Paladin Heals and Stonewill [Archive] - EQ2 Forum Archive @ EQ2Wire

Boli32

11-09-2010, 07:11 AM

Demonstration of FaithPower: 188Casting : 1.38sRecast: 13.2sDuration: 24sWards target against 4594 points of all damageThis is with Potency 77% and Ability Mod of 1,821; not enhanced with AA.Stonewill IIIOn any combat or Spell Attack this may cast Stonewill on Caster. Triggers about 1.4 times per minuteWhen Damaged in Combat This spell has has a 7% chance to cast Stonewill on CasterWards Caster against 2000 points of all damage.Two guesses which is my primary source of healing?.. yep you guessed it: Stonewill; in my "tank gear" or at least my defensive gear I have at this point 3 SW3 items and 1 SW2 Item. Tank items are awash with the Stonewill proc... the fighter charm from Master Yael instead of having some cool and interesting proc/effect on ... gives... Stonewill IIIIn raids where you are hit but not regually I can expect this ward to be up on me all the time even just a single item with the two separate wasy to proc it I can be expected to be warded for 2x2000 damage with ease in one min; generally more.In short... one SINGLE PROC wards me for almost the same amount as one of what should be our defining defensive spell... except for this item doesn't require casting (which can be interupted) and doesn't interupt the flow of our personal DPS (hate) Yes I understand that I could cast the ward 3 times in the same duration, but with interupts/stuns and sother fun things happening in raids trying to cast this ward whilst tanking is a joke as its near imposible to do so.I'm not saying Stonewill should be nerfed... this is just one point of many which shows how far our healing power has gone from useful to not even worth casting beyond incoming and now is outclassed by the items we choose to wear.We can barely cast our ward whlist tanking due to stuns/interupts etc and its gone within a single hit thast was BEFORE the heal nerf (and yes it was a sigificant nerf) and now items heal for more and are MUCH easier to use.Can we PLEASE have some redname feedback about what you are doing with the paladin class?

Camnus

11-09-2010, 11:22 AM

Think thats the same for all of us Boli.Even worse when fully defensive and pot is down the tubes.

Landiin

11-09-2010, 11:53 AM

It shouldn't be more, because... Your a cleric/fight mix, not a sham/fighter mix. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" /> Just saying... But good luck getting a response Boil.

Boli32

11-09-2010, 12:46 PM

If they don't want fighters being able to heal why then is it given away so freely on items?I woudl rather *all* of our heals with the exception of lay on hands to be reworked into "heal like effects" and smaller heal amounts but with scaling built into them so they are effective in raids as well as soloadding say stoneskins, damage reduction, mitigation increase, health increases, ability which increases the healing power of heals cast on the paladin, ability to protect the group from AoEs, short term immunity to ripostes/strikethroughs/interuptsThe list goes on... if you don't want fighters to heal then why do we even HAVE heals and why are items such as Stonewill so abundant. in fact the more mobs I have on me currently the harder I am to kill thanks to SW procs.You have trivilised the healing power of a paladin as a "but you dont have x y and z because you have heals... andf then make the heals completly redundant.

Landiin

11-09-2010, 07:03 PM

I was mainly just making a play on the classes your class was derived from, wasn't really being serious. Now that you bring it up, warding is the absorption of inc damage, it really isn't healing the damage taken and it is the realm of the showman. Being you are a Paladin (cleric/warrior mix) you should have heals but no wards. Now should you get a reduced stone skin from your warrior side, yea i think you should being you get some healing from the cleric side. But then you get wards so there is your's defunct stone skin.Honestly I think they could bump you guys healing up a tad and your classes would be perfect. But then I don't play one to the level most of you do so I just have a perceived idea of the class from watching some of you play the class. Just like you have a perceived idea how other tank classes work.

Camnus

11-09-2010, 07:10 PM

Couldnt finish my earlier post, had to head to work. But anyways the other night doing kenda/pendis hard mode with all points into our wards and in a 16 or so minute fight i took the average of what our self ward actually did. Casting the ward every time it was up, whether i needed it or not, and it averaged a whopping 2322. Yeah thats a defensive feature....Stonewill is pretty much better than all our heals combined.

rabid.pooh

11-09-2010, 09:33 PM

Stonewill is the bomb, in the MT group it's usually 4th to 6th place on all my incoming heals depending on the fight and how many items I have on. So just for a point of perspective here, I have two full time healers healing the bejesus out of me, and it's beating most of their secondary heals.It's a ward and gets resolved first on incoming damage, so it's going to be up there. However it's random you can't bank on it, you can't say cast it before a huge nasty AOE is about to hit you like you can Demonstration of Faith. You can however throw a bunch of Stonewill pieces on and pull a bunch of mobs and solo the library, your DPS just sucks. Oh wait I can do with that Pally no problem without the SW pieces on, well thats more of a guardian strat I guess.

Prestissimo

11-10-2010, 03:04 AM

Paladins simply want their heals to be worth casting, not replace the healer. As it currently stands, their heals at level 90 even with the epic weapon proc up barely makes a half of a mostly if not full apprentice level spells 6 level lower healer in treasured gear with less than 50 aas. Raising all your mitigations by a mere 100 will almost assuredly net in a better survivability result than raising your healing output by even 10% potency. Even cycle stunning a heroic mob that doesn't get stunned easily results in far better survivability than casting paladin heals.I simply want my heals to do something other than 50%-75% of the time hurting my performance.

rabid.pooh

11-10-2010, 07:24 AM

<cite>ReverendPaqo wrote:</cite><blockquote>Paladins simply want their heals to be worth casting, not replace the healer. As it currently stands, their heals at level 90 even with the epic weapon proc up barely makes a half of a mostly if not full apprentice level spells 6 level lower healer in treasured gear with less than 50 aas. Raising all your mitigations by a mere 100 will almost assuredly net in a better survivability result than raising your healing output by even 10% potency. Even cycle stunning a heroic mob that doesn't get stunned easily results in far better survivability than casting paladin heals.I simply want my heals to do something other than 50%-75% of the time hurting my performance.</blockquote>I'm sorry I'm confused here, why are you comparing yourself to a healer in treasured gear? I thought we were talking tanks and stonewill items. If you want to compare yourself to healer go for it I guess, and then compare yourself to wizard because you have crappy nukes compared to them too, and I'm pretty sure your CA's are totally lacking compared to an assassin. Or I know how about comparing yourself to something thats comparable, like say other tanks?I know your stuck in a my life sucks type thing here, but I think the 10% potency is going to help more than 100 mitigation, your welcome to do the math tho, please show your work. However I'll take a cursory glance at it.If we're looking at one hit say a 20k hit from an epic mob, with 100 extra mitigation which I think would add about .2% mitigation would come out at 40 extra HP's mitigated. Demonstration of faith with the stats Boli32 posted bolstered by an extra 10% potency would give an additional 459 HPs meaning that after 11 hits of 20k the damage mitigated would catch up to the heal. So I guess it comes down to what comes first the recast on demonstration of faith or the 11 hits, of course you still have other heals you can cast here too with their increased stats. If we're talking heroic mobs that number mitigated gets a lot smaller and the number of hits required increases. Generally tho tanks want more mitigation, but if it was my pally I would choose the 10% potency.Not getting hit by a mob is always going to be better than a heal, so why you wouldn't you stun a mob (more so because most stuns have a damage component as well).

Soul_Dreamer

11-10-2010, 11:42 AM

<cite>Boli32 wrote:</cite><blockquote> stoneskins, damage reduction, mitigation increase, health increases, ability which increases the healing power of heals cast on the paladin, ability to protect the group from AoEs, short term immunity to ripostes/strikethroughs/interuptsThe list goes on... if you don't want fighters to heal then why do we even HAVE heals and why are items such as Stonewill so abundant. in fact the more mobs I have on me currently the harder I am to kill thanks to SW procs.</blockquote>Just LOL, want anything else, after you finished wanting the majority of the Warriors defensive skills, how about you ask for the DPS of an assassin at the same time.

Boli32

11-10-2010, 12:11 PM

The problem(s) with our ward is its<ul><li>gone in 1 hit, even in herioc zones - pre nerf it lasted a touch longer but this has always been a problem. If it was a reduced ward but gave a defensive buff for its entire duration it woudl be worth casting as..</li><li>its cast speed is appauling when taken into account the fact we are TANKING mobs. You have to not only deal with being hit (intrupts), status effects on the tank (stifles/dazes/stuns) but also every AoE it seems has an interupt or KB portion meaning attempting to cast it often takes 2 or 3 attempts</li></ul>Which bring me back up to the stonewill items... the only way DoF wins out over SW items is the ability to pre-cast it... once combat has ben initiated you can expect even a single SW item to outheal what is meant to be our primary defensive buff. This is made even more apparant on raids and in heriocs zones pulling large amounts of mobs.I have never wanted to be compared to a "healer" or anything; we are a tank which uses heals in our defensive abilities... the fact those defensive abilitys are now outstripepd by Stonewill Items which *any* tank can obtain pretty much nulifies paladins defensive abilities.

Boli32

11-10-2010, 12:20 PM

<cite>Soul_Dreamer wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Boli32 wrote:</cite><blockquote> stoneskins, damage reduction, mitigation increase, health increases, ability which increases the healing power of heals cast on the paladin, ability to protect the group from AoEs, short term immunity to ripostes/strikethroughs/interuptsThe list goes on... if you don't want fighters to heal then why do we even HAVE heals and why are items such as Stonewill so abundant. in fact the more mobs I have on me currently the harder I am to kill thanks to SW procs.</blockquote>Just LOL, want anything else, after you finished wanting the majority of the Warriors defensive skills, how about you ask for the DPS of an assassin at the same time.</blockquote>All of which were EXAMPLES of what our heals could be changed into:for example instead of "wards for 3000"It changes to "wards for 200" heals caster for 20-50 damage every 4 seconds" caster is immunte to interupts for the duration.reduce the healing power, increase the recast make them cast faster but add effects which SCALE into epic content rather than useless solo/group/raid

Wasuna

11-10-2010, 12:28 PM

Get Stonewill items yourself and now you have both.You still do x2 the DPS of a Guardian and take a hit just like they do.Just becasue you have heal spells doesn't mean they have to be effective. You take a hit like a warrior (or better). You DPS like a scout (or better) and you want to heal like a healer? Really?

Boli32

11-10-2010, 12:37 PM

You seriously do not get the point do you?I have Stonewill items, 4 of them actually and SoE keeps finding more places to put the ward proc on.I can spam my ward as much as possible on fights but it does LESS heals/min over the course of a fight significantly less and all it does is reduce my own DPS (hate) as well as cause a lot of frustration in attempting to cast it and become interupted 9/10.Oh and if a pally can take hits bettrr than a guard then the guard is a very bad player.We are a class whcih is DESIGNED around, indeed... slated to be a tank with healing abiilties which "make up the difference" between ourselves and warrior based tanking.Somethign which is mentioned time and time again whilst we search for balance you throw it back in our face that "yeah but you heal"... well this is me and the unspoken majority of pallys who are saying half our abilities are now broken/useless so no.. we do not "heal"; and stonewill items are more effective and provide more healing power than any one of our class spells.YOU have the best of both worlds now - you have your own defensive abilities, and lots of them and stonewill items which means you also gain the "healing power" of the paladin.When your entire class "niche" is completly replaced by a single item/proc it is entirely frustrating as devs have admited our heals are BROKEN but have done nothign towards fixing them.In short:Stonewill item procs >>>>> paladin heals

Wasuna

11-10-2010, 02:07 PM

I get the point all right. I actually agree that Paladins need some adjustment to your heals. The FACT still remains that Crusaders are the primary choice for MT due to the abilities available to each of those classes.If your already the best choice for MT then the only way I personally would agree (and yes I know, me agreeing means nothing at all) to have your heals uped is to take away some DPS or survivability.Fair is Fair. You can't look at heals as heals alone. You keep trying to do that and it's an irrelevant argument. You have to look at the total package when your considering how to balance a class. I don't agree how they balanced Paladins but they did try to look at the sum of all abilities and try to get it closer to the average for Paladins.

Controlor

11-10-2010, 06:28 PM

<cite>Wasuna wrote:</cite><blockquote>Get Stonewill items yourself and now you have both.You still do x2 the DPS of a Guardian and take a hit just like they do.Just becasue you have heal spells doesn't mean they have to be effective. You take a hit like a warrior (or better). You DPS like a scout (or better) and you want to heal like a healer? Really?</blockquote>First off (Red): That statement is utter bull. Select fights a crusader MAY do 2X the dmg of a guard. This is just because of LC and nothing more. However if you look at ZW parses for both paladins and guardians they are fairly comparable. Even more so now that they changed how double attack works with offhand. Vast majority of mobs (and even a lot of nameds), if a guardian is not tanking in full dps (duel weilding) they are hurting themselves. So again no Paladins as a whole zone wides do NOT parse 2X that of a guard. And no we dont dps like a scout. Only agian certain fights where LC gives big numbers do you see the "high" dps of a crusader.Second (Blue): What way are you considering the "taking a hit". Are you talking about sustained damage, if so every tank class (including brawlers) "takes a hit like they do". If you are talking about spike damage (which is where paladins heals are USED for). Than no way in hell do we take a hit like a guardian. A guardian has much higher survivability in the spike damage department than a paladin, even taking in account for the myth buff. This is because all the guardians prevention of damage scales for raid content and can take big hits better than a paladin prewarding for an aoe.Spike damage is the area we want our heals improved to scale for. For general sustained damage no tank needs to cover heals for that because the healers should easily keep you up. However for spike damage we have no way to offset it really. It was ment to be our heals, but at the moment our heals are so pitiful that it doesnt offset it at all.

rabid.pooh

11-10-2010, 07:31 PM

<cite>Boli32 wrote:</cite><blockquote>You seriously do not get the point do you?I have Stonewill items, 4 of them actually and SoE keeps finding more places to put the ward proc on.I can spam my ward as much as possible on fights but it does LESS heals/min over the course of a fight significantly less and all it does is reduce my own DPS (hate) as well as cause a lot of frustration in attempting to cast it and become interupted 9/10.Oh and if a pally can take hits bettrr than a guard then the guard is a very bad player.We are a class whcih is DESIGNED around, indeed... slated to be a tank with healing abiilties which "make up the difference" between ourselves and warrior based tanking.Somethign which is mentioned time and time again whilst we search for balance you throw it back in our face that "yeah but you heal"... well this is me and the unspoken majority of pallys who are saying half our abilities are now broken/useless so no.. we do not "heal"; and stonewill items are more effective and provide more healing power than any one of our class spells.YOU have the best of both worlds now - you have your own defensive abilities, and lots of them and stonewill items which means you also gain the "healing power" of the paladin.When your entire class "niche" is completly replaced by a single item/proc it is entirely frustrating as devs have admited our heals are BROKEN but have done nothign towards fixing them.In short:Stonewill item procs >>>>> paladin heals</blockquote>Lol, you are clearly the delusional one here, or maybe you just don't really understand the mechanics of the game here. Lets look to see who actually will take the bigger hit here. First off mitigation is a plenty in this expansion and the mitigation advantage of the warrior is very small, every tank is going past the cap of mitigation, but mitigation is contested so for the higher level mobs you still need more... BUT, mitigation is on a diminishing curve, so while the warrior can get about 1000 (2500 with temp buffs) extra mitigation this is all the top end of the diminishing returns curve. However I'm feeling generous so lets say the guard has 75% mitigation vs the epic mob and the pally has 70%.Guardian takes a 50k hit mitigates 75% of it resulting in a 12.5k hit, with the guard mythical of 5% damage reduction which is based on a proc thats up half the time, we'll give the guard 2.5% damage reduction. So the guard damage reduces the 12.5k by 2.5% resulting in the total damage of 12187.5 damage taken. Thats it, he's done theres nothing else happening.Pally takes a 50k hit mitigates 70% of it resulting in a 15k hit, pally mythical gives 10% damage reduction reducing it to 13.5k hit then a 10% heal back from the mythical resulting in 12150 damage taken. Right there the pally took less damage on the same hit, and I was incredibly generous on the mitigation spread which is more like 1% not 5%. Now with the pally he's still not done, he has a self regenerating ward for 300 - 350 and the aura of leadership for 875 ish, both which may be up or not be up. Now kick in all the healing that the pally can do.More so the guards physical mitigation advantage is completely lost when we're talking all other types of damage, that advantage then goes to the crusader as they can have an additional 2k of elemental, nox and arcane mitigation. So lets mitigate a non physical hit shall we? Use the same numbers but reverse them, the guard at 70% mitigation and pally at 75%, quick math same numbers and guard takes on a 50k arcane hit 14625 damage and pally takes 10,125 damage.Raid wise all heals count, all wards count and they all work together, this is why your shammy and templar both are super high on the heal parse. While the heal can't 100% prevent all your incoming damage (which it can on a smaller hit, as not all hits are 50k) it works with all the other incoming heals.I have a pally who's raid geared and I have bezerker and a monk who are also raid geared. My Zerker has crazy gear compared to the pally, however with the Pally I can duo far more heroic zones with non healer friends than I can on the zerker or the monk bar none, no comparison, not even close, the "pathetic heals" keep me and my partner alive.The pally is a tank, not a healer and it's abilities are there to help mitigate damage not to save the group. The job of a tank is to hold agro and mitigate incoming damage everything after that is gravy, this is the design of the class and it's very successful at being this. I would like anyone to show me where the devs have stated the design of the Paladin class was for a pally to walk into a moderate to hard heroic zone and solo heal a group through it eliminating the need for healers, because before the heal crit nerf thats exactly what was happening.This QQ'ing about stonewill is asinine it's just another tool that tanks use to mitigate the impact of incoming damage, because other tanks can use it does nothing to diminish your ability to use it and your ability to use your heals, if a guard has 4 pieces of stonewill and you have 4 pieces of stonewill then the guard is still taking more damage! Once you hit the mitigation cap the only place you can go is damage reduction and healing abilities, since both classes are at the cap why can't they get some healing abilities? You certainly got mitigation. In short:if you can't see any advantage of augmenting your 4.5k heal with a 2k proc then your beyond help...

Kordran

11-10-2010, 08:04 PM

<cite>Boli32 wrote:</cite><blockquote>I'm not saying Stonewill should be nerfed... this is just one point of many which shows how far our healing power has gone from useful to not even worth casting beyond incoming and now is outclassed by the items we choose to wear.</blockquote>I always get a chuckle out of posts like this.Dont be naive, you are effectively asking for Stonewill to be nerfed. You've been playing this game long enough, you should know that when you write something like this, the first instinct for the devs is "yeah, that does seem like Stonewill is overpowered..." and not "we should completely revamp the healing functionality of the Paladin class..." Which do you think is the path of least resistance?Edit: And if, as a result or just chance, they do end up nerfing Stonewill in the near future, well... what happened to that defiler who got <a href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?topic_id=438198" target="_blank">Sacrifice nerfed</a> wasn't pleasant. On the upside, you'll get your very own RaR thread and they do sell name change potions and server transfer tokens on the Marketplace.

Boli32

11-10-2010, 10:01 PM

no.. I'm saying that nerfing healing on tanks and then giving stonewill 3 procs on EVERYTHING is just stupid.And having items which outheals our healing spells is quite frankly rediculous; and the paladins HEALS should be adjusted! - SW items are a good idea... if a tad overpowered at times to assist in soloing for all tanks... where thjey fail is being so much more powerful than abilities we have which are at most a gimic in raids; stupidly power expensive solo, next to useless in groups and are regually interupted.oh and for the above posters... if you have never EVER tried to cast a ward whlist tanking you'll understand exactly what is meant... and our heals are meant to deal with incoming damage.. but instead of say: guardian sphere (erm the 25% chance ot proc stoneskins on group) we get a group heal, which heals for 3kso we have a choice between having the chance to stop damage completely.... or a 3k heal which quite franky is laughable when your group have 30k health a piece; and most of the time the healers get there first meaning all you just did was waste power.

Soul_Dreamer

11-11-2010, 08:05 AM

An option then would be to make at least some abilities un-interuptable. I'm all for Balance but even in their current state Paladins aren't underpowered, Paladins take less sustained damage than other tanks, have great DPS and hate control and are one of the prime choices for the MT AND OT slots. If you really want more damage preventing abilities to handle spikes, or you want the ones you have currently to be improved then you need to loose things in some areas. Be it DPS, Agro control or some of the sustained damage absorption. I've got a low end Paladin which doesn't really count but I know how much of a ballache it used to be soloing on my Inquisitor before Steadfast was around, the interupts were painful to say the least.FYI. Stone Sphere will often do nothing, when I use it I see no noticable difference to the group, you've also decided to omit that the recast on your group heal is under 10 seconds, but the recast of Stone Sphere is 3 minutes and lasts 30 seconds. Then what about your group regenerating ward you can spec for? You CANNOT just compare one ability to another, especially when you aren't even comparing everything about that one ability.

Boli32

11-11-2010, 09:04 AM

The issue / drawback / benefit with guardian Sphere is to assist your group to survive on AoEs ifI'm right (I can't check right now) but you need to be hit first in order to have the 25% chance to proc the stoneskin. which roughly translates as "you're gonan get hit by the AoE.. but you have a 25% chance to survive the second or the DoT tick.The reason you see no desernable difference is well... if it works you'll never even notice it.In contrast our old group heal (when it crit) was powerful enough to "help" top up the group and I enhanced it a lot to do just that; a massive AoE hit and I hit the button... and it gave the healers in my group an extra second to deal with cures and/or use their own group heals to complete the job. Like your guardian sphere it required the members to be hit first to work only the group was healed up slightly instead of not takign amage at all.Obviously you are correct in the recast (7.5s vs 3min) HOWEVER this is somethign I have never really sanctioned on the paladin at all.. the recasts on the heals are stupidly low meaning whatever healign benefit we give is only really effective if you start to spam... this is even more of an issue now that the heals no logner crit andyou need to cast 2-4 heals depending on health to have any desernable benefit from them at all (which incidentlaly costs ~ 1000+ power).Longer recasts, durational heals which add something more than pure healing in order to scale up to raid content and be useful.The group heal is a prime example use Guardian Sphere as an example (protect the group/yourself from AoEs) and you can quite easily change it to:Recast 2m30sDuration 10sCasting 1s (or interuptable)Increases the potency of heals by 40%* If not a fighterCures 110 levels of all hostile effects on terminationA longer recast ability which mirrors the guardian sphere in role... that or protecting the group, but by increasing the healing power of the priests in the group for a short duration and cures the group to assist in curing Dots. GS is more tank related and reduces incomign damage, Prayer of Healing (our group "heal" could be more group protection related whilst still maintaining an air of healing about it.The constanrt spam of heals which is required to make them useful is jut sickening and yes... none interuptable heals/wards is every paladins wet dream; because when you relaly want that ward (when you're takign amage and lots of it) it becomes less and less likely you can actually get to cast it!

Wasuna

11-11-2010, 11:51 AM

You have to get hit for Guardian Sphere to proc. Then the stoneskin is up for 10 seconds. I'd have to go check but I'm 95% sure that is how it works.How does that help anybody stop an AoE? All it does it help a bit with a figh that's getting out of hand for the healers. SK's do a lifetap and Paladins cast a ward. Same thing and you can control yours. We can't control ours.It's not apples to apples.. it's not even the same food group.I do agree that the change to Guardian Sphere is helpful. For 6 years we have been avoiding that ability due to the instant death that it causes but even at that I only use it when I have a ton of stuff hitting me cause it's a waste any other time. I have gone through named instance fights where it didn't proc a single time in the whole fight and it was up for it's entire duration. Nice ability to rely on!Guardian Sphere is Stonewill on some juice.. ToS is three hits only which is nice when you can plan it's use. LMS helps a good bit also.While a couple of those abilities have the ability to focus them at the right time.. none of them will equal the heal parse form a paladin who already takes less damage than a Guardian from Physical hits.

Boli32

11-11-2010, 01:30 PM

Guardian Sphere will give a *chance* to help with secondary ticks of any Dots following an AoE.. or if 2 AoEs came close together. I'm not saying its the most fantastic spell in the world for group prevention... but it helpsby contrast pally heals (of which we only have 1 group - the lifetap portion on one of our AoEs does not count) you actually have to take the full brunt of the damage first. Previously the group heal did like guardian sphere did and allowed us to stabilitise the group for the healers.Guardain sphere however is very effective at reducing incoming damage on the TANK... 25% may not sound like a lot .. but it can be the difference bwteen life and death especially when combined with templar/dirge stoneskinsI'm not saying all pallys or myself want a carbon copy of the ability.. just somethign which helps our group survive the odd AoE better and if SoE do not like us healing so much then changing the group heal to heal like effects or protection will be ideal; obviously significantly increasing its recast to match.As for the "pally heals"... you have no doubt been shown and found the heal parse thread concerning the "2k/s heals" etc etc.. I can assure you in raids this simply is not possible... a single ability (crusaders faith) is responsbile for those spikes and such spikes only really occur in cella on the final named. I can show you many parses which skew taunts/heals/dps completly in most classes link them in group/guildchat and claim outrageous remarks about any class.Pally heals as I've shown and I can find you other examples if you wish are not the "wow" you claim... when the majority of my healing is "stonewill" sometimes as much as 50%+ it kind of brings you down to earth as to how much healing a pally can actually put out.As for the "take overall less damage"; I don;t think that's the case at all... you are comparing the 10% static DR with the 5% DR proc (if you even consider the 10% heal you have seriously got to be kidding me.)as you said we have heals which we can direct to "fill in" when we take damage spikes.. and yes, that is what they are intended to do... unfortunally the actual reality of them is less effective. and at the end of the day we have to actually take the damage to be healed. With a shield a guard has about as much or close to as much block% as a pallyguard (12+15+10)= 37% - which includes hunker I think you can have a red slot adorn which gives +block% after an attack as well; stagger the two and you have similar block%pally (24+15) = 39%include defensively minded and guardian's sphere into the equation and you can easily reduce your incoming damage by a further 5-10% especially if you stagger them. or time them with known damage spikes with the addition of your 5% DR proc the actual incoming damage from guards in the end will be very VERY similar to that of a pallys; the difference betwene the two is everyone one of our abilities we just have to suck up and take the damage; guardians avoid it much better which is where our heals SHOULD make up the difference.Except they do not; and they need to change.Honeslty 90% of a guardian's problems can be solved with the change of your flurry endline in the guardian tree to say : "35% chance to flurry - if shield equiped in secondary" or just a flat 20% flurry chance; but that's another issue...

Wasuna

11-11-2010, 02:28 PM

Sorry, you math says Paladins block more than Guardiand and that is including a short term buff with a red aodrnment applied to actually make it useful. Then you say Guardians are better. I don't get that logic.All of Guardians short terms buffs outside of defensive minded add physical mitigation and I'm a Legendary geared Guardian that is at the physical mitigation cap so what the heck good does that do? Defensive minded is good stuff but in the end, it's really our only worthwhile defensive buff.Again, Paladins take less damage over time than Guardians. They do more DPS (anywhere from a little to OMG more with a shield equiped I might add) and they have a self ward that they can recast after a very short time to help deal with spike damage.Giving Paladins stronger heals without some additional negative adjustments is wrong. You can get (and you said you do have them) stonewill items just like all other fighters so I'm confused how this comparision does anything other than try to get stonewill nerfed.

Controlor

11-11-2010, 06:28 PM

<cite>Wasuna wrote:</cite><blockquote>1) Sorry, you math says Paladins block more than Guardiand and that is including a short term buff with a red aodrnment applied to actually make it useful. Then you say Guardians are better. I don't get that logic.All of Guardians short terms buffs outside of defensive minded add physical mitigation and I'm a Legendary geared Guardian that is at the physical mitigation cap so what the heck good does that do? Defensive minded is good stuff but in the end, it's really our only worthwhile defensive buff.2) Again, Paladins take less damage over time than Guardians. They do more DPS (anywhere from a little to OMG more with a shield equiped I might add) and they have a self ward that they can recast after a very short time to help deal with spike damage.Giving Paladins stronger heals without some additional negative adjustments is wrong. You can get (and you said you do have them) stonewill items just like all other fighters so I'm confused how this comparision does anything other than try to get stonewill nerfed.</blockquote>To answer points 1 and 2:What boli was saying is this. In terms of sustained damage guardians and paladins (and ALL tanks) are pretty comparable. Paladins have slightly more avoid than a guard, and guards have slightly more mit than paladins. In terms of agro, with the amount of hate increase / transfer. Paladins and Guardians are pretty similar. Guards get more taunts (if memory serves), paladins offset this with dps. It is in the area of spike damage that paladins heals are supposed to be used. Not sustained damage, as i mentioned before, any and all sustained damage healers can EASILY take care of. Spike damage our heals are pitiful and useless in terms of helping with them.Yes paladins do more dps than a guardian (not the 2x someone claimed), but as Boli mentioned the OMG is only select fights that happened to be designed in a way to have high parses for certain classes. The guild i am in our MT is a guard, and he LOOOVES to link his 87k raid parse being #1 on the parse (beating our top wiz by over 20k). This is only one fight, zone wide he is no where close to that wiz. However he generally 1-2k higher parsing than me (but that is because our OT group doesnt give me too many dps buffs). The point i am making is that check the forums and you will see ZW's are pretty close paladin to guardians, with paladins just taking the edge.The self ward we can cast costs about 2-5% power to cast (not in game to confirm). And it wards for about 10% health (and this percent goes down the more HP you get). The fact that it has such a short recast means that if we want to get any benefit from it we need to constantly spam that and our single heal. Which as pointed out serveral times is EASILY if not almost ALWAYS interuptable (specially with the aoe's having stun / KB effect on them). All we are asking for is to make our heals useful to do what it is ment to do, deal with spike damage.Paladins have 5 base heals, 2 additional aa heals, and 1 myth heal. First the myth heal is laughable in how much it heals. Let alone it staying alive in an aoe. 1 of the 2 aa heals is just as laughable. Heals for less than our primary single target heal, and costs more power, with longer recast. WEEE!! The second aa heal is semi useful in that it heals more the more dmg your group does. Though most paladins dont spec it for raids, very situational. Continuing on aa. Besides the 2 aa heals, paladins have 11 that is right 11 aa's dedicated to improving our heals. Which makes 11 aa's prety useless to even spec for because the improvement still doesnt help the fact that our 5 base heals are still not that effective. Take lay hands, 5 min recast, supposed to be a big heal for us, instead it heals for about 10-12k which in raids is about 30% of our health.There have been a couple of threads on how to improve paladin heals without overpowering them. That is to improve them in such a way that they are useful to cast, but doesnt greatly increase a paladins abilities. Most paladins would agree to increase the recast of our heals (sept lay hands that they just need to turn into a % base heal of over 50%, see monks heal which heals for more than lay hands with faster reuse). With the increase in recast either change them to boost abilities, or increase the heal amount. If you actually look at the math you can increase the reuse high enough, while increasing the heal amount, in such a way that the HPS does not change that much. However the increase heal amount would help deal with spike damage. The "negative adjustment" would be changing the recast on heals.And no Boli is NOT asking to nerf stonewill, he was mearly using it as an example of how broken paladins heals are. You want more examples fine. SK and Berzerker. BOTH of these classes heal for more than a paladin. SK's reaver heals for 2%+ (with adorn) health for every spell that they cast. That is not including all the lifetap affects on their spells. Zerkers have that one spell that heals them for a lot whenever they take damage. The reaver is to help SK's deal with sustained damage. The berzerkers is to help with both sustained and spike damage. Again both of these classes out heal paladins in raids zone wide. Should we nerf these classes? HELL NO!!! Just because i mention them does not mean i want them nerfed. I am using them as an example that a paladin which is supposed to use our healing to offset spike damage. DOES NOT WORK. Our heals do not offset spike damage, and as a point item procs are more useful in offseting spike and sustained damage than our heals in terms of HPS.

Soul_Dreamer

11-11-2010, 07:59 PM

In most posts here Paladins are saying they have more DPS, more Hate, take less sustained damage, and yet you're still asking for better spike handling abilities? If you get it, Paladins will be hands down the most defensive tank while also having some of the best DPS/Hate control of the tanks.***@Guardians having more Mit.... are you honestly serious, ALL raid tanks are capped and most Legendary geared tanks are capped. The 10% DR you have over a Guardian means you take less damage, this also works on AOE's, ohh then add in the 40% Reduction and 200% reflect from LC for some AOE effect reduction. DPS is relatively equal??? Are you forgetting Paladins are doing this with a shield while a Guardian has to give up all uncontested avoidance to get close, this alone isn't even close to balanced.How exactly do I "Rotate" a buff which lasts 20 seconds and has a recast of 3 mins (Defensive Minded), with one that lasts 40 seconds and has a recast of 40 seconds that starts when the buff drops.. Please, let me know so I can use these buffs rotationally to equal the permanent block a Paladin has.About increasing the recast and increasing the heal amount.. you're achieving the effect at the top (***). If this happens, being the other defensive tank class I want more DPS, more hate and more sustained damage reduction to balance it out. Paladins have everything a tank needs to get the job done and then some in a lot of cases, giving them more Defensive abilities will make some other tanks classes even more redundant than they are already.

Controlor

11-11-2010, 11:14 PM

I will say this again. To talk about (Sustained) hate generation and (Sustained) damage is absolutely pointless between guard / pally. Hell the only class that might have issue with sustained hate generation (tank wis) is brawlers. It has been pointed out several times that amends really does not do a whole lot in terms of raid agro. Assassin + Coercer (with aa) = about 41% hate transfered to the tank. Amends would then net 9% hate transfer (at most, vs the 41% it is supposed to give) since cap is 50%. Add in guardians AA for +15% hate trhasnfer and guess what, they are capped at 50% with paladins, so to claim that they have better sustained because of amends is utter bull. In terms of sustained damage again the only class that may have an issue is bralwers but that is because avoid != mit in terms of avoiding dmg. Again sustained damage is not that important because healers can easily cover that. You also keep mentioning that 10% dmg reduction from the myth. That only reduces melee damage, not magical, but that is neither here nor there.In raiding it is about spike damage / hate snaps. Fact is Paladins are lacking relatively in both departments. They have the fewest number of snap agro of any tanks. Yes there is holy ground but it is only 1 hate position, and that doesnt bring you back from 0 hate to top fast enough, maybe after the mob has killed 4-5 people you would get agro back if you just use that. The only other snap agro they get is Rescue, and Sneering Assault. Both of which every tank class gets. Again as mentioned a number of times in this thread, paladins have less spike damage preventions than guards. I dont know sk's and zerkers well enough to talk about their spike damage prevention.So no in 2 HUGELY important areas paladins are lacking. To break it down.DPS: Paladins > GuardsSustained damage: Basically evenSustained hate: Basically evenSpike damage: Guards > PaladinsSnap agro: Guards > PaladinsAll we are asking for is to put our spike damage back on par to around what it used to be. The dev's have said that it is broken and is trying to balance this. However since that statement they have yet to give further info on how or when. All we want to know is how and when can we expect this obvious issue.

Soul_Dreamer

11-12-2010, 06:28 AM

DPS = Hate, or are you confused on that matter, Paladins do more DPS = Paladins have more hate. In the same breath you've just said Paladins have more DPS but Hate is basically even, which just isn't the case.Fixed Below, seems pretty balanced to me, if anything there are more things the Paladin is better at than the Guardian and yet you still want more.DPS: Paladins > GuardsPaladins do more DPS, end of.AOE DPS: Paladins > GuardiansGuardians have 2 Blue AOE's, and 1 Green which has a 2 second cast time, Paladins do a lot more AOE damage.Sustained (inc) damage: Paladins > GuardsHigher Block, higher % Damage reduction and equal mit on the Paladin means they take less sustained damage.Sustained (inc) AOE damage: Paladins > GuardiansDue to the above since neither have abilities that transfer well to more mobs on you = less damage inc, where Zerks and SK's this is the case, Adrenaline reduces damage no matter how many are you on, SK's have abilities that lifetap more the more mobs on you, reaver will heal 2% per target (I've been informed) as well and SK's have lots of AOE's.Sustained hate: Paladins > GuardsDue to the extra damage, for every 1 DPS more a Paladin does they gain 1.5 hatePS over the Guardian due to both being at 50% +Hate and Transfer caps.To Clarify Transfers aside (both have the same potential here and it's not dependant on the tank)If both are doing 20k DPS then both will have 30k hatePS, due to the 50% + Hate mod.If the Guardian is doing 20k DPS and the Paladin is doing 28k DPS then the Guardian has 30khatePS and the Paladin 42khatePS. The 8k DPS gain is a 12khatePS gain over the Guardian.Sustained AOE Hate: Paladins > Guardians.Same as above.Spike damage: Guards > PaladinsTower of Stone/Block/Stone Sphere Vs the Paladins Heals, here the Guardian wins.Snap agro: Guards > PaladinsReinforcement, and the Warrior AA are all the Guardian has over the Paladin, Paladins do have holy Ground but that is AOE and only 1 hate position. The Guardian "Plant" DOES NOT WORK on 90% of raid content, even lots of adds are immune to this target lock ability so it's of limited use.

Boli32

11-12-2010, 08:13 AM

<cite>Soul_Dreamer wrote:</cite><blockquote>Sustained (inc) damage: Paladins > GuardsHigher Block, higher % Damage reduction and equal mit on the Paladin means they take less sustained damage.Sustained (inc) AOE damage: Paladins > GuardiansDue to the above since neither have abilities that transfer well to more mobs on you = less damage inc, where Zerks and SK's this is the case, Adrenaline reduces damage no matter how many are you on, SK's have abilities that lifetap more the more mobs on you, reaver will heal 2% per target (I've been informed) as well and SK's have lots of AOE's.</blockquote>Higher block% keeps getting thrown at pallys, but count up the numbers block% its 39% bonus vs 37% bonus including hunker and I think to my knowledge hunker down can pretty much be maintained most if not all of the time; plus you can red adorn for an additional block%... in truth gear/group will be the decider here; but you're looking at virtually identical block%Guardian Sphere, Duration 36s Recast 3min Defensive Minded Duraiton 20s Recast 3minGS recast reduced by 40s (2m20s); Guards have 20% recast reduction also; in short you're looking at one of these abilities being cast every other min; give or take a few seconds here and there. Especially if you have 1 or 2 items/adorns which help with reuse. So first min GS, second min DM, 3rd min GS 4th min DM.Both of these abilities are not in a guardian's "spike damage prevention arsenal" but are rotated and staggered so they are up intermitantly. Lets say they both reduce incoming damage by ~ 15% and they are up between then ~ 40% of the time that will reduce incoming damage by ~ 6% overallYour Damage reudtion proc, no its *not* up all the time, but 2.4x min duration 12s; factor in cast speed, haste and its as close to up most of the time as you can get, epsecially procing immunity to status effects into the equation such as stuns/stifles/dazes. Aura of the crusader may be recast 1min duration 30s immunity.. but you only get the immunity if a status effect is dispelled which renders it near useless in raids. so lets say overall your DR proc gives you 4% DR.4+6 = 10 which is the same as a paladins static DRInclude your imunity to ripostes into the mix and count it as "equal" to our 10% heal - and that's being generous... my 10% "ubbah heal"... has a hps in most encoutners of less than 10hps - by contrast Riposites from some of the higher tier mobs are brutal.I'm ignoring mit but in my full raid gear I am *not* at the mit cap on my pally, full T3 geared its close...but no only with sigil up do I pass the cap. In contrast Guards in the same gear generally get to the cap vs 98 mobs most of the time. I'm ignoring it but you're looking at about 0.5% differnce in incoming damage which if you're being picky I could include.As for splitting up the incoming AoE damage I have no idea what you're trying to prove; no, guards's can't hold agro as well as a pally in AoE circumstances on a raid but I have news for you... on a raid they won't even ASK you to and SK and Zerker completly pwn both of us in AoE agro when it comes down to it.DM and GS are also not dependant on how many mobs are on you... in fact if multiple mobs are on you for only a short duration then I dunno but I would rather have a 25% chance of Stoneskin whilst being attacked by 20+ mobs for 30s or even adding a 20% inate dodge chance woudl be kind of handy when they get round the back of me. Add to that with that many mobs the ability to cast heals on a pally is completly redundant.The thinking that pallys take less incoming damage than guards not including damage spikes (which guards pwn at) is a complete lie when compared to an even halfway decent guard.The issue here... and always was the issue is that our heals are completly redundant as far as actually doing what they should which is act as our spike damage prevention or something similar and we are outhealed by SKs and Zerkers easily on heals, the monks "mend" heals for more than our LoH (b/c its % based) and has a 3min recast instead of a 5min recast; in fact the only tank we outheal ar guardians... but not by much given the main source of tank healing of late is Stonewill items.Tanks die from damage spikes not sustained damage at the end of the day but as far as Sustained incoming damage Guard == Pally.If you have issues with DPS/Agro - which from what you are saying you still need tweaks I suggest your own forum what Pallys have major issues with is our heals or lack of them.Oh; and if you ever start to say that pallys have "more hate gain/transfer" than guards you seriously need to look at your group setups... *everyone* can get 50% hate gain 50% transfer in a raid MT group.

Soul_Dreamer

11-12-2010, 12:04 PM

<cite>Boli32 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Soul_Dreamer wrote:</cite><blockquote>Sustained (inc) damage: Paladins > GuardsHigher Block, higher % Damage reduction and equal mit on the Paladin means they take less sustained damage.Sustained (inc) AOE damage: Paladins > GuardiansDue to the above since neither have abilities that transfer well to more mobs on you = less damage inc, where Zerks and SK's this is the case, Adrenaline reduces damage no matter how many are you on, SK's have abilities that lifetap more the more mobs on you, reaver will heal 2% per target (I've been informed) as well and SK's have lots of AOE's.</blockquote>Higher block% keeps getting thrown at pallys, but count up the numbers block% its 39% bonus vs 37% bonus including hunker and I think to my knowledge hunker down can pretty much be maintained most if not all of the time; plus you can red adorn for an additional block%... in truth gear/group will be the decider here; but you're looking at virtually identical block% Hunker Downs recast starts when the ability ends, so no it cannot be up ALL THE TIME! Recast is 1 min base, usually about 50 seconds or so and the duration can be increased, which doesn't really do much since it also prolongs the time until you can use it again.27% is the Guardians constant block, I don't even know why you're trying to add onto it all the temporary abilities which you obviously don't know about in the first place. <div></div>Guardian Sphere, Duration 36s Recast 3min Defensive Minded Duraiton 20s Recast 3minGS recast reduced by 40s (2m20s); Guards have 20% recast reduction also; in short you're looking at one of these abilities being cast every other min; give or take a few seconds here and there. Especially if you have 1 or 2 items/adorns which help with reuse. So first min GS, second min DM, 3rd min GS 4th min DM.Both of these abilities are not in a guardian's "spike damage prevention arsenal" but are rotated and staggered so they are up intermitantly. Lets say they both reduce incoming damage by ~ 15% and they are up between then ~ 40% of the time that will reduce incoming damage by ~ 6% overallThese are some big assumptions of the reduction they are giving, you've also neglected to mention that DM is an avoidance buff which is next to usless on most raid mobs because of their high strikethrough values. Can I add Legionairs Conviction to these assumptions and add it to the Paladin's incomming reduction, 2 AOE's out of every 9 AOE's with a recast of 2 min 20 give or take. DM is also NOT A REDUCTION it's a chance to avoid melee attacks, this won't effect AOE's which are the majority of the mobs DPS. 75% of the time GS won't effect this damage also since that's the % chance of the effect NOT being up for it.<div>Your Damage reudtion proc, no its *not* up all the time, but 2.4x min duration 12s; factor in cast speed, haste and its as close to up most of the time as you can get, epsecially procing immunity to status effects into the equation such as stuns/stifles/dazes. Aura of the crusader may be recast 1min duration 30s immunity.. but you only get the immunity if a status effect is dispelled which renders it near useless in raids. so lets say overall your DR proc gives you 4% DR.</div>This isn't even close, the proc is up at best 50% of the time. You're picking numbers out of your backside, I'm a Guardian who MT's raids and has been since DOF. This effect isn't up anywhere near as much as you're assuming. Especially when you consider the mobs it's useful against it doesn't proc if we can't attack at the time, so we can't proc the immuntiy (WHICH ANY TANK CAN GET!) so the DR isn't up.<div>4+6 = 10 which is the same as a paladins static DR</div><div><div></div><div>WOW, your made up numbers equalled that of the Paladins CONSTANT reduction, who'da thunk it, we are even. /sarcasm off.</div><div></div></div>Include your imunity to ripostes into the mix and count it as "equal" to our 10% heal - and that's being generous... my 10% "ubbah heal"... has a hps in most encoutners of less than 10hps - by contrast Riposites from some of the higher tier mobs are brutal.LOL, your actually including Riposte immunity because of what, a handful of raid encounters. This is possibly the worst effect on any Mythical buff, Guardians have been requesting for YEARS for it to be changed to something useful.<div></div>I'm ignoring mit but in my full raid gear I am *not* at the mit cap on my pally, full T3 geared its close...but no only with sigil up do I pass the cap. In contrast Guards in the same gear generally get to the cap vs 98 mobs most of the time. I'm ignoring it but you're looking at about 0.5% differnce in incoming damage which if you're being picky I could include.Even our SK is capped against level 98 mobs when in a MT role with Templar + Defiler, I Call BS to this!.<div>As for splitting up the incoming AoE damage I have no idea what you're trying to prove; no, guards's can't hold agro as well as a pally in AoE circumstances on a raid but I have news for you... on a raid they won't even ASK you to and SK and Zerker completly pwn both of us in AoE agro when it comes down to it.</div>DM and GS are also not dependant on how many mobs are on you... in fact if multiple mobs are on you for only a short duration then I dunno but I would rather have a 25% chance of Stoneskin whilst being attacked by 20+ mobs for 30s or even adding a 20% inate dodge chance woudl be kind of handy when they get round the back of me. Add to that with that many mobs the ability to cast heals on a pally is completly redundant.So I can have 20% dodge every 3 mins for 20 seconds, if any of these mobs are casting anything or do any magic damage of any sort, you can have LC up for longer and it's a 40% reduction WITH outgoing DPS. Again, you can't pick and choose abilities and not others. Both are situational, which is why I said in my other post we're about even because neither class has abilities that transfer into AOE encounters well, Guardians main stoneskins are down almost instantly with more than 2 mobs on them.<div>The thinking that pallys take less incoming damage than guards not including damage spikes (which guards pwn at) is a complete lie when compared to an even halfway decent guard.</div>Look at how much Guardians pay for those Spike damage abilities in DPS/Hate/Utility. I just don't understand how you can justify having it without giving up some things for it.Paladins DO take less incomming damage than Guardian (Besides spikes), it doesn't matter how you scew the numbers or abilities in your favour, requesting more spike prevention will just add another ability to the Paladin that helps to make Guardians redundant. A paladin takes less inc damage, has more hate/dps and better group/raid buffs. You HAVE to pay for this somewhere in an area or 2 or it's just not balanced.The issue here... and always was the issue is that our heals are completly redundant as far as actually doing what they should which is act as our spike damage prevention or something similar and we are outhealed by SKs and Zerkers easily on heals, the monks "mend" heals for more than our LoH (b/c its % based) and has a 3min recast instead of a 5min recast; in fact the only tank we outheal ar guardians... but not by much given the main source of tank healing of late is Stonewill items.This issue has come about primarily because SOE have given healing abilities out like candy, in the same way they've given defensive abilities out like candy to the offensive tanks. Further buffing other classes isn't the answer. <div></div>Tanks die from damage spikes not sustained damage at the end of the day but as far as Sustained incoming damage Guard == Pally.False, even if the gap isn't massive, what abot the other areas a Paladin excels in, I've stated them above. You simply can't have everything. ALL classes need a weakness, without what the hell is the point in even having the different classes.<div></div>If you have issues with DPS/Agro - which from what you are saying you still need tweaks I suggest your own forum what Pallys have major issues with is our heals or lack of them.Every suggestion we've asked for has been ignored OR shouted down by other tanks in the feedback thread we had from a dev, yes Guardians need DPS help but I don't see why other tanks should stand by while Paladins are asking for Stoneskins/Group damage reduction/group AOE avoid/40 f**king % Potency buffs and whatever else you added to your list earlier that you think you need. These changes will just OP the class.<div>Oh; and if you ever start to say that pallys have "more hate gain/transfer" than guards you seriously need to look at your group setups... *everyone* can get 50% hate gain 50% transfer in a raid MT group.</div>Where the hell did I say this? Paladins do more DPS, YES. Guardian and Paladin will be at +50% Hate (cap) and +50% transfer (cap) in raids. The EXTRA DPS means you have more hate, plain and simple! Add to that the difference in AOE DPS and you have a huge advantage in AOE Hate (which you said above you've chosen to discount)</blockquote>Unless Paladins are willing to give something up for Guardian like damage spike abilities then there is NO WAY they should be given them, and this is exactly what you're asking for.

rabid.pooh

11-13-2010, 08:13 AM

<cite>Boli32 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Soul_Dreamer wrote:</cite><blockquote>Sustained (inc) damage: Paladins > GuardsHigher Block, higher % Damage reduction and equal mit on the Paladin means they take less sustained damage.Sustained (inc) AOE damage: Paladins > GuardiansDue to the above since neither have abilities that transfer well to more mobs on you = less damage inc, where Zerks and SK's this is the case, Adrenaline reduces damage no matter how many are you on, SK's have abilities that lifetap more the more mobs on you, reaver will heal 2% per target (I've been informed) as well and SK's have lots of AOE's.</blockquote>Higher block% keeps getting thrown at pallys, but count up the numbers block% its 39% bonus vs 37% bonus including hunker and I think to my knowledge hunker down can pretty much be maintained most if not all of the time; plus you can red adorn for an additional block%... in truth gear/group will be the decider here; but you're looking at virtually identical block%Ya, no hunker down isn't up all the time, guards have two temps close to the same duration and alternate between the two. The shield bash adorn buff you can get that going pretty much all of the time, just don't forget to keep hitting it. Even with that tho the pally has a higher block % just sitting there and casting nothing. Never mind the fact that (let me dust off this old chest nut) to hold agro a guard is pretty Duel wielding through 90% of the fights netting a 0% block, to achieve comparable dps...)Guardian Sphere, Duration 36s Recast 3min Defensive Minded Duraiton 20s Recast 3minLove defensive minded but fire up act avoid reports and see what % you dodge in the raid for the night, without food usually around .5%, again it's temporary and the best thing about it is the boost to reuses. I notice you don't mention Legionnaires conviction at all 40% damage reduction 200% reflected back in damage for 20 seconds on a 2:30 recast? Thats huge man I'll take that over Defensive minded hands down, and I loved DM!GS recast reduced by 40s (2m20s); Guards have 20% recast reduction also; in short you're looking at one of these abilities being cast every other min; give or take a few seconds here and there. Especially if you have 1 or 2 items/adorns which help with reuse. So first min GS, second min DM, 3rd min GS 4th min DM.I haven't played as a guard since the change to GS, however something you can count on is always greater than a % chance to happen, fluke procs give fluke results. Both of these abilities are not in a guardian's "spike damage prevention arsenal" but are rotated and staggered so they are up intermitantly. Lets say they both reduce incoming damage by ~ 15% and they are up between then ~ 40% of the time that will reduce incoming damage by ~ 6% overallYour Damage reudtion proc, no its *not* up all the time, but 2.4x min duration 12s; factor in cast speed, haste and its as close to up most of the time as you can get, epsecially procing immunity to status effects into the equation such as stuns/stifles/dazes. Aura of the crusader may be recast 1min duration 30s immunity.. but you only get the immunity if a status effect is dispelled which renders it near useless in raids. so lets say overall your DR proc gives you 4% DR.It's a normalized proc rate, you don't factor in cast speed and haste, if it was a raw % then those stats could effect the proc rate, it is up half the time, and not almost up all the time. I have no idea why SOE changed that this expansion it made no sense, I'm pretty sure it's a bug done by a dev who was just copy/pasting and thought that was intended.4+6 = 10 which is the same as a paladins static DR.No it isn't, pally's take less damage period.Include your imunity to ripostes into the mix and count it as "equal" to our 10% heal - and that's being generous... my 10% "ubbah heal"... has a hps in most encoutners of less than 10hps - by contrast Riposites from some of the higher tier mobs are brutal.Lol ya w/e, I tank these high level hard mode mobs, and I have never said "Uhm, I took a riposite for 35k" on vent when they ask Ninety what killed you, I would think a brawler raid mob may drop some good riposites tho, I just can't think of any atm Riposite damage also comes in at significantly less than regular auto attack damage, I don't know the % tho.I'm ignoring mit but in my full raid gear I am *not* at the mit cap on my pally, full T3 geared its close...but no only with sigil up do I pass the cap. In contrast Guards in the same gear generally get to the cap vs 98 mobs most of the time. I'm ignoring it but you're looking at about 0.5% differnce in incoming damage which if you're being picky I could include.As for splitting up the incoming AoE damage I have no idea what you're trying to prove; no, guards's can't hold agro as well as a pally in AoE circumstances on a raid but I have news for you... on a raid they won't even ASK you to and SK and Zerker completly pwn both of us in AoE agro when it comes down to it.DM and GS are also not dependant on how many mobs are on you... in fact if multiple mobs are on you for only a short duration then I dunno but I would rather have a 25% chance of Stoneskin whilst being attacked by 20+ mobs for 30s or even adding a 20% inate dodge chance woudl be kind of handy when they get round the back of me. Add to that with that many mobs the ability to cast heals on a pally is completly redundant.This is a good point, and this is what makes Tower of stone and last man standing suck, because the stone skins can be eaten up by adds when your trying to TOS through an AOE, or just stay up. Unlike the pally 8 second stonewall ability which also isn't dependant on how many mobs your on. Your stuck on DM, it's not as good as you think it is, when I first got it I would go to it, and be severely disappointed, as it just didn't show in the avoidance reports.The thinking that pallys take less incoming damage than guards not including damage spikes (which guards pwn at) is a complete lie when compared to an even halfway decent guard.I can show you months and months of act reports that say differently, fact is there was very little difference in the average incoming damage between me (when I was a guard) and the crusaders.The issue here... and always was the issue is that our heals are completly redundant as far as actually doing what they should which is act as our spike damage prevention or something similar and we are outhealed by SKs and Zerkers easily on heals, the monks "mend" heals for more than our LoH (b/c its % based) and has a 3min recast instead of a 5min recast; in fact the only tank we outheal ar guardians... but not by much given the main source of tank healing of late is Stonewill items.Ya, no not Zerkers bud, Last hard mode fish we did I came out with a 305hps on the zerker, the guild pally came out with a 550 hps, and the guild SK came in at 356, I can post the parse if you want, and zonewides the gap increases in the pally favor even more. And I'm not even standing on top of the pally the entire fight so you know he's out of range healing too.Far as how I'm geared, I have every damage absorbing, dodging and deffensive red adorn on possible, heck I even have the uselless bezerk ward on! And the pally wasn't even casting his heals, Aura of leadership, stonewill and blessing of the paladin was just over 75% of his heal parse. Stonewill was half my parse and 24% of his.Tanks die from damage spikes not sustained damage at the end of the day but as far as Sustained incoming damage Guard == Pally.Again No, but even if it the incoming damage was the same, the guard has no healing, no self regens, no self wards, no nothing, his heal parse shows the stonewill item and thats it.If you have issues with DPS/Agro - which from what you are saying you still need tweaks I suggest your own forum what Pallys have major issues with is our heals or lack of them.Oh; and if you ever start to say that pallys have "more hate gain/transfer" than guards you seriously need to look at your group setups... *everyone* can get 50% hate gain 50% transfer in a raid MT group.I will agree with you here, I never had much trouble with agro, but I would cast the trak shield buff. That being said agro really is a ton load easier on the pally.</blockquote>Basically I think you must be a DEV and your looking at a spreadsheet thinking ya, this class must be equal to that class, but thats what it looks like on paper. And thats just not true, Guards are horrid right now, the changes addressed none of the survivability problems. My guild was going to let me switch from my t3 geared 2 1/2 year played guard to a barely geared Paladin because even they had recognized the disparity in the class, however we recruited a pally because the bruiser quit so I betrayed to a Zerker.Back to original post tho.Tell you what, I'm totally ready to say buff the heck out of the pally heal, after you bring the crusader mitigation level back to what it was in past expansions, because I don't see you complaining that pallies have to much mitigation that rivals warriors but I do you see you QQ'n because they can have stonewill heals... Past expansion crusaders were no where near the mit cap, and we all know as a tank mitigation > all.Btw, when you start a Zerkers are totally OP thread I'll be there agreeing with you, and if you want to compare Pally vs Zerker that would be an interesting one because I'm not sure which one would come out. I do however play both so I know whats going on in game just not on paper... It comes down to this there are things I can do on my Pally that I can't do on my Zerker and could never dream of doing on a guard. Everything I can on my Zerker, I can do on Pally just slower :p. The nerf to critical healing was needed in this game, that or nerf crusader mitigation and give them back the critical healing (even then the pallies in the know would be laughing as they solo heal heroic zones and keep their groups 'topped up'<img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />.

Controlor

11-13-2010, 02:55 PM

You do know that they will be "nerfing" mit in feb for next expac... they were going to do it a couple months ago but atm the mobs are designed in such a way that you need pretty much to be at mit cap. So they are holding off till next expac to hopefully "balance" it out. Whatever the balanacing of SOE is worth. I tred to wait for my guilds guard MT to get actual numbers on our mit / avoid difference, but he never came on yesterday.And no ont QQing about other tanks getting stonewill. It was just an example of how broken our heals are when an item will heal for more than our heals. Which as i pointed out we have 5 base heals, 2 possible aa heals, 1 myth heal. With 11 AA's dedicated to "helping" our heals. All of which are pretty useless since heals are pretty useless.We are not asking for crit heals back. We are asking for our heals to be improved to adjust to content. WE DONT want our heals to be so OP that we can solo heal instances. Sure it was nice but thats not what we are wanting. There have been suggestions on other threads on how to change or improve our heals so that they still "act" like heals. However they would not allow us to solo heal group content, AND they would scale to raid content.

Soul_Dreamer

11-14-2010, 10:35 PM

<cite>Controlor wrote:</cite><blockquote>You do know that they will be "nerfing" mit in feb for next expac... they were going to do it a couple months ago but atm the mobs are designed in such a way that you need pretty much to be at mit cap. So they are holding off till next expac to hopefully "balance" it out. Whatever the balanacing of SOE is worth. I tred to wait for my guilds guard MT to get actual numbers on our mit / avoid difference, but he never came on yesterday.And no ont QQing about other tanks getting stonewill. It was just an example of how broken our heals are when an item will heal for more than our heals. Which as i pointed out we have 5 base heals, 2 possible aa heals, 1 myth heal. With 11 AA's dedicated to "helping" our heals. All of which are pretty useless since heals are pretty useless.We are not asking for crit heals back. We are asking for our heals to be improved to adjust to content. WE DONT want our heals to be so OP that we can solo heal instances. Sure it was nice but thats not what we are wanting. There have been suggestions on other threads on how to change or improve our heals so that they still "act" like heals. However they would not allow us to solo heal group content, AND they would scale to raid content.</blockquote>And, every class has them, as a Guardian my Mit buffs are 100% redundant because I'm already over cap in mit, I still have 2 abilities that stand a HIGH chance of killing me if I use them in the way they are meant to be used. ALL of these abilities are AA choices for a Guardian, some we even have to take if we want other abilities in the tree. Zerkers have the same issue with mit buffs, and I'm sure SK's have similar issues with their lifetaps as Paladins do with their heals.Right now Paladins have all the benefits of a Guardian except their Stoneskin abilities and the 1 or 2 useful temporary buffs we have, at the same time you have superior DPS and Hate in both AOE and ST situations. In this thread and others I'm seeing people ask for Stoneskins/MASSIVE potency buffs/Damage reduction and lots of other things, currently these changes will just OP the class and make Guardians even more redundant as a defensive tank. Fine if you want you heals fixed/changed, I have no problem with that but you can't keep everything else at the same time, or other classes need more improving. For example. 2 of your healing abilities are changed to be useful, one is now a 2 shot stoneskin (Mini tower of stone on a 2 min timer), the other is a 20k ward on a 40 second timer. You now have equal ability to a Guardian to block the very large incomming hits as well as the same mit, more DPS, more Hate. Where does this leave Guardians, should they suddenly get more DPS etc. Then what about Zerkers when the Guardians are rivalling their DPS in AOE and ST situations, do they get even more defensive abilities. WHERE DOES THE BUFFING END!At some point in time we need to accept the limitations of our classes and stop looking over the fence to see what the neighbours have. I'm happy with my Guardian and I believe we're where we should be, I do think some of the tank classes are OP at the moment when compared to a Guardian though, this is mainly due to the mitigation bug SOE are refusing to fix until the next expansion (That has been around since TSO). Basically I'm happy with having slightly less DPS and Hate IF THERE IS A REASON FOR IT, currently there isn't due to the mit bug.Currently SK's/Zerks/Paladins all have the mitigation of a Guardian and other newer defensive abilities but I see no area they had to pay for these, until I do and I see there being balance I'm not going to be happy with buffing classes even further, so, I'll argue against it.

Boethius_Permafrost

11-16-2010, 01:14 PM

The point is that the majority of paladin defensive spells are currently completely useless.Guardians may have thier own problems, but this really isn't about you.

Soul_Dreamer

11-16-2010, 08:32 PM

Adding this....stoneskins, damage reduction, mitigation increase, health increases, ability which increases the healing power of heals cast on the paladin, ability to protect the group from AoEs, short term immunity to ripostes/striketstoneskins, damage reduction, mitigation increase, health increases, ability which increases the healing power of heals cast on the paladin, ability to protect the group from AoEs, short term immunity to ripostes/strikethroughs/interuptshroughs/interupts.To a class that is already a primary choice for ALL aspects of tanking then it effects tank balance, so yes it is about every single tank class, including Guardians.You suddenly want Adrenaline/Tower of Stone/Guardian Mitigation buffs/Guardian HP Buffs/Guardian AOE protection AA choices.. and you want them for free with no loss in any area because your heals now heal for less?

Controlor

11-17-2010, 02:06 AM

We are not asking for every one of those things no. We ARE asking to improve broken heals. This could include 1 of those things sure. However i am more for just increasing the base heal amounts of our heals by 1.5 - 2x while increasing the reuse 2-2.5x. This would make out heals more viable for spike damage without overpowering them in any fassion. As the HPS would be about what it is now (maybe slightly more due to pot / aa choices), but nothing OMG i am a healer now woo. If you think it would you are kidding yourself. IF ONE of them was turned into a big heal only pot buff, or a stoneskin, or whatever, than it would have its recast adjusted accordingly. Again though we are not asking for stoneskin, and pot, and dmg reduc, and mit increas, and protection from aoe, and all the other stuff you claim we are asking for.Also Lay Hands NEEDS to be % based. Period. No argument about this one. This is supposed to be one of our biggest "oh crap" spells for spike damage. Currently costs nearly 500 power. and heals for about 30% in raids. (500 power is a LOT of power when it used to be 0 power (now about 5% power)). Versus SK's Harm Touch which is 0 power big nuke and heals for about 10-15%. Or Monks mend which is 0 pr and heals % based for more than lay hands (think 50% or more).

Maamadex

11-17-2010, 03:20 AM

It's not that they just heal for less, they heal for a whole lot less, can be interrupted and are [Removed for Content] near useless in most situations. The relevance of casting them at all has gone down considerably and needs to be addressed. If anything, the heals we have could be changed to something else, because as they are they are now they barely merit a place on our hotbars. And yeah, the whole lay hands harm touch thing etc...lol. Lay hands should be no power cost.

Soul_Dreamer

11-17-2010, 08:11 AM

<cite>Controlor wrote:</cite><blockquote>We are not asking for every one of those things no. We ARE asking to improve broken heals. This could include 1 of those things sure. However i am more for just increasing the base heal amounts of our heals by 1.5 - 2x while increasing the reuse 2-2.5x. This would make out heals more viable for spike damage without overpowering them in any fassion. As the HPS would be about what it is now (maybe slightly more due to pot / aa choices), but nothing OMG i am a healer now woo. If you think it would you are kidding yourself. IF ONE of them was turned into a big heal only pot buff, or a stoneskin, or whatever, than it would have its recast adjusted accordingly. Again though we are not asking for stoneskin, and pot, and dmg reduc, and mit increas, and protection from aoe, and all the other stuff you claim we are asking for.Also Lay Hands NEEDS to be % based. Period. No argument about this one. This is supposed to be one of our biggest "oh crap" spells for spike damage. Currently costs nearly 500 power. and heals for about 30% in raids. (500 power is a LOT of power when it used to be 0 power (now about 5% power)). Versus SK's Harm Touch which is 0 power big nuke and heals for about 10-15%. Or Monks mend which is 0 pr and heals % based for more than lay hands (think 50% or more).</blockquote>It's not me "Claiming" you're asking for it, it's Boli ASKING for it! I have no problem with your healing being increased slightly and recasts raised. I do have a problem with you asking for abilities that are and have always been Warrior abilities, it would OP the Paladin class to have that much spike prevention while keeping the DPS and Hate you have over other fighters. If you want the Spike prevention of a Guardian then you pay the same price Guardians do in all other areas.

Boli32

11-17-2010, 09:31 AM

I never said I wanted EVERYTHING... jeez!SoE have through nerfing the heal crits and made it very clear (I'll try and find a quote if I can) that they never wanted fighters to heal as much as they did pretty much told the entire paladin community that healing and fighters will never happen again. My point is GEAR heals far more than our spells and certainly easier to use; SKs and Zerkers actually heal more than Pallys.so our ENTIRE NICHE... that of being a tank with heals... is rendered useless; so my suggestion if you are not gonna give/upgrade our heals then look into tweaking our heal spells to give heal like effects or other abilities for a short duration. Even the dev quote where they said they'lll make our heals more powerful but at a much lower recast said that in the end we'll have even less HPS so we have a dev quote bascially saying that the fighter heal nerf didn't go far enough on pallys!Prayer of healing, Aid, Sacrament, Lay on Hands, Demonstration of Faith5 abilties, now rendered pretty much useless whilst tanking or have had their use sevearly limited, aid sacrament and prayer have all been removed from most pallys hotbars - we have entire AA LINES dedicated to our heals and now completly useless. it NEEDS to be looked at... and if like SoE said we're not gonan get better healing abilities and they are gonan reduce it even further then my suggestion is remove heals from the equation make our heals into other abilities which have secondary effects which CAN scale to raid level... or simply remove them altogether... at this moment in time I'm thinking of /petitioing to get all pally heals removed completly just to shut you up.

Soul_Dreamer

11-17-2010, 04:12 PM

Not really, if you currently have a 3k heal on a 10 second timer, that's 18k in base heals per min.IF you got given a 15k heal on a 1 min timer the HPS may be lower but the heal itself is more useful at handleing spike damage.Same goes for the ward, currently you say its:Demonstration of FaithPower: 188Casting : 1.38sRecast: 13.2sDuration: 24sWards target against 4594 points of all damageIf that was changed to:Power: 188Casting : 1.38sRecast: 25 secondsDuration: 24sWards target against 12000 points of all damage<div>You now don't have to spam it, it becomes useful against spike damage but your HP has gone down.</div><div></div><div>This is what they were meaning I think, NOT giving you every ability a Guardian has!</div><div></div><div></div><div>*Edit*</div><div>Boli, you in Ascend on RE server? </div>

Boli32

11-18-2010, 06:48 AM

<cite>oul_Dreamer wrote:</cite><blockquote>Not really, if you currently have a 3k heal on a 10 second timer, that's 18k in base heals per min.IF you got given a 15k heal on a 1 min timer the HPS may be lower but the heal itself is more useful at handleing spike damage.Same goes for the ward, currently you say its:Demonstration of FaithPower: 188Casting : 1.38sRecast: 13.2sDuration: 24sWards target against 4594 points of all damageIf that was changed to:Power: 188Casting : 1.38sRecast: 25 secondsDuration: 24sWards target against 12000 points of all damage<div>You now don't have to spam it, it becomes useful against spike damage but your HP has gone down.</div><div></div><div>This is what they were meaning I think, NOT giving you every ability a Guardian has!</div><div></div><div></div><div>*Edit*</div><div>Boli, you in Ascend on RE server? </div></blockquote>Even with a large ward we *still* have to take the damage in order to heal it; and perhaps more importantly scale the ward up enough to TAKE the hits... 12-15k ward will for the most part be ALL that is needed to heal you on herioc pulls cycle Stonewall into that as well as our oither heals and you're going to skew the entire thing up even further.I'm not saying that pallys shouldn't have heals but we need better scaling methods than simply ramping the numbers up as you pointed out the HPS will be lower from a spamming point of view... but the ward right now cannot be spammed much at all dure I cycle it regually as possible but thanks to interupts the only really reliable way to cast it is pre pull; this is doubly true in instances where we have dozens of mobs on us and all we can do is hit our AoEs a few times and then its all dead... and even our spell AoEs are interupted like crazy as well.The easiest and best ways to scale up abilities without actually adding numbers to them is simply to add additional effects on them instead so you're part casting it for the effect in raid.Doing what you said by changing the ward into 12-15k but increasing the recast may "look" fairer... but seriously... in 2 months time if they change it now the same few posters will be back on these paladin boards asking for a nerf as with the ability to precast you're looking at a MUCH higher share of the heal parse on short fast herioc kills.Scaling for the heals has got to be done another way and not just alter the numbers itself.And yes, that's me.

Soul_Dreamer

11-18-2010, 02:59 PM

Possibly an easier way, rather than adding a crap load of abilities to them would be to make some of the heals reacties proportional to the amount of damage that hit you. A similar mechanic is in game with the Zerker Myth that adds 25% of all damage received as hate. If some heals where changed to heal for 25/30/40/50 whatever of the % damage received then it would work, along with a larger ward to initially absorb some of the AOE's. Gonna be directly in competition with your guild soon then Boli, the one I lead/raid lead/mt for is almost identical to yours but on Splitpaw <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Boli32

11-18-2010, 03:10 PM

Cept I'm better <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />We already have a similar buff, 10% of all incoming damage is healed.... which when parsed works out to be not even close to 1% of our incoming damage never mind 10%.Perhaps changing say our singlre heal to longer recast and its a SMALL HoT but if we are hit for over 50% of our health it triggers a much larger health. Either way we cannot continue as they are now.. or were before it just isn't feasible.

Soul_Dreamer

11-18-2010, 07:53 PM

Killed construct yet? <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />They need to do something constructive with heals or you'll always end up with the problem of them being useful in one area and either underpowered or overpowered in others. A while ago with them critting and with crit bonus and potency applied they where OP in heroic/solo but actually useful in Epic content. That's been reversed with the lack of crits, this will ALWAYS be the case with Paladin direct heals if they stay the way they are. You just can't win either way, there isn't a way to balance them across play styles.So either: Heals for 1k<ul><li>If target is solo</li></ul><div> Heals for 3k</div><div><ul><li>If target is heroic</li></ul><div> Heals for 7k</div><div><ul><li>If target is Epic</li></ul></div><div>On a 20 second timer.</div></div><div></div><div>OR</div><div>On spell cast this spell will heal for 50% of damage received, 10 charges, 1 second cast. 10 Second recast.</div><div></div><div></div><div>I seriously think though giving you stoneskins/Mit increases and other abilities that are traditionally Warrior abilities will further blur the lines between classes and OP the Paladin class though.</div>

Jeal

11-18-2010, 11:35 PM

amazing trollage guards.. well done great job guys you really show off your class! i mean at least read boli's posts

Boli32

11-19-2010, 06:06 AM

<cite>Soul_Dreamer wrote:</cite><blockquote>Killed construct yet? <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" />They need to do something constructive with heals or you'll always end up with the problem of them being useful in one area and either underpowered or overpowered in others. A while ago with them critting and with crit bonus and potency applied they where OP in heroic/solo but actually useful in Epic content. That's been reversed with the lack of crits, this will ALWAYS be the case with Paladin direct heals if they stay the way they are. You just can't win either way, there isn't a way to balance them across play styles.So either: Heals for 1k<ul><li>If target is solo</li></ul><div> Heals for 3k</div><div><ul><li>If target is heroic</li></ul><div> Heals for 7k</div><div><ul><li>If target is Epic</li></ul></div><div>On a 20 second timer.</div></div><div></div><div>OR</div><div>On spell cast this spell will heal for 50% of damage received, 10 charges, 1 second cast. 10 Second recast.</div><div></div><div></div><div>I seriously think though giving you stoneskins/Mit increases and other abilities that are traditionally Warrior abilities will further blur the lines between classes and OP the Paladin class though.</div></blockquote>And what will give heals to zerkers/SKs do?... with the Stonewill items guards already come pretty close to the same amount of heals as pallys... so you are allowed to heal but we are not allowed to gain short term mit buffs or other immunities to compensate for our VASTLY reduced healing abilityThe only way you could alter it to give differing healing on the class of mob you are fighting will be to have reactive heal triggers on the mob itself which will either<ul><li>make it stupidly OPed (mob heals raid on next attack)</li><li>needless complex (I cast my heal but nothign happened why did it heal our brigand? </li><li>be a nightmare for parsing programs (inquisition remember?)</li></ul>The 10 trigger 50% of damage can be rendered entirely useless (reactive damage procs + wards) and neither does it scale - unless you want to start off at 10% incoming damage at level 23 plus a 10s duration 10s recast will push pallys even further into possible OPed territory (being able to heal 50% of all incomiung attacks?) but also MASSIVELY increasing the spam needed... casting the same spell every 7-8sAs I continually keep pointing out... unless you've actually played a pally regually in raids you have no real concept on how our heals actually work... or do not work in our case - we want to move away from having to constantlly cats our heals to actually make them do anything pallys heals should<ol><li>be on longer recasts</li><li>be uninteruptable/instant</li><li>Either be significantly more powerful OR have long durations of limited healing but more a buffing aspect</li></ol>Other tanks have defensive abilities/buffs... but none has to constantly cast/recast continually with interuptions move slightly and restart casting which become increasingly difficult to even use never mind that they don;t actually do anything these days.Pallys have 5 healsLay on Hands - should be an emergancy "oh [Removed for Content]" momement ideally changed so its not possible to waste it right now even the with fastest reactions in the world instant cast speed you can still cast it and it either heals for 0-minisule damage or esp if the mob is rooted randomly heal another member of the raid.Aid - this should be our primary healing power; as suggested a small HoT with a single trigger to cast a large heal when a damage threshold is passed seems an ideal alternativeDemonstration of Faith - Currently a ward would give more benefit and sense to have it as a tempbuff rather than constantly trying to scale up the healing depending on fight or AAs and makign it useless or OPed depending on which way you swing it in Solo/Groups/Raids.Sacrement - Currently a large heal on a long cast timer and reuse. This should be more a "oooh b4gger" short term temp buff which helps reduce incoming damage but not stop it.Prayer of Healing - Currently a group heal.. this shodul be more along the lines of a short term buff with a longer recast which helps protect the group from AoEs.We also have a few healing AA choices which need to be consideredCrusader : Legionarie's mercyCrusader: Legionaries FocusBoth completely useless for SKs and should be changed to be more crusader friendly rather than pally only; you could honestly drop the heal % increase from Mercy the increase it gives is laughable and the only people who benefited from it was SKs when reaver coudl be increased.Crusader's FaithHow is right that out of all the classes crusaders are the only ones where our endline in our "class" tree is pretty much not required and rarely specced into. If this was changed into a DoT with even a small HoT or a ward trigger chance... for 4 AAs the amount of benefit it gives is either zero due to<ul><li>Wards - can't heal what damage you do not take</li><li>Tank group - if you group is doing less damage then when you need it most the heal given is corespondily less</li><li>Stuns/KBs/Status effect - most of the time you will need this emergancy heal is if you/your group is unable to keep you alive which is kind of reversing where you gain the most benefit from (you need to DPS to trigegr the heal)</li><li>Can be stupidly Overpowered at times - put in a full DPS group tanking a mob you shouldn't and the heals given are massive.</li></ul>In short... Mercy and Focus are complete pally abilities (and not very good ones at that) and Crusader's Faith is more an SK ability... something which woudl have made a long more sense on the endline of the SK tree rather than the crusader tree.Arch Heal - the heal it gives is laughable, more power, slower to cast, worse reuse and doesn;t heal as much as the standard "heal" given to all pallys at earlier levels. This shoudl be altered to improve the healing ability of the pally in general or its healing power significantly increased. the 16% potency from crusader tree seems like a good replacement here.Devs: You have to really start from the ground up and realise what a pallys place in our guilds is all about and reorgnise our eventire defensive spell list to realise this. quick "fixes" do nothing except show you have no real understanding of the class as a whole and we are eager to try and assist you in this reguard.If you do not want us healign so much but throw items aroun with abilities which heal for more than our current spell list it sends the wrong message.We are a tank that heals.... but we cannot do any real degree.- Inncidentally thanks to SoE Runnyeye has been unplayable for a couple of days <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" />... and I'm still better <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" />

Soul_Dreamer

11-19-2010, 06:56 AM

There are +Mit buffs on almost every piece of defensive gear, there are stoneskin procs out there (not this expansion that I've seen though), EVERY fighter class can even get the Guardian mythical buff. Not sure if you've noticed but I've been comparing to Guardians the whole time, since we're the other defensive tank. We have zero healing capability, the only heal we do have is our deathsave on a long recast. I don't care what the other plate tanks have, I don't see them asking for more defense/offense recently. I do however see Paladins asking for yet more things to have over Guardians.In other Threads Paladins/Zerks/SKs have said how good stoneskins are and how much damage a Guardian can avoid with them and how it makes us the best defensive tank.. and yet in this thread Paladins are asking for them and not willing to give anything up for it!There are ways to fix your heals without OPing them in areas, concentrate on that sicne that's what Xelgad said he'd be doing, rather than taking every ability the other plate tanks have.A Large reactive of a 50% heal will pop you back up to high health after an AOE, stopping the random DA's after them from killing you. True a lot of the time it won't heal for much, but the times you need it to heal for a decent amount it will do, this is the same for stoneskins. Most of them time my stoneskins absorb crappy little amounts of damage, but the times I need them to take the big hits they can be more or less relied upon.Group AOE avoidance Guardians recently asked for and we where refused it because it was un-balanced. Instead we can AOE avoid fighters only, why should Paladins suddenly get it?

Boli32

11-19-2010, 08:38 AM

A 50% heal is a lot different to a heal 50% worth of incoming damage.. a LOT different; currently as it stands our "big heal" rarely heals us for more than 30% damage.Currently the issue is.. and has been since the massive nerf is our healing ability has dropped so much that gear procs completly overwrite our own healing potential and whilst guards hasve no incombat heals with the gear you heal for close to what a pally does. SKs and Zerkers with their own (working) heals heal for more. You may not consider 400-500hps much at all... but when you consider that pallys now are hitting 700-800 hps in raids the prospect is laughable given the amount of incoming damage experianced by tanks.So claiming that we are only after your abilities and guardian abilities shoudl be sacred is a complete falicy as to be quite frank our core abilities have been shipped out to every tank... including yourself with your 15% transfer... about as useful as ours is in raids these days as you are no doubt finding out <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />To be quite frank... pallys have *never* asked for DPS or more damage... LC is a "flavour of the expansion" and I doubt the damage portion will remain once the new expansion goes live. Herrectics shodul have *never* been given to a pally... pallys got a DPS buff as our endline.. the other 3 plate tanks got a defensive ability... how screwed up is that?what Xeladude said was increase recasts increase power of heals... so less spam more active healing which works in raids.however as it stands this is "helpful" but our heals will still be more of a gimic than actually assiting us in dealing with incoming damage. Not only that the heal spikes a pally willbe able to generate will be called in for major nerfing in short order if you want them to be effective on raids.And if you don;t want us to heal as much as we do the *only* way to scale healing power into raids without making it Oped in Herioc/Solo is to consider alternatives:- longer duraitons- longer recasts- buffs/small heals over large directs heals- Stoneskin like "effects such as large reactive heals <----- that will be the best option for all pallys... you get to kepe yoru precious stoneskins (of which all tanks receive apart from pallys fyi!) and we get to keep our healing.

Boethius_Permafrost

11-19-2010, 03:55 PM

Not willing to give anything up? Except for our entire suite of defensive spells and matching aa abilities to enhance them, of course.

Soul_Dreamer

11-19-2010, 08:21 PM

F**kit, I honestly can't be bothered, if you guys think it's balanced to have all these stoneskins/reductions/massive hots slapped onto your heals, then fine, keep asking for them.The ONLY thing a Guardian does better than other tanks is their capability of handling predictable spike damage, asking for the same for Paladins while keeping your superior DPS/Hate and not loosing anything in any other area is asking to be OP and I'm relatively sure it will never happen, your best bet is to get the heals fixed in a way they are useful without picking and choosing abilities from other tanks as it suites you.things like:<ul><li>A 15k+ Ward on a 50sec/1 min timer.</li><li>Large reactive heals on large timers.</li><li>Heals that heal for a % Damage taken.</li><li>Heals that heal for a % of your health.</li></ul>Are more likely to actually be put in game. If you honestly think SOE is going to change the way the whole Paladin class works when they are incapable of fixing the majority of bugs then you're obviously playing a different game.Ohh and the cheapening of Paladin abilities with Stonewill? EVERY Tank can get the reactive hate Guardians used to be the only ones capable of with "Hold the Line" now because of UM procs. EVERY Tank can get Guardian like Mitigation with the current gear. Gear has, and always will effect the potential of some classes/abilities while cheapening others, and it will continue to do so from expansion to expansion.

Boli32

11-19-2010, 10:59 PM

<cite>Soul_Dreamer wrote:</cite><blockquote>things like:<ul><li>A 15k+ Ward on a 50sec/1 min timer. too OPed</li><li>Large reactive heals on large timers. unless its a single trigger and min health requirement too OPed</li><li>Heals that heal for a % Damage taken. We already have one; the amount healed is minimal at best</li><li>Heals that heal for a % of your health. Zerkers have that... 10% heal on hit... too OPed.</li></ul></blockquote>We're not asking for OPed.. .we're asking for when we click our heal buttons it does more than reduce our power bar; massviely increasing heals reguardless of recast will not do anythgin excepot for subject ourselves to new nerfs.As it stands right now we want our heals to HEAL us when we cast them; our heals are a DIRECT heal say 3.7kPaladin takes damage and we cast the heal... one of many things happen:<ul><li>Heal is interupted, and recast too late</li><li>Heal is cast, but healers get their first, heals for 0</li><li>Heal is cast, but interupted, and interupted, Healers take care of it</li><li>Heal is cast but Stun/interupt effect occurs pally is not able to ontinue casting</li><li>Heal is started ot cast... pally dies.</li></ul>base cast time is 1.5 base recast is 8s.... put two pallys side by side, one tanking one not the pally tanking could still be trying to cast whlist the second has cast and gotten it back on recast. This ability is one of our standard core abilities which is there so pallys can heal.This ability annot be used whilst tanking... so lets look at the actual numbers and playcurrent1.5s cast8s recast3.7k healProposed1.5s cast80s recast20s durationif Paladin is hit for over 50% of their max health* Heal caster for 3,700The second one heals 10x less than the first, but is 10x more useful in a tanking role.Bare in mind that heals mean we still actually have to TAKE the damage in the first place... a 50k nuke will just be turned into a 50k-3.7k damage nuke or 46k damage and a high chance we will die from it.A stoneskin means 50k is reduced to 0k and survive.We're asking for our HEALS to be sorted, looked at and tweated so they are USEFUL... not to be overpowered.. but so they can ASSIST us in our tanking ability.. not replace it or other tanks with "ubbah abilities"; we already HAVE these abilities... its just getting to use them without the above problems presenting each other means we spend too much time casting and a lot of luck.

Jeal

11-19-2010, 11:57 PM

all i want is for my heals to not be scaled to heroic content.... its getting ridiculous... btw there aren't your stoneskins are 99% less effective debuffs that names have but there are heal ones... also i would like for guards typically ones that aren't killing anything worth mentioning to possibly tone their loudness down a bit :/

Soul_Dreamer

11-20-2010, 08:30 AM

<cite>Jeal@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote>all i want is for my heals to not be scaled to heroic content.... its getting ridiculous... btw there aren't your stoneskins are 99% less effective debuffs that names have but there are heal ones... also i would like for guards typically ones that aren't killing anything worth mentioning to possibly tone their loudness down a bit :/</blockquote>So because the guild I've lead for 5 years isn't killing Wing 3 of UD or 4 Rune Theer my opinion isn't valid? Does that include everyone else as well, surely if a Paladin isn't killing these mobs they don't know what they need either (By your logic)?The balance must really change between the tanks for those 8 mobs, it's a shame you've tanked and killed them all with your current ability set. Kinda shows that it is possible you just want it easier, no?

Landiin

11-20-2010, 07:22 PM

<cite>Soul_Dreamer wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Jeal@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote>all i want is for my heals to not be scaled to heroic content.... its getting ridiculous... btw there aren't your stoneskins are 99% less effective debuffs that names have but there are heal ones... also i would like for guards typically ones that aren't killing anything worth mentioning to possibly tone their loudness down a bit :/</blockquote>So because the guild I've lead for 5 years isn't killing Wing 3 of UD or 4 Rune Theer my opinion isn't valid? Does that include everyone else as well, surely if a Paladin isn't killing these mobs they don't know what they need either (By your logic)?The balance must really change between the tanks for those 8 mobs, it's a shame you've tanked and killed them all with your current ability set. Kinda shows that it is possible you just want it easier, no?</blockquote>Don't let Jeal bother you he only has his spot because of his class and his relation to the leader(s). But obviously he has to have some what of a clue I would think but by some of his post IDK.The truth is the people most likely to know the a class the best is the person that isn't in the perfect guild to have the perfect group makeup. These people have to know how to get every bit out of their classes.

Soul_Dreamer

11-20-2010, 09:55 PM

<cite>Toranx@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Soul_Dreamer wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Jeal@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote>all i want is for my heals to not be scaled to heroic content.... its getting ridiculous... btw there aren't your stoneskins are 99% less effective debuffs that names have but there are heal ones... also i would like for guards typically ones that aren't killing anything worth mentioning to possibly tone their loudness down a bit :/</blockquote>So because the guild I've lead for 5 years isn't killing Wing 3 of UD or 4 Rune Theer my opinion isn't valid? Does that include everyone else as well, surely if a Paladin isn't killing these mobs they don't know what they need either (By your logic)?The balance must really change between the tanks for those 8 mobs, it's a shame you've tanked and killed them all with your current ability set. Kinda shows that it is possible you just want it easier, no?</blockquote>Don't let Jeal bother you he only has his spot because of his class and his relation to the leader(s). But obviously he has to have some what of a clue I would think but by some of his post IDK.The truth is the people most likely to know the a class the best is the person that isn't in the perfect guild to have the perfect group makeup. These people have to know how to get every bit out of their classes.</blockquote>He doesn't bother me and I've never said he doesn't know how to play his class, unlike him I'm not making assumptions about people I know nothing about. Just his logic of who gets to have an opinion and who doesn't is utter BS, he's just showing how flawed this whole argument is.<ul><li>Can a Paladin successfully tank and kill ALL content in game? Yes.</li><li>Does a Paladin do this with substantially more Hate and DPS than the other defensive tank? Yes.</li><li>Does a Paladin have a better ability set for Heroic content than the other defensive tank? Yes.</li><li>Does a Paladin have a better ability set for Solo content than the other defensive tank? Yes.</li><li>Does a Paladin have a decent ability set for raid content across tanking roles?Yes.</li><li>Does this show Paladins needs more defensive abilities, or substantial increases to the abilities they have?NO!</li></ul><div></div><div></div>

Boli32

11-21-2010, 01:39 PM

<cite>Soul_Dreamer wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Toranx@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Soul_Dreamer wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Jeal@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote>all i want is for my heals to not be scaled to heroic content.... its getting ridiculous... btw there aren't your stoneskins are 99% less effective debuffs that names have but there are heal ones... also i would like for guards typically ones that aren't killing anything worth mentioning to possibly tone their loudness down a bit :/</blockquote>So because the guild I've lead for 5 years isn't killing Wing 3 of UD or 4 Rune Theer my opinion isn't valid? Does that include everyone else as well, surely if a Paladin isn't killing these mobs they don't know what they need either (By your logic)?The balance must really change between the tanks for those 8 mobs, it's a shame you've tanked and killed them all with your current ability set. Kinda shows that it is possible you just want it easier, no?</blockquote>Don't let Jeal bother you he only has his spot because of his class and his relation to the leader(s). But obviously he has to have some what of a clue I would think but by some of his post IDK.The truth is the people most likely to know the a class the best is the person that isn't in the perfect guild to have the perfect group makeup. These people have to know how to get every bit out of their classes.</blockquote>He doesn't bother me and I've never said he doesn't know how to play his class, unlike him I'm not making assumptions about people I know nothing about. Just his logic of who gets to have an opinion and who doesn't is utter BS, he's just showing how flawed this whole argument is.</blockquote><ul><li>Can a Paladin successfully tank and kill ALL content in game? Yes.</li><li>Can every other tank? Yes!</li><li>Does a Paladin do this with substantially more Hate and DPS than the other defensive tank? Yes.</li><li>Full def gear this is an outright lie; unless one of two things are happening "AoE content" or Massive Spell damage; when a pally really needs to survive the differance in hate/dps is minimal at best. </li><li>Does a Paladin have a better ability set for Heroic content than the other defensive tank? Yes.</li><li>Last I cheked guards has an ability to improve their hate gain, reduce the entire groups hate gain and also have a hate transfer... if you can;t tank herioc stuff then quite frankly u suck</li><li>Does a Paladin have a better ability set for Solo content than the other defensive tank? Yes.</li><li>Can Guardians still solo decently with ward/heal proc gear on YES!</li><li>this discussion has never been about soling... the other tanks have an easier time of it than pallys... yes we can solo some decent stuff but 90% of our heals (stonewill) are onex you can gain yourself.. and if anything its not exactly "fast"... 20-30min kills with a single mistake causing death.</li><li>Does a Paladin have a decent ability set for raid content across tanking roles?Yes.</li><li>Can other tanks both OT and MT? YES!</li><li>Does this show Paladins needs more defensive abilities, or substantial increases to the abilities they have?NO!</li><li>Can Pallys USE all the abilities they have been given to tank NO!</li></ul>The point is we *have* the defensive abilities... our heals... just they are... you know... useless. If stoneskins were reduced to only prevent 20% of the incoming damage instead of 100% you'll soon see what we have to deal with EVERY DAY and you'll stop your moaning.We have our heals balanced to solo (they have a HUGE power cost and tbh untill you're level 80+ and have the right gear that issue never goes away.They can be interupted consistantly; the more mobs and the harder the content.. in fact the more you NEED to use them the less you are able to use themand they heal for a pathetic amount.We want our heals to be ADJUSTED... so they are valid from solo > raid rather than being usless in all 3. Remember taunts how they used not to be able to crit etc.... and how useless they were and "not with bothign with"... well... that is how our heals are now again.