auto attack is becoming way to powerful

[Davngr1]

<p><strong>COMBAT</strong></p><ul><li>The stat “Double Attack” has been changed to “Multi Attack” it now can make you attack more than twice if your percent chance is over 100%. For example, if you have 150% Multi Attack, you will now have a 100% chance to make a second attack and a 50% chance to make a third attack!</li></ul><p>  with resent auto buffs this is the last thing it needed.</p><p> something needs to done to ca's to bring them up to par with the new auto attack and something needs to be given to casters to balance dps on mobs with low avoidance.</p>

[Nevao]

<p>And here I thought the common complaint was that due to low resist rates, not having to move and other such "differences" that casters had an advantage on Live over melee...</p><p>Just goes to show what I know.</p><p>Oh wait, they do.</p>

[Davngr1]

<p>nothing goes unchecked. </p><p> this will be the second boost to auto attack leaving ca/spell centric classes behind.      this needs to be done right or it will unbalance the game.  </p><p>  you can't just uncap/change the stat, the gear potency/crit bonus values vs. DA need to be balanced as well.   </p><p>  btw i raid a melee class.  the only reason i bring up caster dps is because i don't want to get nerfed 10 times over when people finaly realize what this did.</p>

[Nevao]

<p>The problem is you're asking for adjustments on something that hasn't even been on test for 24 hours. Just how much of a DPS increase have you seen? Have you even tested it yet?</p><p>Let's get some numbers before we start just randomly changing everything in a fit of over reaction.</p>

[Davngr1]

<p><cite>Nevao wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>The problem is you're asking for adjustments on something that hasn't even been on test for 24 hours. Just how much of a DPS increase have you seen? Have you even tested it yet?</p><p>Let's get some numbers before we start just randomly changing everything in a fit of over reaction.</p></blockquote><p> you are correct i have not tested it and i will not be able to do so since my game was down for weeks last time i tried to down load test server.  </p><p>  but you can not argue the fact that this is the second boost to auto attack (first being the off hand flurry/aoe) and this game was pretty balanced between melee and caster dps before that tbh.  </p><p>   a dps class should be made on it's ca potential not auto attack.     </p><p> ca = active game play</p><p>auto attack = timing but still does not engage the player like ca's/spells do.</p><p>  that is the game play me and most people in this game want not /afk /auto 1</p>

[Exelance]

<p>I must Agree with this, Casters are going to need something.  I play as Casters most of the time with my main being a Conj.  i have seen how much dps the auto attack gives.  doubles with max DA.  and if it can go to triple attack now?  Plus Flurry?  while casters can yes.  we hit harder.  don't need to move.  (on most fights).  and can stay out. (like we have a choise)</p><p>The change to detaunts is going ot really hurt Sorcs.  they have no real hate Xfer.  hardly any dehate tools.  there int tree is worthless.  if they spec that there is no need to even use them there DPS goes down.  Evade and the like need to be a % to dehate.  maybe a buff that is a -% to hategain.</p>

[Gaige]

<p>Ya I'm not a fan of overpowered auto attack either, it takes no skill to stand there auto attacking.</p>

[Thunndar316]

<p>How would you like your spells to say "must be behind or flanking"</p>

[Aule]

Getting overpowered? It got became overpowered during ROK.

[Gungo]

<p><cite>Exelance@Butcherblock wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I must Agree with this, Casters are going to need something.  I play as Casters most of the time with my main being a Conj.  i have seen how much dps the auto attack gives.  doubles with max DA.  and if it can go to triple attack now?  Plus Flurry?  while casters can yes.  we hit harder.  don't need to move.  (on most fights).  and can stay out. (like we have a choise)</p><p>The change to detaunts is going ot really hurt Sorcs.  they have no real hate Xfer.  hardly any dehate tools.  there int tree is worthless.  if they spec that there is no need to even use them there DPS goes down.  Evade and the like need to be a % to dehate.  maybe a buff that is a -% to hategain.</p></blockquote><p>Change to detaunts is PVP ONLY</p>

[Hikinami]

<p>Usually a caster is behind and flanking anyway!</p>

[Nevao]

<p>I don't entirely buy the argument that auto attack equals little skill, there is the positioning and timing issues.  The latter not as big a deal by the time you get serious about raiding, the former it all depends on the mob. Knockback craziness, porting or high avoidance mobs have a disporportional affect on melee classes.</p><p>In all fairness that has not been nearly the problem this expansion that it was last expansion, but you get my point. All it takes is Raid dev getting a wild hair and that supposed advantage is gone.</p><p>That said, I can see several of the points being made before we start changing CA's I think they should look at the Multi Attack change first. Maybe scale it so that instead of 1 point to get triple attack change it to 2 point past 100 to get 1 point of triple. That way it's still useful, but the effect doesn't scale quite as much.</p>

[Davngr1]

<p><cite>Nevao wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I don't entirely buy the argument that auto attack equals little skill, there is the positioning and timing issues.  The latter not as big a deal by the time you get serious about raiding, the former it all depends on the mob. Knockback craziness, porting or high avoidance mobs have a disporportional affect on melee classes.</p><p>In all fairness that has not been nearly the problem this expansion that it was last expansion, but you get my point. All it takes is Raid dev getting a wild hair and that supposed advantage is gone.</p><p>That said, I can see several of the points being made before we start changing CA's I think they should look at the Multi Attack change first. Maybe scale it so that instead of 1 point to get triple attack change it to 2 point past 100 to get 1 point of triple. That way it's still useful, but the effect doesn't scale quite as much.</p></blockquote><p>timing auto attack isin't hard what so ever, specially now tht everyone can get the auto attack bar.</p><p>  and yes the problem is that this will over power auto attack and you will see more high avoidance mobs to counter balance.     this is not what the game needs the game is pretty balanced as is.    </p><p> auto attack offers a lazy play style and gives way to much dps to classes that simply aren't suppose to have it.  give dps classes a boost to ca/spells to counter balance this overpowering of auto attack or at least adjust potency so it's more readily available.</p>

[wayfaerer]

<p>All in all I think this is a good thing. We need scaling stats.</p><p>It definitely needs to be balanced and that's what test server is for. I hope it doesn't just go live without some kind of balancing work because it seems like casters are really getting robbed. Even before the offhand flurry/ae attack buff our melee classes were damaging on par with our caster dps.</p><p>I'm not in a high end raid guild so I don't know what it's like there but for some classes especially rogues/fighters who get a lot of DA on gear, they should be way over the DA cap at the moment if they're one of the classes who gets a lot of DA from AA.</p><p>It's possible this is just being put on test so they can work out how to balance gear for the next xpac.</p>

[Nevao]

<p><cite>Davngr1 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Nevao wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I don't entirely buy the argument that auto attack equals little skill, there is the positioning and timing issues.  The latter not as big a deal by the time you get serious about raiding, the former it all depends on the mob. Knockback craziness, porting or high avoidance mobs have a disporportional affect on melee classes.</p><p>In all fairness that has not been nearly the problem this expansion that it was last expansion, but you get my point. All it takes is Raid dev getting a wild hair and that supposed advantage is gone.</p><p>That said, I can see several of the points being made before we start changing CA's I think they should look at the Multi Attack change first. Maybe scale it so that instead of 1 point to get triple attack change it to 2 point past 100 to get 1 point of triple. That way it's still useful, but the effect doesn't scale quite as much.</p></blockquote><p>timing auto attack isin't hard what so ever, specially now tht everyone can get the auto attack bar.</p><p>  and yes the problem is that this will over power auto attack and you will see more high avoidance mobs to counter balance.     this is not what the game needs the game is pretty balanced as is.    </p><p> auto attack offers a lazy play style and gives way to much dps to classes that simply aren't suppose to have it.  give dps classes a boost to ca/spells to counter balance this overpowering of auto attack or at least adjust potency so it's more readily available.</p></blockquote><p>Meh, I forgot from Flames that arguing with you is just going to be an excercise in beating head against wall as you continue to repeat yourself over and over again stating personal opinion as THE ONLY TRUTH. Guess we'll just have to see how it goes, but I would like to see some actual test numbers before they turn all things upside their heads.</p>

[Davngr1]

<p><cite>Nevao wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Davngr1 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Nevao wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I don't entirely buy the argument that auto attack equals little skill, there is the positioning and timing issues.  The latter not as big a deal by the time you get serious about raiding, the former it all depends on the mob. Knockback craziness, porting or high avoidance mobs have a disporportional affect on melee classes.</p><p>In all fairness that has not been nearly the problem this expansion that it was last expansion, but you get my point. All it takes is Raid dev getting a wild hair and that supposed advantage is gone.</p><p>That said, I can see several of the points being made before we start changing CA's I think they should look at the Multi Attack change first. Maybe scale it so that instead of 1 point to get triple attack change it to 2 point past 100 to get 1 point of triple. That way it's still useful, but the effect doesn't scale quite as much.</p></blockquote><p>timing auto attack isin't hard what so ever, specially now tht everyone can get the auto attack bar.</p><p>  and yes the problem is that this will over power auto attack and you will see more high avoidance mobs to counter balance.     this is not what the game needs the game is pretty balanced as is.    </p><p> auto attack offers a lazy play style and gives way to much dps to classes that simply aren't suppose to have it.  give dps classes a boost to ca/spells to counter balance this overpowering of auto attack or at least adjust potency so it's more readily available.</p></blockquote><p>Meh, I forgot from Flames that arguing with you is just going to be an excercise in beating head against wall as you continue to repeat yourself over and over again stating personal opinion as THE ONLY TRUTH. Guess we'll just have to see how it goes, but I would like to see some actual test numbers before they turn all things upside their heads.</p></blockquote><p> the fact still stands.  this is the second boost to the autoattack mechanic that was all ready balanced well with ca's and spells.</p><p>  nothing is for free everything comes at a price of balance and i don't like where this might end up going.</p>

[Neiloch]

<p>Probably going to be balanced with CA/Spell damage boost in the xpac from w/e Velious AA's and equipment they decide to put in. Plus this is a lot of base mechanic stuff that should go in at one point or another.</p><p>IF they don't plan on upping ability damage in the xpac than yes I agree, these auto attack boosts are too much.</p>

[lollipop]

<p>test more cry less. We have tested this today. I play melee and signifficant other caster. In raids casters have been doing more dps then alot of our melee. With 147DA it will bring some melee a little closer.</p><p>Changes look good so far, I am happy to see sony working hard at things.</p>

[wayfaerer]

<p><cite>lollipop wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>test more cry less. We have tested this today. I play melee and signifficant other caster. In raids casters have been doing more dps then alot of our melee. With 147DA it will bring some melee a little closer.</p><p>Changes look good so far, I am happy to see sony working hard at things.</p></blockquote><p>While I agree with you in principal, I have to ask what casters have been doing more dps than what melee? Are your melee lacking dirge/enchanter or are they undergeared?</p>

[Davngr1]

<p><cite>lollipop wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>test more cry less. We have tested this today. I play melee and signifficant other caster. In raids casters have been doing more dps then alot of our melee. With 147DA it will bring some melee a little closer.</p><p>Changes look good so far, I am happy to see sony working hard at things.</p></blockquote><p> lol</p><p> what mobs are you raiding?   because casters seem to pull ahead on high avoidance mobs and guess what making scouts even more dependent on auto attack will do?   drop their dps even lower on highe avoidance mobs that will more then likely gain more avoidance to balance out all this added auto attack damage.  </p><p>  you can't just boost auto attack this much with out giving ca's/spells a boost as well.</p><p> this was a needed change but there needs to be some type of ca's/spells boost for the sake of balance.</p>

[Rahatmattata]

<p>Does these mean guardians would have been better off keeping the 9% double attack in their eof tree that got <span style="text-decoration: line-through;">nerfed</span> changed to 3% flurry? <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" /></p>

[Aule]

<p><cite>Rahatmattata wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Does these mean guardians would have been better off keeping the 9% double attack in their eof tree that got <span style="text-decoration: line-through;">nerfed</span> changed to 3% flurry? <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" /></p></blockquote><p>100 swings, 100% da, 3% flurry</p><p>100% of them will hit an extra time3% of them will hit an average of 3 additional times209 swings total</p><p>100 swings, 109% da, 0% flurry</p><p>100% of them will hit an extra time9% of them will hit a third extra time209 swings total</p><p>Yay for math.</p>

[Krilinye]

<p>Anyone had a chance to test 2 handers vs. DW with 150% DA?</p><p>Now when you can have your offhand DA on each attack as well as your mainhand, i could easily see this as the end of 2 handing.</p><p>My monk has the Yuri, and they are pretty close in dps, but the yuri is just that little bit better in grps, would hate to have to go back to DW <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

[Ocello]

<p><cite>Aule@Guk wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Rahatmattata wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Does these mean guardians would have been better off keeping the 9% double attack in their eof tree that got <span style="text-decoration: line-through;">nerfed</span> changed to 3% flurry? <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" /></p></blockquote><p>100 swings, 100% da, 3% flurry</p><p>100% of them will hit an extra time3% of them will hit an average of 3 additional times209 swings total</p><p>100 swings, 109% da, 0% flurry</p><p>100% of them will hit an extra time9% of them will hit a third extra time209 swings total</p><p>Yay for math.</p></blockquote><p>Math pwnage.</p>

[Tyrus Dracofire]

<p>i dont think it was that powerful...</p><p>i hate to get my mana power drained unexpected, melee was the other option.</p>

[Uwopo]

<p><cite>Krilinye wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Anyone had a chance to test 2 handers vs. DW with 150% DA?</p><p>Now when you can have your offhand DA on each attack as well as your mainhand, i could easily see this as the end of 2 handing.</p><p>My monk has the Yuri, and they are pretty close in dps, but the yuri is just that little bit better in grps, would hate to have to go back to DW <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" /></p></blockquote><p>It shouldn't change anything.  If the 2H is already higher DPS than the 2 1H weapons, then the balance should remain the same, unless you're gaining a ton of DA with the 1Hs that you're not getting with the 2H.</p>

[JoarAddam]

<p>how many people really have 150% da?</p>

[jjlo69]

<p><cite>JoarAddam wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>how many people really have 150% da?</p></blockquote><p>i know of a few that do but with the log change for multi attack i was not able to tell as of late last night what kind of DPS increase i was looking at so until act gets updated itll be a wait and see</p><p>Uncle</p>

[Gaige]

<p><cite>Neiloch@Kithicor wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Probably going to be balanced with CA/Spell damage boost in the xpac from w/e Velious AA's and equipment they decide to put in. Plus this is a lot of base mechanic stuff that should go in at one point or another.</p><p>IF they don't plan on upping ability damage in the xpac than yes I agree, these auto attack boosts are too much.</p></blockquote><p>Past expansions have shown they never plan ahead.</p>

[S_M_I_T_E]

<p><cite>Davngr1 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>nothing goes unchecked. </p><p> this will be the second boost to auto attack leaving ca/spell centric classes behind.      this needs to be done right or it will unbalance the game.  </p><p>  you can't just uncap/change the stat, the gear potency/crit bonus values vs. DA need to be balanced as well.   </p><p>  btw i raid a melee class.  the only reason i bring up caster dps is because i don't want to get nerfed 10 times over when people finaly realize what this did.</p></blockquote><p>I agree, but I gotta say WOW I can't believe they finally did it (Triple attack etc.) ! Many have been suggesting this for years!!</p><p>Now, if there was <em>some way to tune </em>some <em>caster DPS</em> <em>to match this </em><strong>before letting this Multi-attack on live</strong> for 6 months alienating all non-melees this will be an awesome change....</p><p>I also hope they check out procs, flurry, etc. an other<em> unintended consequences</em> of that 3rd or future 4th autoattack as we go forward rather than let players be happy being OP for some time then threatening to /ragequit if they get nerfed...</p>

[JoarAddam]

<p>For locked Dual Wield toons there are a few tiers where you're better off with a pair of a certain treasured weapon and just not using most of your ca's now...  the t6 one is just nifty...  I can't wait.</p>

[Striikor]

<p><cite>Davngr1 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>  you can't just boost auto attack this much with out giving ca's/spells a boost as well.</p><p> this was a needed change but there needs to be some type of ca's/spells boost for the sake of balance.</p></blockquote><p>I agree in part that all this is a bit premature, there are not many who can reach 150% DA. A lot are going to be over 100% to be sure but the amount will vary significantly. So say a 15% chance for an extra or 3rd attack in many cases.... meh.</p><p>As to the more recent changes .... those have been a long long time coming and were more mechanics oriented in my view and did not nor were intended to achieve balance.</p><p>I have to agree with Davngr, and hope this will also entail some adjustments in spell and ca in the appropriate areas and amounts to improve balance.</p>

[Chunkaliscious]

<p>Cant wait to see the super ultra multi attacking proc from hell one-shot in PvP, that should get some people raging,QQing and slathering at the mouth.</p>

[Shotneedle]

<p>Speaking from a scout perspective.</p><p>If people managed to get 200% DA:</p><p>Troubs gain 5k dps</p><p>Swashs gain 6k dps</p><p>Brigs gain 6k dps</p><p>Rangers gain 6-8k dps idk?</p><p>Dirges gain 8k dps</p><p>Assassins gain 8k dps</p><p>Troubs will become on par with chanters, Swashes and Brigs will be closer to being on par/be on par with t2 mage dps (summoners), Rangers still nobody cares about, Dirges will be 5-10k above chanters, Assassins will be slightly ahead of/ on par with Wizards. TBH to me it seems like the scouts are finally getting the boost they need to be on par with their mage counterparts. Now Warlocks and Necromancers (and the other Mages I guess) need something that stop all their dots from being dispelled/give dots full benefit from spell double attack and it'd be great.</p><p>Also yay for Sony raising my dirge's auto attack dps from 35-40% back to 55-60%.</p>

[Hellswrath]

<p><cite>Buffrat@Unrest wrote:</cite></p><blockquote>Now Warlocks and Necromancers (and the other Mages I guess) need something that stop all their dots from being dispelled/give dots full benefit from spell double attack and it'd be great.</blockquote><p>This.</p><p>Especially since I'm guessing they will add more SDA to compensate this coming expansion.</p>

[Yimway]

<p>I agree with the general consensus that dps should be about buttons you press and not about when you don't press buttons.</p><p>Passive components of gameplay should be minimized, not given even more emphasis.</p><p>You guys on the SOE design team need to stop and ask yourself on each change if a given change is increasing character effectiveness passively or requiring conscious decision making.   If there isn't decision making involved, ask yourself again, is this the right decision?</p><p>Passively weighted mechanics over-reward having an item vs actually having a skill component in game.  It becomes far more about what you have than who you are.  In my opinion, it is crappy game design.</p>

[Gungo]

<p>Where do people get the idea button mashing is challenging gameplay?</p>

[bunnybuttonnose]

<p><cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I agree with the general consensus that dps should be about buttons you press and not about when you don't press buttons.</p><p>Passive components of gameplay should be minimized, not given even more emphasis.</p><p>You guys on the SOE design team need to stop and ask yourself on each change if a given change is increasing character effectiveness passively or requiring conscious decision making.   If there isn't decision making involved, ask yourself again, is this the right decision?</p><p>Passively weighted mechanics over-reward having an item vs actually having a skill component in game.  It becomes far more about what you have than who you are.  In my opinion, it is crappy game design.</p></blockquote><p>your opinion not everyones and not mine. And button pushing is not challenging game play.</p>

[Faith_heals]

<p><cite>bunnybuttonnose wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I agree with the general consensus that dps should be about buttons you press and not about when you don't press buttons.</p><p>Passive components of gameplay should be minimized, not given even more emphasis.</p><p>You guys on the SOE design team need to stop and ask yourself on each change if a given change is increasing character effectiveness passively or requiring conscious decision making.   If there isn't decision making involved, ask yourself again, is this the right decision?</p><p>Passively weighted mechanics over-reward having an item vs actually having a skill component in game.  It becomes far more about what you have than who you are.  In my opinion, it is crappy game design.</p></blockquote><p>your opinion not everyones and not mine. And button pushing is not challenging game play.</p></blockquote><p>+1</p>

[Faith_heals]

<p><cite>Buffrat@Unrest wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Speaking from a scout perspective.</p><p>If people managed to get 200% DA:</p><p>Troubs gain 5k dps</p><p>Swashs gain 6k dps</p><p>Brigs gain 6k dps</p><p>Rangers gain 6-8k dps idk?</p><p>Dirges gain 8k dps</p><p>Assassins gain 8k dps</p><p>Troubs will become on par with chanters, Swashes and Brigs will be closer to being on par/be on par with t2 mage dps (summoners), Rangers still nobody cares about, Dirges will be 5-10k above chanters, Assassins will be slightly ahead of/ on par with Wizards. TBH to me it seems like the scouts are finally getting the boost they need to be on par with their mage counterparts. Now Warlocks and Necromancers (and the other Mages I guess) need something that stop all their dots from being dispelled/give dots full benefit from spell double attack and it'd be great.</p><p>Also yay for Sony raising my dirge's auto attack dps from 35-40% back to 55-60%.</p></blockquote><p>Agree</p>

[Aule]

Past 100% should get a logarithmic diminishing return similar to the past 1200 stat curve.

[kiku]

<p><cite>bunnybuttonnose wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I agree with the general consensus that dps should be about buttons you press and not about when you don't press buttons.</p><p>Passive components of gameplay should be minimized, not given even more emphasis.</p><p>You guys on the SOE design team need to stop and ask yourself on each change if a given change is increasing character effectiveness passively or requiring conscious decision making.   If there isn't decision making involved, ask yourself again, is this the right decision?</p><p>Passively weighted mechanics over-reward having an item vs actually having a skill component in game.  It becomes far more about what you have than who you are.  In my opinion, it is crappy game design.</p></blockquote><p>your opinion not everyones and not mine. And button pushing is not challenging game play.</p></blockquote><p>Have to agree here.</p>

[Yimway]

<p><cite>Gungo wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Where do people get the idea button mashing is challenging gameplay?</p></blockquote><p>Tieing 70% of your damage to auto-attack is challenging?</p><p>I'm not saying the current button mashing scheme is particularly good, but ca's should be a larger component of effectiveness, and more decisions about how and when to press those ca's is better gameplay than muddflation of passive mechanics.</p>

[kiku]

<p><cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Gungo wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Where do people get the idea button mashing is challenging gameplay?</p></blockquote><p>Tieing 70% of your damage to auto-attack is challenging?</p><p>I'm not saying the current button mashing scheme is particularly good, but ca's should be a larger component of effectiveness, and more decisions about how and when to press those ca's is better gameplay than muddflation of passive mechanics.</p></blockquote><p>What he is  saying is build your toon for potency and mash all day long.</p><p>Build mine for multi and crit bonus and blend the two.</p><p>We can get to the same dps two diffrent ways. Fun for both of us. Not just fun for you or me. See options are great.</p>

[Neiloch]

<p><cite>Gaige wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Past expansions have shown they never plan ahead.</p></blockquote><p>Sure they do, they just don't foresee every possible problem that could arise after implementing them. Better they try and add this stuff now rather than on xpac release with a fuster cluck of other changes, thus clouding any issues severely.</p><p>Even if they aren't planning to increase ability damage through new AA's <em>just</em> for this, they are going to do it anyway. That is unless they make some huge effort to make all new AA's only improve auto attacks some more. Hell these changes could all be for offsetting massive improvements to ability DPS changes they have planned for Velious.</p>

[lollipop]

<p>Great change. Gives me something to look forward to now and build my toon more.</p>

[Gungo]

<p><cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Gungo wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Where do people get the idea button mashing is challenging gameplay?</p></blockquote><p>Tieing 70% of your damage to auto-attack is challenging?</p><p>I'm not saying the current button mashing scheme is particularly good, but ca's should be a larger component of effectiveness, and more decisions about how and when to press those ca's is better gameplay than muddflation of passive mechanics.</p></blockquote><p>More emphasis on which CA you press and WHEN you press would be challenging unfortunately that is NOT the current eq2 mechanic.</p><p>Right now pressing 123456789 is not challenging whatsoever. Timing auto atks with Ca's between auto atks is 100x more challenging then pressing which ever button is no longer grey. In that regard 50% dps from auto atk and 50% dps from Ca's would be IDEAL under eq2's game mechanics. Furthermore auto atk has positional requirmenets such as 3m range and frontal cone. Whereas CA's have a larger range 5m (without range increasers) and absolutely no frontal requirement.</p><p>To tell the truth positioning multile targets within an AOE auto atk is vastly more challeneging then any CA.</p>

[Aule]

<p><cite>Neiloch@Kithicor wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Gaige wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Past expansions have shown they never plan ahead.</p></blockquote><p>Sure they do, they just don't foresee every possible problem that could arise after implementing them. Better they try and add this stuff now rather than on xpac release with a fuster cluck of other changes, thus clouding any issues severely.</p><p>Even if they aren't planning to increase ability damage through new AA's <em>just</em> for this, they are going to do it anyway. That is unless they make some huge effort to make all new AA's only improve auto attacks some more. Hell these changes could all be for offsetting massive improvements to ability DPS changes they have planned for Velious.</p></blockquote><p>If they actually planned ahead we wouldn't have a combat overhaul and/or significant class modifications every expansion.  It's not that they just don't forsee every possible problem.  It's that if they do look ahead, it's not very far down the line.</p><p>It certainly is NOT anything on the lines like:Double attack timeline:- RoK, maximum obtainable through gear, buffs and procs 35%- TSO, maximum obtainable through gear, buffs and procs 80%- SF, maximum obtainable through gear, buffs and procs 110%</p><p>It was more like:- RoK, maximum obtainable through gear buffs and procs 120%- TSO, um, [Removed for Content], let's come up with some new mechanic- SF, dang, we need to do it again</p><p>And then interrupt things periodically with a "wow, we had no idea things would get this overpowered, let's nerf stuff"</p>

[Kordran]

<p><cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite></p><blockquote>Passively weighted mechanics over-reward having an item vs actually having a skill component in game.  It becomes far more about what you have than who you are.  In my opinion, it is crappy game design.</blockquote><p>Let's be honest though, this has always been a gear-centric game and "what you have" has been the most essential part of your performance. You can be the most awesome button pusher in the world, but your gear will always be the overriding factor in terms of your overall performance. Skill really only comes into play on the margins; it makes the difference in inches, not miles.</p>

[Yimway]

<p><cite>Gungo wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>More emphasis on which CA you press and WHEN you press would be challenging unfortunately that is NOT the current eq2 mechanic.</p><p>Right now pressing 123456789 is not challenging whatsoever.</p><p>To tell the truth positioning multile targets within an AOE auto atk is vastly more challeneging then any CA.</p></blockquote><p>Oh, I agree 100%, but when they make changes, I'd rather see efforts put into building a challenging mechanic than muddflation of passive abilities.</p><p>The longer this game goes on, the more it seems to return to EQ1 to me.</p>

[lollipop]

<p><cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Gungo wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>More emphasis on which CA you press and WHEN you press would be challenging unfortunately that is NOT the current eq2 mechanic.</p><p>Right now pressing 123456789 is not challenging whatsoever.</p><p>To tell the truth positioning multile targets within an AOE auto atk is vastly more challeneging then any CA.</p></blockquote><p>Oh, I agree 100%, but when they make changes, I'd rather see efforts put into building a challenging mechanic than muddflation of passive abilities.</p><p>The longer this game goes on, the more it seems to return to EQ1 to me.</p></blockquote><p>I loved eq1. Played it for years. It was a great game. I think it has about the same population as eq2 atm to. Though most people play on FV server.</p><p>Also if dont like it thier are some other games are coming out. To be honest after seeing you post on almost ever subject I would even pay for your first month on another game. Hell I'll pay for two so you get nice and hooked on it.</p>

[Gaige]

<p>Standing behind a mob, turning on auto attack and scratching your butt isn't challenging in the least.  A 4 year old could do it.  At least spamming CAs requires some timing, some thought processes and some input.</p><p>SOE needs to get away from making auto attack half of a players damage ability with procs being another 25% of it so the no matter what input the player makes they only have a ~25% difference in a character's dps effectiveness.</p><p>People who want bolstered auto attack are terrible players.</p>

[Gungo]

<p><cite>Gaige wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Standing behind a mob, turning on auto attack and scratching your butt isn't challenging in the least.  A 4 year old could do it.  At least spamming CAs requires some timing, some thought processes and some input.</p><p>SOE needs to get away from making auto attack half of a players damage ability with procs being another 25% of it so the no matter what input the player makes they only have a ~25% difference in a character's dps effectiveness.</p><p>People who want bolstered auto attack are terrible players.</p></blockquote><p>You do realize the ONLY reason to time combat arts is because of AUTO ATK in the first place. If auto atk was significantly LESS dps then there would be even LESS reason to time combat arts and thus take even less skill. Sadly rolling your face across your keyboard is even less challenging then running behind a mob, turning on auto atk and jousting aoe's. Heaven forbid you actually have position yourself with AOE auto atk so you are in range of multiple targets.  </p><p>Oddly enough when people mention nerfing flurry or procs you are the first person to cry about lowering dps. I guess you are a terribad player.</p>

[Gaige]

<p><cite>Gungo wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>You do realize the ONLY reason to time combat arts is because of AUTO ATK in the first place. </p></blockquote><p>I don't recall mentioning timing auto attack in my post.  I said spamming CAs requires some timing.  As in which CA to press and when.  DPS efficiency.  What CAs to combine with what short term buffs.  What CAs to wait to cast with dispatch.  When to use abilities together to maximize their effectiveness.  Things like that.</p><p><div><p><cite>Gungo wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Oddly enough when people mention nerfing flurry or procs you are the first person to cry about lowering dps. I guess you are a terribad player.</p></blockquote><p>They can nerf flurry all they want as long as they give assassins compensation so we retain our spot on the parse.  I wouldn't care.  My toon isn't even built for auto attack anyway, its built for CA damage.  Max agility, max potency, max ability mod, etc.</p><p>Procs are interesting, that is why I don't want them nerfed.  Also, on my class, other than > 1 min encounters they don't really add up to much dps at all, so its not like some ezmode path to victory.</p><p>Sure I'm terribad, just means almost everyone else is worse.</p></div></p>

[Aull]

<p><cite>Davngr1 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Nevao wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>The problem is you're asking for adjustments on something that hasn't even been on test for 24 hours. Just how much of a DPS increase have you seen? Have you even tested it yet?</p><p>Let's get some numbers before we start just randomly changing everything in a fit of over reaction.</p></blockquote><p> you are correct i have not tested it and i will not be able to do so since my game was down for weeks last time i tried to down load test server.  </p><p>  but you can not argue the fact that this is the second boost to auto attack (first being the off hand flurry/aoe) and this game was pretty balanced between melee and caster dps before that tbh.  </p><p>   <span style="color: #00ff00; font-size: small;"><strong>a dps class should be made on it's ca potential not auto attack</strong></span>.     </p><p> ca = active game play</p><p>auto attack = timing but still does not engage the player like ca's/spells do.</p><p>  that is the game play me and most people in this game want not /afk /auto 1</p></blockquote><p>I agree. While this is on test I do think that melee classes like a zerker, swashbuckler, and monk will rule.</p><p>Combat arts will be nothing anymore. It will be focused around more haste, dps mod, and DA.</p>

[Nevao]

<p>So switching things up a bit, how many raid mobs have Double Attack natively? I need to dig through my parses to see if I can tell, but hopefully we're not going to end up with the same situation we were in when they uncapped Potency and all the sudden certain mobs' damage spiked.</p>

[Yimway]

<p><cite>Nevao wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>So switching things up a bit, how many raid mobs have Double Attack natively? I need to dig through my parses to see if I can tell, but hopefully we're not going to end up with the same situation we were in when they uncapped Potency and all the sudden certain mobs' damage spiked.</p></blockquote><p>You would need to know which have over 100 DA, which would be difficult to discern on live.</p>

[Rahatmattata]

<p><cite>Aule@Guk wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Rahatmattata wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Does these mean guardians would have been better off keeping the 9% double attack in their eof tree that got <span style="text-decoration: line-through;">nerfed</span> changed to 3% flurry? <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" /></p></blockquote><p>100 swings, 100% da, 3% flurry</p><p>100% of them will hit an extra time3% of them will hit an average of 3 additional times209 swings total</p><p>100 swings, 109% da, 0% flurry</p><p>100% of them will hit an extra time9% of them will hit a third extra time209 swings total</p><p>Yay for math.</p></blockquote><p>And in velious and beyond when everyone has 200+ double attack <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/0a4d7238daa496a758252d0a2b1a1384.gif" border="0" /></p>

[Aule]

<p><cite>Rahatmattata wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Aule@Guk wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Rahatmattata wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Does these mean guardians would have been better off keeping the 9% double attack in their eof tree that got <span style="text-decoration: line-through;">nerfed</span> changed to 3% flurry? <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" /></p></blockquote><p>100 swings, 100% da, 3% flurry</p><p>100% of them will hit an extra time3% of them will hit an average of 3 additional times209 swings total</p><p>100 swings, 109% da, 0% flurry</p><p>100% of them will hit an extra time9% of them will hit a third extra time209 swings total</p><p>Yay for math.</p></blockquote><p>And in velious and beyond when everyone has 200+ double attack <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/0a4d7238daa496a758252d0a2b1a1384.gif" border="0" /></p></blockquote><p>Okay I'll bite and do the 2nd grade math for you:</p><p>100 swings, 200% ma, 3% flurry</p><p>100% will hit an extra time100% will hit a third time3% will hit an average of 3 more times309 swings total</p><p>100 swings, 209% ma, 0% flurry</p><p>100% will hit an extra time100% will hit a third time9% will hit a 4th time309 swings total</p><p>Would you like more examples of how 1% flurry == 3% multiattack?  How about this one:</p><p>1% flurry = 3% multiattack</p>

[MurFalad]

<p><cite>Nevao wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>That said, I can see several of the points being made before we start changing CA's I think they should look at the Multi Attack change first. Maybe scale it so that instead of 1 point to get triple attack change it to 2 point past 100 to get 1 point of triple. That way it's still useful, but the effect doesn't scale quite as much.</p></blockquote><p>This would make sense bring in some diminishing returns, if auto-attack is becoming too powerful (the numbers seem crazy high on my guardian, but they're no higher then other peoples DPS) then this at least would cap its benefits.</p><p>Its also much easier to put in a diminishing return mechanic now then 3 months after the change, at which point its a given that a lot of people will be moaning about any nerf to their DPS.</p>

[MurFalad]

<p>Right now we have a simple thread the abilities between auto attack and run through the priority order.  Two options I can think of as alternatives are: </p><p>The gameplay could be changed to a cycle based one such as WoW by removing a lot of the abilities and just powering up a few massively.  That has some skill, but unless you are pushed to the hardest content you can press 1-2 buttons over and over for 80% of your DPS (easy to master, hard to stay awake? <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" />).</p><p>Or they could put shared cooldowns on certain abilities forcing the player to choose the right ability at the right time, and add in more combination attacks that work depending on what is happening to the mob you are attacking (e.g. was it knocked down?  Did that bleed debuff land? etc).  I'd like to see a lot more of this myself.</p>