Time Warp going group wide

[Cometar]

<p><a href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?start=15&topic_id=487418" target="_blank">/cheer</a>.</p><p>Basically, if you don't wanna read the link, TW going group now (including group pets) with a 2 min base recast.</p><p>Edit: Wanted to include the changes directly. /discuss</p>

[Boldac]

<p>Well, it's a start.</p>

[Sapphy]

<p>This sounds pretty neat... that is if it is to fix time warp so its usability is better and not reconcile our dps in place of other spell changes.  Illy really needs to move back towards reasonable personal dps like preexpansion and what the class role was intended to be and not the seemingly more and more contributive/support dps with negligible self dps route where we buff other people to dps for us as our only means of active raid gameplay. </p>

[snowli]

<p>Good news! I still don't think spell double attack with a tiny 5 second window actually parses nearly as much in real raid settings as devs think it does, and certainly nothing at all like other SF class ability temp buffs like VC & Stampede and so on, but it's a really positive sign that feedback on this lead to a change.</p>

[andreas2901]

<p>It's a start ? It's the end !</p><p>the other tw change would have increased our dps a little bit. now we double buff the summoners and we buff the healers and anyone else too which increases the gap more and more and more. this change is another step on our way to became 100% buffbots.</p>

[andreas2901]

<p>and know what ? the tw change was already 1 week on test, could be in game already. now they are trying to get the crap change on test as fast as possible. just lol. maybe this joke is rdy for velious.</p><p>I have a suggestion for next expansion. Give us supporter gear, dps mages are already complaing about dps loot wasted to illus. Please give us lots of hp gear with many resis on it and reuse/castspeed for our support only.</p>

[Neferthiti]

<p>I agree.</p><p>As I initialy understood the reason for that change was to raise the missing single dps support for the illusionist himself.</p><p>So making the spell as self cast at the same time is best. The illusionist do not have to skip himself giving TW to another mage. Thats even better cause there is no moral questen for the illusionst, like: Do i support myself on the last way i have or do i support 2-3 different mages.</p><p>The main increase with uncapping immunity ist raising the DPS there for at the period of time TW is working to 4x.</p><p>Sure it is also a benefit for one mage if he is getting all 4 times the TW. But then i would be questioning why this person get 4 times TW.</p><p>I do not like the grpwideeffect cauz first it's a cut off your balls for any illusionist (he isn't anymore allowed to decide who gets it or not) and second it's not raising the dps of the illu, if everybody else get raised to.</p>

[Neferthiti]

<p>And if we are here on supporting summoners, i would like to have a balance for the OVER 150potency a pet can easily have. Not spoken from the other support abilitys having no end.</p><p>Wiz, Lock, Illu would like an advance to compare with that, too.</p>

[andreas2901]

<p>the strange thing is, some of the illus are happy with the new change which replaced the good one which was about to go live. tells me that the good guys are gone since a long time and only trash is left.</p>

[snowli]

<p>The annoying single target tw change was never going to make any meaningful headway into the illy personal issues anyway, those changes have to come seperately. Groupwide TW is a good change. If illy's don't want to support their group, maybe they should roll a sorceror or predator.</p>

[LivelyHound]

I still think the whole damned spell should be reworked. This implementation of TW , the last, the current on live all suck. The amount of dps gained from this spell is abysmal. To all those who say youre a support class deal with it ,,, blah blah blah,,, i' m all for support. This spell is not support its a waste of time. There are other suggestions for this spell that maintain its support function but are far better than this travesty of and endline endgame ability.

[snowli]

<p>Groupwide at 1 minute reuse, TW is still a crappy ability compared to other SF signature abilities, no argument, in real useage it just sucks hard, but at least that is a change that only takes 5 minutes to implement if we can get them to do it, so we might see it in a few months...</p><p>Holding out for building a totally new ability to replace timerwarp that doesn't suck at all, would be the most desireable, but probably wouldn't appear for 1-3 years or something staggering, and there's no guarantee that it wouldn't suck in real useage when it did finally appear.</p>

[thajo]

<p>You said earlier if Illys want to do DPS and not buff their group they should roll a t1 dps.  If you are mindful of the spells sorcs have and buff a sorc with TW at the right time, there are some encounters, trash encounters hands down and also a great handful of named mobs that can die in under 2 min, where TW can spike a sorc way up at the top of the parse.  TW can make a wizard out DPS a warlock on an AoE heavy pull if done correct.  I thought your role was to make the DPS in your group do insane DPS?  When my fusion that hits 3 mobs for 200k average slapping TW on is no different than you hitting a button that dropped an additional gaurenteed 600k damage on the encounter.  Thats only 1 of the AoE's I can get off in a chain too.  How about when I can launch off Ice Comet, Fusion, and Rays on a single target situation...IC and Fusion can avg for 150 - 200k on some fights and Rays can easily land for 100 - 160k.  So in this situation your TW would be the equivalent of dropping an extra gaurenteed 500k+ damage on the mob.  TW may not be the type of buff that is powerful in the sense it gives everyone an amazing parse, like VC...a just flat out massive 100% dmg proc for 10s.  But done correctly it is a pretty insane spell if your sorcs arn't crappy and know how to time stuff really well.</p><p>What about the lengthy encounters you say?  It doesn't hurt commonly having the ability to lay out a row of double attack heavy hitters cause very rarely is spell DA chance generous enough to let me double 4 - 6 spells in a row.  Also TW can be played very smartly.  There are encounters in the game where say, an add spawns and it MUST die fast within a set time limit or your raid receives a fail condition.  TW a sorc in this situation and it could prove very useful to the encounter if you need that burst DPS.  There are encounters where the fight will go smooth up to a certain point, and then you cross the line where you MUST BURN really hard for the next 15s or you might lose...TW burst DPS ftw.  Even one of the more difficult UD wing 3 mobs requires a completly wicked fast burn of a single target x4 before you tackle the rest of the encounter because it has an AoE that perpetually hits the raid harder and harder, at a quick rate.  TW is not only a nice DPS buff but it can be a tool in fights that greatly aids in defeating it overall when burst DPS is what is needed.  I explain the change I personally would make to it if I could have the chance, based on this somewhat.</p><p>Speaking as a T1 dps class your nuts thinking TW should be scrapped, its one of the biggest temp DPS buffs my wizard has rolled with in the 4 years ive raided, and as spells get more powerful and average higher and higher, as spell double attack has evolved for wizards, the ability will become more and more powerful.  Just look at how dps scales over the expansions/new gear releases.  I personallh think TW should just be a Rays type of thing.  Make it effect mages only groupwide and with the mage only restriction return it to a 1 min recast.  If you want to be a balls out DPS buffer this would certainly do better than leaving a double recast just so healers/whatever random class can have it inherently effect their abilities.  The group-wide aspect is only boggling because I couldn't see intention of having it be precasted to hit healers for crucial heal moments nor do I see much light to other classes aside from mages making use of it, the group-wide bit sounds like an easy-to-code bandaid to make it easy mode and boringly generic, but fair and simple.  Obvs in its release state they just gave it the simple ability of being a group ally buff but I don't think they saw it as something healers/non mages would desire.  Ask for an AA in Velious that increases TW duration by 1s per rank, ask for an AA in velious that gives TW +2 potency and .5s increased duration per rank.  Imo think outside the box about it, cause it is powerful in its current state and the most minor of tweaks could perpetuate its power pretty well.  </p><p>Before any asks or comments on spell DA in general, I'd like to say I looked at my most recent labs/palace ZWs.  On both of them spell DA accounted for 8 - 10% of my ZW dps.  I'm willing to bet some of the healthier double attacks came from TW induced moments too since I almost always get my Fusion and Ice Comets off with TW active, as opposed to the random chance of doubling our crappy spells. </p><p>Top dps sources of a 70k palace ZW (with steady Illy TW lovin' ) :</p><p>7600 - ice comet</p><p>7300 - spell double attacks</p><p>7100 - ball of fire</p><p>5500 - fusion</p><p>my 2c</p>

[LivelyHound]

<p>Dakkota a quck few questions?</p><p>Your numbers are most useful however you left out the most important one: How much spell double attack do you run with from gear? In your parse list for ice comet is that the single attacks only or does that include your ice comet (doubles)? In other words meaning that the ice comet value is sort of inflated, and that spell doubles account for your greatest source of dps? Could you provide the whole break down report for spell double attack for that labs? So that I can see the amount from ice comet fusion and all the rest as it might help work out just how much benefit TW is giving. As it currently stands you get 5secs of TW with 2mins of immunity afterwards. That means it is on you 4% of the time. So mostly your spell doubles are not going to be coming from it, albeit you cync the big hits. Factor in that you are also one of the best geared for your class and that you are hitting your biggest nukes at the right time thus providing more benefit than a less geared wizard. Then factor in that you are playing the one class that benefits most from TW and you are looking at the max benefit currently possible I would imagine. Without further input lets says that 50% of your spell double parse comes from TW. That's 4-5% of you zw. From what is probably one of the toons that benefits from it best worldwide. Very few others will see this much benefit. TW going grp wide will benefit the mages in the group for certain but you will gain maybe for most mages 2%, zw, less for other toon types. Now couple in the best class for TW is wiz (Single target) war (aoe) and everyone else will gain even less as they will a) interrupt their cast order to hold big spells to coincide, or b) they wont and they benefit less from weaker spells doubling. On a toon doing 30K, i.e. not endgame average raid mage, you going to gain maybe 600 - 900 dps per mage. Which over a group will average half that as you rarely get more than 3 mages in one group doing 30K each for you average raiders. The poeple that most illies will be with. So for your 90K group you gain maybe 3K max from TW. Even at 4%, which is highly unlikely given the posted data, thats 6K max for the group for a somewhat stacked group. Is this worthwhile, personally I dont think so. I certainly agree that making it 1min mage only would be far better than the blanket grpwide. However I think dps growth is insane as it is, and timewarp is making the problem worse as it is so beneificial to so few classes. Thinking outside the box is what i proposed in other threads about what to change tw into. But are you seriously propsing that we have another aa added in velious to make our endgame endline ability worthwhile? That's a pretty sad state of affairs for a class, especially as our endgame lvl 80 spell is pretty useless, not to mention that 2 of our ancient teachings are also, nor one of the endline abilities in the same tw tree... want me to go on <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" /> It should be fixed period now. Not fixed later via another ability, as that basically means we spend 7 pts on our endline ability compared to everyone else spending 2. The whole class needs fixing and as the only real word we have on the issue is CC will be useful in raids (/rolleyes, I hope but doubt it, due to the whole CC is OP palava) and TW we kinda need TW to be a big fix to get the class better. This is not it.</p>

[thajo]

<p><cite>LivelyHound wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Dakkota a quck few questions?</p><p>Your numbers are most useful however you left out the most important one: How much spell double attack do you run with from gear? In your parse list for ice comet is that the single attacks only or does that include your ice comet (doubles)? In other words meaning that the ice comet value is sort of inflated, and that spell doubles account for your greatest source of dps? Could you provide the whole break down report for spell double attack for that labs? So that I can see the amount from ice comet fusion and all the rest as it might help work out just how much benefit TW is giving. As it currently stands you get 5secs of TW with 2mins of immunity afterwards. That means it is on you 4% of the time. So mostly your spell doubles are not going to be coming from it, albeit you cync the big hits. Factor in that you are also one of the best geared for your class and that you are hitting your biggest nukes at the right time thus providing more benefit than a less geared wizard. Then factor in that you are playing the one class that benefits most from TW and you are looking at the max benefit currently possible I would imagine. Without further input lets says that 50% of your spell double parse comes from TW. That's 4-5% of you zw. From what is probably one of the toons that benefits from it best worldwide. Very few others will see this much benefit. TW going grp wide will benefit the mages in the group for certain but you will gain maybe for most mages 2%, zw, less for other toon types. Now couple in the best class for TW is wiz (Single target) war (aoe) and everyone else will gain even less as they will a) interrupt their cast order to hold big spells to coincide, or b) they wont and they benefit less from weaker spells doubling. On a toon doing 30K, i.e. not endgame average raid mage, you going to gain maybe 600 - 900 dps per mage. Which over a group will average half that as you rarely get more than 3 mages in one group doing 30K each for you average raiders. The poeple that most illies will be with. So for your 90K group you gain maybe 3K max from TW. Even at 4%, which is highly unlikely given the posted data, thats 6K max for the group for a somewhat stacked group. Is this worthwhile, personally I dont think so. I certainly agree that making it 1min mage only would be far better than the blanket grpwide. However I think dps growth is insane as it is, and timewarp is making the problem worse as it is so beneificial to so few classes. Thinking outside the box is what i proposed in other threads about what to change tw into. But are you seriously propsing that we have another aa added in velious to make our endgame endline ability worthwhile? That's a pretty sad state of affairs for a class, especially as our endgame lvl 80 spell is pretty useless, not to mention that 2 of our ancient teachings are also, nor one of the endline abilities in the same tw tree... want me to go on <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" /> It should be fixed period now. Not fixed later via another ability, as that basically means we spend 7 pts on our endline ability compared to everyone else spending 2. The whole class needs fixing and as the only real word we have on the issue is CC will be useful in raids (/rolleyes, I hope but doubt it, due to the whole CC is OP palava) and TW we kinda need TW to be a big fix to get the class better. This is not it.</p></blockquote><p><img src="http://i495.photobucket.com/albums/rr313/dakkotax/spellda.jpg" width="844" height="726" /></p><p>Comment on my numbers....also my TC buffed spell DA is 17%, so TW closes the 83% gap I have to fail at DAing.</p><p>It's of Palace up through the barrier.  Looking at the fusion DAs, I'm fairly certain all of them are from being time-warped.  Once on the bottom floor ring event, again on the Seer ring event, and on the one of the HM twins.  Looking at my Ice Comets, I am quite certain that 3 of them were TW ice comets.  Quite certain about 2 of my Rays.  4 of the Blast of Devastation's are from a single TW'ing, other 3 might have been luck but I think it was part of my HM twin TW chain.  And I'm sure a various handful of ball of fires/hailstorms/thunderclaps/bewilderments at from it too.  (The DoT increase does serious benefit to hailstorm and storming tempest though, something my DA report can't show.)</p><p>Based on that, you can see the list of spells that naturally DA'd on their own (storm of lightning, immolation, incinerate...), and that my natural spell DA doesn't quite consistently rack up the DPS some people think it does albeit good luck and RNG.  But my overall report of spell DA looks much healthier when the bulk of my DPS came from DA'ing my best spells I got at the perfect TWs.  And yes indeed, those values I put in my previous post include the spell double attacks, so yes, my spell DA was my biggest source of overall damage it seems.</p><p>Finally, to do some rough rounding based on the attacks *i know* were from TW.  It seems i got about 4k and change dps from TW that ZW.  My ice comets and fusions minus the TW'd added dps did about 7k for ice comet and 3.5k from fusion.  Of course its always theoretical because obviously I *could* have doubled a few of those hits without the TW, and statistics say I would have a...but I think that is getting more technical than needed.</p><p>I can't disagree that the concept of an AA to aid another AA it pretty redundant and silly sounding, but it wouldn't be the first time I've seen AA's tweaked Via others and I wouldn't mind them giving enough options to possibly include new AA's boosting old ones.  Similar to the way part of the additional SF AA's were basically dedicated to enhancing our existing KoS tree AA's.  May sound lame at a glance, but this is why I think if you get AA's to boost an existing AA, they should do more than bring it up to power, they should push it over its regular power to make it feel like a new AA should, not like a 'fix', if that makes sense.  Thats why I was suggesting powerful things like the possibility of doubling the duration while adding static potency and/or cb etc.</p><p>edit: I hate math and its very possible I made a [Removed for Content] amongst it all, not my strong point but I attempt it when necessary ;/</p>

[Boldac]

<p>I'll have to agree with dakkota here.</p><p>The job of the enchanters and bards is not to be T1 dps...it is to enhance the dps of their group/raid.</p><p>However, that being said, illy's are the most gimped of the 4.  Not just because of their lackluster dps, but because of their lackluster buffs and aa's.  Let coercer's continue to be the kings of power management, it fits their premise better anyway.</p><p>Illy's need to be the king of augmentation.  I think most, if not all illy's would be happy with being on the lower end of T2 for dps if it meant that their role was truly noticable.  Increases to dps for all classes.  Increases to aggro management for the raid/group.  There's alot of good ideas out there, we just need to work together to get the best of the best without overdoing it.</p><p>A group doesn't need a chanter or bard to run cella, but it helps.  And the difference needs to be noticable.</p>

[thajo]

<p>ps. while TW is on the topic of illys group dps enchancing abilities...its still imo that they could use a personal dps boost.  The fact that when you see Coerc's out dps Illy's the thought is...well yeah they are a coercer they should be out dpsing the illy in most cases...that shouldn't be. </p>

[LivelyHound]

<p>Next Question: How much of your zw was fiery blast? My previous guess of 50% being about right from tw, my assertion still stands that grpwide it wont add much. Mainly because as one of the premier wizards ww you have access to the best gear, thus the amount of spread from your low end spell to your high end is bigger and the top end of your spells is greater than 95% of the population. Thus, most people wil see far less return than you. For your avg player that 5% max drops to maybe 3%max for a sorc, 2% for summoners, 1% for chanters,as bourne out by snowlines parses from the testing feedback thread. Out of interest what was the group makeup for that parse? 1 heal, 1 illy, 1 troub, you, 2 others? and as a group how much did they parse zw? The reason I ask is to see roughly how much grp tw is going to add to your grp, which is probably one of the best grp setups to run, right <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" /> If that comes to less than your zw on Fiery Blast... then the two skills need rebalancing. If not then I guess tw is not so bad, or at least it wont be once the grp wide thing goes live. This spell should have major WOOT factor when cast as it is to quote you: a SF endline ability (intended to be very powerful effects) The problem at present is whether it is or not yyou just dont get that feel, the whole effect just gets lost in the zw parse and the illy feels [Removed for Content]. Fiery Blast hitting for 600K makes you go ooo, Paladin adding crit and potency to the whole raid makes you go RAWR, troub giving 100% power back is an effect that may not make you go YEAH! but its a seriously noticable effect on a power hungry class, wardens and 10secs of invulnerability is UBA and so on. For a class that is seriously struggling whatever fix needs to be big at present. Grpwide TW doesnt help much. The trouble in most of the tw threads is the lack of accurate raid parse information and as such I'd like to say thank you for providing it. On the coercer front, its not so much that they outparse us, but that they outparse us , out power regen us, have better utility and identical cc abilities. They are better in almost every respect.</p>

[LivelyHound]

<p><cite>Boldac wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I'll have to agree with dakkota here.</p><p>The job of the enchanters and bards is not to be T1 dps...it is to enhance the dps of their group/raid</p></blockquote><p>For the 20th or so time, TW changes do not mean change to a dps spell for the illy personal dps. I would just like somewhat noticably useful utility from it on a par with other classes.</p>

[Cometar]

<p>I agree with what most people have posted here about TW still needing to be more in line with other endline SF abililites, but I still think that at least making it group wide was a step in the right direction. In fact, I'm guessing part of why that change was made is due to the two stickies at the top of our forum where most people who commented on the suck of TW added it should go group or raid wide at least. Part of what made the ability so annoying to many Illies was having several macro's of just TW on hotbars. At least the change has made it more user friendly and we can stick with one button to click.</p><p>That being said, I agree it still needs more love. It would have been a bit more in line if they had left the VC nerf in (not allowing it to crit), but they corrected that on test yesterday evening (Although, I believe they're reducing damage from it in some fashion with the xpac par some post by Xelgad I don't feel like searching for). The base reuse either needs to be reduced from 2 minutes to 1 minute OR the buff window needs to be increased from 5 seconds to 10 seconds.</p>

[thajo]

<p>So...I noticed my parse was importing my encounters weird and it left 1 encounter out.  FWIW it would only boost the TW given numbers, (thought i seemed short of  D. attacks tbh, cause I knew i had 3 TW fusion attacks but it wasn't seeming to show) but I'll go ahead and show the parse I left out.   </p><p>ps. those doubles were solely from TW.  TW was solid, if only the stupid mobs running in could gather up, even when I miss half the [Removed for Content] mobs TW still puts up numbers and it could have produced 2 extra blasts of dev and 1 extra fusion (~300k more damage)</p><p><img src="http://i495.photobucket.com/albums/rr313/dakkotax/missedpull.jpg" width="996" height="405" /></p><p>When I see 8 mobs rushing our raid, all my AoE's up and the TW inc icon...I definitly might go OOO raWR YEAH!! all at once :p  But to address some things you asked...</p><p>Fiery blast for that ZW was putting up ~2.8k dps  out of my 70k.  That also includes a super charged fiery blast that I used Sol Ro's Wrath of the Burning Prince miracle for, which netted me a 483k FB.  It's average hit was 300k.  Without the miracle one the average is 264k.  Don't remember that specific raid setup but, commonly its me with a troub/illy, healers commonly are furys/inqs, occasional mystics, and more often than not a 2nd dps to take advantge of UT conj/warlock.</p><p><span style="font-size: 11.6667px;">Pretty much no matter how they do it, as a wizard I'd like to see TW recast at 1m, groupwide or single ally w/ no immune.</span></p><p>And hey, least until the bug is fixed illys tandem provides the most top notch deaggro this game has ever seen! <span style="font-size: 11.6667px;"><img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" /></span></p>

[snowli]

<p>I think timewarp is probably better looking for a toptier sorc with huge pot/c.bonus. Timewarped spell doubles don't use ability mod properly, so still good news for top-end sorcerors with massive pot/c. bonus creating huge individual hits where ability mod is a much smaller portion, bad news for people with lower damage nukes/dots where ability mod is a bigger portion.</p><p>Thanks for sharing your figures Dakkota, although I really think you are rather underestimating the typical amount of spell doubles people get from non-TW permanent %chance to spell double type adorn/myth/gear/buff sources. Sitting next to my GF who is number 1 dps in raid, we can endlessly discuss/synchronise this currently annoying ability to a degree almost no-one else can. Raids where she gets all the priority TW's with dispatch/best abilities up she gets 5% dps from spell doubles, however a raid like yesterday where she got precisely zero tw's all night she got 3.5% of her dps from spell doubles.<span style="color: #ff0000;"> <strong>Timewarp was only providing 1.5% DPS out of 5% DPS, spell double sourced is the obvious conclusion.</strong></span></p><p>So out of that 1.5% being provided to a person getting incredibly detailed feedback and twarp discussion and supply on demnd, we still have to take away the dps lost from her holding abilities back to sync with Twarp immunity - how much is that - no real way to tell and duplicate a raid with all the variables, but it could be a significant portion for many people perhaps even more than the 1.5% gain is therefore lost from holding timings back for the Twarp instead of adjusting to dispatch/pom/potm and other factors.</p><p>Now factor in lost dps from other group mates who might hold stuff back just incase of twarp/twarp requests that can't be fulfilled cos, timers, immunity, reuse, scripts, CC etc with vastly inferior communication channels.</p><p>And now you have to take away any DPS lost from mob bounces/frontals and even deaths caused by the sudden massive spikes in damage that can result from TWarp, like elemental blasts for over a million damage creating sudden vast hate spikes yes, and impressives figurs sure, but actual effect on zw figures... minimal.</p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">I think it's quite possible that TW currently could cost some raid nights more dps than it gives in return.</span> Groupwide will at least make it less of an annoyance for the illy themselves, but it's still really rather pathetic when you look at other SF signature abilities, and it's yet another temp buff for the class with an almost endless rotation of rebuffing and temp buffings.</p><p>Whatever about theorycrafting figures, all sorts of viewpoints and assumptions are possible, but the most telling factor really is Illy's don't find their class very fun currently, many find it downright annoying. <span style="color: #ff0000;">Illusionist is currently a class that people may want one in their raids, aslong as they have enough coercers to do the real power regen, and aslong as some other poor bugger has to play the illusionist.</span> TWarp is just no fun for the illusionist, at least at 2min base reuse but 10second not 5second duration the no-fun factor would be offset by maintained usefulness aswell as a decrease in the annoyance factor. Even at 2min base 10sec duration TWarp wouldn't be nearly as good as other SF signature abilities.</p><p>Finally quite aside from whatever happens to TWarp, illy's still need to enjoy their class more, then maybe recruiting new replacement illies would be less of a problem, or some people might even return to the class/game.</p>

[LivelyHound]

<p><cite>Dakkota@Unrest wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>When I see 8 mobs rushing our raid, all my AoE's up and the TW inc icon...I definitly might go OOO raWR YEAH!! all at once :p  But to address some things you asked...</p><p><span style="color: #0000ff;">That is nice to hear, you should let your illy know in voice <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" /> The reason being that we tend to get no feedback or thanks for the job we do. It also leads to Snowlines later point... that its just not fun for the illy. You as the sorc we put it on go OOO RAWR YEAH and we keep on trucking with the carpel tunnel syndrome wondering if it made a difference. We get no visual feedback, little if any from the people TW hits except TW ME NOW! and we get no oooh. </span></p><p><span style="color: #0000ff;">Yes I appreciate we are a support class but as a troub you can hit your SF endline and watch the power climb, as a warden you watch all incoming dmg stop and the tank stabalise and so on. That is the other side of the coin that TW lacks.</span></p><p>Fiery blast for that ZW was putting up ~2.8k dps  out of my 70k...  Don't remember that specific raid setup but, commonly its me with a troub/illy, healers commonly are furys/inqs, occasional mystics, and more often than not a 2nd dps to take advantge of UT conj/warlock. </p><p><span style="color: #0000ff;">Very good to hear as it means that maybe TW is almost up to par with at least the wizzie equivalent, or will be at least once it goes groupwide. The group makeup you supplied is roughly what I would have guessed. You have two dps then the two utility who also have a lesser benefit from TW and the heals. This would work out going off the earlier numbers at around 1.5K to 3K zw for TW.</span></p><p><span style="font-size: 11.6667px;">Pretty much no matter how they do it, as a wizard I'd like to see TW recast at 1m, groupwide or single ally w/ no immune.</span></p><p><span style="font-size: 11.6667px;"><span style="color: #0000ff;">Hehe of course you would 1m doubles your benefit from it. No immune would also. But for the illy to have a spell that is reliant on one/two specific class being present to make it worth casting is a bit depressing as we then essentially have another utility spell that is useable in 5% of our playtime, see doppleganger. YMMV.</span></span></p><p><span style="font-size: 11.6667px;"><span style="color: #0000ff;">One thing on this, look to the future, with every mage already capped on cast etc.. one of the few rooms for growth is spell double attack. It will appear on more and more gear and boom TW becomes pointless. See the rest of illy utility. At 1min you are looking at it being up 12% of the time, if we get that extend to 10 secs say from another aa we then hit 24% of the time. Which either makes your future gear a bit less nice a piece to get or tw becomes more and more overwritten by gear procing spell dbl. It hasn't happened yet and sounds like "the sky is falling!" but given our current situation I think you can appreciate that concern.</span></span></p><p>And hey, least until the bug is fixed illys tandem provides the most top notch deaggro this game has ever seen! <span style="font-size: 11.6667px;"><img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" /></span></p><p><span style="color: #0000ff;">Yeah thats just funny.</span></p></blockquote><p>All in all thanks to your info, I am a little happier with TW, well at least the dps benefit it will provide once it has gone grp wide. This of course assumes, you get things nice, no lag, no stifles etc... which is another major drawback to the current mechanic, but then of course that just invloves a little aoe block coordination.</p><p>And here in lies one of the biggest problems with the spell, you have to cooridinate immunity timers, you have to coordinate with big spells, you have to coordinate with aoe blocks, and once it goes group wide the group need to coordinate all their big spells. That is a lot to ask for the same gain as you get from coordinating 10secs of your own dps. In other words the return should be greater.</p><p>As to the fun factor, it is still missing for the class as a whole, and from TW specifcally. It just doesn't make the player want to cast it, even less so in its current form which annoys so many. Basically once it goes grpwide it will just be another button you push in a rotation and dont even watch the effect as you have other stuff to do. I know with BOD for example on my warlock I love to hit it to see just how many bg numbers pop up! It's exciting, you want to see how you did, TW , you push the button and forget about it. That's the biggest class issue by far for me, the class used to be fun, if you were good you could run cc , power and compete with t2 t1 dps. No doubt the dps was too much but what happened was so extreme, SOE took everything from the class and to put salt on the wound gave us TW, one of the most annoying ability ever invented.</p><p>Dakkota once again thank you for taking the time to provide some solid information for us.</p>

[LivelyHound]

<p><cite>snowline wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Finally quite aside from whatever happens to TWarp, illy's still need to enjoy their class more, then maybe recruiting new replacement illies would be less of a problem, or some people might even return to the class/game.</p></blockquote><p>QFT</p>

[thajo]

<p><cite>LivelyHound wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><strong><em></em></strong></p><p>All in all thanks to your info, I am a little happier with TW, well at least the dps benefit it will provide once it has gone grp wide. This of course assumes, you get things nice, no lag, no stifles etc... which is another major drawback to the current mechanic, but then of course that just invloves a little aoe block coordination.</p><p>And here in lies one of the biggest problems with the spell, you have to cooridinate immunity timers, you have to coordinate with big spells, you have to coordinate with aoe blocks, and once it goes group wide the group need to coordinate all their big spells. That is a lot to ask for the same gain as you get from coordinating 10secs of your own dps. In other words the return should be greater.</p></blockquote><p>I hear that to no end as our endline abilitys mechanic is "push all the front end damage you can in 10s and you get a nuke".  Like time-warp one bad time interrupt/stifle/Kb/stun/lag/stupid slow cast speed dmg shield reactives thrown into that small window of time its active, can screw over the ability.</p><p>I might just be to optimistic and see more good than bad in things.  I tolerate my screwed over fiery blasts where I hit 50 - 100k ones because on the flipside I have blasts that have hit almost 700k.  Same way I've experienced more TW's than I can count on more than 2 hands that have been complete wastes but some of my highest ever parses were undoubtedly aided by TW.  212k on swarm epics in palace...150k on Ernax and adds in labs...no way in heck I could do that w/o TW or fantasy land luck at this point (or points in time) when I got those parses.</p><p>I'm all for illy and TW loving...I got <3 for my illys.</p>

[Showoff]

<p>The feelings not mutual Dakkota.  It only took me like three days to give up on the official forums completely, way to contribute to the nonsense.</p>

[LivelyHound]

It is indeed nonsense <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> But at least now it is nonsense with some informed data from your guild.