk "leather tanks are not tanks" i do as well if not better, only thing i can not do is heal, but as a tank why would i need to heal i am good enough not to need it <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> pitty those thats that do need to self heal only says one thing about your class and the player.......... and you all know what that is..............truth Guards ROCK allways have and allways will, pitty its about how the player plays and not the class, but then again what would i know i only have 144days played on my guard

Bocon

12-08-2010, 12:05 PM

<cite>Legion2024 wrote:</cite><blockquote>my 2c worth, lol i think there are not many verywell played guards leftonly difference between all other tanks is one thing HEALS, anything a sk pally zerk "leather tanks are not tanks" i do as well if not better, only thing i can not do is heal, but as a tank why would i need to heal i am good enough not to need it <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" /> pitty those thats that do need to self heal only says one thing about your class and the player.......... and you all know what that is..............truth Guards ROCK allways have and allways will, pitty its about how the player plays and not the class, but then again what would i know i only have 144days played on my guard</blockquote>Why come to the forums and just throw out a couple of insults? Try dueling an SK with roughly the same gear as you. You will die and he will be at full health. You are disillusioned. If you are on the permafrost server I will show you myself how fast you face plant.

Wasuna

12-08-2010, 04:02 PM

<cite>Legion2024 wrote:</cite><blockquote>my 2c worth, lol i think there are not many verywell played guards leftonly difference between all other tanks is one thing HEALS, anything a sk pally zerk "leather tanks are not tanks" i do as well if not better, only thing i can not do is heal, but as a tank why would i need to heal i am good enough not to need it <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" /> pitty those thats that do need to self heal only says one thing about your class and the player.......... and you all know what that is..............truth Guards ROCK allways have and allways will, pitty its about how the player plays and not the class, but then again what would i know i only have 144days played on my guard</blockquote>I'd have to check but I have something like 300 days played on my Guardian. I get comments all the time like- I've never grouped with a Guardian- Glad to see some good Guardians still around- Good job holding agro. I didn't think Guardians could- etc.The problem is when I play my Wiizard or Troubador I see what the other side has. Fights where the group had less DPS and weaker healing than my Guardian did for tough fights were just flat cake walks where the Guardian had to strugle just to get through it. The population numbers show facts. You can claim what you want.

Landiin

12-08-2010, 04:57 PM

Just another anonymous poster, probably don't even play a guard or has a level 30ish one.

Draylore

12-08-2010, 07:53 PM

I have a total of two EQ2 toons.........each on a seperate account so I get to box them often. One if my Guardian the other my Assassin. ATM my Assassin is my main raid toon and is geared very well....much better than my Guard although I have had the chance to get some nice raid gear for my Guardian.This has allowed me to see pretty much all angles of the current Guardian situation.......1) Before obtaining some of the better raid gear and the various Stonewill, Threat proc gear the Guardian was way behind other fighters that didnt have such gear as well......in all areas.........tanking, aggro and of course DPS. Once I got the better gear then he was on par with them regardless of gear. Not sure if that is considered good balance or not but it is what it is. ATM with his gear he can tank anything any of the others can and assuming I play the class correctly has no aggro issues whatsoever even in high DPS groups. Gear has made the difference........but at its core if you compare the Guardian to the other Plate tanks ...disregarding gear Guardian falls way way way short.2) WHen I play my Assassin on raids the tank I have the least trouble with in terms of having to watch my own aggro is ironically our Guardian. 3) When I play my Assassin in PuGs (something that I really do not do very often) I can really tell the difference between the tank classes. It takes at a min a well basically raid geared well played Guard or a average geared average played SK or Pally to be able to hold aggro effectively.While at the top end raid gear sorta equals things out..........without such gear Guardian is still way way behind the other tanks in all categories that define a tank. IMO that is not good balance.

Legion2024

12-08-2010, 09:33 PM

learn your class fact, i DON'T have a drama with agro because i play my class, i INSTRUCT my group i don't party with other tanks unless raiding and the guys i raided with are skilled and know how to control their deeps. second a sk fight yeah sure come the naggy meet me in kp and HOPE YOU HAVE ALL DAY. i recon you rage a bit to much, and sound like my 2yo becaue you are not very good at something.just because you struggle with groups does not mean we all do, not my drama you suck as a player, that is not my fault thats yours, yes i am a guard i have been a guard for a while now. wow some peopleand yes seems there are ONLY a hand full of GREAT guards left,tbh while tanking most t9 i facebook because its that boring that easy that its not funny, and you are hear complaining.so you have full masters.........?raid/pvp gear full set with the RIGHT adorns......?do you instruct your group or do you say nothing........?do you know how agro works even with group encounters.....?do you know the strats to all the mobs....?did you work out all the mobs or were you told how to tank them....?do you do more pugs then guild/friend groupswith all this said do you still hunt for gear to help you when you get beat by a mob or do you just sook.it is all in the game for you waiting to learn there is so much out therethere is some simple questions for you that might help your problemI'm not saying we don't need some love but we have some of the best skill sets if YOU KNOW HOW TO USE THEM RIGHTso you are here complaining so how about a list of your gear aa points adorns etc etc so we al lcan get the truth on YOUR toon because my toon is just finewasana yeah i get them all the time even while pvping, he seems to think sks are unbeatable well think he needs to come to naggy to find out the facts,and second SOE does not script mob in this game so you hold agro 100% of the time that would be plain stupid.just wowand Draylore yeah there are some cruddy guards/sk's/pallys/zerks out there you cant help that at all ... <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Landiin

12-09-2010, 04:10 PM

<cite>Legion2024 wrote:</cite><blockquote>learn your class fact, i DON'T have a drama with agro because i play my class, i INSTRUCT my group i don't party with other tanks unless raiding and the guys i raided with are skilled and know how to control their deeps. second a sk fight yeah sure come the naggy meet me in kp and HOPE YOU HAVE ALL DAY. i recon you rage a bit to much, and sound like my 2yo becaue you are not very good at something.just because you struggle with groups does not mean we all do, not my drama you suck as a player, that is not my fault thats yours, yes i am a guard i have been a guard for a while now. wow some peopleand yes seems there are ONLY a hand full of GREAT guards left,tbh while tanking most t9 i facebook because its that boring that easy that its not funny, and you are hear complaining.so you have full masters.........?raid/pvp gear full set with the RIGHT adorns......?do you instruct your group or do you say nothing........?do you know how agro works even with group encounters.....?do you know the strats to all the mobs....?did you work out all the mobs or were you told how to tank them....?do you do more pugs then guild/friend groupswith all this said do you still hunt for gear to help you when you get beat by a mob or do you just sook.it is all in the game for you waiting to learn there is so much out therethere is some simple questions for you that might help your problemI'm not saying we don't need some love but we have some of the best skill sets if YOU KNOW HOW TO USE THEM RIGHTso you are here complaining so how about a list of your gear aa points adorns etc etc so we al lcan get the truth on YOUR toon because my toon is just finewasana yeah i get them all the time even while pvping, he seems to think sks are unbeatable well think he needs to come to naggy to find out the facts,and second SOE does not script mob in this game so you hold agro 100% of the time that would be plain stupid.just wowand Draylore yeah there are some cruddy guards/sk's/pallys/zerks out there you cant help that at all ... <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" /></blockquote>SK will take a guard any day if they are even close to being geared the same unless the SK is being played by a complete idiot. Just from that statement alone tells you you don't know jack about the guard class.And quit hiding, post your char name.

Bocon

12-09-2010, 04:30 PM

<cite>Legion2024 wrote:</cite><blockquote>learn your class fact, i DON'T have a drama with agro because i play my class, i INSTRUCT my group i don't party with other tanks unless raiding and the guys i raided with are skilled and know how to control their deeps. second a sk fight yeah sure come the naggy meet me in kp and HOPE YOU HAVE ALL DAY. i recon you rage a bit to much, and sound like my 2yo becaue you are not very good at something.just because you struggle with groups does not mean we all do, not my drama you suck as a player, that is not my fault thats yours, yes i am a guard i have been a guard for a while now. wow some peopleand yes seems there are ONLY a hand full of GREAT guards left,tbh while tanking most t9 i facebook because its that boring that easy that its not funny, and you are hear complaining.so you have full masters.........?raid/pvp gear full set with the RIGHT adorns......?do you instruct your group or do you say nothing........?do you know how agro works even with group encounters.....?do you know the strats to all the mobs....?did you work out all the mobs or were you told how to tank them....?do you do more pugs then guild/friend groupswith all this said do you still hunt for gear to help you when you get beat by a mob or do you just sook.it is all in the game for you waiting to learn there is so much out therethere is some simple questions for you that might help your problemI'm not saying we don't need some love but we have some of the best skill sets if YOU KNOW HOW TO USE THEM RIGHTso you are here complaining so how about a list of your gear aa points adorns etc etc so we al lcan get the truth on YOUR toon because my toon is just finewasana yeah i get them all the time even while pvping, he seems to think sks are unbeatable well think he needs to come to naggy to find out the facts,and second SOE does not script mob in this game so you hold agro 100% of the time that would be plain stupid.just wowand Draylore yeah there are some cruddy guards/sk's/pallys/zerks out there you cant help that at all ... <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" /></blockquote>You are missing the point. Yes, if you have raid gear, a good group and a full set of masters you can do the hard zones wtih a guard. I am saying when you dont have the best gear or the best group the other tanks have better tools for handling those hard zones and can still do them. No one even mentioned anything about aggro problems.You are the one raging. Don't come to the forums and spout off about how good you are and how horrible everyone else is. Noone wants to hear it and noone cares. Usually the people who brag are the worst players.I have never said I had the best gear. In fact I said I was lacking some gear. The only thing I said is that our stoneskins don't work with large encounters. That is the point of the thread. You add nothing to the thread. You just rolled in here and said I am the greatest ever.If you pvp or do BGs with a guard then you would know against other tank classes we get owned. I didn't realize how bad it was until I started doing BGs. So, I don't use my guard for BGs anymore. You are clearly clueless on this and makes everyone question if you know anything at all. You probably run around in raid gear with a great healer and dps and think you are the greatest thing ever.Go somewhere else and talk how great you are because I know that noone else here cares.

RafaelSmith

12-09-2010, 05:18 PM

I would take a really enourmous gear and skill advantage for a Guard to have any hope in a fight against a SK. Basically the SK would have to be in cloth and AFK. =P Any SK I know would wipe the floor against any Guard no matter how good they may think they are.Take a Guard and SK on equal footing gearwise and skillwise and there would be no contest.Not that any of that matters because EQ2 should not be balanced around 1-on-1 PvP performance. I could care less if SKs can run around one-shotting everyone in PvP ...just as long as in PvE things are fair and balanced. Currently they are close but still alot of room for improvements..........mostly with regards to Guardian 1h/shield DPS and non MT/OT viability.Stoneskins are fine. Defensively we are fine.

Silzin

12-09-2010, 06:25 PM

From what i have seen on my monk playing with out raid gear for a long time and know being in a raid guild and geared with t1 and t2 armor, the heroic game really changes for monks when we out gear the content. I am thinking that Bocon 's point is that it is the same way on Guard 's. It is almost required to over gear content for Guard's and brawlers in order to be able to be as effective as a knite of zerker of equal skill. the balance for brawlers change when we get raid geared, but that shouldn't be a requirement to be able to play any class well.

Legion2024

12-09-2010, 09:11 PM

just one word cruddy players, where do you fit in........?do you put the time in to your toon, do you know when to use your stone skins....?what are your groups like....? cruddy group=cruddy zone or do you expect only the guard to carry a hole group though the zone with your stone skins, lol laughable, you are complaining about a class and you say you don't have good gear, what the hell do you expect when you try zones.......? a free dam ride.here play a while longer get some gear do the battle grounds, advance your aa, it takes work to build a toon and tbh its the same with every class... work work workyeah so what im a good guard but im no broncas, but i all so put the time in and all so remember you can instruct your group on when to cast their spells and what not, or once again do you sit there not knowing what the other classes skill sets are, btw our stone skins work well when you have a group that works together, in all situations pvp zones and raiding, just because you have not worked it out does not mean our stone skins are broken and need more... that is laughable

Soul_Dreamer

12-09-2010, 10:16 PM

<cite>Legion2024 wrote:</cite><blockquote>just one word cruddy players, where do you fit in........?do you put the time in to your toon, do you know when to use your stone skins....?what are your groups like....? cruddy group=cruddy zone or do you expect only the guard to carry a hole group though the zone with your stone skins, lol laughable, you are complaining about a class and you say you don't have good gear, what the hell do you expect when you try zones.......? a free dam ride.here play a while longer get some gear do the battle grounds, advance your aa, it takes work to build a toon and tbh its the same with every class... work work workyeah so what im a good guard but im no broncas, but i all so put the time in and all so remember you can instruct your group on when to cast their spells and what not, or once again do you sit there not knowing what the other classes skill sets are, btw our stone skins work well when you have a group that works together, in all situations pvp zones and raiding, just because you have not worked it out does not mean our stone skins are broken and need more... that is laughable</blockquote>I notice you're still not saying who you are.I'm MT/Raid leader/Guild leader of a relatively successful raid guild on my server (Top 4/5 on the server) and have been for over 5 years. In Heroic content I have trouble holding the DPS classes from my guild without at least a Dirge or Coercer, my personal DPS is also in the toilet compared to our SK/Zerker in these heroic instances, seriously, they just destroy zones. I'm not saying I CAN'T do these instances or it's hard, but it takes a lot more work for me than it does the other plate tanks with equal gear. I can play my brothers SK (our OT) and do things I can't or at least no where near as easily on my Guardian. Claiming you can do anything the other plate tanks can and better is just laughable I'm afraid. You have no clue what you are on about and aren't even willing to say who you are. In every single area of play with the exception of a couple of HM raid encounters ANY group/raid will be better off with a SK/Zerk/Pally tanking than they would with an equally geared Guardian. The recent changes made being a heroic Guardian easier but we are far from Balanced and need more gear to do the same things the other tanks do. Defensively the Plae fighters are the most balanced they have ever been, offensively there are very large disparities in the classes potential.Raiding things are more balanced because of the huge amount of emphasis placed on the MT and the MT group for agro for any tank class, there is so much help for agro any MT can hold a raid. Even raiding though there is a pretty large DPS gap between the tank, this gap goes sky high when you get any sort of AOE content or room pulling trash.

Legion2024

12-09-2010, 11:21 PM

who asked who i am..?and im sorry you find it hard.and btw if you put the hole thing on to the tanks hands then you fail straight off ITS A GROUP EFFORT, thats what makes a good tank a good group. FACT ohh and having a basic understanding of the classes/mobs that you have a problem with. that goes a long way. learning a mob what it hits with what type of damage, how fast it hits, and what you should be hitting it with and what every other class in your group what they bring to the tablewhen i first started tanking the only class i had a problem with was warlocks, but as a tank i learn and adept and overcome ITS OUR ROLL AS A TANK,and if you wanted to know who my pvp toon is just ask, its that simple, i am now a pvp tank, for pvp groups pvp raids warfields and some battlegrounds. i insta zone for guildys that want select gear from those zone.but i guess because a few are having problems that they will change the hole class to make it easy for those that can not put the time and effort in to their toon. path of lest resistance.

Soul_Dreamer

12-10-2010, 07:39 AM

Where did I even say I found it hard, Jesus stay off forums your 5 year old reading age obviously doesn't equip you well enough to join in the conversations. The whole thing IS on the tank, I've never told any group I've been in to slow down or do things differently for my benefit, you're saying you do? Do you honestly think any other plate tanks have to, or that DPS don't mind you doing that. The game isn't about managing hate anymore, DPS expect the tank to hold hate while they basically do what they like, a tank that fails at this is seen to be failing.Guardian - Brigand - Warlock - Troub - Illy - InquisitorThe Guardian in that group will more than likely have agro issues if the group are of equal gear to him, replace the Guardian with any other Plate tank and they won't, or at least the issues will be very minimal, Guardians are still the plate tank that need the most help for their hate especially if they have to throw on a shield.You're either deliberately being obtuse or you actually believe the falacy that Guardians are equal to the other tanks in all areas as you claim.A Guardian won't out DPS any other plate tank of equal gear and skill, a Guardian has less Hate than every other plate tank of equal gear and skill. Claiming otherwise is just showing how little you know.Btw... still no idea who you are, you've said your play style, not WHO YOU ARE.

Bocon

12-10-2010, 12:06 PM

Costa

12-10-2010, 12:59 PM

It's probably fair to say that he experiences a different side to guardian than maybe your self but some of his claims about guard standing toe to toe against any crusader in pvp is a little on the fantasy side if equally geared <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Direct heals will always be a stronger defensive mechanism to small sustained damage than limited number of hits from a stone skin.Are guard stone skins broke? Not at all they do what they say on the tin and prevent x number of hits. They are the best form of defence when facing very large spike damage but useless when taking multiple small hits for the same amount of damage.Like we have been told in our own threads when asking for our heals to be returned to some form of usefullnes, you have to be carefull in what you request in regards to stoneskins and damage increase as it will take the class from being a challange to play to being the next op. Personally i feel my zerk should never have been given the heals that he has and maybe given more damage reduction tools for short duration. That is probably something guardians could do with as well when dealing with large multiple encounters in heroic content, although if you get damage reduction it would need to come with a price. Like wise in asking for more dps and hate what is it you need? At the moment 3 of the 4 plate fighters can spec to get a 40% chance to ae auto attack and the 4th one gets 100% off their myth. I know pallies and SK's have about 6 blue aoe's each so is it just a case of giving guards more blue ae's to make multi mob fights easier to hate manage? Also how is the group hate transfer working on guards? You get a 15% perminent transfer off of the group (if you spec it), so although it's not as high as amends is on a single target (40%) it must be of some use when you are group moderating also?Reading through the thread i would say there are some issues still for guards in heroic content, seeing it on our raids (Guard MT's) it is not so much an issue. Where the focus needs to be directed is do you need more hate? More dps? More damage reductions? or a combination of all 3 and at what cost to the number of stoneskins would you want that to affect? I mean for an example would changing one of the stone skins to a set duration damage reduction make it a viable alternative?

Soul_Dreamer

12-10-2010, 01:09 PM

The hate siphon of 15% is single target, not the group. Just a normal Blue AOE or 2 would be nice and some Single target DPS when behind a shield, that's all Guardians need changing.Actual fixes to broken abilities would be Sentinal/Sentry Watch and our mitigation increasing abilities, the only way to fix the mitigation abilities would be to change them to damage reduction or an across the board nerf to fighter mitigation/Mit curve change.

Costa

12-10-2010, 02:06 PM

With the next expansion there will be a reduction in all fighter mitigation so maybe that will go another little step towards helping on that front. I didn't realise the transfer was single target, for some reason i thought it was group wide. Maybe a boost to that would also help on the hate front, as for the other 2 abilities, sadly i've never played guard and so don't know much on those although wasn't one of those mentioned in another thread about changes in next expansion?

Bocon

12-10-2010, 02:26 PM

<cite>Costa@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>It's probably fair to say that he experiences a different side to guardian than maybe your self but some of his claims about guard standing toe to toe against any crusader in pvp is a little on the fantasy side if equally geared <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" /> Direct heals will always be a stronger defensive mechanism to small sustained damage than limited number of hits from a stone skin.Are guard stone skins broke? Not at all they do what they say on the tin and prevent x number of hits. They are the best form of defence when facing very large spike damage but useless when taking multiple small hits for the same amount of damage.Like we have been told in our own threads when asking for our heals to be returned to some form of usefullnes, you have to be carefull in what you request in regards to stoneskins and damage increase as it will take the class from being a challange to play to being the next op. Personally i feel my zerk should never have been given the heals that he has and maybe given more damage reduction tools for short duration. That is probably something guardians could do with as well when dealing with large multiple encounters in heroic content, although if you get damage reduction it would need to come with a price. Like wise in asking for more dps and hate what is it you need? At the moment 3 of the 4 plate fighters can spec to get a 40% chance to ae auto attack and the 4th one gets 100% off their myth. I know pallies and SK's have about 6 blue aoe's each so is it just a case of giving guards more blue ae's to make multi mob fights easier to hate manage? Also how is the group hate transfer working on guards? You get a 15% perminent transfer off of the group (if you spec it), so although it's not as high as amends is on a single target (40%) it must be of some use when you are group moderating also?Reading through the thread i would say there are some issues still for guards in heroic content, seeing it on our raids (Guard MT's) it is not so much an issue. Where the focus needs to be directed is do you need more hate? More dps? More damage reductions? or a combination of all 3 and at what cost to the number of stoneskins would you want that to affect? I mean for an example would changing one of the stone skins to a set duration damage reduction make it a viable alternative?</blockquote>Like Soul_Dreamer said the hate siphon is 15% single target. We also have a group moderate now that lowers the hate of the entire group, which is very useful. Yes, I think guards need improved dps while using a shield because Tower of Stone doesn't work unless you are holding a shield. Alot of people have asked for this and we haven't gotten it so I thought I try a different approach and ask for better defensive abilties against group mobs. People have suggested dragoons but I don't really like dragoons because you can't use CA's while it is active. Plus that is a warrior AA. I am looking more to help Guards because I believe zerkers are having an easier time with large group mobs then we are. Other people are saying you need raid gear and a good healer to handle the large mobs. That doesn't sound like a viable option for all people. If people don't want to put a duration on the stoneskins that is fine but then I think we need another ability with a duration (other then guardian sphere) that lowers damage.

Yimway

12-10-2010, 02:54 PM

<cite>Soul_Dreamer wrote:</cite><blockquote>some Single target DPS when behind a shield, that's all Guardians need changing.Actual fixes to broken abilities would be Sentinal/Sentry Watch and our mitigation increasing abilities, the only way to fix the mitigation abilities would be to change them to damage reduction or an across the board nerf to fighter mitigation/Mit curve change.</blockquote>Yeap, thats exactly it.And know why in particular this is BS? Xelgad had full knowledge of and even admited that our short term mit buffs (that should be our survivability edge) are not significant due to the mitigation inflation on gear. He knew there was a plan to address this mitigation inflation 6 months away while he made the guardian changes.Now, he did, what in my opinion is the same fault every other dev that has worked on classes has done. He decided it was ok to leave a class broken for 6 months in leueu of what the overall team plans to do with expansion release mechanics.6 months in a MMO is a lifetime. He doesn't understand he's an entertainment company, and for example comcast not being able to fix my HBO for 6 months isn't setting a reasonable customer satisfaction level.Knowing what he did, he had full power to change our mit buffs to damage reduction and include the caveat that they would likely return to mitigation buffs once the overall game mitigation was fixed. He could have not left a class knowingly gimped for 6 months, but he did and has no remorse over it.Had he made this change, we'd have been basically fixed 3 months ago, and we'd be fixed still at expansion launch on the chance that the rest of the team doesn't follow thru with the mitigation change. Now, we're in a position that we're overly weak and are dependent on a fix that is very unpopular to go thru before we are whole again.SoE repeatedly, knowling makes these decisions. It's the primary reason I have no respect for most of them.<cite>Costa@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>With the next expansion there will be a reduction in all fighter mitigation so maybe that will go another little step towards helping on that front. I didn't realise the transfer was single target, for some reason i thought it was group wide. Maybe a boost to that would also help on the hate front, as for the other 2 abilities, sadly i've never played guard and so don't know much on those although wasn't one of those mentioned in another thread about changes in next expansion?</blockquote>Will be?Would that be like bard/enchanter buffs will be made raidwide in SF?Would that be like how items effects will be made to decay as you outlevel them with SF?Decisions are made in the sand at SoE, maybe there will be a mitigation change with expansion and our currently worthless class defining buffs will be relevant, or maybe enough fighters will B&M that mitigation wont be significantly impacted (or again sufficient gear will be introduced to make our buffs virtually worthless again).I wont bank on what SoE announced they intend to do, as they've repeatedly failed to deliver, particularly on mechanics that will be protested heavily by players.

Soul_Dreamer

12-10-2010, 02:57 PM

<cite>Costa@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>With the next expansion there will be a reduction in all fighter mitigation so maybe that will go another little step towards helping on that front. I didn't realise the transfer was single target, for some reason i thought it was group wide. Maybe a boost to that would also help on the hate front, as for the other 2 abilities, sadly i've never played guard and so don't know much on those although wasn't one of those mentioned in another thread about changes in next expansion?</blockquote>The problem with both Sentinal and Sentry watch is that they don't just reduce/limit damage to the group member they are used upon, they intercept 80%+ of the damage absorbed. Times you'll need to use these when raiding is when a member is low on HP and an AOE is due. Problem being the Guardian will then take his AOE and the group members AOE = Dead Guardian.So we can't use an ability in the way it was designed to do the thing it was meant to do because it will more than likely kill us. So a large chunk of Guardian defensive "Utility" is down the toilet.

Legion2024

12-10-2010, 09:26 PM

if you are not willing to try different things gear group set ups, different aa sets ups then their is your hole problem. and you can insult me as much as you want im not the one whining. add a few adorns of mending onxy ear onyx band, the sapphire ring, and soul for power, challengers sabatons and challengers greaves challengers breast for more heals + pvp crit mit adorens, + heal pots cure pots, not to mention any of the fraction gear one or 2 pieces might help you as well.all that only takes a week or 2 to get it alland yes tank on tank fights last all dam day and that list is only a hand full of stuff you can get , sure there are tanks that kill me and i kill other tanks its the nature of the game someone wins someone losses or we walk away from the fightbut to straight out say i wont try that or i wont try this , thats it where you are running in to drama. plain lazinessohh btw all that stuff works fine in insta zones as well. kinda makes the insta zones easy with all our stoneskins perrys dragoons + our own healsjust wowps sorry i also forgot about the dread cloak another 1200 to 1800 heal wack a nice adorn on that and wow all those heals

Soul_Dreamer

12-10-2010, 10:06 PM

<cite>Legion2024 wrote:</cite><blockquote>if you are not willing to try different things gear group set ups, different aa sets ups then their is your hole problem. and you can insult me as much as you want im not the one whining. add a few adorns of mending onxy ear onyx band, the sapphire ring, and soul for power, challengers sabatons and challengers greaves challengers breast for more heals + pvp crit mit adorens, + heal pots cure pots, not to mention any of the fraction gear one or 2 pieces might help you as well.all that only takes a week or 2 to get it alland yes tank on tank fights last all dam day and that list is only a hand full of stuff you can get , sure there are tanks that kill me and i kill other tanks its the nature of the game someone wins someone losses or we walk away from the fightbut to straight out say i wont try that or i wont try this , thats it where you are running in to drama. plain lazinessohh btw all that stuff works fine in insta zones as well. kinda makes the insta zones easy with all our stoneskins perrys dragoons + our own healsjust wowps sorry i also forgot about the dread cloak another 1200 to 1800 heal wack a nice adorn on that and wow all those heals</blockquote>The OP is willing to try different gear and AA setups, just you haven't offered anything up until now except to say how great you are. And now you have offered something it's all PvP Centric, I don't remember anyone mentioning PvP except you, you've come here basically saying how wonderful you are and bigging up the Guardian class in situations that have exactly zero relevance to the OP's initial gripes and the continuing conversation. High lighted in red.. WHAT HEALS? You're aware this is the Guardian forum and the only combat heal we have is our death save?I'll say it just once more so you can try and understand it one more time.The Guardian class is fine defensively in the setting they have always been designed for, MTing raids. The second you get any number of mobs on you stone skins loose their potency and other tanks abilities rise to the fore. The abilities we have to deal with these situations are enough (GS, DM, Dragoons). Other areas Guardians are behind are DPS both AOE and ST and Hate when behind a shield. If you think you can keep up in DPS and "Equal or better" the other plate tanks in this area then you are delusional.

Legion2024

12-10-2010, 10:39 PM

k leave ya all to it struggling with stoneskins, back to tanking

Soul_Dreamer

12-10-2010, 10:40 PM

<cite>Legion2024 wrote:</cite><blockquote>k leave ya all to it struggling with stoneskins, back to tanking</blockquote>seriously, [Removed for Content] are you on? It's like you read maybe 1/5th of what's posted then ignore that anyway and just type whatever comes into that little brain of yours.

Landiin

12-11-2010, 03:36 AM

And he remain anon... Only means one thing, he don't play a guard.Edit..You probably the level 80 Legion guard on The Bazaar if you do happen to play one.

Legion2024

12-11-2010, 11:14 PM

<cite>Soul_Dreamer wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Legion2024 wrote:</cite><blockquote>k leave ya all to it struggling with stoneskins, back to tanking</blockquote>seriously, [Removed for Content] are you on? It's like you read maybe 1/5th of what's posted then ignore that anyway and just type whatever comes into that little brain of yours.</blockquote>ignore what...? you think stoneskins need to be longer/more procs/ longer duration ohhhhh no, more then one mob eats my tower of stone what do i do now should i just lay down and die and take it or should i learn and adapt and overcome. what do you do..? ohh wait we know you come here and complain, make it easier for ME its to hard for ME dumb its down for me its all about me me me me. well guess what its not just about youim not the one crying stone skins are fine, ohh btw try grouping and you might not need to even use your stoneskins. just there are 5 other people that are their to help you , you do know that right..?Landiin read up all it takes is just to ask who my toon is, as for anon its been that way since i started on pvp server. ohh if you want to see some of my gear again read up, its all easy to get and makes tanking easier.k your stone skins are only one of many things you have available and should not be relyed on alone, if you can not work it out then maybe tanking with a guard is not for you.and if you find that it feels like you are working tanking get a better group because its not just about YOU its the HOLE group that makes it successful and what everyone brings to the group. but hey ill wake up and you guys wil complain that much that there will be no line that separates the tanks.i love my guard, i love tanking, its not work its fun/entertainment, if you find it to be work well then ask your self one question why is it hard for ME.so instead of saying hey stoneskins are broken and we need more how about asking for advice on how to pull a zone or a mob or gear from other tanks, that dont have a drama.and just because you dont like a aa line or a piece of gear or some other set up that works for other guards does not mean stoneskins are lacking.you know just sometimes its not game mechanics its player input, hmmm just maybe

Landiin

12-12-2010, 04:00 AM

<cite>Legion2024 wrote:</cite><blockquote>Landiin read up all it takes is just to ask who my toon is, as for anon its been that way since i started on pvp server. ohh if you want to see some of my gear again read up, its all easy to get and makes tanking easier.</blockquote>Read up I've read every thread and you never have once hinted at who you are as far as I can tell. I'll make it easy for even you to understand even though it's been ask several times including once directly from me.What is your guardians name that you play? What is your guardians name that can beat down an equally skilled and gear Crusader? What is your most awesomest guardians name? Do you understand that? I'll draw you a picture if need be.

Soul_Dreamer

12-13-2010, 07:00 AM

<cite>Legion2024 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Soul_Dreamer wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Legion2024 wrote:</cite><blockquote>k leave ya all to it struggling with stoneskins, back to tanking</blockquote>seriously, [Removed for Content] are you on? It's like you read maybe 1/5th of what's posted then ignore that anyway and just type whatever comes into that little brain of yours.</blockquote>ignore what...? you think stoneskins need to be longer/more procs/ longer duration ohhhhh no, more then one mob eats my tower of stone what do i do now should i just lay down and die and take it or should i learn and adapt and overcome. what do you do..? ohh wait we know you come here and complain, make it easier for ME its to hard for ME dumb its down for me its all about me me me me. well guess what its not just about youim not the one crying stone skins are fine, ohh btw try grouping and you might not need to even use your stoneskins. just there are 5 other people that are their to help you , you do know that right..?Landiin read up all it takes is just to ask who my toon is, as for anon its been that way since i started on pvp server. ohh if you want to see some of my gear again read up, its all easy to get and makes tanking easier.k your stone skins are only one of many things you have available and should not be relyed on alone, if you can not work it out then maybe tanking with a guard is not for you.and if you find that it feels like you are working tanking get a better group because its not just about YOU its the HOLE group that makes it successful and what everyone brings to the group. but hey ill wake up and you guys wil complain that much that there will be no line that separates the tanks.i love my guard, i love tanking, its not work its fun/entertainment, if you find it to be work well then ask your self one question why is it hard for ME.so instead of saying hey stoneskins are broken and we need more how about asking for advice on how to pull a zone or a mob or gear from other tanks, that dont have a drama.and just because you dont like a aa line or a piece of gear or some other set up that works for other guards does not mean stoneskins are lacking.you know just sometimes its not game mechanics its player input, hmmm just maybe</blockquote>I've said Guardians are fine and just need more DPS when behind a shield, I've said Guardian stone skins are fine, I told the OP to respec AA's and try different things. In every f*cking post on this thread I've been saying this and yet you still think I'm saying the opposite.... What aren't you bloody ignoring?<div><cite>Soul_Dreamer wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Legion2024 wrote:</cite><blockquote>if you are not willing to try different things gear group set ups, different aa sets ups then their is your hole problem. and you can insult me as much as you want im not the one whining. add a few adorns of mending onxy ear onyx band, the sapphire ring, and soul for power, challengers sabatons and challengers greaves challengers breast for more heals + pvp crit mit adorens, + heal pots cure pots, not to mention any of the fraction gear one or 2 pieces might help you as well.all that only takes a week or 2 to get it alland yes tank on tank fights last all dam day and that list is only a hand full of stuff you can get , sure there are tanks that kill me and i kill other tanks its the nature of the game someone wins someone losses or we walk away from the fightbut to straight out say i wont try that or i wont try this , thats it where you are running in to drama. plain lazinessohh btw all that stuff works fine in insta zones as well. kinda makes the insta zones easy with all our stoneskins perrys dragoons + our own healsjust wowps sorry i also forgot about the dread cloak another 1200 to 1800 heal wack a nice adorn on that and wow all those heals</blockquote>The OP is willing to try different gear and AA setups, just you haven't offered anything up until now except to say how great you are. And now you have offered something it's all PvP Centric, I don't remember anyone mentioning PvP except you, you've come here basically saying how wonderful you are and bigging up the Guardian class in situations that have exactly zero relevance to the OP's initial gripes and the continuing conversation. High lighted in red.. WHAT HEALS? You're aware this is the Guardian forum and the only combat heal we have is our death save?I'll say it just once more so you can try and understand it one more time.The Guardian class is fine defensively in the setting they have always been designed for, MTing raids. The second you get any number of mobs on you stone skins loose their potency and other tanks abilities rise to the fore. The abilities we have to deal with these situations are enough (GS, DM, Dragoons). Other areas Guardians are behind are DPS both AOE and ST and Hate when behind a shield. If you think you can keep up in DPS and "Equal or better" the other plate tanks in this area then you are delusional. </blockquote></div>As I said, read whats being posted rather than just typing what comes into you head!

spudsmckenzie2

12-13-2010, 07:18 AM

I play a guardian on nagafen and tank alot of the hard mode encounters. if i had a wish list to ask from sony i would say we need more aggro control when in defensive using sword and board. it gets to a point when the raid is cranking out high dps and other fighters are in raid that holding aggro and using tos, last man standing, stone skins gets cluttered up. see your watching for the raid mob to cast certain spells so u can counter them with a stone skin while holding aggro at same time......it shouldnt be as busy as it is, just my 2 cents. the way i would attempt to solve this issue if i were soe in the next x pac is a GUARDIAN ONLY AA called enhance reversal that would speed up reversal to a 5-10 second interval, something like that. its funny that we have to beg for silly stuff like this when they give beserkers stuff like 50% damage reduction 50% of the time and shadowknights 3 death saves (just examples) i just lol. i dont think these developers have a clue... -weaklings

Bocon

12-13-2010, 12:07 PM

Thanks to everyone who has posted helpful information. I have got a couple of things to try with large encounters. I still think guardians need a little more of a boost and I think most people agree. I guess that is up to Sony, hopefully something will happen in the next expansion.

MurFalad

12-15-2010, 06:35 AM

Well its clear that over the years every class has a ridiculous number of immunity buttons on ever decreasing cooldowns.The problem I have with the guardian ones is that the development of the game has been to go from single challenging mobs to multiple moderately challenging mobs.Its also gone from slow hits to ever faster hitting mobs, both of those changes make limited proc number abilities in PVE ever weaker compared to fixed length abilities.Then there is PVP, where it is a great example of how the game has evolved with haste and massive numbers of feedback damage procs making our stoneshield abilities often utterly useless (sometimes for certain geared players it takes longer to cast the ability then the ability saves damage for).As for our DPS, its lower then the other tanks by a long way, personally I think the other tanks need a good chunk of their DPS turned into threat (I think that is what the defensive stance should do maybe to the tune of 30-50%, offensive stance should convert our mitigation/avoidance into more DPS), but buffing ours up to be equal is the other way to balance things.