Upcoming change to cures in PVP / BG

[Avirodar]

<p>A partial quote from the <a href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?start=0&topic_id=487268#5419093" target="_blank">test update notes (link)</a> relating to PVP combat.</p><p><strong>Inquisitor</strong></p><ul><li>“Resolute Flagellant” has a 40 second reuse in PVP Combat.</li></ul><p><strong></strong><strong>Templar</strong></p><ul><li>“Cleansing of the Soul” now only cures one effect of each type in PVP Combat and has a 40 second reuse.</li><li>“Devoted Resolve” now has a 40 second reuse in PVP Combat.</li></ul><p> Slowing the reuse time of all standard priest group cures (all priests, not just clerics) is silly. It is rediculously easy to pile up detrimental effects on players. Just one scout can pile up so many effects that a priest can not feasibly keep up with it, especially in any kind of group battle situation. Rangers can snare over and over and over and over without having to do anything, and bards can recast group wide debuffs rediculously fast. Keeping up with detrimental effects was already a PITA, this change is just baffling.This is not a change that will inspire people to play priests in BGs/PVP. Quite the opposite.And then to add...Cleaning of the Soul is an Inquisitor ability, not Templar ability.  It is also a class defining, balance giving ability. When Mythicals came out in RoK, the Inquisitor effect was a tank killer, a group wide damage siphon that would make any AE one shot a tank. It was a massive insult to a class already hurting. The Inquisitor population was shrinking at an alarming rate. I know of many who betrayed to Templar, or changed mains, or simply quit, because of SOE's inability to balance the class, then give Inqs the worst mythical effect of any mythical in EQ2.This changed one day, out of the blue, when SOE changed the Inquisitor mythical effect.  This made Inquisitors viable, and desirable. A good cure clickie.A lot of class types get very potent, very desirable effects for having their Mythical/Enervated. Nerfing the Inquisitor effect (Cleansing of the Soul) has as much legitimacy as significantly nerfing the primary, defining abilities of not just all healers, but every class in EQ2. This should NOT happen, but it helps to put the nerf into perspective. Nerfing the effectivenes of cleansing of the soul, to approximately 20% of its current capacity (reuse made almost 3 times slower, and effectiveness per use halved) is not a standard "nerf". It is more akin to putting 637 bullets put into the already charred corpse, then club the scattered remains with a rusty spiked club overkill nerf.  There is nothing subtle about the nerf, if that did not paint a clear picture.It all leads into to being that SOEs approach to BGs/PVPs is wrong. People already complain about a lack of healers in BGs. Nerfing healers will not improve this. Wardens can be a pain to kill in BGs/PVP, so just tweak wardens (very gently). Fix toughness (overdue) and see how it actually effects the flow of combat before nerfing the healer population.SOE should fix the real issue (toughness + pvp_crit_mit) first and foremost, then review other options if required, while trying to avoid what is class defining, balancing abilities.</p>

[Grimfang]

<p>Well, if that doesnt tell us that SOE devs have no idea what skill/abilities/AA's inquis (and templars) have, what does?</p><p>And really, WHY is it needed to actually nerf our cure that much? is it THAT overpowered? (in pvp/BG). And it isnt just our cures that are nerfed... it seems ALL cures are nerfed across the board. Just curious, have they also nerfed the other healers "mythical converted spell" ability too? Or is it just ours?</p>

[Avirodar]

<p><cite>Grimfist@Runnyeye wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Well, if that doesnt tell us that SOE devs have no idea what skill/abilities/AA's inquis (and templars) have, what does?</p><p>And really, WHY is it needed to actually nerf our cure that much? is it THAT overpowered? (in pvp/BG). And it isnt just our cures that are nerfed... it seems ALL cures are nerfed across the board. Just curious, have they also nerfed the other healers "mythical converted spell" ability too? Or is it just ours?</p></blockquote><p>They did not touch other healers conversions in PVP/BG, just ours...I can only hope the Devs responsible for this change, have been playing EQ2 long enough to remember WHY inquisitors got a nice mythical ability. The average Inquisitor is going to get completely smoked by these changes.People like to make out that killing any healer is such an impossible task. But unless the healer is high end, massive toughness + correct adornment geared (or a semi-geared warden), they drop like a bag of rocks. Since the launch of BGs, I have only ever encountered 2 Inqs that were hard to kill, outside of a premade group (I dont regard premades as a good place to judge individual skill and survivability due to the tank factor).I hope any changes to any priest cures, standard and mythical, are abolished.</p>

[Xillean]

<p></p> <p>Wow, talk about being hit where the sun don’t shine, I take a break and come back to seeing this. Even if they did nerf our cures for pvp (something I’m 100% against) they shouldn’t even think of touching your myth buff ability, that’s just beyond wrong, it’s one thing to do a global nerf for all healers for their primary grp cure, its another matter entirely to say oh and you inqs out there tough luck your getting bent over double.</p> <p>Yes I am a warden, and as a warden this just rubs me wrong on so many levels I can only imagine what you inqs must think about this.</p>

[Xillean]

<p> </p><p>As far as nerfing cures because it’s too easy or whatever lame reason their giving, I tested this out with my pvp grp, we went into north Freeport and as always eventually got into a massive battle with a x2 at least. Our grp consisted of a SK, troub, assassin, warden, inq, and a swashbuckler, and even stopping all sense of healing and just spam curing my 2 grp cures and my single on everyone I didn’t even come close to getting all the dots of everyone, as soon as I cured one about 12 more hit us.</p> <p>Not to mention the inq in grp was hitting cures as well and it still barely made a dent in the tons of dots hitting us. I really fail to see any justified reason to nerfing our cures, I mean we are healers, we heal and cure, and tbh while a well geared healer MIGHT be able to withstand a small army for ungodly amounts of time, my key argument there has always been this: We can’t kill anything, period.</p> <p>To maintain ubber I’m not going to die kinds of healing you have to give up any hope of dps of any kind which ends in the ones trying to kill us sighing and being able to walk away.</p>

[S_M_I_T_E]

<p>1) If there is to be a change it should be a BG only change and not a PvP wide change at first.</p><p><em>Even drug companies have Phase I, II, and III trials before their products go out to market.</em></p><p>2) Arguably, if the Inq cure clicky screws around with cure balance archtype wide perhaps more burst DPS or larger detrimentals on our abilities (that have -Wis or whatnot) should be even larger to compensate? </p><p><em>I"ll gladly accept 45% AOE flurry chance from our AA to compensate us on our loss...</em></p><p>3) If that's not possible how about the cure "depth" of the clicky remain unchanged for the individual (Inq) but be halved for the "group" allowing for 1v1's to be effective?</p>

[Grimfang]

<p>Perhaps you should repost this on the test feedback forums? I think the devs are more likely to look there than in the ... well, class forums tbh.</p>

[JesseR]

<p>this is totally screwed up...it was hard to keep dets off a group before in BGs (warlocks!!) and now it's going to be near impossible. Also I'm glad the devs only nerfed the templar mythic...lol (sarcasm off). I can't believe the devs did this, there is no reason to change the curing in BGs period and this just shows how out of touch they are. the only thing that could be worse is them accidentally patching this for pve and pvp lol...</p>

[Urgol]

1. Curing is definitely overpowered. Most debuffs, even if placed smartly, are cured almost instantly. The only exception I can think of is storming tempest under iceshape (when its placed as elemental det, not arcane), and even then inq can one-click their myth to cure it with all the other ele dots. 2. >>They did not touch other healers conversions in PVP/BG, just ours... You should have said that other healers' mythicals (except for templar stun immunity) kind of bl0w in pvp in the first place. Look at fury, both shamans, and even warden to a certain extent. They are like 9k times worse then inq's imba cure and healing burst after the group heal. Any pvp player knows that inq is imba in pvp and above are the two reasons for it. 3. What is the point of nerfing all priests' general group cures and not touching inq myth for pvp balance? Inq is already the single most efficient and most desired pvp healer. Tons of healingz, great anti-cc tools, an aoe prevent, some dps buffs, a wide range of CC spells. No other healer can even come close to inq in solo healing vs a large number of opponents. Like solo healing a group vs an x4 or around. Druids, while they do have some burst healing and their hps is sufficient, get pwnd by cc. Shamen get pwned by both cc and interrupts. Templars dont have the group heals to handle heavy aoe dps. If they didnt nerf the inq cure, other healers are going to finally die out. It's already 8/10 pvp healers are inqs on harla dar, and last time I saw a pvp shaman was back in KoS when I played one. We need balance, not 20% more inquisitors in pvp. It's already hard to find a second non-inq healer for your group, even though two inqs stack ok.

[MMKA]

<p>So the 3 second reuse on single target cures is not op but the 15-20 second reuse on group cures is??</p><p>Why is it ok that a healer is able to cure dots in 1v1 pvp every 3 seconds but gets perma-taunted in groups while his group members are stacked with 20-30 dots never to be removed?</p><p>Curing is one of 2 basic healer abilities. The cure is one of the first things a healer gets at lvl 6. Does it really make sense to nerf a classes main ability? I don't see them nerfing taunts to once every 40 seconds with a 1 second duration. Poisons aren't nerfed to one use every 40 seconds so why cures? Seems to me like some devs like playing scouts - or the scouts are complaining because they are not at OP in pvp as they always have been in the past.</p>

[Avirodar]

<p><cite>Urgol wrote:</cite></p><blockquote>1. Curing is definitely overpowered. Most debuffs, even if placed smartly, are cured almost instantly. The only exception I can think of is storming tempest under iceshape (when its placed as elemental det, not arcane), and even then inq can one-click their myth to cure it with all the other ele dots. 2. >>They did not touch other healers conversions in PVP/BG, just ours... You should have said that other healers' mythicals (except for templar stun immunity) kind of bl0w in pvp in the first place. Look at fury, both shamans, and even warden to a certain extent. They are like 9k times worse then inq's imba cure and healing burst after the group heal. Any pvp player knows that inq is imba in pvp and above are the two reasons for it. 3. What is the point of nerfing all priests' general group cures and not touching inq myth for pvp balance? Inq is already the single most efficient and most desired pvp healer. Tons of healingz, great anti-cc tools, an aoe prevent, some dps buffs, a wide range of CC spells. No other healer can even come close to inq in solo healing vs a large number of opponents. Like solo healing a group vs an x4 or around. Druids, while they do have some burst healing and their hps is sufficient, get pwnd by cc. Shamen get pwned by both cc and interrupts. Templars dont have the group heals to handle heavy aoe dps. If they didnt nerf the inq cure, other healers are going to finally die out. It's already 8/10 pvp healers are inqs on harla dar, and last time I saw a pvp shaman was back in KoS when I played one. We need balance, not 20% more inquisitors in pvp. It's already hard to find a second non-inq healer for your group, even though two inqs stack ok.</blockquote><p>Reply to 1)Cured by what? The imaginary healer that has a 2 second reuse on their group cure?If an opposing BG team moves together, and are smart enough to know how to push buttons (a struggle for many EQ2 players), the incoming rate of detrimentals will be far higher than any priest can come close to curing. If an opposing team consists only of mediocre players who think the key to victory is purely based on sub-average DPS output, and attempt nothing else (like debuffing), then yes, a healer can keep a group cured!So the dilemma is, in BGs, do you :A) Balance the game based on what the average idiot experiences, and compromise balance at a high end... OrB) Balance the game based on what class types are actually capable of, and force people to learn how to play if they want to succeed in BGs?If the answer is A, then PVP/BGs in EQ2 is fail.2)  Yeah, because nothing else worth while was piled up on the benefits other healers get for completing their enervateds. Oh wait... Duh!  They got some good stuff too!3) Wardens: The most stacked, spoon fed healer for PVP and BG gameplay. If you do not think so, you're yet to meet a competent one.</p>

[Somatic]

<p><cite>Avirodar@Oasis wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Reply to 1)Cured by what? The imaginary healer that has a 2 second reuse on their group cure?If an opposing BG team moves together, and are smart enough to know how to push buttons (a struggle for many EQ2 players), the incoming rate of detrimentals will be far higher than any priest can come close to curing. If an opposing team consists only of mediocre players who think the key to victory is purely based on sub-average DPS output, and attempt nothing else (like debuffing), then yes, a healer can keep a group cured!So the dilemma is, in BGs, do you :A) Balance the game based on what the average idiot experiences, and compromise balance at a high end... OrB) Balance the game based on what class types are actually capable of, and force people to learn how to play if they want to succeed in BGs?If the answer is A, then PVP/BGs in EQ2 is fail.2)  Yeah, because nothing else worth while was piled up on the benefits other healers get for completing their enervateds. Oh wait... Duh!  They got some good stuff too!3) Wardens: The most stacked, spoon fed healer for PVP and BG gameplay. If you do not think so, you're yet to meet a competent one.</p></blockquote><p>The main reason cure is getting nerfed is not because of INQ, but because of Wardens. thus <cite>Avirodar #3 is spot on.</cite></p><p>SoE is clever they said...how do we nerf wardens without effecting their heals so they don't cry??  -- lets just nerf all cures across the board including inq mythical since it's a cure.  Which as people have pointed out why only INQ epic is nerfed all epics should get nerfed....soe logic is odd they avoided just nerfing wardens in a bid to nerf them (but equally nerf all healers) yet at the same time they just only target our epic....pretty bogus.   The solution is silly it just makes organized groups that much more overpowered. </p><p>The only real healing class that was super OP solo was a wardens.  All other healing classes could fall easily enough if the other team was competent.  Most wardens also could depending on how good they really were.</p><p>Inq are pretty simple to kill if your in a group with a crappy tank (random bgs yah..), the other group just has their game together better than yours (knowing when to knockback + stifle etc).</p><p>Patch is going to make toughness less and make cures much harder.  People are going to die a lot faster.</p><p>2 healers, prob warden + inq or warden + templar. </p><p>  --both healers will have the orb from x2 for amazing precense II on it for the click to cure for 15 seconds.</p><p>dirge or troub (leaning more toward dirge if possible)</p><p>1 or 2 tanks (sk+ beserker prob best combo, though what mostly matters is how good the players are)</p><p>coercer - illusionist - or warlock.</p><p>-------------------------------------------------------------------------</p><p>perhaps all damage group will be possible too.   The only problem this group may face is the above group since they will have the first 30-40 seconds free of stacked dots etc.  While their group will be getting stacked to the max.</p>

[Urgol]

<p>>>>So the 3 second reuse on single target cures is not op but the 15-20 second reuse on group cures is?? Word is, using single target cure is heavily crippled by a single enemy tank, let alone by several ones in a warfield mass fight >>>Reply to 1) >>>Cured by what? The imaginary healer that has a 2 second reuse on their group cure? No, by a very real inq with tso pvp hammer in main hand, two vig cure rings, and two group cures on 10 sec reuse or below. Oh! And you can pot the taunt and single target cure whenever you wish >>>If an opposing BG team moves together, and are smart enough to know how to push buttons (a struggle for many EQ2 players), the incoming rate of detrimentals will be far higher than any priest can come close to curing. This is false. This statement just shows your complete ignorance about the curing items existing ingame, or your complete disregard for itemising your character for pvp pusrposes specifically. Oh, surprise! There is a symbol with a 20 sec clickie that grants cure on each healing spell, forgot the name of the effect, which you can swap in, use and then swap out; and its reuse is under 2 min. >>>2) Yeah, because nothing else worth while was piled up on the benefits other healers get for completing their enervateds. >>>Oh wait... Duh! They got some good stuff too! Sure they got some stuff too..while the on-hit group ward of shamans is great, it doesnt pull them out of the...place..where they were to the top of pvp healing. They are average at best. And the only thing that really makes a druid viable is group-wide a-aoe, which is generally not needed. >>>3) Wardens: The most stacked, spoon fed healer for PVP and BG gameplay. If you do not think so, you're yet to meet a competent one. I'm not really going to go into epeen-wawing in this thread, but I have seen the best players this game has to offer and some of the best I've ever seen in the most hardcore guilds in most mmo's I've played (daoc, eq2, wow, aoc, the list goes on and on). And you know what? Warden has a very low skill ceiling. You dont need to be a godly warden to rock in group. You need some skills to sucseed as inq however, thats why you probably havent seen a single good inq. I have seen some. They REALLY make wardens look like paladins in terms of both healing and curing. And I have also seen pvp groups who shred a warden's group to pieces, while the inq stands and holds against conj+illu+troub+inq+sk proc frenzy. >>>The main reason cure is getting nerfed is not because of INQ, but because of Wardens. thus Avirodar #3 is spot on. Frankly, I used to not f-kin care about a priest's self-cure in the last like 5 expansions. Yeah self-curing abilities of a warden might be outstanding. Group-curing? Not that much. That's what really matters. As for my 'dream team' group setup, it must be guard + warden/fury + conj + illu + troub + sorcerer/inq depending on wether the druid + guard can hold against the incoming damage or they need a second healer. This setup kinda eliminates dps problems aka it pwn fast, hard and reliable and any range of targets.</p><p>As for scouts...I fail to see ANY use a scout other than troub can even hope to be in the current pvp metagame. While it is true that spell dps has been repeatedly nerfed, melee classes have SO many problems is various aspects of mass pvp that they are currently useless altogether.</p>

[Calain80]

Ah so. IF you are from Nagafen wearing PvP only gear your are overpowered cause of spells? Maybe it is the PvP gear that is the problem? And if you think a Inq is more powerful then a Warden you should not talk about priests as you surely don't know much about the current state of healers.

[Breeanor]

<p>I am not a poster but this obvious lack of thought or planning from SOE really has me doubting thier capacity to fairly make changes.  Almighty devs givith the group cure to all healers and now they have to nerf the group cure by extending it's reuse.  Not only the spell, but they went ahead and added the inquizy myth clicky in the nerf too.  They also lessened the amount of effects the clicky can cure (DOUBLE BAM!)! Abzurd, this is obviously lazyness on their part and what I belive to be a major mistake. </p><p>Now, originally, I wasn't crazy about giving all healers the group cure because it is my opinion that it was inquizy defining.  I was able to live with it because, well, we still had our Mythical cure.  Our clicky is what made the inquisitor a viable healer in raids/pvp, no body complained (too much).  The reason is because we are slow casters and the group cures complimented that fact.  Well, not any more... Leave the "Clicky" alone!  Give it back.</p><p>The real problem in pvp was the inabilitiy of doing any real damage due to how toughness worked.  100% damage reduction with a full set of pvp gear just made toons crazy strong.  With this update, sony changed that and made "everyone" less uber.  No more solo beasts holding off numbers of the enemy.  I've seen mages, fighters, and healers (I was one) survivings with 6 or more toons pounding on them.  I was getting killed left and right and was forced to get pvp gear to survive and then I became a wall.</p><p>I think the toughness change was a fair attempt to even the field because it effected everyone.</p><p>I think the group cure nurf was semi fair because it affected all healers.</p><p>Messing with the Inqisitor Mythical ability is not fair.  It is a nurf to a defining ability that makes the inquisitor less viable as a healer.</p><p>Breejaree, Bree VOX</p>