The battleground gear is completely useless since GU58... [Archive]

Dorsan

10-21-2010, 08:50 AM

Here is a small calculation I just did:We are using a raid geared wizard with 0 toughness and 10 PvP crit hmit (that all mages get from int stat), 100 potency, 80 crit bonus and their red adorns.As his opponent we are using a wizard with full BG gear, who will have the 40% crit bonus, 50% PvP + PvE potency, 90% PvP crit mit and 20% toughness.Raid geared wizard doing an ice comet on a BG geared wizardbase spell damage: 10.000spell damage with focus: 11.500spell damage after 100% potency: 23.000spell damage after crit multiplier (2.6) - PvP crit mit(0.9): 39100spell damage reduced by elemental resist: 9775spell damage reduced by toughness: 7820BG geared wizard doing an ice comet on a raid geared wizardbase spell damage: 10.000spell damage after 50% PvP + PvE potency: 15.000spell damage after crit multiplier (2.0) - PvP crit mit(0.1): 28500spell damage reduced by elemental resist: 7125Add to that the additional spell double attack chance raid geared wizards will have, superior warding/healing procs and last but not the leas the superior damage procs from the raid gear, and you can see how toughness gear fails to give any benefit whatsoever compared to raid gear in Battlegrounds. A small combination of up to 2-3 Battlegrounds pieces with PvP crit mit adorns with raid gear in 90% of the slots will make the numbers even more skewed, making raiders wastly superior against BG geared players in Battlegrounds.

Darkor

10-21-2010, 08:59 AM

That seems far from useless for gear that you can get in no time without risking anything. I am the only one who has this opinion? BG gear is second best gear set next to the high end raid stuff...

Dorsan

10-21-2010, 09:03 AM

I can do the math for you with 2-3 pieces of PvP crit mit gear combined with full raid gear and then the difference will be far more in advantage for the raid gear. And I can't even start the additional advantages raid gear procs give. In a realistic scenario a BG geared player will get at least twice (300% is very likely) the incoming damage compared to the raid geared player.In fact I just did take the time and made the calculation for a BG geared wiz vs a raid geared wiz with 3 toughness items added in with PvP crit mit adorns:Raid geared wizard doing an ice comet on a BG geared wizard:base spell damage: 10.000spell damage with focus: 11.500spell damage after 95% potency: 22.425spell damage after crit multiplier (2.55) - PvP crit mit(0.9): 37001spell damage reduced by elemental resist: 9250spell damage reduced by toughness: 7400BG geared wizard doing an ice comet on a raid geared wizard:base spell damage: 10.000spell damage after 50% PvP + PvE potency: 15.000spell damage after crit multiplier (2.0) - PvP crit mit(0.6): 21000spell damage reduced by elemental resist: 5250spell damage reduced by toughness: 4725Add in the procs and you'll see my point clearly.

Darkor

10-21-2010, 09:15 AM

<cite>Dorsan@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>I can do the math for you with 2-3 pieces of PvP crit mit gear combined with full raid gear and then the difference will be far more in advantage for the raid gear. And I can't even start the additional advantages raid gear procs give. In a realistic scenario a BG geared player will get at least twice (300% is very likely) the incoming damage compared to the raid geared player.</blockquote>I dunno what advantages raidgear procs bring. My torrent procs hit for barely 300 dmg nowdays. Everything is so dumped down in pvp it isnt even fun. I dont understand the issue to be honest. BG gear is so frigging EASY to get. It takes no skill, no effort, almost no time. But its a fairly good armor for everything untill you reach harder raids.If people want the best gear ingame, why dont they go and get it? I mean what is stopping them to gather 4 groups and do a good coordinated raid? And please dont call me a raider again. I have never killed an avatar and ive not killed a hard mode mob either. But i still think its pretty stupid seeing people deck out all their chars with this totally broken gear with you can get for no effort.Back in the day i could regulary play my characters without having to worry about aquiring several pieces for different play styles (pvp, PvE offensive, PvE defensive sets etc.) I used to love this wonderfull PvE game which simply had pvp enabled. How did you all enjoy pvp back in the day when you could get nothing special out of it? I did it for the fun.

Darkor

10-21-2010, 09:23 AM

<cite>Dorsan@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>I can do the math for you with 2-3 pieces of PvP crit mit gear combined with full raid gear and then the difference will be far more in advantage for the raid gear. And I can't even start the additional advantages raid gear procs give. In a realistic scenario a BG geared player will get at least twice (300% is very likely) the incoming damage compared to the raid geared player.In fact I just did take the time and made the calculation for a BG geared wiz vs a raid geared wiz with 3 toughness items added in with PvP crit mit adorns:Raid geared wizard doing an ice comet on a BG geared wizard:base spell damage: 10.000spell damage with focus: 11.500spell damage after 95% potency: 22.425spell damage after crit multiplier (2.55) - PvP crit mit(0.9): 37001spell damage reduced by elemental resist: 9250spell damage reduced by toughness: 7400BG geared wizard doing an ice comet on a raid geared wizard:base spell damage: 10.000spell damage after 50% PvP + PvE potency: 15.000spell damage after crit multiplier (2.0) - PvP crit mit(0.6): 21000spell damage reduced by elemental resist: 5250spell damage reduced by toughness: 4725Add in the procs and you'll see my point clearly.</blockquote>Your point is far from clear. You are comparing armor that you can get in 2 days to armor, that people spent hours, weeks and months of raiding into an expansion. You do realize that some mobs of are still not beaten on our server and you actually compare our crap BG gear with BEST gear you can get which is still FAR away from like 95 % of the games population? That is simply dumb imho.

Dorsan

10-21-2010, 09:24 AM

<cite>Ajjantis@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>I dunno what advantages raidgear procs bring. My torrent procs hit for barely 300 dmg nowdays. Everything is so dumped down in pvp it isnt even fun. I dont understand the issue to be honest. BG gear is so frigging EASY to get. It takes no skill, no effort, almost no time. But its a fairly good armor for everything untill you reach harder raids.If people want the best gear ingame, why dont they go and get it? I mean what is stopping them to gather 4 groups and do a good coordinated raid? And please dont call me a raider again. I have never killed an avatar and ive not killed a hard mode mob either. But i still think its pretty stupid seeing people deck out all their chars with this totally broken gear with you can get for no effort.Back in the day i could regulary play my characters without having to worry about aquiring several pieces for different play styles (pvp, PvE offensive, PvE defensive sets etc.) I used to love this wonderfull PvE game which simply had pvp enabled. How did you all enjoy pvp back in the day when you could get nothing special out of it? I did it for the fun.</blockquote>You are too biased in this matter so I am not going to waste my time trying to convince you. However I am -not- worried about your gear personally, so no need to be so defensive about it. And when you stated you "refuse to wear battlegrounds gear" (in the thread in the PvP section), all your posts regarding the same gear became irrelevant. I didn't posted this math to convince you or any raider about my truth. I posted this because I believe the intention of toughness nerf was to make combat shorter, and not to give advantage to raid gear in PvP/Battlegrounds, and I think they had no idea that this raid gear imbalance will happen.

Darkor

10-21-2010, 09:34 AM

<cite>Dorsan@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Ajjantis@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>I dunno what advantages raidgear procs bring. My torrent procs hit for barely 300 dmg nowdays. Everything is so dumped down in pvp it isnt even fun. I dont understand the issue to be honest. BG gear is so frigging EASY to get. It takes no skill, no effort, almost no time. But its a fairly good armor for everything untill you reach harder raids.If people want the best gear ingame, why dont they go and get it? I mean what is stopping them to gather 4 groups and do a good coordinated raid? And please dont call me a raider again. I have never killed an avatar and ive not killed a hard mode mob either. But i still think its pretty stupid seeing people deck out all their chars with this totally broken gear with you can get for no effort.Back in the day i could regulary play my characters without having to worry about aquiring several pieces for different play styles (pvp, PvE offensive, PvE defensive sets etc.) I used to love this wonderfull PvE game which simply had pvp enabled. How did you all enjoy pvp back in the day when you could get nothing special out of it? I did it for the fun.</blockquote>You are too biased in this matter so I am not going to waste my time trying to convince you. However I am -not- worried about your gear personally, so no need to be so defensive about it. And when you stated you "refuse to wear battlegrounds gear" (in the thread in the PvP section), all your posts regarding the same gear became irrelevant. I didn't posted this math to convince you or any raider about my truth. I posted this because I believe the intention of toughness nerf was to make combat shorter, and not to give advantage to raid gear in PvP/Battlegrounds, and I think they had no idea that this raid gear imbalance will happen.</blockquote>Im far from biased. I liked the concept of having a good title system which indicates your enemys strength. I also liked the idea of having certain pieces, maybe jewelery only to earn throu pvping. But i hate the idea of getting a F U L L set of VERY powerfull gear in 2 days. I hate the idea of farming tokens over and over and hoard them untill the next set comes which you can buy on release day. I hate the idea of getting this GREAT gear with no effort, with no challenge, with no time invested. So you come here and throw random numbers of gear to us that noone of us will ever see and compare it to bg gear? Its simply silly. I said allready that i dont do hardmode raids, bg gear is almost better than my gear with the exception of pve crit miti, yet i still have to work for my stuff while everyone else does nothing for their.

Zacarus

10-21-2010, 09:35 AM

<cite>Ajjantis@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Dorsan@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>I can do the math for you with 2-3 pieces of PvP crit mit gear combined with full raid gear and then the difference will be far more in advantage for the raid gear. And I can't even start the additional advantages raid gear procs give. In a realistic scenario a BG geared player will get at least twice (300% is very likely) the incoming damage compared to the raid geared player.</blockquote>I dunno what advantages raidgear procs bring. My torrent procs hit for barely 300 dmg nowdays. Everything is so dumped down in pvp it isnt even fun. I dont understand the issue to be honest. BG gear is so frigging EASY to get. It takes no skill, no effort, almost no time. But its a fairly good armor for everything untill you reach harder raids.If people want the best gear ingame, why dont they go and get it? I mean what is stopping them to gather 4 groups and do a good coordinated raid? And please dont call me a raider again. I have never killed an avatar and ive not killed a hard mode mob either. But i still think its pretty stupid seeing people deck out all their chars with this totally broken gear with you can get for no effort.Back in the day i could regulary play my characters without having to worry about aquiring several pieces for different play styles (pvp, PvE offensive, PvE defensive sets etc.) I used to love this wonderfull PvE game which simply had pvp enabled. How did you all enjoy pvp back in the day when you could get nothing special out of it? I did it for the fun.</blockquote>Ajjantis >> almost no timeNo time? 20 pieces * 85 tokens = 1,700 tokens. 1.7k tokens / 2 per match = 850 bg matches (would have to win 67% of the time). @ 10 minutes each that's 8,500 minutes. Div by 60 = 141 hours. That doesn't count queue'ing time.If you received, on average, a quarter of a raid piece per hour raided, it would only take 80 hours of raiding to reach 20 pieces. .25 * 80 = 20

Darkor

10-21-2010, 09:44 AM

<cite>Zacarus@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Ajjantis@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Dorsan@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>I can do the math for you with 2-3 pieces of PvP crit mit gear combined with full raid gear and then the difference will be far more in advantage for the raid gear. And I can't even start the additional advantages raid gear procs give. In a realistic scenario a BG geared player will get at least twice (300% is very likely) the incoming damage compared to the raid geared player.</blockquote>I dunno what advantages raidgear procs bring. My torrent procs hit for barely 300 dmg nowdays. Everything is so dumped down in pvp it isnt even fun. I dont understand the issue to be honest. BG gear is so frigging EASY to get. It takes no skill, no effort, almost no time. But its a fairly good armor for everything untill you reach harder raids.If people want the best gear ingame, why dont they go and get it? I mean what is stopping them to gather 4 groups and do a good coordinated raid? And please dont call me a raider again. I have never killed an avatar and ive not killed a hard mode mob either. But i still think its pretty stupid seeing people deck out all their chars with this totally broken gear with you can get for no effort.Back in the day i could regulary play my characters without having to worry about aquiring several pieces for different play styles (pvp, PvE offensive, PvE defensive sets etc.) I used to love this wonderfull PvE game which simply had pvp enabled. How did you all enjoy pvp back in the day when you could get nothing special out of it? I did it for the fun.</blockquote>Ajjantis >> almost no timeNo time? 20 pieces * 85 tokens = 1,700 tokens. 1.7k tokens / 2 per match = 850 bg matches (would have to win 67% of the time). @ 10 minutes each that's 8,500 minutes. Div by 60 = 141 hours. That doesn't count queue'ing time.If you received, on average, a quarter of a raid piece per hour raided, it would only take 80 hours of raiding to reach 20 pieces. .25 * 80 = 20</blockquote>Your numbers are not accurate. I go join a x2 BG with my stacked up group and win it in 3 minuts easily unless there is a very good pre-made group on the opposide team. I'll be doing that whole day and have almost everything with no risk, no effort, no difficult and as i said, ALMOST no time.And those raid numbers do not work either. Especially since you are not counting the difficult of coordinating 24 players together and waste hours of raiding learning new mobs. A lot of time has passed before the first hard mode encounter went down. How long did it take to buy a set of pvp armo with your saved tokens?PS: while it does not affect me personally you have to keep in mind that this BG just awarded 12 people with tokens and even the losing team got some while on a raid only 2-3 people have a chance of getting one and when you lose you do not get anything.

Zacarus

10-21-2010, 09:52 AM

<cite>Ajjantis@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Zacarus@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Ajjantis@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Dorsan@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>I can do the math for you with 2-3 pieces of PvP crit mit gear combined with full raid gear and then the difference will be far more in advantage for the raid gear. And I can't even start the additional advantages raid gear procs give. In a realistic scenario a BG geared player will get at least twice (300% is very likely) the incoming damage compared to the raid geared player.</blockquote>I dunno what advantages raidgear procs bring. My torrent procs hit for barely 300 dmg nowdays. Everything is so dumped down in pvp it isnt even fun. I dont understand the issue to be honest. BG gear is so frigging EASY to get. It takes no skill, no effort, almost no time. But its a fairly good armor for everything untill you reach harder raids.If people want the best gear ingame, why dont they go and get it? I mean what is stopping them to gather 4 groups and do a good coordinated raid? And please dont call me a raider again. I have never killed an avatar and ive not killed a hard mode mob either. But i still think its pretty stupid seeing people deck out all their chars with this totally broken gear with you can get for no effort.Back in the day i could regulary play my characters without having to worry about aquiring several pieces for different play styles (pvp, PvE offensive, PvE defensive sets etc.) I used to love this wonderfull PvE game which simply had pvp enabled. How did you all enjoy pvp back in the day when you could get nothing special out of it? I did it for the fun.</blockquote>Ajjantis >> almost no timeNo time? 20 pieces * 85 tokens = 1,700 tokens. 1.7k tokens / 2 per match = 850 bg matches (would have to win 67% of the time). @ 10 minutes each that's 8,500 minutes. Div by 60 = 141 hours. That doesn't count queue'ing time.If you received, on average, a quarter of a raid piece per hour raided, it would only take 80 hours of raiding to reach 20 pieces. .25 * 80 = 20</blockquote>Your numbers are not accurate. I go join a x2 BG with my stacked up group and win it in 3 minuts easily unless there is a very good pre-made group on the opposide team. I'll be doing that whole day and have almost everything with no risk, no effort, no difficult and as i said, ALMOST no time.And those raid numbers do not work either. Especially since you are not counting the difficult of coordinating 24 players together and waste hours of raiding learning new mobs. A lot of time has passed before the first hard mode encounter went down. How long did it take to buy a set of pvp armo with your saved tokens?PS: while it does not affect me personally you have to keep in mind that this BG just awarded 12 people with tokens and even the losing team got some while on a raid only 2-3 people have a chance of getting one and when you lose you do not get anything.</blockquote>Those numbers are accurate, except the top gear costs closer to 95 tokens not 85 now.

TalisX1

10-21-2010, 10:02 AM

Zacarus, you are never going to convince raiders that their gear should not be the best for everything. It is a lost cause.Silat

Wytie

10-21-2010, 10:19 AM

<cite>Dorsan@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>Here is a small calculation I just did:We are using a raid geared wizard with 0 toughness and 10 PvP crit hmit (that all mages get from int stat), 100 potency, 80 crit bonus and their red adorns.As his opponent we are using a wizard with full BG gear, who will have the 40% crit bonus, 50% PvP + PvE potency, 90% PvP crit mit and 20% toughness.Raid geared wizard doing an ice comet on a BG geared wizardbase spell damage: 10.000spell damage with focus: 11.500spell damage after 100% potency: 23.000spell damage after crit multiplier (2.6) - PvP crit mit(0.9): 39100spell damage reduced by elemental resist: 9775spell damage reduced by toughness: 7820BG geared wizard doing an ice comet on a raid geared wizardbase spell damage: 10.000spell damage after 50% PvP + PvE potency: 15.000spell damage after crit multiplier (2.0) - PvP crit mit(0.1): 28500spell damage reduced by elemental resist: 7125Add to that the additional spell double attack chance raid geared wizards will have, superior warding/healing procs and last but not the leas the superior damage procs from the raid gear, and you can see how toughness gear fails to give any benefit whatsoever compared to raid gear in Battlegrounds. A small combination of up to 2-3 Battlegrounds pieces with PvP crit mit adorns with raid gear in 90% of the slots will make the numbers even more skewed, making raiders wastly superior against BG geared players in Battlegrounds.</blockquote>Are you crazy?What extra spell double attack?What raid gear for wizzys have ward procs?What raid gear has superior warding/healing procs?Are you out of your mind?Your number calculations dont even make sense either.Not to even mention AA's, which have a far greater impact on a Wiz abilitly to either mitigate tons of damage do greater damage that skew your numbers even farther.I see the point you are trying to make, but there just too many vairables for any of us to get accurate calculations without knowing the exact formula the servers use to calculate our pvp damage to a player.

Avirodar

10-21-2010, 10:22 AM

<cite>Zacarus@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>If you received, on average, a quarter of a raid piece per hour raided, it would only take 80 hours of raiding to reach 20 pieces. .25 * 80 = 20</blockquote>Your numbers are far out of whack. Since I joined Tyranny, I have averaged one piece of loot every 9 days, and it is now spanning 6 months. That equates to 1 item for every 30 hours of raiding. A far cry from your claim of 1 item per 4 hours.Attempting to put an "average" on raid loot recieved per hour of raiding will never work. Do not even attempt it, TBH.

Darkor

10-21-2010, 10:27 AM

I dont think he was serious when throwing arround those numbers.

Dorsan

10-21-2010, 10:35 AM

<cite>Paill@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>Are you crazy?</blockquote>If I am crazy, would I be aware of it?<cite>Paill@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>What extra spell double attack?</blockquote>Correct me if I am wrong but there is a 2% spell double attack red adornment.<cite>Paill@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>What raid gear for wizzys have ward procs?What raid gear has superior warding/healing procs?</blockquote>Not wizzy specific, but there are a few drops, and I know a wiz who did bid for a few tank items that are equipable by wizards just to use them in PvP. And healers have enough of ward/heal procs to compensate anyway.<cite>Paill@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>Are you out of your mind?</blockquote>I don't know. Are you?<cite>Paill@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>Your number calculations dont even make sense either.</blockquote>It is simple math. I am sorry if you are bad at it, but those are the exact equations in calculating the damage for that spell (if it hits with that base).<cite>Paill@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>Not to even mention AA's, which have a far greater impact on a Wiz abilitly to either mitigate tons of damage do greater damage that skew your numbers even farther.</blockquote>I assumed both wizards in the said example are specced exactly the same way. If you want to compare gear, you need to set everything else to even footing.<cite>Paill@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>I see the point you are trying to make, but there just too many vairables for any of us to get accurate calculations without knowing the exact formula the servers use to calculate our pvp damage to a player.</blockquote>We do know the exact formula. It is not complicated at all. Here, I will write it down to you:You start with a number within the range from the base spell damage (which you get from spell level, quality, int and ability modifier)You take the said number and multiply it by the crit multiplier.The crit multiplier is calculated using the equation below:base crit + aa/buff crit bonus + gear crit bouns - opponents pvp crit mitif the crit multiplier is below 1.00 then it defaults to 1.00if the multiplied number is less than max base damage + 1 then it becomes equal to max base damage + 1now, take the multiplied number and multiply it with the potencythe number you got is the actual damage you are inflicting on the playerthat number is then multiplied by the % that goes through spell resists - which are capped at 75%, so you multiply the number with 0.25. That is the mitigated valueToughness goes in at the end and acts as another mitigation, which ranges from 0 to 20% (with currently available gear) so the last multiplier is 0.8-1.0.After this, you get the actualy damage received.From this you substract all the damage reductions that you get from gear/aa and then you get the final damage.That final damage will eat the wards for the ammount the calculations gave you and if wards are at 0, it will eat your health.As you can see it is a very simple math, and you can get to very accurate numbers - if you ignore procs, because calculating them in would be way too lenghty for a forum post (not impossible though).Got it now?

dr4gonUK

10-21-2010, 10:45 AM

<cite>Dorsan@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>You are too biased in this matter so I am not going to waste my time trying to convince you. However I am -not- worried about your gear personally, so no need to be so defensive about it. And when you stated you "refuse to wear battlegrounds gear" (in the thread in the PvP section), all your posts regarding the same gear became irrelevant. I didn't posted this math to convince you or any raider about my truth. I posted this because I believe the intention of toughness nerf was to make combat shorter, and not to give advantage to raid gear in PvP/Battlegrounds, and I think they had no idea that this raid gear imbalance will happen.</blockquote>qft

dr4gonUK

10-21-2010, 10:47 AM

<cite>Ajjantis@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Zacarus@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Ajjantis@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Dorsan@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>I can do the math for you with 2-3 pieces of PvP crit mit gear combined with full raid gear and then the difference will be far more in advantage for the raid gear. And I can't even start the additional advantages raid gear procs give. In a realistic scenario a BG geared player will get at least twice (300% is very likely) the incoming damage compared to the raid geared player.</blockquote>I dunno what advantages raidgear procs bring. My torrent procs hit for barely 300 dmg nowdays. Everything is so dumped down in pvp it isnt even fun. I dont understand the issue to be honest. BG gear is so frigging EASY to get. It takes no skill, no effort, almost no time. But its a fairly good armor for everything untill you reach harder raids.If people want the best gear ingame, why dont they go and get it? I mean what is stopping them to gather 4 groups and do a good coordinated raid? And please dont call me a raider again. I have never killed an avatar and ive not killed a hard mode mob either. But i still think its pretty stupid seeing people deck out all their chars with this totally broken gear with you can get for no effort.Back in the day i could regulary play my characters without having to worry about aquiring several pieces for different play styles (pvp, PvE offensive, PvE defensive sets etc.) I used to love this wonderfull PvE game which simply had pvp enabled. How did you all enjoy pvp back in the day when you could get nothing special out of it? I did it for the fun.</blockquote>Ajjantis >> almost no timeNo time? 20 pieces * 85 tokens = 1,700 tokens. 1.7k tokens / 2 per match = 850 bg matches (would have to win 67% of the time). @ 10 minutes each that's 8,500 minutes. Div by 60 = 141 hours. That doesn't count queue'ing time.If you received, on average, a quarter of a raid piece per hour raided, it would only take 80 hours of raiding to reach 20 pieces. .25 * 80 = 20</blockquote>Your numbers are not accurate. I go join a x2 BG with my stacked up group and win it in 3 minuts easily unless there is a very good pre-made group on the opposide team. I'll be doing that whole day and have almost everything with no risk, no effort, no difficult and as i said, ALMOST no time.And those raid numbers do not work either. Especially since you are not counting the difficult of coordinating 24 players together and waste hours of raiding learning new mobs. A lot of time has passed before the first hard mode encounter went down. How long did it take to buy a set of pvp armo with your saved tokens?PS: while it does not affect me personally you have to keep in mind that this BG just awarded 12 people with tokens and even the losing team got some while on a raid only 2-3 people have a chance of getting one and when you lose you do not get anything.</blockquote>His numbers are accurate. Can you stop being a braindead troll?

Darkor

10-21-2010, 10:50 AM

His numbers are NOT accurate. He says i need 10 minuts to get a bg match done when it isnt 10 minuts. Completely wrong numbers and repeating it over and over does not make it any more true.

Dorsan

10-21-2010, 10:58 AM

<cite>Ajjantis@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>His numbers are NOT accurate. He says i need 10 minuts to get a bg match done when it isnt 10 minuts. Completely wrong numbers and repeating it over and over does not make it any more true.</blockquote>Yes, because people who do not raid are known to have x2 at their disposal at all times. And people without gear can easily win. And because up until gu58, you didn't need smugglers and gears tokens, which took even more time.Oh and one more thing, your bg reward vs raid reward calculation is way off too. While in a Ganak match 12 people do receive 3 tokens each, that is only 0.26315789473684210526315789473684 PvP item for the victory. And for every downed raid name you get at least 2. So a raid victory is worth 5.27 won BG matches gear wise. Or if you look at 95 tokens per item - as they are on the merchant, 2 items (that are dropped from a raid mob) are worth 180 tokens. And the whole raid gets 72 tokens from a smugglers match (which is also an x4 event, just like the raid). So basically if you say you need more time to down 1 boss then to complete 2.5 smugglers games (for the "same" reward), then I have to tell you to get a better raiding guild.

dr4gonUK

10-21-2010, 11:01 AM

Wytie

10-21-2010, 11:20 AM

<cite>Dorsan@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Paill@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>Are you crazy?</blockquote>If I am crazy, would I be aware of it? good point lol<cite>Paill@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>What extra spell double attack?</blockquote>Correct me if I am wrong but there is a 2% spell double attack red adornment. Same as the blue pvp adornment.<cite>Paill@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>What raid gear for wizzys have ward procs?What raid gear has superior warding/healing procs?</blockquote>Not wizzy specific, but there are a few drops, and I know a wiz who did bid for a few tank items that are equipable by wizards just to use them in PvP. And healers have enough of ward/heal procs to compensate anyway. But that is still tank gear, it will provide little or no dps to the mage, where the BG gear slot equilivant will give its toughness and still provide a good amount of mage dps in the form of pvp potency and anyother proc attached to it.<cite>Paill@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>Are you out of your mind?</blockquote>I don't know. Are you? Yes very much so lol<cite>Paill@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>Your number calculations dont even make sense either.</blockquote>It is simple math. I am sorry if you are bad at it, but those are the exact equations in calculating the damage for that spell (if it hits with that base).No its not, it guessing. We simply do not know the formula so until we do its a complete guess.<cite>Paill@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>Not to even mention AA's, which have a far greater impact on a Wiz abilitly to either mitigate tons of damage do greater damage that skew your numbers even farther.</blockquote>I assumed both wizards in the said example are specced exactly the same way. If you want to compare gear, you need to set everything else to even footing.Yes but you didnt establish that even footing or take into account what those AA's do to your damage calculations over all which WILL mitiage WAY more damage than you are showing gets mitigated which is why I said your numbers were so far off.<cite>Paill@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>I see the point you are trying to make, but there just too many vairables for any of us to get accurate calculations without knowing the exact formula the servers use to calculate our pvp damage to a player.</blockquote>We do know the exact formula. It is not complicated at all. Here, I will write it down to you:You start with a number within the range from the base spell damage (which you get from spell level, quality, int and ability modifier)You take the said number and multiply it by the crit multiplier.The crit multiplier is calculated using the equation below:base crit + aa/buff crit bonus + gear crit bouns - opponents pvp crit mitif the crit multiplier is below 1.00 then it defaults to 1.00if the multiplied number is less than max base damage + 1 then it becomes equal to max base damage + 1now, take the multiplied number and multiply it with the potencythe number you got is the actual damage you are inflicting on the playerthat number is then multiplied by the % that goes through spell resists - which are capped at 75%, so you multiply the number with 0.25. That is the mitigated valueToughness goes in at the end and acts as another mitigation, which ranges from 0 to 20% (with currently available gear) so the last multiplier is 0.8-1.0.After this, you get the actualy damage received.From this you substract all the damage reductions that you get from gear/aa and then you get the final damage.That final damage will eat the wards for the ammount the calculations gave you and if wards are at 0, it will eat your health.As you can see it is a very simple math, and you can get to very accurate numbers - if you ignore procs, because calculating them in would be way too lenghty for a forum post (not impossible though).Got it now?</blockquote>Its not that simple of math.We have no idea what point damage reduction AA's and Wards play along with all the other damage reductions and mitigations bonuses procs ect.....So for you to say its simple, is obviously wrong on so many levels.Think about like this, if there are multiple ways to mitigate damage its very improtant which of those mitigation checks reduces the damage first rather than last, can have a huge impact on the end damage result.Take Rift for example, its magical damage. So it has to go through magic resistance, magic damage reduction, general damage reduction, and finally toughness and last but not least any passive magic and passive general wards that a self buff wiz should have. Thats a ton of damage reductions that arent and CANT be accounted for in any of your calculations.Add to the fact that RNG has a huge part in alot fo those calculation too and its dam near impossiable to figure this out even close to accuratly without seeing the code ourselves.

S_M_I_T_E

10-21-2010, 11:27 AM

<cite>Ajjantis@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>....</cite>which is still FAR away from like 95 % of the games population? That is simply dumb imho.</blockquote>Even if 5% have it, those 5% can disrupt the flow of the game whenever they are present. Since raiding and maxing EQ2 in general requires time it is very likely someone of the 5% will be in the BGs whenever a regular ole 95%er logs in.This problem is still extremely obvious in T8. Pre58 there was practically a supertwink (at least one of them) on whenver I played in the window of 7-2am EST. I do think the OPs arguement would have been better had he used a Ranger's opening volley of CA's Autoattack to show invincibility of High DPS characters rather than using Elemental based Wizard which is vulnerable to those pesky Brellium 75% mitigation jewelry ON TOP of the toughness/crit mit/etc. Ohlin needs to make some Brellium Jewelry available that mitigate 75% of autoattack damage ON TOP of toughness/crit mit/etc. if toughness stands as it is now and people don't start PUGing like premades. That's a solution to Ranger OP-ness

Lathain_Sarathai

10-21-2010, 11:30 AM

I agree, Raid gear > BG gear "FOR BG" ! (the for BG is really important)Raid gear are easier to get than BG gear yes, a lot easier. Just look how many twink alt have full T2 raid armor or even better... I feel always strange to see people with handcraft or really crappy gear mixed with Uber raid gear and apprentice spell lol.BG gear are hard to get, one item it's not that hard... but in raid, take a look, one raid last one hour and a load of fabled drop each time. Did we get one fabled when we doing one or two BG ? hell noHow many effort did it take for full gear one toon ? in raid it can take really few time, if lucky enough you can get everything in one or two days of raid... With BG for get the 2000 token you need, even if you always win (and it's not possible just because sometime you enter in losed bg, even god mod cant change everything) so it will take like 1000 BG to get full gear... Each BG inclued waiting time between...BG gear are not that easy to get. player are lot more harrassing than raid mob, it's exausting.Raid gear are very easy to get, all it take is do your job, raid mob are less boring/easier than player.Since it's all about burst dps now the BG gear was here for give extra survivability, it's not a factor anymore.BG is useless now. And added to that every BG item have crit chance... A useless blue stats, everyone have more than 100 a fail of itemization.So a twink with good guild will take 2 day for get a better gear than a casual player will take 3 month to gear, and the 2 days player will destriy the 3 month guy. IT's the point.BG gear should and must give significant advantage to BG. That's ALL

S_M_I_T_E

10-21-2010, 11:35 AM

<cite>Ajjantis@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>... I go join a x2 BG with my stacked up group and win it in 3 minuts easily unless there is a very good pre-made group on the opposide team. ....I'll be doing that whole day and have almost everything with no risk, no effort, no difficult and as i said, ALMOST no time....</blockquote>1) Most BG's ppl from PvE are PUGers who can't or don't want instances and they que solo.2) Most BG's ppl from PvE aren't going to farm tokens in a premade.Your post shows that one can with enough focus and time "game the system" quick, but the average player who plays 4hrs BGs a week tops or less queing solo won't be having full sets for 4 characters in T8/9 +800 tokens in the bank pre DoV.If PvP servers have a problem with BGs gearing out their PvP people I don't know why BG armor PvP isn't just made less effective in PvP Servers so you all don't have problems. The BG armor isn't "all that" in T9 for PvE players unless your a tank chasing the mitigation of fabled, but then again in the PvE group game tanks generally Parse Like non-raid T1 DPS but that's a different problem altogether. I know on my Inq the only thing on the BG fabled that caught my attention is the 15% AOE autoattack I could get which works in PvE.

Dorsan

10-21-2010, 11:39 AM

<cite>Paill@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>Think about like this, if there are multiple ways to mitigate damage its very improtant which of those mitigation checks reduces the damage first rather than last, can have a huge impact on the end damage result.</blockquote>No, since all mitigation are calculated by multiplications. Damage reductions by a flat number are the only ones that aren't permuttable. A*B*C=C*A*BAnd we already know that toughness is calculated last when it comes to mitigation, but the damage reduction comes after the toughness - plainly visible from damage parses on sorcerers for example.<cite>Paill@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>Take Rift for example, its magical damage. So it has to go through magic resistance, magic damage reduction, general damage reduction, and finally toughness and last but not least any passive magic and passive general wards that a self buff wiz should have. Thats a ton of damage reductions that arent and CANT be accounted for in any of your calculations.Add to the fact that RNG has a huge part in alot fo those calculation too and its dam near impossiable to figure this out even close to accuratly without seeing the code ourselves.</blockquote>I didn't take wards into the equation because wards needs to be burned down anyway - unless dispelled, which is not and option with all of them. And it would be too many things to factor in. What I was showing there was that toughness and PvP crit mit do not compensate for the loss of dps anymore. If I would factor in wards and flat damage reductions then the equation would become even more skewed towards the raid gear advantage, because with the flat damage reduction the percentages become much higher.The fact is, crit bonus and potency are getting multiplied therefore making any increase in both stats having exponential results in the end damage. You need 41% increased crit bonus and potency (note: red focus adornments also act as potency in this equation) compared to BG gear in order to have your damage doubled. And full toughness gear does reduces the incoming damage by that much. In fact it will reduce damage by around 47% (with both critical mitigation and toughness taken into consideration). And if you do equip just a 2-3 PvP crit mit pieces, leaving all other slots to raid gear, you will outpreform any BG geared player by far. And I am sure you are well aware of this as well.If having raid gear compared to BG gear is better or not is not the question any more.The only question here is, was the toughness nerf intended to give raid gear an advantage or is it an unwanted side effect?

Wytie

10-21-2010, 12:21 PM

<cite>Dorsan@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Paill@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>Think about like this, if there are multiple ways to mitigate damage its very improtant which of those mitigation checks reduces the damage first rather than last, can have a huge impact on the end damage result.</blockquote>No, since all mitigation are calculated by multiplications. Damage reductions by a flat number are the only ones that aren't permuttable. A*B*C=C*A*BAnd we already know that toughness is calculated last when it comes to mitigation, but the damage reduction comes after the toughness - plainly visible from damage parses on sorcerers for example.<cite>Paill@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>Take Rift for example, its magical damage. So it has to go through magic resistance, magic damage reduction, general damage reduction, and finally toughness and last but not least any passive magic and passive general wards that a self buff wiz should have. Thats a ton of damage reductions that arent and CANT be accounted for in any of your calculations.Add to the fact that RNG has a huge part in alot fo those calculation too and its dam near impossiable to figure this out even close to accuratly without seeing the code ourselves.</blockquote>I didn't take wards into the equation because wards needs to be burned down anyway - unless dispelled, which is not and option with all of them. And it would be too many things to factor in. What I was showing there was that toughness and PvP crit mit do not compensate for the loss of dps anymore. If I would factor in wards and flat damage reductions then the equation would become even more skewed towards the raid gear advantage, because with the flat damage reduction the percentages become much higher.The fact is, crit bonus and potency are getting multiplied therefore making any increase in both stats having exponential results in the end damage. You need 41% increased crit bonus and potency (note: red focus adornments also act as potency in this equation) compared to BG gear in order to have your damage doubled. And full toughness gear does reduces the incoming damage by that much. In fact it will reduce damage by around 47% (with both critical mitigation and toughness taken into consideration). And if you do equip just a 2-3 PvP crit mit pieces, leaving all other slots to raid gear, you will outpreform any BG geared player by far. And I am sure you are well aware of this as well.If having raid gear compared to BG gear is better or not is not the question any more.The only question here is, was the toughness nerf intended to give raid gear an advantage or is it an unwanted side effect?</blockquote>How do you know all damage reductions and mitigations are calculated equal, from gear and AA's?Any potency and CB you gain extra from raid gear over pvp gear is closely compisated from the gain in pvp crit mit and toughness along with pvp potency.Right now its as fair as tradeoff. This is what is should be. The pvp dev clearly said his intentions were that players who had access to raid gear AND pvp/bg gear would have to make a choice dps or survivability and that mosty would want a mixture.Before everyone was piggonholed into wearing full pvp sets because of so much survivability it gave, no amount of dps gear from your opponets could compinsate for it.Now we all have to make a choice and everyone's gear setup can have some flexibility and variance.

Avirodar

10-21-2010, 12:26 PM

<cite>Dorsan@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>Yes, because people who do not raid are known to have x2 at their disposal at all times. And people without gear can easily win. And because up until gu58, you didn't need smugglers and gears tokens, which took even more time.Oh and one more thing, your bg reward vs raid reward calculation is way off too. While in a Ganak match 12 people do receive 3 tokens each, that is only 0.26315789473684210526315789473684 PvP item for the victory. And for every downed raid name you get at least 2. So a raid victory is worth 5.27 won BG matches gear wise. Or if you look at 95 tokens per item - as they are on the merchant, 2 items (that are dropped from a raid mob) are worth 180 tokens. And the whole raid gets 72 tokens from a smugglers match (which is also an x4 event, just like the raid). So basically if you say you need more time to down 1 boss then to complete 2.5 smugglers games (for the "same" reward), then I have to tell you to get a better raiding guild.</blockquote>BG tokens allow you to choose what ever item you want from the entire BG item table. Killing a raid mob does not allow you to choose any item you desire from any raid mob in EQ2. Raiding, especially successfuly, requires a degree of competency and situational fortune that numerous people do not have access too, or are capable of. And recieving loot from raids requires a mob dropping the loot people actually want/need, as oppose to repeated loot or garbage no one wants.The attempts of people to compare raid loot intake against BG loot intake, is one big can of fail. Do not even try. It is beyond apples and oranges.Like I said in my prior post. Over the last 6 months I have averaged 1 item every 9 days from raiding, and that includes the loot I didnt care much about, but thrown in a small bid for anyways.

Badmotorfinger

10-21-2010, 12:30 PM

As a Summoner; raid gear is 100% better than BG/ PVP gear. And that's from only raiding T1 stuff. It doesn't show up in the all standard armor pieces like Robes and Shoulders (Helm and Foerarms still being crap for Summoners), but when you move on to Jewlery and weapons; a summoner has complete horse crap for choices. Even this last GU they didn't add anything useful for a summoner. NOT A THING. Frankly it's pretty sickning that I need to Raid in order to compete in PVP. You don't gain NEAR enough defense for the amount of DPS that's sacrificed.... and Conjis are made of toilet paper. This update beat conjurors to a pulp... like they needed it. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/2786c5c8e1a8be796fb2f726cca5a0fe.gif" border="0" />

Dorsan

10-21-2010, 12:32 PM

<cite>Paill@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>Right now its as fair as tradeoff. This is what is should be. The pvp dev clearly said his intentions were that players who had access to raid gear AND pvp/bg gear would have to make a choice dps or survivability and that mosty would want a mixture.</blockquote>It is a fair tradeoff if you are the one in the DPS gear that is. Because the defense you get is not anywhere near the DPS gains. If you get twice the damage and 50% improved defense then it is more than clear that one gear vastly outpreforms the other. And we are not only talking about DPS either, raid geared healers can protect their groups much better compared to BG geared healers as well. In fact a group with full raid gear would smoke a BG geared group within seconds.

Drakks

10-21-2010, 12:33 PM

BG gear is only obtainable in "2 day" by those capable of getting raid gear or those who farm other brackets for tokens.To the casual non-raider, BG gear is the only option and it is not obtainable in "2 days" -- and given that BG gear is supposed to offer an upgrade path to excel within the BGs, it's silly that pve raid gear is beating it out toe to toe. It's an arguement of function, just to be clear.

Dorsan

10-21-2010, 12:38 PM

<cite>Avirodar@Oasis wrote:</cite><blockquote>BG tokens allow you to choose what ever item you want from the entire BG item table. Killing a raid mob does not allow you to choose any item you desire from any raid mob in EQ2. Raiding, especially successfuly, requires a degree of competency and situational fortune that numerous people do not have access too, or are capable of. And recieving loot from raids requires a mob dropping the loot people actually want/need, as oppose to repeated loot or garbage no one wants.The attempts of people to compare raid loot intake against BG loot intake, is one big can of fail. Do not even try. It is beyond apples and oranges.Like I said in my prior post. Over the last 6 months I have averaged 1 item every 9 days from raiding, and that includes the loot I didnt care much about, but thrown in a small bid for anyways.</blockquote>T1/T2 mix gear is on pair if not better compared to BG gear. I was fully geared in that gear with a weak raiding guild two months before I had my BG gear set. And I spent more time in BGs then I spent raiding. So I don't really care what you write here because I know how easy both gear sets are to get from first hand experience.

Wytie

10-21-2010, 12:54 PM

<cite>Dorsan@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Paill@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>Right now its as fair as tradeoff. This is what is should be. The pvp dev clearly said his intentions were that players who had access to raid gear AND pvp/bg gear would have to make a choice dps or survivability and that mosty would want a mixture.</blockquote>It is a fair tradeoff if you are the one in the DPS gear that is. Because the defense you get is not anywhere near the DPS gains. If you get twice the damage and 50% improved defense then it is more than clear that one gear vastly outpreforms the other. And we are not only talking about DPS either, raid geared healers can protect their groups much better compared to BG geared healers as well. In fact a group with full raid gear would smoke a BG geared group within seconds.</blockquote>This is where we obviously disagree.You somehow think that raid gear is giving that much more dps over BG gear in combat, but in reality it isnt, atleast not against players who have a decent of toughness. Sure it does give you a bit more dps for a few specific peices but its not to the point that it makes all BG gear worthless because if you dont have atleast a few pieces on your toast to anyone who looks at you.

Dorsan

10-21-2010, 01:14 PM

We also disagree on the point on how much defense you gain using BG gear compared to raid gear. Let's take just this example. You have 3 heroic resistance X pieces BG with PvP crit mit adorns gear and you have the RAID ITEM, the 90 version of the gynok ring (you know which one I mean, the one with the 800 grp power regen and 10% chance to proc 2 stoneskin). Now, equiped just those 3 BG pieces, you will have 10% toughness, 75% PvP crit mit, and you will basically stoneskin 20% of incoming damage (on the long run). That already beats the defense of someone with full toughness gear - note there are no stoneskin items on BG merchants. And you are only using 3 slots for BG gear, you have 18 slots left for pieces that each beats BG gear in DPS. So at the end of the day you have the same defense as anyone in full toughness gear, and significantly more damage. And that is why you wear raid gear for BG/PVP, don't you? <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Wytie

10-21-2010, 01:28 PM

<cite>Dorsan@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>We also disagree on the point on how much defense you gain using BG gear compared to raid gear. Let's take just this example. You have 3 heroic resistance X pieces BG with PvP crit mit adorns gear and you have the RAID ITEM, the 90 version of the gynok ring (you know which one I mean, the one with the 800 grp power regen and 10% chance to proc 2 stoneskin). Now, equiped just those 3 BG pieces, you will have 10% toughness, 75% PvP crit mit, and you will basically stoneskin 20% of incoming damage (on the long run). That already beats the defense of someone with full toughness gear - note there are no stoneskin items on BG merchants. And you are only using 3 slots for BG gear, you have 18 slots left for pieces that each beats BG gear in DPS. So at the end of the day you have the same defense as anyone in full toughness gear, and significantly more damage. And that is why you wear raid gear for BG/PVP, don't you? <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" /></blockquote>75% pvp crit mit from just 3 peices? lol wat are you smoking?I have a mixture of raid and pvp/bg gear on in my personal pvp setup, but a majority of it is still toughness gear.Also what you fail to understand is quite of few BG peices provide BETTER dps in pvp than most raid gear for its slot simply due to the amount of pvp potency it provides.The peices I use have encounter procs which parse garbage in pvp btw but are still nice enough for me to consider since I have so many other BG peices on, so again you are flat out wrong in thinking raid gear gives that much more dps in combat verses BG gear. For a few limited slots sure but even then you still have the trade off that raid gear not giving any toughness.

Darkor

10-21-2010, 01:32 PM

<cite>Tanx@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Ajjantis@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>His numbers are NOT accurate. He says i need 10 minuts to get a bg match done when it isnt 10 minuts. Completely wrong numbers and repeating it over and over does not make it any more true.</blockquote>Your reputation precedes you and your posts confirm that well deserved reputation.</blockquote>The last thing you can impress me with is a attack on my "reputation" in a game lol.

Dorsan

10-21-2010, 02:05 PM

<cite>Paill@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>75% pvp crit mit from just 3 peices? lol wat are you smoking?</blockquote>Heroic Resistance X * 3 = 30 crit mitPVP crit mit blue adorn * 3 = 15 crit mitcrit mit from int stat = 10 crit mitcrit mit from 10% toughness = 20 crit mit--------------------------------------------------------total = 75% pvp crit mit---------------------------------------------------------Obviously I am not smoking. <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><cite>Paill@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>Also what you fail to understand is quite of few BG peices provide BETTER dps in pvp than most raid gear for its slot simply due to the amount of pvp potency it provides.</blockquote>Well that is true for easymode drops, not so much for all items.<cite>Paill@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>For a few limited slots sure but even then you still have the trade off that raid gear not giving any toughness.</blockquote>The 15% toughness that is on jewelery pieces provides almost no defense at all. It gives 0.5% damage reduction and 1% PvP crit mit. Almost anything can beat that.

Avirodar

10-21-2010, 02:11 PM

<cite>Dorsan@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>T1/T2 mix gear is on pair if not better compared to BG gear. I was fully geared in that gear with a weak raiding guild two months before I had my BG gear set. And I spent more time in BGs then I spent raiding. So I don't really care what you write here because I know how easy both gear sets are to get from first hand experience.</blockquote>Does not change the fact that anyone can log in, at any time they choose, and spend a couple of hours doing BGs, taking a coffee break between each match, and still rack up a few tokens, win or lose, and they do not need to group with another player to do it. If it is hard to understand, I will make it simpler: It is easy to get BG armor. Win or lose, just takes some time, no grouping or guild required.You clearly refuse to admit or concede that obtaining raid armor requires a whole lot more involvement than collecting a few BG tokens for simply turning up. Raiding requires a player quota, and a mixture of class types, all on the same server. And there is no guarantee if a PUG is forming, you will get in. There is no guarantee if loot drops, you will get it.How fast you "gear up" with T1 and T2 in a "weak" guild depends on several factors, such as how well geared the average player in the guild you raid with is. Of course if you go in butt-naked, and everyone else in the guild is suited up with loot from the mobs being killed, you will "gear up fast", drops pending. But that is a total mis-representation of the invested effort required to obtain the loot, and the raid scene as a whole.So when people in this thread try to pull numbers out of thin air, as to how fast they believe people can get raid loot, I used the last 6 months of my raiding history to prove it wrong (DKP item history does not lie). There is a massive difference between 1 item per 4 hours (what was claimed), and 1 item per 30 hours (my last 6 months and entire time in my current guild). As someone who raids a lot, I know first hand.I based my figures on facts, raid history vs raid schedule vs 6 months of raiding.You based your figures on... Well, no doubt you made them up, and did not factor in a lot of elements.You tried to use imaginary numbers to make your case look legit. It failed. Better luck next time.

Dorsan

10-21-2010, 02:23 PM

<cite>Avirodar@Oasis wrote:</cite><blockquote>I based my figures on facts, raid history vs raid schedule vs 6 months of raiding.You based your figures on... Well, no doubt you made them up, and did not factor in a lot of elements.</blockquote>Can you point out those fictional figures of mine? Please look it up and quote it because I don't remember saying anything about how many hours it takes to get 1 item. And I was raiding at the beginning of the XPAC, so the whole guild was naked, everyone was gearing up at the time.

Lathain_Sarathai

10-21-2010, 02:26 PM

again bg gear dont have do be better than raid gear...BG gear have to be better or equal to raid gear FOR BG. Add special bonus set activated only when inside BG. Easy...

Avirodar

10-21-2010, 02:47 PM

<cite>Dorsan@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>Can you point out those fictional figures of mine? Please look it up and quote it because I don't remember saying anything about how many hours it takes to get 1 item. And I was raiding at the beginning of the XPAC, so the whole guild was naked, everyone was gearing up at the time.</blockquote>Reading over quoted posts, it looked like you made a comment that someone else did. My apologies. Regardless, raid loot requires more effort to obtain than BG loot, because you can not just get a raid rolling at any time you desire, and be able to take as many AFKs or breaks between mobs as you desire.

Wytie

10-21-2010, 03:05 PM

<cite>Dorsan@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Paill@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>75% pvp crit mit from just 3 peices? lol wat are you smoking?</blockquote>Heroic Resistance X * 3 = 30 crit mitPVP crit mit blue adorn * 3 = 15 crit mitcrit mit from int stat = 10 crit mitcrit mit from 10% toughness = 20 crit mit--------------------------------------------------------total = 75% pvp crit mit---------------------------------------------------------Obviously I am not smoking. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" /><cite>Paill@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>Also what you fail to understand is quite of few BG peices provide BETTER dps in pvp than most raid gear for its slot simply due to the amount of pvp potency it provides.</blockquote>Well that is true for easymode drops, not so much for all items.<cite>Paill@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>For a few limited slots sure but even then you still have the trade off that raid gear not giving any toughness.</blockquote>The 15% toughness that is on jewelery pieces provides almost no defense at all. It gives 0.5% damage reduction and 1% PvP crit mit. Almost anything can beat that.</blockquote>Which 3 slots give you all the pvp stats you listed and 10% toughness? I still think your smoking btw but I have been wrong many times before. lolYea the toughness on the jewelry isnt alot but its there and along with it is usally castspeed, pvp potency and/or a nice pvp only effects. Most only stuff I like that beats alot of it and is shown by what I use in bg, and is the group buff proc stuff and a couple encounter damage procs.Fact of the matter is BG gear to Raid gear is not going to give anyone, a huge enough dps advanatage that the toughness and pvp only procs wont make up for in a fight.The only area where raid gear is obviously way better in BG is on groupwide temp procs. Theres not alot of them but they are very nice. Thats from my class perspective.

patrck17

10-21-2010, 03:16 PM

I can see how it is nice to have the best gear for BGing without having to actually BG, especially in this game which I think we can agree on is mostly geared toward PVE. As a PVE player one can do what they primarily want to do which is raid for 4 hours a night to get the great gear, then in the free/spair time or just randomly when they are tired of jumping in circles in the guild hall, they can que up BGs and still stomp out less geared players who are only wearing BG gear. This seems like a great system for a raider, whom may not have enough time to focus on getting an additional set of BG gear for when they want to hack and slash.If you are a player that can only play 4 hours a night 3-5 nights a week the clear choice here is to raid. It is obviously plenty enough time to get the best of the BG gear OR the best of the raid gear in a reasonable amount of time, but problably not both. However in raid gear you can pwn in raid AND in BG, but in BG gear you can't really pwn in either. Unfortunately if you can't play that often you may be out of luck. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" />I agree though it does seem a little strange that you'd have raid gear outperforming BG gear in BG, and it likely is an oversight on the dev's part when they nerfed toughness so people would actually die, but the smartest thing to do (if you have time) is join a raid guild so you can get more out of the game, which is primarly pve with a taste of pvp.By the way I don't discourage the QQ either because it is important that the dev's at least realize how their players feel about things, I just don't think they will bother changing anything, at least till xpac.

Uinael_Guk

10-21-2010, 06:25 PM

<cite>Dorsan@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>Here is a small calculation I just did:We are using a raid geared wizard with 0 toughness and 10 PvP crit hmit (that all mages get from int stat), 100 potency, 80 crit bonus and their red adorns.As his opponent we are using a wizard with full BG gear, who will have the 40% crit bonus, 50% PvP + PvE potency, 90% PvP crit mit and 20% toughness.Raid geared wizard doing an ice comet on a BG geared wizardbase spell damage: 10.000spell damage with focus: 11.500spell damage after 100% potency: 23.000spell damage after crit multiplier (2.6) - PvP crit mit(0.9): 39100spell damage reduced by elemental resist: 9775spell damage reduced by toughness: 7820BG geared wizard doing an ice comet on a raid geared wizardbase spell damage: 10.000spell damage after 50% PvP + PvE potency: 15.000spell damage after crit multiplier (2.0) - PvP crit mit(0.1): 28500spell damage reduced by elemental resist: 7125Add to that the additional spell double attack chance raid geared wizards will have, superior warding/healing procs and last but not the leas the superior damage procs from the raid gear, and you can see how toughness gear fails to give any benefit whatsoever compared to raid gear in Battlegrounds. A small combination of up to 2-3 Battlegrounds pieces with PvP crit mit adorns with raid gear in 90% of the slots will make the numbers even more skewed, making raiders wastly superior against BG geared players in Battlegrounds.</blockquote>There are a few issues with this:1 - Where is toughness in that? I could have missed it in your math.2 - What kind of gear does that raider have? 100 potency, 80 crit bonus? That's a little high, don't you think? It seems like you think every raiding wizard is geared out like Tyranny or Shoukin type of Wizards, when the reality is 99% of raiding Wizards don't even have their T3 gloves yet.3 - Raid wizards who refuse to buy the BG gear are also unlikely to have a pvp spec. Ward of Sages and Runic Protection are very nice wards, especially combined with 20% toughness and 90% crit mit. Even if a raid wizard has a pvp spec, those wards are chewed up quicker than the BG geared Wiz.4 - Just about every piece of BG gear has more HP's than even T3 items. I'm sitting at 17,188 HP's self buffed. More HPs = harder to kill5 - BG gear also has procs as well as a ton of boosts like + disruption. I'm sitting at 622 disruption which helps with resists quite a bit.I also have 9 items that proc damage, 1 that heals, 1 that procs a ward, 1 that reduces heals on people, and a bunch of power procs. Those aren't bad procs for 95% BG geared--Personally, in my experiences in BG's, I've found anyone to have no BG's gear to be extremely easy to kill and I 2-3 shot most of them. When you factor in that bg's are not 1v1, you have to inclue heals, and with a proper healer I'm *extremely* hard to kill vs anyone with no gear, even if they have raid gear. You can keep the raid gear, I'll keep the BG's gear and destroy people <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Dorsan

10-21-2010, 06:35 PM

Well, you sure won't see me in full BG gear if I have a good healer nearby anymore. Even with exchanging 5 pieces of BG gear for PvP T1/T2 raidgear, my DPS went up 25%. And I am only running full BG gear if i see the healer has less health than my necro or if there is no healer in my team. Trust me, if I'd have better raid gear, I would probably replace far more pieces in BGs. Which reminds me, any raiding guild needs a 90 necro / 250aa / 80% crit mit, dps spells mastered on nagafen? <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Corydonn

10-21-2010, 08:16 PM

<cite>Dorsan@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>Well, you sure won't see me in full BG gear if I have a good healer nearby anymore.</blockquote>Well if you want to get one shotted I'm fine with that. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Uinael_Guk

10-21-2010, 08:20 PM

I guess that depends on a number of factors. How good your red slot adornments are, how good the stats are, etc. I think any smart player will mix and match pve and pvp gear, especially jewerly because the bonus you get from toughness is much smaller than armor. I have 3 pve power proc items which I won't swap out for BG's items for 2% toughness, and I'm sure I'll get more items that are just too powerful to pass up.Full raid gear, or even mostly raid gear is usually not as powerful as near full BG's gear unless of course you are always rolling with a full group of equally nasty raid geared players, then you can usually tear through any non pre-made group.

Sydares

10-21-2010, 10:26 PM

This was a ludicrous test. The stats on both parties are completely different, and you used a sample size of... 1?Okay.

Dorsan

10-21-2010, 10:30 PM

<cite>Sydares wrote:</cite><blockquote>This was a ludicrous test. The stats on both parties are completely different, and you used a sample size of... 1?Okay.</blockquote>Umm... Dude. The point was to show what those different stats do because one type of gear has one set of stats and the other type of gear has another set of stats. But forget it, if you don't get it, you don't get it, I am too tired to explain.

Darkor

10-22-2010, 03:06 AM

The comparison still does not work.You are saying that BG gear which has more mitigation, more hp, better stats, toughness, critical pvp mitigation, dmg procs and alot of pvp potency is worthless. The statement becomes even more silly when you think about the difficult getting it. No risk, ALWAYS reward whether you lose or win does not matter, barely a time sink and very very easy. Now you compare THAT gear to high end hard mode raid gear that most of us wont see for quite some time. Grats

Lathain_Sarathai

10-22-2010, 06:55 AM

"You are saying that BG gear which has more mitigation, more hp, better stats, toughness, critical pvp mitigation, dmg procs and alot of pvp potency is worthless."Yes yes and yesmitigation = uselesshp = uselesstougness = more than uselesscritical pvp mitigation = uselessi got a full gear of pvp and i can be killed in less than half second, so you can have 2 time more hp that dont mater, it's all about who ll kill first, and the dps help more than the hp since last changefor telling that, it's clear you dont do bg much.Dmg proc, have nothing exceptionnal, better proc from raid gear.And pvp potency same, raid gear give better. and where is the crit bonus ???? potency alone do not much. And dont forget potenty work only when engaged in combat ... so the first shot or the first spell a BG player will give dont have the potency boost.As healer in klakanon it's frustrating to have half of my potency when someone is not actualy trying to kill me, and that happen more than often.BG gear look nice for people who dont know what they talk about... But if you try it or look harder you clearly see it's craps, useless.No risk ??? you kidding ?a raid mob is no risk. BG is really not a nice place where people give you flower you really should try befor post. We die more in BG than in raid lolPS: A raid ALWAYS reward, i have never see a raid not able to kill a single name, except in raid you get directly one item, in BG we get a small peace of one item"Now you compare THAT gear to high end hard mode raid gear that most of us wont see for quite some time. Grats"Yes INSIDE BG it's normal to compare them, again you should really try with a BG gear. WHo is supposed designed for BG...PPS: I Totaly forgot you dont get a seal token each time you kill a name ? This seal token allow you to buy raid gear right ? ...

Darkor

10-22-2010, 08:38 AM

<cite>Lathain_Sarathai wrote:</cite><blockquote>"You are saying that BG gear which has more mitigation, more hp, better stats, toughness, critical pvp mitigation, dmg procs and alot of pvp potency is worthless."Yes yes and yesmitigation = uselesshp = uselesstougness = more than uselesscritical pvp mitigation = uselessi got a full gear of pvp and i can be killed in less than half second, so you can have 2 time more hp that dont mater, it's all about who ll kill first, and the dps help more than the hp since last changefor telling that, it's clear you dont do bg much.Dmg proc, have nothing exceptionnal, better proc from raid gear.And pvp potency same, raid gear give better. and where is the crit bonus ???? potency alone do not much. And dont forget potenty work only when engaged in combat ... so the first shot or the first spell a BG player will give dont have the potency boost.As healer in klakanon it's frustrating to have half of my potency when someone is not actualy trying to kill me, and that happen more than often.BG gear look nice for people who dont know what they talk about... But if you try it or look harder you clearly see it's craps, useless.No risk ??? you kidding ?a raid mob is no risk. BG is really not a nice place where people give you flower you really should try befor post. We die more in BG than in raid lolPS: A raid ALWAYS reward, i have never see a raid not able to kill a single name, except in raid you get directly one item, in BG we get a small peace of one item"Now you compare THAT gear to high end hard mode raid gear that most of us wont see for quite some time. Grats"Yes INSIDE BG it's normal to compare them, again you should really try with a BG gear. WHo is supposed designed for BG...PPS: I Totaly forgot you dont get a seal token each time you kill a name ? This seal token allow you to buy raid gear right ? ...</blockquote>You say so many silly and completely false things, it makes me worry about the knowledge of pvp players.You seriously didnt tell me that hp, mitigation, toughness and crit mit is useless did you? Because it is not useless.You didnt just say that bg armor has no crit bonus right? Because it has quite some crit bonus additional to the pvp potency.IF you die in 1 second, and i do NOT believe it unless i see a fraps and a log of it, THEN Y O U are doing something wrong. Ive got classes across all tiers and why do i not get one shotted? What i am doing so special that you cant? Bear in mind, ive got 1 char with some easy mode raid gear stuff while the rest runs arround with different things from even handcrafted to mc, to legendary to fabled stuff.I do BGs alot, farming up tokens for things like the runspeed disk, for a good 2hander weapon that otherwise i wouldnt get for my alts or equip little twinks. When you certainly dont know me, you shouldnt say things about me that are not true. Dying in BGs means jack, you dont lose anything, you can only gain tokens. Please tell me how many items we used to get when we tried killing zarrakon for weeks. How many items did we get for trying to kill drushk/nexona who were major blocks in kunark over and over again? ZERO. You get seal tokens for killing stuff. You get bg tokens for losing and winning. The only good thing the seal vendor has are the weapons which requires you to save up your seals for ages while BGs reward you with almost equal powerfull weapons that you can get in a day. Grats again on getting frigging nice 2hander weapons for no effort.Again, you guys are making zero sense. You compare very powerfull bg armor that you can use in like 90 % of the game to high end raid stuff that most of us wont see untill the next expansion pack. EQ2 should go back to his roots and have their devs concentrate on PvE while keeping a balanced pvp system enabled. This is NO PVP GAME ONLY. THERE IS PEOPLE WHO'd LIKE TO DO PVE AND PVP, STOP LIMITING THE BIG CROWED BECAUSE YOU ARE UNABLE TO COORDINATE YOUR OWN LITTLE RAID TO KILL THE SAME STUFF.

Darkor

10-22-2010, 08:52 AM

<cite>Lathain_Sarathai wrote:</cite><blockquote>WALL OF TEXT</blockquote>Its funny to see you tell us how awful bad the BG armor is. Its also funny to see you say: "BG gear look nice for people who dont know what they talk about".Why on mothers earth are you wearing a full set then? I mean didnt you say that this armor is crap? Didnt you just say that only people who have no clue would use it? Why do you use it then? Bah hypocrites.Im done with the arguing now. You guys want to dumb down this game so you can get the best possible armor in this game for zero effort, zero time sink and zero difficulties. This is not the same game i've played over the last years where people actually had to earn their stuff. I'll be watching closely what Olihin and the other Devs do to this game and i can only hope they'll make it somewhat more challenging again. All this crazy gear handed out for nothing totally destroyed the game.

Dorsan

10-22-2010, 09:29 AM

Ajjantis, you seem to prefer trolling that actually considering what other people say, but I will still try to tell you this. PvP/BG gear just got a huge nerf. Most people are not aware of the extent of this nerf, but it's efficiency is reduced so much that the incoming damage of a person who is wearing full set of PvP/BG gear has increased over 50%. While pre-nerf the toughness gear was essential, it is not so anymore. The only thing that keeps BG gear somewhat viable are the PvP crit mit adorns, and their efficiency is lower today than crit mit efficiency was in TSO days, because of the increased crit bonus people are wearing. This is the hearth of the problem: BG gear vs BG gear fights were prolonged to boredom because of the huge defense of the gear and low offensive potential. Raid gear always had better offensive potential, but the defense of the BG gear very well compensated for it. After the toughness nerf, the BG gear vs BG gear fights became balanced. However wearing raid gear became more effective. I still don't know if that is intended or an unintended side effect. However if you nerf one set of gear it is obvious that all other gear becomes better compared. TL;DR version: BG gear got nerfed, Raid gear didn't. Hence raid gear is more powerful compared.

Forebian

10-22-2010, 10:32 AM

Just an over-arching comment here:NOTHING takes skill to get in this game. It is all a function of time. Period.Now back to your debate.

Lathain_Sarathai

10-22-2010, 11:13 AM

I dont wear the full set of BG, he is in my bank since GU58 now (a big wast of token), useless, the raid gear is way better so why i should keep a BG gear who dont give more survivability ?I have tryed it befor say that ^^Befor it was a load of item in bags, now bg gear is craps, i stick with raid gear all the time.BG Gear dont give anything interesting, raid gear allow to kill player faster, it's all about who ll kill first. Burst dps <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

patrck17

10-22-2010, 01:29 PM

Lol they will probably go in to fix it and end up making BG armor better than raid gear in raid instances. Think of the rage! That would be okay though because dumb BG'ers don't have all the needed skill it takes to kill a raidmob anyways. BOOM TAKE THAT BGers! Raid players just have more skill than everyone who doesn't raid, everyone.

Blambil

10-22-2010, 02:59 PM

Quick fix:All raid gear should have Negative PVP crit mit, Negative PVP migitation, Negative PVP resists equal to their POSITIVE PVE values, making the effect of wearing them in PVP/BG a ..... Net Zero.. like wearing nothing at all.Problem solved! :p

Dreadpatch

10-22-2010, 03:00 PM

<cite>Forebian wrote:</cite><blockquote>Just an over-arching comment here:NOTHING takes skill to get in this game. It is all a function of time. Period.Now back to your debate.</blockquote>T3 Plus raid gear takes skill to get. Thanks

Dreadpatch

10-22-2010, 03:07 PM

Raid gear allows for higher dps, while sacrificing the defense of toughness. I wear a balance of gear, some raid pieces and some pieces of BG gear in slots where the red adorns aren't game breaking for BG. I still to this day wear 1 or 2 pieces of jewelry on raids, to to say it's worthless is laughable. The nerf to the BG gear defense makes is possible for noobs to come in and be marginally effective versus completely worthless. I play a chanter, not exactly the most leet class in BG, but since the changes they are fun again. I had gotten 6 pieces of BG gear, chest, pants, gloves, and three pieces of jewelry. It still helps...... BG is fun again and I actually play it, I have heard several others say the same thing. So you might die a little bit more, but at least you'll have people to play with. Standing there for an entire match in gears with everyone max dps'ing with no one dying at all doesn't = my definition of fun.

Dreadpatch

10-22-2010, 03:10 PM

patrck17

10-22-2010, 03:12 PM

<cite>Elusion@Nektulos wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Forebian wrote:</cite><blockquote>Just an over-arching comment here:NOTHING takes skill to get in this game. It is all a function of time. Period.Now back to your debate.</blockquote>T3 Plus raid gear takes skill to get. Thanks</blockquote>See I told you.

Uinael_Guk

10-22-2010, 03:32 PM

<cite>Lathain_Sarathai wrote:</cite><blockquote>PS: A raid ALWAYS reward, i have never see a raid not able to kill a single name, except in raid you get directly one item, in BG we get a small peace of one item</blockquote>A raid has a reward, but not everyone in the raid gets the reward. Plus, you said you've never seen a raid not kill a single named, yea, you're right, most pickups can kill the first 2 in Toxx lair, and the first 3-4 in Labs, but their loot is far worse than almost every BG drop.When did the difficulty of raid mobs and the quality of reward get lost in this debate? A drop from the first named in Toxx lair is by far worse than a drop from deeper hole mobs, which most guilds can't kill right now. Look at the OP, he's stating how this raid gear wizard has 100 potency and 80 CB, which only a small handful of wizards per server have those numbers...It's very simple, if you have full T3 gear, full hole jewerly, and the stats mentioned in the OP, you've probably put in a lot more hours to this game than it takes to get a full set of BG's gear, so it's not an awful thing to be able to compete with BG players.. until one targets you and you drop dead in 3 hits that is.

patrck17

10-22-2010, 04:02 PM

<cite>Luceus@Everfrost wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Lathain_Sarathai wrote:</cite><blockquote>PS: A raid ALWAYS reward, i have never see a raid not able to kill a single name, except in raid you get directly one item, in BG we get a small peace of one item</blockquote>A raid has a reward, but not everyone in the raid gets the reward. Plus, you said you've never seen a raid not kill a single named, yea, you're right, most pickups can kill the first 2 in Toxx lair, and the first 3-4 in Labs, but their loot is far worse than almost every BG drop.When did the difficulty of raid mobs and the quality of reward get lost in this debate? A drop from the first named in Toxx lair is by far worse than a drop from deeper hole mobs, which most guilds can't kill right now. Look at the OP, he's stating how this raid gear wizard has 100 potency and 80 CB, which only a small handful of wizards per server have those numbers...It's very simple, if you have full T3 gear, full hole jewerly, and the stats mentioned in the OP, you've probably put in a lot more hours to this game than it takes to get a full set of BG's gear, so it's not an awful thing to be able to compete with BG players.. until one targets you and you drop dead in 3 hits that is.</blockquote>This post made me think of something, and I know this has probably been suggested and hashed out routinely on this forum BUT: what if, in the magical world of unlimited developer resources, they decided to come up with another tier of BG gear. So for some appropriate cost you can purchase BG gear that is actually better than or at least equal to raid gear in BG. Would that be okay or do we want to make it so no BG only players can be as good as raiders just cause we think that playstyle shouldn't be rewarded equally. I really don't know the amount of tokens it should be but I think it should require the current peice so you have to go through the first tier to get to the next. The amount of tokens should require that a hardcore BG player would get a peice at the same rate a HC raider would get a peice.Like I said assuming it was possible to implement this would we want it? I tend to think the more content available in the game the better, assuming that people arn't done getting it in a few days of play. I bet a lot of people disagree though.

Neskonlith

10-22-2010, 04:04 PM

<cite>Luceus@Everfrost wrote:</cite><blockquote>It's very simple, if you have full T3 gear, full hole jewerly, and the stats mentioned in the OP, you've probably put in a lot more hours to this game than it takes to get a full set of BG's gear, so it's not an awful thing to be able to compete with BG players.. until one targets you and you drop dead in 3 hits that is.</blockquote>Why should PVE expect automatically to be unlimited when used in a different area of the game? When you look at the other major areas of the game, you see a different progression path available in each: PVP rewards are limited to PVP, and Crafting epic rewards are limited to crafting... can you imagine: "...If you have the solstice earring, the harvester cloak, and the crafting class epic, you've probably put in a lot more hours to this game than it takes to get a full set of BeeGees gear, so it's not an awful thing to be able to compete with raiders or PVPs..."Fear the spoon!<img src="/eq2/images/smilies/97ada74b88049a6d50a6ed40898a03d7.gif" border="0" />

Dreadpatch

10-22-2010, 04:20 PM

Neskonlith

10-22-2010, 04:24 PM

Raid gear is effective in PVP, and now it is too effective with the recent 50% nerf to PVP - 40/600 was too high, and 20/600 is too low.

Notsovilepriest

10-22-2010, 05:19 PM

<cite>Neskonlith wrote:</cite><blockquote>Raid gear is effective in PVP, and now it is too effective with the recent 50% nerf to PVP - 40/600 was too high, and 20/600 is too low.</blockquote>Raid gear has toughness and PvP crit mit to make up for the DPS gained now? Seriously people are short sighted.

Jab

10-22-2010, 05:52 PM

<cite>Elusion@Nektulos wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Neskonlith wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Luceus@Everfrost wrote:</cite><blockquote>It's very simple, if you have full T3 gear, full hole jewerly, and the stats mentioned in the OP, you've probably put in a lot more hours to this game than it takes to get a full set of BG's gear, so it's not an awful thing to be able to compete with BG players.. until one targets you and you drop dead in 3 hits that is.</blockquote>Why should PVE expect automatically to be unlimited when used in a different area of the game? When you look at the other major areas of the game, you see a different progression path available in each: PVP rewards are limited to PVP, and Crafting epic rewards are limited to crafting... can you imagine: "...If you have the solstice earring, the harvester cloak, and the crafting class epic, you've probably put in a lot more hours to this game than it takes to get a full set of BeeGees gear, so it's not an awful thing to be able to compete with raiders or PVPs..."Fear the spoon!<img src="/eq2/images/smilies/97ada74b88049a6d50a6ed40898a03d7.gif" border="0" /></blockquote>Um, last time I checked the BG gear is rather effective in every other PVE aspect of the game cept for raiding. I would say it's pretty solid gear for soloing and heroic content, so why shouldn't raid gear be effective in PVP?</blockquote>Because the mobs that gets owned dont pay money to sony to have fun playing their game.Thats one reason.

patrck17

10-22-2010, 06:45 PM

<cite>Notsovilepriest@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Neskonlith wrote:</cite><blockquote>Raid gear is effective in PVP, and now it is too effective with the recent 50% nerf to PVP - 40/600 was too high, and 20/600 is too low.</blockquote>Raid gear has toughness and PvP crit mit to make up for the DPS gained now? Seriously people are short sighted.</blockquote>I don't think they are disputing that. I think what they are saying is that the best available gear in the game for BGing is not obtainable through actually playing in BG. If that is true or not seems to be subject to opinion. I think the best way to tell is to see what the most effective people in BG are wearing. I wear a mix of both and seem to do fine, not sure about others. Either way I had to raid 4h a night to get this gear I think I should be able to use it in BG and it be useful.

Notsovilepriest

10-22-2010, 07:01 PM

<cite>patrck17 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Notsovilepriest@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Neskonlith wrote:</cite><blockquote>Raid gear is effective in PVP, and now it is too effective with the recent 50% nerf to PVP - 40/600 was too high, and 20/600 is too low.</blockquote>Raid gear has toughness and PvP crit mit to make up for the DPS gained now? Seriously people are short sighted.</blockquote>I don't think they are disputing that. I think what they are saying is that the best available gear in the game for BGing is not obtainable through actually playing in BG. If that is true or not seems to be subject to opinion. I think the best way to tell is to see what the most effective people in BG are wearing. I wear a mix of both and seem to do fine, not sure about others. Either way I had to raid 4h a night to get this gear I think I should be able to use it in BG and it be useful.</blockquote>BG gear is so easy to get, and is still really good for what it's for, and like it was always before this expansion, raid gear can be a suppliment to the PvP/BG gear. I know I raid 5 days a week, 4 hrs a night, I win maybe 1 piece of loot a month recently, to act like raiders get gear from loot pinatas that require nothing is funny to me, like some are suggesting.

Dorsan

10-22-2010, 07:25 PM

I just want to return to my original intentions. I do not dispute the "hardships" nor "skill" of getting raid gear. All I am asking is for a definitive answer if the devs intended the raid gear to outperform BG gear in BGs or was it an unintentional consequence of the toughness nerf.

patrck17

10-22-2010, 07:55 PM

<cite>Dorsan@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>I just want to return to my original intentions. I do not dispute the "hardships" nor "skill" of getting raid gear. All I am asking is for a definitive answer if the devs intended the raid gear to outperform BG gear in BGs or was it an unintentional consequence of the toughness nerf.</blockquote>Despite my desire to keep wearing my raid gear in BG I will agree that this is a legitamit question. I will also suggest that at this point in the xpansion the devs probably don't give a ... crap.

Dreadpatch

10-22-2010, 08:03 PM

<cite>Jabib@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Elusion@Nektulos wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Neskonlith wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Luceus@Everfrost wrote:</cite><blockquote>It's very simple, if you have full T3 gear, full hole jewerly, and the stats mentioned in the OP, you've probably put in a lot more hours to this game than it takes to get a full set of BG's gear, so it's not an awful thing to be able to compete with BG players.. until one targets you and you drop dead in 3 hits that is.</blockquote>Why should PVE expect automatically to be unlimited when used in a different area of the game? When you look at the other major areas of the game, you see a different progression path available in each: PVP rewards are limited to PVP, and Crafting epic rewards are limited to crafting... can you imagine: "...If you have the solstice earring, the harvester cloak, and the crafting class epic, you've probably put in a lot more hours to this game than it takes to get a full set of BeeGees gear, so it's not an awful thing to be able to compete with raiders or PVPs..."Fear the spoon!<img src="/eq2/images/smilies/97ada74b88049a6d50a6ed40898a03d7.gif" border="0" /></blockquote>Um, last time I checked the BG gear is rather effective in every other PVE aspect of the game cept for raiding. I would say it's pretty solid gear for soloing and heroic content, so why shouldn't raid gear be effective in PVP?</blockquote>Because the mobs that gets owned dont pay money to sony to have fun playing their game.Thats one reason.</blockquote>I think if you read above, I said I still use several pieces of PVP gear, AND I have raid gear. If you are smart, you were a mix for increased dps and some defense. And guess what? I also pay to have fun playing Sony's game, and I has stopped playing the BG's for months because it blew after all the toughness stuff was out of hand and no one died. Now it's fun again, so your earth shattering change is bad for you, but might be good for many others that "pay" to play the game like myself. To say the BG gear is useless is a lie and BS. It's plenty effective and some pieces are better than raid gear for.... BG.PS, I still die plenty, but at least the relic for example changes teams a couple times and it's not up to who can run to it first at the start of the match.

Zacarus

10-22-2010, 08:17 PM

<cite>patrck17 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Dorsan@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>I just want to return to my original intentions. I do not dispute the "hardships" nor "skill" of getting raid gear. All I am asking is for a definitive answer if the devs intended the raid gear to outperform BG gear in BGs or was it an unintentional consequence of the toughness nerf.</blockquote>Despite my desire to keep wearing my raid gear in BG I will agree that this is a legitamit question. I will also suggest that at this point in the xpansion the devs probably don't give a ... crap.</blockquote>Good point.

Dorsan

10-22-2010, 08:29 PM

<cite>Elusion@Nektulos wrote:</cite><blockquote> To say the BG gear is useless is a lie and BS. It's plenty effective and some pieces are better than raid gear for.... BG.</blockquote>Okay, I have just made those damage/mitigation calculations to show the actual situation. Go back to page 1 and try to understand how the number crunching works. As you can easily see there, the best combination is to mix BG gear with raid gear. However, people who do not raid are unable to compete as of GU58, because full toughness gear is not competitive anymore.

Uinael_Guk

10-22-2010, 08:45 PM

<cite>Neskonlith wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Luceus@Everfrost wrote:</cite><blockquote>It's very simple, if you have full T3 gear, full hole jewerly, and the stats mentioned in the OP, you've probably put in a lot more hours to this game than it takes to get a full set of BG's gear, so it's not an awful thing to be able to compete with BG players.. until one targets you and you drop dead in 3 hits that is.</blockquote>Why should PVE expect automatically to be unlimited when used in a different area of the game? When you look at the other major areas of the game, you see a different progression path available in each: PVP rewards are limited to PVP, and Crafting epic rewards are limited to crafting... can you imagine: "...If you have the solstice earring, the harvester cloak, and the crafting class epic, you've probably put in a lot more hours to this game than it takes to get a full set of BeeGees gear, so it's not an awful thing to be able to compete with raiders or PVPs..."Fear the spoon!<img src="/eq2/images/smilies/97ada74b88049a6d50a6ed40898a03d7.gif" border="0" /></blockquote>I understand the point you're trying to make, but crafting is a horribly implemented aspect to the game, a clear after-thought and has nothing to do with PVE or PVP. They don't use the same skills, have a completely different experience bar, and you can gain max crafting level without doing an ounce of pve. PVE and PVP at least have much more in common with the biggest difference is that opposed to AI, you're fighting a human controlled opponent. In terms of 'lore' in the world, if you have gear that could survive damage from the hardest raid mobs, you should be able to at least match up against any other player. I've taken the time to fully gear up my alt Warlock for BG's, but I don't have a problem with some guy with t3 armor and hole jewelry being tough competition, and it's good for BG's if that's the case. If raiders, even entry level raiders, feel they can join BG's and not get absolutely slaughtered, maybe we'll see more people playing it. I know my gf's been playing her t3 raid geared dirge more in BG's since the changes, and I'd bet others are as well. I bet one on one I could take on any raid geared Warlock, but a Tyranny lock would likely give me a challenge and that's the way it probably should be imo. Combat is combat, but people here are putting too much emphasis on pvp vs pve. You don't gain pvp experience when you do bg's, you gain combat experience for a reason, you've been in combat.When they completely separate pvp xp and pve xp, use different spells for each and different types of gear / stats, then we can worry more about the difference between raid gear and pvp gear.

Zacarus

10-22-2010, 09:04 PM

<cite>Luceus@Everfrost wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Neskonlith wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Luceus@Everfrost wrote:</cite><blockquote>It's very simple, if you have full T3 gear, full hole jewerly, and the stats mentioned in the OP, you've probably put in a lot more hours to this game than it takes to get a full set of BG's gear, so it's not an awful thing to be able to compete with BG players.. until one targets you and you drop dead in 3 hits that is.</blockquote>Why should PVE expect automatically to be unlimited when used in a different area of the game? When you look at the other major areas of the game, you see a different progression path available in each: PVP rewards are limited to PVP, and Crafting epic rewards are limited to crafting... can you imagine: "...If you have the solstice earring, the harvester cloak, and the crafting class epic, you've probably put in a lot more hours to this game than it takes to get a full set of BeeGees gear, so it's not an awful thing to be able to compete with raiders or PVPs..."Fear the spoon!<img src="/eq2/images/smilies/97ada74b88049a6d50a6ed40898a03d7.gif" border="0" /></blockquote>I understand the point you're trying to make, but crafting is a horribly implemented aspect to the game, a clear after-thought and has nothing to do with PVE or PVP. They don't use the same skills, have a completely different experience bar, and you can gain max crafting level without doing an ounce of pve. PVE and PVP at least have much more in common with the biggest difference is that opposed to AI, you're fighting a human controlled opponent. In terms of 'lore' in the world, if you have gear that could survive damage from the hardest raid mobs, you should be able to at least match up against any other player. I've taken the time to fully gear up my alt Warlock for BG's, but I don't have a problem with some guy with t3 armor and hole jewelry being tough competition, and it's good for BG's if that's the case. If raiders, even entry level raiders, feel they can join BG's and not get absolutely slaughtered, maybe we'll see more people playing it. I know my gf's been playing her t3 raid geared dirge more in BG's since the changes, and I'd bet others are as well. I bet one on one I could take on any raid geared Warlock, but a Tyranny lock would likely give me a challenge and that's the way it probably should be imo. Combat is combat, but people here are putting too much emphasis on pvp vs pve. You don't gain pvp experience when you do bg's, you gain combat experience for a reason, you've been in combat.When they completely separate pvp xp and pve xp, use different spells for each and different types of gear / stats, then we can worry more about the difference between raid gear and pvp gear.</blockquote>I like the spirit of your post, but I'm sorry to inform you a raid geared warlock would melt your bg geared warlock into butter before you finished casting your second spell. *That* is a bet i would win!

Uinael_Guk

10-22-2010, 09:16 PM

I'll duel a guildmate of mine and see what happens. If he beats me (he shouldn't), I will be a bit bothered since we're still only at wing 2 and aren't even close to what the top guilds WW are.

Dorsan

10-22-2010, 09:23 PM

I am not sure if PVP only effects work in a duel on a PVE server at all. Either way let us know how it went.

Notsovilepriest

10-22-2010, 10:34 PM

Fiery Anniliation is static spell (No Variation in damage). For neither did I cast a single ward or proc effects before being hit.With Toughness:<img src="http://img196.imageshack.us/img196/3756/eq2000045.jpg" width="1440" height="850" />Without Toughness<img src="http://img230.imageshack.us/img230/7104/eq2000044.jpg" width="1440" height="850" />

Dorsan

10-22-2010, 10:42 PM

Yep, sounds about right, you got 44.75% damage reduction from toughness + PvP crit mit. Or, to look it on another way, your survivability got increased by 55% with toughness and PvP crit mit. However, even your toughness gear is a mix of raid/toughness gear. From that point to full toughness gear the gains would not be enough to justify taking out any further raid items. So to be effective, you must combine raid items even into your toughness gear. Full toughness gear is useless as you are not competitive if you do wear it. Which was my point all along.

Uinael_Guk

10-22-2010, 10:44 PM

Just duel'd him, his gear is mostly T3, 80 potency, 84 crit bonus, wing 1 and wing 2 right side, beat him and he got me to about 40%.His Plaguebringer hit me for 3748, mine hit him for 3722, but a nice bonus was the 2k extra HP's I have.Second round he opened with rift which stunned me a second, blew me up, got me to 20% but I took him from 100 to 0 before he did any more damage.The first two rounds I was also not really trying, basically just using my damage spells. I had more stuns and heals I could have used for a situation had he beaten me.Then we started matching spells:Third round we went back and forth with acid and dark pyre to compare damage with low damage dot's, it wasn't even close. He got me to 80% before I killed him, and my two wards combined with the toughness + crit mit made it very hard for him to land them on me.In the final round we went back and forth with our big single target nukes, plaguebringer and distortion with interesting results:Me Out - PB - 6256Him Out - PB - 6250Me - Dist - 2824Him - Dist - 2489Me - Dist - 3112Him - Dist - 2181Me - Dist - 2651Him - Dist - 3219Final HealthMe - 25%Him - 0%So when he can blast through my wards and hit me before they regen, it's a pretty close fight. One key factor, pvp potency didn't work in the duel. I was sitting at 7% potency, where I'm at 64% in Bg's. I don't know if it's a UI bug where it doesn't show the potency, or I really had 7% potency during my duel's, but that's a pretty big issue. If true, I would have likely destroyed him had I met up with him in a match.