Have fun dying now!

[Notsovilepriest]

<p><span ><p><strong>(PVP) ABILITIES / ALTERNATE ADVANCEMENT</strong><strong></strong></p><p><strong>Defiler</strong></p><ul><li>“Mail of Souls” now has a 40 second reuse in PVP Combat.</li><li>“Mail of Souls” no longer shows a duration.</li></ul><p><strong>Druids</strong></p><ul><li>“Tunare's Grace” now only cures one effect of each type in PVP Combat and has a 40 second reuse.</li></ul><p><strong>Fury</strong></p><ul><li>“Abolishment” has a 40 second reuse in PVP Combat.</li></ul><p><strong>Inquisitor</strong></p><ul><li>“Resolute Flagellant” has a 40 second reuse in PVP Combat.</li></ul><p><strong>Monk</strong></p><ul><li>“Tranquility” now has a 120 second reuse and heals for less in PVP Combat.</li></ul><p><strong>Mystic</strong></p><ul><li>“Ancestral Balm” now has a 16 second reuse in PVP Combat.</li><li>“Ebbing Spirit” now has a 40 second reuse in PVP Combat.</li><li>“Ebbing Spirit” no longer shows a duration.</li></ul><p><strong>Templar</strong></p><ul><li>“Cleansing of the Soul” now only cures one effect of each type in PVP Combat and has a 40 second reuse.</li><li>“Devoted Resolve” now has a 40 second reuse in PVP Combat.</li></ul><p><strong>Warden</strong></p><ul><li>“Verdant Whisper” has a 40 second reuse in PVP Combat.</li></ul></span></p>

[Ralpmet]

<p>Nevermind no point in posting 2 places. You can REMOVE my post or just let it sit idc.</p>

[Verrie77]

<p>Yep we clearly didnt have enough to cure and heal as it was. Welcome to detrimental-hell and scout-debuff-party <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" />Wish they only add this to 90 BG's, because in 80-89 we have enough to do as it is, and healers arent gods there.</p>

[Shotneedle]

<p>More like, have fun raiding Nagafen players when this is bugged for you in PvE like Legionnaire's Conviction, Stonewill, etc.</p>

[Crismorn]

<p><cite>Notsovilepriest@Nagafen wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><span><p><strong>(PVP) ABILITIES / ALTERNATE ADVANCEMENT</strong><strong></strong></p><p><strong>Defiler</strong></p><ul><li>“Mail of Souls” now has a 40 second reuse in PVP Combat.</li><li>“Mail of Souls” no longer shows a duration.</li></ul><p><strong>Druids</strong></p><ul><li>“Tunare's Grace” now only cures one effect of each type in PVP Combat and has a 40 second reuse.</li></ul><p><strong>Fury</strong></p><ul><li>“Abolishment” has a 40 second reuse in PVP Combat.</li></ul><p><strong>Inquisitor</strong></p><ul><li>“Resolute Flagellant” has a 40 second reuse in PVP Combat.</li></ul><p><span>          “Cleansing of the Soul” now only cures one effect of each type in PVP Combat and has a 40 second reuse.</span></p><p><strong>Monk</strong></p><ul><li>“Tranquility” now has a 120 second reuse and heals for less in PVP Combat.</li></ul><p><strong>Mystic</strong></p><ul><li>“Ancestral Balm” now has a 16 second reuse in PVP Combat.</li><li>“Ebbing Spirit” now has a 40 second reuse in PVP Combat.</li><li>“Ebbing Spirit” no longer shows a duration.</li></ul><p><strong>Templar</strong></p><ul><li>“Devoted Resolve” now has a 40 second reuse in PVP Combat.</li></ul><p><strong>Warden</strong></p><ul><li>“Verdant Whisper” has a 40 second reuse in PVP Combat.</li></ul></span></p></blockquote><p>fixd</p>

[mrsma]

<p>PLEASE.  Stop prating about with NEW ideas and sort out what you have already messed up !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!</p><p>As if they have not got anything else better to be getting on with.</p><p>SOE brainstorm meeting......... OK people. I know from looking at our customer feedback in the forums we have like 1000+ issues that REALLY need sorting out but, hey, lets forget all of them and think of a NEW way to annoy and alienate ourselves even more.....  </p><p>Umm, I know boss, lets nerf all healers for no reason and make it so people don't want to role one OR want to re-role a new class. . Awesome idea.</p><p>You really do need to get your $%&* together SOE. Big time. </p>

[Jab]

<p>Well atm healers can stand toe to toe with 2-3-4+ players on them at the same time.So something had to be done.</p><p>Now is this the right change "nerf" i dunno,i need to see it on live before i make my judgement.Bu something def had to be done about healers u guys.</p><p>Mrsmall. wardens are practically unkillable and have been for ages.So i dont feel sorry for ur class getting some dev attention =)</p><p>Mind u i roll with a warden on a reg basis and as such i enjoy ur OPness emmensely, but deep down we all know it was not right the way healers and especially wardens functioned in pvp.</p><p>None the less i hate when ppl get their classes changed.It is not fair to go about changing things that ppl have been used to for ages. But this is a complicated MMO and im afraid its the nature of the beast.</p>

[Forebian]

<p>/agree gandie</p><p>An equipped Warden is the PvP equivilent of an Epic x 4. In Klak BGs you get a good healer (of any kind) and you can spend the entire match trying to get their health bar to budge off full.</p><p>But concur that I'll have to see the changes in game before I decide whether it is a good change or not.</p>

[LivelyHound]

<p><cite>Forebian wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>/agree gandie</p><p>An equipped Warden is the PvP equivilent of an Epic x 4. In Klak BGs you get a good healer (of any kind) and you can spend the entire match trying to get their health bar to budge off full.</p><p>But concur that I'll have to see the changes in game before I decide whether it is a good change or not.</p></blockquote><p>See on my barely geared warlock I would agree about the warden epic x 4,</p><p>But then on my even less geared illusionist I would laugh at the poor VVV down wardens. (albeit my illy has yet to hit 90)</p><p>All depends what toon you play as to how OP the other classes are.</p><p>The only truely OPd class is ranger imho due to fettering poisons and the enormous range and even then I would have to say the go splat if you get close on the right class.</p><p>As to gears one healer is relatively easily countered, its when they have 2 and you have none that the map becomes broken.</p><p>Honestly if healers are a problem take a chanter if you can find one. Doh, nvm I forgot we all play scoutgrounds nowadays <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p>Last two days I've seen 2 warlocks, 1 necro, 1 conj, 1 coercer, my illy, a smattering of tanks, the same 3 healers, and around 200+ scouts and 50% of those were rangers... ymmv, make of it what you will.</p>

[Jab]

<p><cite>LivelyHound wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Forebian wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>/agree gandie</p><p>An equipped Warden is the PvP equivilent of an Epic x 4. In Klak BGs you get a good healer (of any kind) and you can spend the entire match trying to get their health bar to budge off full.</p><p>But concur that I'll have to see the changes in game before I decide whether it is a good change or not.</p></blockquote><p>See on my barely geared warlock I would agree about the warden epic x 4,</p><p>But then on my even less geared illusionist I would laugh at the poor VVV down wardens. (albeit my illy has yet to hit 90)</p><p>All depends what toon you play as to how OP the other classes are.</p><p>The only truely OPd class is ranger imho due to fettering poisons and the enormous range and even then I would have to say the go splat if you get close on the right class.</p><p>As to gears one healer is relatively easily countered, its when they have 2 and you have none that the map becomes broken.</p><p>Honestly if healers are a problem take a chanter if you can find one. Doh, nvm I forgot we all play scoutgrounds nowadays <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" /></p><p>Last two days I've seen 2 warlocks, 1 necro, 1 conj, 1 coercer, my illy, a smattering of tanks, the same 3 healers, and around 200+ scouts and 50% of those were rangers... ymmv, make of it what you will.</p></blockquote><p>Arrrhhh i am devided here.A good equipped chanter is a nightmare but they are still no match for a well geared well played warden imo.But i guess we will just disagree here.</p><p>On the other hand i totally agree on rangers being somewhat OP with their snares and huge range adv,</p><p>either reduce their snares or reduce their range to a max 25m with 5+m added thru gear/aa/adorment or what have u.Just to clarify: 30m is absolute max for a ranger under any circumstance..</p>

[Tehom]

<p>I kind of like it, since curing was pretty trivial a lot of times. I do think some detrimentals that are applied a lot with longer durations/no break chance, like Fettering Poison, could be looked at, though.</p>

[Jab]

<p><cite>Chath@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I kind of like it, since curing was pretty trivial a lot of times. I do think some detrimentals that are applied a lot with longer durations/no break chance, like Fettering Poison, could be looked at, though.</p></blockquote><p>I couldent agree more..</p>

[Badmotorfinger]

<p>Wish they would have just made most of my DOTs un-cureable....  I see the point of this, though.  Right now Healers are pretty easy-mode with what they have an answer to.  This should make them at least use their heads a little... </p>

[NardacMM]

<p>not knowing anything about <em>how</em> healers work, what were the durations before?</p><p>One thing I do know is that if a good warden or inquisitor gets the relic in Gears more than once, the game's pretty much over regardless of how much damage your team can do.</p>

[S_M_I_T_E]

<p>Guess this means the days of invinicible self-healing healers are over... As well as Xmillion DPS and HPS parses that represent grid-lock...</p><p>Good change, but yeah all those proc item and poison effects need to be looked at now... Take a poll among the Reds what players and classes keep owning you 1v1, reverse engineer why, and adjust it if it's not supposed to be that way like Fabled vs MC (understandable) compared Fabled Class 1 vs Fabled Class 2 (broken).</p>

[AziBam]

<p><cite>Badmotorfinger@Nagafen wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Wish they would have just made most of my DOTs un-cureable....  I see the point of this, though. <strong> Right now Healers are pretty easy-mode</strong> with what they have an answer to.  This should make them at least use their heads a little... </p></blockquote><p>Just one comment I feel obliged to make in response here.  I've played all 4 archetypes in the BGs but mostly played dps classes.  While some of the healing classes can be VERY durable, I'd certainly never call their role in BGs easy-mode.  If anything, in my experience, healing is the most stressful of any of the jobs that need to be done in there.  Especially if you don't have a solid tank or two helping with taunts.  Easy mode is dps.  You kill things, plain and simple.  As a rule, nobody gives a sh*t if you don't really get that done well enough.  But if someone doesn't think they've been healed enough (through the interrupts, stuns, stifles, and people running all over the map) they'll certainly start to complain.  I've even seen people be really snarly with not receiving heals when our groups healer was OOP and said so in chat. Very often, it's a thankless job.   </p><p>As for the changes, I guess we'll have to wait and see since once things reach the stage that they are announcing them to us they rarely change much before going live.</p>

[BlueEternal]

<p><cite>Buffrat@Unrest wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>More like, have fun raiding Nagafen players when this is bugged for you in PvE like Legionnaire's Conviction, Stonewill, etc.</p></blockquote><p>I made a joke in guild about this last night, wouldn't be surprised if it came true.</p>

[Badmotorfinger]

<p><cite>Azian@Everfrost wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Badmotorfinger@Nagafen wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Wish they would have just made most of my DOTs un-cureable....  I see the point of this, though. <strong> Right now Healers are pretty easy-mode</strong> with what they have an answer to.  This should make them at least use their heads a little... </p></blockquote><p>Just one comment I feel obliged to make in response here.  I've played all 4 archetypes in the BGs but mostly played dps classes.  While some of the healing classes can be VERY durable, I'd certainly never call their role in BGs easy-mode.  If anything, in my experience, healing is the most stressful of any of the jobs that need to be done in there.  Especially if you don't have a solid tank or two helping with taunts.  Easy mode is dps.  You kill things, plain and simple.  As a rule, nobody gives a sh*t if you don't really get that done well enough.  But if someone doesn't think they've been healed enough (through the interrupts, stuns, stifles, and people running all over the map) they'll certainly start to complain.  I've even seen people be really snarly with not receiving heals when our groups healer was OOP and said so in chat. Very often, it's a thankless job.   </p><p>As for the changes, I guess we'll have to wait and see since once things reach the stage that they are announcing them to us they rarely change much before going live.</p></blockquote><p>I was generalizing.  Relax.  A healer can be a GOD with the right gear...   So are plenty of other classes.  I wasn't compairing the stress of Healing to the stress of DPS.  I'm looking in from a DOT class perspective.  It's differnt than a DD class when facing a healer.</p>

[StaticLex]

<p>lol</p><p>I don't even know what to say to this nerf.</p><p>Scout DPS here I come I guess..</p>

[Thunndar316]

<p><cite>StaticLex wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>lol</p><p>I don't even know what to say to this nerf.</p><p>Scout DPS here I come I guess..</p></blockquote><p>Aww no more god mode for joo</p>

[Notsovilepriest]

<p>Anyone thinking this is a good change is being short sited, It's undoubtablly going to lead to even less healers playing BGs, paired with yet another increase in damage with the reduction of toughness effectiveness(Which was needed), but making DoTs stack up on groups with no ability to pick what is being cured is a joke.</p>

[Sapphy]

<p><cite>Jabib@Nagafen wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Arrrhhh i am devided here.A good equipped chanter is a nightmare but they are still no match for a well geared well played warden imo.But i guess we will just disagree here.</p></blockquote><p>Your right.  An enchanter will never beat warden on an equal gear and skill level at pvp's current state.  If wardens are putting out enchanters as a weakness they are kidding themselves tbh.  There shouldn't be a whole lot we can do in the matchup at high levels.  Warden can spec for stifle, stun and root immunities and they naturally have way more mitigation/defensive options, can heal through our dps (and in case of illy match our dps too), can cure off most of our high dmg spell because they are dots, etc.. We aren't going to be able to get through a wardens health with our current dps and just interrupts and temporary detargets.</p>

[Odys]

<p>Looks totally stupid, when duelling any scout i simply can't keep myself cured (even with tranquility or Tgrace).  Apparently the devs don't know that poison do proc on auto-attack, apparently they don't know that some poisons are very nasty (mana drain, whatever ....).</p><p>Poisons cure and spell cure should not be adressed in a similar way. Removing a mezz/stun or a dot mean countering an action that an opposing player took, curing a poison is coutering an automatic proc.</p><p>I would probably agree if poison proc  rate was grately decreased.</p>

[StaticLex]

<p><cite>Notsovilepriest@Nagafen wrote:</cite></p><blockquote>..no ability to pick what is being cured..</blockquote><p>And this is exactly why this nerf is asinine.</p>

[Verrie77]

<p><cite>Sapphyra wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p> Warden can spec for stifle, stun and root immunities</p></blockquote><p>Root yes and slow yes it reduces the effect of slow by x amount of %, cant remember how much...the stun and stifle is a proc on the target of heal, or an ability that lasts ~30 sec ( no fight is that short ) and has a pretty long recast. You might wanna look more at Templars with Sanctuary actually....and dont forget clerics steadfast.</p><p>Edit : forgot to add somthing.</p>

[Flobdeth]

<p><cite>Jabib@Nagafen wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Mrsmall. wardens are practically unkillable and have been for ages.So i dont feel sorry for ur class getting some dev attention =)</p></blockquote><p>Only class I know that can stand a full assault from a raid/BG geared brig and not go out of green, that's a lot of damage! takes me 2-3 mins to bring down a well geared warden, whereas I can destroy most other healer classes in a few seconds (cept for 2 certain Defilers <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/97ada74b88049a6d50a6ed40898a03d7.gif" border="0" /> ).  Waaaay OP and imo it's the only healer class that should be adjusted.  Agree with Jabib totally on the warden part.</p>

[BlueEternal]

<p><cite>Flobdeth wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Jabib@Nagafen wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Mrsmall. wardens are practically unkillable and have been for ages.So i dont feel sorry for ur class getting some dev attention =)</p></blockquote><p>Only class I know that can stand a full assault from a raid/BG geared brig and not go out of green, that's a lot of damage! takes me 2-3 mins to bring down a well geared warden, whereas I can destroy most other healer classes in a few seconds (cept for 2 certain Defilers <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/97ada74b88049a6d50a6ed40898a03d7.gif" border="0" /> ).  Waaaay OP and imo it's the only healer class that should be adjusted.  Agree with Jabib totally on the warden part.</p></blockquote><p>So you think destroying all other healers but wardens in "seconds" is fine but attacking a fast casting spot healer who's primary job is to keep a group of 6 alive and stable (all healers jobs honestly) and not killing them is overpowered? Give me a break. If you're killing the other healer classes in seconds, maybe we should look at brigs? Or is this typical crying and overly absurd exaggeration?</p>

[Flobdeth]

<p><cite>Naroc@Nagafen wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Or is this typical crying and overly absurd exaggeration?</p></blockquote><p>Erm...no, all healers should be lasting in the upright position as long as each other in similar BG gear unless they a)suck or b) in rubbish gear, so if that means adjusting the other healers or bringing down wardens to be on a even standing, what's the problem?  I also play a well geared Inquis in BG, I can see the differance!</p><p>As for taking down certain classes relatively quickly on a brig, maybe I know how to play the class and when to attack</p>

[Cloakentuna]

<p><cite>Naroc@Nagafen wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Buffrat@Unrest wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>More like, have fun raiding Nagafen players when this is bugged for you in PvE like Legionnaire's Conviction, Stonewill, etc.</p></blockquote><p>I made a joke in guild about this last night, wouldn't be surprised if it came true.</p></blockquote><p>I'd be willing to bet any amount of plat that I have it gets screwed up.  When they nerfed single cure reuse in I think it was EOF, single cure reuse in pve got nerfed as well on pvp servers until they patched it.</p>

[Laenai]

<p>Looks like I'll be speccing cures for dogdog for BGs.</p>

[Notsovilepriest]

<p><cite>Karimonster wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Looks like I'll be speccing cures for dogdog for BGs.</p></blockquote><p>Keep in mind Dogdog is getting hit by AE auto since it's considered "Direct"</p>

[patrck17]

<p>Got a question for ya ssofa, and let me preface this by saying: I stopped playing at the end of TSO, didn't see SF till this past sunday.  I played a fury which you probably remember were the retarrded healers of most of TSO with all the massive spike damage and cures (till great gear in great groups with gozak hat).  I'm working on getting to 90 so havn't stepped into these BG's or even WF yet so I am a clean slate without bias concerning the current pvp state.  I guess I am partially disappointed that I may have missed the golden age of healers with this toughness combined with what appear to be described as easymode curing.  I'll agree however that if toughness was causing pvp to be endless stalemates that something had to be done.</p><p>Anyways, what I am wondering here is a perception of what it is like now.  I remember back in the mass pvp that was docks zerg, lavazerg, TG zerg etc. there was always a ton of detrimentals that healers than had a pretty tough time getting rid of, the inq mythical helped but even then wasn't enough.  And for say a fury back then against a decent brig or enchanter you'd have stuff stacked on you that you couldn't think to get rid of, so you'd just heal through it.  I guess fury is a bad example since we had the least going for us in terms of stun/stifle immunity and it wasn't as big a problem for other healers, but my point is that the detriments were more than you'd typically even try to keep up with in battle. </p><p>Is it not like that anymore?  Do you think this change would cause it to go back to that?  Are there more procs/clickies/abilities in current pvp state that would make it harder to just try to heal through and cure when you could as in tso? </p>

[Avirodar]

<p>I wonder if SOE thinks changes like this will increase, or decrease, the frequency of which healers use BGs?Fixing toughness, and a small tweak to wardens, would have solved most of the legitimate concerns. I do not know what SOE is trying to achieve here, unless they want even more people to play tanks in BGs?</p>

[Brynhild]

<p>I can't believe they can even THINK about doing this for pvp healers.  There are MORE dets now in pvp than there ever was with so many gear procs.  two healers in a group could use both group cures every time they are up and still the group will be stacked with dets..</p><p>Most of the time the issue is something like having 15 trauma dets, 30 nox dets and the group cures only taking off one or two.. so making it 40s recast is hideous. Making the 'special' group cures take off only 1 instead of two on top of that is even worse..</p><p>I completely do not understand why SOE does not fix the REAL issues instead of changing class defining abilities.</p>

[Ralpmet]

<p><cite>Brynhild wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I can't believe they can even THINK about doing this for pvp healers.  There are MORE dets now in pvp than there ever was with so many gear procs.  two healers in a group could use both group cures every time they are up and still the group will be stacked with dets..</p><p>Most of the time the issue is something like having 15 trauma dets, 30 nox dets and the group cures only taking off one or two.. so making it 40s recast is hideous. <strong>Making the 'special' group cures take off only 1 instead of two on top of that is even worse..</strong></p><p>I completely do not understand why SOE does not fix the REAL issues instead of changing class defining abilities.</p></blockquote><p>Yeah, the bolded part is a little over the top. I mean, 40s is a long time to start with, then you throw in the nerf to it and BAM! Instant suckage.</p><p>Doesn't matter though, 90% of the dets are ignorable and still can be healed through. </p>

[Notsovilepriest]

<p><cite>Ralpmet wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Brynhild wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I can't believe they can even THINK about doing this for pvp healers.  There are MORE dets now in pvp than there ever was with so many gear procs.  two healers in a group could use both group cures every time they are up and still the group will be stacked with dets..</p><p>Most of the time the issue is something like having 15 trauma dets, 30 nox dets and the group cures only taking off one or two.. so making it 40s recast is hideous. <strong>Making the 'special' group cures take off only 1 instead of two on top of that is even worse..</strong></p><p>I completely do not understand why SOE does not fix the REAL issues instead of changing class defining abilities.</p></blockquote><p>Yeah, the bolded part is a little over the top. I mean, 40s is a long time to start with, then you throw in the nerf to it and BAM! Instant suckage.</p><p>Doesn't matter though, 90% of the dets are ignorable and still can be healed through. </p></blockquote><p>Yes, because you pick what you cure when you do need a detriment off, which means the more detriments on you the less chance of getting the one that matters off.</p>

[Ralpmet]

<p><cite>Notsovilepriest@Nagafen wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><blockquote><p>Doesn't matter though, 90% of the dets are ignorable and still can be healed through. </p></blockquote><p>Yes, because you pick what you cure when you do need a detriment off, which means the more detriments on you the less chance of getting the one that matters off.</p></blockquote><p>If you don't cure it right when it comes up someone could bury it, but if you see a det that is going to effect you that much you should cure it as fast as you can. It's called strategically using your cures and not just mindlessly spamming them.</p><p>edit: Before you respond, I want you to go into the BG or WF or SF/SB and test it out with a group, just don't cure and pick and choose debuffs that are gonna wipe you and cure those. I did it for months post-sf before I got my myth cure on my inq, I litterally just single target cured my groups because the group cure for inq only cured 1 det if I was lucky (the only one I have at 89 is the level 70 one. Hopefully it upgrades at 90 <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> )</p>

[Notsovilepriest]

<p><cite>Ralpmet wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Notsovilepriest@Nagafen wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><blockquote><p>Doesn't matter though, 90% of the dets are ignorable and still can be healed through. </p></blockquote><p>Yes, because you pick what you cure when you do need a detriment off, which means the more detriments on you the less chance of getting the one that matters off.</p></blockquote><p>If you don't cure it right when it comes up someone could bury it, but if you see a det that is going to effect you that much you should cure it as fast as you can. It's called strategically using your cures and not just mindlessly spamming them.</p></blockquote><p>Where do you get the idea detriments come off in the order they are applied? This isn't true at all, Dispatch/Cornered/Debilitate and such will come off last of their respective detriement type, regardless of the order applied.</p>

[Ralpmet]

<p><cite>Notsovilepriest@Nagafen wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Ralpmet wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Notsovilepriest@Nagafen wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><blockquote><p>Doesn't matter though, 90% of the dets are ignorable and still can be healed through. </p></blockquote><p>Yes, because you pick what you cure when you do need a detriment off, which means the more detriments on you the less chance of getting the one that matters off.</p></blockquote><p>If you don't cure it right when it comes up someone could bury it, but if you see a det that is going to effect you that much you should cure it as fast as you can. It's called strategically using your cures and not just mindlessly spamming them.</p></blockquote><p>Where do you get the idea detriments come off in the order they are applied? This isn't true at all, Dispatch/Cornered/Debilitate and such will come off last of their respective detriement type, regardless of the order applied.</p></blockquote><p>You haven't tried this before in your life I'm guessing, read the editted section of my last post and go try it and tell us how it went. Curing is like dispelling, a numerical value in order of placed. If they put a debuff ontop of dispatch/cornered/debilitate then no, you won't be able to cure it, you were too slow. Otherwise it'll come off in order.</p>

[Avirodar]

<p><cite>Ralpmet wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Notsovilepriest@Nagafen wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Ralpmet wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Notsovilepriest@Nagafen wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><blockquote><p>Doesn't matter though, 90% of the dets are ignorable and still can be healed through. </p></blockquote><p>Yes, because you pick what you cure when you do need a detriment off, which means the more detriments on you the less chance of getting the one that matters off.</p></blockquote><p>If you don't cure it right when it comes up someone could bury it, but if you see a det that is going to effect you that much you should cure it as fast as you can. It's called strategically using your cures and not just mindlessly spamming them.</p></blockquote><p>Where do you get the idea detriments come off in the order they are applied? This isn't true at all, Dispatch/Cornered/Debilitate and such will come off last of their respective detriement type, regardless of the order applied.</p></blockquote><p>You haven't tried this before in your life I'm guessing, read the editted section of my last post and go try it and tell us how it went. Curing is like dispelling, a numerical value in order of placed. If they put a debuff ontop of dispatch/cornered/debilitate then no, you won't be able to cure it, you were too slow. Otherwise it'll come off in order.</p></blockquote><p>I will check this out next time I am in a BG, if opportunity prevails.One thing I remember standing out in the past, is the SK mana sieve would get buried behind almost every other SK detrimental, even if seive was one of the last, or the last to be cast.But that was several months ago, I am interested to find out if that is still the case.</p>

[Ralpmet]

<p>im going to use imaginary numbers here, completely out of order, just to show you what I mean;</p><p>your going against a guy who has 4 dets, and he's going to put them on in an order on you;</p><p>to keep it simple, we'll use the 1-2-3-4 as the values or level of the spell. We'll say cure cures 4 spell levels in this case.</p><p>if he goes</p><p>det 1</p><p>det 2</p><p>det 3</p><p>det 4</p><p>and you cure, you cure det 4 first, then 3 and 1, then 2.</p><p>Now, if instead he goes</p><p>det 1</p><p>det 4</p><p>det 2</p><p>det 3</p><p>and then you cure, you'll cure 3 and 1 first, 2 by itself, then 4.</p><p>The goal is to find the moment he puts det 4 on and cure it before anything else gets placed.</p><p>If it works differently than I have observed then please feel free to explain to me how it actually works, because I could be wrong, but this has always worked like this for me as far as I can tell.</p><p>edit: This actually comes from my experiences on my coercer, not on my inq. It's much easier to see my debuffs being cured on my profitui bar when they suddenly vanish than it is to see on my inq curing people. However, there is no difference in being the one curing or having your stuff cured off the person you see the same order of things. It's how I learned to stack my debuffs to maximize my dps from spells like hostage and spell curse in pvp though, so it's not like a complete shot in the dark.</p>

[Avirodar]

<p>Which ever way the cure/dispel sequence works, it is not that important. At the current time (no nerf), one person alone can provide a significant amount of detrimentals, to the extent that a priest will have to be curing full time in an attempt to keep up. Trying to keep up with the volume of detrimentals in group combat (which is what BGs are) just does not happen. Using a battle at center tower of smugglers as an example, I frequently see 15+ detrimentals piled up on people in my group.Several DPSers I have talked to about BGs, will try to make you believe that every priest is doing a complete cure-all every 3 seconds, on everyone in the group.  "I cast my DoT, and within a second it is cured, over and over!!!!" is a common complaint. That complaint is so far from actual BG gameplay it is sad, and I hope such complaints did not inspire the changes to cures.</p>

[Ralpmet]

<p><cite>Avirodar@Oasis wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Which ever way the cure/dispel sequence works, it is not that important. At the current time (no nerf), one person alone can provide a significant amount of detrimentals, to the extent that a priest will have to be curing full time in an attempt to keep up. Trying to keep up with the volume of detrimentals in group combat (which is what BGs are) just does not happen. Using a battle at center tower of smugglers as an example, I frequently see 15+ detrimentals piled up on people in my group.Several DPSers I have talked to about BGs, will try to make you believe that every priest is doing a complete cure-all every 3 seconds, on everyone in the group.  "I cast my DoT, and within a second it is cured, over and over!!!!" is a common complaint. That complaint is so far from actual BG gameplay it is sad, and I hope such complaints did not inspire the changes to cures.</p></blockquote><p>You're an inquisitor dude, the myth clicky is insanely op, you're blatantly lying if you're saying your group is constantly detrimentalled up. Let's be honest for once, as is an inq can clear his group with relative ease, might take 2 myth clickies but it completely wipes away a majority of debuffs.</p><p>Unless you want to claim that between level 89 and 90 there are more dets, in which case I'm listening, but the only one I'm aware of is that mutilation/whateveritscalled and I can't see that as being an issue cures wise.</p><p>edit: A majority of dets are non-consequential to have on you or your group, you'll notice very little difference. When this change goes live you'll have to pick up on the ones that make a difference, and cure them before they become a problem. I can see knowing how cure/disp mechanics work now as soemthing not to worry about, but in the near future it'll be the main thing you need to know on a priest in pvp.</p>

[StaticLex]

<p><cite>Ralpmet wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Avirodar@Oasis wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Which ever way the cure/dispel sequence works, it is not that important. At the current time (no nerf), one person alone can provide a significant amount of detrimentals, to the extent that a priest will have to be curing full time in an attempt to keep up. Trying to keep up with the volume of detrimentals in group combat (which is what BGs are) just does not happen. Using a battle at center tower of smugglers as an example, I frequently see 15+ detrimentals piled up on people in my group.Several DPSers I have talked to about BGs, will try to make you believe that every priest is doing a complete cure-all every 3 seconds, on everyone in the group.  "I cast my DoT, and within a second it is cured, over and over!!!!" is a common complaint. That complaint is so far from actual BG gameplay it is sad, and I hope such complaints did not inspire the changes to cures.</p></blockquote><p>You're an inquisitor dude, the myth clicky is insanely op, you're blatantly lying if you're saying your group is constantly detrimentalled up.</p></blockquote><p>You obviously don't know what the hell you are talking about and should just stop talking now.</p>

[Avirodar]

<p>BGs can be a mixed bag. So it depends.Sometimes I am against a group where it is as if they are doing nothing. Very little damage incoming damage, very little in the way of detrimentals. When this happens, I switch to offensive and hit CAs, keeping the group cured is very easy, and the match will likely end fast. Easy tokens...Sometimes I go up against a group where they clearly know how to play. Detrimentals rain down in a never-ending flow, KB's + fears + mezzes + stuns are chained off to make casting a pain, and the damage adds up. This is where things can get quite tricky, and I have to do my best to "shell up" and hope my team is able to protect me, and take the other team out. Being that I queue solo the majority of the time, it requires a little bit of good fortune regarding my team members. You win some, and lose some.It is amazing how much of a difference it can make, when opponents know how to effectively use their class. The rate of incoming detrimentals is always an indicator as to how careful I need to be against another team. It is not a conclusive indicator, but if enemies are piling up detrimentals faster than I can cure, I consider them above the average scrub.So yes, I can keep my group cured up easily against a team of wet paper bags with no chance of competing. But that quickly changes against a team of players with adequate BG skill, knowledge and gear, where the detrimentals do not stop rolling in until they are dead, or we are dead.</p>

[Ralpmet]

<p><cite>Avirodar@Oasis wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>BGs can be a mixed bag. So it depends.Sometimes I am against a group where it is as if they are doing nothing. Very little damage incoming damage, very little in the way of detrimentals. When this happens, I switch to offensive and hit CAs, keeping the group cured is very easy, and the match will likely end fast. Easy tokens...Sometimes I go up against a group where they clearly know how to play. Detrimentals rain down in a never-ending flow, KB's + fears + mezzes + stuns are chained off to make casting a pain, and the damage adds up. This is where things can get quite tricky, and I have to do my best to "shell up" and hope my team is able to protect me, and take the other team out. Being that I queue solo the majority of the time, it requires a little bit of good fortune regarding my team members. You win some, and lose some.It is amazing how much of a difference it can make, when opponents know how to effectively use their class. The rate of incoming detrimentals is always an indicator as to how careful I need to be against another team. It is not a conclusive indicator, but if enemies are piling up detrimentals faster than I can cure, I consider them above the average scrub.So yes, I can keep my group cured up easily against a team of wet paper bags with no chance of competing. But that quickly changes against a team of players with adequate BG skill, knowledge and gear, where the detrimentals do not stop rolling in until they are dead, or we are dead.</p></blockquote><p>But come on, even against a good team it's not bad.</p><p>I mean, I know for me, I *BEG* for teams that lay out dets because one myth clicky and boom everyone is at full health with maybe 1 det left, and I get to DPS the whole time because every 15 seconds the dets come up. Against guys that don't det I have to heal constantly with aoe heals because everyone on my team is still taking damage but no one is detted up, so I'd much rather be in a fight with the op myth clicky because then I can just aimlessly bash combat arts. </p><p>But, myth clicky is only going to cure 3 types max now, and that might turn into a suck fest even if they revert back to the old times later on.</p>

[Oakum]

<p><cite>Flobdeth wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Jabib@Nagafen wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Mrsmall. wardens are practically unkillable and have been for ages.So i dont feel sorry for ur class getting some dev attention =)</p></blockquote><p>Only class I know that can stand a full assault from a raid/BG geared brig and not go out of green, that's a lot of damage! takes me 2-3 mins to bring down a well geared warden, whereas I can destroy most other healer classes in a few seconds (cept for 2 certain Defilers <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/97ada74b88049a6d50a6ed40898a03d7.gif" border="0" /> ).  Waaaay OP and imo it's the only healer class that should be adjusted.  Agree with Jabib totally on the warden part</p></blockquote><p>So basically, in your book you and any other scout or high dps should be able to burn down any healer in 2 seconds and that is supposed to be fun and encourage healers to play BG's how?</p><p>Curing detriments is so much fun too. Especially when you have so many on you or your group for so long that you cant keep off even with 2 group cures that you end up with the 255 incurable detrimental display.</p><p>It goes to show you with the group cure and tranquility nerfs that the dev's have no clue how about how long a single tank, let alone 2 or more tanks, can keep healers taunt locked or interupted especially when you add in any class that can stun, stifle, mez, fear or interrupt.</p><p>I guess the dev's really have no clue that the healers are the first ones targeted by the other side as soon as they are able to.</p><p>Wardens were not indestructable, now a good templer/inquisitor with power regen is, lol. You just have to know their weaknesses and I have been power drained by smart chanters/troubs before and died with my group, even spamming heals when i was not CC'ed and unable to do more then watch the debuffs and dots stack up way past my ablity to cure them.</p><p>The funny thing is, wardens were already nerfed when BG's were put in for PVP but it was hidden by toughness. That was the reduction in time and the removal of the 2 sec stun/knockdown proc on sandstorm. It wont be hidden any more when scouts will be autoattacking leather wearing wardens down in 2 seconds like the person in the post I am responding to.</p><p>I really hope the Trion Worlds Rift game has a druid class that plays close to what a warden does. As it is now the only thing a warden is good for is a third healer for a raid MT group if needed and if any other class healer (even fury now, lol) cant be found for the other group and even group content.  Its getting old cause its basically been this way since LU-13 combat revamp and the bandaids applied by SOE do not fix the problem. Only hide it cause they come out with expansions where MT's need 3 healers for a while for new content and Raid guilds look for a temp raider to get them through it preferably with a bard or chanter alt for them to play normally, lol.</p><p>The reason you have 15 minute long fights is lack of communication in a bg. When 3 out of 12 people are the only ones in voice, you know that its not going to go well unless you get lucky. When everyone is targeting a different healer and tank on the other team, of course you will have a hard time killing them. Now I kind of understand why people make L2P comments, even if they are rude.</p>

[Notsovilepriest]

<p><cite>Oakum wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Flobdeth wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Jabib@Nagafen wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Mrsmall. wardens are practically unkillable and have been for ages.So i dont feel sorry for ur class getting some dev attention =)</p></blockquote><p>Only class I know that can stand a full assault from a raid/BG geared brig and not go out of green, that's a lot of damage! takes me 2-3 mins to bring down a well geared warden, whereas I can destroy most other healer classes in a few seconds (cept for 2 certain Defilers <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/97ada74b88049a6d50a6ed40898a03d7.gif" border="0" /> ).  Waaaay OP and imo it's the only healer class that should be adjusted.  Agree with Jabib totally on the warden part</p></blockquote><p>So basically, in your book you and any other scout or high dps should be able to burn down any healer in 2 seconds and that is supposed to be fun and encourage healers to play BG's how?</p><p>Curing detriments is so much fun too. Especially when you have so many on you or your group for so long that you cant keep off even with 2 group cures that you end up with the 255 incurable detrimental display.</p><p>Now bg's will go like this.</p><p>Rangers, autoattack healer and put into combat with max range gear. Get the CC on them so that they cant cast any pre combat temp buffs.</p><p>Now the other scouts and SKs, target healer, debuff any damage immunties/stoneskins, add new stuns and stifles and in 5 to 10 seconds they will be dead although they may last 15 if a 10 second damage immunity spell lasts the full duration and they manage to get it off since it cant be cast while stunned or stifled.</p><p>Now, assasin and ranger autoattack the tank and any dps scouts down with flurry and use assasinate if necessary. The scout on the side that is CC'ed the longest and doesnt get first strike will die first.</p><p>Now go one shot the mages and go pick off the opposing ranger if they have one while your own healers are reviveing and running back to the fight if one even bothered to cue up just to die over and over and over and over in BG's.</p><p>Just remember, you cant really complain about any less then mastered out, raid/full bg set gear going afk in a match now since all they will be doing is dying constantly till the get a full set of gear and then they will only die 4 or 5 times more then any one else in the BG. Definitely going to be a lot of fun for them in the eyes of any non healer I am sure.</p><p>The easiest bg title to get will be the healer killer ones, lol. At least all the clerics will have to do is stand still for 2 seconds and let steadfast go in effect and they might last for 30 seconds if they can get sanctuary and temp clickies off.</p></blockquote><p>brigs have and always should be the priest killers</p>

[Avirodar]

<p><cite>Notsovilepriest@Nagafen wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>brigs have and always should be the priest killers</p></blockquote><p>Brigs can be very effective priest killers. The upcoming changes to toughness will make them even more effective at such. Brigands can do two things in particular, that really hurts Inqs (and likely most/all healers). I am just thankful that not too many do it. Unfortunately, self-preservation prevents me from going into details! :pHowever, if you want a dead priest, Assassins and Swashbucklers are the best suited for such. Fortunately, most of the dime-a-dozen scouts spend their time trying to kill tanks, and waste all their good abilities.Anyway, the changes to curing are stupid. Sorry Olihin, I know you will not like reading that, but it is how I honestly feel. I am not calling you stupid, just the change. The only complaints I have heard about the cure rate, is from DoT based DPS class types. It usually ends up being that they came across a healer 1v1 in smugglers or ganak, and thought they should be able to smoke the healer with little DoTs...Toughness was a problem. Curing was not. Fix the problem FTW, don't create one.</p>

[Ralpmet]

<p><cite>Avirodar@Oasis wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Notsovilepriest@Nagafen wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>brigs have and always should be the priest killers</p></blockquote><p>Brigs can be very effective priest killers. The upcoming changes to toughness will make them even more effective at such. Brigands can do two things in particular, that really hurts Inqs (and likely most/all healers). I am just thankful that not too many do it. Unfortunately, self-preservation prevents me from going into details! :p</p></blockquote><p>Lol, now that I think about it my next PvP twink is going to be a brig, because they are going to be incredible endgame very shortly. Can't think of another class I hate seeing more when I'm in the BG's, even undergeared ones that I 1flurry if theres a tank nearby scare me.  Like seriously, how easymode can the two things they do well get? When the hardest part about a class is the position in which you place yourself to hit something, that's not right.</p>

[Crismorn]

<p>Dont let them stay behind you.</p><p>Moving helps to, yeah it sucks moving and healing but its better then letting the horrible scouts run through their casting order with ease</p>

[Kota]

<p><cite>Ralpmet wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Avirodar@Oasis wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Notsovilepriest@Nagafen wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>brigs have and always should be the priest killers</p></blockquote><p>Brigs can be very effective priest killers. The upcoming changes to toughness will make them even more effective at such. Brigands can do two things in particular, that really hurts Inqs (and likely most/all healers). I am just thankful that not too many do it. Unfortunately, self-preservation prevents me from going into details! :p</p></blockquote><p>Lol, now that I think about it my next PvP twink is going to be a brig, because they are going to be incredible endgame very shortly. Can't think of another class I hate seeing more when I'm in the BG's, even undergeared ones that I 1flurry if theres a tank nearby scare me.  Like seriously, how easymode can the two things they do well get? When the hardest part about a class is the position in which you place yourself to hit something, that's not right.</p></blockquote><p>a final farewell.  part trois.  this time it's for keeps.  for real.  i mean it.</p>

[Ralpmet]

<p><cite>Tenka@Nagafen wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Ralpmet wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Avirodar@Oasis wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Notsovilepriest@Nagafen wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>brigs have and always should be the priest killers</p></blockquote><p>Brigs can be very effective priest killers. The upcoming changes to toughness will make them even more effective at such. Brigands can do two things in particular, that really hurts Inqs (and likely most/all healers). I am just thankful that not too many do it. Unfortunately, self-preservation prevents me from going into details! :p</p></blockquote><p>Lol, now that I think about it my next PvP twink is going to be a brig, because they are going to be incredible endgame very shortly. Can't think of another class I hate seeing more when I'm in the BG's, even undergeared ones that I 1flurry if theres a tank nearby scare me.  Like seriously, how easymode can the two things they do well get? When the hardest part about a class is the position in which you place yourself to hit something, that's not right.</p></blockquote><p>a final farewell.  part trois.  this time it's for keeps.  for real.  i mean it.</p></blockquote><p>Sorry, but that makes absolutely no sense to me. Anyone know why quoted me when he wrote that message?</p>

[Odys]

<p><cite>Ralpmet wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>You're an inquisitor dude, the myth clicky is insanely op, you're blatantly lying if you're saying your group is constantly detrimentalled up. Let's be honest for once, as is an inq can clear his group with relative ease, might take 2 myth clickies but it completely wipes away a majority of debuffs.</p><p>Unless you want to claim that between level 89 and 90 there are more dets, in which case I'm listening, but the only one I'm aware of is that mutilation/whateveritscalled and I can't see that as being an issue cures wise.</p><p>edit: A majority of dets are non-consequential to have on you or your group, you'll notice very little difference. When this change goes live you'll have to pick up on the ones that make a difference, and cure them before they become a problem. I can see knowing how cure/disp mechanics work now as soemthing not to worry about, but in the near future it'll be the main thing you need to know on a priest in pvp.</p></blockquote><p>Clicky reuse is around 15 seconds, long enough to put 100 detrimental on your group.</p><p>When i duel my favorite scout (last time i dd he was 85, i don't hit him since i 2 shot him ... we just have fun), i simply can't cure myself : with tunare grace + tranquility + single target cure. It's mainly due to poison proc +CA.</p>

[Lethe5683]

<p><span style="color: #993366;">It's argueable that healers may or may not have needed to be nerfed but either way this change is NOT the solution.</span></p>

[Avirodar]

<p>Olihin...Do you even play EQ2? Ever tried to play a healer in lvl90 BGs? I will contently wager you have not, if you think nerfing cures will achieve anything beneficial to the gameplay of BGs.Regarding the near perma-taunt lock from tanks, that habitually re-apply fast even with current group cure timers and the current Inq cure clickie, are of a severity best described as absurd. A priest can not single target cure themselves unless the tank is directly targetting the healer, but the reality is two tanks are normally locked on each other.I do not know what hair brained box of random and worthless ideas you pulled this change out of. My simple advice to you: Can it, fast, very very fast.  I know people like to make out that every T9 BG match is a land locked affair till the bitter end, with only a small handful of deaths in the entire map. The reality is, that is a minority of matches. You would know this if you actually played the game. The changes to toughness, on its own, would be enough to get things going. The changes to cures, all of them, is not neccessary, not required, and a change best described as rediculous and ill concieved.I hope the message is heard and understood.</p>

[StaticLex]

<p><cite>Avirodar@Oasis wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I know people like to make out that every T9 BG match is a land locked affair till the bitter end, with only a small handful of deaths in the entire map.</p></blockquote><p>It's also funny how smooth progress and excellent survivability are the hallmark of a quality PVE group, but when it comes to a BG.. those same qualities suddenly become the anti-christ (mostly according to DPS classes, go figure).  The fact of the matter is DPS classes want to be able to roll into a BG and wtfown anyone at will without having to work with anyone else or even really understand how to play their class well.</p><p>But meh, go ahead and nerf cures and see what happens.  <em>If</em> I play anymore BGs I'll just switch to a DPS class and demonstrate to you how stupid the changes were.</p>

[MMKA]

<p>IMO the healer class one of the most difficult classes to play. After this change, 95% of the healers (or their groups) that still pvp will die in less than 40 seconds while the 5% who are skilled at playing a healer will live just as long as they always have. It will just be more difficult for them.</p><p>The end result: 95% of healers playing scouts and even more people complaining because they can't kill the few healers that are left.</p><p>Maybe instead of nerfing the cures, they should nerf the heals by 75% in pvp. That would insure that nobody could successfully play the class and ALL healers would die in seconds just like they used to!</p>

[Crismorn]

<p><cite>MMKA wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><strong>IMO the healer class one of the most difficult classes to play. After this change, 95% of the healers (or their groups) that still pvp will die in less than 40 seconds while the 5% who are skilled at playing a healer will live just as long as they always have. It will just be more difficult for them.</strong></p><p><strong>The end result: 95% of healers playing scouts and even more people complaining because they can't kill the few healers that are left.</strong></p><p>Maybe instead of nerfing the cures, they should nerf the heals by 75% in pvp. That would insure that nobody could successfully play the class and ALL healers would die in seconds just like they used to!</p></blockquote><p>thats pretty much what i think is going to happen as well, time will tell though</p>