Everyone with a healer should cancel their account. [Archive]

Ralpmet

10-03-2010, 05:25 AM

<cite>Notsovilepriest@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Ralpmet wrote:</cite><blockquote>You've obviously never played a coercer, even burying my reactives they're still gone before I get the chance to use them up completely, almost completely crippling my burst dps. And that's really all the coercer has going for them dps wise, is the spike damage from their reactives. I can easily kill scouts in ~4 seconds, when someone is spam curing them I hardly hurt them at all.DoT's, reactives, debuffs, all get cured, and all massively effect the dps.</blockquote>I have and do play a coercer alt, Hostage is gone instantly if you use your brain when using it, Spell curse drops a bit slower but still fast especially if you follow it with a green or Shockwave.</blockquote>Oh, you mean use the 3 ca's and the super long range melee?You have to realize you're talking a someone who's coercer went on a 250+ kill streak last expac solo, and hasn't touched over a 40 kill streak this expac. I think I'm aware of what it takes to bring someone down when the avg pvper has 20k hp.20% of my damage comes from debuffing people, cured instantly.30% of my damage comes from reactives, both cured nearly instantly, one that is self cast so it won't be cured but does negligible damage unless stacked inside of other reactives.20% of my damage comes from actual spell damage, instant damage spells20% of my damage comes from absurdly long melee mixed with AE autoattack10% of my damage comes from dots, cured instantly.That leaves 40% of my potential damage actually being done. That's completely whack.

Notsovilepriest

10-03-2010, 05:31 AM

<cite>Ralpmet wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Notsovilepriest@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Ralpmet wrote:</cite><blockquote>You've obviously never played a coercer, even burying my reactives they're still gone before I get the chance to use them up completely, almost completely crippling my burst dps. And that's really all the coercer has going for them dps wise, is the spike damage from their reactives. I can easily kill scouts in ~4 seconds, when someone is spam curing them I hardly hurt them at all.DoT's, reactives, debuffs, all get cured, and all massively effect the dps.</blockquote>I have and do play a coercer alt, Hostage is gone instantly if you use your brain when using it, Spell curse drops a bit slower but still fast especially if you follow it with a green or Shockwave.</blockquote>Oh, you mean use the 3 ca's and the super long range melee?You have to realize you're talking a someone who's coercer went on a 250+ kill streak last expac solo, and hasn't touched over a 40 kill streak this expac. I think I'm aware of what it takes to bring someone down when the avg pvper has 20k hp.20% of my damage comes from debuffing people, cured instantly.30% of my damage comes from reactives, both cured nearly instantly, one that is self cast so it won't be cured but does negligible damage unless stacked inside of other reactives.20% of my damage comes from actual spell damage, instant damage spells20% of my damage comes from absurdly long melee mixed with AE autoattack10% of my damage comes from dots, cured instantly.That leaves 40% of my potential damage actually being done. That's completely whack.</blockquote>Oh your ex-level locked coercer? Also, this games PvP has never and will never be balanced against 1 on 1's, work as a group and hostage is used instantly.

BlueEternal

10-03-2010, 05:42 AM

<cite>Ghettoblaster@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>Dont think it should be a surprise... its very clear the lead Developer has and always will play an Assassin... We are going back to basics here... Most mages were nerfed with the CC debacle last year, Tanks have been nerfed recently, healers are next... and what happened to sins? oh thats right, they just got a MASSIVE beef up with the last update... see a trend here?Toughness is gonna be junk now, so all defensive and healing classes are junk now, defense is being taken from all gear, compounding the problem even more...What we have here is a rise of the Assassin again... The assassin will rule the earth as it did a couple years back... As SOE wants it to be... That is clearThe fast casting, hard hitting classes will rule the world with nobody to stop them..... whoever can proc more damage from gear in the least amount of time, while at the same time delivering a flurry of auto attacks between said fast casting attacks will win all..as SOE wants, obviously</blockquote>Fixed for you. You mentioned assassin all throughout that post and then claimed all scouts will rule the earth. It won't happen.

Sprin

10-03-2010, 05:55 AM

<cite>Naroc@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Ghettoblaster@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>Dont think it should be a surprise... its very clear the lead Developer has and always will play an Assassin... We are going back to basics here... Most mages were nerfed with the CC debacle last year, Tanks have been nerfed recently, healers are next... and what happened to sins? oh thats right, they just got a MASSIVE beef up with the last update... see a trend here?Toughness is gonna be junk now, so all defensive and healing classes are junk now, defense is being taken from all gear, compounding the problem even more...What we have here is a rise of the Assassin again... The assassin will rule the earth as it did a couple years back... As SOE wants it to be... That is clearThe fast casting, hard hitting classes will rule the world with nobody to stop them..... whoever can proc more damage from gear in the least amount of time, while at the same time delivering a flurry of auto attacks between said fast casting attacks will win all..as SOE wants, obviously</blockquote>Fixed for you. You mentioned assassin all throughout that post and then claimed all scouts will rule the earth. It won't happen.</blockquote>The assassin already rules the earth... now every other scout will follow... just like they did in ROK days... 2 second fights and game over... no chance for any class that isnt fully temped, fully buffed before the fight starts, and those who did fully buff and fully temp, they will last about 3 seconds longer... just like good Ol ROK daysPS: I mean real scouts, not buff bots o.O

BlueEternal

10-03-2010, 06:01 AM

<cite>Ghettoblaster@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>PS: I mean real scouts, not buff bots o.O</blockquote><img src="/eq2/images/smilies/385970365b8ed7503b4294502a458efa.gif" border="0" />

Toxicz

10-03-2010, 08:36 AM

<cite>Ghettoblaster@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Naroc@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Ghettoblaster@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>Dont think it should be a surprise... its very clear the lead Developer has and always will play an Assassin... We are going back to basics here... Most mages were nerfed with the CC debacle last year, Tanks have been nerfed recently, healers are next... and what happened to sins? oh thats right, they just got a MASSIVE beef up with the last update... see a trend here?Toughness is gonna be junk now, so all defensive and healing classes are junk now, defense is being taken from all gear, compounding the problem even more...What we have here is a rise of the Assassin again... The assassin will rule the earth as it did a couple years back... As SOE wants it to be... That is clearThe fast casting, hard hitting classes will rule the world with nobody to stop them..... whoever can proc more damage from gear in the least amount of time, while at the same time delivering a flurry of auto attacks between said fast casting attacks will win all..as SOE wants, obviously</blockquote>Fixed for you. You mentioned assassin all throughout that post and then claimed all scouts will rule the earth. It won't happen.</blockquote>The assassin already rules the earth... now every other scout will follow... just like they did in ROK days... 2 second fights and game over... no chance for any class that isnt fully temped, fully buffed before the fight starts, and those who did fully buff and fully temp, they will last about 3 seconds longer... just like good Ol ROK daysPS: I mean real scouts, not buff bots o.O</blockquote>Honestly, this Cure nerf is going to [Removed for Content] pvp in a hard way. Nerfing toughness is the only thing that should hit live honestly, both of them getting nerfed together is going to make for 10sec fights. Keep the cures the way they are and go through with the nerf on toughness.And yea Assassins, and Rangers are going to destroy everything.... Brigands and Swashy's are good, but don't have the massive burst that the Predator's do, which with the toughness and cure nerf that's all that's really going to matter in pvp

Messia

10-03-2010, 11:38 AM

<cite>Ralpmet wrote:</cite><blockquote>Omgz I can't cure off the little 500 tick DOTs! What will I ever do?!Seriously guys, crying about nerfs pre-nerf is something that is getting a tidbit old.</blockquote>lets see ... are you really that much of a [Removed for Content]? perhaps you do not exist on the same pvp server as I do? During PVP it is nothing for me to get 40 to 70 dots on me every few seconds, granted my inquisitor is a pretty High target because I do my job I guess, then of course there is the stupid title which i wish did not exist that would certainly make certain individuals less of a target because you would not be a fame update to people who do not realize the fame system is moronic in the present system.But lets just take those dots in a given fight ... currently i can cure up to 8 dots every 12 seconds with my myth, and then i usually heal and reactive heal in between, occasionally using my group cure. So now my myth will only cure 4 dots every 40 seconds, that means i will now heal for half the amount 75 percent less, this is not a minor nerf. I am just using the inquisitor as an example, but the same is happening to every healing class. The one healer who will likely be hurt the least is the warden simply because they have mostly heal over time spells, but even they will lose AA line cures. Shamans... i completely feel sorry for them they have on average 150 to 200 less focus than other healers making them interruptable constantly, increasing their cure times basically makes them unplayable in pvp. I am growing increasingly sick of the out of control damage a rogue class can do in pvp, and now ironically an assasin has a heal almost as good as a monk or bruiser does .... unless you are an assassin or ranger, or possibly a a swash or brig, you would be an idiot if you did not see what BS this is. With a ranger your only chance was to cure yourself of their rediculous snares and get in their face and try to keep them knocked down or rooted (with a pathetic inq root it only lasts until you hit them once). In comes flurry to off handed weapons and now ranged weapons and the changes to Double Attack, these changes will easily increase their dps by 3x what it is now ... do you really think this is going to bring even remotely close to "balance" here?What pisses me off even more is the fact that now we have BGs so people who do not even participate in real world PVP are having a say in how PVP goes ... another crock of BS. Do you really thing a BG is anything remotely close to real world pvp .. thats a controlled environment 6 v 6 or 12 v 12 or 24 v 24 .... people who play BGs and think they have a right to participate in what happens on a PVP server is rediculous and any developer that listens to them is not representing PVP. BGs ARE NOT PVP ... and frankly i have a feeling most of the changes being instituted are a result of the carebearing coming from those participating in the BGs

Daalilama

10-03-2010, 12:44 PM

TBH the nerf to cures in pvp really has no basis to be even thought up...not quite sure why the devs seem to think pvp isnt a total bloodbath as it is in large encounter...I know lets reduct the ability of healers to grp cure the trillion of dots on their grp....should make for as someone said 10 sec and under fights....my only guess on how this became an issue is most likely a dps class decided to whine about not killing a group fast enough because their healer did their job and cured...omg...imagine that.Best possible outcome I see when it goes live is that the devs are going to have to backtrack on this so fast because quite frankly the bluebies are going to go ballistic when the see how bad it will become in betafields...sry battlefields...afterall we all know things get nerfed or "fixed" in record time when bluebies moan about something ...to be honest this is so much worse then their screw up on tank heals (thanks for nerfing my pally) which even the devs admit was a major error that I dont know what to say

Ralpmet

10-03-2010, 01:18 PM

<cite>Messia@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Ralpmet wrote:</cite><blockquote>Omgz I can't cure off the little 500 tick DOTs! What will I ever do?!Seriously guys, crying about nerfs pre-nerf is something that is getting a tidbit old.</blockquote>lets see ... are you really that much of a [Removed for Content]? perhaps you do not exist on the same pvp server as I do? During PVP it is nothing for me to get 40 to 70 dots on me every few seconds, granted my inquisitor is a pretty High target because I do my job I guess, then of course there is the stupid title which i wish did not exist that would certainly make certain individuals less of a target because you would not be a fame update to people who do not realize the fame system is moronic in the present system.But lets just take those dots in a given fight ... currently i can cure up to 8 dots every 12 seconds with my myth,</blockquote>I'm going to stop right there.Seriously? You think I'm a [Removed for Content] and you can't even keep your own points straight? You get 40-70 dets every couple of seconds, what the hell are you fighting? a x10? You can only cure 8 per 12 seconds now? You must sit around with literally thousands of dets on you by the end of a fight.And Notsoevilpriest, seriously man, for once in your life pretend to have the slightest idea what you're talking about, ok? "LOL YOU CAN USE ONE OF YOUR REACTIVES IF UR SMART!" Just shut the heck up, there's no reason for you to pretend that's even worthwhile to say, I mean jesus christ man. Stop trying to prove how much better than me you are and just mindlessly spamming any post I enter into. None of these people want to read that, at all, and I'm pretty sure at some point your flaming is going to just make me think you want my attention because your life is lack-luster.My coercer at level 70 last xpac did more dps than he does at 90 now in this expac in PvP. That's not right, and it's mostly because of cures.

Toxicz

10-03-2010, 01:39 PM

<cite>Ralpmet wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Messia@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Ralpmet wrote:</cite><blockquote>Omgz I can't cure off the little 500 tick DOTs! What will I ever do?!Seriously guys, crying about nerfs pre-nerf is something that is getting a tidbit old.</blockquote>lets see ... are you really that much of a [Removed for Content]? perhaps you do not exist on the same pvp server as I do? During PVP it is nothing for me to get 40 to 70 dots on me every few seconds, granted my inquisitor is a pretty High target because I do my job I guess, then of course there is the stupid title which i wish did not exist that would certainly make certain individuals less of a target because you would not be a fame update to people who do not realize the fame system is moronic in the present system.But lets just take those dots in a given fight ... currently i can cure up to 8 dots every 12 seconds with my myth,</blockquote>I'm going to stop right there.Seriously? You think I'm a [Removed for Content] and you can't even keep your own points straight? You get 40-70 dets every couple of seconds, what the hell are you fighting? a x10? You can only cure 8 per 12 seconds now? You must sit around with literally thousands of dets on you by the end of a fight.And Notsoevilpriest, seriously man, for once in your life pretend to have the slightest idea what you're talking about, ok? "LOL YOU CAN USE ONE OF YOUR REACTIVES IF UR SMART!" Just shut the heck up, there's no reason for you to pretend that's even worthwhile to say, I mean jesus christ man. Stop trying to prove how much better than me you are and just mindlessly spamming any post I enter into. None of these people want to read that, at all, and I'm pretty sure at some point your flaming is going to just make me think you want my attention because your life is lack-luster.My coercer at level 70 last xpac did more dps than he does at 90 now in this expac in PvP. That's not right, and it's mostly because of cures.</blockquote>Your doing it wrong, I play with coercer's in who parse from 800-1500 in pvp sometimes get up to 2k. You play a utility class, meaning your there to buff people and help the group out with your utility, your class isn't ment to be a solo god. Like notso said, if you time your stuff right with the group, coercers can do a lot of dps in pvp.

MMKA

10-03-2010, 02:00 PM

<cite>Messia@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>lets see ... are you really that much of a [Removed for Content]? perhaps you do not exist on the same pvp server as I do? During PVP it is nothing for me to get 40 to 70 dots on me every few seconds, granted my inquisitor is a pretty High target because I do my job I guess, then of course there is the stupid title which i wish did not exist that would certainly make certain individuals less of a target because you would not be a fame update to people who do not realize the fame system is moronic in the present system.But lets just take those dots in a given fight ... currently i can cure up to 8 dots every 12 seconds with my myth, and then i usually heal and reactive heal in between, occasionally using my group cure. So now my myth will only cure 4 dots every 40 seconds, that means i will now heal for half the amount 75 percent less, this is not a minor nerf. I am just using the inquisitor as an example, but the same is happening to every healing class. The one healer who will likely be hurt the least is the warden simply because they have mostly heal over time spells, but even they will lose AA line cures. Shamans... i completely feel sorry for them they have on average 150 to 200 less focus than other healers making them interruptable constantly, increasing their cure times basically makes them unplayable in pvp. I am growing increasingly sick of the out of control damage a rogue class can do in pvp, and now ironically an assasin has a heal almost as good as a monk or bruiser does .... unless you are an assassin or ranger, or possibly a a swash or brig, you would be an idiot if you did not see what BS this is. With a ranger your only chance was to cure yourself of their rediculous snares and get in their face and try to keep them knocked down or rooted (with a pathetic inq root it only lasts until you hit them once). In comes flurry to off handed weapons and now ranged weapons and the changes to Double Attack, these changes will easily increase their dps by 3x what it is now ... do you really think this is going to bring even remotely close to "balance" here?What pisses me off even more is the fact that now we have BGs so people who do not even participate in real world PVP are having a say in how PVP goes ... another crock of BS. Do you really thing a BG is anything remotely close to real world pvp .. thats a controlled environment 6 v 6 or 12 v 12 or 24 v 24 .... people who play BGs and think they have a right to participate in what happens on a PVP server is rediculous and any developer that listens to them is not representing PVP. BGs ARE NOT PVP ... and frankly i have a feeling most of the changes being instituted are a result of the carebearing coming from those participating in the BGs</blockquote>Well said! I have played a healer for the last 4.5 years and there is no way I will go back to the time when we were killed in less than 10 seconds by every scout that happened along. After this change, there is no point in playing my healer in pvp and I'm already gearing my ranger in anticipation of this change. The few good healers remaining need to boycott playing their healer in BG and pvp when this nerf takes place. If people think pvp is unbalanced now, wait until all the healers start playing scouts! I pity anyone playing a cloth class or anyone without full pvp gear!

Ralpmet

10-03-2010, 02:09 PM

<cite>Toxicz@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>Your doing it wrong, I play with coercer's in who parse from 800-1500 in pvp sometimes get up to 2k. You play a utility class, meaning your there to buff people and help the group out with your utility, your class isn't ment to be a solo god. Like notso said, if you time your stuff right with the group, coercers can do a lot of dps in pvp.</blockquote>Lol the sad thing is at 70 last xpac I was doing 1.3k solid constantly in PvP, and am now doing 900, if i'm lucky, and that's mostly from ae proc on super long melee."If you time your stuff right with your group you might be able to clear your reactives before someone presses the one button to clear it all." -Not legit.

Notsovilepriest

10-03-2010, 02:10 PM

<cite>MMKA wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Messia@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>lets see ... are you really that much of a [Removed for Content]? perhaps you do not exist on the same pvp server as I do? During PVP it is nothing for me to get 40 to 70 dots on me every few seconds, granted my inquisitor is a pretty High target because I do my job I guess, then of course there is the stupid title which i wish did not exist that would certainly make certain individuals less of a target because you would not be a fame update to people who do not realize the fame system is moronic in the present system.But lets just take those dots in a given fight ... currently i can cure up to 8 dots every 12 seconds with my myth, and then i usually heal and reactive heal in between, occasionally using my group cure. So now my myth will only cure 4 dots every 40 seconds, that means i will now heal for half the amount 75 percent less, this is not a minor nerf. I am just using the inquisitor as an example, but the same is happening to every healing class. The one healer who will likely be hurt the least is the warden simply because they have mostly heal over time spells, but even they will lose AA line cures. Shamans... i completely feel sorry for them they have on average 150 to 200 less focus than other healers making them interruptable constantly, increasing their cure times basically makes them unplayable in pvp. I am growing increasingly sick of the out of control damage a rogue class can do in pvp, and now ironically an assasin has a heal almost as good as a monk or bruiser does .... unless you are an assassin or ranger, or possibly a a swash or brig, you would be an idiot if you did not see what BS this is. With a ranger your only chance was to cure yourself of their rediculous snares and get in their face and try to keep them knocked down or rooted (with a pathetic inq root it only lasts until you hit them once). In comes flurry to off handed weapons and now ranged weapons and the changes to Double Attack, these changes will easily increase their dps by 3x what it is now ... do you really think this is going to bring even remotely close to "balance" here?What pisses me off even more is the fact that now we have BGs so people who do not even participate in real world PVP are having a say in how PVP goes ... another crock of BS. Do you really thing a BG is anything remotely close to real world pvp .. thats a controlled environment 6 v 6 or 12 v 12 or 24 v 24 .... people who play BGs and think they have a right to participate in what happens on a PVP server is rediculous and any developer that listens to them is not representing PVP. BGs ARE NOT PVP ... and frankly i have a feeling most of the changes being instituted are a result of the carebearing coming from those participating in the BGs</blockquote>Well said! I have played a healer for the last 4.5 years and there is no way I will go back to the time when we were killed in less than 10 seconds by every scout that happened along. After this change, there is no point in playing my healer in pvp and I'm already gearing my ranger in anticipation of this change. The few good healers remaining need to boycott playing their healer in BG and pvp when this nerf takes place. If people think pvp is unbalanced now, wait until all the healers start playing scouts! I pity anyone playing a cloth class or anyone without full pvp gear!</blockquote>Unless you were a shaman in RoK launch, When was this time I died in 10 seconds?

Ahlana

10-03-2010, 02:22 PM

<cite>Notsovilepriest@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>MMKA wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Messia@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>lets see ... are you really that much of a [Removed for Content]? perhaps you do not exist on the same pvp server as I do? During PVP it is nothing for me to get 40 to 70 dots on me every few seconds, granted my inquisitor is a pretty High target because I do my job I guess, then of course there is the stupid title which i wish did not exist that would certainly make certain individuals less of a target because you would not be a fame update to people who do not realize the fame system is moronic in the present system.But lets just take those dots in a given fight ... currently i can cure up to 8 dots every 12 seconds with my myth, and then i usually heal and reactive heal in between, occasionally using my group cure. So now my myth will only cure 4 dots every 40 seconds, that means i will now heal for half the amount 75 percent less, this is not a minor nerf. I am just using the inquisitor as an example, but the same is happening to every healing class. The one healer who will likely be hurt the least is the warden simply because they have mostly heal over time spells, but even they will lose AA line cures. Shamans... i completely feel sorry for them they have on average 150 to 200 less focus than other healers making them interruptable constantly, increasing their cure times basically makes them unplayable in pvp. I am growing increasingly sick of the out of control damage a rogue class can do in pvp, and now ironically an assasin has a heal almost as good as a monk or bruiser does .... unless you are an assassin or ranger, or possibly a a swash or brig, you would be an idiot if you did not see what BS this is. With a ranger your only chance was to cure yourself of their rediculous snares and get in their face and try to keep them knocked down or rooted (with a pathetic inq root it only lasts until you hit them once). In comes flurry to off handed weapons and now ranged weapons and the changes to Double Attack, these changes will easily increase their dps by 3x what it is now ... do you really think this is going to bring even remotely close to "balance" here?What pisses me off even more is the fact that now we have BGs so people who do not even participate in real world PVP are having a say in how PVP goes ... another crock of BS. Do you really thing a BG is anything remotely close to real world pvp .. thats a controlled environment 6 v 6 or 12 v 12 or 24 v 24 .... people who play BGs and think they have a right to participate in what happens on a PVP server is rediculous and any developer that listens to them is not representing PVP. BGs ARE NOT PVP ... and frankly i have a feeling most of the changes being instituted are a result of the carebearing coming from those participating in the BGs</blockquote>Well said! I have played a healer for the last 4.5 years and there is no way I will go back to the time when we were killed in less than 10 seconds by every scout that happened along. After this change, there is no point in playing my healer in pvp and I'm already gearing my ranger in anticipation of this change. The few good healers remaining need to boycott playing their healer in BG and pvp when this nerf takes place. If people think pvp is unbalanced now, wait until all the healers start playing scouts! I pity anyone playing a cloth class or anyone without full pvp gear!</blockquote>Unless you were a shaman in RoK launch, When was this time I died in 10 seconds?</blockquote>A well played/geared Warden didn't die in 10 seconds either during RoK.While some valid concerns are being addressed, some numbers and issues are being made up on the spot.

Jab

10-03-2010, 02:30 PM

My prediction is we will be fine as healers overall..well maybe not furies so much. but the rest of us can still take a beating.My real concern has more to do with the predators.They will be even more dominat now then pre thoughness change im afraid..I know one of my own classes "Brigand" will prolly benefit but it will still be wham bam thank u mam when a predator comes by ur way.Sins will kill u so fast that!! well they all rdy do.Rangers will simply shut u down with snares and their range !! well they all rdy do...For the love of good sony plz adjust the classes to fit this change.Im not talking perfectly balanced for solo pvp.Just some where within reason you know =)

Toxicz

10-03-2010, 03:31 PM

<cite>Ralpmet wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Toxicz@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>Your doing it wrong, I play with coercer's in who parse from 800-1500 in pvp sometimes get up to 2k. You play a utility class, meaning your there to buff people and help the group out with your utility, your class isn't ment to be a solo god. Like notso said, if you time your stuff right with the group, coercers can do a lot of dps in pvp.</blockquote>Lol the sad thing is at 70 last xpac I was doing 1.3k solid constantly in PvP, and am now doing 900, if i'm lucky, and that's mostly from ae proc on super long melee."If you time your stuff right with your group you might be able to clear your reactives before someone presses the one button to clear it all." -Not legit.</blockquote>So what your saying is you do less damage because there to much curing? So toughness plays no role in how much your dps has gone down from last expansion to this one?

Messia

10-03-2010, 03:35 PM

<cite>Ralpmet wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Messia@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Ralpmet wrote:</cite><blockquote>Omgz I can't cure off the little 500 tick DOTs! What will I ever do?!Seriously guys, crying about nerfs pre-nerf is something that is getting a tidbit old.</blockquote>lets see ... are you really that much of a [Removed for Content]? perhaps you do not exist on the same pvp server as I do? During PVP it is nothing for me to get 40 to 70 dots on me every few seconds, granted my inquisitor is a pretty High target because I do my job I guess, then of course there is the stupid title which i wish did not exist that would certainly make certain individuals less of a target because you would not be a fame update to people who do not realize the fame system is moronic in the present system.But lets just take those dots in a given fight ... currently i can cure up to 8 dots every 12 seconds with my myth,</blockquote>I'm going to stop right there.Seriously? You think I'm a [Removed for Content] and you can't even keep your own points straight? You get 40-70 dets every couple of seconds, what the hell are you fighting? a x10? You can only cure 8 per 12 seconds now? You must sit around with literally thousands of dets on you by the end of a fight.And Notsoevilpriest, seriously man, for once in your life pretend to have the slightest idea what you're talking about, ok? "LOL YOU CAN USE ONE OF YOUR REACTIVES IF UR SMART!" Just shut the heck up, there's no reason for you to pretend that's even worthwhile to say, I mean jesus christ man. Stop trying to prove how much better than me you are and just mindlessly spamming any post I enter into. None of these people want to read that, at all, and I'm pretty sure at some point your flaming is going to just make me think you want my attention because your life is lack-luster.My coercer at level 70 last xpac did more dps than he does at 90 now in this expac in PvP. That's not right, and it's mostly because of cures.</blockquote>one of two things is true here .. either you DO NOT play on a pvp server or you have no clue what kind of detriments are on a healer in mass pvp fights. AND YES BETWEEN THE X 6 OF FREEPORTERS AND THE X 8 OF GREYS .. we are generally fighting a x 10 or more. and yes i do have detriments stacked on detriments all the time ... did i exagerate of course i did ... but once this nerf goes live .. the exageration will most likely be truth. and as much as notsoevil and I have butted heads on the forums here ... i'm in complete agreement with him over most of what he has said the last few days regarding the cures and people not aparently knowing their classes.

Notsovilepriest

10-03-2010, 03:41 PM

Here is whats going to happen:1)Groups will be taunt locked other than the person the tank is targetting because you can't group cure often enough to clear it2)DPS will suffer because when a healer can target themselves they will spam cure themselves over a DPS till they are cleared, Leaving DPS CC'ed more often3) Classes like Brigand and coercer who are already strong and have heavy detriement related DPS will boost to the level of Assassins or close to.4) Healers aren't going to die faster from this(Other than Shamans) it will be everyone else in the group dying faster.

Jab

10-03-2010, 03:42 PM

Guys guys.If u find ur self in a huge pvp wf fight with players from all lvls then chances are most detrimentals wont effect u at all.Just because u see a detri dosent mean it is gameover if it stays on u.There is no single debuff/dot in the game that is so powerfull that it cant stay on,well exept the kb dot landing on healers from wizzies but thats pretty much it.Taunts could potentially be the worst detriment a player can have on them tbh.But that dosent change the fact that there are soooooooo many meaningless/harmless detris that it dosent matter if u have loads on u..I repeat: Most detrimentals are harmless!!

Jab

10-03-2010, 03:44 PM

<cite>Notsovilepriest@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>Here is whats going to happen:1)Groups will be taunt locked other than the person the tank is targetting because you can't group cure often enough to clear it2)DPS will suffer because when a healer can target themselves they will spam cure themselves over a DPS till they are cleared, Leaving DPS CC'ed more often3) Classes like Brigand and coercer who are already strong and have heavy detriement related DPS will boost to the level of Assassins or close to.4) Healers aren't going to die faster from this(Other than Shamans) it will be everyone else in the group dying faster.</blockquote>Plz explain nr3 =)brigand debuffs are amongst the weakest after we got "nerfed" Heck sk´s have better mitt debuff then brigs =)Boost to the lvl of sins..That is prolly the most blown out of proportion statement in 2010 imo.

Notsovilepriest

10-03-2010, 03:56 PM

Notsovilepriest

10-03-2010, 03:57 PM

<cite>Jabib@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>Plz explain nr3 =)brigand debuffs are amongst the weakest after we got "nerfed" Heck sk´s have better mitt debuff then brigs =)Boost to the lvl of sins..That is prolly the most blown out of proportion statement in 2010 imo.</blockquote>Not my fault you aren't a good brig, Brokensword with this change would have a field day, and I have a feeling Toxicz will as well

Jab

10-03-2010, 04:31 PM

<cite>Notsovilepriest@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Jabib@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>Guys guys.If u find ur self in a huge pvp wf fight with players from all lvls then chances are most detrimentals wont effect u at all.Just because u see a detri dosent mean it is gameover if it stays on u.There is no single debuff/dot in the game that is so powerfull that it cant stay on,well exept the kb dot landing on healers from wizzies but thats pretty much it.There are soooooooo many meaningless detris that it dosent matter if u have loads on u..I repeat: Most detrimentals are harmless!!</blockquote>Oh you mean, Cornered, Hostage, Dispatch, Fettering, Tashiana, Sonic Interference for non clerics, DoTs don't interupt no matter the size of the hit, Detriements don't cause things to hit harder which cause deaths, God I hope you never heal one of my non-healers with this outlook on it.</blockquote>god i hope u never teach my kids reading 101.I said most detris and not all or none at all.How many diff detrimentals are out there if we count all of them ??I dunno but my guess is ALOT and over 75-100 easy.U just mentioned 6!! Haha and u mentioned dispatched..try checking the pvp box next time u examine that debuff and then examine other classes debuffs..Dispatch is nothing more then an avg debuff and have been so for a loooong time

Jab

10-03-2010, 04:34 PM

<cite>Notsovilepriest@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Jabib@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>Plz explain nr3 =)brigand debuffs are amongst the weakest after we got "nerfed" Heck sk´s have better mitt debuff then brigs =)Boost to the lvl of sins..That is prolly the most blown out of proportion statement in 2010 imo.</blockquote>Not my fault you aren't a good brig, Brokensword with this change would have a field day, and I have a feeling Toxicz will as well</blockquote>Here we go again.The players with the best gear will always be able to pull stuff of others cant..Why are u guys so sad at being realistic about gear and "skills" in this game!!Wake up and realise that gear makes the diffrence ffs. It is starting to get seriously lame with u endgame raiders claiming superior skills while doing i in gear that only a handfull of players are wearing..P.sUr nothing special or skilled.Ur just ppl with loads more time on ur hands then the rest of us !!!

Notsovilepriest

10-03-2010, 04:35 PM

<cite>Jabib@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Notsovilepriest@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Jabib@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>Guys guys.If u find ur self in a huge pvp wf fight with players from all lvls then chances are most detrimentals wont effect u at all.Just because u see a detri dosent mean it is gameover if it stays on u.There is no single debuff/dot in the game that is so powerfull that it cant stay on,well exept the kb dot landing on healers from wizzies but thats pretty much it.There are soooooooo many meaningless detris that it dosent matter if u have loads on u..I repeat: Most detrimentals are harmless!!</blockquote>Oh you mean, Cornered, Hostage, Dispatch, Fettering, Tashiana, Sonic Interference for non clerics, DoTs don't interupt no matter the size of the hit, Detriements don't cause things to hit harder which cause deaths, God I hope you never heal one of my non-healers with this outlook on it.</blockquote>god i hope u never teach my kids reading 101.I said most detris and not all or none at all.How many diff detrimentals are out there if we count all of them ??I dunno but my guess is ALOT and over 75-100 easy.U just mentioned 6!! Haha and u mentioned dispatched..try checking the pvp box next time u examine that debuff and then examine other classes debuffs..Dispatch is nothing more then an avg debuff and have been so for a loooong time</blockquote>Dispatch alone isn't amazing, it's stacked with other debuffs it is. I'm not going to list out every debuff, I don't have the time nor the motivation to tell everyone what important and not.

Notsovilepriest

10-03-2010, 04:37 PM

<cite>Jabib@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Notsovilepriest@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Jabib@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>Plz explain nr3 =)brigand debuffs are amongst the weakest after we got "nerfed" Heck sk´s have better mitt debuff then brigs =)Boost to the lvl of sins..That is prolly the most blown out of proportion statement in 2010 imo.</blockquote>Not my fault you aren't a good brig, Brokensword with this change would have a field day, and I have a feeling Toxicz will as well</blockquote>Here we go again.The players with the best gear will always be able to pull stuff of others cant..Why are u guys so sad at being realistic about gear and "skills" in this game!!Wake up and realise that gear makes the diffrence ffs. It is starting to get seriously lame with u endgame raiders claiming superior skills while doing i in gear that only a handfull of players are wearing..P.sUr nothing special or skilled.Ur just ppl with loads more time on ur hands then the rest of us !!!</blockquote>Yes I have tons of time on my hands to play this game, I go to college full time, and work 25 hrs a week on top of that, and that is without factoring homework and other stuff. If you don't think there are superior players and inferior players and it's all gear, it's a laughable theory that has been disproved time and time again.

Jab

10-03-2010, 04:38 PM

<cite>Notsovilepriest@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Jabib@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Notsovilepriest@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Jabib@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>Guys guys.If u find ur self in a huge pvp wf fight with players from all lvls then chances are most detrimentals wont effect u at all.Just because u see a detri dosent mean it is gameover if it stays on u.There is no single debuff/dot in the game that is so powerfull that it cant stay on,well exept the kb dot landing on healers from wizzies but thats pretty much it.There are soooooooo many meaningless detris that it dosent matter if u have loads on u..I repeat: Most detrimentals are harmless!!</blockquote>Oh you mean, Cornered, Hostage, Dispatch, Fettering, Tashiana, Sonic Interference for non clerics, DoTs don't interupt no matter the size of the hit, Detriements don't cause things to hit harder which cause deaths, God I hope you never heal one of my non-healers with this outlook on it.</blockquote>god i hope u never teach my kids reading 101.I said most detris and not all or none at all.How many diff detrimentals are out there if we count all of them ??I dunno but my guess is ALOT and over 75-100 easy.U just mentioned 6!! Haha and u mentioned dispatched..try checking the pvp box next time u examine that debuff and then examine other classes debuffs..Dispatch is nothing more then an avg debuff and have been so for a loooong time</blockquote>Dispatch alone isn't amazing, it's stacked with other debuffs it is. I'm not going to list out every debuff, I don't have the time nor the motivation to tell everyone what important and not.</blockquote>hahah okay papa..Jesus christ maybe it is time for an ego check mr evil!And wtg to backtrack ur statement!!

Ralpmet

10-03-2010, 04:41 PM

<cite>Jabib@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>Guys guys.If u find ur self in a huge pvp wf fight with players from all lvls then chances are most detrimentals wont effect u at all.Just because u see a detri dosent mean it is gameover if it stays on u.There is no single debuff/dot in the game that is so powerfull that it cant stay on,well exept the kb dot landing on healers from wizzies but thats pretty much it.Taunts could potentially be the worst detriment a player can have on them tbh.But that dosent change the fact that there are soooooooo many meaningless/harmless detris that it dosent matter if u have loads on u..I repeat: Most detrimentals are harmless!!</blockquote>Don't talk to walls, they don't listen, they're just in a cry-fest mode. I mean, god forbid you have to watch for certain debuffs and clear them when they get cast, which is where skill comes in. I already explained to notsoevilpriest how curing works in another thread, and he is still crying about it. These people don't want any skill involved in curing, which is a crying shame.<div><cite>Toxicz@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>So what your saying is you do less damage because there to much curing? So toughness plays no role in how much your dps has gone down from last expansion to this one?</blockquote>Toughness plays a roll, but not as large of one as simply removing the damage before it's done, which happens nearly instantly in all situations currently.We can compare my 900 dps in a gvg fight to my 3.8k dps in a 1on1 against someone who doesn't have self cures. That's a fairly large difference, and it's pretty ridiculous. Let's just cry about fixing broken things though guys, a+ for effort.</div>

Jab

10-03-2010, 04:44 PM

<cite>Notsovilepriest@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Jabib@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Notsovilepriest@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Jabib@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>Plz explain nr3 =)brigand debuffs are amongst the weakest after we got "nerfed" Heck sk´s have better mitt debuff then brigs =)Boost to the lvl of sins..That is prolly the most blown out of proportion statement in 2010 imo.</blockquote>Not my fault you aren't a good brig, Brokensword with this change would have a field day, and I have a feeling Toxicz will as well</blockquote>Here we go again.The players with the best gear will always be able to pull stuff of others cant..Why are u guys so sad at being realistic about gear and "skills" in this game!!Wake up and realise that gear makes the diffrence ffs. It is starting to get seriously lame with u endgame raiders claiming superior skills while doing i in gear that only a handfull of players are wearing..P.sUr nothing special or skilled.Ur just ppl with loads more time on ur hands then the rest of us !!!</blockquote>Yes I have tons of time on my hands to play this game, I go to college full time, and work 25 hrs a week on top of that, and that is without factoring homework and other stuff. If you don't think there are superior players and inferior players and it's all gear, it's a laughable theory that has been disproved time and time again.</blockquote>Are u fricking kidding me!!!Gear is not important u say ??!!So all this gear/stats min/max is simply an exercise in futility!!Plz correct me if misread ur statement about gear not being important !!Infact i am begging u to tell me i misread it.Ofc there is bad/good players no doubt.But to pin it all on the shoulders of the best equipped players and claim that they are the benchmark for everybody else in inferior gear is borderline stupid..plain and simply stupid my friend.

Notsovilepriest

10-03-2010, 04:52 PM

Just nevermind, No matter what I say, Ralp will troll and act like he knows something, and a brigand won't admit their class will become OP because they don't want to hear that.

MMKA

10-03-2010, 06:43 PM

<cite>Ahlana wrote:</cite><blockquote>A well played/geared Warden didn't die in 10 seconds either during RoK.While some valid concerns are being addressed, some numbers and issues are being made up on the spot.</blockquote>Honestly now, how may well geared, well played wardens were there on pvp servers before/during RoK? I remember taking most of them down in seconds on my sin.I don't think we are talking about the elite of all healers - we are talking about healers in general. Most of them are not geared to the max with years of practice. The average healer will be the ones who get hit the hardest while any idiot with the ability to push a key can kill them on a scout. That is not what I call balance!

dellaripa

10-04-2010, 01:36 AM

Tell me what's going to happen when a tank taunts through assist (ie taunts through a groupmate) while the enchanter he's grouped with stuns/stifles/mezzes the oponent group. Think "target is not a friend".It already happens often now, but imagine what's going to happen with 40 second group cure recast. This disaster scenario will be the norm and for that I say this update will make healers virtually unplayable in PvP.

MindFury

10-04-2010, 04:39 AM

So I've read through the b.s. and I've apparently missed something....or you all have...one of the two.My main is a healer. I know all about the pvp and the curing, and I guess you folks are clueless as I've not seen it mentioned yet......when you cure, you CAN NOT PICK AND CHOOSE WHAT THAT CURE U CAST, CURES.....I'm immediately targetted in a grp vs grp situation. I'm the healer, they're going to attempt to take me down a.s.a.p ...I spent tons of points in my cures in aa lines...and now they're getting nerfed to high hell...so here I am, the lone healer in a 6 man pvp fight against 6 others....I've got 6 nox 5 arcane 7 ele 9 trauma (yes these numbers are extremely accurate from many prior fights) ....I cast a single target cure on myself....this wipes 1 of each det off me, leaving me unable to single cure anyone else for a few seconds...now that single target cure, does not let me pick and choose which of the 6 nox I want cured, which of the 5 arcane I want cured, the 7 elemental or the 9 trauma, it just f'n pulls one of each type off (lovely way to assist me cure, take the one's off that weren't doin jack squat while leaving the ones that are !!!)...I'm still unable to do what's needed...so, seeing my grp also now dotted to high hell I cast my first grp cure, which again wipes 1 of each det off all of us...again not picking and choosing which crap to clear...still seeing 4+ of each det on us I hit my second grp cure, the one I spent hella points to get, and that one clears 2 of each type....roughly 18 seconds later I can cast either of the grp cures again....trying my best to keep up with the dots, while also keeping my tush, and my grps tushes alive, through op sin's, op sk's, locks rifting and dotting like crazy, brigs tryin to stun ya to high heaven, etc etc etc.You want to claim this nerf isn't going to screw things up? pfft u have no clue [Removed for Content] pvp is then apparently. Stop trying for god mode, this is a [Removed for Content] game. Ur life isn't going to improve simply because u kill everyone in a game in 2 seconds and ur lil "tool" sure isn't gonna grow any killing anyone that quick despite what u think. We all pay to play this game, it's our entertainment, at least for some of us it's entertainment, for others it seems to be a life line to making their lil member seem huge...so they cry and whine and [Removed for Content] and moan and harrass and demand nerfs so they can go around killing everyone they encounter in less than 5 seconds. For the sane person, where the hell is a 2-5 second fight even fun? it's no challenge, it's nothing but wham bam ur dead, next. It sure the hell isn't fun for the players that aren't 20-50k dps in 5 seconds or less, who're dying in 5 seconds or less.Nerfing cures to the extent they are nerfing them...is just idiotic. for the warden alone, they've spent quite a few extra points to get that end cure that cures 2 of each dot, and gives a 3 trigger dmg proc...what's going to happen with their points now that soe's decided to drop it to curing just 1 of each type? and that's just one question on it...single target cures are going to have to be going off constantly...which means the healers going to be so preoccupied doing that they won't be doing heals. or they'll be doing heals and not cures...a healers entire job is to freakin' heal/cure...and now ur goign to f*ck them on both. There is no humanly possible way to deal with all those dots/dets and heals all at the same time...not when u limit the amount of curing we can do and lengthen the amount of time we can do it. When in a big pvp fight, 12-30+ of your own level, plus 50+ of lower lvls, all stacking crap on you, you do not get to pick and choose [Removed for Content] ur curing. So I cast my cures and sit back watching as my grp is f*cked over by all the stupid greys who're stacking crap on us left n right, and that's getting cured before anything actually harmful is...yea way to freakin' go with the cures guys !!...I swear to god yall are intentionally trying to get folks to quit.I've played the game 6 yrs now. I've been on pvp since the very beginning of 07...the more changes I see, the more disheartened and fed up I get. My Warden was my first ever pvp toon, and I completely enjoy playing her (and before yall start she's not the least bit raid geared, so she dies easily enough to all those annoying op classes who get heals on gear, yet aren't healers, are massive dps already, yet get dmg procs on gear, not to mention able to use pwr drain poisons while never running outta pwr themselves...just something else I thank you for soe) BTW that reminds me. Do something bout sin's plz, or at least cut back their stupid massive pwr drain on us, while retaining full pwr themselves with heals that keep them full health vs a melee spec'd warden, but mostly the massively op 13 second stifle =| they get that stifle to land and stick and that's all she wrote. game over....but my thought here is of earlier on my illy...1 second flat, enough dps in 1 freakin' second to lay waste to a mage class (cloth sure, lower health than plate, chain, leather sure but point is still the same 1 second flat on a lvl 90)...almost every one of his attacks critically hitting and flurries going off also critically hitting, it's a bit idiotic.Anywho, back to the prior comment, I enjoy playing my warden, this nerf to cures, along with the nerf to toughness, with the boost to these high dps classes who also now get flurry, and aoe flurry etc = fail. I would hate to have to shelve her after so long. But we all know [Removed for Content] well, healer is always blamed for a grps failing, regardless of who is truely to blame, it's always why didn't u heal me through the 50 mobs I pulled! why didn't u cure me of the 100 dots!! why weren't u in range for heals on me after I sprinted off without saying I was going to and ran 100 feet away to pull an entire room you had no idea I was pulling!...wait till this change takes place and pvp suddenly starts feeling the pain of it...healers are going to be more stressed than they are with cures on raids. And we all remember the whole "omg tired of the freakin' whack a mole curing soe plz do something stop making every mob in game dot us a million and one times"....now look...pvp we get dotted constantly and they want to CUT our ability to cure LOL too freakin laughable tbh...1 single target cure every few seconds, to attempt to clear 6 ppls 20+ dets !! yay...2 grp cures every 40 seconds that clears 1 of each dot YAY !!!!....while we watch another 50 dets pile up !! god this is gonna be one hell of a riot soe ...we're all gonna love it and have so much fun and laugh and pat yall on the back and tell you how smart yall are and what a great job u did !! /sarcasm off

Darkor

10-04-2010, 05:04 AM

Ive done some x2 and gear matches yesterday and im shocked right now. In the x2 a warden came into our base and got the flag and walked away like nothing happend. Truth is there was a handfull of dps trying to burn him and could not stop him at all. Yeah he went into red a few times but the final burn was not possible. Right now some healers are simply unkillable. Whether its the toughness mechanic or the imba cure of the inqui mythical i cant tell. But im sick being unable to burn certain healer with 4+ people unloading everything on him. The only reason a healer should stay alive with so many dps trying to kill him is when he has a decent tank stopping us. Im happy to see the toughnes change coming in and right now i wouldnt even mind a little cure nerf as in 1 vs 1 situation curing is destroying any dps that some classes bring (necros, coercers etc.)

max.power

10-04-2010, 07:58 AM

<cite>MindFury wrote:</cite><blockquote>So I've read through the b.s. and I've apparently missed something....or you all have...one of the two.</blockquote>Another thing you and others are missing too: The group your group is fighting will have the same problems with curing. You are acting like the changes will only affect you and your group, you all seem to forget that the enemy will have to deal with the changes as well.This means that your tank's taunts might stick better than now, the debuffs from your group might last longer, your DPS classes might get a few seconds more to actually stay on one target and so on. It will depend on what the healers cure, timing cures will be the key.Yes, yes, I know. Healers can't choose exactly what to cure and it might and will happen that you can't cure that mezz off of your group mate instantly for example. But instead of spam group curing (like it is right now, keeping groups nearly "clean" all the time) healers will need to use group cures and cures in general with more thought and group mates will need to communicate more.Before you jump me with something like "Typical, an OP assassin that likes the change, what a surprise!": Don't forget that those changes will effect me in group vs. group as well and I can't tell right now if I like, hate or don't care about the changes. We all will see how it turns out.What SOE should consider though is adding more immunities to control effects to balance the cure nerf a bit. Taunts, taunt locks, detaunts, detaunt locks and knockbacks are control effects but don't have immunity timers attached to them and I'm afraid that they will turn out to be too powerful.

Jab

10-04-2010, 08:05 AM

Here is what some players say--> ARG i cant cure my grp of all detrimentals,what bs !!!Here is a hint: Sony does not want u to be able to clear em all.Here is what happens with less curing in grp pvp..It improves dps,it makes tanks more important,it makes cc important <--All stuff we as players have been asking for..

Jab

10-04-2010, 08:11 AM

<cite>Notsovilepriest@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>Just nevermind, No matter what I say, Ralp will troll and act like he knows something, and a brigand won't admit their class will become OP because they don't want to hear that.</blockquote>=)So because my class "and all others" can stick a few debuffs then that suddenly makes my class OP !? Nothing will change with this update.I have been able to stack all my debuffs for a loooooooong time and nobody has been screaming bloody brigands and their OPness for years now..Here let me kill u with debuffs ?? Laughable m8..Also have u asked ur fav brigands about their view on ur assumption that brigands will be sins in disguise after next update !!??Im sure u will be laughed at..

Dorsan

10-04-2010, 08:16 AM

I think that heals need some nerf, but I am not sure if group cures were the right target for it. The basic concept that a healer needs to be able to keep 6 people alive is wrong. A healer should be killable even 1on1. What a healer needs to be able to do is to keep a TANK alive... Then if the tank does it's job, the whole group will be alive. Nerfing group cures will not make healers more killable solo, so I don't think this will fix anything. Oh and one more thing... A healer complaining about -any- nerf is just laughable.

Jab

10-04-2010, 09:07 AM

Toxicz

10-04-2010, 10:30 AM

<cite>Jabib@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Notsovilepriest@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>Just nevermind, No matter what I say, Ralp will troll and act like he knows something, and a brigand won't admit their class will become OP because they don't want to hear that.</blockquote>=)So because my class "and all others" can stick a few debuffs then that suddenly makes my class OP !? Nothing will change with this update.I have been able to stack all my debuffs for a loooooooong time and nobody has been screaming bloody brigands and their OPness for years now..Here let me kill u with debuffs ?? Laughable m8..Also have u asked ur fav brigands about their view on ur assumption that brigands will be sins in disguise after next update !!??Im sure u will be laughed at..</blockquote>All scouts will be redic next LU, but Assassins and Rangers a bit more so. I don't know if you raid or not, but in raids Brigands de-buffs are almost worthless, however in pvp they play a huge part in how fast someone or a group dies. Brigands are OP, they are probably the most OP group vs group scout there is, in solo I'd say there second compared to Assassins. I wish they'd just leave the cures alone, and keep the toughness nerf so that pvp will still be some-what challenging; otherwise pvp will be ruined due to the little to no survivability.

Darkor

10-04-2010, 10:45 AM

<cite>Dorsan@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>I think that heals need some nerf, but I am not sure if group cures were the right target for it. The basic concept that a healer needs to be able to keep 6 people alive is wrong. A healer should be killable even 1on1. What a healer needs to be able to do is to keep a TANK alive... Then if the tank does it's job, the whole group will be alive. Nerfing group cures will not make healers more killable solo, so I don't think this will fix anything. Oh and one more thing... A healer complaining about -any- nerf is just laughable.</blockquote>Hey Dorsan,you were in one klakanon BG that i mentioned in my post above and even tho you guys had no healer you won.You had like 3-4 tanks, a wizard and you as a necro and we simply couldnt drop anyone because of the totally broken toughness stat. Yeah some people died from time to time, but seeing especially the tank stay alive throu the whole fight showed me how broken the toughness stat is. Now add a healer in that group and that match would have lasted literally forever. My main is a rogue and debuffs are important for me. I dont completely agree with toxciz with brigand debuffs being the best because if you check the pvp box on dispatch it literally reduces only slightly more mitigation than the swashy debuff that has actually no positional restriction. So the rogue class needs it debuffs to be efficient and when i see bg matches i start crying. One debuff after another gets cured off and some of them are extremelly important and on long recast timers (like dispatch). Right now the players have sick and stupid survability, add a healer in that and we are done. The change to toughness is good and a start but imo not enough. The slight cure nerf is something that has to be tested, but so far i think the change is justified. Not everyone plays assassins or rangers that can deal such crazy burst dps.

Dorsan

10-04-2010, 10:54 AM

<cite>Ajjantis wrote:</cite><blockquote>Hey Dorsan,you were in one klakanon BG that i mentioned in my post above and even tho you guys had no healer you won.</blockquote>Yeah, I remember that game... In fact that day I was without healers in 6 klak games one after another... Necro heals are pretty decent now, I can keep people up with the relic for a long time.

Jab

10-04-2010, 12:37 PM

<cite>Toxicz@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Jabib@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Notsovilepriest@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>Just nevermind, No matter what I say, Ralp will troll and act like he knows something, and a brigand won't admit their class will become OP because they don't want to hear that.</blockquote>=)So because my class "and all others" can stick a few debuffs then that suddenly makes my class OP !? Nothing will change with this update.I have been able to stack all my debuffs for a loooooooong time and nobody has been screaming bloody brigands and their OPness for years now..Here let me kill u with debuffs ?? Laughable m8..Also have u asked ur fav brigands about their view on ur assumption that brigands will be sins in disguise after next update !!??Im sure u will be laughed at..</blockquote>All scouts will be redic next LU, but Assassins and Rangers a bit more so. I don't know if you raid or not, but in raids Brigands de-buffs are almost worthless, however in pvp they play a huge part in how fast someone or a group dies. Brigands are OP, they are probably the most OP group vs group scout there is, in solo I'd say there second compared to Assassins. I wish they'd just leave the cures alone, and keep the toughness nerf so that pvp will still be some-what challenging; otherwise pvp will be ruined due to the little to no survivability.</blockquote>Im amazed u think brigs are good in grp pvp..We suck donkey balls due to ppl never standing still combined with our positionals..No brigand can ever dream of getting in top parse in grp pvp.Just a tip i dont care what u can do on ur brig tox,ur toon is not the benchmark for what brigs can do.In most non perfect setups a swashy with AA in MB will make the diffrence between win or loose.Sins will come close second and then rangers with brigs coming last.Maybe if our debuff made a diffrence compared to other classes then i will grant u a point for being right.But right now alot of classes can debuff just as good or better considering how troublesome it can be to have a back in pvp for more then 5sec.As for solo pvp i wont disagree.Brigs are a good toon and imo are the benchmark for how scouts should work,we can do good dps but it comes with a drawback "positionals and alot of em" unlike rangers/swashy/sins that have next to no drawbacks compared to brigands.Tbh what i think is going on here is that u look at ur own old twinked out toon in gear that only a handfull of ppl have and say "Look what i can do,u can do the same" but u dont realise that if everybody had ur gear then ur right back to square one with brigands being good but no way near OP as u make it out to be.CheersEdit:I think u are the only brigand i see in pvp tox.U would asume that there would be loads of us just like there is loads of rangers and sins.But i guess our OPenss is just a big secret =)

Vlahkmaak

10-04-2010, 12:49 PM

As a tank I support the healers on this one. The only enjoyable pvp time on my guardian anymore is in a semi decent+ pvp group. In a decent pvp grp group guards shine. We have a fair amount of taunting power that makes up for our "t1 type DPS" people think all tanks enjoy thus allowing us to better support our healers and dps. I DEPEND on my healer(s) to cure me. Any nerf to cures is an indirect NERF to guardians. At any time during a large scale pvp fight I am going to have alot of dets on my window from working to keep people off my healers and DPS. Healers being unable to cure properly is going to hurt guardians. We don't get regenerating wards like crusaders - our stone skins get used up very fast and then their gone. With the incoming chage to toughness which will impact guardians to a much greater degree than other plate tanks (and I support a change to toughness mechanics before the inc flame fest) the inability of healers to properly cure us is further going to incure our taking significantly more damage in pvp than other plate tanks.With my test copy toon toughness and pvp crit mit values changing form 37-40% (depending on which gear I equip at any time) to 16-17% and PVP crit mit dropping from 120% to 97% that translates into a ton more damge I will be taking from all those detriments piled up on my non damge reducing non ward regenerating non incombt healing guardian and thus will be ever more reliant on healers being able to not only heal but cure well not slower.

Jab

10-04-2010, 12:58 PM

I feel ur pain as guard and how the t1 dps remark may hurt =) I have a guard myself so i share ur pain.But with that being said.If healers can cure/heal as desired then pvp fights are never gonna end.If tanks can taunt like we believe we should then fights will never end.If dps can do uninterupted dps then fights are over very quickly.I trust u get my point.We all have to make sacrifices in order for somebody to die.In essense "Something has to give" is what im saying..P.sI have dps, tank, and healer as my pvp toons so i have been around he block.What bugs me on my healer is a gift for my dps.What bugs me on my dps is a gift for my healer,What bugs me on my tank is a gift for my dps and healer.And so on and so on

MMKA

10-04-2010, 01:20 PM

Balance does not mean the group with the most scouts wins. Balance is when every class has a special ability and has the opportunity for a fair, even fight when geared and played correctly. Let's be honest here, the real winners in this deal are scouts and mages. Now they can deliver dots/mez/stuns/etc. with reckless abandon. I wouldn't want to be a healer or a tank after this debacle goes into effect.

Shankapotomus

10-04-2010, 02:19 PM

What will really send a message to SOE is when new games like Guild Wars 2 comes out and they lose their whole player base because people rather PvP than see nerfs and buffs to class to fix a fundemetaly flawed system.It's like trying to make kids happy with jelly beans. The bag doesn't have an equal number of jelly beans in it in the first place. And when you finally give them an equal number one complains because he didn't get enough purple ones. So you try to take them from another kid, but that kid likes purple jelly beans too. So you take it from another kid and some other kid gets mad cus that kid has more orange jelly beans than he does now. Get confusing after a while? Do you think everyone is going to end up happy in the end? When you should have just gave them all oreos in the first place...Does everyone understand that we are playing a PvE game that only introduced PvP because they saw it had a good player base to pull on more money?While everyone sits and complains about this problem or that one. Anyone thought about what SOE is thinking? I bet it goes something like this, "Well we already have their money, so lets change this to make it appear we are working on the overall problem."The only solution to get a functioning PvP system is to find another game that is better suited for your play style.

Toxicz

10-04-2010, 03:53 PM

<cite>Jabib@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Toxicz@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Jabib@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Notsovilepriest@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>Just nevermind, No matter what I say, Ralp will troll and act like he knows something, and a brigand won't admit their class will become OP because they don't want to hear that.</blockquote>=)So because my class "and all others" can stick a few debuffs then that suddenly makes my class OP !? Nothing will change with this update.I have been able to stack all my debuffs for a loooooooong time and nobody has been screaming bloody brigands and their OPness for years now..Here let me kill u with debuffs ?? Laughable m8..Also have u asked ur fav brigands about their view on ur assumption that brigands will be sins in disguise after next update !!??Im sure u will be laughed at..</blockquote>All scouts will be redic next LU, but Assassins and Rangers a bit more so. I don't know if you raid or not, but in raids Brigands de-buffs are almost worthless, however in pvp they play a huge part in how fast someone or a group dies. Brigands are OP, they are probably the most OP group vs group scout there is, in solo I'd say there second compared to Assassins. I wish they'd just leave the cures alone, and keep the toughness nerf so that pvp will still be some-what challenging; otherwise pvp will be ruined due to the little to no survivability.</blockquote>Im amazed u think brigs are good in grp pvp..We suck donkey balls due to ppl never standing still combined with our positionals..No brigand can ever dream of getting in top parse in grp pvp.Just a tip i dont care what u can do on ur brig tox,ur toon is not the benchmark for what brigs can do.In most non perfect setups a swashy with AA in MB will make the diffrence between win or loose.Sins will come close second and then rangers with brigs coming last.Maybe if our debuff made a diffrence compared to other classes then i will grant u a point for being right.But right now alot of classes can debuff just as good or better considering how troublesome it can be to have a back in pvp for more then 5sec.As for solo pvp i wont disagree.Brigs are a good toon and imo are the benchmark for how scouts should work,we can do good dps but it comes with a drawback "positionals and alot of em" unlike rangers/swashy/sins that have next to no drawbacks compared to brigands.Tbh what i think is going on here is that u look at ur own old twinked out toon in gear that only a handfull of ppl have and say "Look what i can do,u can do the same" but u dont realise that if everybody had ur gear then ur right back to square one with brigands being good but no way near OP as u make it out to be.CheersEdit:I think u are the only brigand i see in pvp tox.U would asume that there would be loads of us just like there is loads of rangers and sins.But i guess our OPenss is just a big secret =)</blockquote>Honestly man, Brigs are OP. My gear is nice, yes I do have some pieces that not many people outside of Onyx have, but the majority of my gear is pvp/instance or from TSO raids which is easily doable. In group pvp, I'm normally 1-5 on the parse depending on how many people there are in the fight. We have one of if not the the most OP temps in the game for pvp, a passive KB, which is death for healers/mage's/crusaders. My gear does help me in pvp, but you can't blame me for putting time into my character and obtaining pieces that help me do what I do(Which is only about 7 pieces of my gear), but saying its all about gear is completely bull, when I'm outparsing 90% of all the rangers, brigs, swashy's and assassins in group pvp.

Ralpmet

10-04-2010, 04:50 PM

Cmon tox, you can't say 7 pieces of gear isn't nearing more than a minority of your gear <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Notsovilepriest

10-04-2010, 04:57 PM

Crismorn

10-04-2010, 05:15 PM

ralpmet wrong again, this time I refuse to be surprised

Toxicz

10-05-2010, 12:34 AM

<cite>Ralpmet wrote:</cite><blockquote>Cmon tox, you can't say 7 pieces of gear isn't nearing more than a minority of your gear <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" /></blockquote>Thats why I said ABOUT. Looking at my gear now, I have a Wrist, Ear, Charm, Ranged weapon, and those are the only pieces that really make a dif, that are either TSO or SF raids. so only 4 items that make some-what of a dif.... so yea 17 > 4

Ralpmet

10-05-2010, 12:40 AM

Don't say that charm only makes some-what of a difference, that's an insult to everyone who reads that message.Besides that, I was just giving you crap. Don't know why notsoevilpriest jumped on and started flaming, he must be bored.

Toxicz

10-05-2010, 12:54 AM

<cite>Ralpmet wrote:</cite><blockquote>Don't say that charm only makes some-what of a difference, that's an insult to everyone who reads that message.Besides that, I was just giving you crap. Don't know why notsoevilpriest jumped on and started flaming, he must be bored.</blockquote>Yea its nice, but its also easy to get. If someone doesn't have it they aren't trying to get it.

Notsovilepriest

10-05-2010, 01:05 AM

<cite>Ralpmet wrote:</cite><blockquote>Don't say that charm only makes some-what of a difference, that's an insult to everyone who reads that message.Besides that, I was just giving you crap. Don't know why notsoevilpriest jumped on and started flaming, he must be bored.</blockquote>I just don't like people making dumb statements, nothing more. If you state logical things I will leave you alone. If you post actual information instead of false info then I'll leave you alone. It's pretty simple, We don't need to perpetuate bad information

Cloakentuna

10-05-2010, 01:34 AM

Less cures + less toughness + no short KB immunity still = no reason to play a healer. Might as well just load up a group full of DPS and plow through everybody.

PeaSy1

10-05-2010, 01:39 AM

groups are gonna have a harder time standing up to x4's? [Removed for Content] what a terrible change

Notsovilepriest

10-05-2010, 01:42 AM

<cite>Dudoes@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>groups are gonna have a harder time standing up to x4's? [Removed for Content] what a terrible change</blockquote>Yes, Let zerg be better than coordination!

PeaSy1

10-05-2010, 02:02 AM

<cite>Notsovilepriest@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Dudoes@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>groups are gonna have a harder time standing up to x4's? [Removed for Content] what a terrible change</blockquote>Yes, Let zerg be better than coordination!</blockquote>Zerg is irrelevant and has always been a part of this game.

Messia

10-05-2010, 02:56 AM

<cite>Ajjantis wrote:</cite><blockquote>Ive done some x2 and gear matches yesterday and im shocked right now. In the x2 a warden came into our base and got the flag and walked away like nothing happend. Truth is there was a handfull of dps trying to burn him and could not stop him at all. Yeah he went into red a few times but the final burn was not possible. Right now some healers are simply unkillable. Whether its the toughness mechanic or the imba cure of the inqui mythical i cant tell. But im sick being unable to burn certain healer with 4+ people unloading everything on him. The only reason a healer should stay alive with so many dps trying to kill him is when he has a decent tank stopping us. Im happy to see the toughnes change coming in and right now i wouldnt even mind a little cure nerf as in 1 vs 1 situation curing is destroying any dps that some classes bring (necros, coercers etc.)</blockquote>and here in lies the problem .. BG'S ARE NOT PVP ... WHY ARE PLAYERS FROM NON PVP SERVERS HAVING A SAY IN WHAT THE HELL HAPPENS IN WORLD PVP ... sorry but we never asked you to implement some moronic instance pvp and now we pay the price yet again.... when will you realize you can't give every carebear on the entire game everythign they want?? Quit catering to people who are crying about everything ... why should a non PVP server have ever gotten the same gear the PVP server did, just because they said we want it. Roll a tune on the pvp server and you can have it. People are being punished for playing their classes well because someone decided not being able to kill someone in 10 seconds is a crime ..... i'm not sure which is worse the constant crying about someone being too hard to kill or a Developer who is supose to have the best interest of the PVPers in mind catering to part time pvpers who consider BGs pvp. Ask your pvp servers what they think of the Battlegrounds .... 90 percent of them will tell you to remove them they are a waste of cyberspace. For those who are on the pvp server who love bg's my apologies you are in the minority.Quit attempting to "balance" classes so everyone is equal .. this is an MMO, we are supose to be interacting and grouping with our fellow faction members because grouping brings benefits....there is absolutely no reason to continue to glorify one class or archetype. When you ask for input on PVP I believe its the pvp server whose opinion should matter not the players who thing a BG is pvp.

Messia

10-05-2010, 03:10 AM

<cite>Brain@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>MindFury wrote:</cite><blockquote>So I've read through the b.s. and I've apparently missed something....or you all have...one of the two.</blockquote>Another thing you and others are missing too: The group your group is fighting will have the same problems with curing. You are acting like the changes will only affect you and your group, you all seem to forget that the enemy will have to deal with the changes as well.This means that your tank's taunts might stick better than now, the debuffs from your group might last longer, your DPS classes might get a few seconds more to actually stay on one target and so on. It will depend on what the healers cure, timing cures will be the key.Yes, yes, I know. Healers can't choose exactly what to cure and it might and will happen that you can't cure that mezz off of your group mate instantly for example. But instead of spam group curing (like it is right now, keeping groups nearly "clean" all the time) healers will need to use group cures and cures in general with more thought and group mates will need to communicate more.Before you jump me with something like "Typical, an OP assassin that likes the change, what a surprise!": Don't forget that those changes will effect me in group vs. group as well and I can't tell right now if I like, hate or don't care about the changes. We all will see how it turns out.What SOE should consider though is adding more immunities to control effects to balance the cure nerf a bit. Taunts, taunt locks, detaunts, detaunt locks and knockbacks are control effects but don't have immunity timers attached to them and I'm afraid that they will turn out to be too powerful.</blockquote>I might agree with you had assassins not been given some rediculous heal. Why is a predator healing at all .. i mean isn't that an oxymoron a scout being able to heal in the first place. Take healing abilities away from ALL classes except healers and i'll accept the nerf without question .... nerf the amount of dots scouts and casters can put on a player .. if i can only heal 4 dots.. why should you be able to stack dot after dot on me while i continue to be interrupted over and over and over and over. and you all think this is going to increase your dps, if a healer can't cure you .. how are you going to dps at all? Let me guess ...Predators are going to get some insane single target cure, i mean you got a heal already might as well give you cures too.

Messia

10-05-2010, 03:12 AM

Darkor

10-05-2010, 03:56 AM

<cite>Messia@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Ajjantis wrote:</cite><blockquote>Ive done some x2 and gear matches yesterday and im shocked right now. In the x2 a warden came into our base and got the flag and walked away like nothing happend. Truth is there was a handfull of dps trying to burn him and could not stop him at all. Yeah he went into red a few times but the final burn was not possible. Right now some healers are simply unkillable. Whether its the toughness mechanic or the imba cure of the inqui mythical i cant tell. But im sick being unable to burn certain healer with 4+ people unloading everything on him. The only reason a healer should stay alive with so many dps trying to kill him is when he has a decent tank stopping us. Im happy to see the toughnes change coming in and right now i wouldnt even mind a little cure nerf as in 1 vs 1 situation curing is destroying any dps that some classes bring (necros, coercers etc.)</blockquote>and here in lies the problem .. BG'S ARE NOT PVP ... WHY ARE PLAYERS FROM NON PVP SERVERS HAVING A SAY IN WHAT THE HELL HAPPENS IN WORLD PVP ... sorry but we never asked you to implement some moronic instance pvp and now we pay the price yet again.... when will you realize you can't give every carebear on the entire game everythign they want?? Quit catering to people who are crying about everything ... why should a non PVP server have ever gotten the same gear the PVP server did, just because they said we want it. Roll a tune on the pvp server and you can have it. People are being punished for playing their classes well because someone decided not being able to kill someone in 10 seconds is a crime ..... i'm not sure which is worse the constant crying about someone being too hard to kill or a Developer who is supose to have the best interest of the PVPers in mind catering to part time pvpers who consider BGs pvp. Ask your pvp servers what they think of the Battlegrounds .... 90 percent of them will tell you to remove them they are a waste of cyberspace. For those who are on the pvp server who love bg's my apologies you are in the minority.Quit attempting to "balance" classes so everyone is equal .. this is an MMO, we are supose to be interacting and grouping with our fellow faction members because grouping brings benefits....there is absolutely no reason to continue to glorify one class or archetype. When you ask for input on PVP I believe its the pvp server whose opinion should matter not the players who thing a BG is pvp.</blockquote>First take a deep breath, a very deep one. Then take a look at my signature and realize that all of these chars are on nagafen. Then understand that my Warden who i have not played in AGES has probably more pvp kills than your healer. Then understand that whatever you tried to tell me in your post makes no sense. When a warden is unkillable in a BG what makes you think it is different in open pvp? I gave you reasons why the combination of toughness, curing and heal abilities are OP. I used BGs as an example. I didnt promote BG over open pvp or anything. I was simply making a point which can be used in open pvp aswell. When a warden eats the dps of several scouts how can this be good? A single scout cannot kill a warden allready which is not fair because i think every class should have a chance. But right now even 2-3 scouts cannot kill a warden, how on earth do you justify that? The only reason a healer should survive is when he has a decent tank doing his job. Not because the broken toughness stat makes it impossible to kill because he will heal the poor dmg he is receiving and cures the few debuffs he receives. I welcome this change and do hope that it will balance some issues that are completely broken for now. If you people believe that heals wont be needed anymore then go delete them. Im gonna make sure to bring my healer out full time again and show you what the difference will be having a healer combined with a decent tank or two.

Shareana

10-05-2010, 07:28 AM

Keep on topic please. Bickering and insults are not needed on these forums.

Jab

10-05-2010, 07:47 AM

<cite>Toxicz@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Jabib@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Toxicz@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Jabib@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Notsovilepriest@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>Just nevermind, No matter what I say, Ralp will troll and act like he knows something, and a brigand won't admit their class will become OP because they don't want to hear that.</blockquote>=)So because my class "and all others" can stick a few debuffs then that suddenly makes my class OP !? Nothing will change with this update.I have been able to stack all my debuffs for a loooooooong time and nobody has been screaming bloody brigands and their OPness for years now..Here let me kill u with debuffs ?? Laughable m8..Also have u asked ur fav brigands about their view on ur assumption that brigands will be sins in disguise after next update !!??Im sure u will be laughed at..</blockquote>All scouts will be redic next LU, but Assassins and Rangers a bit more so. I don't know if you raid or not, but in raids Brigands de-buffs are almost worthless, however in pvp they play a huge part in how fast someone or a group dies. Brigands are OP, they are probably the most OP group vs group scout there is, in solo I'd say there second compared to Assassins. I wish they'd just leave the cures alone, and keep the toughness nerf so that pvp will still be some-what challenging; otherwise pvp will be ruined due to the little to no survivability.</blockquote>Im amazed u think brigs are good in grp pvp..We suck donkey balls due to ppl never standing still combined with our positionals..No brigand can ever dream of getting in top parse in grp pvp.Just a tip i dont care what u can do on ur brig tox,ur toon is not the benchmark for what brigs can do.In most non perfect setups a swashy with AA in MB will make the diffrence between win or loose.Sins will come close second and then rangers with brigs coming last.Maybe if our debuff made a diffrence compared to other classes then i will grant u a point for being right.But right now alot of classes can debuff just as good or better considering how troublesome it can be to have a back in pvp for more then 5sec.As for solo pvp i wont disagree.Brigs are a good toon and imo are the benchmark for how scouts should work,we can do good dps but it comes with a drawback "positionals and alot of em" unlike rangers/swashy/sins that have next to no drawbacks compared to brigands.Tbh what i think is going on here is that u look at ur own old twinked out toon in gear that only a handfull of ppl have and say "Look what i can do,u can do the same" but u dont realise that if everybody had ur gear then ur right back to square one with brigands being good but no way near OP as u make it out to be.CheersEdit:I think u are the only brigand i see in pvp tox.U would asume that there would be loads of us just like there is loads of rangers and sins.But i guess our OPenss is just a big secret =)</blockquote>Honestly man, Brigs are OP. My gear is nice, yes I do have some pieces that not many people outside of Onyx have, but the majority of my gear is pvp/instance or from TSO raids which is easily doable. In group pvp, I'm normally 1-5 on the parse depending on how many people there are in the fight. We have one of if not the the most OP temps in the game for pvp, a passive KB, which is death for healers/mage's/crusaders. My gear does help me in pvp, but you can't blame me for putting time into my character and obtaining pieces that help me do what I do(Which is only about 7 pieces of my gear), but saying its all about gear is completely bull, when I'm outparsing 90% of all the rangers, brigs, swashy's and assassins in group pvp.</blockquote>Well since brigs are so OP then why have most changed to swashy or started playing diff toons over the last year or so ?I repeat.U are the only brig i have seen in pvp besides myself.Now compare that to the old days when u saw brigs at the same rate as u see rangers/sins..If that dosent tell u something then i am sorry u cant see beyond ur own gear m8 =)And the temp u talk about is that the one where u end up knocking ur victim away from u just as u are about to set in a nice burn or when the victim is in red and thus get a chance to cast a heal instead of being finished of if they stood still infront of us.Gotcha =)Now before u scream bloody newb let me clarify ,a kb is a nice thing,but when it happens out of control like ours then it is almost 50/50 if its a good thing imo.I would much rather have 3kb CA then have our KB buff so i can time it for myself tbh and not this oh im about to finish him off and poff he is suddenly meters/yards away from u.For some reason i guess u have the +meleerange on ur gear and thus it is fine for u. But then we are back at my original point.U are not the benchmark for any scouts in the game m8 =) Feel free to correct me.If u are outparsing other scouts in pvp then why dont u do it in pve ?? I call bs on that statement m8.U are only remembering the few times where it was a good fight and not all the others where u got beat.Or may i suggest u roll with ppl that have gear equivilant to ur own next time ?Or may i suggest u roll in pvp more.I have seen u like 2 times out over the last month or so,and that was solo or duo with a healer.so i dont know where u get ur info from interms of parses =) I dont hope u are comparing urself to the ppl in other guilds cause that would just be too funny =)Either way hf on ur/our OP brig =)P.sLike i said eariler,brigs are a good toon for solo pvp.But OP is miles away from the truth..Safehouse changes,dispatch changes,double up changes all took the OPness out of that class and we all know it.Most ppl i know would love to fight brigs over sins/rangers any day of the week.And so would i on my other toons.

Proud_Silence

10-05-2010, 08:46 AM

Yo jabib, please don't mention rangers and assassins back to back when talking about OP pvp classes.And howcome you keep insisting on Assassins being so OP. for years we haven't been able to use our biggest dps source, concealment, in pvp, because it was just impossible to get more then 3 stealth attacks off during its duration. Now we got PFT so we can actually use our stealth CA's in controlable fashion.If we're so OP, where exactly are all the assassins ? i mean really, i don't see more assassins then brigands/swashies. Maybe it's the fact that Assassins die so fast unless they're extremely well geared and actually know how to play.We also just have 2 CC's, a root that breaks very fast because of all the procs you can't control, and the stifle. when fighting an assassin you pop a freedom of mind pot and you're good to go. but you know thatIf i'd have to compare RoK days with today, i have to say that Brigands were much more OP back then, opposed to Assassins now.I would gladly change the autoattack multiplier AA for an AA ability that gives me a mitigation debuff similar to brigs insane debuff.With upcoming changes to curing, your debuffs are going to be sick. think about it.And stop crying about Assassins, please. Cause i respect you, but not when you whine about assasssins, AND comparing them to [Removed for Content] rangers.

Jab

10-05-2010, 08:59 AM

<cite>Proud_Silence wrote:</cite><blockquote>Yo jabib, please don't mention rangers and assassins back to back when talking about OP pvp classes.And howcome you keep insisting on Assassins being so OP. for years we haven't been able to use our biggest dps source, concealment, in pvp, because it was just impossible to get more then 3 stealth attacks off during its duration. Now we got PFT so we can actually use our stealth CA's in controlable fashion.If we're so OP, where exactly are all the assassins ? i mean really, i don't see more assassins then brigands/swashies. Maybe it's the fact that Assassins die so fast unless they're extremely well geared and actually know how to play.We also just have 2 CC's, a root that breaks very fast because of all the procs you can't control, and the stifle. when fighting an assassin you pop a freedom of mind pot and you're good to go. but you know thatIf i'd have to compare RoK days with today, i have to say that Brigands were much more OP back then, opposed to Assassins now.I would gladly change the autoattack multiplier AA for an AA ability that gives me a mitigation debuff similar to brigs insane debuff.With upcoming changes to curing, your debuffs are going to be sick. think about it.And stop crying about Assassins, please. Cause i respect you, but not when you whine about assasssins, AND comparing them to [Removed for Content] rangers.</blockquote>May i suggest u go to the broker and look up some brig debuff and hit the pvp checkbox =)Now do that with other classes debuffs+their AA debuff and u will find out that its a myth brigands have "insane" debuffs that will make or break a fight =) Its a myth m8 =)Hehe im not gonna argue about sins being OP with u.I will just let the crowd speak for it self =) I think the verdict is pretty clear about what happend to ur class this xpac aba.

Jab

10-05-2010, 09:13 AM

<cite>Toxicz@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Ralpmet wrote:</cite><blockquote>Cmon tox, you can't say 7 pieces of gear isn't nearing more than a minority of your gear <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" /></blockquote>Thats why I said ABOUT. Looking at my gear now, I have a Wrist, Ear, Charm, Ranged weapon, and those are the only pieces that really make a dif, that are either TSO or SF raids. so only 4 items that make some-what of a dif.... so yea 17 > 4</blockquote>What about ur weps ?Afterall weps for scouts is our bread and butter.Its prolly the one/two slots that gives us the most bang for our bucks.

Darkor

10-05-2010, 09:25 AM

Brigands debuff being godlike is a myth, its simple as that. Click on the pvp box and all debuffs get nerfed down heavily. I went swashbuckler quite some time ago and i dont miss dispatch at all. Why? I have one attack that debuffs almost as much mitigation as dispatch in pvp but has no positional restriction. I feel sorry for brigands even tho they are a nice 1 vs 1 class. People need also to realize how hard it can be getting dispatch off. Sometimes its a pain in the butt to land it, especially when the enemy knows what hes doing. Anyway back to topic. Yes brigands are perfect to hunt healers, but theres also healers out there with their big bad 2hander who burn me down before i get throu their reactives/wards. Balancing this game is near impossible as some classes will always have advantages against some. When a healer is trying to defend his class they always mention OP scouts. There are not only scouts out there. How does a guardian do against a healer? a dirge? a troubador? Theres plenty classes out there that do not stand a single chance against a healer.

MMKA

10-05-2010, 11:07 AM

Not only do scouts have chain, track, stuns, target drops, insane heals and extremely high dps, they also have mental breach. Any scout that can't kill a healer either isn't geared properly or doesn't know how to play their class. Granted, it may take 5 mins to drain their power (OMG, you mean I can't kill a healer in less than 5 seconds!!)but mental breach is probably the most op thing in the game right now.Likewise, with the little amount of dps healers put out, no evenly geared tank should ever die in a 1v1 with a healer. Same with mages. I have had many 45 min fights with mages and tanks on my inq where we just finally gave up and walked away.Sure, a good healer may be able to heal/cure through a full group of crappy geared players who don't know how to play their class, but there is no way they will kill the group - all they can do is stand there and keep themselves alive and hope for help to arrive.

Dareena

10-05-2010, 11:13 AM

<cite>Ajjantis wrote:</cite><blockquote>People need also to realize how hard it can be getting dispatch off. Sometimes its a pain in the butt to land it, especially when the enemy knows what hes doing. Anyway back to topic. Yes brigands are perfect to hunt healers, but theres also healers out there with their big bad 2hander who burn me down before i get throu their reactives/wards.</blockquote>Amen to that. There's a reason why I'm forced to take 9 ranks of the Rogue spinning root CA (Walk the Plank) for my PvP spec. Let alone all of the annoying players who constantly weave and bob all over the place. Being a Brigand isn't all that it's cracked up to be since we've got the most rear positions around.If you're a Rogue class, then it's possible to solo a healer. The Brigand taunt (and the Swash taunt since the resist consolidations) will dispell heals and the stoneskin buffs from Crusaders / Clerics. But having said that, it really doesn't guarantee anything. In fact, I actually have a kind of running joke with an iksar defiler who I normally end up facing in the BGs. Should one of us see the other, then we'll usually try to dual each other in some random corner of Smugglers. Even with all of my dispells and skills against his skills, it's still completely random. To be honest, I can usually only kill him about 1/3 of the time. However all of these fights are very long and completely back and forth. Then once we're on the same team later on in the night, we'll end up razzing each other about who's been winning that day.Healers are just very hard to put down. With all of their curing (to cancel debuffs), heals, and Toughness, they're very difficult. I myself have also experienced the annoying cliche of having 3-4 people trying to kill a solo healer. It's really not very funny. While I can't control everyone around me, I know that I'm at least packing full masters and AA. When it's that lop sided, something is wrong.I'm curious to see if the Toughness reduction and the curing changes will make a noticeable difference. Only time will tell.

Jab

10-05-2010, 11:19 AM

<cite>MMKA wrote:</cite><blockquote>Not only do scouts have chain, track, stuns, target drops, insane heals and extremely high dps, they also have mental breach. Any scout that can't kill a healer either isn't geared properly or doesn't know how to play their class. Granted, it may take 5 mins to drain their power (OMG, you mean I can't kill a healer in less than 5 seconds!!)but mental breach is probably the most op thing in the game right now.Likewise, with the little amount of dps healers put out, no evenly geared tank should ever die in a 1v1 with a healer. Same with mages. I have had many 45 min fights with mages and tanks on my inq where we just finally gave up and walked away.Sure, a good healer may be able to heal/cure through a full group of crappy geared players who don't know how to play their class, but there is no way they will kill the group - all they can do is stand there and keep themselves alive and hope for help to arrive.</blockquote>Scouts have nice things going for them no doubt.But most healers can put up some very decent dps of their own if specced right.Other then that most of ur post is somewhere within reason =)Oh u play an inq =) so do i.We can put up some very very decent dps so i dunno what ur problem is with that class specificly

Proud_Silence

10-05-2010, 11:31 AM

<cite>Jabib@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Proud_Silence wrote:</cite><blockquote>Yo jabib, please don't mention rangers and assassins back to back when talking about OP pvp classes.And howcome you keep insisting on Assassins being so OP. for years we haven't been able to use our biggest dps source, concealment, in pvp, because it was just impossible to get more then 3 stealth attacks off during its duration. Now we got PFT so we can actually use our stealth CA's in controlable fashion.If we're so OP, where exactly are all the assassins ? i mean really, i don't see more assassins then brigands/swashies. Maybe it's the fact that Assassins die so fast unless they're extremely well geared and actually know how to play.We also just have 2 CC's, a root that breaks very fast because of all the procs you can't control, and the stifle. when fighting an assassin you pop a freedom of mind pot and you're good to go. but you know thatIf i'd have to compare RoK days with today, i have to say that Brigands were much more OP back then, opposed to Assassins now.I would gladly change the autoattack multiplier AA for an AA ability that gives me a mitigation debuff similar to brigs insane debuff.With upcoming changes to curing, your debuffs are going to be sick. think about it.And stop crying about Assassins, please. Cause i respect you, but not when you whine about assasssins, AND comparing them to [Removed for Content] rangers.</blockquote>May i suggest u go to the broker and look up some brig debuff and hit the pvp checkbox =)Now do that with other classes debuffs+their AA debuff and u will find out that its a myth brigands have "insane" debuffs that will make or break a fight =) Its a myth m8 =)Hehe im not gonna argue about sins being OP with u.I will just let the crowd speak for it self =) I think the verdict is pretty clear about what happend to ur class this xpac aba.</blockquote>We got the love we deserved <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />To be honest, i could live with Shadowstep not dealing any poison at all ( IN PVP), since it's the teleport part that makes this ability so awesome for us when fighting other players. Predator final trick is fine in PVE, i wouldn't mind if it wouldn't grant 40% crit bonus in pvp, BUT then duration should be increased from 12 to 15 or even 20 seconds. Right now it is very obvious that good pvp'ers have the PFT trigger message in ACT, since i get CC'ed 2 or 3 seconds after i pop it, fairly often. the time window where an assassin is more dangerous then any other predator or rogue is extremely short, you have to have temps running and PFT. when those abilities are down, we are not more or less dangerous then a swash or brigand. This is why you see many Assassins engage a fight and burn all the big stuff right away.@MMKA: The different armor types don't reflect how well someone will survive physical damage, you can look at Sorcerors and Brawlers, cloth and leather wearer, and then tell me again that Chain is in any way special.Track is nice to have, but it doesnt help you win or lose a fight at allInsane heals ? if scouts have insane heals, what do Crusaders, berserkers, necros and healers have ? zomgwtf super mega insane heals ? Scouts can't control WHEN they heal, aside from very few exceptions ( touch of the nightshade), we all probably saw some random scout sitting at 30% HP and with a few lucky procs they go back to green, but that's not something scouts can actively control.I've seen inquis in T9 instances solo healing the group with ease AND dealing 20k dps zonewide. If it's not ok for scouts to heal then i don't want to see Priests doing VERY GOOD dps.Mental Breech: Calling it the most OP thing in the game is...your personal opinion, and IMO far from the truth. It was much more useful in TSO, when ONE scout could drain a warden in about 10 -20 sec. Today in T9, when running in a group i always have mental breech running, + 2 items that proc a mana drain, and guess what, it has literally no impact on healers. I use it to drain tanks tbh. I think MB is affected by toughness too, because i see it draining 0 power from my target very often.The longer this game exists, the more blurry the boundaries between classes get. Tanks outhealing priests, priests outdamaging casters and scouts, casters mitigating better then tanks...all these things can happen today. If you, MMKA, don't want scouts to heal the way they do, then you shouldn't be able to dps, nor should tanks, because hey, they're supposed to taunt and take dmg aren't they ?

Toxicz

10-05-2010, 11:32 AM

<cite>Jabib@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Toxicz@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Jabib@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Toxicz@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Jabib@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Notsovilepriest@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>Just nevermind, No matter what I say, Ralp will troll and act like he knows something, and a brigand won't admit their class will become OP because they don't want to hear that.</blockquote>=)So because my class "and all others" can stick a few debuffs then that suddenly makes my class OP !? Nothing will change with this update.I have been able to stack all my debuffs for a loooooooong time and nobody has been screaming bloody brigands and their OPness for years now..Here let me kill u with debuffs ?? Laughable m8..Also have u asked ur fav brigands about their view on ur assumption that brigands will be sins in disguise after next update !!??Im sure u will be laughed at..</blockquote>All scouts will be redic next LU, but Assassins and Rangers a bit more so. I don't know if you raid or not, but in raids Brigands de-buffs are almost worthless, however in pvp they play a huge part in how fast someone or a group dies. Brigands are OP, they are probably the most OP group vs group scout there is, in solo I'd say there second compared to Assassins. I wish they'd just leave the cures alone, and keep the toughness nerf so that pvp will still be some-what challenging; otherwise pvp will be ruined due to the little to no survivability.</blockquote>Im amazed u think brigs are good in grp pvp..We suck donkey balls due to ppl never standing still combined with our positionals..No brigand can ever dream of getting in top parse in grp pvp.Just a tip i dont care what u can do on ur brig tox,ur toon is not the benchmark for what brigs can do.In most non perfect setups a swashy with AA in MB will make the diffrence between win or loose.Sins will come close second and then rangers with brigs coming last.Maybe if our debuff made a diffrence compared to other classes then i will grant u a point for being right.But right now alot of classes can debuff just as good or better considering how troublesome it can be to have a back in pvp for more then 5sec.As for solo pvp i wont disagree.Brigs are a good toon and imo are the benchmark for how scouts should work,we can do good dps but it comes with a drawback "positionals and alot of em" unlike rangers/swashy/sins that have next to no drawbacks compared to brigands.Tbh what i think is going on here is that u look at ur own old twinked out toon in gear that only a handfull of ppl have and say "Look what i can do,u can do the same" but u dont realise that if everybody had ur gear then ur right back to square one with brigands being good but no way near OP as u make it out to be.CheersEdit:I think u are the only brigand i see in pvp tox.U would asume that there would be loads of us just like there is loads of rangers and sins.But i guess our OPenss is just a big secret =)</blockquote>Honestly man, Brigs are OP. My gear is nice, yes I do have some pieces that not many people outside of Onyx have, but the majority of my gear is pvp/instance or from TSO raids which is easily doable. In group pvp, I'm normally 1-5 on the parse depending on how many people there are in the fight. We have one of if not the the most OP temps in the game for pvp, a passive KB, which is death for healers/mage's/crusaders. My gear does help me in pvp, but you can't blame me for putting time into my character and obtaining pieces that help me do what I do(Which is only about 7 pieces of my gear), but saying its all about gear is completely bull, when I'm outparsing 90% of all the rangers, brigs, swashy's and assassins in group pvp.</blockquote>Well since brigs are so OP then why have most changed to swashy or started playing diff toons over the last year or so ?I repeat.U are the only brig i have seen in pvp besides myself.Now compare that to the old days when u saw brigs at the same rate as u see rangers/sins..If that dosent tell u something then i am sorry u cant see beyond ur own gear m8 =)And the temp u talk about is that the one where u end up knocking ur victim away from u just as u are about to set in a nice burn or when the victim is in red and thus get a chance to cast a heal instead of being finished of if they stood still infront of us.Gotcha =)Now before u scream bloody newb let me clarify ,a kb is a nice thing,but when it happens out of control like ours then it is almost 50/50 if its a good thing imo.I would much rather have 3kb CA then have our KB buff so i can time it for myself tbh and not this oh im about to finish him off and poff he is suddenly meters/yards away from u.For some reason i guess u have the +meleerange on ur gear and thus it is fine for u. But then we are back at my original point.U are not the benchmark for any scouts in the game m8 =) Feel free to correct me.If u are outparsing other scouts in pvp then why dont u do it in pve ?? I call bs on that statement m8.U are only remembering the few times where it was a good fight and not all the others where u got beat.Or may i suggest u roll with ppl that have gear equivilant to ur own next time ?Or may i suggest u roll in pvp more.I have seen u like 2 times out over the last month or so,and that was solo or duo with a healer.so i dont know where u get ur info from interms of parses =) I dont hope u are comparing urself to the ppl in other guilds cause that would just be too funny =)Either way hf on ur/our OP brig =)P.sLike i said eariler,brigs are a good toon for solo pvp.But OP is miles away from the truth..Safehouse changes,dispatch changes,double up changes all took the OPness out of that class and we all know it.Most ppl i know would love to fight brigs over sins/rangers any day of the week.And so would i on my other toons.</blockquote>The reason people don't play brig all that much anymore, is either a) all the ones who were good quit or b) people changed to a different scout class because it was "more OP".If you think the temp is more of a nuisance than something useful simply don't use it, but for me its one of the most OP abilities in the game.Yea I don't pvp as much as i used too, but I doubt anything has changed since about 1-2 months ago. And if your going to cry about people having better gear than you, you can either get the gear yourself, or don't. If your not willing to put the time and effort in to get the best gear in game, then that's on you, i don't care about your RL or whatever other excuse there is, but don't use that as an excuse to why people are better than you. Hell as i stated in my previous posts I have about 4 pieces of gear that make a difference, but those 4 pieces don't put me at such high level of playing by them selves, me knowing the in and outs of my class, pvp in general do.I guess you could consider me a Benchmark for the class, I know everything about, I excel far past anyone else at it, so yea I guess I am the benchmark. Just Because someone in group vs group pvp does more dps than you doesn't necessarily mean they won the fight for the group. Brigs have more utility(massive amounts of mitigation de-buffs, KBs, CC) in pvp than any other dps scout, if you honestly can't see that then something is wrong with you.Before you start talking about pve, i suggest you do your research before you make yourself look stupid. PVE and PVP parsing are 2 completely different things. Brigands are on the low end of all dps scouts parse wise, but yet I still parse up there with the best swashy's and other rangers, and no I don't parse high as the best Sins because there on a whole-nother level in pve. I suggest you read flames and compare parses before you go talking about something you have no clue about.To end this, yea I am the benchmark.

nastymatt

10-05-2010, 11:47 AM

Not Messia who used to be in Europa/Valhalla and role with Willyevac/Wytchdoctor/Laste by any chance?

Cloakentuna

10-05-2010, 12:19 PM

Arguing that brigs are not currently rediculously strong with the potential to be complete monsters, especially after this next update, is one of the dumbest things I've ever read on this board.Just because there is maybe 1 or 2 people that know what they are doing on the class doesn't mean the class is weak.

Jab

10-05-2010, 12:44 PM

Nobody said brigs where not good or anything like that.So take a chill pill froggy.But this is so typical.The ppl with the best gear always think the game is just fine and dandy,I wonder why that is so!!!Plz clarify why pve and pvp parses are diffrent ??If u can do loads of dps in pve then why cant u do it in pvp and wise versa ??Its the same as if u can take a beating in pve "tanks" then u can also take it in pvp.I mean its the same fricking classes with the same spells.ecaxtly the same !?Plz explain again ...Just to play devils advocate here =)Brigands are easy to [Removed for Content] in pvp by simply moving a few steps away.Dot classes can be cured but other then that i cant see the big diffrence =)

EverSkelly

10-05-2010, 12:56 PM

i have read so much nonsense in this thread, so much pointless whining from healers..How the **** are changes to CURING going to make SCOUTS overpowered?Die from scouts DoTs often..?

Jab

10-05-2010, 01:02 PM

Toxicz

10-05-2010, 01:08 PM

<cite>Jabib@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>Nobody said brigs where not good or anything like that.So take a chill pill froggy.But this is so typical.The ppl with the best gear always think the game is just fine and dandy,I wonder why that is so!!!Plz clarify why pve and pvp parses are diffrent ??If u can do loads of dps in pve then why cant u do it in pvp and wise versa ??Its the same as if u can take a beating in pve "tanks" then u can also take it in pvp.I mean its the same fricking classes with the same spells.ecaxtly the same !?Plz explain again ...</blockquote>I'm pretty sure you said brigs are underpowered a few times, and nothing compared to other scouts in group pvp.If people put more time and effort into there class to become the best they possible can why shouldn't they be the best? Yes my gear is awesome, I put alot of time into getting it, sad part is less than 1/4 of my gear is pve, at least the stuff that makes the difference. I bet I could put on full PVP gear and still do better than 90% of the scouts on naggy.If you honestly need someone to explain to you how pve and pvp parsing is different, then you need to learn a little bit more about the game. And idk if you didn't read what i said, but I do out-parse the majority of scouts in pvp....

Toxicz

10-05-2010, 01:09 PM

Ekelefer

10-05-2010, 01:16 PM

My only comment is that SOE should try tweaking things before dragging them across the entire sprectrum of their effectiveness. Fourty seconds isn't even theoretically a sound number. They are exchanging one extreme for the other rather than gradually tweaking the ability until something reasonable is gotten.Now we will go from cures being able to render some key abilities and class dynamics null, to key abilities and class dynamics being greatly exaggerated (just as cures currently are). How will they compensate for this obvious exaggeration of certain elements? Will they then drag those elements across the spectrum of their effectiveness and leave them useless?There is one player driven strategy available to healers that will render this nerf not so damaging. DPS will have to be coordinated against players whose detrimental and DOT effects are very potent. The killing of these players will "cure" any ailments said player currently has in effect. What needs to be tested though is whether or not DPSers will be able to down the players that benefit most from this nerf, or will the nerf ipso facto leave DPS too overwhelmed by CC, detrimentals and DOTs?Nevermind about PUGs. Any healer caught is a PUG is caught dead in a PUG.

Jab

10-05-2010, 01:20 PM

<cite>Toxicz@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Jabib@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>Nobody said brigs where not good or anything like that.So take a chill pill froggy.But this is so typical.The ppl with the best gear always think the game is just fine and dandy,I wonder why that is so!!!Plz clarify why pve and pvp parses are diffrent ??If u can do loads of dps in pve then why cant u do it in pvp and wise versa ??Its the same as if u can take a beating in pve "tanks" then u can also take it in pvp.I mean its the same fricking classes with the same spells.ecaxtly the same !?Plz explain again ...</blockquote>I'm pretty sure you said brigs are underpowered a few times, and nothing compared to other scouts in group pvp.If people put more time and effort into there class to become the best they possible can why shouldn't they be the best? Yes my gear is awesome, I put alot of time into getting it, sad part is less than 1/4 of my gear is pve, at least the stuff that makes the difference. I bet I could put on full PVP gear and still do better than 90% of the scouts on naggy.If you honestly need someone to explain to you how pve and pvp parsing is different, then you need to learn a little bit more about the game. And idk if you didn't read what i said, but I do out-parse the majority of scouts in pvp....</blockquote>Im pretty sure i never said brigs where underpowered.What i said was that brigs are good in solo and not so good in grp pvp as the other 3 scouts.Yes its ur skills that outparse ppl and not ur gear..Gotcha =)And why did i just know u would throw the remark in yellow at me.I will read it like this -> You dont know urself.Anyways we are going back and forth now and it wont be long before an admin will see it aswell.So i suggest u give one last rebuttle and then we call it quits m8 =)Im giving u the last word.Dont abuse it plz

Wytie

10-05-2010, 01:23 PM

I just dont like what this will do to contested content for everyone.Just get the healers engaged and byebye group cures, yea someone is not thinking this through.

Aiyana

10-05-2010, 01:35 PM

Toughness already killed what was fun about contested pvp...you have a raid that is in pve gear and a contesting group in pvp gear, and because they so desperately wanted to separate the two it's more gear based than anything else...another aspect of the game ruined to appease the mediocre.

Ekelefer

10-05-2010, 01:39 PM

I'd like to add the following in hopes that if SOE is reading this board they'll pose to themselves this question:What is the point of testing this on the Test server?Currently Cures are very effective and, in fact, in the right hands are too effective and undermine the contribution of certain elements and their respective classes. This is an extreme on the side of the spectrum that benefits healers most. Obviously this is bad.The change will take Cures to the otherside of the spectrum; the other extreme. What your proposing will hardly benefit a healer and, in fact, will benefit his enemy almost entirely. The only data you could hope to glean from testing this exaggerated number is how bad will it be. We already know that it will be bad.Understanding this simple fact poses the question "why are you bothering to test it in the first place?" Why not begin with a more realistic number so that the data is actually relevant and a legitimate tweaking of Cures can be made. As it stands now you are testing the other extreme of the Cure spectrum and the only thing you can learn from that is in which way will it mess things up, and how bad will it mess them up. It's a waste of your time, the time of players bothering to test it and projected time in the future when you'll obviously have to backtrack and figure out a rational number.

Jab

10-05-2010, 01:43 PM

<cite>Ekeleferal wrote:</cite><blockquote>I'd like to add the following in hopes that if SOE is reading this board they'll pose to themselves this question:What is the point of testing this on the Test server?Currently Cures are very effective and, in fact, in the right hands are too effective and undermine the contribution of certain elements and their respective classes. This is an extreme on the side of the spectrum that benefits healers most. Obviously this is bad.The change will take Cures to the otherside of the spectrum; the other extreme. What your proposing will hardly benefit a healer and, in fact, will benefit his enemy almost entirely. The only data you could hope to glean from testing this exaggerated number is how bad will it be. We already know that it will be bad.Understanding this simple fact poses the question "why are you bothering to test it in the first place?" Why not begin with a more realistic number so that the data is actually relevant and a legitimate tweaking of Cures can be made. As it stands now you are testing the other extreme of the Cure spectrum and the only thing you can learn from that is in which way will it mess things up, and how bad will it mess them up. It's a waste of your time, the time of players bothering to test it and projected time in the future when you'll obviously have to backtrack and figure out a rational number.</blockquote>/reported for making too much sense for this forum..Sorry m8

Aiyana

10-05-2010, 01:49 PM

A kitten dies everytime you type m8 in your post...just keep that in mind

Jab

10-05-2010, 01:53 PM

Crap.And i sooo love cute kittens.I feel so bad now...

Jab

10-05-2010, 01:56 PM

<cite>Paill@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>I just dont like what this will do to contested content for everyone.Just get the healers engaged and byebye group cures, yea someone is not thinking this through.</blockquote>What contested ?I was not aware we had contested worth taking down this xpac..Correct me if im wrong plz..

Aiyana

10-05-2010, 02:06 PM

<cite>Paill@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>I just dont like what this will do to contested content for everyone.Just get the healers engaged and byebye group cures, yea someone is not thinking this through.</blockquote>Yeah can you imagine what one person blocking a contested will be able to do if you just keep the raid in pvp combat on a mob like klak that has multiple aoes to cure, not to mention the fears and the stuns and such. Blocking will be based on broken pvp abilities.

Toxicz

10-05-2010, 02:20 PM

<cite>Jabib@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Toxicz@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Jabib@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>Nobody said brigs where not good or anything like that.So take a chill pill froggy.But this is so typical.The ppl with the best gear always think the game is just fine and dandy,I wonder why that is so!!!Plz clarify why pve and pvp parses are diffrent ??If u can do loads of dps in pve then why cant u do it in pvp and wise versa ??Its the same as if u can take a beating in pve "tanks" then u can also take it in pvp.I mean its the same fricking classes with the same spells.ecaxtly the same !?Plz explain again ...</blockquote>I'm pretty sure you said brigs are underpowered a few times, and nothing compared to other scouts in group pvp.If people put more time and effort into there class to become the best they possible can why shouldn't they be the best? Yes my gear is awesome, I put alot of time into getting it, sad part is less than 1/4 of my gear is pve, at least the stuff that makes the difference. I bet I could put on full PVP gear and still do better than 90% of the scouts on naggy.If you honestly need someone to explain to you how pve and pvp parsing is different, then you need to learn a little bit more about the game. And idk if you didn't read what i said, but I do out-parse the majority of scouts in pvp....</blockquote>Im pretty sure i never said brigs where underpowered.What i said was that brigs are good in solo and not so good in grp pvp as the other 3 scouts.Yes its ur skills that outparse ppl and not ur gear..Gotcha =)And why did i just know u would throw the remark in yellow at me.I will read it like this -> You dont know urself.Anyways we are going back and forth now and it wont be long before an admin will see it aswell.So i suggest u give one last rebuttle and then we call it quits m8 =)Im giving u the last word.Dont abuse it plz</blockquote>So you need me to explain to you the differences between pvp and pve parsing? OK I'll give it a shot. In PVE everything is scripted, once you've killed a mob you know everything about it, in pvp nothing is scripted. You can't predict what someone is going to do, unless you've fought them multiple times and they do the same thing over and over.Now for the parsing; Assassins in PVE can do w/e they to the mob because the tank has it positioned in a certain way, so they can get all there back attacks off, the mob isn't targeting them or keeping them from going stealth so they can get all there stealth abilities off. They can time the mobs AE's with GC or ACT, allowing them to get AE immune buffs, or use there damage reduction abilities to stay in on the mob to continue doing dps. In pvp Assassins harder hitting CA's hit from 1-7k(depending on if Predator's Final Trick is up), In pve they hit from 20-350k's, that's a pretty big difference in damage, not to mention the majority of there dps is massive spike.Rangers aren't much different, they hit A LOT harder in pve than they do in pvp, they don't have to be stealth but in pvp if someone is riding the rangers a** they can't do anything because of the 2m min range on there bow, so they either have to get extremely far out from a healer and possibly die( to CC, being our of range for heals, and just getting burned) or stay in closer to be taunted locked down to CC, and such. Rangers like Assassins are massive spike dps, once the spike is gone there not to bad, but still pretty dangerous in GROUP PVP.Rogues however are the still the kings of grp pvp as far as scouts go. Swashy's don't have a TON of CC, but they have AE-autos and Enhanced mental breach(which yes is OP) which can either help them or hurt them depending on the other group's tank. Brigands have a lot of utilties( CC,mit de-buffs, and KBS) and were great single target dps, Not mention both classes of DoM and if timed right it can kill almost anyone or the entire group. Brigs and swashy's dps in PVE used to be much different, but not so much anymore, swashy's used to own brigs on parses now its a bit more even in pve. With the current changes swashy's should do more dps than me in pvp, but yet theres only ONE who does, and thats Xloitl, and don't even try the gear card, he doesn't raid. He out parses me and I out parse him, it goes back and forth, but as I said in my other post just because someone is doing more dps, doesn't mean they won the fight for the group.

Jab

10-05-2010, 02:31 PM

<cite>Toxicz@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Jabib@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Toxicz@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Jabib@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>Nobody said brigs where not good or anything like that.So take a chill pill froggy.But this is so typical.The ppl with the best gear always think the game is just fine and dandy,I wonder why that is so!!!Plz clarify why pve and pvp parses are diffrent ??If u can do loads of dps in pve then why cant u do it in pvp and wise versa ??Its the same as if u can take a beating in pve "tanks" then u can also take it in pvp.I mean its the same fricking classes with the same spells.ecaxtly the same !?Plz explain again ...</blockquote>I'm pretty sure you said brigs are underpowered a few times, and nothing compared to other scouts in group pvp.If people put more time and effort into there class to become the best they possible can why shouldn't they be the best? Yes my gear is awesome, I put alot of time into getting it, sad part is less than 1/4 of my gear is pve, at least the stuff that makes the difference. I bet I could put on full PVP gear and still do better than 90% of the scouts on naggy.If you honestly need someone to explain to you how pve and pvp parsing is different, then you need to learn a little bit more about the game. And idk if you didn't read what i said, but I do out-parse the majority of scouts in pvp....</blockquote>Im pretty sure i never said brigs where underpowered.What i said was that brigs are good in solo and not so good in grp pvp as the other 3 scouts.Yes its ur skills that outparse ppl and not ur gear..Gotcha =)And why did i just know u would throw the remark in yellow at me.I will read it like this -> You dont know urself.Anyways we are going back and forth now and it wont be long before an admin will see it aswell.So i suggest u give one last rebuttle and then we call it quits m8 =)Im giving u the last word.Dont abuse it plz</blockquote>So you need me to explain to you the differences between pvp and pve parsing? OK I'll give it a shot. In PVE everything is scripted, once you've killed a mob you know everything about it, in pvp nothing is scripted. You can't predict what someone is going to do, unless you've fought them multiple times and they do the same thing over and over.Now for the parsing; Assassins in PVE can do w/e they to the mob because the tank has it positioned in a certain way, so they can get all there back attacks off, the mob isn't targeting them or keeping them from going stealth so they can get all there stealth abilities off. They can time the mobs AE's with GC or ACT, allowing them to get AE immune buffs, or use there damage reduction abilities to stay in on the mob to continue doing dps. In pvp Assassins harder hitting CA's hit from 1-7k(depending on if Predator's Final Trick is up), In pve they hit from 20-350k's, that's a pretty big difference in damage, not to mention the majority of there dps is massive spike.Rangers aren't much different, they hit A LOT harder in pve than they do in pvp, they don't have to be stealth but in pvp if someone is riding the rangers a** they can't do anything because of the 2m min range on there bow, so they either have to get extremely far out from a healer and possibly die( to CC, being our of range for heals, and just getting burned) or stay in closer to be taunted locked down to CC, and such. Rangers like Assassins are massive spike dps, once the spike is gone there not to bad, but still pretty dangerous in GROUP PVP.Rogues however are the still the kings of grp pvp as far as scouts go. Swashy's don't have a TON of CC, but they have AE-autos and Enhanced mental breach(which yes is OP) which can either help them or hurt them depending on the other group's tank. Brigands have a lot of utilties( CC,mit de-buffs, and KBS) and were great single target dps, Not mention both classes of DoM and if timed right it can kill almost anyone or the entire group. Brigs and swashy's dps in PVE used to be much different, but not so much anymore, swashy's used to own brigs on parses now its a bit more even in pve. With the current changes swashy's should do more dps than me in pvp, but yet theres only ONE who does, and thats Xloitl, and don't even try the gear card, he doesn't raid. He out parses me and I out parse him, it goes back and forth, but as I said in my other post just because someone is doing more dps, doesn't mean they won the fight for the group.</blockquote>Sounds fair enough.Ofc i disagree on some parts, but as promised i wont continue our little "debate" here.

Aiyana

10-05-2010, 02:32 PM

Don't give up jabib, i thought you had complete control of this debate. Toxicz is a tool

Jab

10-05-2010, 02:36 PM

<cite>Aiyana@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>Don't give up jabib, i thought you had complete control of this debate. Toxicz is a tool</blockquote>Hehe..Im sure he is =)But out of respect to the OP "Original poster in this case" i will not go back and forth..We have both made our points.Granted im sure we can go on and on but it is not worth it.Besides this thread have allrdy recieved one warning for not staying on topic.What ever that was =)

Notsovilepriest

10-05-2010, 03:33 PM

3.2k Everything on 1 debuff, and then still have another over 2k Everything, then finally 1.5k Everything between Debilitiate and Rake. That's enough to nearly Zero out mit of any class not in plate and put a hurt on plate.<img src="http://img826.imageshack.us/img826/3852/eq2000032.jpg" width="1217" height="470" />

Darkor

10-05-2010, 03:50 PM

It is NEAR impossible to get all 3 miti debuffs off. I know what im talking about and with all the curing they become useless anyway.

Crismorn

10-05-2010, 04:04 PM

All I read is that you dont know how to stack detriments

Notsovilepriest

10-05-2010, 04:13 PM

<cite>Ajjantis wrote:</cite><blockquote>It is NEAR impossible to get all 3 miti debuffs off. I know what im talking about and with all the curing they become useless anyway.</blockquote>Did you know! Because of PvE mechanics of how Dispatch and the other mit debuffs are coded, they are the last of their respective detriments to come of from curing?

Jab

10-05-2010, 04:26 PM

<cite>Notsovilepriest@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>3.2k Everything on 1 debuff, and then still have another over 2k Everything, then finally 1.5k Everything between Debilitiate and Rake. That's enough to nearly Zero out mit of any class not in plate and put a hurt on plate.<img src="http://img826.imageshack.us/img826/3852/eq2000032.jpg" width="1217" height="470" /></blockquote>GL getting all of em off is all i can say. I can count on two hands how many times i have had 3 backattacks chained together in pvp.Also rake is not a miti debuff and as such it dosent help brigands with anything.it is only a dmg spell for us.Only good spell of the 3 is cornered.But that has a low duration that when the lagg is fatcored in u are left with next to no time.If i had the range of a ranger then i would be on easy street.But sadly ppl are not standing still u know =) If u dont play a brig "with the most positional req in game" then u will never understand what im talking about.Now go out and inspect other classes debuffs and then come back m8.Right now u are only telling half the story.Remeber brigs are leaps and bounds ahead of other classes in the debuff department according to u guys.So there better be some weak azz debuffs out there or else u just ended up proving my point even more.I thank u .

Notsovilepriest

10-05-2010, 04:30 PM

<cite>Jabib@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Notsovilepriest@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>3.2k Everything on 1 debuff, and then still have another over 2k Everything, then finally 1.5k Everything between Debilitiate and Rake. That's enough to nearly Zero out mit of any class not in plate and put a hurt on plate.<img src="http://img826.imageshack.us/img826/3852/eq2000032.jpg" width="1217" height="470" /></blockquote>GL getting all of em off is all i can say. I can count on two hands how many times i have had 3 backattacks chained together in pvp.Also rake is not a miti debuff and as such it dosent help brigands with anything.it is only a dmg spell for us.Only good spell of the 3 is cornered.But that has a low duration that when the lagg is fatcored in u are left with next to no time.If i had the range of a ranger then i would be on easy street.But sadly ppl are not standing still u know =) If u dont play a brig "with the most positional req in game" then u will never understand what im talking about.Now go out and inspect other classes debuffs and then come back m8.Right now u are only telling half the story.Remeber brigs are leaps and bounds ahead of other classes in the debuff department according to u guys.So there better be some weak azz debuffs out there or else u just ended up proving my point even more.I thank u .</blockquote>Brigs aren't nearly AE immune 40%+ in PvP so immune to group taunts, They also don't have any of those debuffs to nearly zero mit, or blackjack to stop someone from turning. On rake, though you don't have any elemental, arcane, or poison procs as a brig?

Jab

10-05-2010, 04:32 PM

Gungo

10-05-2010, 04:32 PM

Jab

10-05-2010, 04:39 PM

<cite>Notsovilepriest@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Jabib@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Notsovilepriest@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>3.2k Everything on 1 debuff, and then still have another over 2k Everything, then finally 1.5k Everything between Debilitiate and Rake. That's enough to nearly Zero out mit of any class not in plate and put a hurt on plate.<img src="http://img826.imageshack.us/img826/3852/eq2000032.jpg" width="1217" height="470" /></blockquote>GL getting all of em off is all i can say. I can count on two hands how many times i have had 3 backattacks chained together in pvp.Also rake is not a miti debuff and as such it dosent help brigands with anything.it is only a dmg spell for us.Only good spell of the 3 is cornered.But that has a low duration that when the lagg is fatcored in u are left with next to no time.If i had the range of a ranger then i would be on easy street.But sadly ppl are not standing still u know =) If u dont play a brig "with the most positional req in game" then u will never understand what im talking about.Now go out and inspect other classes debuffs and then come back m8.Right now u are only telling half the story.Remeber brigs are leaps and bounds ahead of other classes in the debuff department according to u guys.So there better be some weak azz debuffs out there or else u just ended up proving my point even more.I thank u .</blockquote>Brigs aren't nearly AE immune 40%+ in PvP so immune to group taunts, They also don't have any of those debuffs to nearly zero mit, or blackjack to stop someone from turning. On rake, though you don't have any elemental, arcane, or poison procs as a brig?</blockquote>No idea what ur talking about.I get taunted non stop on my brig so the imaginary advantadge u speak of r non existent in the real world"game"Blackjack is close to a 1min cooldown.So that is 52sec of nonstop chasing around trying to just do my thing.I mean i have to go thru hoops and run many "miles" just to do dmg unlike most classes that can stand still or just stand infront of ppl.I have poison but in any grp fight i run MB anyways.Besides it wont give any WOW effect.It helps but it is nothing that will make or break anything.We are talking small % benefits.On paper it may look good.But that is not the case in reality.

Ralpmet

10-05-2010, 04:44 PM

<cite>Notsovilepriest@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Ajjantis wrote:</cite><blockquote>It is NEAR impossible to get all 3 miti debuffs off. I know what im talking about and with all the curing they become useless anyway.</blockquote>Did you know! Because of PvE mechanics of how Dispatch and the other mit debuffs are coded, they are the last of their respective detriments to come of from curing?</blockquote>That's not how cures work. Just stop spreading misinformation. (Your popular one liner lately right?)edit: Cures are a form of beneficial dispell, and functions the same dispell.<div><cite>Ralpmet wrote:</cite><blockquote>im going to use imaginary numbers here, completely out of order, just to show you what I mean;your going against a guy who has 4 dets, and he's going to put them on in an order on you;to keep it simple, we'll use the 1-2-3-4 as the values or level of the spell. We'll say cure cures 4 spell levels in this case.if he goesdet 1det 2det 3det 4and you cure, you cure det 4 first, then 3 and 1, then 2.Now, if instead he goesdet 1det 4det 2det 3and then you cure, you'll cure 3 and 1 first, 2 by itself, then 4.The goal is to find the moment he puts det 4 on and cure it before anything else gets placed.If it works differently than I have observed then please feel free to explain to me how it actually works, because I could be wrong, but this has always worked like this for me as far as I can tell.edit: This actually comes from my experiences on my coercer, not on my inq. It's much easier to see my debuffs being cured on my profitui bar when they suddenly vanish than it is to see on my inq curing people. However, there is no difference in being the one curing or having your stuff cured off the person you see the same order of things. It's how I learned to stack my debuffs to maximize my dps from spells like hostage and spell curse in pvp though, so it's not like a complete shot in the dark.<div></div></blockquote></div>

Darkor

10-05-2010, 04:52 PM

<cite>Crismorn wrote:</cite><blockquote>All I read is that you dont know how to stack detriments</blockquote>All i know is that most people dont know how to dodge back attacks.

MMKA

10-05-2010, 05:16 PM

<cite>Proud_Silence wrote:</cite><blockquote>The longer this game exists, the more blurry the boundaries between classes get. Tanks outhealing priests, priests outdamaging casters and scouts, casters mitigating better then tanks...all these things can happen today. If you, MMKA, don't want scouts to heal the way they do, then you shouldn't be able to dps, nor should tanks, because hey, they're supposed to taunt and take dmg aren't they ?</blockquote>I currently don't see healers tearing it up in pvp with the exception of a couple really talented players. In fact, I see them in perfect balance with other classes of similar gear and talent. I can't count the number of 1v1 fights this expansion that have ended in a stalemate. Even it you spec for dps as a healer, you loose a lot of healing ability - ability that you need to counter a scout or mages stuns, interrruptions and high dps. PvP has come to the point that people in full pvp gear can't kill each other in 1v1. Unfortunately, they are trying to somehow balance pvp by getting rid of one classes main ability and making them less durable at the same time. They think that making scout dps more op than it current is, will make fights shorter. They are right - it will! The result will be scouts being out of balance and healers/tanks/some mages taking it in the ---!I simply don't believe that balance will be achieved by giving one class 200% more dps than the next closest class. They already tried that with the wiz/warlock one shots! If that really is their objective, they should leave cures as they are and increase scout pvp damage by 200% across the board. At least then, healers can continue to play their class as they always have since the beginning of pvp and scouts have the ability again to kill people in under 10 seconds.

Toxicz

10-05-2010, 07:09 PM

<cite>MMKA wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Proud_Silence wrote:</cite><blockquote>The longer this game exists, the more blurry the boundaries between classes get. Tanks outhealing priests, priests outdamaging casters and scouts, casters mitigating better then tanks...all these things can happen today. If you, MMKA, don't want scouts to heal the way they do, then you shouldn't be able to dps, nor should tanks, because hey, they're supposed to taunt and take dmg aren't they ?</blockquote>Unfortunately, they are trying to somehow balance pvp by getting rid of one classes main ability and making them less durable at the same time. They think that making scout dps more op than it current is, will make fights shorter. They are right - it will! The result will be scouts being out of balance and healers/tanks/some mages taking it in the ---!I simply don't believe that balance will be achieved by giving one class 200% more dps than the next closest class. They already tried that with the wiz/warlock one shots! If that really is their objective, they should leave cures as they are and increase scout pvp damage by 200% across the board. At least then, healers can continue to play their class as they always have since the beginning of pvp and scouts have the ability again to kill people in under 10 seconds.</blockquote>This. Nerf toughness, but don't nerf cures!!!

Notsovilepriest

10-06-2010, 12:21 AM

<cite>Gungo wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Notsovilepriest@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>3.2k Everything on 1 debuff, and then still have another over 2k Everything, then finally 1.5k Everything between Debilitiate and Rake. That's enough to nearly Zero out mit of any class not in plate and put a hurt on plate.<img src="http://img826.imageshack.us/img826/3852/eq2000032.jpg" width="1217" height="470" /></blockquote>What people do you roll with that have 6.7 or less mit in a group? Cloth sure but even in leather I am running around SELF buffed with 9800 mit.Not to mention you are talking about at most 13.4 seconds of debuffs every minute IF they all hit. </blockquote>You mean a Brawler in D-Stance, with Bugged Increase Mit % has a lot of mit? As a chain wearer I'm at 6.4k Self buffed. There are some group buffs that up mit, but only 1 priest spell increases mit since they don't stack. It still drops mit to next to nothing.

PeaSy1

10-06-2010, 01:51 AM

<cite>Aiyana@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>Toughness already killed what was fun about contested pvp...you have a raid that is in pve gear and a contesting group in pvp gear, and because they so desperately wanted to separate the two it's more gear based than anything else...another aspect of the game ruined to appease the mediocre.</blockquote>This is why ive said their needs to be a % of toughness on raid gear not the same numbers as pvp gear but enough to make getting engaged in pvp during contested viable chance to defend urself from a group of pvpers.

Darkor

10-06-2010, 03:25 AM

Before they start giving toughness on raid armor they can completely remove it and make it the good old TSO style where crit mitigation worked in pvp and balanced most issues in pvp.

Messia

10-06-2010, 04:47 AM

<cite>EverSkelly wrote:</cite><blockquote>i have read so much nonsense in this thread, so much pointless whining from healers..How the **** are changes to CURING going to make SCOUTS overpowered?Die from scouts DoTs often..?</blockquote>the point is its an archtype breaking nerf..... we don't have the dps to take out people beating on us and our job is to keep up an entire group ... have you seen the number of dots on yourself in most fights? .. You are gimping the main job of a healer. AS I said .. you take away heals from any class but a healer and all the heal procing crap, and nerf mental breech poisons into oblivion and while you are at it reduce the number of dots a scout can stack on you and i'll accept the nerf and never mention it again. I do believe you can quit the name calling with who is crying about their nerf because i can recall some nerfs to other classes that were minor in comparison having a 20 page thread in a matter of two days.

Messia

10-06-2010, 04:48 AM

<cite>Toxicz@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>EverSkelly wrote:</cite><blockquote>i have read so much nonsense in this thread, so much pointless whining from healers..How the **** are changes to CURING going to make SCOUTS overpowered?Die from scouts DoTs often..?</blockquote>Because there nerfing toughness by almost/more than half? and with how mitagtion de-buffs will stack without the cues to get them off of people, scouts will be hitting for 1500-2000 autos? and rangers in the 4-5k?/sigh</blockquote>precisely

Messia

10-06-2010, 04:56 AM

Faeward

10-06-2010, 04:56 AM

<cite>Ajjantis wrote:</cite><blockquote>Before they start giving toughness on raid armor they can completely remove it and make it the good old TSO style where crit mitigation worked in pvp and balanced most issues in pvp.</blockquote>This.Why did they move away from that anyway? It worked really well.

Messia

10-06-2010, 05:07 AM

<cite>Ajjantis wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Messia@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Ajjantis wrote:</cite><blockquote>Ive done some x2 and gear matches yesterday and im shocked right now. In the x2 a warden came into our base and got the flag and walked away like nothing happend. Truth is there was a handfull of dps trying to burn him and could not stop him at all. Yeah he went into red a few times but the final burn was not possible. Right now some healers are simply unkillable. Whether its the toughness mechanic or the imba cure of the inqui mythical i cant tell. But im sick being unable to burn certain healer with 4+ people unloading everything on him. The only reason a healer should stay alive with so many dps trying to kill him is when he has a decent tank stopping us. Im happy to see the toughnes change coming in and right now i wouldnt even mind a little cure nerf as in 1 vs 1 situation curing is destroying any dps that some classes bring (necros, coercers etc.)</blockquote>and here in lies the problem .. BG'S ARE NOT PVP ... WHY ARE PLAYERS FROM NON PVP SERVERS HAVING A SAY IN WHAT THE HELL HAPPENS IN WORLD PVP ... sorry but we never asked you to implement some moronic instance pvp and now we pay the price yet again.... when will you realize you can't give every carebear on the entire game everythign they want?? Quit catering to people who are crying about everything ... why should a non PVP server have ever gotten the same gear the PVP server did, just because they said we want it. Roll a tune on the pvp server and you can have it. People are being punished for playing their classes well because someone decided not being able to kill someone in 10 seconds is a crime ..... i'm not sure which is worse the constant crying about someone being too hard to kill or a Developer who is supose to have the best interest of the PVPers in mind catering to part time pvpers who consider BGs pvp. Ask your pvp servers what they think of the Battlegrounds .... 90 percent of them will tell you to remove them they are a waste of cyberspace. For those who are on the pvp server who love bg's my apologies you are in the minority.Quit attempting to "balance" classes so everyone is equal .. this is an MMO, we are supose to be interacting and grouping with our fellow faction members because grouping brings benefits....there is absolutely no reason to continue to glorify one class or archetype. When you ask for input on PVP I believe its the pvp server whose opinion should matter not the players who thing a BG is pvp.</blockquote>First take a deep breath, a very deep one. Then take a look at my signature and realize that all of these chars are on nagafen. Then understand that my Warden who i have not played in AGES has probably more pvp kills than your healer. Then understand that whatever you tried to tell me in your post makes no sense. When a warden is unkillable in a BG what makes you think it is different in open pvp? I gave you reasons why the combination of toughness, curing and heal abilities are OP. I used BGs as an example. I didnt promote BG over open pvp or anything. I was simply making a point which can be used in open pvp aswell. When a warden eats the dps of several scouts how can this be good? A single scout cannot kill a warden allready which is not fair because i think every class should have a chance. But right now even 2-3 scouts cannot kill a warden, how on earth do you justify that? The only reason a healer should survive is when he has a decent tank doing his job. Not because the broken toughness stat makes it impossible to kill because he will heal the poor dmg he is receiving and cures the few debuffs he receives. I welcome this change and do hope that it will balance some issues that are completely broken for now. If you people believe that heals wont be needed anymore then go delete them. Im gonna make sure to bring my healer out full time again and show you what the difference will be having a healer combined with a decent tank or two.</blockquote>1st of all .. i've never heard of any of your toons ... 2nd of all ... regardless of wether you are on nagafen or not .. using BGs to argue pvp rule sets is rediculous, because a BG is a controled environment. 3rd ... congrats on your "healer" having more kills than my warden who has been retired for 2 years. 2 or 3 scouts not being able to kill a warden means 2 or three scouts who are beating on said warden should really learn their class ... it is entirely possible to drain a wardens power with 3 scouts. OF COURSE if they are crappy scouts which ALOT of them are ... they wouldn't be able to touch a well geared warden ... which they shouldnt' be able to, if you earned the gear by putting in the work .. then why shouldn't you be incredibly hard to kill, you are not impossible to kill you are just a tough kill. The rediculous cure nerf is going to allow any scout worth their weight in copper to be able to aniahlate a healer before their cure is available to them a second time, that sir is what is not justified.

Urgol

10-06-2010, 10:05 AM

Am I the only one who sees (FINALLY!) a challenge to healers here? Looks like the right time to man up, farm some curing items, learn what and when to cure, get some cc-immunity gear..playing a pvp healer used to be boring as hell. And it used to be inquisitor, or two inquisitors per group if one can not hold.

Messia

10-06-2010, 12:56 PM

<cite>Urgol wrote:</cite><blockquote>Am I the only one who sees (FINALLY!) a challenge to healers here? Looks like the right time to man up, farm some curing items, learn what and when to cure, get some cc-immunity gear..playing a pvp healer used to be boring as hell. And it used to be inquisitor, or two inquisitors per group if one can not hold.</blockquote>yes apparently you are..... not sure where you have been but i'm pretty challenged as it is keeping up a group not solo but with two healers usually, but then again its a x10 against 2 or 3 groups half the time. I'm not a crappy healer either, I think what the problem is, is that scouts actually for once in this game have somewhat of a challenge because they can't run around in groups of two or three and decimate an entire groups.....you know what that is ..... ITS CALLED BALANCE! Yeah i'll agree with removing toughness there was nothing wrong with a crit mit modifier on the armor that was slightly less than raid gear, thus making those who put the time in to raid also viable in pvp when they chose to pvp occasionally, without having to get another set of gear.

Notsovilepriest

10-06-2010, 04:27 PM

PeaSy1

10-06-2010, 05:06 PM

Lol at what point did healers become hard to play?

Notsovilepriest

10-06-2010, 05:11 PM

<cite>Dudoes@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>Lol at what point did healers become hard to play?</blockquote>You seemed to make it look hard

MMKA

10-06-2010, 05:48 PM

<cite>Dudoes@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>Lol at what point did healers become hard to play?</blockquote>Playing vs. playing well are 2 completely different things. Anyone can go out without a care in the world, target someone and mash a few buttons. That is why there are so many scouts and tanks.At least with the upcoming nerf, healers have one less thing to worry about. Their only responsiblity will be to heal themselves and stay alive and long as possible while the rest of their group tries to figure out how to cure themselves of their 50000 dots!

Messia

10-07-2010, 12:27 AM

<cite>Doommaster@Vox wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Dudoes@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>Lol at what point did healers become hard to play?</blockquote>Playing vs. playing well are 2 completely different things. Anyone can go out without a care in the world, target someone and mash a few buttons. That is why there are so many scouts and tanks.At least with the upcoming nerf, healers have one less thing to worry about. Their only responsiblity will be to heal themselves and stay alive and long as possible while the rest of their group tries to figure out how to cure themselves of their 50000 dots! </blockquote>I'm sorry ... part of staying alive is being able to cure yourself ... all i have to say is ROFLMFAO! I mean i'm giving it a week ... and i'm betting within one week 85 percent of healers will be rolling up one of their alts as their main and NO ONE will have healers for not only pvp but for instances either. This is by far the WORST decision ever .. and obviously some dev who plays a scout came up to a healer and decided when he didn't drop in 10 seconds that they needed to nerf the cures, reduce healing power of an inquisitor, give themselves flurry on their secondary, and ranged weapons, and give assassins a rediculous heal. REALLY?I know your post was sarcastic and definately funny ... i can already hear my group screaming in vent to cure them/heal me/ bla bla bla ... while i'm interrupted a gazillion times because i can't cure crap off me LOL Thank you SOE for ruining PVP again ... it never seems to amaze me how truly terrible you are at making decisions on what is or isn't broken and what classes need help and which ones need toned down. I'm just curious whats next ..... in combat evac for tanks maybe? or how about a ranger bow that has doom judgement on it ... speaking of doomjudgement since you are screwing with my curing ability can you please give me doomjudgement lol.

Darkor

10-07-2010, 03:47 AM

<cite>Messia@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Doommaster@Vox wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Dudoes@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>Lol at what point did healers become hard to play?</blockquote>Playing vs. playing well are 2 completely different things. Anyone can go out without a care in the world, target someone and mash a few buttons. That is why there are so many scouts and tanks.At least with the upcoming nerf, healers have one less thing to worry about. Their only responsiblity will be to heal themselves and stay alive and long as possible while the rest of their group tries to figure out how to cure themselves of their 50000 dots! </blockquote>I'm sorry ... part of staying alive is being able to cure yourself ... all i have to say is ROFLMFAO! I mean i'm giving it a week ... and i'm betting within one week 85 percent of healers will be rolling up one of their alts as their main and NO ONE will have healers for not only pvp but for instances either. This is by far the WORST decision ever .. and obviously some dev who plays a scout came up to a healer and decided when he didn't drop in 10 seconds that they needed to nerf the cures, reduce healing power of an inquisitor, give themselves flurry on their secondary, and ranged weapons, and give assassins a rediculous heal. REALLY?I know your post was sarcastic and definately funny ... i can already hear my group screaming in vent to cure them/heal me/ bla bla bla ... while i'm interrupted a gazillion times because i can't cure crap off me LOL Thank you SOE for ruining PVP again ... it never seems to amaze me how truly terrible you are at making decisions on what is or isn't broken and what classes need help and which ones need toned down. I'm just curious whats next ..... in combat evac for tanks maybe? or how about a ranger bow that has doom judgement on it ... speaking of doomjudgement since you are screwing with my curing ability can you please give me doomjudgement lol.</blockquote>Go for it, i'll fill that nice new hole then.

nastymatt

10-07-2010, 04:41 AM

Amazingly there is a thread going on in BG's about how wardens are God mode and only die occassionally to one class if it is super geared and well played. Yet here we have "the world is falling in and all healers will quit because they are nerfing my cures".Healers won't quit that is fact. Healers have had it bad in the past yet there were tons of them (I was one of them). No one can say for sure how much the nerf will actually do (wardens for example can pretty well spec up where they don't have to cure themselves) but at the moment it is not good for pvp when a group can stay alive for ages tanking an entire wf.Pvp needs changes. Embrace them <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Ralpmet

10-07-2010, 05:30 AM

<cite>nastymatt wrote:</cite><blockquote>Amazingly there is a thread going on in BG's about how wardens are God mode and only die occassionally to one class if it is super geared and well played. Yet here we have "the world is falling in and all healers will quit because they are nerfing my cures".Healers won't quit that is fact. Healers have had it bad in the past yet there were tons of them (I was one of them). No one can say for sure how much the nerf will actually do (wardens for example can pretty well spec up where they don't have to cure themselves) but at the moment it is not good for pvp when a group can stay alive for ages tanking an entire wf.Pvp needs changes. Embrace them <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" /></blockquote>As an 89 INQ, last expac and this expac (in 80-89 bgs, and some {not alot} of level 90 pvp experience) I've healed without curing using group cures, just single target ones. And let me tell you, it's not fun being yelled at by someone who's got an assassin stifle on them or a mez when your cure already takes so long to recast. I have little issue healing through it because I don't get interupted, stifled, mezzed (i am smart enough to cure these effects and am immune to interupts/stifles as long as i sit still) but for a third of the healing arch-type this could very well be game breaking.As someone who hasn't leveled a shaman past 15 because of the incredible lengths of time it takes to cast the group ward in PvP (you could very well be dead before you even get it off.) it's hard enough for them to keep their group up, take away the ability to cure their group (essentially) and they're pretty well screwed.On the flip side, if they're in a 2 healer group they'll still shine beyond imagination on how well they can keep people up. I doubt this change will make healers quit, it'll just increase the number of healers per group-- lowering dps even further, and we'll be back to square one, or we'll be at a point where wardens healing through without curing will keep 4 dps classes and a sk/pally/zerker up who will nearly instantly burn down individual targets left and right.

Darkor

10-07-2010, 06:23 AM

<cite>Ralpmet wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>nastymatt wrote:</cite><blockquote>Amazingly there is a thread going on in BG's about how wardens are God mode and only die occassionally to one class if it is super geared and well played. Yet here we have "the world is falling in and all healers will quit because they are nerfing my cures".Healers won't quit that is fact. Healers have had it bad in the past yet there were tons of them (I was one of them). No one can say for sure how much the nerf will actually do (wardens for example can pretty well spec up where they don't have to cure themselves) but at the moment it is not good for pvp when a group can stay alive for ages tanking an entire wf.Pvp needs changes. Embrace them <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" /></blockquote>And let me tell you, it's not fun being yelled at by someone who's got an assassin stifle on them or a mez when your cure already takes so long to recast. .</blockquote>/gasp, thats exactly why the cure nerf has to come in. A stifle or other CC effect is important again. What makes you guys think that you have the right to immeaditly cure whatever CC effects you? You do know that there is an assassin on the other side who stifled you for a reason and he hopes to finally be able to burn you. Or how does the chanter feel when his well placed mezz gets cured 1 second later? This is exactly why the nerf is good. It will balance some things that havent worked for quite some time. Now the mez/stifle/taunt/stun might help again. Guys there are always 2 sides and you guys argue way to 1 sided imho.

MMKA

10-07-2010, 11:15 AM

<cite>Ajjantis wrote:</cite><blockquote>/gasp, thats exactly why the cure nerf has to come in. A stifle or other CC effect is important again. What makes you guys think that you have the right to immeaditly cure whatever CC effects you? You do know that there is an assassin on the other side who stifled you for a reason and he hopes to finally be able to burn you. Or how does the chanter feel when his well placed mezz gets cured 1 second later? This is exactly why the nerf is good. It will balance some things that havent worked for quite some time. Now the mez/stifle/taunt/stun might help again. Guys there are always 2 sides and you guys argue way to 1 sided imho.</blockquote>That is exactly the reason there are healers. In a group fight, any class that is stunned/stiled/mezzed without a cure would be burned by scouts and mages before it wears off. Especially when the healer is stacked with dots and busy trying to cure himself with a 3 second reuse single target cure. While burning down people in a few seconds may be fun for scouts, it's not fun to be the victim and have absolutely no chance. Many times the group cure is a healers (or anyone in their group's) main defense against the high dps classes.I understand that you and most others who play a scout or mage want to be able to burn entire groups down in a few seconds but surely you can see that destroying an entire classes main ability is not a balanced way to achieve that goal.If they want to nerf healers, then they should nerf the single target cure/heals because most healers are perma-taunted anyway. At least then, the entire group won't be punished because a healer knows how to gear himself and play his class. Perhaps they could even help keep their healer alive, rather than be permanently stunned or mezzed for the entire fight.

Messia

10-07-2010, 11:29 AM

<cite>Ajjantis wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Ralpmet wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>nastymatt wrote:</cite><blockquote>Amazingly there is a thread going on in BG's about how wardens are God mode and only die occassionally to one class if it is super geared and well played. Yet here we have "the world is falling in and all healers will quit because they are nerfing my cures".Healers won't quit that is fact. Healers have had it bad in the past yet there were tons of them (I was one of them). No one can say for sure how much the nerf will actually do (wardens for example can pretty well spec up where they don't have to cure themselves) but at the moment it is not good for pvp when a group can stay alive for ages tanking an entire wf.Pvp needs changes. Embrace them <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" /></blockquote>And let me tell you, it's not fun being yelled at by someone who's got an assassin stifle on them or a mez when your cure already takes so long to recast. .</blockquote>/gasp, thats exactly why the cure nerf has to come in. A stifle or other CC effect is important again. What makes you guys think that you have the right to immeaditly cure whatever CC effects you? You do know that there is an assassin on the other side who stifled you for a reason and he hopes to finally be able to burn you. Or how does the chanter feel when his well placed mezz gets cured 1 second later? This is exactly why the nerf is good. It will balance some things that havent worked for quite some time. Now the mez/stifle/taunt/stun might help again. Guys there are always 2 sides and you guys argue way to 1 sided imho.</blockquote>Wow another scout angry about not being able to kill a well geared healer. It just seems awefully funny that an entire archtype has to get nerfed because a few players know their class. If we have a well stacked group we have no problem mowing over 2 or 3 groups of average players .. this includes healers, scouts, or whoever is in the way. In other fights we can stay alive against great players who obviously aren't targeting the right people to burn them down ... if scouts would learn to get on the same target, it is very possible to kill a group easily or even two groups if you are on your A game. And if the scouts in this game can't figure out how to use their poisons correctly, and drain a healers of their power to take out a group well then REROLL YOUR CLASS. Why should i be punished for other people not learning their class. You get two rangers on me and i'm toast .. i can't cure anything fast enough to get to either one ... ITS POSSIBLE but its called learning tactics .. I mean crying about how a good healer can do their job is really the pot calling the kettle black for any scout worth their weight in this game.

Ralpmet

10-07-2010, 11:30 AM

<cite>Ajjantis wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Ralpmet wrote:</cite><blockquote>And let me tell you, it's not fun being yelled at by someone who's got an assassin stifle on them or a mez when your cure already takes so long to recast. .</blockquote>/gasp, thats exactly why the cure nerf has to come in. A stifle or other CC effect is important again. What makes you guys think that you have the right to immeaditly cure whatever CC effects you? You do know that there is an assassin on the other side who stifled you for a reason and he hopes to finally be able to burn you. Or how does the chanter feel when his well placed mezz gets cured 1 second later? This is exactly why the nerf is good. It will balance some things that havent worked for quite some time. Now the mez/stifle/taunt/stun might help again. Guys there are always 2 sides and you guys argue way to 1 sided imho.</blockquote>I'll tell you what, the day that I can shout at a tank for failing to taunt, or shout at a mage for not curing my arcane, or shout at a scout for not either killing the other priest/scouts/mages fast enough is the day that what you've said becomes a legitimate argument.Fact of the matter is people still expect healers to heal, and curing is a part of that job description. Like I said, which you so eloquently left out, I have been curing people with single target for a very long time and won't have much issue continuing on doing so, but it still screws over 33% of priests.

Messia

10-07-2010, 11:36 AM

<cite>Doommaster@Vox wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Ajjantis wrote:</cite><blockquote>/gasp, thats exactly why the cure nerf has to come in. A stifle or other CC effect is important again. What makes you guys think that you have the right to immeaditly cure whatever CC effects you? You do know that there is an assassin on the other side who stifled you for a reason and he hopes to finally be able to burn you. Or how does the chanter feel when his well placed mezz gets cured 1 second later? This is exactly why the nerf is good. It will balance some things that havent worked for quite some time. Now the mez/stifle/taunt/stun might help again. Guys there are always 2 sides and you guys argue way to 1 sided imho.</blockquote>That is exactly the reason there are healers. In a group fight, any class that is stunned/stiled/mezzed without a cure would be burned by scouts and mages before it wears off. Especially when the healer is stacked with dots and busy trying to cure himself with a 3 second reuse single target cure. While burning down people in a few seconds may be fun for scouts, it's not fun to be the victim and have absolutely no chance. Many times the group cure is a healers (or anyone in their group's) main defense against the high dps classes.I understand that you and most others who play a scout or mage want to be able to burn entire groups down in a few seconds but surely you can see that destroying an entire classes main ability is not a balanced way to achieve that goal.If they want to nerf healers, then they should nerf the single target cure/heals because most healers are perma-taunted anyway. At least then, the entire group won't be punished because a healer knows how to gear himself and play his class. Perhaps they could even help keep their healer alive, rather than be permanently stunned or mezzed for the entire fight.</blockquote>he should be more concerned about the scouts, and monk's who can cure their mezz than a healer ... because when they cure it he's dead ...... and btw i can cure a control effect once but then if it lands on me again .. its there for the duration UNLESS a mage or another healer takes the dot off .... OMG they are doing their job ..... NERF THEM!~!But then again you as a scout really wouldnt' want them to nerf a dps classes ability to break mezz, because then you couldn't get to them in time to kill them right?

Messia

10-07-2010, 11:48 AM

Ironic how anytime a discussion that gets heated that involves a change people disagree with by SOE .. the threads get locked a few days before the change goes live ... so expect this one to get locked to for no reason other than to try and sweep it under the rug and hope people will forget it. Do you ever ask yourselves at SOE why your subscriptions continue to fall every time you start making changes that most of the population disagrees with? I'm just wondering if you have put 2 and 2 together yet? because so far this is the 3rd game i've seen you pretty much pull apart limb for limb, despite what the paying customer repeatedly tells you.

MMKA

10-07-2010, 01:31 PM

Well, at this point I have two options:1. Respec and regear my inquisitor for dps, pvp only in solo situations (just let my group die in BG) and hope to burn stun/mez/root classes before they get me.2. Stop playing in healer and play a scout.After playing a lot of other classes, I really enjoyed playing a healer the past few years. The challenge is the only thing that has kept me playing this game for so long. Now I feel like SOE has taken all my time learning to play the class and thrown it out the window. After this nerf, I will probably just move on in a couple months in hopes of finding a game with a little more balance.

Messia

10-07-2010, 02:01 PM

<cite>Doommaster@Vox wrote:</cite><blockquote>Well, at this point I have two options:1. Respec and regear my inquisitor for dps, pvp only in solo situations (just let my group die in BG) and hope to burn stun/mez/root classes before they get me.2. Stop playing in healer and play a scout.After playing a lot of other classes, I really enjoyed playing a healer the past few years. The challenge is the only thing that has kept me playing this game for so long. Now I feel like SOE has taken all my time learning to play the class and thrown it out the window. After this nerf, I will probably just move on in a couple months in hopes of finding a game with a little more balance.</blockquote>UNFORTUNATELY ... i think alot of the players in this game are going to have the same final outcome as you ... and we are talking people who have played the game for 5 or 6 years. So could the developers please tell me what class you intend to play in the next expansion so that we may have a heads up as to what is going to be OP in the next expansion?? LOL j/k i'd never play an assassin.

Proud_Silence

10-07-2010, 02:59 PM

Too much panic before actually seeing the new systems turns out on live servers.We shouldn't forget that everyone will have more dots/CC effects etc on themselves.So yeah, a healer who gets attacked by several people will have a harder time surviving, and that's where we return to where tactics actually matter. Your tank mustn't just mash random buttons and some AE taunts now and then, now he has to pay attention on who in his grp is in need of his help.Right now, there's a lot of complaining about how fights last forever, priests waving their [Removed for Content] about how they don't fear any CC, and this change attempts to adress this issue from a refreshing point of view. There won't be any endless fights anymore, is that such a bad thing ?i try to keep in mind that while i am not looking forward to getting stun locked and burned down without my healer being able to do anything about it, and i know it will happen - I am on the other side looking forward to being able to have my dots and CC effects actually do something in pvp.

Crismorn

10-07-2010, 03:16 PM

No panic, just less healers playing bg's once this goes into effect which is good for me.I'm going to wait for this nerf to happen and then explain why this change will hit everyone and should be reverted, not just because their are less healers playing, but first I want to walk over all wardens with ease once again.

MMKA

10-07-2010, 03:44 PM

<cite>Proud_Silence wrote:</cite><blockquote>So yeah, a healer who gets attacked by several people will have a harder time surviving, and that's where we return to where tactics actually matter. Your tank mustn't just mash random buttons and some AE taunts now and then, now he has to pay attention on who in his grp is in need of his help.</blockquote>What people don't seem to understand is that except for the toughness nerf, healers will be just as hard to kill as they always were. With the possible exeception of inquisitors, this change will not effect the survivability of the healer at all.Tanks, on the other hand won't be doing anything execpt trying to figure out how to get the stuns/stifles/mezzes off themselves using a potion that is basically worthless because of the recast time! I know it won't happen but I would really appreciate a response on this subject from SOE as to the exact reasons why this is being put into effect and what they intend to accomplish from it. Maybe I'm just not seeing it from their point of view.

PeaSy1

10-07-2010, 03:49 PM

lol not gonna lie the overreaction to this change is quite funny people are taking this change as if reuse increases arent gonna affect the 40 second base timer.... so now instead of casting just one of my group cures every 13-15 seconds ull have to cast the other one!! sounds very ruff times..... and this doesnt account the amount of other ways to cure that are easily obtainable and only require you to understand u cant be lazy anymore and actually use stuff like pots and various other clickies available to everybody....

Neskonlith

10-07-2010, 03:56 PM

<cite>Dudoes@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>people are taking this change as if reuse increases arent gonna affect the 40 second base timer.... so now instead of casting just one of my group cures every 13-15 seconds ull have to cast the other one!!</blockquote>Overall, will this change make it easier to kill a healer when they are solo, as opposed to when they are in a group?

PeaSy1

10-07-2010, 04:13 PM

<cite>Neskonlith wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Dudoes@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>people are taking this change as if reuse increases arent gonna affect the 40 second base timer.... so now instead of casting just one of my group cures every 13-15 seconds ull have to cast the other one!!</blockquote>Overall, will this change make it easier to kill a healer when they are solo, as opposed to when they are in a group?</blockquote>If the healer was just relying on group cures when solo then yes those specific terrible healers are gonna die easier.....but a good healer is still gonna be pretty tough to kill solo BUT more doable than before

Crismorn

10-07-2010, 04:33 PM

Yeah like 1-5 healers are going to benefit from this change, should be good times for those 1-5 people.

Sprin

10-07-2010, 05:02 PM

<cite>Doommaster@Vox wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Proud_Silence wrote:</cite><blockquote>So yeah, a healer who gets attacked by several people will have a harder time surviving, and that's where we return to where tactics actually matter. Your tank mustn't just mash random buttons and some AE taunts now and then, now he has to pay attention on who in his grp is in need of his help.</blockquote>What people don't seem to understand is that except for the toughness nerf, healers will be just as hard to kill as they always were. With the possible exeception of inquisitors, this change will not effect the survivability of the healer at all.Tanks, on the other hand won't be doing anything execpt trying to figure out how to get the stuns/stifles/mezzes off themselves using a potion that is basically worthless because of the recast time! I know it won't happen but I would really appreciate a response on this subject from SOE as to the exact reasons why this is being put into effect and what they intend to accomplish from it. Maybe I'm just not seeing it from their point of view.</blockquote>Uhh, you dont play a healer do you? The #1 target of any and ALL people attacking the group is the healer... that means the healer has the most detrimentals on them at any given time... regardless of how good your tank is, people specifically (if they are worth a hill of beans) will have target macros for the healer in the group, if it is a long fight.... this still means that 3 seconds after that tank taunts the dps, they are right back on the healer, stacking dots and debuffs... group cures are sometimes only curing stuff off the tank, and sometimes only off the healer himself... and with certain AA's this is a good way to recover from low health, as Templar / Warden / Mystic's get heals / wards with each cure... not to mention you just cured yourself from having 0 mitigation back up to full, allowing you to keep fighting and not melt when that assassinate comes to get you...And I dont know if you have ever noticed, but self single target cure always seems to cure the most insignificant things and, if you have ever been attacked by certain classes and say, for example, a Brig / Swash... the first thing they ever cast on a healer is Torporous Strike (which greatly reduces your casting speed, IE: ~41%) ... of course after that comes about 20 other debufs and dots... you go to single target cure yourself and a bunch of detrimentals come off EXCEPT for torporous... by the time your single target is up again, that rogue has already loaded you with all new detrimentals (cept torporous is on a CAPPED reuse of 15 seconds) so they havn't put that back on you yet... you cast single cure again, and NOPE, torporous wasn't cured again, even though it was the first thing ever to be put on you, and you cant get it to cure no matter what...Its like that when a plethora of spells... SK's mana sieve, fettering poisons, etc etc etc... these are things I have notices fighting solo alot on my healer... the spells that are the most detrimental to you, seem to never get cured if other things have been stacked on before AND after you use single target cure...Sometimes the only way to cure those things off is with group cure... and if you are solo, you being able to cast group cure every 40 seconds is just insane...SO you see, just because you think you know things, doesnt mean you do... if you have played a healer for any length of time you see mechanics like the one I have listed and you know how much more of a moronic nerf this is then other nerfs... There are healers I have seen on the PVP field who have NEVER, NOT ONCE been solo or even in small groups... they only go out with a stacked group with at least 2 types of tanks and another type of healer... people like that wont notice much difference... but those who solo heal groups, go out in small groups, or solo, will be a HUGE difference

Darkor

10-07-2010, 05:30 PM

Some people sound like they got their cures remoed alltogether lol. You still can singletarget and grp cure. Just not spam it anymore.

Crismorn

10-07-2010, 05:43 PM

<cite>Ajjantis wrote:</cite><blockquote>Some people sound like they got their cures remoed alltogether lol. You still can singletarget and grp cure. Just not spam it anymore.</blockquote>You obviously have no idea what you are QQing about.Lets increase the base re-use on 2 of your CA's and then lets make it so if you dont use those CA's in a timely fashion that you are stun/stifle/daze/fear locked.Oh wait it would not matter to you since your brain can barely handle pressing the CA that isnt grey yet.This change is going to be huge for the vast majority of healers, either healers will have to change how they play this game "which would be not using group cure until it will help them, which will cause massive QQ from everyone in their group" or they can just stop playing that toon.Dont think this is going to be a huge change? Chances are you dont even know whats been happening around you the entire time you have been playing this game, but dont worry you are not a minority, the people who do know whats happening around them are the actual minority

MMKA

10-07-2010, 06:21 PM

<cite>Dudoes@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>lol not gonna lie the overreaction to this change is quite funny people are taking this change as if reuse increases arent gonna affect the 40 second base timer.... so now instead of casting just one of my group cures every 13-15 seconds ull have to cast the other one!! sounds very ruff times..... and this doesnt account the amount of other ways to cure that are easily obtainable and only require you to understand u cant be lazy anymore and actually use stuff like pots and various other clickies available to everybody....</blockquote>My reuse in pvp gear equates to 32-34 second recast - more than double where it is now! I'm probably just a bad healer but I can't begin to keep a group cured with 2 group and a single target cure when we are fighting anyone halfway decent. Maybe SOE is holding back some 50% reuse healer gear that they will make available with this update?btw: Pots and other pvp clickies have a much longer recast yet and only remove certain types of dets.It would be interesting to hear how badly people would cry if they more than doubled the CA reuse timers or reduced the poison trigger chance by over half for scouts!

Natthan

10-07-2010, 06:42 PM

<cite>Ajjantis wrote:</cite><blockquote>Some people sound like they got their cures remoed alltogether lol. You still can singletarget and grp cure. Just not spam it anymore.</blockquote>Curing isn't and has never been the problem, The problems are toughness, the blanket CC nerf, which should be undone, Minus charm. Do you not think it's wrong how much a scout can heal anymore on their own? Or even fighters post nerf? It's dumb how much they can. Curing has never been the issue at hand.

Charmnevac

10-07-2010, 06:47 PM

My level 40healer should be able to cure level 48 detriments. When a lvl 48 brig comes on me and Tswipe/strikes me, im screwed with the constant knockbacks when i cant cure anything at all. Get this fixed plz, thx

Cloakentuna

10-07-2010, 11:21 PM

Extra'Good

Darkor

10-08-2010, 03:42 AM

<cite>EnvoyofBCD wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Ajjantis wrote:</cite><blockquote>Some people sound like they got their cures remoed alltogether lol. You still can singletarget and grp cure. Just not spam it anymore.</blockquote>Curing isn't and has never been the problem, The problems are toughness, the blanket CC nerf, which should be undone, Minus charm. Do you not think it's wrong how much a scout can heal anymore on their own? Or even fighters post nerf? It's dumb how much they can. Curing has never been the issue at hand.</blockquote>If you want to have healpower removed from scouts then you need to remove DPSpower from tanks and healer aswell. Right now healers and tanks can a) DPS like mad, b) tank like mad and c) heal like mad. In other words the initial roles are spread throu all classes. When i see a zerker topping the heal parse when we attack him 3 vs 1 i understand that something is broken. When i see a healer eating the dps from a full grp and does not die i understand that something is broken. When i see a meleeing healer hit me for 3k upwards and dps me down before i even hit throu his wards/reactives i understand that something is broken. You dont need to tell me, that the reason behind all this is toughness and the CC nerfs. I do know it allready. But as long as Olihin does not remove this whole toughness bullcrap i will take whatever is needed. Ive had a gear match the other day with 2 healers on my grp and no healer in other grp, they had 4 tanks (mostly sks and berserker). We almost lost the match because it was impossible to down the tank who managed to get the relic 2-3 times because we werent quick enough. Back in kunark cures were allready nerfed to have a slightly longer recast timer because curing is way too powerfull. Now with all these grp cures and single target cures and items that can cure and extra procs that cure its out of hand. If you want to remove the small healing scouts get you will have to remove 80% of the dps that healers do and 50 % of the dps tanks can do so we all can go back to our primary roles. But untill a healer and tank can play every frigging role in this came i'll be trying to heal as good as i can.

Darkor

10-08-2010, 03:54 AM

Found this in the other thread, its kinda silly tbh:<img src="http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v247/Sesari/sinaya-1.jpg" />This is what real healers can do. Stop complaining allready, healers are the strongest class in the game right now. I know what i can do with my warden, if you cant the problem probably is on your side.

Notsovilepriest

10-08-2010, 10:18 AM

You mean a healer can DPS in a drawn out Smugglers, when both teams do next to no damage as a whole, and the healer barely heals? Fact of the matter is 1 good DPS you are basically stuck chain healing without DPS(Unless you are a druid with infusion), let alone 2+.

MMKA

10-08-2010, 12:36 PM

<cite>Ajjantis wrote:</cite><blockquote>When i see a zerker topping the heal parse when we attack him 3 vs 1 i understand that something is broken. When i see a healer eating the dps from a full grp and does not die i understand that something is broken. When i see a meleeing healer hit me for 3k upwards and dps me down before i even hit throu his wards/reactives i understand that something is broken. If you want to remove the small healing scouts get you will have to remove 80% of the dps that healers do and 50 % of the dps tanks can do so we all can go back to our primary roles. But untill a healer and tank can play every frigging role in this came i'll be trying to heal as good as i can.</blockquote>You are not talking about evenly geared people. I don't know of any healer class that can land a 3K hit on another fully geared player - especially in heal spec. I have, however, been hit for over 10K on a regular basis by scouts and mages.Fact is that if 3 fullly geared scouts attack a similarly geared zerker, he will go down in a matter of seconds.As far as healers - I have never seen any healers stand up very long to a stacked group of fully geared players. Normally all it takes to kill a healer is 3 well geared scouts.See the pattern here - due to toughness, the only class that can kill anything are scouts. Sure tanks and healers may be able to stay alive for a long time but in most cases they can't kill anyone who is equally geared and knows how to play their class.

Darkor

10-08-2010, 02:19 PM

<cite>Doommaster@Vox wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Ajjantis wrote:</cite><blockquote>When i see a zerker topping the heal parse when we attack him 3 vs 1 i understand that something is broken. When i see a healer eating the dps from a full grp and does not die i understand that something is broken. When i see a meleeing healer hit me for 3k upwards and dps me down before i even hit throu his wards/reactives i understand that something is broken. If you want to remove the small healing scouts get you will have to remove 80% of the dps that healers do and 50 % of the dps tanks can do so we all can go back to our primary roles. But untill a healer and tank can play every frigging role in this came i'll be trying to heal as good as i can.</blockquote>You are not talking about evenly geared people. I don't know of any healer class that can land a 3K hit on another fully geared player - especially in heal spec. I have, however, been hit for over 10K on a regular basis by scouts and mages.Fact is that if 3 fullly geared scouts attack a similarly geared zerker, he will go down in a matter of seconds.As far as healers - I have never seen any healers stand up very long to a stacked group of fully geared players. Normally all it takes to kill a healer is 3 well geared scouts.See the pattern here - due to toughness, the only class that can kill anything are scouts. Sure tanks and healers may be able to stay alive for a long time but in most cases they can't kill anyone who is equally geared and knows how to play their class.</blockquote>Evenly geared people? What do you actually need to pvp nowdays? A Full toughness set and a good 2hander. Thats all you need.

Crismorn

10-08-2010, 03:35 PM

<cite>Ajjantis wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Doommaster@Vox wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Ajjantis wrote:</cite><blockquote>When i see a zerker topping the heal parse when we attack him 3 vs 1 i understand that something is broken. When i see a healer eating the dps from a full grp and does not die i understand that something is broken. When i see a meleeing healer hit me for 3k upwards and dps me down before i even hit throu his wards/reactives i understand that something is broken. If you want to remove the small healing scouts get you will have to remove 80% of the dps that healers do and 50 % of the dps tanks can do so we all can go back to our primary roles. But untill a healer and tank can play every frigging role in this came i'll be trying to heal as good as i can.</blockquote>You are not talking about evenly geared people. I don't know of any healer class that can land a 3K hit on another fully geared player - especially in heal spec. I have, however, been hit for over 10K on a regular basis by scouts and mages.Fact is that if 3 fullly geared scouts attack a similarly geared zerker, he will go down in a matter of seconds.As far as healers - I have never seen any healers stand up very long to a stacked group of fully geared players. Normally all it takes to kill a healer is 3 well geared scouts.See the pattern here - due to toughness, the only class that can kill anything are scouts. Sure tanks and healers may be able to stay alive for a long time but in most cases they can't kill anyone who is equally geared and knows how to play their class.</blockquote>Evenly geared people? What do you actually need to pvp nowdays? A Full toughness set and a good 2hander. Thats all you need.</blockquote>I know its difficult for you to imagine someone having to put more effort into this game then one set of gear and pressing the CA thats not grey yet, but it really is happening man.

Notsovilepriest

10-08-2010, 03:52 PM

<cite>Ajjantis wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Doommaster@Vox wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Ajjantis wrote:</cite><blockquote>When i see a zerker topping the heal parse when we attack him 3 vs 1 i understand that something is broken. When i see a healer eating the dps from a full grp and does not die i understand that something is broken. When i see a meleeing healer hit me for 3k upwards and dps me down before i even hit throu his wards/reactives i understand that something is broken. If you want to remove the small healing scouts get you will have to remove 80% of the dps that healers do and 50 % of the dps tanks can do so we all can go back to our primary roles. But untill a healer and tank can play every frigging role in this came i'll be trying to heal as good as i can.</blockquote>You are not talking about evenly geared people. I don't know of any healer class that can land a 3K hit on another fully geared player - especially in heal spec. I have, however, been hit for over 10K on a regular basis by scouts and mages.Fact is that if 3 fullly geared scouts attack a similarly geared zerker, he will go down in a matter of seconds.As far as healers - I have never seen any healers stand up very long to a stacked group of fully geared players. Normally all it takes to kill a healer is 3 well geared scouts.See the pattern here - due to toughness, the only class that can kill anything are scouts. Sure tanks and healers may be able to stay alive for a long time but in most cases they can't kill anyone who is equally geared and knows how to play their class.</blockquote>Evenly geared people? What do you actually need to pvp nowdays? A Full toughness set and a good 2hander. Thats all you need.</blockquote>Yep thats all you need to be a PvP healer, Nothing more than that! I love how oblivious scouts are of what goes on in their groups and just button mash aimlessly

Messia

10-09-2010, 05:28 AM

<cite>Ajjantis wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Doommaster@Vox wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Ajjantis wrote:</cite><blockquote>When i see a zerker topping the heal parse when we attack him 3 vs 1 i understand that something is broken. When i see a healer eating the dps from a full grp and does not die i understand that something is broken. When i see a meleeing healer hit me for 3k upwards and dps me down before i even hit throu his wards/reactives i understand that something is broken. If you want to remove the small healing scouts get you will have to remove 80% of the dps that healers do and 50 % of the dps tanks can do so we all can go back to our primary roles. But untill a healer and tank can play every frigging role in this came i'll be trying to heal as good as i can.</blockquote>You are not talking about evenly geared people. I don't know of any healer class that can land a 3K hit on another fully geared player - especially in heal spec. I have, however, been hit for over 10K on a regular basis by scouts and mages.Fact is that if 3 fullly geared scouts attack a similarly geared zerker, he will go down in a matter of seconds.As far as healers - I have never seen any healers stand up very long to a stacked group of fully geared players. Normally all it takes to kill a healer is 3 well geared scouts.See the pattern here - due to toughness, the only class that can kill anything are scouts. Sure tanks and healers may be able to stay alive for a long time but in most cases they can't kill anyone who is equally geared and knows how to play their class.</blockquote>Evenly geared people? What do you actually need to pvp nowdays? A Full toughness set and a good 2hander. Thats all you need.</blockquote>for someone with a healer .. you really have no clue. Healing is even different than it was in TSO to be honest ... and my guess is you have to be a horrible healer if you think thats alla healer does. A good 2 hander isn't always the best idea for PVP either ... for larger scale pvp a shield and one hander is much better for survivability. Before you start commenting on what it takes to be a healer maybe you should actually learn your healer a little more.

Roald

10-09-2010, 11:23 AM

Healers were curing too much too often. 40 seconds reuse is over the top.Find a number between the current value and 40 seconds that is acceptable and use it, it's that simple.

Ahlana

10-09-2010, 11:42 AM

<cite>Milambers@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>Healers were curing too much too often. 40 seconds reuse is over the top.Find a number between the current value and 40 seconds that is acceptable and use it, it's that simple.</blockquote>Thought I read that with max reuse it gets as low as 20secs?That doesn't seem over the top to me.. I could be wrong, my wife only plays healers 4 to be exact all but one in T9 lol... so time will tell. She doesn't seem to worried about it but some we will see.

Ayaka

10-09-2010, 01:04 PM

Going to be a fun and interesting change in my opinion. Healers that are good at their classes will make their group shine even more by taking this on as a challenge they can overcome, and healers that have been relying on their toughness and group cures to save them will see their groups fall faster. Come on. Instead of complaining, prepare for it now. Look at new and old items, look at items with cc control (stun immunities, stifle immunities, mez immunities, you name it), look at items with cure procs, and make a new pvp gear set. Every healer in group versus group will be faced with the same changes, and that one healer who has thought it through and has very much prepared for it will see that they can make an even larger influence on their group success more than ever before. I'm not saying it's not going to be harder - it is, and it's going to affect every healer, although in different magnitudes. But if you are good at what you do, take on the change as a new challenge, and group with the right people that understand that they will not be group cured every 5-10 seconds... You will see that you can make an even larger impact than you've had before. Fights are going to end faster for sure, but there will be much more strategy, planning, and skill involved now. Whether you agree or not, the change is coming, so you need to find solutions.~Ayaka

Notsovilepriest

10-09-2010, 06:29 PM

<cite>Ahlana wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Milambers@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>Healers were curing too much too often. 40 seconds reuse is over the top.Find a number between the current value and 40 seconds that is acceptable and use it, it's that simple.</blockquote>Thought I read that with max reuse it gets as low as 20secs?That doesn't seem over the top to me.. I could be wrong, my wife only plays healers 4 to be exact all but one in T9 lol... so time will tell. She doesn't seem to worried about it but some we will see.</blockquote>Being forced into PvP gear which has little to no reuse, Only shaman or Inqs will even have a shot at it with PvP gear on. Inqs since they have 30% Reuse from Myth and Heal stance combined, and shamans since they have AA to cut the reuse.

Crismorn

10-09-2010, 06:32 PM

I still wont use my heal stance, heck my bg spec does not even have a heal stance in it lolz.But yeah my reuse will suck

Notsovilepriest

10-09-2010, 06:34 PM

<cite>Ayaka wrote:</cite><blockquote>Going to be a fun and interesting change in my opinion. Healers that are good at their classes will make their group shine even more by taking this on as a challenge they can overcome, and healers that have been relying on their toughness and group cures to save them will see their groups fall faster. Come on. Instead of complaining, prepare for it now. Look at new and old items, look at items with cc control (stun immunities, stifle immunities, mez immunities, you name it), look at items with cure procs, and make a new pvp gear set. Every healer in group versus group will be faced with the same changes, and that one healer who has thought it through and has very much prepared for it will see that they can make an even larger influence on their group success more than ever before. I'm not saying it's not going to be harder - it is, and it's going to affect every healer, although in different magnitudes. But if you are good at what you do, take on the change as a new challenge, and group with the right people that understand that they will not be group cured every 5-10 seconds... You will see that you can make an even larger impact than you've had before. Fights are going to end faster for sure, but there will be much more strategy, planning, and skill involved now. Whether you agree or not, the change is coming, so you need to find solutions.~Ayaka</blockquote>Yes, It's going to be a challenge for my class, a challenge that will cripple it in PvP/BG. In large scale fights even now we can rarely get a cast off and it's passive stuff that mainly does the work for me. Add to that, if we will get a group ward off after the change, the little DoTs that will be stuck sitting much longer will chew even faster through an already quickly disappearing group ward. I'm going to doubt many shaman will last all that long after this change and will either quit or play a different toon in PvP.

Sprin

10-09-2010, 08:15 PM

<cite>Notsovilepriest@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Ahlana wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Milambers@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>Healers were curing too much too often. 40 seconds reuse is over the top.Find a number between the current value and 40 seconds that is acceptable and use it, it's that simple.</blockquote>Thought I read that with max reuse it gets as low as 20secs?That doesn't seem over the top to me.. I could be wrong, my wife only plays healers 4 to be exact all but one in T9 lol... so time will tell. She doesn't seem to worried about it but some we will see.</blockquote>Being forced into PvP gear which has little to no reuse, Only shaman or Inqs will even have a shot at it with PvP gear on. Inqs since they have 30% Reuse from Myth and Heal stance combined, and shamans since they have AA to cut the reuse.</blockquote>Its not just healers that are forced into 90 PVP gear thats garbage... many other classes have that problem too... My ranger is still wearing mostly TSO pvp gear, because it gives far better overall damage stats then the Challenger set.. the only pieces I am really wearing of Challenger gear on his is the chest and legs for the crit bonus (not that it does much good in PVP with crit mit) and the shoulders for my lousy 2% flurry chance that seems to be the only thing rangers have a way of getting flurry on... from the blue adornThe TSO ranger set all has +5-7 DPS and +7 Double attack on every piece... you have to exchange that for a louse power proc or just straight survivability as is the case with the helm , feet, forearms, hands of the Challenger set... you get nothing but toughness and PVP crit mit with those... 2.9 crit bonus or something, but you lose 7 DPS mod and 7 Double attack....The New PVP gear is designed strictly for survivability... I get more DPS out of my old TSO pvp gear then I do the new set....And yes the reuse available on all the 90's gear (I dont know about raid gear cuz I dont raid anymore) is dismal... the Reuse adorns are crap compared to all the other adorns available... and when there is "reuse" on an item, its usuall less then 1%... again, on my Templar TSO pvp gear there is at least one item i have with 5 reuse on it... that is UNHEARD of in 90's PVP gear and 90's gear in general.... including 90's white / blue adorns... Anyone done the math on a 1% reuse? its just humorous at best... and certainly not worth wearing over something else...

Jab

10-10-2010, 06:49 PM

2 steps to pvp healer happyness..1. /delete current healer2. /roll wardenHf.I will give u a bonus trick aswell into eq2 pvp happyness.Scout: Ranger/sinTank: Sk/zerker <---grp only, if solo then brawlers are tied for first with sk.Mage: Warlock/wiz Heal: Warden/INQDont roll anything else unless u know 100% what u are doing or have acces to some of the best gear ingame.Ofc there is always situations where some classes not mentioned will shine heads over all others.But for overall happyness these are the classes u want to play.

Jab

10-10-2010, 07:36 PM

<cite>Crismorn wrote:</cite><blockquote>I still wont use my heal stance, heck my bg spec does not even have a heal stance in it lolz.But yeah my reuse will suck</blockquote>I read.Look at me look at me.Whats a matter..Didnt ur mom hold u tight enough when u where a baby ??!!

sdaigneault

10-11-2010, 09:41 AM

One thing I don't get is how we just need to use more single cures. The problem with that is w/ the constantly taunt locking, it's very difficult to get a target for a single cure. It happens when I'm trying to rez someone as well... try to target the dead person... taunt away... and you get that message, so and so "isn't dead"... I'll be trying to single cure, meanwhile group reactives go down, health goes down, and boom dead. Using single cures more frequently isn't really an option, I can barely get group cures / heals off in time. That's when our group is fighting a x2 or x3. Maybe the whole point of this is that if you're fighting a x2 or x3, you shouldn't have a chance in hell to stay up. I realizing people are used to battling when the odds are totally against them, and surviving, but that wasn't the way it used to be, and honestly I do get tired of these 45 minute stalemate fights where no one ever dies...

Jab

10-11-2010, 09:55 AM

<cite>sdaigneault wrote:</cite><blockquote>One thing I don't get is how we just need to use more single cures. The problem with that is w/ the constantly taunt locking, it's very difficult to get a target for a single cure. It happens when I'm trying to rez someone as well... try to target the dead person... taunt away... and you get that message, so and so "isn't dead"... I'll be trying to single cure, meanwhile group reactives go down, health goes down, and boom dead. Using single cures more frequently isn't really an option, I can barely get group cures / heals off in time. That's when our group is fighting a x2 or x3. Maybe the whole point of this is that if you're fighting a x2 or x3, you shouldn't have a chance in hell to stay up. I realizing people are used to battling when the odds are totally against them, and surviving, but that wasn't the way it used to be, and honestly I do get tired of these 45 minute stalemate fights where no one ever dies... </blockquote>In yellow.This is ur first warning.Do not use logic and common sense on this forum again...Thank you come again.

Darkor

10-11-2010, 10:35 AM

I will never understand why people believe they should be able to stay alive longer than 5 seconds when a raid is beating on them.

MMKA

10-11-2010, 10:49 AM

<cite>Ajjantis wrote:</cite><blockquote>I will never understand why people believe they should be able to stay alive longer than 5 seconds when a raid is beating on them.</blockquote>Probably the same reason people think they should be able to go out in treasured gear the first day they play the game and win a pvp battle with someone in fabled who has been playing the same toon for 5 years!

Charmnevac

10-11-2010, 01:39 PM

Olihin's reasoning for the cure changes is because he has implemented so much gear (i.e. cure charms) that we "need to learn to use"... Well obviously he doesn't want you to learn how to play your class. If he wanted to do the right thing to make cures better he could have disabled things like purifying presence and nerfed the cure charms completely. But he obviously just wants to make it easier for him to kill things on his swashy, so enjoy being able to cure your group once every 40seconds!P.S. Olihin, l2p the [Removed for Content] game and do your job and fix pvp, not ruin it completely and ignore everyone's feedback because you want to do something stupid for yourself. [Removed for Content]

Darkor

10-11-2010, 02:30 PM

He plays a swashy?

Messia

10-11-2010, 02:34 PM

<cite>Charmnevac@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>Olihin's reasoning for the cure changes is because he has implemented so much gear (i.e. cure charms) that we "need to learn to use"... Well obviously he doesn't want you to learn how to play your class. If he wanted to do the right thing to make cures better he could have disabled things like purifying presence and nerfed the cure charms completely. But he obviously just wants to make it easier for him to kill things on his swashy, so enjoy being able to cure your group once every 40seconds!P.S. Olihin, l2p the [Removed for Content] game and do your job and fix pvp, not ruin it completely and ignore everyone's feedback because you want to do something stupid for yourself. [Removed for Content]</blockquote>QFE. I just gained a new level of respect for you charm lol

PeaSy1

10-11-2010, 03:44 PM

<cite>Charmnevac@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>Olihin's reasoning for the cure changes is because he has implemented so much gear (i.e. cure charms) that we "need to learn to use"... Well obviously he doesn't want you to learn how to play your class. If he wanted to do the right thing to make cures better he could have disabled things like purifying presence and nerfed the cure charms completely. But he obviously just wants to make it easier for him to kill things on his swashy, so enjoy being able to cure your group once every 40seconds!P.S. Olihin, l2p the [Removed for Content] game and do your job and fix pvp, not ruin it completely and ignore everyone's feedback because you want to do something stupid for yourself. [Removed for Content]</blockquote>This isnt completely true though.And also this game isnt just about "playing your class" its also about using all the tools available to you to succeed this is what separates players is the people that play the GAME to its potential and not just the class.

Hilt

10-11-2010, 04:18 PM

<cite>Messia@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>I know this would never happen .. but it would certainly send a strong message if we all banded together and did so.</blockquote>Made a dwarf warden just to [Removed for Content] off this idiot.

Charmnevac

10-11-2010, 04:38 PM

<cite>Dudoes@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Charmnevac@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>Olihin's reasoning for the cure changes is because he has implemented so much gear (i.e. cure charms) that we "need to learn to use"... Well obviously he doesn't want you to learn how to play your class. If he wanted to do the right thing to make cures better he could have disabled things like purifying presence and nerfed the cure charms completely. But he obviously just wants to make it easier for him to kill things on his swashy, so enjoy being able to cure your group once every 40seconds!P.S. Olihin, l2p the [Removed for Content] game and do your job and fix pvp, not ruin it completely and ignore everyone's feedback because you want to do something stupid for yourself. [Removed for Content]</blockquote>This isnt completely true though.And also this game isnt just about "playing your class" its also about using all the tools available to you to succeed this is what separates players is the people that play the GAME to its potential and not just the class.</blockquote>It's true when you control it, the rest is about luck of procs or clickies.There's a difference between using tools to your advantage, and being forced to use tools. Fixing items that make a class retardedly op like cure procs makes sense compared to nerfing a classes group cure which can ultimately keep them alive in certain situations.Edit: I realize that you can control clickies, but they don't necessarily directly effect your group. Even then, they have 5minute reuse speeds and have 10second durations which isn't long in group pvp.

Jab

10-11-2010, 05:16 PM

Must.......Rage.......At.............sony arrrrgggggggg....Im still waiting for the day procs in general are being nerfed so we can go back to the way the game was meant to be played..With ur class and some minor help from gear.Instead we have the winner is the guy with most proc gear.What happend to man vs man instead of gear vs gear...BuhhhThink counter strike...Survival of the skilled is the name of that game.Atleast on lan =)

Crismorn

10-11-2010, 06:54 PM

You might have a point if 50%+ of the gear we all wore did not come from the same vender.

Messia

10-11-2010, 07:36 PM

<cite>Hilt wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Messia@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>I know this would never happen .. but it would certainly send a strong message if we all banded together and did so.</blockquote>Made a dwarf warden just to [Removed for Content] off this idiot.</blockquote>grats .... now get past 20

Daalilama

10-12-2010, 03:54 AM

Just gotta say between the dps classes and the sub-par healers chiming in that this nerf is not as bad as just about every damm pvp healer has said repeatedly...just makes me shake my head...I used to give the pvp devs bit of respect but all I can say is gratz on another failure of epic proportions....this nerf again has no logic behind it other than to enable dps classes to overwhelm a grp with so many dots that no healer regardless of gear can clear them...good job on essentially killing open world pvp...again...btw please include betagrounds in this ...as to the argument some dps have stated about the series of "harmless" dets ...might remember currently you generally have wards/reactives/hots runign while the healers clear them..sadly that is now gone as healers will struggle to break taunt lock and use their single cure on themselves (no win scenario but hey as long as the pvp dev is happy he can kill something now)thus ignoring their grp in favor of saving their own bacon...good job yet again.

Jab

10-12-2010, 04:02 AM

<cite>Crismorn wrote:</cite><blockquote>You might have a point if 50%+ of the gear we all wore did not come from the same vender.</blockquote>So the last 50% that has all the nasty high end pve procs are just meh to u =)U need to stop acting like the oracle from delphi m8...U are not the end all be all voice for the community..Sorry to burst ur bubble.

max.power

10-12-2010, 04:40 AM

<cite>Daalilama@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>Just gotta say between the dps classes and the sub-par healers chiming in that this nerf is not as bad as just about every damm pvp healer has said repeatedly...just makes me shake my head...I used to give the pvp devs bit of respect but all I can say is gratz on another failure of epic proportions....this nerf again has no logic behind it other than to enable dps classes to overwhelm a grp with so many dots that no healer regardless of gear can clear them...good job on essentially killing open world pvp...again...btw please include betagrounds in this ...as to the argument some dps have stated about the series of "harmless" dets ...might remember currently you generally have wards/reactives/hots runign while the healers clear them..sadly that is now gone as healers will struggle to break taunt lock and use their single cure on themselves (no win scenario but hey as long as the pvp dev is happy he can kill something now)thus ignoring their grp in favor of saving their own bacon...good job yet again.</blockquote>Another healer that thinks that the cure nerf will only effect him and his group alone while the opposing group can still heal/cure/dps like nothing happened... <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/2786c5c8e1a8be796fb2f726cca5a0fe.gif" border="0" />You all should really play under the new rules before screaming bloody murder.The arguement that healers won't be able to cure all and everything when an x2+ beats on his group will most likely be true - but maybe that's how it should be anyways?

MMKA

10-12-2010, 10:58 AM

<cite>Brain@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>Another healer that thinks that the cure nerf will only effect him and his group alone while the opposing group can still heal/cure/dps like nothing happened... <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/2786c5c8e1a8be796fb2f726cca5a0fe.gif" border="0" />You all should really play under the new rules before screaming bloody murder.The arguement that healers won't be able to cure all and everything when an x2+ beats on his group will most likely be true - but maybe that's how it should be anyways?</blockquote>No, it simply gives the groups with the most scouts an automatic win. That doesn't sound balanced to me.

Toxicz

10-12-2010, 12:51 PM

<cite>Brain@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Daalilama@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>Just gotta say between the dps classes and the sub-par healers chiming in that this nerf is not as bad as just about every damm pvp healer has said repeatedly...just makes me shake my head...I used to give the pvp devs bit of respect but all I can say is gratz on another failure of epic proportions....this nerf again has no logic behind it other than to enable dps classes to overwhelm a grp with so many dots that no healer regardless of gear can clear them...good job on essentially killing open world pvp...again...btw please include betagrounds in this ...as to the argument some dps have stated about the series of "harmless" dets ...might remember currently you generally have wards/reactives/hots runign while the healers clear them..sadly that is now gone as healers will struggle to break taunt lock and use their single cure on themselves (no win scenario but hey as long as the pvp dev is happy he can kill something now)thus ignoring their grp in favor of saving their own bacon...good job yet again.</blockquote>Another healer that thinks that the cure nerf will only effect him and his group alone while the opposing group can still heal/cure/dps like nothing happened... <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/2786c5c8e1a8be796fb2f726cca5a0fe.gif" border="0" />You all should really play under the new rules before screaming bloody murder.The arguement that healers won't be able to cure all and everything when an x2+ beats on his group will most likely be true - but maybe that's how it should be anyways?</blockquote>They should nerf assassin damage with the toughness nerf and leave cures alone... there is no reason whatsoever to nerf them

Charmnevac

10-12-2010, 12:57 PM

Or just nerf PFT in PVP.

Messia

10-12-2010, 01:03 PM

<cite>Doommaster@Vox wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Brain@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>Another healer that thinks that the cure nerf will only effect him and his group alone while the opposing group can still heal/cure/dps like nothing happened... <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/2786c5c8e1a8be796fb2f726cca5a0fe.gif" border="0" />You all should really play under the new rules before screaming bloody murder.The arguement that healers won't be able to cure all and everything when an x2+ beats on his group will most likely be true - but maybe that's how it should be anyways?</blockquote>No, it simply gives the groups with the most scouts an automatic win. That doesn't sound balanced to me.</blockquote>precisely. So again a scout who can't understand why another class doesn't like the fact that said scout will now be even more OP and be able to 2 or 3 shot said healer. Sorry but this is a class defining ability for all healers ... just like stealth is class defining for you ... so how about we remove your ability to go stealth .. which will make ALL your stealth attacks now useless .. thats the magnitude of this nerf for healers. So I'm sure that you dont' want your stealth removed because you like all those massive damage dealing spells that your stealth is attached to right? Or ok maybe not remove your stealth completely but lets put your stealth on a 2min reuse timer so that you can only use one said attack. And lets completely nerf the ability for an assassin thru aa to stay in stealth and front load all their stealth attacks .... class breaking right ? EXACTLY. So how about we do that to all scouts and nerf stealth completely so then you will understand what a class defining nerf is.

Stylish

10-12-2010, 01:03 PM

Hi.I have 3 healers and I don't want to cancel my accounts.Thanks. That is all.

Notsovilepriest

10-12-2010, 01:07 PM

<cite>Stylish wrote:</cite><blockquote>Hi.I have 3 healers and I don't want to cancel my accounts.Thanks. That is all.</blockquote>I have a shaman that I play, that will never leave town except to zone into instances and raid zones thanks to this update.

Stylish

10-12-2010, 01:11 PM

<cite>Notsovilepriest@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Stylish wrote:</cite><blockquote>Hi.I have 3 healers and I don't want to cancel my accounts.Thanks. That is all.</blockquote>I have a shaman that I play, that will never leave town except to zone into instances and raid zones thanks to this update.</blockquote>That's my point. Surely you have alternate characters to play? I know it sucks but someday they will solve the dilemna of shaman's long interruptable casts w/o making them over the top. Its a tough one to balance without people ranting that they gave them too much. I agree with what someone said before about proccing a "steadfast" on tribal rage or w/e. Defintely needs to be looked into but only time will tell what they decide to do.

Jab

10-12-2010, 01:11 PM

<cite>Charmnevac@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>Or just nerf PFT in PVP.</blockquote>I would be tempted to go 1 step further and ask our dev to take a look at the sins self-healing capabilities.Granted most non healers can self heal to some extent,most classes rely on minor heals here and there from gear that can add up, but it takes time.Sins on the other hand can go from red to green very very fast and that is not right imo.Maybe i am wrong about how much each scout/class can self heal compared to sins but if i go by what i see when pvping then this is my observation.I stand corrected if need be ofc.

Jab

10-12-2010, 01:16 PM

Toxicz

10-12-2010, 01:21 PM

<cite>Jabib@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Charmnevac@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>Or just nerf PFT in PVP.</blockquote>I would be tempted to go 1 step further and ask our dev to take a look at the sins self-healing capabilities.Granted most non healers can self heal to some extent,most classes rely on minor heals here and there from gear that can add up, but it takes time.Sins on the other hand can go from red to green very very fast and that is not right imo.Maybe i am wrong about how much each scout/class can self heal compared to sins but if i go by what i see when pvping then this is my observation.I stand corrected if need be ofc.</blockquote>I can finally agree on something with you. I leveled an Assassin up a few months ago, hes lvl 90 250 aa, his gear consists season 2 bg/pvp armor, the rest is t7 or crap lol and in BG's he can heal from 100-200k easy.... The main reason Assassins heal for so much is because of Death Mark and its AA add-on in the SF assassin tree, which heals grp members when it procs for around 600-1000, this is in terrible gear. If my Assassin had Toxicz's gear im sure he'd be able to heal up in the 300-400k's easy.

Messia

10-12-2010, 01:22 PM

max.power

10-12-2010, 01:58 PM

<cite>Messia@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Doommaster@Vox wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Brain@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>Another healer that thinks that the cure nerf will only effect him and his group alone while the opposing group can still heal/cure/dps like nothing happened... <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/2786c5c8e1a8be796fb2f726cca5a0fe.gif" border="0" />You all should really play under the new rules before screaming bloody murder.The arguement that healers won't be able to cure all and everything when an x2+ beats on his group will most likely be true - but maybe that's how it should be anyways?</blockquote>No, it simply gives the groups with the most scouts an automatic win. That doesn't sound balanced to me.</blockquote>precisely. So again a scout who can't understand why another class doesn't like the fact that said scout will now be even more OP and be able to 2 or 3 shot said healer. Sorry but this is a class defining ability for all healers ... just like stealth is class defining for you ... so how about we remove your ability to go stealth .. which will make ALL your stealth attacks now useless .. thats the magnitude of this nerf for healers. So I'm sure that you dont' want your stealth removed because you like all those massive damage dealing spells that your stealth is attached to right? Or ok maybe not remove your stealth completely but lets put your stealth on a 2min reuse timer so that you can only use one said attack. And lets completely nerf the ability for an assassin thru aa to stay in stealth and front load all their stealth attacks .... class breaking right ? EXACTLY. So how about we do that to all scouts and nerf stealth completely so then you will understand what a class defining nerf is. </blockquote>You are all blinded with rage against scouts, especially assassins. Not sure if a rational discussion is possible here.Why do you think that scouts will be able to whack on healers in group fights better than before? Those scouts will have to deal with their healer not able to cure everything, too. Can you really not see this?Oh btw, you can nerf my stealth all you want, stealth breaks on every AoE, DoT, whatever already. Concealment chains in group fights are close to worthless, our biggest attacks - and that's most likely what you all upsets that much - comes from PFT.Geez, nerf PFT then, if you think that that's the main problem this game has and makes you all happy again. Set the crit bonus from PFT to 0 in PvP, I'd be fine with it.

Dementor

10-12-2010, 01:59 PM

This will be a good patch for everyone, well except for you runners out there. And of course the healers are going to whine, there abilities will be scaled down to there appropriate level. I have a Templar and its no challenge to me to be able to heal my party and myself with no chance of being killed. I guess the healers that are whining will have to learn about there toons better.

Notsovilepriest

10-12-2010, 02:03 PM

<cite>Brain@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Messia@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Doommaster@Vox wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Brain@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>Another healer that thinks that the cure nerf will only effect him and his group alone while the opposing group can still heal/cure/dps like nothing happened... <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/2786c5c8e1a8be796fb2f726cca5a0fe.gif" border="0" />You all should really play under the new rules before screaming bloody murder.The arguement that healers won't be able to cure all and everything when an x2+ beats on his group will most likely be true - but maybe that's how it should be anyways?</blockquote>No, it simply gives the groups with the most scouts an automatic win. That doesn't sound balanced to me.</blockquote>precisely. So again a scout who can't understand why another class doesn't like the fact that said scout will now be even more OP and be able to 2 or 3 shot said healer. Sorry but this is a class defining ability for all healers ... just like stealth is class defining for you ... so how about we remove your ability to go stealth .. which will make ALL your stealth attacks now useless .. thats the magnitude of this nerf for healers. So I'm sure that you dont' want your stealth removed because you like all those massive damage dealing spells that your stealth is attached to right? Or ok maybe not remove your stealth completely but lets put your stealth on a 2min reuse timer so that you can only use one said attack. And lets completely nerf the ability for an assassin thru aa to stay in stealth and front load all their stealth attacks .... class breaking right ? EXACTLY. So how about we do that to all scouts and nerf stealth completely so then you will understand what a class defining nerf is. </blockquote>You are all blinded with rage against scouts, especially assassins. Not sure if a rational discussion is possible here.Why do you think that scouts will be able to whack on healers in group fights better than before? Those scouts will have to deal with their healer not able to cure everything, too. Can you really not see this?Oh btw, you can nerf my stealth all you want, stealth breaks on every AoE, DoT, whatever already. Concealment chains in group fights are close to worthless, our biggest attacks - and that's most likely what you all upsets that much - comes from PFT.Geez, nerf PFT then, if you think that that's the main problem this game has and makes you all happy again. Set the crit bonus from PFT to 0 in PvP, I'd be fine with it.</blockquote>Keep the crit bonus, Remove the ignore stealth requiremirement part and it will be fine

MMKA

10-12-2010, 02:31 PM

<cite>Brain@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>You are all blinded with rage against scouts, especially assassins. Not sure if a rational discussion is possible here.Why do you think that scouts will be able to whack on healers in group fights better than before? Those scouts will have to deal with their healer not able to cure everything, too. Can you really not see this</blockquote>Let me try and explain it to you. Scouts are the only winner with this change because they have the ability to stack dets faster than any healer can cure them as it is. Now with a 40 seconds group cure, there is no possible way that healers will be able to remove even a small portion of those dets even if they get rid of healing or toughness gear in favor of the pathetic cure procs on some items. It unfortunate to think the Paladins will get hit extra hard by this because of their recent heal and toughness nerfs.The more scouts a group has, the more dets will be applied and the faster the opposing group will die. This change was clearly aimed at making scouts more powerful than they already are. I don't see how this will balance pvp in any way. Instead of playing healers, people will simply play scouts. If you don't believe me, look at the number of SK's that popped up after they were made nearly invincible. Do we really want pvp to consist of only scouts and SKs?

Kayaph

10-12-2010, 02:39 PM

<cite>Doommaster@Vox wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Brain@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>You are all blinded with rage against scouts, especially assassins. Not sure if a rational discussion is possible here.Why do you think that scouts will be able to whack on healers in group fights better than before? Those scouts will have to deal with their healer not able to cure everything, too. Can you really not see this</blockquote>Let me try and explain it to you. Scouts are the only winner with this change because they have the ability to stack dets faster than any healer can cure them as it is. Now with a 40 seconds group cure, there is no possible way that healers will be able to remove even a small portion of those dets even if they get rid of healing or toughness gear in favor of the pathetic cure procs on some items. It unfortunate to think the Paladins will get hit extra hard by this because of their recent heal and toughness nerfs.The more scouts a group has, the more dets will be applied and the faster the opposing group will die. This change was clearly aimed at making scouts more powerful than they already are. I don't see how this will balance pvp in any way. Instead of playing healers, people will simply play scouts. If you don't believe me, look at the number of SK's that popped up after they were made nearly invincible. Do we really want pvp to consist of only scouts and SKs?</blockquote>You are absolutely right. Because Wardens don't have a cure that they can cast pretty quickly (Every 2 seconds I believe that cures pretty well, removes 2 or 3 dets off target) plus provides A LOT of bonuses as in a HOT, Damage shield, myriad other things that I forget right now.Also, don't forget that Shamans get near instant pvp curing through AA as well. Heaven forbid you have to *GASP* click on the individual to cure as opposed to pushing a one button cure all every 10 seconds. I can see DoomMaster now. "OMG I HAVE TO CLICK MORE THAN THREE BUTTONS RAWR!~~!" If you're that angry about it, participate in the test threads that the devs read and not the random I want attention so I'm acting angry thread.There are alternatives to group cure, yes they require you to actually work, but you don't want scouts to have this EZmode kill you talk of. Why should you have EZmode heal? /soapbox

Notsovilepriest

10-12-2010, 02:41 PM

<cite>Kayaph@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Doommaster@Vox wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Brain@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>You are all blinded with rage against scouts, especially assassins. Not sure if a rational discussion is possible here.Why do you think that scouts will be able to whack on healers in group fights better than before? Those scouts will have to deal with their healer not able to cure everything, too. Can you really not see this</blockquote>Let me try and explain it to you. Scouts are the only winner with this change because they have the ability to stack dets faster than any healer can cure them as it is. Now with a 40 seconds group cure, there is no possible way that healers will be able to remove even a small portion of those dets even if they get rid of healing or toughness gear in favor of the pathetic cure procs on some items. It unfortunate to think the Paladins will get hit extra hard by this because of their recent heal and toughness nerfs.The more scouts a group has, the more dets will be applied and the faster the opposing group will die. This change was clearly aimed at making scouts more powerful than they already are. I don't see how this will balance pvp in any way. Instead of playing healers, people will simply play scouts. If you don't believe me, look at the number of SK's that popped up after they were made nearly invincible. Do we really want pvp to consist of only scouts and SKs?</blockquote>You are absolutely right. Because Wardens don't have a cure that they can cast pretty quickly (Every 2 seconds I believe that cures pretty well, removes 2 or 3 dets off target) plus provides A LOT of bonuses as in a HOT, Damage shield, myriad other things that I forget right now.Also, don't forget that Shamans get near instant pvp curing through AA as well. Heaven forbid you have to *GASP* click on the individual to cure as opposed to pushing a one button cure all every 10 seconds. I can see DoomMaster now. "OMG I HAVE TO CLICK MORE THAN THREE BUTTONS RAWR!~~!" If you're that angry about it, participate in the test threads that the devs read and not the random I want attention so I'm acting angry thread.There are alternatives to group cure, yes they require you to actually work, but you don't want scouts to have this EZmode kill you talk of. Why should you have EZmode heal? /soapbox</blockquote>If only you knew what you were talking about for shaman cures, The recast is not istant in PvP

Ralpmet

10-12-2010, 02:42 PM

<cite>Kayaph@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>You are absolutely right. Because Wardens don't have a cure that they can cast pretty quickly (Every 2 seconds I believe that cures pretty well, removes 2 or 3 dets off target) plus provides A LOT of bonuses as in a HOT, Damage shield, myriad other things that I forget right now.Also, don't forget that Shamans get near instant pvp curing through AA as well. Heaven forbid you have to *GASP* click on the individual to cure as opposed to pushing a one button cure all every 10 seconds. I can see DoomMaster now. "OMG I HAVE TO CLICK MORE THAN THREE BUTTONS RAWR!~~!" If you're that angry about it, participate in the test threads that the devs read and not the random I want attention so I'm acting angry thread.There are alternatives to group cure, yes they require you to actually work, but you don't want scouts to have this EZmode kill you talk of. Why should you have EZmode heal? /soapbox</blockquote>You are aware of how impossible it is to single target cure in a group vs group fight right? Being tauntlocked happens constantly and if their tank is smart enough to be targetting through someone on his own team who is targeting you as a healer you can't cure yourself, or anyone else for that matter, because you get "target is not grouped".Maybe logging onto a healer before you call out "ezmode heal" would make you look less like an idiot.edit: And yes, scouts have ezmode kill, I've killed people at level *42* with just autoattack, if you can't do it at 90 then you've got either [Removed for Content]-poor weapons, no idea how to gear yourself, or sub-par weapon skills.

Kayaph

10-12-2010, 03:20 PM

<cite>Ralpmet wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Kayaph@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>You are absolutely right. Because Wardens don't have a cure that they can cast pretty quickly (Every 2 seconds I believe that cures pretty well, removes 2 or 3 dets off target) plus provides A LOT of bonuses as in a HOT, Damage shield, myriad other things that I forget right now.Also, don't forget that Shamans get near instant pvp curing through AA as well. Heaven forbid you have to *GASP* click on the individual to cure as opposed to pushing a one button cure all every 10 seconds. I can see DoomMaster now. "OMG I HAVE TO CLICK MORE THAN THREE BUTTONS RAWR!~~!" If you're that angry about it, participate in the test threads that the devs read and not the random I want attention so I'm acting angry thread.There are alternatives to group cure, yes they require you to actually work, but you don't want scouts to have this EZmode kill you talk of. Why should you have EZmode heal? /soapbox</blockquote>You are aware of how impossible it is to single target cure in a group vs group fight right? Being tauntlocked happens constantly and if their tank is smart enough to be targetting through someone on his own team who is targeting you as a healer you can't cure yourself, or anyone else for that matter, because you get "target is not grouped".Maybe logging onto a healer before you call out "ezmode heal" would make you look less like an idiot.edit: And yes, scouts have ezmode kill, I've killed people at level *42* with just autoattack, if you can't do it at 90 then you've got either [Removed for Content]-poor weapons, no idea how to gear yourself, or sub-par weapon skills.</blockquote>Because I don't have a 86 warden or a t4 locked 39 defiler that I cure with constantly. I was incorrect as there is a 2 second cd on pvp cures but the Sta line gives you the reuse and delay removal. The 2 sec recast is built in to pvp mechanics. I stand corrected on that part. I have played group v group pvp, both in open pvp and bgs. When I am in the BGs (aside from Gears because relic counts towards damage and defilers can't heal relic damage well) I generally lead the top of the heal parse, and cures. Yes, this is before group cures become an issue. I also have my 86 warden spec'd for healing and have ALL of the AA points in Cures possible, so I know a thing or two about curing in group v group. I never said I was the best, just that you can cure pretty well by clicking instead of using the group cure only.

Crismorn

10-12-2010, 03:26 PM

Curing yourself with single target cure is easy, curing others is the hard part even when using F2-6 it can be near impossible if your opponent has more intelligence then a mildly "slow" child

Messia

10-12-2010, 03:37 PM

<cite>Kayaph@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Doommaster@Vox wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Brain@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>You are all blinded with rage against scouts, especially assassins. Not sure if a rational discussion is possible here.Why do you think that scouts will be able to whack on healers in group fights better than before? Those scouts will have to deal with their healer not able to cure everything, too. Can you really not see this</blockquote>Let me try and explain it to you. Scouts are the only winner with this change because they have the ability to stack dets faster than any healer can cure them as it is. Now with a 40 seconds group cure, there is no possible way that healers will be able to remove even a small portion of those dets even if they get rid of healing or toughness gear in favor of the pathetic cure procs on some items. It unfortunate to think the Paladins will get hit extra hard by this because of their recent heal and toughness nerfs.The more scouts a group has, the more dets will be applied and the faster the opposing group will die. This change was clearly aimed at making scouts more powerful than they already are. I don't see how this will balance pvp in any way. Instead of playing healers, people will simply play scouts. If you don't believe me, look at the number of SK's that popped up after they were made nearly invincible. Do we really want pvp to consist of only scouts and SKs?</blockquote>You are absolutely right. Because Wardens don't have a cure that they can cast pretty quickly (Every 2 seconds I believe that cures pretty well, removes 2 or 3 dets off target) plus provides A LOT of bonuses as in a HOT, Damage shield, myriad other things that I forget right now.Also, don't forget that Shamans get near instant pvp curing through AA as well. Heaven forbid you have to *GASP* click on the individual to cure as opposed to pushing a one button cure all every 10 seconds. I can see DoomMaster now. "OMG I HAVE TO CLICK MORE THAN THREE BUTTONS RAWR!~~!" If you're that angry about it, participate in the test threads that the devs read and not the random I want attention so I'm acting angry thread.There are alternatives to group cure, yes they require you to actually work, but you don't want scouts to have this EZmode kill you talk of. Why should you have EZmode heal? /soapbox</blockquote>well in your infinit wisdom ... try curing someone or even rezzing someone with the infinite taunts .. that now will be cured far less frequently .. so now single target cures will be the same as revive ... NOT A FRIEND NOT A FRIEND NOT A FRIEND.

Kayaph

10-12-2010, 03:48 PM

<cite>Messia@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Kayaph@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Doommaster@Vox wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Brain@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>You are all blinded with rage against scouts, especially assassins. Not sure if a rational discussion is possible here.Why do you think that scouts will be able to whack on healers in group fights better than before? Those scouts will have to deal with their healer not able to cure everything, too. Can you really not see this</blockquote>Let me try and explain it to you. Scouts are the only winner with this change because they have the ability to stack dets faster than any healer can cure them as it is. Now with a 40 seconds group cure, there is no possible way that healers will be able to remove even a small portion of those dets even if they get rid of healing or toughness gear in favor of the pathetic cure procs on some items. It unfortunate to think the Paladins will get hit extra hard by this because of their recent heal and toughness nerfs.The more scouts a group has, the more dets will be applied and the faster the opposing group will die. This change was clearly aimed at making scouts more powerful than they already are. I don't see how this will balance pvp in any way. Instead of playing healers, people will simply play scouts. If you don't believe me, look at the number of SK's that popped up after they were made nearly invincible. Do we really want pvp to consist of only scouts and SKs?</blockquote>You are absolutely right. Because Wardens don't have a cure that they can cast pretty quickly (Every 2 seconds I believe that cures pretty well, removes 2 or 3 dets off target) plus provides A LOT of bonuses as in a HOT, Damage shield, myriad other things that I forget right now.Also, don't forget that Shamans get near instant pvp curing through AA as well. Heaven forbid you have to *GASP* click on the individual to cure as opposed to pushing a one button cure all every 10 seconds. I can see DoomMaster now. "OMG I HAVE TO CLICK MORE THAN THREE BUTTONS RAWR!~~!" If you're that angry about it, participate in the test threads that the devs read and not the random I want attention so I'm acting angry thread.There are alternatives to group cure, yes they require you to actually work, but you don't want scouts to have this EZmode kill you talk of. Why should you have EZmode heal? /soapbox</blockquote>well in your infinit wisdom ... try curing someone or even rezzing someone with the infinite taunts .. that now will be cured far less frequently .. so now single target cures will be the same as revive ... NOT A FRIEND NOT A FRIEND NOT A FRIEND.</blockquote>Use macros that target specific group members? The developers gave the listing. Your hotbar has twelve slots, right? You have 6 group members and each macro can do two abilities. So.../cureplayer g0 noxious spell/cureplayer g0 arcane spellWould be one macro, that you don't have to change that would cure you. You would than make a second one that does elemental and physical (I believe, brain farting right now) targetting yourself. Copy and paste these macros to replace the g0 up to g5 and you have all of your 'Not a target' issues fixed. Right? I mean, I'm no expert but that is what I had my cures setup as before, because I had to find a workaround against that taunt mechanic. Don't whine for someone to make it easy for you, find a way to do it yourself. EDIT: Doing this would give you 24 macros, two hotbars. I think I can swap out my 5th and 6th hotbar to make it so I can cure people with no problem. It might be just me, but I like changes that make me L2PLAY my class better and make it more challenging.

nastymatt

10-12-2010, 03:55 PM

Well having played with the new update I think you will find wardens will not be quitting.. in fact I would now say they are even more powerful than before.The nerfs have helped them. They can still heal ridiculous amounts. As predicted - cures have not effected them but now they do more dps due to toughness nerf.So all the healers here who were predicting doom and gloom are about as wrong as it gets.If wardens weren't the op class before (which they were) they are now (so now more so)...

Notsovilepriest

10-12-2010, 03:56 PM

Kayaph

10-12-2010, 03:57 PM

<cite>Notsovilepriest@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>nastymatt wrote:</cite><blockquote>Well having played with the new update I think you will find wardens will not be quitting.. in fact I would now say they are even more powerful than before.The nerfs have helped them. They can still heal ridiculous amounts. Vures have not effected them but now they do more dps due to toughness nerf.So all the healers here who were predicting doom and gloom are about as wrong as it gets.</blockquote>Wow, wardens are still OP?!</blockquote>Notsoevilpriest, is that sky still falling?

Crismorn

10-12-2010, 04:21 PM

<cite>nastymatt wrote:</cite><blockquote>Well having played with the new update I think you will find wardens will not be quitting.. in fact I would now say they are even more powerful than before.The nerfs have helped them. They can still heal ridiculous amounts. As predicted - cures have not effected them but now they do more dps due to toughness nerf.So all the healers here who were predicting doom and gloom are about as wrong as it gets.If wardens weren't the op class before (which they were) they are now (so now more so)...</blockquote>Toughness cap was lowered and group cures had their reuse tripled, but somehow healers gained footing.I <3 scout mentality, just press the CA thats not grey bro I'm sure you will keep killing people with that brilliant strat.

nastymatt

10-12-2010, 04:32 PM

<cite>Crismorn wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>nastymatt wrote:</cite><blockquote>Well having played with the new update I think you will find wardens will not be quitting.. in fact I would now say they are even more powerful than before.The nerfs have helped them. They can still heal ridiculous amounts. As predicted - cures have not effected them but now they do more dps due to toughness nerf.So all the healers here who were predicting doom and gloom are about as wrong as it gets.If wardens weren't the op class before (which they were) they are now (so now more so)...</blockquote>Toughness cap was lowered and group cures had their reuse tripled, but somehow healers gained footing.I <3 scout mentality, just press the CA thats not grey bro I'm sure you will keep killing people with that brilliant strat.</blockquote>What an utter pathetic childish reply. All you can do is be abusive with the most ridiculous reasoning. If you have not played and experienced the new update then do not bother posting.And yes healers have "gained footing", the decent ones... so you may now struggle.

Ralpmet

10-12-2010, 04:35 PM

<cite>Kayaph@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>Use macros that target specific group members? The developers gave the listing. Your hotbar has twelve slots, right? You have 6 group members and each macro can do two abilities. So.../cureplayer g0 noxious spell/cureplayer g0 arcane spellWould be one macro, that you don't have to change that would cure you. You would than make a second one that does elemental and physical (I believe, brain farting right now) targetting yourself. Copy and paste these macros to replace the g0 up to g5 and you have all of your 'Not a target' issues fixed. Right? I mean, I'm no expert but that is what I had my cures setup as before, because I had to find a workaround against that taunt mechanic. Don't whine for someone to make it easy for you, find a way to do it yourself. EDIT: Doing this would give you 24 macros, two hotbars. I think I can swap out my 5th and 6th hotbar to make it so I can cure people with no problem. It might be just me, but I like changes that make me L2PLAY my class better and make it more challenging.</blockquote>Want to suggest more things that don't work? At least try it out BEFORE you post it as a "possible fix".I mean, do you honestly believe healers haven't tried this in the past few months? Do you think that macros are some hidden thing that no one else but yourself understands? I'm just trying to understand why you'd insult all the healers intelligence by posting what you posted.I'll give you a hint as to what your 2 hotbars of macros would do for you while taunted;"No eligible target.""Target not grouped.""Not a friend."<div><cite>Kayaph@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>Because I don't have a 86 warden or a t4 locked 39 defiler that I cure with constantly. I was incorrect as there is a 2 second cd on pvp cures but the Sta line gives you the reuse and delay removal. The 2 sec recast is built in to pvp mechanics. I stand corrected on that part. I have played group v group pvp, both in open pvp and bgs. When I am in the BGs (aside from Gears because relic counts towards damage and defilers can't heal relic damage well) I generally lead the top of the heal parse, and cures. Yes, this is before group cures become an issue. I also have my 86 warden spec'd for healing and have ALL of the AA points in Cures possible, so I know a thing or two about curing in group v group. I never said I was the best, just that you can cure pretty well by clicking instead of using the group cure only.</blockquote> You can not cure someone while being taunted. "Clicking" does not work while taunted, you get a "No eligible target." or "Not a friend." message. If you've EVER group v group pvped on your warden you'd know this. Please don't blatantly lie on the forums.</div>You should also understand that if the tank is doing what a decent PvP tank does and ASSISSTING THROUGH SOMEONE, you can not even cure yourself. The issue wasn't group curing, it was being forced to group cure due to taunting mechanics (passive taunts, taunt procs, no immunity on lock-target taunts.)

Notsovilepriest

10-12-2010, 04:41 PM

<cite>nastymatt wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Crismorn wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>nastymatt wrote:</cite><blockquote>Well having played with the new update I think you will find wardens will not be quitting.. in fact I would now say they are even more powerful than before.The nerfs have helped them. They can still heal ridiculous amounts. As predicted - cures have not effected them but now they do more dps due to toughness nerf.So all the healers here who were predicting doom and gloom are about as wrong as it gets.If wardens weren't the op class before (which they were) they are now (so now more so)...</blockquote>Toughness cap was lowered and group cures had their reuse tripled, but somehow healers gained footing.I <3 scout mentality, just press the CA thats not grey bro I'm sure you will keep killing people with that brilliant strat.</blockquote>What an utter pathetic childish reply. All you can do is be abusive with the most ridiculous reasoning. If you have not played and experienced the new update then do not bother posting.And yes healers have "gained footing", the decent ones... so you may now struggle.</blockquote>Don't be mad he is right about this

Messia

10-12-2010, 04:44 PM

in a few days pvp will be all scouts, sks, and mages ... GG

Crismorn

10-12-2010, 04:45 PM

Kayaph

10-12-2010, 04:50 PM

<cite>Ralpmet wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Kayaph@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>Use macros that target specific group members? The developers gave the listing. Your hotbar has twelve slots, right? You have 6 group members and each macro can do two abilities. So.../cureplayer g0 noxious spell/cureplayer g0 arcane spellWould be one macro, that you don't have to change that would cure you. You would than make a second one that does elemental and physical (I believe, brain farting right now) targetting yourself. Copy and paste these macros to replace the g0 up to g5 and you have all of your 'Not a target' issues fixed. Right? I mean, I'm no expert but that is what I had my cures setup as before, because I had to find a workaround against that taunt mechanic. Don't whine for someone to make it easy for you, find a way to do it yourself. EDIT: Doing this would give you 24 macros, two hotbars. I think I can swap out my 5th and 6th hotbar to make it so I can cure people with no problem. It might be just me, but I like changes that make me L2PLAY my class better and make it more challenging.</blockquote>Want to suggest more things that don't work? At least try it out BEFORE you post it as a "possible fix".I mean, do you honestly believe healers haven't tried this in the past few months? Do you think that macros are some hidden thing that no one else but yourself understands? I'm just trying to understand why you'd insult all the healers intelligence by posting what you posted.I'll give you a hint as to what your 2 hotbars of macros would do for you while taunted;"No eligible target.""Target not grouped.""Not a friend."<div><cite>Kayaph@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>Because I don't have a 86 warden or a t4 locked 39 defiler that I cure with constantly. I was incorrect as there is a 2 second cd on pvp cures but the Sta line gives you the reuse and delay removal. The 2 sec recast is built in to pvp mechanics. I stand corrected on that part. I have played group v group pvp, both in open pvp and bgs. When I am in the BGs (aside from Gears because relic counts towards damage and defilers can't heal relic damage well) I generally lead the top of the heal parse, and cures. Yes, this is before group cures become an issue. I also have my 86 warden spec'd for healing and have ALL of the AA points in Cures possible, so I know a thing or two about curing in group v group. I never said I was the best, just that you can cure pretty well by clicking instead of using the group cure only.</blockquote> You can not cure someone while being taunted. "Clicking" does not work while taunted, you get a "No eligible target." or "Not a friend." message. If you've EVER group v group pvped on your warden you'd know this. Please don't blatantly lie on the forums.</div>You should also understand that if the tank is doing what a decent PvP tank does and ASSISSTING THROUGH SOMEONE, you can not even cure yourself. The issue wasn't group curing, it was being forced to group cure due to taunting mechanics (passive taunts, taunt procs, no immunity on lock-target taunts.) </blockquote>Than why would the dev post it as a work around and usable solution? How does the macro not work that states who to heal?

Crismorn

10-12-2010, 04:52 PM

Probably because they know less about this game then many of the people who play it.

MMKA

10-12-2010, 04:55 PM

<cite>Ralpmet wrote:</cite><blockquote>I mean, do you honestly believe healers haven't tried this in the past few months? Do you think that macros are some hidden thing that no one else but yourself understands? I'm just trying to understand why you'd insult all the healers intelligence by posting what you posted.I'll give you a hint as to what your 2 hotbars of macros would do for you while taunted;"No eligible target.""Target not grouped.""Not a friend."</blockquote>Yes, macros in pvp are worthless because of this ^^It's pretty easy to tell who on this discussion plays a healer and who plays a scout!

Cloakentuna

10-12-2010, 05:27 PM

<cite>Kayaph@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Ralpmet wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Kayaph@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>Use macros that target specific group members? The developers gave the listing. Your hotbar has twelve slots, right? You have 6 group members and each macro can do two abilities. So.../cureplayer g0 noxious spell/cureplayer g0 arcane spellWould be one macro, that you don't have to change that would cure you. You would than make a second one that does elemental and physical (I believe, brain farting right now) targetting yourself. Copy and paste these macros to replace the g0 up to g5 and you have all of your 'Not a target' issues fixed. Right? I mean, I'm no expert but that is what I had my cures setup as before, because I had to find a workaround against that taunt mechanic. Don't whine for someone to make it easy for you, find a way to do it yourself. EDIT: Doing this would give you 24 macros, two hotbars. I think I can swap out my 5th and 6th hotbar to make it so I can cure people with no problem. It might be just me, but I like changes that make me L2PLAY my class better and make it more challenging.</blockquote>Want to suggest more things that don't work? At least try it out BEFORE you post it as a "possible fix".I mean, do you honestly believe healers haven't tried this in the past few months? Do you think that macros are some hidden thing that no one else but yourself understands? I'm just trying to understand why you'd insult all the healers intelligence by posting what you posted.I'll give you a hint as to what your 2 hotbars of macros would do for you while taunted;"No eligible target.""Target not grouped.""Not a friend."<div><cite>Kayaph@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>Because I don't have a 86 warden or a t4 locked 39 defiler that I cure with constantly. I was incorrect as there is a 2 second cd on pvp cures but the Sta line gives you the reuse and delay removal. The 2 sec recast is built in to pvp mechanics. I stand corrected on that part. I have played group v group pvp, both in open pvp and bgs. When I am in the BGs (aside from Gears because relic counts towards damage and defilers can't heal relic damage well) I generally lead the top of the heal parse, and cures. Yes, this is before group cures become an issue. I also have my 86 warden spec'd for healing and have ALL of the AA points in Cures possible, so I know a thing or two about curing in group v group. I never said I was the best, just that you can cure pretty well by clicking instead of using the group cure only.</blockquote> You can not cure someone while being taunted. "Clicking" does not work while taunted, you get a "No eligible target." or "Not a friend." message. If you've EVER group v group pvped on your warden you'd know this. Please don't blatantly lie on the forums.</div>You should also understand that if the tank is doing what a decent PvP tank does and ASSISSTING THROUGH SOMEONE, you can not even cure yourself. The issue wasn't group curing, it was being forced to group cure due to taunting mechanics (passive taunts, taunt procs, no immunity on lock-target taunts.) </blockquote>Than why would the dev post it as a work around and usable solution? How does the macro not work that states who to heal?</blockquote>Obviously Olihin and the other devs know about as much in PvP about this game as you do.Here, you let educate you. A cure macro is in essence a really quick target, cure, previous target macro. Now, if you are force taunted onto a tank and you try and click that cure macrod to somebody else, you will get the message that you can't change targets at this time and you won't cure anything. Now, if you want to just single cure through the tank you'll cure whoever the tank taunting you has targeted, unless they have somebody in their group targetted.You're welcome.

Charmnevac

10-12-2010, 07:53 PM

PVP has been fine with me as far as cures go. I rolled in a group with a defiler and warden and never had anything stack up on anybody. The complications you healers foresaw aren't really as bad as you thought they would be. Not from my perspective.

PeaSy1

10-12-2010, 07:59 PM

<cite>Charmnevac@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>PVP has been fine with me as far as cures go. I rolled in a group with a defiler and warden and never had anything stack up on anybody. The complications you healers foresaw aren't really as bad as you thought they would be. Not from my perspective.</blockquote>Isnt that what i said? oddi mean cures were just recently normalized didnt anyone play them before then?

MMKA

10-13-2010, 02:58 AM

After playing for a few hours in BG and pvp on my inquisitor, I noticed the following:Group cures in pvp are no longer worth casting. By the time you cast them and remove a total of 6 detriments on a 6 man group that already has 70+ on them, you could have casted a group heal and attempted to heal through everything. Removing 6 random detriments every 35 seconds is a total waste of a healers time and does absolutely nothing to help the group. Just as before, single target cures are impossible if there is a tank in the opposing group.The real problem is that I don't have time to cure myself because I am trying to keep a group alive with 10-25 dots ticking on each person. This puts me in a position of being constantly mezzed, stunned, feared, etc. so getting off a group heal is a gamble - you just keep clicking heal buttons till something takes. I just concentrate on healing myself through all the dots and hope my gear procs are enough to heal everyone else.If you don't have enough scouts in your group to kill or disable the opposing scouts, it seems the best route is to simply let the people with the most detriments die and try to res them (or let them revive in BGs). I can cast a res much faster than I can ever think about curing that amount of dets off someone. Just as I suspected, pvp is now all about how many scouts in the group. More scouts = more DOTS that cannot be removed. Thanks SOE, you did another great job at balancing pvp! Hopefully this change finally puts this debacle of a pvp system out of it's misery and we won't have to worry it any longer.The funny thing is that with all those dots ticking and not having to cure, my heal parse in bg is much higher than it ever has been before!

Notsovilepriest

10-13-2010, 03:03 AM

<cite>Doommaster@Vox wrote:</cite><blockquote>After playing for a few hours in BG and pvp on my inquisitor, I noticed the following:Group cures in pvp are no longer worth casting. By the time you cast them and remove a total of 6 detriments on a 6 man group that already has 70+ on them, you could have casted a group heal and attempted to heal through everything. Removing 6 random detriments every 35 seconds is a total waste of a healers time and does absolutely nothing to help the group. Just as before, single target cures are impossible if there is a tank in the opposing group.The real problem is that I don't have time to cure myself because I am trying to keep a group alive with 10-25 dots ticking on each person. This puts me in a position of being constantly mezzed, stunned, feared, etc. so getting off a group heal is a gamble - you just keep clicking heal buttons till something takes. I just concentrate on healing myself through all the dots and hope my gear procs are enough to heal everyone else.If you don't have enough scouts in your group to kill or disable the opposing scouts, it seems the best route is to simply let the people with the most detriments die and try to res them (or let them revive in BGs). I can cast a res much faster than I can ever think about curing that amount of dets off someone. Just as I suspected, pvp is now all about how many scouts in the group. More scouts = more DOTS that cannot be removed. Thanks SOE, you did another great job at balancing pvp! Hopefully this change finally puts this debacle of a pvp system out of it's misery and we won't have to worry it any longer.The funny thing is that with all those dots ticking and not having to cure, my heal parse in bg is much higher than it ever has been before!</blockquote>Yep, I didn't PvP/BG on my shaman in protest. I went in on my Brigand and literally destroyed anyone I saw in seconds including tanks because I would lower their mit so much and their healer couldnt' really cure and they would implode. It was dumb how much damage I did so fast. i would die over and over some rounds since healers didn't appear to Queue too much today, but I would do roughly 2x what the next closest person on damage output <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Darkor

10-13-2010, 04:38 AM

<cite>Notsovilepriest@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Doommaster@Vox wrote:</cite><blockquote>After playing for a few hours in BG and pvp on my inquisitor, I noticed the following:Group cures in pvp are no longer worth casting. By the time you cast them and remove a total of 6 detriments on a 6 man group that already has 70+ on them, you could have casted a group heal and attempted to heal through everything. Removing 6 random detriments every 35 seconds is a total waste of a healers time and does absolutely nothing to help the group. Just as before, single target cures are impossible if there is a tank in the opposing group.The real problem is that I don't have time to cure myself because I am trying to keep a group alive with 10-25 dots ticking on each person. This puts me in a position of being constantly mezzed, stunned, feared, etc. so getting off a group heal is a gamble - you just keep clicking heal buttons till something takes. I just concentrate on healing myself through all the dots and hope my gear procs are enough to heal everyone else.If you don't have enough scouts in your group to kill or disable the opposing scouts, it seems the best route is to simply let the people with the most detriments die and try to res them (or let them revive in BGs). I can cast a res much faster than I can ever think about curing that amount of dets off someone. Just as I suspected, pvp is now all about how many scouts in the group. More scouts = more DOTS that cannot be removed. Thanks SOE, you did another great job at balancing pvp! Hopefully this change finally puts this debacle of a pvp system out of it's misery and we won't have to worry it any longer.The funny thing is that with all those dots ticking and not having to cure, my heal parse in bg is much higher than it ever has been before!</blockquote>Yep, I didn't PvP/BG on my shaman in protest. I went in on my Brigand and literally destroyed anyone I saw in seconds including tanks because I would lower their mit so much and their healer couldnt' really cure and they would implode. It was dumb how much damage I did so fast. i would die over and over some rounds since healers didn't appear to Queue too much today, but I would do roughly 2x what the next closest person on damage output <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" /></blockquote>While you are at it, do you mind making a video using fraps how you go into a BG and show me how you lower their miti efficient and destroy em while their healer is standing next to them unable to cure it? I'd like to see what you said above.