I remember when I tried eq2 before conjurers could offer a bit to groups, still true?

[jay777]

<p>I alted a mage in eq1 loved it, but when I tried this game before I did not like the pets but I know they changed since then, and people where saying they offered a bit of utility for groups and consistent dps, and conjurers where a versatile fun class to play.</p><p>So what is the current state of the conjurer?</p>

[Rhadamanth]

<p>They have this really OP AA ability called Elemental Blast.  They can do some pretty insane DPS because of it.  They offer utility, but I don't think any group actually needs a conjuror specifically.  They are quite versatile, however, and so they are fun to play.</p>

[Xalmat]

<p>Right now, Conjurors are a high-octane DPS class with a few useful utility spells and AAs such as Elemental Toxicity and Runes of Geoticism. However like all classes in this game, you don't reach your full potential until you approach the level cap, get a few key pieces of gear (like your epic), and have a large number of AAs under your belt.</p><p>Whenever it was that you last played EQ2, Conjurors nowadays are nothing like they were when you played them; they are in fact in the best shape they've been in since release.</p>

[mykei]

<p>if you max everything you will almost be asked to group. this means you need highend gear and all your aa's. the gear is hard to come by if you dont have a support guild or group that is willing to help you. conjurors solo nicely and can level 0-90 solo. after this last expansion the necro is really more of a useful class for groups, their dps is better and they offer more useful buffs... if you really want to be useful play a healer or tank class, the average conjuror is not the high end dps as people will lead you to believe.</p>

[Xalmat]

<p><cite>mykei wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>if you max everything you will almost be asked to group. this means you need highend gear and all your aa's. the gear is hard to come by if you dont have a support guild or group that is willing to help you. conjurors solo nicely and can level 0-90 solo. after this last expansion the necro is really more of a useful class for groups, their dps is better and they offer more useful buffs... if you really want to be useful play a healer or tank class, the average conjuror is not the high end dps as people will lead you to believe.</p></blockquote><p>I disagree, at least as far as the most recent game update goes. There is a plethora of extremely powerful summoner gear now available to your average casual Conjuror from instances and battlegrounds. Compared to equally geared sorcerers or other DPS classes, we're on-par with what they can do</p>

[Banditman]

<p>I'm awfully curious about all these buffs that Necros get that are so useful to a group.  Do tell.</p>

[mykei]

<p>conjuror like any other eq2 class can be fun to play. if you define fun as being needed and get groups as you log in then you maybe out of luck there. conjuror fun factor is high for people that like to solo or have a guild that only has a few conjurors (you will almost never see more than one conjuror at any given raid). we can solo well and have nice dps if you get your spell sequence down with the right gear. BGs are fun if you like pvp EQ style and the gear is very nice, but the best gear is had from raids and groups (crafted also). they have fixed the conjuror but it is not the end-all class.</p><p>i was joking about the necro's!</p>

[jay777]

<p>I am not seeing any facts here how conjurers are not needed or wanted in groups, even the guides ive read say it is silly to say it is a solo class because it can do both and offer groups some unique things. Now if it is anything I learned in mmorpgs most pet classes do offer something, anyways your just telling me they can solo and not needed in groups which does not tell me much, I appreciate the effort but id rather get someones experience not a biased opinion thank you.</p>

[Xalmat]

<p>Like I said jay777, Conjurors are a force to be reckoned with. We're solid soloers, solid single target DPS, solid AoE DPS, solid DPS on raids. Everything about the class is solid, except for our utility being fairly light until you get Elemental Toxicity and Runes of Geoticism, but our DPS more than makes up for it.</p><p>And this is coming from a Conjuror that has been playing the game since before release.</p><p>Unfortunately the thing holding this class back is player perception. There are a LOT of terrible Conjurors out there that make the class look bad, whereas in the hands of a skilled player the class shines.</p>

[jay777]

<p>I see, thank you I am glad to hear it. As I am not a big dps junkie I thought maybe our pets could offer things to the group maybe off healing or and off tanking with earth pet or something, or even debuffs even a snare is a debuff.</p>

[Banditman]

<p>If you aren't a DPS junkie, this is probably not the class for you.  This class is, at it's core, a DPS class with a touch of utility.  I don't want to short sell our utility, some of it is quite nice, but in the end, if you aren't getting into Conjuror because you want to be a DPS class, you are probably getting into the wrong class.</p>

[Xalmat]

<p><cite>Banditman wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>If you aren't a DPS junkie, this is probably not the class for you.  This class is, at it's core, a DPS class with a touch of utility.  I don't want to short sell our utility, some of it is quite nice, but in the end, if you aren't getting into Conjuror because you want to be a DPS class, you are probably getting into the wrong class.</p></blockquote><p>Agreed. If you want utility and not DPS, you're better off playing an enchanter, bard, or healer.</p><p>Conjurors do have crowd control abilities (root, snare, short stun, short aoe daze, and our pet can off-tank mobs if they aren't too powerful), but they are very limited. In all practicality crowd control is <em>rarely</em> used these days.</p>

[jay777]

<p>I never said I do not enjoy dps or could not im just not a dps junkie which means I do not have to have dps or feel insecure without high dps, low dps meh but I am happy with moderate, and if anything wizards are high dps not conjurers, conjurers are consistent dps.</p>

[Xalmat]

<p>Not trying to pick on you, but as a Conjuror it's your job to put out as much DPS as you quite possibly can. Again, Conjurors <em>are</em> a high-DPS class. We can often go toe-to-toe with Wizards, if not outright surpass them.</p><p>If you're <em>not </em>insecure without high DPS, then this is not the class for you.</p>

[jay777]

<p>How do you know? Do you even know me in real life? You do not know if im enjoying it or not, maybe you did not read but I enjoyed mages in eq1 and they had dps like they do now, again I never said I do not enjoy dps classes and I am pretty sure it is a matter of opinion that conjurers are out dpsing wizards outright as you say when conjurers do not rely on burst dps that makes no sense, now in longer fights it would since conjurers do consistent dps.</p><p>Anyways please just refrain from assuming the class is not for me your opinion is noted thank you.</p>

[Alfeo]

<p>I think what people are trying to tell you Jay, is theres alot of misconceptions about the summoner classes. Particularly based on how people sometimes play them. For RoK and TSO especially the classes weren't considered good because most didn't know what they could bring and they ended up being regarded as some sort of discount sorcerer that had no business in a raid. This wasn't entirely true, both classes could still put out some numbers through alot of hard work but our utility was pretty much negligable and those numbers if you could get them were all you had. Now we have a little more utility, but most min/maxers consider our stuff to be optional. Nice to have but not necessary. Thus its the same as RoK/TSO in a way, if we bring anything its DPS. Our utility is very much a secondary role and considered of minor importance compared to our dps.</p><p>Now if you only group/solo and never want to raid then you can do what you like and only a few people would give you a hard time about it. But if you try to play conjuror as a utility class and don't worry about maxing dps then no serious raiding guild is gonna give you the time of day. If you are okay with this then so be it but thats just how it stands. If you want to raid and play a class that has beloved vital utility and less an emphasis on parsing, you want to play an enchanter. (though dps is so important in today's raids im sure many chanters would also balk if I said dps was less important for them =P) But you can get away with that definitely more than being a "Utility" summoner.</p><p>Edit:</p><p>Summoners btw are very much close to sorcerors right now parse wise given the same buffs. If you don't believe that then fine, go look over some parse threads if you don't want to take the word of some actual raiding summoners :/</p><p>Also, the main thing I wanted to say, is not to discourage you but to make it clear, if you are intending to play a conjuror. You are playing a dps class above anything else.</p>

[jay777]

<p>I think I am smart enough to not play a conjurer as a main utility role, I never gave that impression once, I asked if we had any utility not if we where mainly utility, and to be honest id rather take advice from people who have fun with there classes and not feel the need to constantly power game and build them how they want.</p>

[Alfeo]

<p><cite>jay777 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I think I am smart enough to not play a conjurer as a main utility role, I never gave that impression once, I asked if we had any utility not if we where mainly utility, and to be honest id rather take advice from people who have fun with there classes and not feel the need to constantly power game and build them how they want.</p></blockquote><p>Well then there was a misunderstanding at some point. Cause based on the conversation I thought you were looking for a more utility role but I apologize for misreading that. Well I guess that would answer your question anyways, conjurors are definitely a minor utility role still compared to the real utility power houses of coercer/illusionist. We are 100% a DPS class in non-solo situations.</p><p>As far as utility we have goes though, elemental toxicity is probably our most unique/appreciated ability (Necros have this too). it helps your group do alot of damage in an encounter fight and helps mobs keep off squishies so its really quite nice. Just be warned if you use it with your mage pet as a tank in solo that the pet can proc it enough to get the mobs to run to you if you aren't chain casting yourself.</p><p>And I'd also like to point out that I do have alot of fun with my class and I'm pretty sure most of the people who post in this forum do too. You just have to understand the class has been through a ton the past two expansions with people in general considering the class to be crap so sometimes its easy to get defensive because some of us have been defending the viability of this class in raids now for a long while. Hell even now, some guilds still don't like summoners even though theres no reason at all to be anti summoner at this point on a basis of thinking they dont contribute enough to a raid. Though thats a minority opinion, its still around.</p>

[jay777]

<p>Thank you for being so patient and kind to me, I was expecting something defensive but you stepped up I respect that again thank you.</p><p>I think I will enjoy it although I noticed from the spell list that there was not as many elemental attacks I was hoping for I do understand some of them come from pets though, I was hoping atleast some of the animations would change as you level. Still I might still enjoy it.</p>

[Xalmat]

<p><cite>jay777 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I think I will enjoy it although I noticed from the spell list that there was not as many elemental attacks I was hoping for I do understand some of them come from pets though, I was hoping atleast some of the animations would change as you level. Still I might still enjoy it.</p></blockquote><p>There's definitely more elemental attacks than the spell list has you believe.</p><p>Fiery Magician - Fire elemental pet. Casts almost completely Heat damage.Aery Hunter - Air elemental pet. Its combat arts are almost completely Cold damage.Fiery Annihilation - Heat damageIce Storm - Cold damageWinds of Velious - Cold damageBlazing Avatar - Heat damageElemental Unity - Heat and Cold damageElemental Toxicity - Heat and Disease damage (only deals Disease damage because Necros get this AA too).Elemental Blast - Heat damageRoaring Flames - Fire elemental swarm pets. Deals heat damage.Aqueous Swarm - Water elemental swarm pets. Deals cold damage.Hydromancer - Water elemental pet. Though its completely useless in practicality :/Fire Seed - Heat based buffFlameshield - Heat based damage shieldElemental Aspect - Elemental based defenses</p><p>You can also think of our magic damage spells as being <em>Earth</em> elemental damage. For game mechanics reasons its Magic damage, but our spells are definitely earthen in name:</p><p>Earthen Avatar - Earth elemental pet. Deals Magic (Earth) attacksCrystal Blast - Magic (Earth) damageShattered Earth - Magic (Earth) damageEarthquake - Magic (Earth) damagePetrify - Magic (Earth) attackQuicksand - Earthen root (quicksand = dirt)Geotic Rune - Earthen based defensesStoneskin - Earthen based defenses</p><p>And let's not forget that the Conjuror deity of choice is Solusek Ro, the Burning Prince.</p>

[jay777]

<p>Thanks this helps a bit, seems we get a nice variety there.</p>

[Banditman]

<p>What everyone is trying to do is correct your misconceptions about what a Conjuror is.  Xalmat has played a Conjuror since release.  I've played one since six months after release.  Between us we've probably got a pretty good idea of what a Conjuror is and what it isn't.</p><p>You are stating what you "think" a Conjuror is.  You're wrong.  A Conjuror is not "consistent" DPS.  A Conjuror is a high DPS class which requires a *lot* of knowledge and no small amount of skill to achieve it's maximum performance.</p><p>It sounds to me like you are attempting to justify a less than optimal performance by saying "I can always do it this well".  If you are looking to be just a solo and occasional group player, that's fine.  No one will pay much mind to a casual player who doesn't perform to the top of their class.  And frankly, for that kind of player, class selection is pretty much irrelevant.</p><p>On the other hand, if you intend to be a hardcore heroic grouper or a raider, that sort of thing won't fly.</p><p>The pet won't do the work for you, it actually makes your job harder.  You have to not only keep yourself alive, you have to keep your pet alive, in the proper position and pointed at the right target.  All while pushing your own DPS at the mob and maintaining proper positioning.</p><p>It's a rewarding class when played by a knowledgeable and skilled player.  In the hands of that kind of player, you'll never have trouble getting a spot in a raid.  On the other hand, there aren't really very many of those players.  There are a LOT of bad Conjurors out there who put up less than impressive DPS numbers but maintain that they are offering utility.  Those types quickly discover what everyone else already knows:  Conjurors are a DPS class with a bare touch of utility.  Your reputation will be based on your ability to generate face melting DPS.</p>

[jay777]

<p>Omg would you please relax? Are you an elitist or something? I know how to play dps/pet classes I garuntee I have been playing mmorpgs for a long time possibly longer then you, and I am sorry but wizards dps burst damage hits much harder in one spell while conjurers have many dots and dds to cast in one fight, the wizard is designed to be more burst dps then the conjurer this is why it is consistent it is easy to tell by looking at cast times and spell describtions, I never sa<em>id that this class takes no skill to play, I know how to play my casters and you really need to stop making assumptions about me it is very annoying.</em></p><p>Some classes run out of power faster this is why some classes are only able to do mass amounts of dps in short bursts while others do not run out and able to do it over long periods of times this is not that hard to understand, but maybe you have just been playing the class to long and are way to biased about your conjurer not to mention defensive it is just a freaken game anwyays.</p><p>I could be wrong but I am pretty sure soe would not allow 2 wizard classes not to mention there is probably enough wizards running around anyways.</p>

[Maamadex]

<p>And maybe you think this is like EQ1 and  carry miconceptions about what EQ2 was like when you played it heh. This game is nothing like it was or anything like its predecessor. Banditman and Xalmat offer good solid advice on the conjy class. Should listen to them. They aren't picking on you, just trying to understand where you are coming from. You are the one sounding defensive. Just relax heh.</p>

[jay777]

<p>I see it differantly and actually some classes are very similar to eq1, I am not carrying any misconsumptions I actually expected to be completely differant but it was not that much differant so far, and the last poster is not solid advice I garuntee if you put this in the wizards forum they would prove the numbers, he is just defensive of the conjurer class or an elitist, it is silly to think of conjurers as big numbers in one or two spells because I know for a fact that is not how they dps.</p>

[Xalmat]

<p><cite>Maamadex wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>And maybe you think this is like EQ1 and  carry miconceptions about what EQ2 was like when you played it heh. This game is nothing like it was or anything like its predecessor.</p></blockquote><p>Indeed, the comparisons happen a lot, and have happened ever since EQ2 was released. Which is why it's in the <a href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?topic_id=171441" target="_blank">stickied Conjuror FAQ</a>:</p><p><strong><span style="color: #ffff00;">Q. I just came over from EQLive after playing the Mage class, and ...</span></strong>I know exactly what you're going to say, and I'm stopping you right there.Repeat after me."This is not EQLive."It's true, Conjurors of EQ2 and Magicians of EQ1 have a lot of similarities. But both classes, and indeed both games, are so radically different from each other that a comparison is impossible. And to say that one class is gimped over the other because "X" spell is missing doesn't hold water either.Trust me, with this attitude, you'll be a lot happier.<strong></strong></p>

[jay777]

<p>If it makes sense to you that conjurers should do the same dps as a wizard then you should not be playing a conjurer, pet classes are not suppose to be the best dps while most should be around secondary or third there are other classes who actually deserve the high numbers espically considering wizards are harder and more boring to solo they need to be able to offer something more to the class like major group single target dps.</p>

[Maamadex]

<p>They can still approach and occasionally exceed the dps a wizard can put out. I've seen good conjy's do it. They should be played as a dps class cause they do excell at it.</p>

[Xalmat]

<p><cite>Maamadex wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>They should be played as a dps class cause they do excell at it.</p></blockquote><p>Conjurors <em>are</em> a DPS class. End of story.</p>

[Maamadex]

<p>Ok as a High dps class, <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" />. Thats what i meant. I also don't think its elitist when someone tells you how to get the most out of a class you are playing. Unless they are being insulting. Necros and Conjys both offer a ton of single target dps nowadays, they just achieve it differently than wizards. And this is mostly a recent phenomenon, with changes that happened with SF.</p>

[Disarm]

<p>Keep in mind the folks that are telling you conj are dps are also folks that are raiding hard and taking down some of the high end mobs.  If your in the same boat then you can get the gear that will allow you to do the dps they are talking about.  If your not getting access to that kind of gear, then your ability to dps might be a little less than you expect.   For what it matters, I find a lower gear sorc normally able to out dps a lower gear conj.  Its just easier to find the gear that will bump up a sorc, they can use the same gear a conj can as well as just straight mage gear.  A summoner needs mage gear that bumps up the pet as well as them selves.  That just my 2cents worth</p>

[jay777]

<p>It is the way they type it, I can easily recognize an elitist, I am not for sure he is but after playing as many mmos as I have you will develop a nice elitist meter.</p><p>Again never said conjurers did not dps well, amazing how many people do not actually read the post.</p>

[Xalmat]

<p>I give up on this thread.</p>

[Banditman]

<p><cite>Umik@Nagafen wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Keep in mind the folks that are telling you conj are dps are also folks that are raiding hard and taking down some of the high end mobs.  If your in the same boat then you can get the gear that will allow you to do the dps they are talking about.  If your not getting access to that kind of gear, then your ability to dps might be a little less than you expect.   For what it matters, I find a lower gear sorc normally able to out dps a lower gear conj.  Its just easier to find the gear that will bump up a sorc, they can use the same gear a conj can as well as just straight mage gear.  A summoner needs mage gear that bumps up the pet as well as them selves.  That just my 2cents worth</p></blockquote><p>Mostly those Conjurors who don't understand their class.</p><p>The problem 75% of the Conjurors I inspect have is that they simply don't understand the class is 75% about their pet.  They'll be wearing all kinds of gear that's GREAT for Sorcerer's or Enchanter's, but has no pet effect at all.  This is why a Conjuror can be beaten badly by a Sorcerer.</p><p>Heck, I'm one of the higher DPS'ing Conjurors on my server, and BOTH of my charms are still just LEGENDARY items.  I've seen most of the Fabled Mage charms in the game drop, short of RT4 and UDW3, and they are all remarkably terrible for a Summoner.</p><p>Itemization is tricky for a Summoner.  You have to understand the class well and know how to pick the item based on what it REALLY does for you, not what some silly Fabled/Legendary tag says.</p>

[jay777]

<p>Perhaps that is best for all of us xa.</p>

[Alfeo]

<p><cite>jay777 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>If it makes sense to you that conjurers should do the same dps as a wizard then you should not be playing a conjurer, pet classes are not suppose to be the best dps while most should be around secondary or third there are other classes who actually deserve the high numbers espically considering wizards are harder and more boring to solo they need to be able to offer something more to the class like major group single target dps.</p></blockquote><p>I very much disagree here on multiple counts.</p><p>1) Conjurors (as well as some other classes, Necromancers and Rogues) can get close to or surpass t1 dps depending on fights and available buffs. If you go to eq2flames and look at the parse threads for wizards and conjurors you can see how high people get. Rogues too btw can also parse pretty high and typically tend to have better utility to boot. You need to look at some parses and what the end of the game looks like cause it might not be what you think. Usually though, between the dps classes theres not gonna be a severe difference on average. Note I am talking a fully supported raid setting here, since this is the most competitive setting and the one where class balance is trickiest and people are most acutely aware of it. (Just to be clear, i wouldn't expect a wiz or a conj to win every fight if equally geared/skilled, but rather the fight to be determined by who has the better bard/chanter, luck (who gets more random disables because SoE loves those) and the kind of fight it is rather than one always beating the other.)</p><p>2) Having a pet in a raid is actually more often a detriment to your performance not a benefit. Your pet has a huge threat output, and there is no pet aggro meter and he is also squishier than you at a certain point in raid progression (unless necro with bloodpact). This is especially noticable once you are working on the more difficult content of this expansion (UD Hardmodes, Ark, etc). The pet also deals with geometry issues (LoS issues, Pathing Issues) that can cause it to be absolutely suicidal on some fights by it constantly trying to get too close to a mob with deadly aes (that are always going off mind you). Our utility is also considered alright but pretty negligable in the grand scheme of things.</p><p>3) If our DPS isn't close to a wizard, or the other higher dps classes there is simply no room for us in a raid. A conj who can't dps will never be used by any guild that is worth a [Removed for Content]. As it is, a common set up might be 4 tanks (many multi-tank encounters this expac), 8 healers, 4-6 bards (Double bard is incredible if you can do it, cause unlike summoners, bards have very powerful and valued utility. Victorious Concerto in particular, is game changing), 4 Enchanters or something close. There is only 24 slots in a raid. That leaves 2-4 slots for Wizards, Warlocks, Swashbucklers, Brigands, Assassins, Rangers, Necromancers and Conjurors. You can open a spot or two by getting rid of a healer from a dps group, but this can be shakey if you are dealing with a cure heavy, curse heavy fight like the harder ones tend to be. This is the reality of raids, where 2/3 of your entire raid force is Healers/Bards/Chanters leaving very few spots for other classes.</p><p>Lastly I just wanted to also remark about the solo comment. Honestly the whole, oh hey its easier to solo so you don't need to have a role in raids argument is old. Chanters have incredible solo and they are the most desired mage to have in a raid bar none. Not to mention that with the dps wizards and warlocks do and how good some of their defensive AA are (Did you know that a properlly speced wizard/warlock is almost indestructable in PvP? Which they can level with btw) I doubt they have any serious issues soloing anything either. Their kite tools are pretty powerful if they even had to use them to kill stuff easily.I'm not even going to go in depth about other archtypes in respect to this, talking about SKs in this context would be like shooting fish in a barrel.</p><p>I hope that sheds some light on the issue, I don't know what you know about the end game but this is what I know and I know it because of first hand experience in addition to talking to many many other conjurors/necromancers while I've been here. I've had many summoner friends who ended up playing utility despite being [Removed for Content] good at their class because their guild needed good utility over a good summoner. It's a common enough story to point to where its kinda sad to be honest. I hope though you can at least consider the view point I'm laying out here and not just dismiss it off hand as some sort of elitism. Cause I don't know how else to describe my experiences and what I've seen other people go through other than the above.</p>

[hellfire]

<p>Conj is a top end dps class with a little bit of utility.</p><p>If your views of being a conj is not being top end DPS then the class isnt for you.</p><p>Preety cut and dry.......Conjs are brought to a raid/group  for one thing and thats to dps.</p><p>If you cant grasp that  the class isnt for you.</p><p>No one cares how much MMOing you have done ...cause you will find others that have done more  and have done better.And you will find  people that have done less and are better.</p><p>So sorry if that sounds "elitist" but its relistic.</p>

[jay777]

<p>No you guys are just in denial because you want top dps yada yada yada, you have no right to tell me what is for me and what is not you are not god and you do not know what is best for me so back off dude.</p><p>Illys do not do high dps of course they can solo well they are mezzers, again I NEVER SAID CONJUERERS CANNOT DPS WHAT MUST I DO TO GET THIS THROUGH YOUR THICK SKULLS I HAVE SAID THIS ATLEAST 8 TIMES WHAT IS WRONG WITH YOU???????</p><p>I just know wizards in short fights will always out dps conjurers as long as gear and etc comes into play, and in longer fights conjurers out dps wizards its that simple folks. Send me the link if you want to prove me wrong otherwise I DO NOT BELIEVE YOU.</p><p>And you cannot justify an elitist attitude just stop lol.</p>

[Xalmat]

<p><cite>jay777 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote>I just know wizards in short fights will always out dps conjurers as long as gear and etc comes into play, and in longer fights conjurers out dps wizards its that simple folks. Send me the link if you want to prove me wrong otherwise I DO NOT BELIEVE YOU.</blockquote><p>Again, this just shows you do not know what you're talking about.</p><p>I've out-dps'd Wizards in short fights (sub 1 minute), and I've been out-dps'd by Wizards in longer fights (5 minutes and up). And we're talking Wizards who are comparably geared to me, and comparably skilled as me. It also depends on what your definition of short and long is, as well as what specific content you are doing, as some content heavily favors Conjurors, while other content might heavily favor Wizards.</p><p>You might want to look at <a href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?topic_id=489115" target="_blank">this parse</a> from the top end-game raid guild on a relatively short (under 1 minute) fight. This guild is the very best guild in the game, with the very best geared players in the game. Their top DPS in that fight is: a Conjuror named Solja. He beat out a Wizard, two Assassins, and a Swashbuckler, classes that <em>often</em> beat us out on the parse.</p><p>This is not atypical of end game Conjurors.</p><p>Conjurors <em>must</em> deal top end DPS to justify their spot on a raid. If they don't, then they are useless to the raid force.</p>

[Banditman]

<p><cite>jay777 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>No you guys are just in denial because you want top dps yada yada yada, you have no right to tell me what is for me and what is not you are not god and you do not know what is best for me so back off dude.</p><p><span style="color: #008000;">We don't "want" to be top DPS, we *are* top DPS.  We can compete with Sorcerers and Assassins.  Yes, they will usually beat us, but they can't slack or we will take them.</span></p><p>Illys do not do high dps of course they can solo well they are mezzers, again I NEVER SAID CONJUERERS CANNOT DPS WHAT MUST I DO TO GET THIS THROUGH YOUR THICK SKULLS I HAVE SAID THIS ATLEAST 8 TIMES WHAT IS WRONG WITH YOU???????</p><p><span style="color: #008000;">Illy's are terrible solo'ers.  Awful.  Right down there with Troubadors.  In fact, I'd say they are probably the worst solo'er of all the mage classes.</span></p><p>I just know wizards in short fights will always out dps conjurers as long as gear and etc comes into play, and in longer fights conjurers out dps wizards its that simple folks. Send me the link if you want to prove me wrong otherwise I DO NOT BELIEVE YOU.</p><p><span style="color: #008000;">What you believe is irrelevant.  Your experience is far too limited to offer the requisite cross section and depth of experience to make that judgement.  Many people here have attempted to offer you the benefit of their knowledge and you simply put your fingers in your ears and mumble "i dont believe you" over and over.</span></p><p>And you cannot justify an elitist attitude just stop lol.</p><p><span style="color: #008000;">So far, I haven't seen an elitist attitude on display here.  Merely more experienced players trying to convey what the true experience of playing a Conjuror entails.  You have some of the most experienced Conjurors in the game trying to guide you, yet you continue to tell them that you fail to believe the story their experiences have yielded.</span></p><p><span style="color: #008000;">Sounds like your problem exists somewhere in the vicinity of the mirror.</span></p></blockquote><p>Given an equally geared, skilled and buffed Wizard and Conjuror, I would grudgingly say that the Wizard is probably capable of generating more DPS over the long term.  It's not a great difference, but I would give the nod ever so slightly to the Wizard.</p><p>However, it's pretty rare that you have that situation.  Usually one player is more skilled, or one is better geared, or one is better buffed.  In those cases, you simply have to let the numbers tell the story.</p>

[JenoJeno]

<p><cite>Banditman wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>jay777 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>No you guys are just in denial because you want top dps yada yada yada, you have no right to tell me what is for me and what is not you are not god and you do not know what is best for me so back off dude.</p><p><span style="color: #008000;">We don't "want" to be top DPS, we *are* top DPS.  We can compete with Sorcerers and Assassins.  Yes, they will usually beat us, but they can't slack or we will take them.</span></p><p>Illys do not do high dps of course they can solo well they are mezzers, again I NEVER SAID CONJUERERS CANNOT DPS WHAT MUST I DO TO GET THIS THROUGH YOUR THICK SKULLS I HAVE SAID THIS ATLEAST 8 TIMES WHAT IS WRONG WITH YOU???????</p><p><span style="color: #008000;">Illy's are terrible solo'ers.  Awful.  Right down there with Troubadors.  In fact, I'd say they are probably the worst solo'er of all the mage classes.</span></p><p>I just know wizards in short fights will always out dps conjurers as long as gear and etc comes into play, and in longer fights conjurers out dps wizards its that simple folks. Send me the link if you want to prove me wrong otherwise I DO NOT BELIEVE YOU.</p><p><span style="color: #008000;">What you believe is irrelevant.  Your experience is far too limited to offer the requisite cross section and depth of experience to make that judgement.  Many people here have attempted to offer you the benefit of their knowledge and you simply put your fingers in your ears and mumble "i dont believe you" over and over.</span></p><p>And you cannot justify an elitist attitude just stop lol.</p><p><span style="color: #008000;">So far, I haven't seen an elitist attitude on display here.  Merely more experienced players trying to convey what the true experience of playing a Conjuror entails.  You have some of the most experienced Conjurors in the game trying to guide you, yet you continue to tell them that you fail to believe the story their experiences have yielded.</span></p><p><span style="color: #008000;">Sounds like your problem exists somewhere in the vicinity of the mirror.</span></p></blockquote><p>Given an equally geared, skilled and buffed Wizard and Conjuror, I would grudgingly say that the Wizard is probably capable of generating more DPS over the long term.  It's not a great difference, but I would give the nod ever so slightly to the Wizard.</p><p>However, it's pretty rare that you have that situation.  Usually one player is more skilled, or one is better geared, or one is better buffed.  In those cases, you simply have to let the numbers tell the story.</p></blockquote><p>Agreed with this, a good wizard and a good conj .. for a long fight the wizard will take the gold. shorter fights, not much of a chance (if equally stacked buffs / vc's etc).</p>

[hellfire]

<p><cite>jay777 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>No you guys are just in denial</p><p>And you cannot justify an elitist attitude just stop lol.</p></blockquote><p>Umm maybe its you that is in denial</p><p>Sure i can justify a elitist attitude...........specifically when i know im right and you are wrong.You actuallly believe since you have played MMOs for many years that no one can tell you any different..........Oh yeah about that denial thing are you catching on yet or is that being to elitist for you?</p>

[Xalmat]

<p>I've played MMOs for 10 years. Does that make me elitist, or just someone who's played MMOs for 10 years?</p>

[Badmotorfinger]

<p>lol, lotta ball bustin'</p>

[Alfeo]

<p><cite>jay777 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>No you guys are just in denial because you want top dps yada yada yada, you have no right to tell me what is for me and what is not you are not god and you do not know what is best for me so back off dude.</p></blockquote><p>I've tried to be nice and explain things thoroughly, but you just ignore my posts and go back to your talking points without addressing anything im saying and thats insulting. Cause im not saying a [Removed for Content] thing about what you should do, but rather what people in a good guild expect out of a conjuror and how the class is like at a raid level. I say this because you are speaking authoritatively on who should win what based apparently on what feels right to you and not based on how the game actually is like.</p><p> This is the truth, if you cant parse competitively compared to a wizard, you will be considered to be a trash conjuror and no one will use in a serious raiding guild. I dont know how many ways to say this, but your value in a raid is going to be dependent solely on this fact. If you can't do this, then grats on your guilds new wizard thats gonna replace you. DPS spots are rare, DPS classes are plentiful, the only utility that matters from mages comes from chanters thus this is how it goes down in any guild with actual standards.</p><p>Also for the record, you got it wrong too about who wins in a short fight. If you have an equal conj and wizard and they both have everything up. In a short fight (30-50 seconds or so) the conjuror is going to have the edge. The conjuror has quite a few high reuse abilities that do alot of damage, with a time warped elemental blast doing more damage per button press than pretty much any other spell in the game except VC. However the better recast on the wizard's bread and butter spells like ice comet will enable the wizard to catch up and of course their burst dps is not shabby either. Either way, utility/gear/skill/kindoffight will determine the winner pretty much every time. Not even counting who gets more random disable effects (permanent charms, 1 min long stifle/stun, etc etc theres alot of annoying crap in actual raid fights)</p>

[Xalmat]

<p>Disable effects definitely give Conjurors an edge over Wizards a lot of the time. If a Wizard is disabled for 1 minute, his DPS is zero. If a Conjuror is disabled, the pet can still attack most of the time and still contribute to the fight.</p>

[jay777]

<p>I will ignore your post in fact I didnt read it at all, like I said soe will not have 2 differant kinds of wizards running around that makes no sense every class has to do differant kinds of dps in differant kinds of way wizards and warlocks are suppose to burst dps, well aoe dot on warlock.</p><p>Just like the swashy is dps with utility while the assasin can prob out dps but lacks the utility etc anyways I wont be coming back here so I suggest we drop it.</p><p>And just fyi since you guys are not willing to prove it, I already linked it to the wizards, this argument is getting old we need some numbers to end this discussion if im wrong im wrong but it still doesnt make sense to me.</p>

[Xalmat]

<p>Sorry, but my <span style="text-decoration: underline;">six</span> years of experience as a Conjuror <em>still</em> says you don't know what you're talking about.</p>

[jay777]

<p>Which makes you biased.</p>

[jay777]

<p>Ok so check it out in your own thread here is the link this is stickied to, somewhat proves what I have been saying.</p><p><a href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?topic_id=171441" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/...topic_id=171441</a></p><p><span ><span style="color: #ffff00;"><strong>Q. Aren't Sorcerers better at damage then us? Why should I choose a second-rate DPS'er?</strong></span>A. Sometimes, the term "best DPS" gets thrown around with little basis in fact. Sorcerers (and predators) can out damage us sometimes, not all the time. In fights lasting longer then 30 seconds, Conjurors start pulling ahead of the pack in regards to top damage output; every second after 30 pushes us further up the DPS chain since most classes cannot keep up with our overall damage and power regen capabilities.</span></p><p>Clearly it states that conjurers do more dps in longer fights, so again your to freaken biased and you need a reality check.</p>

[Xalmat]

<p>Thank you for pointing that out. I need to rewrite it. That exact answer was written some 4 years ago, and doesn't exactly relate to the present day state of the game.</p>

[hellfire]

<p><cite>jay777 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>And just fyi since you guys are not willing to prove it, I already linked it to the wizards, this argument is getting old we need some numbers to end this discussion if im wrong im wrong but it still doesnt make sense to me.</p></blockquote><p>Numbers was already stated ...you are still not following or paying attention to what anyone is saying cause parses have already been given.</p>

[jay777]

<p>You did write it but it still proves that is where conjurers are suppose to be they are not suppose to be wizards that is there class design.</p>

[thajo]

<p><cite>jay777 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>You did write it but it still proves that is where conjurers are suppose to be they are not suppose to be wizards that is there class design.</p></blockquote><p>Whether the things people are saying or not makes sense to you, its the way it is.  You are being a pretty stubborn and ignorant know-it-all brat when experienced players are giving you extremely informative and relative posts that are based on personal experience rather than "what you think makes sense" and your own personal visions of how you view the class.  You can't get over yourself and its making you look like a jerk tbh.  You're tone is rude and belittling and your assumptions just don't match reality that this game plays out day to day, these days.</p><p>These people have helped you more than human nerves should be willing to considering the hissy fits you throw at these people.  Take a deep breath...and get ready to accept this.  You are wrong on lots of your stances on this thread.  These conjs are not in denial, they are not biased, sorry.  None of this has anything to do with how fun you have playing the class, this is about how the conj class is portrayed in Eq2 in SF.  I play my inquisitor so I can dps and solo stuff...thats not what inqs are made for but I have fun doing it.  I'm not deluded into thinking Inqs are expected of anything else but high power healers and I know my preferred style of Inquisitor gameplay will not get me in any good guild on it, etc etc etc.  Learn to seperate your opinion/personal preference over some matters of fact about the current game state.</p><p>This isn't surprising of you.  You made a thread about persistent buffs and did nothing but jump and attack every person who said "sorry dude, but most people in this game are not a fan of rebuffing".  You are - cool.  But you got all hissy-fitty when you just couldn't possibly believe that your assumptions were wrong.  Grow up dude.  Now you can get all defensive about this post or think about it for a second and re-examine your assertions your making about this class and the advice given to you about it.  Good luck in your adventuring.</p>

[Xalmat]

<p>Thank you, Dakkota. It's refreshing to see a Wizard back us up.</p><p>Jay777, I'll say it one last time. Whether you choose to believe it or not, these are the facts:</p><p>Right now, Conjurors <em>are</em> a high-output damage class. If they weren't a high damage class, they would not be wanted in groups or raids for any reason.</p><p>The "utility" that Conjurors provide does not justify a slot in a group or raid. It is nice utility, in the form of active and passive buffs (and limited crowd control depending on the content), but it's <span style="text-decoration: underline;">not</span> enough for someone to say "let's take that Conjuror because of his utility".</p><p>Stretching as far back as I can remember (at least before Echoes of Faydwer), Conjurors <em>are</em> capable of very high damage parses. Situationally, they <em>can</em>, and <em>do</em>, top parses. A lot of it does depend on the specific content, group makeup, relative skill levels of all players involved, gear levels, luck, and so on, but at the same time this holds true for everyone.</p><p>Right now, Conjurors <em>are</em> capable of pretty high burst damage numbers, something that wasn't as true even as recently as The Shadow Odyssey (Conjurors could still do burst damage, just not near the numbers they can do now). Situationally, they have the highest burst damage in the game right now, given ideal circumstances.</p>

[jay777]

<p>There is no tone with no sound that is simply not true, I do not have an attitude, you all forget one thing, you already have wizards conjurers are a whole differant class yet your all saying that conjurers can do the same dps as wizards in the same ways, I am not in denial but come on common sense should tell you that <em>it does not make sense to make 2 differant classes that can do the same thing and in the same way the only differance is one has pets and buffs pets while pets does the dps for them as they stand back and cast spells as well. While wizards cast it all, if anything it sounds like now wizards have to do extra work since some of the dps comes from pets on conjurers.</em></p><p>Now I guys have shown some numbers I appreciate that, but to be honest I really need to play one to endgame to know for myself, you can call me ignorant, stuborned or whatever you want but never once have I seen 2 differant classes that do the same dps in the same timely manner. And nice try on pointing out that post, I attacked no one until people started saying I was in the minority and many people agreed with me in that post that you guys where making a big deal out of it, and some of us actually enjoy rebuffing it was a simple question if you like I could easily prove it.</p><p>Now I admit I did get hostile here I apologize, and maybe a little judgemental but you must understand the confusion here espically with someone who has played many mmos before.</p><p>Just fyi next time you decide to try to make me look bad or worse then I have made myself look you might want to actually read the replies and my posts a little more carefully.</p>

[hellfire]

<p><cite>jay777 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p> I am not in denial but come on common sense should tell you that <em>it does not make sense to make 2 differant classes that can do the same thing and in the same way the only differance is one has pets and buffs pets while pets does the dps for them as they stand back and cast spells as well. </em></p></blockquote><p>Umm they are both mages and they both cast spells.</p><p>Besides that similiarity a wizard and conj are totally different.Where  do you get that the 2 classes dps the same way...they are nothing alike but you seem to think they are.</p><p>Yes they both cast spells and make numbers fly over the monsters head...........definetly doing everything the same it seems.</p><p>Wait dont forget about necros and warlocks ...they cast spells also........damm so many classes doing all the same thing.</p><p>Play the game for a bit like try them both out .....and get back to us.</p><p>Just because you have played MMOs for 10 years or may have stayed at a holiday inn last night doesnt give you the understanding unless you try it out yourself.</p>

[jay777]

<p>You guys are the ones who claimed they did dps in the same speed as wizards, I tried to say you still reach the numbers by doing longer fights but you said it was wrong, I have tried both and wizard dps spells hit harder in less spells, while pet mixing with dd spells does the dps. So as you can see that is why it does not make sense to me.</p>

[hellfire]

<p><cite>jay777 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>You guys are the ones who claimed they did dps in the same speed as wizards, I tried to say you still reach the numbers by doing longer fights but you said it was wrong, I have tried both and wizard dps spells hit harder in less spells, while pet mixing with dd spells does the dps. So as you can see that is why it does not make sense to me.</p></blockquote><p>Yes we can do  comparable dps as a wizard ...in completly different fashions......seems to make alot of sense.</p><p>Two different classes with two different ways to get  the damage out...how the heck is that the same and why would you even view it as the same.</p><p>No wonder its not making sense to you cause you are confusing yourself imo.</p><p>.</p>

[jay777]

<p>Maybe I am, but all that does is show wizards have a much easier time dpsing then conjurers since they can do it in shorter spells of course there should be differant fashions but both classes should not be able to do the same dps, even though everyone is saying they are it should not be that way, just like how assasins will have big hits while a rangers has many hits that take down the enemy, a ranger will likely do dps in longer fights just like a conj probably should.</p>

[Banditman]

<p>I have a Wizard and a Conjuror.  They both cast spells as a form of DPS.  That's pretty much where all similarity ends.</p><p>Wizards cast very, very slowly.  Conjurors cast (relative to Wizards) very quickly.  The Wizards spells hit much, much harder than the Conjuror spells.</p><p>There are situations where my Wizard can burst better than my Conjuror.  There are situations where my Conjuror can burst better than my Wizard.  There are times when my Conjuror does better long term damage than my Wizard, and likewise times when the Wizard does better.  Their DPS levels overall are very comparable, but they get to that place in very different manners.  The Wizard probably has slightly better numbers overall.</p><p>For soloing, once again, they are very comparable, while getting there in totally different manners.  A Conjuror either lets his pet tank or snare kites his target around.  A Wizard is almost totally dependant on the quality of his root spells.  If it can be rooted, a Wizard can kill it.  If it can be snared, a Conjuror can kill it.</p><p>It's really quite simple.  Two mages with completely different styles, arriving at similar end results.</p>

[jay777]

<p>Which is what I have been saying the whole time, wizards longer casts biger hits, conjurers faster casts more damage over time, longer fights conjurer, shorter fights wizards, you just proved it by comparing them.</p>

[hellfire]

<p><cite>jay777 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Which is what I have been saying the whole time, wizards longer casts biger hits, conjurers faster casts more damage over time, longer fights conjurer, shorter fights wizards, you just proved it by comparing them.</p></blockquote><p>No you still dont get it.</p><p>There is nothing to prove cause you are comparing nothing but different paths to get to the same place.</p><p>And comparing them means zero in terms of who does more dps in longer fights or shorter fights since both classes have comparable dps.</p><p>Comparable dps over 20 seconds...over 1 min...over 10 mins....over 3 hours.</p><p>Generally same dps..... different ways to generate it ........ REGARDLESS of  combat time.</p><p>And actually shortest fight possible a conj would win so throw your theroy out the window cause it doesnt work.</p><p>Just like wepons in game.... longer delay higher damage and shorter delay lesser damage......both have same damage rating.</p>

[jay777]

<p>Yawns are you done trying to prove your point yet?</p>

[hellfire]

<p>Nope ......</p><p>Are you done yet ....cause this is fun /stretch</p>

[Banditman]

<p>I have a spell as a Wizard that does (on average) 10,000 points of damage.  It takes me 4 seconds to cast.  I have a spell as a Conjuror that does (on average) 5,000 points of damage.  It takes me 2 seconds to cast.</p><p>Who does more damage over 40 seconds?</p><p>Neither.  They arrive at exactly the same place, 2500 DPS, despite the fact that the Wizard spell hits twice as hard.</p><p>That's the trade off.</p><p>A Wizard has to pay careful attention to AE's and make sure that his long casting spells don't get interrupted when those land.  A Conjuror has less of this to worry about since his spells don't take as long to cast.  However, the Conjuror faces the "burden" of watching out for his pet and making sure the pet is properly positioned / protected from AE's.</p><p>Again, a trade off.  Both must pay attention, but for different reasons.  Different paths to the same end result.</p><p>Wizard.  Conjuror.  Similar results, different means to achieve them.</p>

[jay777]

<p>Ok your right then. Good journey.</p>

[Germs666]

<p><cite>Alfeo wrote:</cite><span style="font-family: verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 11px; color: #444444;">Edit:</span></p><blockquote><p>Summoners btw are very much close to sorcerors right now parse wise given the same buffs. If you don't believe that then fine, go look over some parse threads if you don't want to take the word of some actual raiding summoners :/</p><p>Also, the main thing I wanted to say, is not to discourage you but to make it clear, if you are intending to play a conjuror. You are playing a dps class above anything else.</p></blockquote><p>Don't even say summoners because Necros are far from sorcerors.</p>

[Germs666]

<p><cite>Alfeo wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>jay777 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>If it makes sense to you that conjurers should do the same dps as a wizard then you should not be playing a conjurer, pet classes are not suppose to be the best dps while most should be around secondary or third there are other classes who actually deserve the high numbers espically considering wizards are harder and more boring to solo they need to be able to offer something more to the class like major group single target dps.</p></blockquote><p>I very much disagree here on multiple counts.</p><p>1) Conjurors (as well as some other classes, Necromancers and Rogues) can get close to or surpass t1 dps depending on fights and available buffs. If you go to eq2flames and look at the parse threads for wizards and conjurors you can see how high people get. Rogues too btw can also parse pretty high and typically tend to have better utility to boot. </p></blockquote><p>Don't even use the "N" word here because there is no evidence of Necros being capable of breaking 100k dps on single target raid mobs</p>

[Banditman]

<p>Nor is there all that much evidence of Conjurors doing that.  There are a couple guilds world wide with players capable of breaking 100k.  And even then only on very easy, very short fights.  If your *guild* isn't capable of killing a mob like Sara Greenheart in 45-50 seconds then no one is going to break 100k.</p><p>Yes, players like Arlian, Oonej, Solja and a few others can post big parses like that.  But it's always on fights of very short duration because their guild is capable of so much burst DPS.  There is nothing wrong with that, but you have to take it for what it is.</p><p>When a fight lasts for less than the duration of Plane Shift, it gets silly like that.  Rest assured that parses like that are not the norm for the Conjuror community as a whole.</p>