I think PvP is fine the way it is. Kudos SOE

[tooloose]

<p>I have been PvPing on Nagafen since it went live, been in FPs better raid guilds and I have even had simultaneous Overseers and Generals on 3 toons. I am not claiming to be the best, not by a long shot, I am just saying that I have been around the block a few times.</p><p>Now, I see a lot of the old elite complaining about toughness and how it has ruined PvP, but it hasn't. Everyone has it so its equitable. What I see is that the ease of getting good pvp gear has allowed so many other classes to expand their active PvP population base. So aside from the old elite raiders and hardcore PvPers, that number maybe 100 people now, the server has a better chance at attracting more casual players. No one wants to get ganked, and no one will want to stick around in a game where people constantly trash talk to people that get ganked for being new and inexperienced. Expanding the player base is a lot more important than making the old elite happy; sorry to break it to you but SOE is a business. It's goals are to make money and you don't do that by catering to the smallest portion of your customer base and alienating the majority. SOE has improved the game so much for the average player, I hope we can attract new faces to Nagafen. I have already met some new people from blue servers that came to Nagafen after BGing because they saw what fun and challenge it is to fight other players. I think thats a good thing because I enjoy the game and I like meeting new people, but more importantly it will get new customers involved in the best part of the game.</p>

[Jeht]

<p><cite>tooloose wrote:</cite></p><blockquote>i'm a noob</blockquote><p>i summed it up for everyone</p>

[Aleste]

<p><cite>tooloose wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I have been PvPing on Nagafen since it went live, been in FPs better raid guilds and I have even had simultaneous Overseers and Generals on 3 toons. I am not claiming to be the best, not by a long shot, I am just saying that I have been around the block a few times.</p><p>Now, I see a lot of the old elite complaining about toughness and how it has ruined PvP, but it hasn't. <strong>Everyone has it so its equitable.</strong> <strong><em>What I see is that the ease of getting good pvp gear has allowed so many other classes to expand their active PvP population base.</em></strong> So aside from the old elite raiders and hardcore PvPers, that number maybe 100 people now, <strong>the server has a better chance at attracting more</strong> <strong>casual players</strong>. No one wants to get ganked, and no one will want to stick around in a game where people constantly trash talk to people that get ganked for being new and inexperienced. Expanding the player base is a lot more important than making the old elite happy; sorry to break it to you but SOE is a business. It's goals are to make money and you don't do that by catering to the smallest portion of your customer base and alienating the majority. SOE has improved the game so much for the average player, I hope we can attract new faces to Nagafen. I have already met some new people from blue servers that came to Nagafen after BGing because they saw what fun and challenge it is to fight other players. I think thats a good thing because I enjoy the game and I like meeting new people, but more importantly it will get new customers involved in the best part of the game.</p></blockquote><p>No everyone wants it.</p><p>The ease of getting pvp gear is not a good thing.. Everything is more borring when you reach the end of a goal.</p><p>What classes have expanded their pvp populations? Crusaders, Sorcs, and healers?</p><p>Casual players tend not to sitck around as long as hardcore players.. play reach goal (full pvp gear) in a week or twos time. Then it becomes log in every once in a while pvp for a short amount of time then log off. Thats the casual player. In no way should casual ever be rewarded over hardcore its just asinine.</p>

[Cataphrax]

<p><cite>Aleste wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><strong>The ease of getting pvp gear is not a good thing..</strong> Everything is more borring when you reach the end of a goal.</p><p>What classes have expanded their pvp populations? Crusaders, Sorcs, and healers?</p><p>Casual players tend not to sitck around as long as hardcore players.. play reach goal (full pvp gear) in a week or twos time. Then it becomes log in every once in a while pvp for a short amount of time then log off. Thats the casual player. In no way should casual ever be rewarded over hardcore its just asinine.</p></blockquote><p>Easy maybe but fast no not unless you already have urself geared up.</p>

[Fluffyhairball]

<p><cite>tooloose wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I have been PvPing on Nagafen since it went live, been in FPs better raid guilds and I have even had simultaneous Overseers and Generals on 3 toons. I am not claiming to be the best, not by a long shot, I am just saying that I have been around the block a few times.</p><p>Now, I see a lot of the old elite complaining about toughness and how it has ruined PvP, but it hasn't. Everyone has it so its equitable. What I see is that the ease of getting good pvp gear has allowed so many other classes to expand their active PvP population base. So aside from the old elite raiders and hardcore PvPers, that number maybe 100 people now, the server has a better chance at attracting more casual players. No one wants to get ganked, and no one will want to stick around in a game where people constantly trash talk to people that get ganked for being new and inexperienced. Expanding the player base is a lot more important than making the old elite happy; sorry to break it to you but SOE is a business. It's goals are to make money and you don't do that by catering to the smallest portion of your customer base and alienating the majority. SOE has improved the game so much for the average player, I hope we can attract new faces to Nagafen. I have already met some new people from blue servers that came to Nagafen after BGing because they saw what fun and challenge it is to fight other players. I think thats a good thing because I enjoy the game and I like meeting new people, but more importantly it will get new customers involved in the best part of the game.</p></blockquote><p>I just dont understand how old player can think the pvp is good unless he plays healer,zerg or crusader and likes the god mode. If you go out pvp in the wild you dont see much pvp anymore (wf cluster is boring i think everyone agrees on that).</p><p>I dont mean to troll here but if someone can point me out where there is pvp in the wild ill go there.</p><p>Love Fluffy</p>

[Jab]

<p>Hard to say what happend to open world pvp.</p><p>I guess the lagg,WF,BG all took their share of the playerbase away from open pvp.</p><p>About gearing up:</p><p>I think there is some misunderstandings about how fast u can get pvp gear as a relative avg player with avg play times.</p><p>It is no way near as fast as some of our diehard players who have endless time at their disposal make it out to be.</p><p>When u have 2-3 lvl 90 plus some twinks in various lvls then chances are u will be farming tokens alot faster then the avg player and as such this is ur god given right.Just like u can farm every other aspect of the game,I.E money,masters,shinies,rares,shards e.t.c</p><p>It is simply what happens when u know the game very well.</p><p>Now these ppl are often the most loudest on forum but infact they are not as many as they make them self out to be at the end of the day,hence we can not use these players as benchmarks for how fast/slow pvp gear should be obtained.</p><p>Just my 2c</p>

[max.power]

<p><cite>Jabib@Nagafen wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Hard to say what happend to open world pvp.</p><p>I guess the lagg,WF,BG all took their share of the playerbase away from open pvp.</p><p>About gearing up:</p><p>I think there is some misunderstandings about how fast u can get pvp gear as a relative avg player with avg play times.</p><p>It is no way near as fast as some of our diehard players who have endless time at their disposal make it out to be.</p><p>When u have 2-3 lvl 90 plus some twinks in various lvls then chances are u will be farming tokens alot faster then the avg player and as such this is ur god given right.Just like u can farm every other aspect of the game,I.E money,masters,shinies,rares,shards e.t.c</p><p>It is simply what happens when u know the game very well.</p><p>Now these ppl are often the most loudest on forum but infact they are not as many as they make them self out to be at the end of the day,hence we can not use these players as benchmarks for how fast/slow pvp gear should be obtained.</p><p>Just my 2c</p></blockquote><p>I agree. I'm glad that I'm not a developer because finding the balance between casual and hardcore players is the hardest thing in a MMO in my opinion. When things are too hard or take too long, the casuals won't find satisfaction and leave. When things are done within a few weeks, the hardcores get bored. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" /></p><p>In the end a company will cater to the masses, not to the loudest, although I hope that EQ2 shifts back a bit from the extreme casual system and provides more "hard" and longer lasting content in the future. If things get waaay too easy, even new players and casuals will get bored at some point.</p>

[Jab]

<p>What strikes me as funny is this,</p><p>back in the days we had ALOT of known hardcore pvpers with hundreds and sometimes thousands of extra tokens in their bank/inventory.Now according to some of our witers here that would entitle them to be boored out of their mind because they had nothing to play for.But the opposite was the truth,these ppl played everyday and thru out an entire expansion for no other eason then the joy of pvp.</p><p>Just a quick remark.</p>

[Ralpmet]

<p><cite>Jabib@Nagafen wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>What strikes me as funny is this,</p><p>back in the days we had ALOT of known hardcore pvpers with hundreds and sometimes thousands of extra tokens in their bank/inventory.Now according to some of our witers here that would entitle them to be boored out of their mind because they had nothing to play for.But the opposite was the truth,these ppl played everyday and thru out an entire expansion for no other eason then the joy of pvp.</p><p>Just a quick remark.</p></blockquote><p>Truer words were never spoken. If this wasn't the case, we wouldn't of seen so many people completely geared out at 90 right when the gear came out, and we wouldn't of seen so many people raging about the challenger sets when they came out.</p>

[Morauk]

<p>I play a healer and I think toughness broke pvp. There is also pvp in the wild, you just need to leave your guild hall to find it.</p>

[Duotang]

<p><cite>Jeht@Vox wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>i'm a noob</p><p>i summed it up for everyone</p></blockquote><p>Ok, Jeht is a noob. No surprise there. Now, to read the rest of the thread....</p>

[Duotang]

<p>I agree with the OP completely. </p><p>Heres the deal; pvp is not broke, world travel is. Just like the young generation of today, the game is coded the same way............ L-A-Z-Y!!!!! There is no open world pvp, because you can call a lear jet to basically anywhere in the game.</p><p>"I need a slurpee. Better call in the portal to 7/11"</p><p>If you idiots went out into the gorgeous world of EQ2 again, there is PLENTY of open world pvp. Questers mostly, which is kind of a shame, but pvp nonetheless. If people got out and traveled old school, there would be tons of pvp.</p><p>Toughness is not the issue, laziness is.</p>

[Ilovecows]

<p><cite>Aleste wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>tooloose wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I have been PvPing on Nagafen since it went live, been in FPs better raid guilds and I have even had simultaneous Overseers and Generals on 3 toons. I am not claiming to be the best, not by a long shot, I am just saying that I have been around the block a few times.</p><p>Now, I see a lot of the old elite complaining about toughness and how it has ruined PvP, but it hasn't. <strong>Everyone has it so its equitable.</strong> <strong><em>What I see is that the ease of getting good pvp gear has allowed so many other classes to expand their active PvP population base.</em></strong> So aside from the old elite raiders and hardcore PvPers, that number maybe 100 people now, <strong>the server has a better chance at attracting more</strong> <strong>casual players</strong>. No one wants to get ganked, and no one will want to stick around in a game where people constantly trash talk to people that get ganked for being new and inexperienced. Expanding the player base is a lot more important than making the old elite happy; sorry to break it to you but SOE is a business. It's goals are to make money and you don't do that by catering to the smallest portion of your customer base and alienating the majority. SOE has improved the game so much for the average player, I hope we can attract new faces to Nagafen. I have already met some new people from blue servers that came to Nagafen after BGing because they saw what fun and challenge it is to fight other players. I think thats a good thing because I enjoy the game and I like meeting new people, but more importantly it will get new customers involved in the best part of the game.</p></blockquote><p>No everyone wants it.</p><p>The ease of getting pvp gear is not a good thing.. Everything is more borring when you reach the end of a goal.</p><p>What classes have expanded their pvp populations? Crusaders, Sorcs, and healers?</p><p>Casual players tend not to sitck around as long as hardcore players.. play reach goal (full pvp gear) in a week or twos time. Then it becomes log in every once in a while pvp for a short amount of time then log off. Thats the casual player. In no way should casual ever be rewarded over hardcore its just asinine.</p></blockquote><p>I'm not sure what brand new casual players you are talking about, but i am pretty sure there aren't many new players that can start their first character in the game get up to level 90 get all of their pvp gear in a couple weeks along with a descent amount of aa... please show me a brand new eq2 player who was able to do this and i will agree with you.</p>

[Taldier]

<p><cite>Ilovecows@Nagafen wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Aleste wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>No everyone wants it.</p><p>The ease of getting pvp gear is not a good thing.. Everything is more borring when you reach the end of a goal.</p><p>What classes have expanded their pvp populations? Crusaders, Sorcs, and healers?</p><p>Casual players tend not to sitck around as long as hardcore players.. play reach goal (full pvp gear) in a week or twos time. Then it becomes log in every once in a while pvp for a short amount of time then log off. Thats the casual player. In no way should casual ever be rewarded over hardcore its just asinine.</p></blockquote><p>I'm not sure what brand new casual players you are talking about, but i am pretty sure there aren't many new players that can start their first character in the game get up to level 90 get all of their pvp gear in a couple weeks along with a descent amount of aa... please show me a brand new eq2 player who was able to do this and i will agree with you.</p></blockquote><p>Really I dont see what newbie couldnt as long as they have atleast one experienced friend who plays the game.  And if you are completely incapable of making any friends you really shouldnt be playing a "massively multiplayer" game in the first place...</p><p>Obviously we can argue over what is and is not "likely" to happen, however the mere fact that it IS indeed very possible is ridiculous.</p><p>Your statement is essentially: <em>Brand new players who have never played an mmo before, who are completely anti-social, and who also lack the ability to read an online forum are very unlikely to completely max out their character in a matter of weeks.  (it may even take several months if they only hit totally random keys while running in circles) Therefore game progression should be based on these people instead of all the other customers who are not illiterate anti-social newbies.</em></p>

[Taldier]

<p><cite>Jabib@Nagafen wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>What strikes me as funny is this,</p><p>back in the days we had ALOT of known hardcore pvpers with hundreds and sometimes thousands of extra tokens in their bank/inventory.Now according to some of our witers here that would entitle them to be boored out of their mind because they had nothing to play for.But the opposite was the truth,these ppl played everyday and thru out an entire expansion for no other eason then the joy of pvp.</p><p>Just a quick remark.</p></blockquote><p>The actual combat itself used to be challenging and entertaining.</p><p>Now theyve degraded the content to a repetitve monotonous grind that never even gets you anywhere relative to anyone else because everyone becomes increasingly invincible at a nearly equal rate irregardless of relative effort.</p>

[Aleste]

<p><cite>Ilovecows@Nagafen wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Aleste wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>tooloose wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I have been PvPing on Nagafen since it went live, been in FPs better raid guilds and I have even had simultaneous Overseers and Generals on 3 toons. I am not claiming to be the best, not by a long shot, I am just saying that I have been around the block a few times.</p><p>Now, I see a lot of the old elite complaining about toughness and how it has ruined PvP, but it hasn't. <strong>Everyone has it so its equitable.</strong> <strong><em>What I see is that the ease of getting good pvp gear has allowed so many other classes to expand their active PvP population base.</em></strong> So aside from the old elite raiders and hardcore PvPers, that number maybe 100 people now, <strong>the server has a better chance at attracting more</strong> <strong>casual players</strong>. No one wants to get ganked, and no one will want to stick around in a game where people constantly trash talk to people that get ganked for being new and inexperienced. Expanding the player base is a lot more important than making the old elite happy; sorry to break it to you but SOE is a business. It's goals are to make money and you don't do that by catering to the smallest portion of your customer base and alienating the majority. SOE has improved the game so much for the average player, I hope we can attract new faces to Nagafen. I have already met some new people from blue servers that came to Nagafen after BGing because they saw what fun and challenge it is to fight other players. I think thats a good thing because I enjoy the game and I like meeting new people, but more importantly it will get new customers involved in the best part of the game.</p></blockquote><p>No everyone wants it.</p><p>The ease of getting pvp gear is not a good thing.. Everything is more borring when you reach the end of a goal.</p><p>What classes have expanded their pvp populations? Crusaders, Sorcs, and healers?</p><p>Casual players tend not to sitck around as long as hardcore players.. play reach goal (full pvp gear) in a week or twos time. Then it becomes log in every once in a while pvp for a short amount of time then log off. Thats the casual player. In no way should casual ever be rewarded over hardcore its just asinine.</p></blockquote><p>I'm not sure what brand new casual players you are talking about, but i am pretty sure there aren't many new players that can start their first character in the game get up to level 90 get all of their pvp gear in a couple weeks along with a descent amount of aa... please show me a brand new eq2 player who was able to do this and i will agree with you.</p></blockquote><p>Um any brand new casual player who can read.. If they can they most likley found there way to flames if they want to learn about their class at all. Quite easy to find out how to power level and end up with over 200aa if you can read. Or any new casual who joins a guild Im sure someone in guild will guide them in the right direction for leveling fast as a good portion of people do not want to go back and run low level crap at this point. Plus.. They joined a pvp server pvpers are (should be) good at finding the fastest route of progression.</p><p>PVP is about being at your best right? Casual and best dont belong together imo</p>

[Proud_Silence]

<p>howcome everytime i see someone say "toughness is pure evil it MUST go" it's 9 out of 10 times either Onyx or Displaced members ? /tinfoil hat off</p><p>And what's with the constant crying about how good pvp was back in EoF, KoS or ever further back ? Since then the game has evolved, stat caps are reached more easily etc. So what do you want, all procs disabled in pvp, crit and double atk lowered to 50%, no cast speed bonus on items , so you can finally pvp like "back in the good days".... jeez get a grip, pvp back then had just as many flaws as it does now.scouts burning you down without a chance to strike back, enchanters locking you down and you had like 2 sec window to pop a pot after mez is gone and before you blow up from reactives... oneshotted by Ice comets...</p><p>Everytime something is changed in pvp there instantly a stream of tears from the people fearing to loose their selfproclaimed right to have an edge over everyone else.</p><p>QQ about toughness and how no one is dieing. Then cures get changed to allow more depth in terms of when/what to cure, but omg Average Joe will still mitigate pvp dmg and high end raiding items still don't make people to semi gods - how unfair ! QQ</p>

[NolaDragon]

<p><cite>Ilovecows@Nagafen wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Aleste wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>tooloose wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I have been PvPing on Nagafen since it went live, been in FPs better raid guilds and I have even had simultaneous Overseers and Generals on 3 toons. I am not claiming to be the best, not by a long shot, I am just saying that I have been around the block a few times.</p><p>Now, I see a lot of the old elite complaining about toughness and how it has ruined PvP, but it hasn't. <strong>Everyone has it so its equitable.</strong> <strong><em>What I see is that the ease of getting good pvp gear has allowed so many other classes to expand their active PvP population base.</em></strong> So aside from the old elite raiders and hardcore PvPers, that number maybe 100 people now, <strong>the server has a better chance at attracting more</strong> <strong>casual players</strong>. No one wants to get ganked, and no one will want to stick around in a game where people constantly trash talk to people that get ganked for being new and inexperienced. Expanding the player base is a lot more important than making the old elite happy; sorry to break it to you but SOE is a business. It's goals are to make money and you don't do that by catering to the smallest portion of your customer base and alienating the majority. SOE has improved the game so much for the average player, I hope we can attract new faces to Nagafen. I have already met some new people from blue servers that came to Nagafen after BGing because they saw what fun and challenge it is to fight other players. I think thats a good thing because I enjoy the game and I like meeting new people, but more importantly it will get new customers involved in the best part of the game.</p></blockquote><p>No everyone wants it.</p><p>The ease of getting pvp gear is not a good thing.. Everything is more borring when you reach the end of a goal.</p><p>What classes have expanded their pvp populations? Crusaders, Sorcs, and healers?</p><p>Casual players tend not to sitck around as long as hardcore players.. play reach goal (full pvp gear) in a week or twos time. Then it becomes log in every once in a while pvp for a short amount of time then log off. Thats the casual player. In no way should casual ever be rewarded over hardcore its just asinine.</p></blockquote><p>I'm not sure what brand new casual players you are talking about, but i am pretty sure there aren't many new players that can start their first character in the game get up to level 90 get all of their pvp gear in a couple weeks along with a descent amount of aa... please show me a brand new eq2 player who was able to do this and i will agree with you.</p></blockquote><p>Hey Mr cowluver .... Ive got it on good authority that you aint no brand of casual player.   I mean Cheeeeze and Rice ... It took that group of 5 about 10 minutes to burn you down in EL , when they were dropping me (the healer) in about 20 sec.   I have since got mo betta gear though.</p><p>But anyways ... I think pvp is fine these days , the toughness mechanic could use some tweakin , wich im sure sony will adjust eventually.  The only absolute in this game is it will be changed.   I dont know why people start crying like this is what they'er going to have to live with for ever and ever.</p><p>The only way to go back to the "good ole days"  is for all the vetrans to up and leave ,and erase all the knowledge published by them.</p><p><a href="mailto:Mkratty@Nagafen">Mkratty@Nagafen</a></p>