Are we avatars now?

[Aceshot]

<p>I was thinking about the new epic weapon quest spell thingy and looking back at the lore.</p><p>According to the lore, the Hand of Serenity is made using the energy from the Plane of Serenity , before Quellious took it to help protect herself and it was made with her blessing.</p><p>My monk has now internalized that power, and I was thinking. He now has the power of the Serenity now, so is it possible he is now an avatar? When you think how we are taking down Roheen Theer, the Godslayer, and Master Yael, to me, it makes sense that the gods helped out a bit, and all the epic weapons are powerful planar weapons aswell.</p><p>What does everyone else think about it?</p>

[Cusashorn]

<p>Not really. If we were avatars, we would take on the appearance of our diety. Rhoen Theer's specific weakness are us mortals. If we were avatars imbued with deitistic powers, he'd be able to kill us pretty easily.</p>

[Aceshot]

<p>Well, for RP purpose, I will still say that >.> It makes more fun!</p>

[betatester7]

<p><cite>Aceshot@Unrest wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Well, for RP purpose, I will still say that >.> It makes more fun!</p></blockquote><p>+1</p>

[Cusashorn]

<p>Actually now that I think more of it, not every mythical weapon was created by a diety... in fact I think the majority of them weren't. It's just more power to us as mortals.</p>

[Zabjade]

<p><span style="color: #00cc00;">I have not finished that questline to depower my Mythical.  In fact if I was an Evil Dev I would have in velious a monster that can only be killed by a mythical and not the internalized power version of it ;p </span></p>

[Aceshot]

<p>You should never become a dev.</p><p>So who made which weapon. Truth of Marr, Hand of Serentity, Vazzelee the Mad, aren't they made by gods?</p>

[Xalmat]

<p>Vazaelle the Mad wasnt just made by a god. It is the physical remains of Vazaelle herself, the demigoddess of madness.</p><p>Several of the weapons were indeed not made by gods. The Impact of the Sacrosanct, Elemental Dominance, Dragon's Temper, for example.</p>

[Aceshot]

<p>Even so, Elemental Dominance is a powerful elemental weapon, and the Impact is holy so something blessed it <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p>Even so, I am still looking into the idea of it. I got reading and thinking, maybe the gods had more foresight that we first thought. The hand of serenity was used by an Avatar, and so was Soulfire, so maybe we are all avatars now, attemtping to fight the avatar of destruction, who has the soul fire blades essense.</p><p>This whole x-pac has been about draining and giving away powers if you thinlk about it.</p>

[Meirril]

<p><cite>Aceshot@Unrest wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Well, for RP purpose, I will still say that >.> It makes more fun!</p></blockquote><p>For RP purposes you can claim to be an umpaloompa, or a frostfell elf. We've got stricter standards for Lore...</p>

[Meirril]

<p>I've been thinking about the origional question a bit more. Avatars are the choosen respresenatives of a diety. We arn't the chosen one. The diety never approached us. It wasn't even the high priests of the diety. If you want to think about it, we're opportunists who have stolen the enchantments from a major artifact in our possession. We're thieves of that mystical power.</p><p>Is it ours for the taking? Honestly, that is debatable. Possession being 9/10th I'd say we're well withing our rights, but honestly we're just the test subjects that developed a process for Kerafyrm. Dupes if you will. I'm sure that there are beings that are most displeased with our decisions. Each of the mythicals has many people that would of wished to wield that power.</p><p>The even more intersting question is what happens when we die? Will future adventurers summon our spirits back from the Etheneer so they can strip us of our mythical powers? Will we continue to increase in power due to our absorption of these awesome powers? Who knows?</p>

[Aceshot]

<p>Ahh...I don't want to be defiled >.></p><p>But now the propehci makes a bit more sense. Aetrok is the essense of destruction, but what is Exonus?</p><p>Also, do you have any translations for those names and here is something to think about.</p><p>We are fighting avatars at the moment. Yael is the avatar of the Underfoot it seems (maybe self apointed) and Theer is the avatar of the Nameless. El'Arad is the avatar of theer and we have been fighting avatars from 70-80. Maybe we will fight the avatar of Eci, either in IK (Still waiting on Frostfell for next update to it) or another such being. Maybe the avatar of Prexis?</p>

[kelvmor]

<p>No.</p><p>And even for RP purposes, no. Not an Avatar of War, Fear, Hate, Tranquility, nothin'. Not even Avatar of Crap. We're just some insanely powerful mortals that could probably survive if both a-bombs that hit Hiroshima and Nagasaki were dropped on us at once.</p><p>Also, E'ci is really only concerned with her own realm in the Plane of Water. She rarely, if ever, pays attention to anything outside of her realm.</p>

[DrkVsr]

<p><span style="font-size: medium; color: #993300; font-family: comic sans ms,sans-serif;">Mah Pally is hoping we will get to fight Prexus' avatar soon as that means Prexus would be returning <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></span></p>

[Garnaf]

<p><cite>Cusashorn wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Not really. If we were avatars, <strong><span style="text-decoration: underline;">we would take on the appearance of our diety</span></strong>. Rhoen Theer's specific weakness are us mortals. If we were avatars imbued with deitistic powers, he'd be able to kill us pretty easily.</p></blockquote><p>The Bolded and Underlined is not strictly true.  Remember Askr the Lost, Avatar of Storms?  He looks NOTHING like Karana, and yet he's still considered to be an Avatar after a sort.  Avatars seem to fall into 2 catagories, one empowered mortal (Wu, Askr, etc) or a construct of divine power (like the killable avatars).</p><p>While I see no reason why the first is strictly forbidden for some classes to be, the latter is obviously outright impossible.</p><p>Now of course all this still avoids the answer to the first question asked in the thread, which is still a flat "no!" but for a very simple answer.  Roehn Theer has the power the <span style="text-decoration: underline;">annihilate divine power instantly</span>.  No resistance chance, no saving throw, just <span style="text-decoration: underline;">instant unreversable death of concept and total censure of power.</span>  Being an avatar of ANY kind makes us vulnerable to that power, you wouldn't be able to so much as be in the same plane of existance as Theer (there's a VERY good reason the Avatars were a no show this expansion) without going BOOM, let alone fighting him.</p><p>Also:</p><p><cite>Aceshot@Unrest wrote:</cite></p><blockquote>Aetrok is the essense of destruction, but what is Exonus?</blockquote><p>Enoxus is censure and order.  The ability to shut down something based an official capacity.  Roehn Theer can censure a god based on his status as Avatar of Balance.  He backs up this censure with Aeteok, destroying the god utterly and preventing the proper magical flow for the god to reform in any capacity.</p><p>His powers as Avatar of Balance gave birth to his ability as the Godslayer, which extends to anything with an inherantly divine nature (as avatars have)</p>

[Cusashorn]

<p>^ Just remember that the avatars we fought were empowered mortals, and they all took the form of the god they were the avatar of.</p>

[Zabjade]

<p><cite>Aceshot@Unrest wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>You should never become a dev.</p><p>So who made which weapon. Truth of Marr, Hand of Serentity, Vazzelee the Mad, aren't they made by gods?</p></blockquote><p><span style="color: #00cc00;">Gee dash my jopes to become gainfully employed <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> </span></p><p><span style="color: #00cc00;">I mostly kid but I could see it happen. </span></p>

[Garnaf]

<p><cite>Cusashorn wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>^ Just remember that the avatars we fought were empowered mortals, and they all took the form of the god they were the avatar of.</p></blockquote><p>Not all of them are expressly so.  Karana's Avatar of Storms looks nothing like the canon lore Avatar (Askr), Quellious' former Avatar of Tranquility IS fought, but isn't expressly an avatar anymore (Wu).</p><p>The Avatars bear more resemblance to their Divine Planar Manifestations than to a mortal being empowered by divine essence.  The only one for which this isn't true is Valor (Mithaniel Marr expressly looks DIFFERENT from Valor).</p><p>I maintain that there are 2 "Avatar" type beings.  Empowered Mortals (Askr and Wu.  Who in the canon backstory didn't change appearances with their investiture of divine might, though Wu did become younger, he did NOT suddenly start looking like the child goddess), and Planar Manifestations (Justice, Fear, Health, the gods whose appearance is just too different from the standard mortals to be an empowered mortal)</p><p>To me its the only way this descrepancy can exist.  Askr the Lost = Avatar of Storms  Avatar of Storms =/= Askr the Lost (Seriously, do his quests, he says he's the avatar, and then you SUMMON the avatar in his 5th quest.  Wait wha?)</p><p>It also makes sense from the standpoint that even in EQ1 the "Gods" were merely Avatars of the Plane, what we EXPECTED to see, and the basic divine nature of the gods is somehow utterly alien to our ability to see it.  We see their concept as best reflected through our limited mortal lens.  I could see investment with divine might somehow conveying some limited changes (Valor and War being obvious) but what the hell do you empower to get Fear's unique look?  There's no mortal that can manifest in the same way as the Faceless, he's almost more golem than anything.</p><p>Just too alien to me for some of them is all.  (And the Avatar of Undeath is, well, expressly NOT an Avatar, it's the Undying One herself)</p>

[Aceshot]

<p>So the Marr we fight in SoL isn't Marr? It is his avatar of his plane?</p><p>I WANT MORE SOL STUFF!</p>

[Cusashorn]

<p>No, that IS him. The Avatar of Valor that used to show up in the Commonlands was an empowered mortal given divine powers.</p>

[Meirril]

<p><cite>Dranikos@Butcherblock wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Cusashorn wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>^ Just remember that the avatars we fought were empowered mortals, and they all took the form of the god they were the avatar of.</p></blockquote><p>Not all of them are expressly so.  Karana's Avatar of Storms looks nothing like the canon lore Avatar (Askr), Quellious' former Avatar of Tranquility IS fought, but isn't expressly an avatar anymore (Wu).</p><p>The Avatars bear more resemblance to their Divine Planar Manifestations than to a mortal being empowered by divine essence.  The only one for which this isn't true is Valor (Mithaniel Marr expressly looks DIFFERENT from Valor).</p><p>I maintain that there are 2 "Avatar" type beings.  Empowered Mortals (Askr and Wu.  Who in the canon backstory didn't change appearances with their investiture of divine might, though Wu did become younger, he did NOT suddenly start looking like the child goddess), and Planar Manifestations (Justice, Fear, Health, the gods whose appearance is just too different from the standard mortals to be an empowered mortal)</p><p>To me its the only way this descrepancy can exist.  Askr the Lost = Avatar of Storms  Avatar of Storms =/= Askr the Lost (Seriously, do his quests, he says he's the avatar, and then you SUMMON the avatar in his 5th quest.  Wait wha?)</p><p>It also makes sense from the standpoint that even in EQ1 the "Gods" were merely Avatars of the Plane, what we EXPECTED to see, and the basic divine nature of the gods is somehow utterly alien to our ability to see it.  We see their concept as best reflected through our limited mortal lens.  I could see investment with divine might somehow conveying some limited changes (Valor and War being obvious) but what the hell do you empower to get Fear's unique look?  There's no mortal that can manifest in the same way as the Faceless, he's almost more golem than anything.</p><p>Just too alien to me for some of them is all.  (And the Avatar of Undeath is, well, expressly NOT an Avatar, it's the Undying One herself)</p></blockquote><p>Technical point here: Askr and Wu were demi-gods, not avatars. Avatars are direct manifsations of the diety, demi-gods are mortals emporewered by a diety, usually to represent a specific aspect of that diety's influence.</p>

[Meirril]

<p><cite>Cusashorn wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>^ Just remember that the avatars we fought were empowered mortals, and they all took the form of the god they were the avatar of.</p></blockquote><p>Ok, what gives you the impression that the Avatars that use to appear on norrath are empowered mortals vs a norrathian manifestation of the dieties power being restored? The lore explination for avatars that I remember was that they were created by enough sacrifices on the altars and worship to manifest them. Of course non-believers would come along and dispurse the avatar eventually but...I don't remember anything about mortal agencies being involved in their creation.</p>

[Cusashorn]

<p>I remember back when the dieties first came back of a mention somewhere in the game that they were just mortals blessed with divine powers, and not physical manifestations of the gods in our plane. I think some of the diety lines hint towards this as well. I know Solusek Ro at the end of his line says he could have returned whenever he wanted, but he wanted to use Rath'Aman or whatever his name is to gather more followers and get rid of a few trouble makers for him too.</p><p>Besides, why would a god risk having to go through the centuries it took for most of them to recover all over again if they showed up and let mortals kill them again? They must have known that mortals would attempt to attack them again and took the necissary measures so that they didn't lose any power from it in the off chance that they actually lost.</p>

[Rainmare]

<p>I think the Avatars are planar manifestations on norrath...which is why they can look however the deity wants them to look. like Valor not looking like mithaniel himself. the difference though between them sending his manifestation to norrath and us beating them in their own planes is they can easily recover from the losses on norrath. the norrathian manifestation is more a projection, less actually the diety. on thier own plane..that construct may only be a fraction of thier power, but it's still very much them.</p><p>I would call the manifestations like puppets, witht he god being the puppeteer. destroying the puppet means the puppeteer has to put effort into making a new one....but it certainly doesn't harm them...where as going into thier plane is like getting into the puppetters house and beating them up.</p>

[Stubbswick]

<p>If you read through the Tome of Destiny, it gives more insight into what the avatars are and how they came to be.</p><p><a href="http://eq2.wikia.com/wiki/Tome_of_Destiny" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">http://eq2.wikia.com/wiki/Tome_of_Destiny</a></p><p>From the second chapter:</p><p><em>“You will be my presence in this land, disciple. You will preserve the ways of Tranquility and teach my principles as the world drifts toward despair. You will be my voice when I must be silent.” </em></p><p><em>He nodded. “I will do this gladly and with great honor, mistress. All the lands of Norrath and the skies above will know your teachings.” </em></p><p><em>She grew quiet a moment, her eyes looking toward the moon of Luclin as it glowed brightly above them. Her brow furrowed slightly. </em></p><p><em>“There is more to tell, and time is short. Walk with me, Avatar of Tranquility, and hear my words.” </em></p><p>There's quite a few mentions of avatars in there - I believe the Avatar of Storms and Avatar of War - it's been a while since I read through the whole thing.  The avatars were mortal disciples, who were chosen directly by the gods to act on their behalf.  And somehow being Avatars gives them some of the powers of the gods themselves.</p><p>I guess to tie it all back in to the original question... I don't think we're avatars now.  Even if we absorbed some of the powers of the gods.  To be an Avatar, you must be chosen by one of the gods.  It's not something you can simply take by force.</p>

[Xalmat]

<p><cite>Dranikos@Butcherblock wrote:</cite></p><blockquote>The Avatars bear more resemblance to their Divine Planar Manifestations than to a mortal being empowered by divine essence.  The only one for which this isn't true is Valor (Mithaniel Marr expressly looks DIFFERENT from Valor).</blockquote><p>It was explained by a dev that in the mortal plane, the gods can make themselves manifest in whatever way they want. But in the Planes, the gods show their true, unaltered forms. It just so happens that the avatars of the gods look similar to their true form.</p><p>For reference, Anashti Sul is different because it's not her Avatar that manifested on Norrath, but Anashti Sul herself.</p>