Did no one forsee this problem in development? [Archive]

View Full Version : Did no one forsee this problem in development?

Fadedspirit

10-05-2010, 05:56 PM

<cite>PatchNotes wrote:</cite><blockquote>Participants should visit Antonica (10-39), Enchanted Lands (40-69) or Kylong Plains (70+) to test their might!<ul type="disc"><li style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt;">Participants must now defend and attack within each Warfield. </li><li style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt;">Participants will need to destroy the enemy towers to win. (6 Tokens) </li><li style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt;">Failure to defeat the towers will result in a draw. (3 Tokens) </li><li style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt;">Failure to defend the towers will result in a loss. (2 Tokens) </li><li style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt;">Event will continue to spawn every two hours. </li></ul> Additional Open PvP changes: <ul type="disc"><li style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt;">All zones are now set to an 8 level PvP range. </li></ul></blockquote>Above are the patchnotes that were posted in regards to pvp, and these notes caused a stir in our guild when I mentioned one thing. That one thing, was "So, can't a group of 80's dominate the WF's and 'ninja' the WF away from the hundreds of 90s prowling KP trying to 'defend' their towers?" Is there something I'm missing here, or does anyone ELSE believe that KP should ONLY be for 80-90s, and REMAIN at 10 levels of pvp? It just seems assinine to do something like this.fyi: With the current system they're putting forth, a group of 80s would be unattackable by a group of 90s, and would be able to destroy the lvl 90's towers in KP uncontested.

Wytie

10-05-2010, 06:05 PM

<cite>Fadedspirit wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>PatchNotes wrote:</cite><blockquote>Participants should visit Antonica (10-39), Enchanted Lands (40-69) or Kylong Plains (70+) to test their might!<ul type="disc"><li style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt;">Participants must now defend and attack within each Warfield. </li><li style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt;">Participants will need to destroy the enemy towers to win. (6 Tokens) </li><li style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt;">Failure to defeat the towers will result in a draw. (3 Tokens) </li><li style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt;">Failure to defend the towers will result in a loss. (2 Tokens) </li><li style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt;">Event will continue to spawn every two hours. </li></ul> Additional Open PvP changes: <ul type="disc"><li style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt;">All zones are now set to an 8 level PvP range. </li></ul></blockquote>Above are the patchnotes that were posted in regards to pvp, and these notes caused a stir in our guild when I mentioned one thing. That one thing, was "So, can't a group of 80's dominate the WF's and 'ninja' the WF away from the hundreds of 90s prowling KP trying to 'defend' their towers?" Is there something I'm missing here, or does anyone ELSE believe that KP should ONLY be for 80-90s, and REMAIN at 10 levels of pvp? It just seems assinine to do something like this.fyi: With the current system they're putting forth, a group of 70-81s would be unattackable by a group of 90s, and would be able to destroy the lvl 90's towers in KP uncontested.</blockquote>Fixed for you.Just another reason not to pvp at 90...........KP should unlimited or whats the point? Greys can lock the zone down and there is nothing 90's can do about it. lolololol

Fadedspirit

10-05-2010, 06:06 PM

It was merely an example my friend, I knew 71-80 was possible, but i was proposing a lvl 80 example <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />. Just giving the devs a heads up as they seem to have let this one slip by <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />!

Olihin

10-05-2010, 06:34 PM

I would ask that you please log in and try to view the changes.Although the tiers are limited by 8 levels, the towers are not. If you are 70+, you CAN attack the opposing tower. The Warfield is not only Defensive in nature. Your group of 90s should have more DPS then the 80s attacking your base and can destroy the enemy base before they destroy yours. With the new hardware, we are testing the limit of how many to allow into the zone before it locks down. It should be enough throughout the day so that if you miss a WF, you may participate in the next. In other cases, some players have stated they would enjoy being able to log in to various Tier alts and that is also acceptable. The current number of players in Test will never allow for a true test of the new Warfield system, but we are ready to address any huge problems that may arise. Olihin

Neskonlith

10-05-2010, 07:23 PM

I'm of the opinion that T10 is a separate game of PVP from lowbie fights, and should have it's own warfield free of grey leeches. Even PVE has end-game zones level restricted to 85+ for zone-in, so why not set KP as 85 or 82+?That way everyone cons, everyone fights, and no one leeches. Make the T10 warfields full-risk for everyone, no more grey immunity clogging up the zone.Send the 70-81s to a WF in KoS!

Fadedspirit

10-05-2010, 07:34 PM

<cite>Olihin wrote:</cite><blockquote>I would ask that you please log in and try to view the changes.Although the tiers are limited by 8 levels, the towers are not. If you are 70+, you CAN attack the opposing tower. The Warfield is not only Defensive in nature. Your group of 90s should have more DPS then the 80s attacking your base and can destroy the enemy base before they destroy yours. With the new hardware, we are testing the limit of how many to allow into the zone before it locks down. It should be enough throughout the day so that if you miss a WF, you may participate in the next. In other cases, some players have stated they would enjoy being able to log in to various Tier alts and that is also acceptable. The current number of players in Test will never allow for a true test of the new Warfield system, but we are ready to address any huge problems that may arise. Olihin</blockquote>I appreciate the sincere response Olihini, however if these changes are meant for live I will no longer be participating in a system that rewards exploiting. Granted the lvl 90s will have higher dps, however any time I physically am UNABLE to defend my own base because my enemies are NOT attackable is a no win situation...not to mention frustrating.This is by far the primary concern of players that I've mentioned it to on live about people rolling lvl 80 toons specifically for WF exploiting (again, the majority I've spoken to consider this an exploit).You have two options to fix this issue:A) Make KP 19 levels of pvp (71-90 possible), this would of course give rise to 71's ganking people as low as lvl 52 who enter KP.orB) Make KP 80-90 with a 10 lvl range. This of course being the most sensible solution that causes the LEAST amount of headache and/or hate.I think the majority of the players who read how this system works would agree with me.

Neskonlith

10-05-2010, 08:03 PM

<cite>Fadedspirit wrote:</cite><blockquote>any time I physically am UNABLE to defend my own base because my enemies are NOT attackable is a no win situation...not to mention frustrating.</blockquote>If KP is going to have a low pop cap limiting T10 access to open-PVP, then I will not be pleased to find useless, non-valid-target lowbies clogging up the T10 event when an in-range T9 or T10 is being locked out of zone by an immune grey-con.

Fadedspirit

10-05-2010, 09:12 PM

<cite>Neskonlith wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Fadedspirit wrote:</cite><blockquote>any time I physically am UNABLE to defend my own base because my enemies are NOT attackable is a no win situation...not to mention frustrating.</blockquote>If KP is going to have a low pop cap limiting T10 access to open-PVP, then I will not be pleased to find useless, non-valid-target lowbies clogging up the T10 event when an in-range T9 or T10 is being locked out of zone by an immune grey-con.</blockquote>Not to mention the fact we're being forced to do BG's to get equipment to even pvp. Have you seen the status cost change they put in? It's literally a 9 to 12x multiplier on status for pvp items. The lvl 90 pvp chest piece is now 1.2 MILLION status, literally double the writs required over tokens (150tokens = 30 writs, 1.2million status = 60 writs). Absolutely an idiotic idea.Oh, and I'm not even mentioning how lvl 80 "vintage" armor requires 900k status now....that's not even worth wasting the status on when I can easily wait and save my status until I'm 90 and get maybe TWO piece of armor whilst I pour tokens into my bank going unused.

Olihin

10-05-2010, 09:39 PM

<cite>Fadedspirit wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Neskonlith wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Fadedspirit wrote:</cite><blockquote>any time I physically am UNABLE to defend my own base because my enemies are NOT attackable is a no win situation...not to mention frustrating.</blockquote>If KP is going to have a low pop cap limiting T10 access to open-PVP, then I will not be pleased to find useless, non-valid-target lowbies clogging up the T10 event when an in-range T9 or T10 is being locked out of zone by an immune grey-con.</blockquote>Not to mention the fact we're being forced to do BG's to get equipment to even pvp. Have you seen the status cost change they put in? It's literally a 9 to 12x multiplier on status for pvp items. The lvl 90 pvp chest piece is now 1.2 MILLION status, literally double the writs required over tokens (150tokens = 30 writs, 1.2million status = 60 writs). Absolutely an idiotic idea.Oh, and I'm not even mentioning how lvl 80 "vintage" armor requires 900k status now....that's not even worth wasting the status on when I can easily wait and save my status until I'm 90 and get maybe TWO piece of armor whilst I pour tokens into my bank going unused.</blockquote>Really?This should not be the case. I will look into it. Olihin

Sprin

10-05-2010, 10:14 PM

<cite>Olihin wrote:</cite><blockquote>I would ask that you please log in and try to view the changes.Although the tiers are limited by 8 levels, the towers are not. If you are 70+, you CAN attack the opposing tower. The Warfield is not only Defensive in nature. Your group of 90s should have more DPS then the 80s attacking your base and can destroy the enemy base before they destroy yours. With the new hardware, we are testing the limit of how many to allow into the zone before it locks down. It should be enough throughout the day so that if you miss a WF, you may participate in the next. In other cases, some players have stated they would enjoy being able to log in to various Tier alts and that is also acceptable. The current number of players in Test will never allow for a true test of the new Warfield system, but we are ready to address any huge problems that may arise. Olihin</blockquote>You do realize that by having an 8 range in PVP makes no difference to lvl 35's leeching of 90's right? there will still be dozens of lvl 35's leeching off lvl 90 PVP fights in KP, as I mentioned in another thread... With a lower level population cap, they will just be able to log a bunch of lvl 35's in the zone and lock out any opposing T9 forces and their team will win every time, very quickly...You have a lot of thinking to do TBH... enough is enough with the gray leeching, this will prevent T9 players from getting into their own WF's...think about it... if a lvl 35 can leech of lvl 90's PVP and get 3-5 writs done in a WF, thats 15-25 PVP tokens that they can get... Why would a gray go to their own WF to get 2-6 tokens total from a win tie or loss in a WF when they can just leech off 90's in KP and get 25 tokens!?!... they wont... they will still go to KP, where no matter where you put the Castles, any high level mobs will be cleared out by the fighting 90's and grays will be able to leech all they want, as they do now.Make KP a strict 8 level range up and down or else you will see this happening on day 1, hour 1, minute 1... guaranteed... hear me now, ignore me forever

Whilhelmina

10-06-2010, 05:57 AM

To be honest, you can't hit the statues if you're under level 70 in KP. Same for EL where the statues are level locked for 40-69. And don't forget the fact that, if you're level 70, there's no way you'll be able to kill a level 89 ++ heroic statue.

Urgol

10-06-2010, 09:06 AM

Ohilin, PLEASE, can you look into the grey con pvp problem? Currently on harla dar (which, as a server, is larger then Nagafen as you well know) over 90% of warfield population is below level 82. However, the said grey con players are very dangerous for solo players or small groups of lvl90's, as they can easily swarm and overwhelm the capped players unless those are a full group with a tank and two healers. Even then the lvl90 players would be stuck in combat almost forever, as tons of lvl 80 tanks with some healing support are rather tough to kill, and apply enormous amounts of taunts and other CC. Yet another problem is the shift of player base towards low levels. Low lvls provide a feeling of impunity as they are free to leech away infamy and tokens without the fear of retaliation. Moreover, the huge masses of grey-con players prevent actual level 90s from entering the warfield zone due to player number limits. This forces level 90 players who actually want to compete to deliberetly invite side players into their group to let them zone into the warfield, which is actually an exploit which causes huge server stability problems. Additionally, the lags and amounts of grey con players wither away the fun of pvp. The lag-induced delay on spells and combat arts, problems with auto-attack hitting at all due to lags and ENORMOUS amounts of grey con players who either taunt you, CC you or just stick around to cause lags and targeting problems make the fights last literally forever due to the current crit mit values in pvp. Standing in a laggy zone and mashing the same button over and over hoping that it will cast at all in the freeze-lag-turn based strategy is not fun. This is an even more important issue then crit mit. When we settle for a 6v6 duel in a zone like everfrost i.e. with no players and no lags it's fun and dynamic. When we meet with the same group on the warfield it is not. We cannot kill each other - lags favor tanks and healers way more then dps classes, and tons of grey cons make it literally unbearable. And finally, a note on the concept of separating warfields for levels. As one of the above posters already mentioned, the greys ARE NOT GOING TO STICK TO THEIR LOW TIER WARFIELDS EVER. First is the token issue - they can get more in high tier ones. And second, the 'fun' grey cons see in pvp is leeching off lvl 90s while remaining unpunished. On Harla Dar, the gank activities outside of warfields have returned to Stonebrunt highlands, and you know why? We dont want anyone to leech from us and remain unpunished. Removal of pvp limits in the warfield zones for the warfield time will healthen up the pvp metageme a great deal. The people who really want to have a good pvp on low levels will just switch to some other zone and have fun there. Crappy players who hide from getting o-wned on their low level alts while leeching fame and tokens will just return to their mains, thus making up more level 90 players out there and actually MORE targets to kill, not less. In a nutshell, pvp ranges force people out of t9 into lower levels to leech fame and tokens with impunity. Removing pvp ranges will INCREASE, not reduce the number of targets out there and increase the ganking activity, as some players dislike mass pvp, but enjoy the feel of a 'hunt'.P.S. Somehow I feel compelled to add this..Do you guys know why many younger russian people hate USSR so much? Because of the 'leveling' policy of the state in the social sphere. All citizens were granted almost equal social guarantees, fixed salaries, fixed pensions etc. Your peformance at work didnt really matter much - unless you were attending and doing 'something', you would remain on the same fixed level provided by the state. Your carreer depended mostly on your acquintances with higher position statesmen. There was no real incenitive to work harder, better or more creatively - it would not change anything. Neither your income, nor your position, nothing. So...dont you see some similiar motivation problems in warfields atm? First, the removal of victory bonus. This is obvious. There is another, even greater problem, which might be not so obvious however. Yes, it's the same grey con. Why in hell would a grey con have similiar rewards for doing the warfield as I, if he didnt contribute 1% of what I did to achieve victory? Hell, he actually decreased our chances, as his presence made me lag a tiny bit more. He didnt do anything special, yet he gets the same victory (or, well, defeat) tokens as I do, and he may also bow-poke the enemies I kill to leech pvp writ updates too, while risking nothing and being useless. This is what drives many pvp fans literally mad and forces them to quit. Nobody who didnt contribute should get anything. Hell, there should be grey-con penalties in addition to removal of pvp ranges. Say, if a lvl40 player completes a pvp writ by 'killing' level 90 players only, all pvp tokens from his account should be wiped along with pvp gear, and all ranks voided, and a 'coward' title forever added to all their characters, which they should not be able to remove. There is no excuse for leeching, and you can not assist to 6 lvl 90 kills by chance at lvl40.This brings up even more balance problems..some classes (HEY ILLU I SEE U) can be easily swarmed by a bunch of low level players, while some other (hi warden) will literally go rofl at an x20 hitting them. Let us just get rid of this all once and for all. Remove pvp ranges for all warfield zones for warfield time at least. And for the love of god, even if you are going to make them (which I suspect if the case), make it at least 10 to 15 levels for Kylong!p.p.s. And something more..Soe guys, you should not disregard the minority of really good, skilled and focused players. They are more important for the health of the community then you might think, and griefing them is never a good idea. Especially on a pvp server..this has already started. I dont consider myself a really good or 'focused' player, but when I look at the community of my server and see that there are no better players left in my class, while there were plenty even back in tso..that makes me sad. Really sad. How long is it only kids and housewifes remain in the game? Hope it gets closed before that happens..

Fadedspirit

10-06-2010, 10:52 AM

<cite>Olihin wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Fadedspirit wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Neskonlith wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Fadedspirit wrote:</cite><blockquote>any time I physically am UNABLE to defend my own base because my enemies are NOT attackable is a no win situation...not to mention frustrating.</blockquote>If KP is going to have a low pop cap limiting T10 access to open-PVP, then I will not be pleased to find useless, non-valid-target lowbies clogging up the T10 event when an in-range T9 or T10 is being locked out of zone by an immune grey-con.</blockquote>Not to mention the fact we're being forced to do BG's to get equipment to even pvp. Have you seen the status cost change they put in? It's literally a 9 to 12x multiplier on status for pvp items. The lvl 90 pvp chest piece is now 1.2 MILLION status, literally double the writs required over tokens (150tokens = 30 writs, 1.2million status = 60 writs). Absolutely an idiotic idea.Oh, and I'm not even mentioning how lvl 80 "vintage" armor requires 900k status now....that's not even worth wasting the status on when I can easily wait and save my status until I'm 90 and get maybe TWO piece of armor whilst I pour tokens into my bank going unused.</blockquote>Really?This should not be the case. I will look into it. Olihin</blockquote>What should not be the case? The absolutely INSANE status requirement changes? So far lvl 80 "vintage" pvp armor is 900,000 status per item, and a lvl 90 pvp piece is 1,000,000 to 1,200,000 depending on the piece. That's not even mentioning the cost for jewelry, weapons, shields, bows, charms etc.

Toxicz

10-06-2010, 11:39 AM

Sprin

10-07-2010, 01:40 AM

<cite>Whilhelmina@Storms wrote:</cite><blockquote>To be honest, you can't hit the statues if you're under level 70 in KP. Same for EL where the statues are level locked for 40-69. And don't forget the fact that, if you're level 70, there's no way you'll be able to kill a level 89 ++ heroic statue.</blockquote>You are missing the point, grays dont need to attack the guards in KP, they will just do what they always do in the current WF's... just attack 90's while fighting other 90's and then hide behind trees... the only difference is, KP has HUGE trees, so it will be easier to hide behind... so KP will be even EASIER to leech in... Use my example above if you are a lvl 35Option A: Go to EL and find mabye one or 2 groups there, and maybe, if you are in a stacked group, kill a few people... or spend 20 full mintues bashing in on guards in the zone, only to get 2 tokens cuz the other team bashed the guards first... or get a whopping 6 tokens for bashing in the guards faster then the opponents...Option B: Go to KP and lob some arrows into some 90's fighting and hide behind the big redwood trees and get 4+ writs done and get 20+ tokens out of it... at minimumIts pretty clear what wil happen... the exact same thing as we have happening now... 3 dozen lvl 35-50's all leeching updates off the lvl 90's fighting... the only difference? it will be in KP instead of Antonica

Whilhelmina

10-07-2010, 04:32 AM

Sorry, I'm a bluebie so I don't know PvP mechanics. I thought that if the level range of PvP was 8, then a level 80 could not attack a 90 and a 90 could not attack a 80.But would the 80 attacking you stop you from destroying their tower first?

Darkor

10-07-2010, 06:27 AM

<cite>Whilhelmina@Storms wrote:</cite><blockquote>Sorry, I'm a bluebie so I don't know PvP mechanics. I thought that if the level range of PvP was 8, then a level 80 could not attack a 90 and a 90 could not attack a 80.But would the 80 attacking you stop you from destroying their tower first?</blockquote>Some 90s can defend their towers while they send in a grp of 80s who cannot be touched by 90s. Kylong needs something like 15 lvl pvp range.

Urgol

10-07-2010, 06:30 AM

All zones need unlimited pvp range tbh.

Bodiddle

10-07-2010, 09:59 AM

As was said more then once now the simpliest solution would be that if you participate in pvp during a warfield you get carnage flagged until you die no matter what your level is.

TalisX1

10-07-2010, 11:30 AM

<cite>Bodiddle@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>As was said more then once now the simpliest solution would be that if you participate in pvp during a warfield you get carnage flagged until you die no matter what your level is.</blockquote>Simplest, but not the best. Make it to where attacking a tower or an opponent outside your level range carnage flags you. Not just instant carnage flag.Silat

Wytie

10-07-2010, 12:11 PM

Forget the carnage flag. Its a worthless buff easly removed from any kind of death.The day they chose to allow the same exact rewards for all Teirs of pvp, is the day they promoted the grey zerg.Why pvp on your high level? You can pvp on your locked twink and gain the exact same rewards at a much much cheaper time investment(and have a much wider range of players to get updates from).Level 10 WF's and writs reward the same, as level 90 writs and WF's.Which do you think will take more effort to make a toon to compeate in??? Exactly......THEN WHY ARE THEY REWARDED THE SAME?This is the root to the grey problem imo.

Neskonlith

10-07-2010, 03:01 PM

<cite>Paill@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote> Level 10 WF's and writs reward the same, as level 90 writs and WF's.</blockquote>PVE end-game yields the best PVE rewards, so why shouldn't PVP follow the same tried and true pattern? Writ rewards should scale per tier to reflect increasing difficulty, with the best rewards given at end-game: T2 = 1 TokenT3 = 1 TokenT4 = 2 TokenT5 = 2 TokensT6 = 3 TokensT7 = 3 TokensT8 = 4 TokensT9 = 4 TokensT10 = 5 TokensIf SOE cannot scale the writ rewards to match intended efforts by Tier, then I suggest Lowbie grey leech gear be priced exactly the same as end-game items are at 125-150 per item. TL;DR: if T2 is the same reward as T10, then T2 must invest the same costs as T10 to help restore PVP progression.

Bodiddle

10-07-2010, 06:14 PM

<cite>Olihin wrote:</cite><blockquote>I would ask that you please log in and try to view the changes.Although the tiers are limited by 8 levels, the towers are not. If you are 70+, you CAN attack the opposing tower. The Warfield is not only Defensive in nature. Your group of 90s should have more DPS then the 80s attacking your base and can destroy the enemy base before they destroy yours. With the new hardware, we are testing the limit of how many to allow into the zone before it locks down. It should be enough throughout the day so that if you miss a WF, you may participate in the next. In other cases, some players have stated they would enjoy being able to log in to various Tier alts and that is also acceptable. The current number of players in Test will never allow for a true test of the new Warfield system, but we are ready to address any huge problems that may arise. Olihin</blockquote>Well I did log on, found where the towers spawned took down one tower guardian. WAited WAited WAited still no pvp, Time runs out, its declared a tie. Says I received discord tokens but none actually were given out. Headed over to Q harbor to check out the armor and weapons. The only thing I found was the two hander, a shield added but it's not really anything I would use. Noticed that the Challenger brutallic set is now availble for the shamans, a bit to late for me to worry about now, but eh what else am I gonna get. Anyways I am not really sure about having the towers so close kind makes for a non-defensible position. I can see ranged class's and pet class's having a real advantage here. Its ok though I will try anything kinda like the old mikey commercial.

Fadedspirit

10-09-2010, 06:31 PM

Simplest solution is to NOT allow anyone below the current zone's level range to get rewards for anyone IN the level range of the current zone.For example:A lvl 20 goes to KP (82-90 zone), and attacks a lvl 90. That level 90 dies to a group of lvl 90s, and the lvl 20 get's NOTHING for "Assiting" in his defeat. Also, KP should be set to 80-90, and anyone below 80 get's ZERO rewards for participating in the 80-90 WF. Additionally, no one below 80-90 range in KP may harm, attack, or affect the towers in any way shape or form.THERE, SHAZAM, I'VE JUST SOLVED THE GREY PROBLEM IN WF'S. Was that so hard?

Whilhelmina

10-10-2010, 10:22 AM

<cite>Bodiddle@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>Says I received discord tokens but none actually were given out.</blockquote>The tokens are in your currency tab on Personna window

Bodiddle

10-11-2010, 07:50 AM

<cite>Whilhelmina@Storms wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Bodiddle@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>Says I received discord tokens but none actually were given out.</blockquote>The tokens are in your currency tab on Personna window</blockquote>Thanks your absolutely correct forgot it was even there.

Faeward

10-11-2010, 08:01 AM

Perhaps to stop the grey leeching... don't give rewards to grey conned players.