Developers are about to create a HUGE imbalance between the summoner classes [Archive]

Germs666

10-10-2010, 05:44 PM

Unless Elemental Blast gets reworked when Time Warp goes live there will be no way for Necromancers to keep up with Conji's damage.Before only pampered Conji's had the luxury of getting their pet time warped , now their pets will get time warp for every Elemental Blast because both abilites will have a 2 min recast.Instead of making TW not affect pets, which would hurt Necros as well, I have a good idea.Elemental Blast-5 min recast-Elemental immunity, no other conji can use EB for 30 sec- unmodifiable by ability mod/double attack.Sound like a good idea?No? Well guess which spell needs to be revamped for necros before this change goes live?

kelvmor

10-10-2010, 06:10 PM

Lifeburn?

Exelance

10-10-2010, 07:24 PM

Hows about change LB?Lifeburn. does 10 tics to the target dealing 50% of the necros max health per tic. allow it to crit/SDA and be effected by POT/CB.only takes health for the first tic.

Germs666

10-10-2010, 08:27 PM

Lifeburn2 min recastno immunity so other necros get "dps blocked"ability mod/crit chance/crit bonus/double attackAccelerated Decay/UT adds appropriate ticks.I think that would be a fair exchange for EB in it's current form, considering it still involves healing.

Ironcleaver

10-10-2010, 08:36 PM

while your tinkering with lifeburn, also tinker with manaburn - that ability hasnt been useful for over 2+ years.

joseph

10-10-2010, 09:02 PM

look if your going to do this devs please remove the health loss effect of life burn or up necromancer pets dpsthis is really goign to mess up the balance of classes

Xalmat

10-10-2010, 09:37 PM

You all realize that Time Warp GREATLY speeds up how fast your DoTs tick right?Also it will be impossible to sync Time Warp and Elemental Blast except for every other TW. Time Warp's recast is significantly faster than Elemental Blast's.

Sigmaz01

10-10-2010, 10:04 PM

Excluding the fact that TW and EB wont really be up at the same time it would be nice to see a buff to Life Burn and Mana burn to keep up :0 or fix undead horde hehe either way it is a bit bigger buff for conjs then it is for necros on these changes to TW.

Exelance

10-11-2010, 01:35 AM

Just because TW will be up faster than EB doesn't really matter in the long run. what illy is going to cast it every time its up? not going ot get much use out of it that way.still are going to wait for Dispatch or other major buffs/debuffs.

Masuma

10-11-2010, 02:19 AM

<cite>Xalmat wrote:</cite><blockquote>You all realize that Time Warp GREATLY speeds up how fast your DoTs tick right?Also it will be impossible to sync Time Warp and Elemental Blast except for every other TW. Time Warp's recast is significantly faster than Elemental Blast's.</blockquote>That and:- there are other things that are other very important abilities that Elemental Blast needs to be timed with: - Planeshift up + using Elemental Blast when the mob is very debuffed can often create more dps than a noncritting and badly timed, but double hitting Elemental blast.- if the illusionist uses Timewarp very early in the fight I might have to avoid casting Elemental Blast while it's up because the sudden spike damage is likely to give my pet agro, which means I will frontal the raid and, especially if it is a named fight, lose plane shift - which means a siginificant loss of DPSDon't get me wrong, I think it's a great chance but I don't think you have to be as worried.I do however think that Lifeburn should have less HP penalty, I feel bad for necros when I hear healers say: "Your Lifeburn screws up my DPS".

Ragnaphore

10-11-2010, 06:09 AM

<cite>Xalmat wrote:</cite><blockquote>You all realize that Time Warp GREATLY speeds up how fast your DoTs tick right?</blockquote>Unless they remove the cap for +ticks to Dots, it's still useless except for Bloodcoil in PvE.

thog_zork

10-11-2010, 06:17 AM

wow askign for nerf of other classes are really the lamest thing to do ...why not ask for buff to your class instead ?you know that for most good conjuror it will make it harder to timewarp an EB ?because coordination was not the problem but now TW will be up before EB and the illuionist will cast it almost ever when up ;( so basically it is a nerf to conjuror in a raid which works together a.k.a. good raid and a buff to the ones which are not that well organized

Faeward

10-11-2010, 06:38 AM

I don't play a summoner but my friend did. He played a Necro. I do think that the Necro abilities need to be checked out.I believe Lifeburn should crit. I think the fact that Lifeburn draining health should stick and it should drain as much health as it does right now. It seems about right. When I am healing a Necro performing a Lifeburn, I barely notice their health drop with the HoT's keeping them up. Lifeburn is IMO a much more useful ability than Manaburn as power is many times more difficult to regenerate than health.Also something really cool awesome like Elemental Blast. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Germs666

10-11-2010, 10:03 AM

I will not be impossible to time at all. You can use ACT to set up timers. I'm sure the illy would also wait an extra 20 sec if EB wasn't up because it would have the potential to bring so much more damage.I know plane shift won't be up until on every 3rd EB but having 100% double attack every 2 min and Elemental blast every 2 minutes would almost be the equivalent of having EB on a 1 min recast.So in theory you could have an SK,Illy,3 conjis and a healer in 1 group and just EB everything to death because there is no immunity on that spell like Lifeburn has.Any Conji who claims EB is not overpowered is in serious denial. Even the top WW necro thinks EB in it's current state is insanely OP. Go on EQ2 flames and look up Oonej. He's getting EB and Time Warp to break 1 million damage.I'm not asking for a direct nerf to EB itself, I'm asking the devs to look at lifeburn seriously and I want them to address why lifeburn needs to have a damage immunity for 30 seconds when EB doesn't. I also want to know why EB has such a short recast since beta changed it. If they let this go live before they, boost lifeburn or nerf EB that will just show that the devs have no regards for class balance issues at all.oh and btw Thog did you betray from the necro class when SF hit? I would be in denial about EB being overpowered as well if I betrayed.

thog_zork

10-11-2010, 10:13 AM

Why ask for a nerf ? i do not deny that conjuror are dps wise where they belong however necros need a boost ..nerfing EB would only set back conjuror back from their place ... right now there are were they belong dmg wise below wizzard/lock/assa and on a level with rougues/rangerbut please note that i agree that necros need some urgent love ! e.g. LB, swarm pet to dots (or something) and dot stacking. nerfing conjuror dps will not help you a necro at all !So why nerf conjuror dps to bring them on par with necros (who right now are underpowered) instead of buffing/fixing necros ?

theriatis

10-11-2010, 10:27 AM

Hi,because thats the way peoples brains here work...Nerf other classes because i do less DPS / have less Utility / need more Taunts / etc., instead of fixing the own class...Last time as a fix/change for a (specific) Spell of a specific Class was included in Hotfixes, a cryout from the oppositeclass came and told the Devs that this change will overpower this class... and instead of wanting a fix themselves for abroken ability they had, which would have put them on par with that other class, they demanded a nerf to that Spell...Go Figure.Regards, theriatis.

Masuma

10-11-2010, 11:09 AM

yes it is nice and fun sometimes to have a spike damage spell, it is nice to be able to try and time it perfectly well in order to get max dps out of it. Only experienced / skilled conjurors will do that though. Most of the other conjis I met where surprised when I said, time your stuff with dispatch for example.The disadvantage of nice spiking fun spells is though that it makes my pet die more often. Not all tanks and only well buffed once hold the really high spiking Elemental Blast hits.Zonewide, in most zones, EB seems to sit at around 10% of my zonewide for me. I don't think that is overpowered compared to other classes SF end abilties. A warlock friend of mine, while doing less DPS zonewide, had more DPS from his SF endability (Dark Overflow + Dark Aggravation).Cap for extra tick on dots is really stupid, though, and should be removed.

Valdaglerion

10-11-2010, 06:54 PM

It has taken conjs years to get some loving while necros shined and now you want to nerf the class because of something you think might happen and how it might not be fair to you.In all honestly, you can betray and be a conj. If you want to keep playing the necro then figure out what is broken in your class and ask for those to be fixed. I didnt see you asking to give the conj heals, rez, another heavy nuke or any other utility. I must have missed those requests in your post.

Seiffil

10-11-2010, 07:18 PM

<cite>thog_zork wrote:</cite><blockquote>Why ask for a nerf ? i do not deny that conjuror are dps wise where they belong however necros need a boost ..nerfing EB would only set back conjuror back from their place ... right now there are were they belong dmg wise below wizzard/lock/assa and on a level with rougues/ranger</blockquote>People shouldn't be asking for another class to be nerfed, but that doesn't mean that they can't make the claim that conjurors will clearly benefit more from the timewarp change because of its effectiveness with EB. Would be better to try to talk about getting spell DA to work better, cause as it is now, it's much better for a class that relies on DD for damage then a class that uses dots most extensively.And conjurors shouldn't be on par with rangers btw, rangers are "supposed" to be t1 dps, so conjurors should be below them.

Germs666

10-11-2010, 07:47 PM

I'm just really tired of people saying that summoners are becoming t1 dps because it's only one summoner and it's because of EB and the pet gear/mechanics.The developers said that they thought EB was going to mean instant death for the pet and it's going to be looked at, yet they go ahead and pretend the TW change won't enhance EB even further??!!It just seems really irresponsible. Spell double attack and multi attack are just going to create more imbalances.

acctlc

10-13-2010, 02:00 AM

Implement shared stats so a certain someones pet isn't reaching top lvls of 150+ potency (more should they get the fabled pet items in the new hardmode arcanum instance) potency when they hit EB, and tweak the class appropriately dps wise and problem solved. I guarantee you EB will longer be a concern and even with the ability to double won't be hititng as high. Zw however I'd agree EB is about where it should be..bout 10%. I don't see that jumping much just because of groupwide TW. Can necro's do 10% zw with lifeburn? Honestly I dunno but probably. Should it be easier for them and should they be able to..absolutely.As always tho I must point out, summoners are without a clear purpose this or any xpac without dps considered. Stoneskins? Get a dirge if you need them. Raidwide buff....not exactly a reason to run one unless his parse is stellar tbh. Etox? Nice but zw not really that impressive, you want aoe damage you can hire a lock. Unless the game developers can come up with a reason you *have* to run a summoner..and I mean really have to, dps needs to be extremely competitive but shared stats would take the extremely overpowered ones out of the equation thanks to their perfect picking and choosing of pet effects and remove the itemizations headaches from the rest of us!

Solarax

10-28-2010, 11:43 PM

personally if they just decided to greatly increase LB i would call it even but they would have to make it worthwhile.btw i have epic Necro and illy and 2 ( Yes 2) Conjurors all on the same account. next is lock since i hav a baby wiz too

JenoJeno

10-29-2010, 12:17 PM

a good necro can keep up with a conj with no problem (assuming same group buffs / vc's / etc) for end gear raiding.There have been times i was out parsed by a necro, and others where i beat the wizard. It all boils down to the duration of the fight.Our planeshift is only good for 1 minute which makes our pet a god for short fights. We are lucky if we can get planeshift off for more than 1 time a fight. So, 1 minute of a little extra potency / crit chance / etc is for our burst damage. Once that wears off, we lose crit chance, making the necro / wizard / etc able to slowly gain on us since they have more long duration fight damage.But I do have to agree that necro's should have their lifeburn optimized for raiding. Less health reduction would be a good start. Our eb is direct damage, where a necro needs a big heal incomin for the 10 ticks, which makes it a bit tricky to get off during a hard encounter with nasty aoe's. So if I would suggest anything, just remove that.Another thing, conjurors reuse on EB (with endgear) is aprox. 1:47 seconds in raids give or take a few for those with a little more reuseAn Illies TW (endgear) is aprox. 1:22 seconds. This leaves 25 seconds an illy would have to sit on TW before casting it in order to wait for our EB which can be annoying.So we can either a) wait for TW for the next run or just go without it from there on out because they will never meet up again for a while...If we assume that the illy cast's TW right when its up vs the time a conj casts EB (every time its up) it looks as if we can get in on the first TW and the 4th TW.We would have to wait 7 seconds to cast our 4th eb if this were the cast to time it with TW, which will then restart this table time order.<table cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0" width="128"><col span="2" width="64"></col> <tbody><tr height="20"><td width="64" height="20" align="right">0</td> <td width="64" align="right">0</td></tr> <tr height="20"><td height="20" align="right">1:22</td> <td align="right">1:47</td></tr> <tr height="20"><td height="20" align="right">2:44</td> <td align="right">3:34</td></tr> <tr height="20"><td height="20" align="right">4:06</td> <td align="right">5:21</td></tr> <tr height="20"><td height="20" align="right">5:28</td> <td align="right">7:08</td></tr></tbody></table>

Hirofortis

10-29-2010, 02:05 PM

LOL, I love peeps that cry nerf. Why don't you play a conjy and realize that we can't just eb willy nilly. TW + EB = a dead conjy unless things are just right. We can't just eb every time we see a tw. Would be nice, but not realistic. Not to mention if you look at the parse over a long fight it is actually pretty balanced. What you should be doing instead of whining is offer constructive ideas on how the necro can be fixed. The conjy is hitting right where they should be. Stop with the nerf garbage and work at fixing. I have watched my conjy be useless for years now, even longer than sk's and now that we actually can do our job you want to nerf it. Give it a rest. I would love to see where a good necro is parsing at. Then lets compare and offer suggestions to fix necros. Stop with the nerf calls. SOE already nerfs thigns bad enough without whiners adding to the list. <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Solarax

10-29-2010, 03:23 PM

having both i can say my better geared necro still does lower parses in groups and has more AA especially in short fights, thats why i say just bring up necros to be on par, no need to nerf conji ( not just because i have 2 of them myself)

Davngr1

10-30-2010, 03:31 AM

the necro class has been ignored since RoK and dev's continue giveing the class stupid abilities with penaltys that aren't justified by the low damage potential. i don't want my necro to be easy mode but for god sake UNDERSTAND that my necro is NOT fun to play because he DIES from regular game play! that IS NOT COOL specially when he's not even close to other dps classes.. seriously remove the reetarded health penalties and lower lifeburn/undead horde recast and call it a day. that can be done in one of the hot fixes .. it requires no new aa and no revamp of current class mechanics. simple, please do it. of course it's no surprice that this thread has recived no attention from red names.

Exelance

10-30-2010, 03:48 AM

I Really think this thread needs more constructive ideas and less /nerf /wrists whining that the necros are doing. I played a Necro in ROK, early TSO. they were hard, i died a bit to LB. they need buffing. I prefer my conjy over the necro now. its more fun.I've watched the classes be nerfed and be useless for years. i am finnaly happy with my choice of main. I play a summoner because i like the challenge. i have the ability to top parses on rare occasions. if i work hard i can do it. am i supposed to top them all the time? no. i fall below the Sorcs, Assassins. normally just above the swashy depending on the fight. sometimes below them.On a bad pull i will end up below the chanters and bards. why? i messed up and did something wrong.I do not believe in the DPS Tiers but its hard wired into the game and i have to live with it. but i always on edge about my class. If Velious comes and the class is changed to the point were i am unable to even have the chance to top a parse (not always and not on ultra rare occasions ether) i most likely will move on. there are other games on the verge of release that i am already planning on playing.But ether way. Lets get a bit more Buffage ideas here from necros on what you think will make you better. not the nerf nerf nerf bull ****. Buff LB, Reduse the damage. take away the HP drain. let it be effected by CRIT/CB/POT/SDA. fix all the dumbfire pets so they are AE immune. reduse the reuse on UH and max the number of pets it summons and ajust the max numbers a bit. Fix Spell douple attack problem on DOTS ether by doubleing the damage or adding a second dot all together.

Mosha D'Khan

10-30-2010, 12:19 PM

<cite>Hirofortis@Everfrost wrote:</cite><blockquote>LOL, I love peeps that cry nerf. Why don't you play a conjy and realize that we can't just eb willy nilly. TW + EB = a dead conjy unless things are just right. We can't just eb every time we see a tw. Would be nice, but not realistic. Not to mention if you look at the parse over a long fight it is actually pretty balanced. What you should be doing instead of whining is offer constructive ideas on how the necro can be fixed. The conjy is hitting right where they should be. Stop with the nerf garbage and work at fixing. I have watched my conjy be useless for years now, even longer than sk's and now that we actually can do our job you want to nerf it. Give it a rest. I would love to see where a good necro is parsing at. Then lets compare and offer suggestions to fix necros. Stop with the nerf calls. SOE already nerfs thigns bad enough without whiners adding to the list. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" /></blockquote>enough with the crappy dead conjy stuff. it is sad you are using that reasoning. all it takes is 1 snap from a fighter to get it back, if you die it is because the tank is afk auto attacking. and a 1million hit to a what 300k LB is way OP, unless you were to uncap dots, make it crit, with pot, CB, and take away the life drain effect. you realize that a necro dies way easier than a conjy when using theirs because i lose heals and die to an AE. were you just get agro and have a lazy tank that does not want to burn a snap.so please enough with we are not OP, because you are and you know it. you just dont want a nerf to you like every fighter got. and making everyone on par by buffing the class is not the way to go because it makes mob/zone/raid to easy.on a final note, last i saw rangers where one par with assassins because of the range fixing, so if you are on par with rangers that means you are on par with assassins.

Samulbrar

11-01-2010, 03:29 PM

This post has moved: <a href="/eq2/posts/preList.m?topic_id=450973&post_id=5447932" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">/eq2/posts/preList.m?topic_id=45097...post_id=5447932</a> Troll comment.

Rhadamanth

11-01-2010, 04:09 PM

<cite>Hirofortis@Everfrost wrote:</cite><blockquote>I would love to see where a good necro is parsing at. Then lets compare and offer suggestions to fix necros. </blockquote>In the Top End Guild Parse thread, there were two posts where a conjy and a necro were respectively the top parsers. The conjuror was at ~125k and the necro was ~62k. The guild with the conjy was obviously much better because of how quickly they killed Rathgar, but necros generally need time to do their dps because of their dots. So, I am not sure this necro would have seen enough of an increase to match 125k had he been in that fight. Considering a conjy has the potential to double the dps of a necro, I think necros need some help. Allowing LB to benefit from stats, changing dumbfires to dots, and changing the tick mechanics of dots should be a good start.

Ironcleaver

11-01-2010, 07:43 PM

<cite>Exelance@Butcherblock wrote:</cite><blockquote>Buff LB, Reduse the damage. take away the HP drain. let it be effected by CRIT/CB/POT/SDA.</blockquote>Id agree with this as long as it is done to Manaburn as well (power instead of health though). I haven't seen a necro die from using Lifeburn in ages in raids. Manaburning, no Wizard will do in raids. It's nice burst in damage, but no damage at all after, just not worth it. There the old debate that an enchanter will just give you your power back. Nice in theory, but once they notice/care, a wizards dps will be bottom of the barrel too long.Anyway just my two cents - those fighting for Lifeburn to be boosted, I agree with, just don't forget manaburn since it is in far worst shape.[note: manaburn is effected by some potancy, but it really dosent make it any better due to its down side.]

Germs666

11-02-2010, 02:12 AM

If you don't think EB is overpowered you eitherA: Have no idea at all and don't play a summoner or a dps class at that.B: Play a conji and you're keeping quiet.At this point in the game conjis:1 - Do more single target dps2- do more multi target dps3- have better group utilityI really can't make it any more simple. (Even for the Templar giving everyone minus points? I wish I could post this in braille since he can't read)Cisgo is probably the only unbiased voice on this issue considering he plays both classes.

Davngr1

11-02-2010, 02:16 AM

<cite>Ironcleaver wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Exelance@Butcherblock wrote:</cite><blockquote>Buff LB, Reduse the damage. take away the HP drain. let it be effected by CRIT/CB/POT/SDA.</blockquote>Id agree with this as long as it is done to Manaburn as well (power instead of health though). I haven't seen a necro die from using Lifeburn in ages in raids. Manaburning, no Wizard will do in raids. It's nice burst in damage, but no damage at all after, just not worth it. There the old debate that an enchanter will just give you your power back. Nice in theory, but once they notice/care, a wizards dps will be bottom of the barrel too long.Anyway just my two cents - those fighting for Lifeburn to be boosted, I agree with, just don't forget manaburn since it is in far worst shape.[note: manaburn is effected by some potancy, but it really dosent make it any better due to its down side.]</blockquote> that's why wizards that manaburn ask a mystic to tap the mob. also wizards aren't exactly hurting on the dps front. unlike necros who got the short end of the stick for a few expansions now starting with the useless vampirisim in rok and the final slap in the face recieving a weak end line with a large health penalty while the ohter dps classes recived huge boost with zero penalty.

Germs666

11-02-2010, 02:21 AM

I see no point either in all of the health penalties and damage restrictions/caps on our lifetaps and lifeburn when no other class gets penalized for doing T2 dps....

Solarax

11-02-2010, 09:43 AM

<cite>Germs666 wrote:</cite><blockquote>Cisgo is probably the only unbiased voice on this issue considering he plays both classes.</blockquote>umn what about me since i play both and an illy?

Davngr1

11-04-2010, 04:14 PM

-BUMP-will my necro recieve any attention this expac?

Haapy

11-07-2010, 08:54 PM

<cite>Germs666 wrote:</cite><blockquote>I see no point either in all of the health penalties and damage restrictions/caps on our lifetaps and lifeburn when no other class gets penalized for doing T2 dps....</blockquote>I think some rangers might have something to say about that <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />Seriously though, I play both, and conj does rule in dps in raids, however, i feel that in regular, non-optimized groups they are about equal. I think my necro actually bring a little bit more utility than a conj in terms of tiny heal (saved some fights) and a rez. Soloing is not even a contest, TH is far more OP for that than EB is for raiding if you are going to compare two classes. Necro's need some love in LB, ooze pet, snare, and the UH, but I would not mind at all if their potential raw dps remains at 90% of the conj.I am sure some replies will be "I do not care about soloing or grouping", but then, it is stupid to compare classes without looking at how they play at ALL aspects of the game. I, for one, would never want a nerf to TH or removal of our fd just so I can do a little bit more dps.

Davngr1

11-07-2010, 09:58 PM

<cite>Haapy wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Germs666 wrote:</cite><blockquote>I see no point either in all of the health penalties and damage restrictions/caps on our lifetaps and lifeburn when no other class gets penalized for doing T2 dps....</blockquote>I think some rangers might have something to say about that <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" />Seriously though, I play both, and conj does rule in dps in raids, however, i feel that in regular, non-optimized groups they are about equal. I think my necro actually bring a little bit more utility than a conj in terms of tiny heal (saved some fights) and a rez. Soloing is not even a contest, TH is far more OP for that than EB is for raiding if you are going to compare two classes. Necro's need some love in LB, ooze pet, snare, and the UH, but I would not mind at all if their potential raw dps remains at 90% of the conj.I am sure some replies will be "I do not care about soloing or grouping", but then, it is stupid to compare classes without looking at how they play at ALL aspects of the game. I, for one, would never want a nerf to TH or removal of our fd just so I can do a little bit more dps.</blockquote>this is exactly the dumb thinking that destroyed this class. people invite healers to heal and rez. they DONT invite summoners to heal and rez.. they invite summoners to DPS and if one summoner does more dps then that summoner is superior at the MAIN function of the class and thus there is NO BALANCE. btw .. stone skin > necro heal utillity wise.

snowli

11-10-2010, 03:19 PM

Actually I think groupwide timewarp might benefit the necro more than the conjy, afterall a much higher percentage of the necro's dps comes from themselves so they can cast smart during the timewarp period. Conversely conjy have a much higher dps portion via their pet, and yes conjy have activated pet temp abilities, but if they are activating them the conjy can't cast anything for themselves, like damage, and any pet is going to cast dumb during timewarp.It's the same whinge as I've heard sorcs who don't understand the conjuror class make: conjy get double use out of timewarp. But, while activating pet stuff during timewarp the conjy can't cast one of their personal dps things at the same time, so actually where the wizard is getting 100% use out of whatever they cast for TWarp, the conjy is typically boosting their pet dps (if something is up) at the expense of their personal dps or the reverse and getting just a partial boost out of the same Twarp.Good necros have not that dissimilar dps to conjurors from what I've personally seen.

Mosha D'Khan

11-11-2010, 03:26 PM

<cite>snowline wrote:</cite><blockquote>Actually I think groupwide timewarp might benefit the necro more than the conjy, afterall a much higher percentage of the necro's dps comes from themselves so they can cast smart during the timewarp period. Conversely conjy have a much higher dps portion via their pet, and yes conjy have activated pet temp abilities, but if they are activating them the conjy can't cast anything for themselves, like damage, and any pet is going to cast dumb during timewarp.It's the same whinge as I've heard sorcs who don't understand the conjuror class make: conjy get double use out of timewarp. But, while activating pet stuff during timewarp the conjy can't cast one of their personal dps things at the same time, so actually where the wizard is getting 100% use out of whatever they cast for TWarp, the conjy is typically boosting their pet dps (if something is up) at the expense of their personal dps or the reverse and getting just a partial boost out of the same Twarp.Good necros have not that dissimilar dps to conjurors from what I've personally seen.</blockquote>how does TW effect any necro at all? the only things that will benifit from Spell double attack would be our lifetap and AE? our DOTs are capped in ticks most of the time so SDAing them does nothing, our pets (if i remember right) are mostly a DOT type caster too... so not much benafit there either.... mind explaining it abit more?

snowli

11-11-2010, 09:19 PM

Dot is another way of saying a nuke, with front loaded ability mod on first tick, that has repeating bonus damage if the mob's still alive, like in raid situations. Necro's do have lots of dots, but dots are hardly some special necro only thing, most classes have them, some have lots of dots.Yes timewarp doesn't do good for doubling the bonus ticks but what about the front-end? I know sorcs especially wizards direct nukes have it better with twarp, but timewarp isn't anywhere as useless for necros as for healers say.About 25% of a necro's damage comes off it's pet while the necro is busy doing the other 75% of their dps, so you can cast smart during twarp and use the best of your available personal skills. The assertion being made here that some massive balance shift has arrived... it just isn't the case in the raid parses I see, our conjy and necro are broadly doing the same as before the twarp change, sorcs did get a boost though, and the reason I suspect is the part that is being conveniently overlooked, which is:To get their dps conjy has to be activating special stuff that gets channeled through the conjy pet, which necros aren't forced to do, and when conjy's are doing that they aren't doing other things, like personal dps abilities. The conjy is far more pet dependant and pet's always cast just as dumb during buff focal points as they dumbcast any other time.If you want to say sorcs, especially wizards, got more out of groupwide timewarp than summoners I'd support that theory, and I see a small but noticeable effect when we raid. However saying necros got much worse deal than conjy, my raid parses aren't showing those figures.

Cisgo

11-12-2010, 07:34 PM

Have you ever seen a time warped Elemental Blast? This is not a pet activated ability, it is a conjuror activated ability (through the pet). What necros are saying is that there is nothing in thier DPS arsenal that comes close to that in terms of taking advantage of the TW buff. Any "decently" raid geared conjuror can get close to 1 mil on a time warped EB (because EB is subject to crits, etc.), some can exceed that. Necros can Lifetap and DoT the hell out of it for the 5 sec duration and still not get anywhere near that in return. I make my observations from a high end raiding standpoint. However, the balance issues may be alot less noticeable from a solo/group level and with this I understand where some may have different opinions. But, talking in terms of raiding and endgame the OP's title is very accurate.

Masuma

11-12-2010, 10:54 PM

I am a conji. I believe in timing abilities. I always try to time with dispatch when we have a brigand in raid, which we unfortunately don't have recently.I usually outparse necros but I also outparsed the other two conjis I raided with in the past by just as much. Reason I say that is: You can not just take one parse and point and say: Oh look the conji here does much more damage than the necro. Are you looking at people with the same skill level and same buffs and same gear?About timewarp:I believe groupwide timewarp has not affected my parse. Why?.. because it is not on the same reuse. I sometimes find myself holding back Elemental Bast so I can time it with TW. And then it sometimes does not happen.. Holding back: Loss of DPS. Holding it back and then when TW is up, the crit proc is not up: Loss of DPS. When I happen to use EB with TW: yay, fun! (Unfortunately, my pet sometimes ends up with agro if timewarp was casted too early. Our Wizard does not seem to have that problem.)Conjurors have only one dps ability that is really worthwhile trying to use with TW. If that ability is not up, we won't notice timewarp much.Sorcerers have more dps abilities that they can hit and get nice extra dps. I imagine they do not depend on timing it as conjis would do.You know what I recently love to hit when timewarp is up? group stoneskin, when specced, personal stoneskin, pet deathsave.You really should not call nerf just because you feel one of the summoner classes does better than the other one. Last expansion it was hard for summoners to even find a group for instances because people expected no dps and not enough utility to justify it. Now we do well, both summoner classes do. Necros do seem to need some attention, like "remove cap on extra dot ticks" and "remove mob life burn immunity", i admitted that before. Write about that and you have my support.Meanwhile be happy that most of your dps comes from you and not your pet and enjoy that you are less effected by the fact that for some slots it is so difficult to get any good upgrades (from legendary) with pet focus unless your guild can kill the couple hardest raid mobs of the expansion. Enjoy that your pet has more HP and that when you look at your zonewide dps, the damage that shows up under your name (you+pet) is closer to 100% than whatever my pet and me have as average.PS still shaking my head.. why do necros even compare lifeburn with elemental blast when they are abilities from different expansions? When necros already had lifeburn, conjis had no big spike ability at all. Compare your SF end ability with ours and whinge about the cap on extra dots instead.

Germs666

11-13-2010, 11:39 PM

Quoted from Oonej on another eq2 site About the difference between conjis and necros:"II've raided end gear material for a while now. We have a HUGE mage setup. 2 Warlocks, 1 Wizard, 1 Necro, 1 Conj. The necro typically NEVER beat me on the parse. The warlocks have a hard time keeping up against me, the only real challenge is beating the wizard. They are great dps, no doubt. But with the end raid gear, I've had no problems out parsing the necro every time. And to paint the picture even more clearer, I never get raid buffs (UT or TC) during raids. Since i'm usually in the group with the wizard and warlock, they get them over me and yet, i'm still 3-5 k under the wizard on long fights. On shorter fights, no one can hold up to a conj (imo) with all their temps up. I can do over 1.2 mil eb's, etc..."Does this sound balanced?

Masuma

11-13-2010, 11:55 PM

Weird, after my experience conjis do better on longer or named fights than they do on short fights.There are exceptions of course: EB was up when TW was hit and it happened to crit without plane shift. I tend to keep plane shift for named fights unless there is much trash between the nameds like in underfoot (plane shift has a long reuse) and without the pet is under 50% crit chance (that is with troub). A double hitting, non criting EB can easily do less damage than a normal (single) hitting, critting EB on a debuffed mob.Dear developers, please give necros a fun AA end ability next expansion so they are happier again and leave conjis alone.

Germs666

11-14-2010, 02:46 PM

<cite>Shalin@Runnyeye wrote:</cite><blockquote>PS still shaking my head.. why do necros even compare lifeburn with elemental blast when they are abilities from different expansions? When necros already had lifeburn, conjis had no big spike ability at all. Compare your SF end ability with ours and whinge about the cap on extra dots instead.</blockquote>Elemental Blast is simply a better version of Lifeburn. There are no damage limits,minimal risk, more damage and a faster recast.Pre SF necromancers actually had the chance to out parse conjis on single target encounters though on multi target encounters conjis would do better dps. Now we are getting smoked when TW is up!

Masuma

11-14-2010, 02:54 PM

<cite>Germs666 wrote:</cite><blockquote>Elemental Blast is simply a better version of Lifeburn. </blockquote>you make no sense here.anyway, all i am saying is, stop calling for nerf of classes that finally got some love and instead ask for fixes for the necro problems.

Germs666

11-14-2010, 03:00 PM

I meant they got a better version of our huge single target damage spell. I don't care if they leave EB as is if they would remove the damage limit and immunity from lifeburn,cut its recast and let it be modified by crit,crit bonus,ability mod,DA and get the 2 extra ticks from AD

nitrous

12-12-2010, 11:59 AM

<cite>Shalin@Runnyeye wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Germs666 wrote:</cite><blockquote>Elemental Blast is simply a better version of Lifeburn. </blockquote>you make no sense here.anyway, all i am saying is, stop calling for nerf of classes that finally got some love and instead ask for fixes for the necro problems.</blockquote>Tottally agree. Lets not re-nerf the Conj but fix the necros. Conjs took a big nerf back in year 1 and it took all this time for them to get loving back.

Xeresta

02-21-2011, 09:11 PM

<cite>Davngr1 wrote:</cite><blockquote>-BUMP-will my necro recieve any attention this expac?</blockquote>Well, the answer was NO and in DoV ..... <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" />. SoE only think in conjurors again. Play another toon o left the game. These are the two options you have, because if some day they HEAR the necros, will be not to fix them (are a broken class) will be for nerf the conjis (is the SoE policy, the "easy" way).

BetaTester

03-14-2011, 09:40 PM

a Necro has top parse of all my runs through Ring War ... things can't be tooooo bad

acctlc

03-20-2011, 05:59 AM

You notice they all got *really* quiet after launch. Hate to say I told you so in beta...but [Removed for Content]..I told you so in beta <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Solarax

03-20-2011, 07:41 AM

morelike most of us stopped playing. I havent logged in and played in 2 weeks and neither has 2 other necro mains i know.

Hardain

03-21-2011, 03:09 PM

Well i'm parsing like mad in DoV, and so are other decent necros i've seen. Not the highest DPSing class out there, but still pretty [Removed for Content] good.But still there are alot of things to fix, not solely necro related, mainly DoT cap and dumbfire pets still being ******.

Nrgy

03-23-2011, 12:16 PM

<cite>Arieva@Oasis wrote:</cite><blockquote>You notice they all got *really* quiet after launch. Hate to say I told you so in beta...but [Removed for Content]..I told you so in beta <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" /></blockquote> All the Original issues and arguments STILL exist and will continue until SOE releases their promised of a Class Manifesto concerning archetypes. The four class types with their three areas of focus and the two counterparts are still unstated. It has and will continue to be how players view the classes until stated differently by SOE. Each set being similar but in different ways. <ul><li>Sorcerers Wizard – Warlock</li><li>Druids Warden – Fury</li><li>Crusaders Paladin – Shadow Knight </li><li>Summoners Conjuror – Necromancer </li><li>Etc…</li></ul> Lifeburn and EB are the high damage single target mechanic for Summoners and should be, in some ways, on par with each other. As it stands now EB is 10 times greater with far less risk then Lifeburn and EVERYONE knows it! When released Lifeburn was on par with EB and was reduced for whatever reason by more then 60% not even mentioning the immunity lockout or the much longer refresh timers. Since then and since EB was added the Archetypes have a huge disparity which needs to be leveled. Now with DOV the DOT mechanic is even worse. Mobs constantly cure DOTS not allowing them to ‘tick’ for anywhere near their full duration. DOT stacking remains an issue. Lifeburn lockout immunity, especially in ring wars, is a big issue. Is it true that Necromancers are parsing high? Yes! I have personally parsed top 1 or 2 in dozens of full or multi-raid PQ’s. People can be lazy during these types of events, but I doubt thats the case over the course of 40+ people in dozens of events over several weeks of play over an entire servers population. Take what you will from this FACT as I have the parses to prove it. That does not mean that broken mechanics or unequal archetype parity is not still an issue or that it should some how not be corrected or addressed in someway, even if SOE states that’s the way they intended it to be. It is their place to say so and only their place. Conjurors trying to stifle these truths or pretending they don’t exist in hopes that they (Conjurors) don’t receive an EB reduction (NERF) rather then Necromancers receive a fix to the broken mechanics (DOTS) or parity in spell output (LIFEBURN) is just plain sad.